Joel Osteen Denies Christ on National TV

[Ben W]

Sad!

http://apostasywatch.com/_wsn/page4.html

[BobRyan]

I have to agree - he is just saying what "he feels the audience wants to hear".

He feels Larry King's need not to be judgmental or insist that Christ is the only way to heaven - so he goes there!

He feels the caller's need to say that Jesus is the only way truth and light -- so he goes there.

He is not comfortable saying "you are wrong" in a context where it means that the person he is saying it to - will not pay any money if they hear him say that.

I am one who believes that the Holy Spirit works as described in John 16 and John 12:32 and Romans 2:13-16 on all people -- even non-Christians. But there is a big difference between that and hedging like Joel was doing.

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

I new there was something not quite right with him the first time I heard him preach. It didn't sit well within my spirit. Joel is not the first preacher to dodge Larry Kings blunt questions. He had some catholic priest on as well a few years back who pretty much said what Joel says. Satan wants to unite the world and the Word of Christ divides it. We can see who's side Joel is on no matter if he feels in his heart he is being kind. He is actually being cruel by withholding the pure word of the Lord. I wonder how all of those who end up in hell will praise his kind words then.

God Bless!

[ccrobinson]

Flip-flop-flip-flop

This was an interesting exchange.

KING: But for someone who doesn't share it is wrong, isn't he?

OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let god be the judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.


I didn't see the interview, but Joel initially answers the way he probably really feels, which happens to be the truth as well. It seems that he then catches himself and realizes that he just alienated more than half of the listeners and tries to backtrack. Of course, that wishy-washy style wasn't much of a match for Larry King. Larry smelled blood in the water, so to speak, and went after it, making Joel look silly because he wouldn't take a solid stand for anything.

[billwald]

First time I have agreed with Osteen. God can "save" anyone "in" Christ Jesus.

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ccrobinson:
Flip-flop-flip-flop

This was an interesting exchange.

KING: But for someone who doesn't share it is wrong, isn't he?

OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let god be the judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.


I didn't see the interview, but Joel initially answers the way he probably really feels, which happens to be the truth as well. It seems that he then catches himself and realizes that he just alienated more than half of the listeners and tries to backtrack. Of course, that wishy-washy style wasn't much of a match for Larry King. Larry smelled blood in the water, so to speak, and went after it, making Joel look silly because he wouldn't take a solid stand for anything. Indeed Joel's overriding "core value" was coming out at the expense of looking foolish. His prime directive is "please all".

The crowd he speaks to on Sunday has s certain list of "Things" that he can "preach against" and also "preach in favor of" and still get moneyu from them. He knows exactly what that list is.

But the list for Larry King's audience is "very different" and Larry was trying to push Joel to a sticky point where Joel would have to choose between the prime directive of "lose no money opportunity in what you say" vs ???.

The problem is that if Joel opts to "only please Larry's audience dollars" then his own followers might withhold cash. If he opts to only please his core base - then he misses out on raking in a share of Larry's vast market.

He was truly in a tight spot. No wonder he was conflicted about what POV to actually stick with!!

In Christ,

Bob

[D28guy]

Very disappointing indeed.

And equally sad is that Billy Graham was on Larry Kings program 3-4 years ago and did the very same thing. When asked about those...hindus, buddhists, etc...who reject Christ brother Graham said something to the effect that "I cant judge their hearts or declare them lost. I'll let God do that."

I remember it specifically because of how shocked I was.

I'd like to give both of these brothers the benefit of the doubt and say that I hope what they mean is that we cant see whether any of these people who haved rejected Christ might...in their heart...surrender to Christ on their deathbeds in the moments just prior to dying.

I hope that is what they mean...but I agree completly that the proper thing to say on national TV is that Christ is the only hope, and if you reject him you have rejected the possibility for salvation.

In a similar vein, Graham...who was very strong against Catholicism in his early years...has done a flip flop in his late years and declared Pope John Paul II a great spiritual leader and said very positive things about Catholicism.

Again...very disappointing.

However, having said that it was still a great thrill to attend a Crusade of Grahams 4-5 years ago. The annointing on Graham and in that stadium as he proclaimed the gospel that night was very discernable and very strong.

God bless,

Mike

[Jim1999]

So, who is Joel Osteen? Never heard of him. Is he a new "saviour of Christianity?" Is he another preacher we have put on a pedestal only to be disappointed?

When will we stop worrying about these little gods and just get about the work God has given us to do in our own little circle?

Cheers,

Jim

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
So, who is Joel Osteen? Never heard of him. Is he a new "saviour of Christianity?" Is he another preacher we have put on a pedestal only to be disappointed?

Osteen is the pastor of the largest church in the U.S., Lakewood Church in TX. He is becoming very popular, especially since his book, Your Best Life Now just came out and is doing good.

Osteen is Word Faith and also teaches New Thought principles -- you must think positive and say things positive or bad things will happen to you. He says in his book that you must declare blessings out loud in order to get them. This is all Word Faith (which has a lot in common with New Thought. New Thought gave rise to Christian Science, Unity, and Church of Religions Science as well as various mind science groups).

Osteen also has taught that Jesus had to go to hell and fight Satan in order to "win" over Satan. This is also taught by Copeland and other WF teachers.

The problems is that Osteen is a smooth talker and makes people feel good. Christians left and right are falling for him.

[BobRyan]

Do you have any "win over satan" quotes from him?

[Jim1999]

Just as I thought. Another bloke not worth the time of day let alone a discussion in here. I have more important things to do, such as weed my garden.

Cheers,


Jim

Thanks Marcia

[Ben W]

The problem is Jim, this guy has masses of amounts of money to buy airtime on TV, no doubt he does Evangalise, yet a number of his people that he targets to give him more money and become his supporters are Baptist or other evangelical Christians.

Like a Cancer the Word of Faith teachings spread!!!

As Baptists, we are the last group that really have the ability to be able to do something about the Word of Faith movment, it has overtaken a number of Pentecostal Fellowships, and a number of the once vibrant Chiristian churches have fallen asleep.

John Ankerberg has a standing invitation for any one involved in the Word of Faith movement to come onto his discernment show and answer questions from Scripture on its teachings. Hinn, Copeland, Hagin, all have refused for good reason. That they would be exposed by someone who they would struggle to discredit.

Joel Osteen has a problem now though, because even the blind that follow after the WOF garbage are aware that there are not multiple ways to God. I hope that the Lord will open many peoples eyes through this current situation.

[Ben W]

Just to add, that I think that Joel Osteen should go on the Ankerberg Show, I went to his website with the intention of emailing him exactly what I thought about the interview on Larry King to discover that a number of people have been their first and done so. He has printed a full retraction, which suggests to me that we should be praying for Joel Osteen to recant also the Word of Faith teachings, if he is man enough to admit that he is wrong here, I think there is a chance he could turn away from WOF also.

Anyway here is his letter from his website,

- Dear Friend,*

Many*of you*have called, written or e-mailed*regarding my recent appearance on Larry King Live.* I appreciate your comments and value your words of correction and encouragement.

It was never my desire or intention to leave any doubt as to what I believe and Whom I serve.* I believe with all my heart that it is only through Christ that we have hope in eternal life.* I regret that I was unclear on the very thing in which I have dedicated my life.

Jesus declared in John 14; I am the way, the truth and the life.* No one comes to the Father but by me.** I believe that Jesus Christ alone is the way to salvation.* However, it wasn’t until I had the opportunity to review the transcript of the interview that I realize I had not clearly stated that having a personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven.* It’s about the individual’s choice to follow Him.

God has given me a platform to present the Gospel to a very diverse audience.* In my desire not to alienate the people that Jesus came to save, I did not clearly communicate the convictions that I hold so precious.

I will use this as a learning experience and believe that God will ultimately use it for my good and His glory. I am comforted by the fact that He sees my heart and knows my intentions.* I am so thankful that I have friends, like you, who are willing to share their concerns with me.

Thank*you again*to those who have written. I hope that you will see it in your heart to extend to me His grace and your forgiveness.*

As always, I covet your prayers and I am believing for God’s best in your life,

Joel Osteen
Pastor - Lakewood Church

http://www.joelosteen.com/site/PageServer?pagename=LarryKingLetter

[Rhetorician]

Hey all,

I have been away on a mission's trip to MT and WA for a few weeks.

Concerning Joel Osteen:

I heard him on Larry King while I was out of town. (We don't have cable TV and I always serf the channels when out-of-town).

Firstt, he does not say anything that is "offenseive." He does not talk about "sin" or "judgment" or such. Jesus and Paul both talked about "the Cross of Christ" being an offense or a "stone of stumbling" to them which are in (or of) this world.

Second, Paul the Apostle said he preached "the whole council of God." Joel seems to be holding back somewhat.

Third, he seems to portray that there is some good in each of his hearers. Does the Scripture not say that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked--who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). Talk about leaving the Biblical Doctrine of Depravity behind?

Fourth, although he does use Scripture; it is for his own purposes. His prime purpose being a "psychological 'Gospel'" rather than a full-blown Gospel

Fifth, it seems to me that the preaching of "The Law" is what is required to get men "lost" before you preach "The Good News" in order for them to be "saved." What is gotten from Osteen could just as easily be found on the psychiatrist's or psychologist's couch or so it appears to me.

My two cents worth!

sdg!

rd

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
Hey all,

I have been away on a mission's trip to MT and WA for a few weeks.

Concerning Joel Osteen:

I heard him on Larry King while I was out of town. (We don't have cable TV and I always serf the channels when out-of-town).

Firstt, he does not say anything that is "offenseive." He does not talk about "sin" or "judgment" or such. Jesus and Paul both talked about "the Cross of Christ" being an offense or a "stone of stumbling" to them which are in (or of) this world.

Second, Paul the Apostle said he preached "the whole council of God." Joel seems to be holding back somewhat.

Third, he seems to portray that there is some good in each of his hearers. Does the Scripture not say that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked--who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). Talk about leaving the Biblical Doctrine of Depravity behind?

Fourth, although he does use Scripture; it is for his own purposes. His prime purpose being a "psychological 'Gospel'" rather than a full-blown Gospel

Fifth, it seems to me that the preaching of "The Law" is what is required to get men "lost" before you preach "The Good News" in order for them to be "saved." What is gotten from Osteen could just as easily be found on the psychiatrist's or psychologist's couch or so it appears to me.

My two cents worth!

sdg!

rd I wondered if he ever preached about sin or how we are all sinners that need Jesus and all.
I don't know much about him really. Surfing the tv myself I saw him for a few minutes and didn't care for it so I kept going.

He is getting more and more popular with everyone so I thought about checking him out. I hear all the time how great he is and that right there concerns me.

Just last week a Christian woman asked on another board if we have heard about him because her husband (an unbeliever) really enjoys his sermons. That's the only preacher he will listen to. So I told her you might want to be cautious there if an unbeliever likes the sermons. And check him out and see what he believes and teaches. I don't think she liked hearing that because she was happy that her husband would watch anything at all.

[steaver]

And check him out and see what he believes and teaches. This is a point I would like to expand on. Many times that which a person or a church "officially" states in writing as positional doctrine does not coinside with what they actually promote and teach. And many times there doctrinal statements are sound, but once they have you in, they begin to push false prophets or erronious traditions which destroy the seekers quest for truth. Maybe even destroying any chance for salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

The Mormons have Joseph Smith, the SDA"s have Ellen White, the JW's have the Watch Tower, the Catholics have a Pope.

In the case of the Catholics you have them declaring that anyone who believes that faith alone in Jesus Christ is enough to grant salvation is acursed. Yet when pressed on the issue they hedge and try to embrace all as having salvation through Jesus Christ regardless of this belief in faith alone. What has been declared by them concerning "Faith Alone" has never been retracted. It can never be retracted. For to retract any declaration handed down by the "official church" would mean that they were wrong, and since they are God's chosen authority on interpretational matters, this cannot be, to retract would be the beginning of the end for the catholic church, so they must wiggle around the declaration rather than promote it to it's fullest intent.

We will learn in the future whether or not Joel's "retraction" is genuine. I am sure he will have many more secular opportunities to declare that Jesus Christ is the only God and Savior for the entire world. That without faith in Him alone there is no salvation or heaven awaiting the unbeliever.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Let's see what his future holds.

God Bless!

[hillclimber]

I've never heard of him. Isn't it grand that we have the Holy Spirit as a check? And we have the Word readily available to check these things?

Peter denied Christ thrice. Christ not only forgave him but called him a rock and promised to build a church through him.

[Marcia]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Do you have any "win over satan" quotes from him? The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. And He did battle with Satan face to face. Can you imagine what a show down that was? It was good vs. evil. Right vs. wrong. Holiness vs. filth. Here are the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. But thank God. The Bible says, "Satan was no match for our Champion". This was no contest. (Congregation applauds)

Jesus crushed Satan's head with His foot. He bruised his head. And He once and for all, forever defeated and dethroned and demoralized our enemy. One translation says, "He paralyzed him and rendered him powerless". But thank God. He didn't even stop there. He went over and ripped the keys of death and hell out of Satan's hands. And He grabbed Satan by the nap of his neck and He began to slowly drag him down through the corridors of Hell. All beat up and bruised because He wanted to make sure that every single demon saw very clearly that Jesus was indeed the undisputed Champion of all time! Amen?"

(Joel Osteen, Sermon, CS-002 - April 23, 2000, "The Truth of The Resurrection")

[Marcia]

I heard Osteen with my own ears give a sermon in which the message was that you can kill someone with your thoughts. He talked first about a woman whose plants died because although she took care of them, they died because she worried about them.

Then he talked about a man who had a lovely wife and young children but he always worried about losing his wife. After a few years, she died (she was still pretty young). Osteen then said something about the power of our thoughts and how we have to be careful.

I recently ran into a friend who had heard this same sermon and was astonished at what Osteen said. He remembered the same things I had remembered about it.

Osteen is New Thought and Word Faith; he believes that you materially create your reality with your thoughts and words (this is similar to the kind of thinking in the New Age, which has also been influenced by New Thought). God is not in charge; you are.

[Joseph_Botwinick]

It is sad that so many flock to an obvious false teacher...which is yet more evidence that a large Church is not always a sign that God is blessing it. Enter the narrow gate and leave the wide road that leads to destruction to folks like Osteen.

Joseph Botwinick

[whetstone]

That is hilarious!

[whetstone]

I mean osteen is such a poser.

[StefanM]

Osteen smiles way too much, so I have a hard time him seriously. Osteen makes this :D look like a smirk.

[D28guy]

whetstone,

What do you mean that someone is a "poser." Is it a mispelling or something? I've never heard of that word.

Mike

[Joseph_Botwinick]

a poser is a fake or a phony.

Joseph Botwinick

[mcdirector]

Well, I am disappointed that Osteen was on Larry King and was so wishy-washy. How hard is it to say that the only way to God is through Jesus and my prayer for Muslims and Buddists (or whoever else was mentioned) is that they come to know Jesus? He could say all that with that smile of his. And sure it is God's job to judge what's in our hearts, but what comes out of someone's mouth (or lifestyle evidence) is a good place to start a critique of his/her belief system -- in order to share the gospel. How sad. He's got a huge following.

[JamesBell]

This wasn't my biggest problem with Osteen. Have you ever watched one of his sermons on television? They have a little show of holding up their Bibles and saying they believe them, then put them in their laps while Osteen gives a motivational speech. He will mention a verse from time to time, but God's Word seems to be a after thought for him. Maybe it is just me, but I thought that was supposed to be the center of our worship services.

[atestring]

I h3eard Brother joel on Larry king.
I am appalled that the title of this threasd implies that Joel Ostyeen denies christ. he did not!!!!!!!!
He has done a great job following in aHis fathers footsteps.
John Osteen was one of the greatest pastors that ever graced the United states.
I love his mother dottie Osteen. Have read hier book called "How i was Healed of cancer."

Winston Churchhill Once ssaid: " it takes a skilled carpenter to build a barn bu any ole Jack ass can tear one down."
That is my comment of those that try to claim a stupid accusation that Joel Osteen denied Jesus.
Shame on anyone that says this!!!!

[Orvie]

So, Joel's word is more important than God's? Mr Osteen is a "Smiling Pillow Prophet" read about him in Jer 23 (i.e., the likes of him there).

[Brian30755]

I h3eard Brother joel on Larry king.
I am appalled that the title of this threasd implies that Joel Ostyeen denies christ. he did not!!!!!!!!
He has done a great job following in aHis fathers footsteps.
John Osteen was one of the greatest pastors that ever graced the United states.
I love his mother dottie Osteen. Have read hier book called "How i was Healed of cancer."

Winston Churchhill Once ssaid: " it takes a skilled carpenter to build a barn bu any ole Jack ass can tear one down."
That is my comment of those that try to claim a stupid accusation that Joel Osteen denied Jesus.
Shame on anyone that says this!!!! You don't have to take anyone's word for it. You can read the transcript on CNN's site and see exactly what he said. Here's the link. (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/20/lkl.01.html)

[atestring]

I read it Brian.
I don't see Joel Osteen denying Jesus As The ChrisT.

Orvie can call him a pillow Prophet but I don't believe that is an accurate statement.

If that were true ,then one should pray rather thatn criticize a Pastor. But it simply is not true.
This is all I have to say on this subject.

[JamesBell]

OK, he did not deny Christ, he simply denied that Christ is, in fact, who He said He is. By not standing up and saying that Jesus is the only way to salvation, he did something that made everyone THINK he denied Christ. Either way, he should have known better and been better prepared for Larry King, unless the things said in this thread are true, which I hope they are not.

[atestring]

I think that there are people on a witch hunt and those that try to make a mountain out of a molehill.
There are folks that thrive on trying to find fault with people.
The Bible says, Judge not unless you be judged

[Marcia]

Originally posted by atestring:
I think that there are people on a witch hunt and those that try to make a mountain out of a molehill.
There are folks that thrive on trying to find fault with people.
The Bible says, Judge not unless you be judged We are supposed to judge teachings by the Bible. When I criticize someone like Osteen, it's because of what he teaches. I am critiquing his teachings, not him as a person. That's irrelevant.

[atestring]

Marcia,
If Joel Osteen really denied Jesus I would not watch him
The problem is that I watched Joel Osteen and have read the transcript from the larry King show.
He proclaims Jesus. So what if he smiles? I think Jesus smiled and is probably still smiling.
MArcia you could learn from Joel Osteen .
He preaches Jesus and He is happy about Jesus.
Are you happy about Jesus?
Do you make people want to look to Jesus for the answers to lifes problems?
don't answer me answer these questions to yourself just as I ask myself these questions?

[Chemnitz]

The problem is that he flip-flopped faster than a Presidential Canidate. At one point Osteen nearly says that Jesus is the only way, but when King asks if he believes that Muslims, etc are wrong and going to Hell. He backtracks and says I don't want to judge.

I will admit I have a lot against Osteen and his teachings. When I worked as a chaplain with M.D. Anderson, I spent a fair bit of time dealing with the lives his preaching damaged, because they believed they did not have faith because they were still sick with cancer.

He had a great chance to proclaim Jesus as the great savior of the World but he blew it. No if's ands or buts about it, Osteen blew it. He had the chance to say that because these good people have been decieved and have misplaced faith in the teachings of a false prophet they are going to go to hell. But Jesus died and rose again so they don't have to suffer that fate and He wants to rescue them from that horrible fate. Unfortunately Mr. Osteen did not say that in a misguided attempt to look compassionate.
Matt 7:1 is not a commandment against Judgement rather a warning that by the measure you judge other you will also be judged. I am holding myself to the same standard I am holding Mr. Osteen to and I continually pray that God would lift me to that standard.

[atestring]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
The problem is that he flip-flopped faster than a Presidential Canidate. At one point Osteen nearly says that Jesus is the only way, but when King asks if he believes that Muslims, etc are wrong and going to Hell. He backtracks and says I don't want to judge.

I will admit I have a lot against Osteen and his teachings. When I worked as a chaplain with M.D. Anderson, I spent a fair bit of time dealing with the lives his preaching damaged, because they believed they did not have faith because they were still sick with cancer.

He had a great chance to proclaim Jesus as the great savior of the World but he blew it. No if's ands or buts about it, Osteen blew it. He had the chance to say that because these good people have been decieved and have misplaced faith in the teachings of a false prophet they are going to go to hell. But Jesus died and rose again so they don't have to suffer that fate and He wants to rescue them from that horrible fate. Unfortunately Mr. Osteen did not say that in a misguided attempt to look compassionate.
Matt 7:1 is not a commandment against Judgement rather a warning that by the measure you judge other you will also be judged. I am holding myself to the same standard I am holding Mr. Osteen to and I continually pray that God would lift me to that standard. Sounds like you had a bias before Joel Osteen was on Larry King.
This kind of bias causes one to try find fault with someone wheither they are right or wrong.

[leesw]

I have his book. Haven't read it yet. I think he's cheesy as a person.......but I could be wrong. I'll read the book and let you know. I'm sure you'll all be standing on pins and needles waiting for my review.

[Karen]

I know nothing really about Joel Osteen other than this thread. Sounds like room for concern.
However, it does sound like he repented of his unclear statements on Larry King. See Ben's posts.
It doesn't sound like that makes any difference to anybody.

Karen

[mcdirector]

I mentioned this thread to my husband -- he watches Larry King -- and his take about the interview was different from mine -- Even in his reading of the transcript. I think that the actual watching of the show must have made a difference. He also felt that Osteen had been waylaid (sp?) by King.

I read Osteen's apology. It appeared sincere and he made it clear what (and in whom) he believes.

[Marcia]

Originally posted by atestring:
Marcia,
If Joel Osteen really denied Jesus I would not watch him
The problem is that I watched Joel Osteen and have read the transcript from the larry King show.
He proclaims Jesus. So what if he smiles? I think Jesus smiled and is probably still smiling.
MArcia you could learn from Joel Osteen .
He preaches Jesus and He is happy about Jesus.
Are you happy about Jesus?
Do you make people want to look to Jesus for the answers to lifes problems?
don't answer me answer these questions to yourself just as I ask myself these questions? Yes, I am happy about Jesus.

I have nothing to learn from Osteen. He teaches that Jesus had to go to hell to fight Satan in order to pay for sins.

He teaches that we have to say God's blessings out loud in order to get them.

He teaches that our thoughts can kill people.

He teaches God as a tool to get happy and get what we want.

Sorry, that is not my God nor my Jesus.

[atestring]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
Marcia,
If Joel Osteen really denied Jesus I would not watch him
The problem is that I watched Joel Osteen and have read the transcript from the larry King show.
He proclaims Jesus. So what if he smiles? I think Jesus smiled and is probably still smiling.
MArcia you could learn from Joel Osteen .
He preaches Jesus and He is happy about Jesus.
Are you happy about Jesus?
Do you make people want to look to Jesus for the answers to lifes problems?
don't answer me answer these questions to yourself just as I ask myself these questions? Yes, I am happy about Jesus.

I have nothing to learn from Osteen. He teaches that Jesus had to go to hell to fight Satan in order to pay for sins.

He teaches that we have to say God's blessings out loud in order to get them.

He teaches that our thoughts can kill people.

He teaches God as a tool to get happy and get what we want.

Sorry, that is not my God nor my Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia
You spend to much time reading ridiculous internet articles.

[Marcia]

Posted by atestring
Marcia
You spend to much time reading ridiculous internet articles.
You are making an untrue accusation.

In fact, atestring, I've heard Osteen many times on TV and I have been reading his book. My statements above come from what I've heard him say or read in his book.

As usual, you don't address the issues but instead make personal comments. It does nothing for your credibility. You never do acknowledge the heresies of the Word Faith teachings, for example.

[Humblesmith]

Joel Osteen inherited a large church from his father, who was the pastor and died rather suddenly. Apparently he has also inherited his father's word-faith teachings. He comes accross as a person with good intentions, but he would have benefitted from some good seminary training before taking a pulpit. Larry King is a very, very experienced interviewer, and if someone is not prepared, they can be caught off gaurd.

The nicest thing I can say about Osteen is the same thing that Walter Martin said about Jimmy Swaggart: "He's a better evangelist than theologian."

[atestring]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Posted by atestring
Marcia
You spend to much time reading ridiculous internet articles.
You are making an untrue accusation.

In fact, atestring, I've heard Osteen many times on TV and I have been reading his book. My statements above come from what I've heard him say or read in his book.

As usual, you don't address the issues but instead make personal comments. It does nothing for your credibility. You never do acknowledge the heresies of the Word Faith teachings, for example. </font>[/QUOTE]I forgot,
(edited for personal attack)

[ July 20, 2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

[atestring]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
Marcia,
If Joel Osteen really denied Jesus I would not watch him
The problem is that I watched Joel Osteen and have read the transcript from the larry King show.
He proclaims Jesus. So what if he smiles? I think Jesus smiled and is probably still smiling.
MArcia you could learn from Joel Osteen .
He preaches Jesus and He is happy about Jesus.
Are you happy about Jesus?
Do you make people want to look to Jesus for the answers to lifes problems?
don't answer me answer these questions to yourself just as I ask myself these questions? Yes, I am happy about Jesus.

I have nothing to learn from Osteen. He teaches that Jesus had to go to hell to fight Satan in order to pay for sins.

He teaches that we have to say God's blessings out loud in order to get them.

He teaches that our thoughts can kill people.

He teaches God as a tool to get happy and get what we want.

Sorry, that is not my God nor my Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE]Our thoughts can kill us.
I got born again by believing my heart and Speaking with my mouth.
Jesus is the source of my happiness and the source of my supply.
Jesus triumphed over death hell and the grave.
So what is your problem?

[atestring]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Posted by atestring
Marcia
You spend to much time reading ridiculous internet articles.
You are making an untrue accusation.

In fact, atestring, I've heard Osteen many times on TV and I have been reading his book. My statements above come from what I've heard him say or read in his book.

As usual, you don't address the issues but instead make personal comments. It does nothing for your credibility. You never do acknowledge the heresies of the Word Faith teachings, for example. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you expect me to believe that Word of Faith teaching is heresy because you say so?
Tell me what qualifies you to accuse anyone of heresy.

[Orvie]

Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Posted by atestring
Marcia
You spend to much time reading ridiculous internet articles.
You are making an untrue accusation.

In fact, atestring, I've heard Osteen many times on TV and I have been reading his book. My statements above come from what I've heard him say or read in his book.

As usual, you don't address the issues but instead make personal comments. It does nothing for your credibility. You never do acknowledge the heresies of the Word Faith teachings, for example. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you expect me to believe that Word of Faith teaching is heresy because you say so?
Tell me what qualifies you to accuse anyone of heresy. </font>[/QUOTE]The "W/F" IS heresy b/c it deifies man and reduces God to your personal genie in a bottle...just rub that "genie" w/ your words and have faith in those words. Sad indeed.
As far as Joel is concerned, he is a "W/F" preacher, although he seems milder than the likes of Dollar and Price (note the surnames :rolleyes: )I think too, he's sincere, but wrong.

[Nevertheless]

Originally posted by mcdirector:
He also felt that Osteen had been waylaid (sp?) by King.
Perhaps, but that's what King does. If Osteen went into the interview expecting a nice pleasant chat, he's quite foolish.

I read Osteen's apology. It appeared sincere and he made it clear what (and in whom) he believes. Maybe. But the apology didn't have the coverage of the original statement. A huge opportunity lost, even giving Osteen a gigantic benefit of the doubt.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by steaver:
Many times that which a person or a church "officially" states in writing as positional doctrine does not coinside with what they actually promote and teach. And many times there doctrinal statements are sound, but once they have you in, they begin to push false prophets or erronious traditions which destroy the seekers quest for truth.Valid point. But, in the case of Osteen (admittedly, I''m not well-versed in him), I've never heard him say anything that is contrary to scripture, not have I ever seen anything on his church's website that is contrary to scripture. I say only parts of the Larry King interview, and didn't find anything contrary to scripture there either. I think he's definitely a "feel good" preacher, which many hardcore fundies won't like. However, I can discern fully between not liking something, and saying it's not scriptural.

I'm not an Osteen fan, but I don't think he's unscriptural.

[Marcia]

Do you expect me to believe that Word of Faith teaching is heresy because you say so?
Tell me what qualifies you to accuse anyone of heresy. 2nd question first: The Bible.

1st question: No.

You should be able to evaluate teachings yourself with God's word. You list yourself as Baptist, so I'm surprised you have no trouble with Word of Faith teachings.

WF teaches that Jesus literally became sin himself (not that he just took it on), but that he had a sin nature, had to go to hell to fight Satan in order to atone for sin (instead of atoning on the cross), and that men when saved are little gods and can create with their mouths the way God does.

Copeland teaches that God the Father has a physical body. All of these teachings are heretical and go against the Bible.

[Marcia]

Posted by JohnV
But, in the case of Osteen (admittedly, I''m not well-versed in him), I've never heard him say anything that is contrary to scripture, not have I ever seen anything on his church's website that is contrary to scripture. I say only parts of the Larry King interview, and didn't find anything contrary to scripture there either. I think he's definitely a "feel good" preacher, which many hardcore fundies won't like. However, I can discern fully between not liking something, and saying it's not scriptural.

I'm not an Osteen fan, but I don't think he's unscriptural.
JohnV, you have to look beyond his website. Read his book and listen to his sermons, but you may have to do that for awhile. I had listened to him for awhile before I heard the "thought kills" sermon. For example, you could kill your wife if you kept being afraid you were going to lose her -- without saying a word or doing anything. Just think that and the power of your thoughts will kill her. This is from New Thought, one of the origins of Word Faith (and New Age).

In his book, he says that we have to say God's blessings out loud in order to have them. Not believe them or not trust God, but say them aloud. This is really magical thinking. This is not heresy but it is certainly unbiblical.

Osteen is more New Thought than anything, mixed in with the feel-goodism. He believes it is a sin to say anything negative. This is also classic WF teaching. They divide everything up between positive and negative, not good and evil.

Also, Osteen has said the classic WF stuff like Jesus having to go to hell to fight Satan (I heard this in his Easter sermon).

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I had listened to him for awhile before I heard the "thought kills" sermon. For example, you could kill your wife if you kept being afraid you were going to lose her -- without saying a word or doing anything. Just think that and the power of your thoughts will kill her. This is from New Thought, one of the origins of Word Faith (and New Age).
I may be wrong, but I suspect you might have taken a message out of context, or perhaps taking an analogy as literal. I've heard things similar to that example. For example, the self-fulfilling prophecy. A man marries a woman, and is so insecure in his thoughts that he's consistently fearful that she's going to cheat on him with someone else. Eventually, because of her husband's attitude, she does just that. Anyway, that's a very short analogy. Actually, scripture tells us not to be worried about such things.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just surmising here, because fro what you've told me, it doesn't sound unscriptural.

I will take your advice and do a little more research. However, I remain objective as I do so, so as not to cloud my own judgement.

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
I had listened to him for awhile before I heard the "thought kills" sermon. For example, you could kill your wife if you kept being afraid you were going to lose her -- without saying a word or doing anything. Just think that and the power of your thoughts will kill her. This is from New Thought, one of the origins of Word Faith (and New Age).
I may be wrong, but I suspect you might have taken a message out of context, or perhaps taking an analogy as literal. I've heard things similar to that example. For example, the self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just surmising here, because fro what you've told me, it doesn't sound unscriptural.

I will take your advice and do a little more research. However, I remain objective as I do so, so as not to cloud my own judgement. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not wrong. It was not about self-fulflling prophecy. I speak publicly and believe me, I have to be sure I'm right before I say something about someone. Although Osteen is not an issue in my ministry directly, I have been asked about him quite a bit.

Also, the New Thought movement is part of my area because of its influence on the New Age, and so that makes Osteen and WF teachings peripheral to what I talk and write on.

Osteen is more subtle than other WF teachers like Copeland. He also puts more feel-good stuff in his messages than a lot of WF teachers. So I see him more as a blend of motivational, New Thought, feel good, and WF.

[Nevertheless]

For example, you could kill your wife if you kept being afraid you were going to lose her -- without saying a word or doing anything. Just think that and the power of your thoughts will kill her.
(...)
In his book, he says that we have to say God's blessings out loud in order to have them.Our thoughts have power of their own, but God's promises must be spoken (by us) to have power?!?
That stance alone should make any Christian scrutinize this man's teachings carefully before believing a word he says.

[Marcia]

Posted by Nevertheless
Our thoughts have power of their own, but God's promises must be spoken (by us) to have power?!?
That stance alone should make any Christian scrutinize this man's teachings carefully before believing a word he says.
Interesting point, Never. Hadn't thought of it that way.

One of the marks of aberrant and heretical teachings is that God or Jesus are always lowered and/or man is raised. Of course, when you raise man's status up, you lower God. This might just be a slight shift, but it's enough to set things askew. That's what this does.

[shannonL]

One reason Joel is so appealing is you look at him and say : "Well he is such a nice boy" tee hee.

I like what one poster noticed. On Joel's show they make a big deal about raising their Bibles and make this big quote then after that you never have to open it. He might quote one verse then tell you this nice story. I Joel was a swimming pool he would definitly be one of those kittie pools when it comes to his message. He preaches a shallow message. He is also a Word of Faith teacher I've heard him preach on that stuff more than once.

[shannonL]

BTW, has anyone noticed how alot of guys are writing their version of the PDL? You got to laugh. I mean basically that is all Joel's book is. His own spin on a PDL kind of life. All the TV preachers have one the good preachers and the nuts.

[D28guy]

What the heck is "the PDL"?

Mike

[here now]

Hi D28guy,
Purpose Driven Life (PDL)

[Chemnitz]

I nearly drove off the road when I saw a Billboard add for Lakewood that said "Come, discover the power within you"

You have to wonder about the message that is being taught when they are advertizing about a power within you. It sounds almost New Age.

"Sounds like you had a bias before Joel Osteen was on Larry King."

Yes I already had a bias against Mr. Osteen, a bias created by hearing "if you only have enough faith/or do things to earn God's favor goodthings will happen to you sermons" and the spiritual damage he did to people in physical suffering, but I would have said the same thing about a person I do like and I would have noticed it. Let's face it this was a blatently obvious flip-flop.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
You have to wonder about the message that is being taught when they are advertizing about a power within you. It sounds almost New Age.Whoa, slow down. "Greater is He that is in me, than he who is in the world" and "It is God at work in you...", and "He who began a good work in you..." are all scriptural teachings. I know that New Age teachings sound similar, but we shouldn't toss the healthy out because it might resemble the unhealthy.

That said, I'm not defending Osteen. I will take everyone's word for it on his WOF influence. However, if we're to chastise a person for unscripturalness, let's make sure it's something that is truly unscriptural. I've seen a few local pastors get blasted because something they said "sounded New Age", regardless of the fact that what the said was scriptural. Capiche?

[Chemnitz]

But God is not a power and the unbeliever doesn't have Christ dwelling with in them, so directing them to look inward in the fashion this sign implies is not scriptural.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
But God is not a power and the unbeliever doesn't have Christ dwelling with in them, so directing them to look inward in the fashion this sign implies is not scriptural. Yes and no. Even in the unbeliever, that person comes to have a relationship with God via a prompting of the Holy Spirit working inside them. I'm not saying God is "a power". I'm eluding the the fact that it is the pwoer of the Lord that works inside us, as per numerous scriptures. I don't think we should jump all over a preacher if he says we should unlock the potential or power within us. We should take that in the context delivered. Ya know what they say about context.

I'm not in any way defending any type of new age belief. I'm simply pointing out that we should abandon something just because a non-christian belief also shares that same belief.

Anyhoo, I don't think we're really in disagreement here.

[Johnv]

Oops, I sould have said "we should NOT abandon something just because a non-christian belief also shares that same belief".

Bad fingers, bad fingers!!

[Marcia]

The phrase "the power within you" or "unlock the power withing you" should not be used by Christians because it implies a power that is part of our material being. Saying it like this also is taking it out of context and is a serious misrepresentation of Scripture, imo.

Also, I see Chenmitz' point that to unbelievers (and some believers) this looks like a way to make Christ just another power to tap into (which is essentially what Osteen teaches).

Believers do have the power of the HS but it's to serve and glorify God, not get what we want (which is how it's taught in WF and New Thought).

The reason to be careful is that non-Christians define words differently and will see this as saying something else -- that is misleading them.

[Johnv]

I suppose we can agree to disagree on that point. I have no problem telling people that there's a power within me, and that power is the Holy Spirit.

Again, I'm not defending Osteen, or supporting new age thinking, just pointing out that we shouldn't be phrasophobic.

[yeshua4me2]

i think the WOF movement is the most dangerous thing to the church today..the gospel they preach essentially innoculates the person to the real gospel. i have tried to share the gospel with people who have just enough knowledge about the bible to be satified that "they accepted Jesus into their heart" last year. of course they are living unregenerate live in direct opposition to what they say, but they had this hypre-emotional experiance, and that ends up trumping the truth. has anyone else had this experience?
i also find that if you show WOF'ers the truth, they (and this has happened) start saying stuf like.....
i know where your spirit comes from
or do not lay a hand on God's anointed
or are you dening my spirit?
ect....

i think a more literal understanding of Matt 24:4+5 is in order....

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

or

#5 For many shall come in My name saying, "I am Annointed" and shall decieve many.

(if you say that line like Rod Parsley you get the full effect....hehehe)


i think the NT if completely clear, that the largest problem for the church of the "latter times" (1+2 Tim) is heresy or apostacy from WITHIN.


I really like Ray Comforts book Way of the Master explination of the parables, and i think they really apply here

thankyou and God Bless

[Rachel]

Originally posted by yeshua4me2:
i think the WOF movement is the most dangerous thing to the church today..the gospel they preach essentially innoculates the person to the real gospel. i have tried to share the gospel with people who have just enough knowledge about the bible to be satified that "they accepted Jesus into their heart" last year. of course they are living unregenerate live in direct opposition to what they say, but they had this hypre-emotional experiance, and that ends up trumping the truth. has anyone else had this experience?
i also find that if you show WOF'ers the truth, they (and this has happened) start saying stuf like.....
i know where your spirit comes from
or do not lay a hand on God's anointed
or are you dening my spirit?
ect....

i think a more literal understanding of Matt 24:4+5 is in order....

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

or

#5 For many shall come in My name saying, "I am Annointed" and shall decieve many.

(if you say that line like Rod Parsley you get the full effect....hehehe)


i think the NT if completely clear, that the largest problem for the church of the "latter times" (1+2 Tim) is heresy or apostacy from WITHIN.


I really like Ray Comforts book Way of the Master explination of the parables, and i think they really apply here

thankyou and God Bless Yes, have had the same experience with WOF people. So much for searching the scriptures for themselves. It looks to me that alot of people can care less about being deceived. :(

[rc]

All seeker sensitive churchs have to disregard doctrine. Olsteen and Rick Warren and all the rest are blind following the blind.

[atestring]

Originally posted by shannonL:
One reason Joel is so appealing is you look at him and say : "Well he is such a nice boy" tee hee.

I like what one poster noticed. On Joel's show they make a big deal about raising their Bibles and make this big quote then after that you never have to open it. He might quote one verse then tell you this nice story. I Joel was a swimming pool he would definitly be one of those kittie pools when it comes to his message. He preaches a shallow message. He is also a Word of Faith teacher I've heard him preach on that stuff more than once. What is your definition of a shallow messaage?