A Question about Adam.....

[TheBear]

Was Adam created mortal or immortal?

[StefanM]

Mortal, with perpetual access (prior to sin) to the tree of life

[mman]

I think that he was created mortal (that is his body was mortal). Of course, the spirit is immortal.

Since he died, he was not immortal. Can something immortal be changed to something mortal. If so, then is it really immortal?

I think the key starts in Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

As long as he had access to the tree of life, he would not die, however, when that access was removed, he could not live forever, therefore, he was created mortal.

[TheBear]

He had access to the tree of life, but he never once ate of it.

Thank you for the input.

[ChurchBoy]

Originally posted by TheBear:
Was Adam created mortal or immortal? Adam was born immortal, not mortal. God's original creation was perfect. Since it was perfect there was no death. Death didn't enter the world until Adam sinned agaisnt God.

In Genesis 1:31-

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

When Eve is tempted by the serpent this is what she said, Genesis 2:2-3

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

If Adam and Eve were not immortal then eating the fruit wouldn't really matter since they will die even if they didn't eat the fruit.

God confronted Adam with this, Genesis 2:17-19

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

[Deacon]

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
(Genesis 2:16,17 NAS)

Does the death mentioned here mean a spiritual death or a physical death? (or both?)

Rob

[StefanM]

Consider this:

Eating the forbidden fruit led to their removal from the garden. The garden contained the tree of life, which was the means through which they could live forever.

Adam did not have to be inherently immortal to avoid death. Eternal life, for Adam, depended on being in good standing with God and having access to the tree of life. Once sin occurred, this access was revoked; therefore, death would come. This is why physical death did not immediately occur--the forbidden fruit did not cause physical death, removal from the tree of life did.

[StefanM]

Originally posted by TheBear:
He had access to the tree of life, but he never once ate of it.

Thank you for the input. That is speculation. The text never says one way or the other.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.
Gen 3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

This says nothing of past action, only that it was imperative that he not eat of the tree of life in the future.

He may have eaten of the tree of life, or he may not have. The text just doesn't say.

[TheBear]

Thank you all, for all the varied and insightfull input so far. graemlins/thumbs.gif smile.gif

Here's the dilema.

If Adam was created mortal, then by the very definition, there was physical death before Adam sinned against God, (the Fall).

On the other hand, if Adam was created immortal, then what would be the point, function or purpose of a tree of life?

[Marcia]

Originally posted by TheBear:


Here's the dilema.

If Adam was created mortal, then by the very definition, there was physical death before Adam sinned against God, (the Fall).

Interesting question.

Perhaps eating from the Tree of Life, as suggested by Stefan, or maybe being in the Garden, would have conferred immortality on him though he was mortal. Maybe he had a conditional immortality?

I think the death that came through sin was both spiritual and physical. Decay and physical death was the physical part, and these did not exist before the Fall.

[TheBear]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TheBear:


Here's the dilema.

If Adam was created mortal, then by the very definition, there was physical death before Adam sinned against God, (the Fall).

Interesting question.

Perhaps eating from the Tree of Life, as suggested by Stefan, or maybe being in the Garden, would have conferred immortality on him though he was mortal. Maybe he had a conditional immortality?

I think the death that came through sin was both spiritual and physical. Decay and physical death was the physical part, and these did not exist before the Fall. </font>[/QUOTE]We are exhorted to search the scriptures daily, to see if these things are true, and to test everything we hear against what scripture does say.

MMAN pointed out something I'd like us to take another look at. Genesis 3:22-24

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

To some, this is Essential Doctrine. Filling in the doctrinal blanks with a bunch of "maybes", shows an unsound doctrine. God is not the author of confusion.

This is not speculation. This is sound reasoning. Our doctrine should be sound, consistent and backed by scripture. Otherwise, we could make up all kinds of doctrine that scripture is 'silent' on.

[Alcott]

Originally posted by TheBear:
Was Adam created mortal or immortal? Not sure, but he's the only one still living while Ben, Hoss and Little Joe are all dead.

[Sularis]

He was born immortal - had no need of the tree of life - then sinned - thus mortal - then God made the comment - dang better not let Adam eat that tree or he'll live forever even in sinful state

Immortal means living forever it doesnt necessarily mean unkillable.

Just my two cents worth

[Deacon]

Adam was created with the potential for eternal life.

When he sinned, 'that very day' he died spiritually.

The separatation from the tree of life meant that given time, he would die physically too.

Rob

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Deacon:
Adam was created with the potential for eternal life.

When he sinned, 'that very day' he died spiritually.

The separatation from the tree of life meant that given time, he would die physically too.

Rob So very true.

If only more people got that basic point in Genesis!

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Sularis:
He was born immortal - had no need of the tree of life - then sinned - thus mortal - then God made the comment - dang better not let Adam eat that tree or he'll live forever even in sinful state

Immortal means living forever it doesnt necessarily mean unkillable.

Just my two cents worth That is an interesting defintion. Some people thnik that "immortal" means "unkillable even by God and the lake of fire/eternal fire/fiery hell"

However - it does appear that access to the tree of life had something to do with living forever and the tree of life does not appear to have "changed to have that function only after the fall of man".

In Christ,

Bob

[TheBear]

Immortal means - exempt from death.

[TheBear]

Originally posted by StefanM:
Consider this:

Eating the forbidden fruit led to their removal from the garden. The garden contained the tree of life, which was the means through which they could live forever.

Adam did not have to be inherently immortal to avoid death. Eternal life, for Adam, depended on being in good standing with God and having access to the tree of life. Once sin occurred, this access was revoked; therefore, death would come. This is why physical death did not immediately occur--the forbidden fruit did not cause physical death, removal from the tree of life did. (emphasis mine)


This is interesting.

Did Adam ever actually eat from the tree of life? If so, where does scripture indicate that he did? Having access to something, is not the same as actually using it.

Go to the beach some time. You will invariably see some people who do not use sun block, and are burned. Even though they have access to sun block, if the don't use it, they will burn.

[Marcia]

Posted by the Bear
To some, this is Essential Doctrine. Filling in the doctrinal blanks with a bunch of "maybes", shows an unsound doctrine. God is not the author of confusion.

This is not speculation. This is sound reasoning. Our doctrine should be sound, consistent and backed by scripture. Otherwise, we could make up all kinds of doctrine that scripture is 'silent' on.
I thought this was a discussion, not a test. :confused:

Please don't imply that I don't study the scriptures or that I have unsound doctrine. I never heard that whether Adam is mortal or immortal is part of the essential doctrine of the church. And it's not.

If you didn't want discussion and knew the answer, why did you post the question?

[StefanM]

Originally posted by TheBear:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StefanM:
Consider this:

Eating the forbidden fruit led to their removal from the garden. The garden contained the tree of life, which was the means through which they could live forever.

Adam did not have to be inherently immortal to avoid death. Eternal life, for Adam, depended on being in good standing with God and having access to the tree of life. Once sin occurred, this access was revoked; therefore, death would come. This is why physical death did not immediately occur--the forbidden fruit did not cause physical death, removal from the tree of life did. (emphasis mine)


This is interesting.

Did Adam ever actually eat from the tree of life? If so, where does scripture indicate that he did? Having access to something, is not the same as actually using it.

Go to the beach some time. You will invariably see some people who do not use sun block, and are burned. Even though they have access to sun block, if the don't use it, they will burn. </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture says nothing either way. It does not say he did eat of it, nor does it say he didn't eat of it.

Scripture does not record everything that occurs.

[TexasSky]

Since he died, and since God says the tree of life would have caused him to live forever, he hadn't eaten from the tree of life.

[TheBear]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I thought this was a discussion, not a test. :confused:

Please don't imply that I don't study the scriptures or that I have unsound doctrine. I never heard that whether Adam is mortal or immortal is part of the essential doctrine of the church. And it's not.

If you didn't want discussion and knew the answer, why did you post the question? ROTFLOL! :D

Slow down there. graemlins/wave.gif

This is not a test, and I'm not carrying the answers on a clip-board. tongue.gif

This is a serious discussion, having to do with the doctrine of the Fall. The purpose of this discussion is to take a critical look at our own beliefs and others' beliefs, with regards to this aspect of the doctrine of the Fall. It is important that we all take a critical look at all our beliefs and doctrines. Scripture exhorts us to.

You may not agree with my interpretation on this, but that's no reason for the above type remarks. I respect your views, and hopefully, you respect mine.

So, let's start fresh. smile.gif

[TheBear]

Originally posted by StefanM:
Scripture says nothing either way. It does not say he did eat of it, nor does it say he didn't eat of it.

Scripture does not record everything that occurs. I'm sorry. I'm really going to need an answer one way or another, especially since it involves the heart and soul of the major, and in my view, false doctrine of the Fall.

[hillclimber]

He was created immortal. He would have lived forever had he not eaten from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. With respect to the fruit of the tree of life, it was maybe the variety that God's goodness provided for mans thorough enjoyment. (speculation)

In any case he did not begin to die until the judgment after the fall. Only after sin entered the picture was death available.

my $.02 great exercise/question

[StefanM]

Originally posted by TheBear:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StefanM:
Scripture says nothing either way. It does not say he did eat of it, nor does it say he didn't eat of it.

Scripture does not record everything that occurs. I'm sorry. I'm really going to need an answer one way or another, especially since it involves the heart and soul of the major, and in my view, false doctrine of the Fall. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, but the text doesn't say. Ask God for the answer if you wish, but God apparently didn't want to inspire that answer into the text of Genesis.

[TheBear]

Originally posted by StefanM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TheBear:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StefanM:
Scripture says nothing either way. It does not say he did eat of it, nor does it say he didn't eat of it.

Scripture does not record everything that occurs. I'm sorry. I'm really going to need an answer one way or another, especially since it involves the heart and soul of the major, and in my view, false doctrine of the Fall. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, but the text doesn't say. Ask God for the answer if you wish, but God apparently didn't want to inspire that answer into the text of Genesis. </font>[/QUOTE]Then what establishes the doctrine of the Fall?

[Marcia]

Posted by The Bear
So, let's start fresh. Okay. :cool:

I agree with Stefan -- the Bible is not clear about the Tree of Life. All we know is that Adam and Eve were not allowed to eat from it after sinning.

As for the doctrine of the Fall, I think Gen. 3 and Rom. 5 covers it -- sin brought separation from God, and brought death and decay into the world.

Since our bodies are called corruptible in 1 Cor. 15 and the resurrection of Christ means we will have new bodies, incorruptible, I think part of the death from the Fall is physical death.

[TheBear]

Scripture never once states that all life was originally created immortal, not even Adam. (Genesis 2:7 comes to mind. smile.gif )

[BobRyan]

Gen 3
22 Then the LORD God said, ""Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever''

This is the history of what the Bible calls "mortal man". It begins with creation and then because of denied access to the tree of life - the FIRST of mankind - (from the very start) is NOT going to "live forever" without the Gospel of salvation!

But still -- mankind is "mortal".

Job 10:5 NKJV
5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man?

Ps 146:3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

Ps 22
29All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.

So WHEN will this Mortal put on IMMORTALITY?

1Cor 15
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

So the Bible clearly teaches - mankind IS MORTAL -

But it can also be said that we are made in the image of God. NOT that we can CREATE matter like God or SPEAK worlds into existence like God or raise the dead like God or make our soul immortal -- but we can choose to do good to be faithful, to be just, to be merciful and loving and even to express independant thought -- like God.

In Christ,

Bob

[Marcia]

I came across this the other day - it's a commentary on immortality and man. I wanted to post it but I lost it and finally found it again! This is just an excerpt. I am not necessarily agreeing with it, but thought it would be of interest since it is on topic.


Therefore, according to the Bible, humanity is not immortal by nature. The human soul, or spirit, survives death, but the body does not. Immortality is achieved when the body of the believer is raised and transformed and then united with the soul.

Immortal Inheritance
Christians have an immortal inheritance awaiting them.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you (1 Peter 1:3,4).

Not The Same Thing As Resurrection
Immortality is not the same thing as resurrection. Immorality occurs at the resurrection when the believer receives a new body from the Lord.

Not The Same As Eternal Life
Immortality is not the same as eternal life. Believers receive eternal life the moment they trust Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (John 17:3).

Eternal life consists of a relationship with a person - Jesus Christ.

Differences
We can sum up the difference between the immortality of God and of humans as follows. Immortality is basic to the nature of God, not humanity. God is immortal, those humans who believe God's promises have immortality. God is immortal in His essence, believers have a derived immortality. God had no beginning or end. Believing humans had a beginning but will have no end.

What About Unbelievers?
If only believers have immortality, what can we conclude about the state of unbelievers? Scripture says that unbelievers will exist forever, but they will exist apart from the life of God. They do not have immortality in the biblical sense. Immortality consists of eternal life in Jesus Christ. Unbelievers have no such life, so they are not immortal according to the biblical understanding of the term.
http://blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/103.html

[Marcia]

This is their summary:
Only God is immortal, or deathless, by nature. The Lord, however, imparts immortality to those who believe in Jesus. At His coming, believers will receive a glorified, immortal body that will be united with their spirit. Immortality is not the same as eternal life. Eternal life is received the moment a person trusts Christ, while immortality occurs at the resurrection of the body. Although unbelievers will exist forever, they are cut off from the life of God, and do not have immortality in the biblical sense. According to the Bible, immortality is more than eternal existence.

[TheBear]

I want to take a moment to thank you all, for the in-depth and thoughtful contributions to this discussion so far. graemlins/wave.gif

[Nevertheless]

My opinion is that Adam and Eve were created neither mortal nor immortal, but rather with the ability to choose either. The events in the garden are not just about disobedience and sin entering the world, though that is certainly the main theme.

I think that Adam and Eve did more than just to choose to eat from the tree of knowledge. They chose it instead of the tree of life. I think that if they had refused to eat from the tree of knowledge and ate from the tree of life they would have then been immortal.

They could not choose both, and that is why they were banned from the garden.

[BobRyan]

Scripture says that unbelievers will exist forever,I find no scritpures saying that man is immortal, that we have an immortal soul OR that the wicked live for ever, sin foerver, curse God forever etc.

In Matt 10 we find that God is the one who "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

I think this is an accurate text.

In Christ,

Bob

[TexasSky]

WHen he is expelled from the Garden God says, "lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever." That implies to me that he did not have eternal life.

I interpret the story to be that he had access to the tree of life, and was going to be given immortality, but he blew it, and God prevented him from having it.