The Sabbath- a much misunderstood Bible Text

[Claudia_T]

Romans 14:5 is a very often midunderstood Bible text, when it comes to the subject of the Sabbath Day. Many use it as a "proof" that God doesnt really care which day we regard as the Sabbath day, but by doing this they show that they misunderstand what is written there.

Romans 14:5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

A Seventh Day Adventist named A.T. Jones wrote a 9 chapter piece on the subject of Religious Liberty and the Sabbath. This below is chapter 5 and how it relates to that verse in Romans 14:5:


FROM the Scriptures it is plain that the divine right of individuality in religion stands supreme in the presence of autocratic monarchy; in the presence of any decree, statute, or law, of any government; in the presence of the church in control of the civil power; and in the presence of the church itself, even within the membership of the church.

There is just one other possible relationshipthat of the individual to the individual. But when it is plain and positive by the word of God that no autocracy, no government of law, no church in control of civil power, and no church within the circle of its own membership, has any authority, jurisdiction, or right, in matters religious in the presence of the supreme and absolute right of the individual, then it is certain that no individual can ever have any authority, jurisdiction, or right over another individual in things religious.

Though this is plain in itself it is well to study at least some of the Scriptures on this, as well as on each of the other phases of this subject.

Faith is the gift of God, and to the individual. Jesus Christ is both the Author and the Finisher of faith. This being so, it lies in the nature of things that never by any possibility in righteousness can anybody but Christ have any authority, jurisdiction, or right, respecting the exercise of faith which is the vital element of religion. Christ being both the Author and the Finisher of faith, to Him alone belongs the sole sovereignty and jurisdiction in all things relating to faith and to the exercise of faith, which is religion.

Accordingly the Scriptures say, "Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God." Rom. 14:22. Faith being the gift of God, and Christ being the Author and the Finisher of it, it is impossible, for any one to owe to any but God in Christ any responsibility in matters of faith or the exercise thereof, which is religion. And this is the ground and surety of complete individuality in religion.

Therefore, the word of God stands written to individual believers forever, "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations": not to judge his doubtful thoughts; not for decisions of doubts; not to "judge him"; not to "despise him"; "for God hath received him." Rom. 14: 1-3.

Please let there be noted forever, and forever regarded, that the reason, divinely given, as to why no Christian can ever "dispute" with or "decide" for or "judge," or "despise" another, is that "God hath received him".

"God hath received him" therefore, "receive ye" him.

"God hath received him" upon his faith, therefore, "receive ye" him upon his faith.

Even though he be "weak in the faith," yet "God hath received him"; therefore, even though he be still "weak in the faith," "receive ye him."

Even though he be "weak in the faith," it is "the faith" in which he is weak. And in that faith and by that faith he is saved. That faith is the gift of God, given to save the soul; and whosoever is in that faith, even though he be weak, has the salvation of God which is by faith. Of that faith, Jesus Christ is the Author and the Finisher; and whosoever is in that faith has Christ working in him to finish the blessed work of that faith unto the eternal salvation of the soul. That faith, the individual is to hold unto God the giver of it, and in Christ, the Author and Finisher of it. The faith being the gift of God through Christ, he who has it, has it only unto God in Christ; and in that faith his responsibility is solely to God in Christ.

Therefore, "him that is weak in the faith receive YE, . . . for God hath received HIM." God being the giver of "the faith" through Christ, the Author and Finisher of faith, the responsibility of every one "in the faith" is to God in Christ. Therefore, "him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations, not for decisions of doubts," not to "despise him," not to "judge him"; for, since "God hath received him" "in the faith," and since "in the faith" he is responsible to God only, "Who art thou that judgest another mans servant?" Verse 4. This is impossible in righteousness even though he be a man's servant; how much more, when he is God's servant, received and accepted of God "in the faith?"

Who then, art thou that judgest God's servant, received of Him "in the faith?" "To his own Master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up, for God is able to make him stand." And when "God hath received" "in the faith" one whom you and I will not receive "in the faith," then, where shall we appear? The question is not then between us and him, but between God and us. Our difference is then with God, and we have entered into judgment with God. But when we enter into judgment with God over His having received "in the faith," one whom we will not receive "in the faith," then it is certain that we cannot stand in that judgment; because we ourselves are not "in the faith."

And when God will hold up, and will make to stand "in the faith," him whom you and I will not receive him, whom you and I will not hold up nor try to make to stand, then that one is altogether safe with God "in the faith." And even though he be "weak in the faith," yet God is able to hold him up and to make him stand, and "he shall be holden up" and made to stand by God who has received him "in the faith" of which God is the giver, and Christ the Author and Finisher. And as for you and me, in all this matter, "let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall."

Another item that demonstrates the perfect individuality of man in things religious, follows immediately the words already quoted, thus: "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Verse 5.

This Scripture does not say that all days are alike; but only that some "esteemeth every day alike." The Scriptures are perfectly plain upon the truth that all days are not alike: that there is a day that God has made peculiarly his own, and for man's eternal good has set it apart from all other days. That day is "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God."

And though this is true by the word of God, yet as to the observance or non- observance of that day the word of the Lord explicitly declares, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." And in this declaration he has again confirmed the perfect supremacy and absolute right of individuality in religion.

And, by the way, this item touches a matter that is everywhere rife today: the matter of the compulsory observance of a sabbath or day of rest. But in all things pertaining to the observance or regarding of a day, the word of God to all people is, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that regardeth not the day to the Lord, he doth not regard it." Verse 6.

Any day regarded or observed nor to the Lord is not truly regarded or observed at all; for then there is nothing in it truly to regard. It is God who has selected, distinguished, and set apart, the day. The observance of the day pertains, therefore, to God; and lies only between God and the individual in faith and conscience. Therefore any observance of a sabbath or rest day enforced by law, by statute, by police, by court, by prosecution, or by persecution, is, in the first instance, a direct invasion of the province of God and of the realm of faith and conscience in the individual; and in the second instance is not even the observance of the day, and never can be, because it is not of persuasion in the mind.

God has appointed his own chosen and sanctified day to be observed; that is true. He calls upon all people to observe it, that is true. But in the observance or regarding of this day, the word of God thus explicitly declares that it is wholly an individual matter: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." And when any man is not fully persuaded in his own mind, and therefore does not observe the day to the Lord, his responsibility for this is to God alone, and not to any man, nor to any set of men, nor to any law, or government, or power, on earth.

Following this item there is made an appeal in behalf of the recognition of perfect individuality in religionthis in view of the awful fact of the judgment of Christ and of God. This appeal runs thus: "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Verses 10,11.

Every one of us must stand before the judgment seat of Christ and of God, there to be each judged by Him. How then can it be possible ever in righteousness, that one of us can be called to be judged by another, or by any or all others, in the things of religion? that is, in the things in which we are to answer at the judgment seat of Christ.

No, no. "One is your Master, even Christ, and all ve are brethren." And, "He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?" James 4:11.

Thus, that there is to be a judgment-seat of Christ and of God where all must appear, each to answer for "the deeds done in the body" this is one of the mightiest guaranties of perfect individuality in religion, and one of the strongest possible pleas for the recognition of it by every soul always.

Finally, the whole thought and truth of perfect individuality in religion is splendidly summed up, and powerfully emphasized as well as clearly expressed, in the inspired conclusion,

"So then every one of us shall give account of HIMSELF to GOD." Verse 12.


Please, if you would like to read the other chapters by A.T. Jones about the Sabbath and Religious Liberty, (and I highly suggest you do that because it involves YOU and the entire Christian World) ... you can go here:

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/Individuality-in-Religion/chapter1.htm

and to read more on A. T. Jones and his arguement before the United States Senate against the passing of Sunday Law... go here:

http://maranathamedia.com.au/start/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=56

and click on "National Sunday Law (Arguement of A.T Jones before the U.S Senate)"


...and just as a side note, but a very important one... many also completely misunderstand the Sabbath because of the the Pharisees in the time of Jesus who turned it into some sort of a legalistic practice. But Jesus came to "magnify the law and make it honorable [Isaiah 42:21]." Jesus showed how the Sabbath day really ought to be kept.

To read more on this subject please go to
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/Individuality-in-Religion/creation-or-evolution.htm

[ June 26, 2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

[Claudia_T]

Please also read this chapter:

http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/da/da29.html

It involves Jesus and how He taught the people how to really keep the Sabbath.

[prophecynut]

I looked over the sites you gave, here's one for you:


http://www.bible.ca/7-plagiarism.htm

[prophecynut]

Ellen White's own words from the above web site:



When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us….

"But as we lay hold upon the truth of God, its influence affects us. It elevates us and removes from us every imperfection and sin, of whatever nature. Thus we are prepared to see the King in His beauty and finally to unite with the pure and heavenly angels in the kingdom of glory."23

"Paul describes the work of God’s ambassadors as that by which every man shall be presented perfect in Christ Jesus. Those who embrace the truth of heavenly origin should be refined, ennobled, sanctified through it. It will require much painstaking effort to reach God’s standard of true manhood….

"Perfection of character is a lifelong work, unattainable by those who are not willing to strive for it in God’s appointed way, by slow and toilsome steps."24

"None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory."25

"We are not yet perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglements of self and sin, and advance to perfection. Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all."26

"A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen."27

"The precious hours of probation are granted that you may remove every defect from your character, and this you should seek to do, not only that you may obtain the future life, but that you may useful in this life." 28


[ June 26, 2005, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: prophecynut ]

[prophecynut]

continued:

Big revivals were happening in the United States during the 1830’s and many new churches/sects started up like the Mormons, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witness, etc. There was a Baptist minister/scholar named William Miller who had about 200,000 followers and they were called the Millerites. Miller preached that Christ would return to earth on Oct. 22, 1843 based on his interpretation of Daniel 8:13,14. When Christ didn’t return on that date there was a falling out of some of the followers while others recalculated and realized they missed a year in the calculation so the date should have been Oct. 22, 1844. The revival resumed only to collapse when Christ didn’t come back again in 1844. What followed was called The Great Disappointment. Many believers left the movement disheartened. Ellen Harmon (Ellen White’s maiden name) was one of the ones who stayed to figure out what happened. The movement was saved when Hirum Edson and Ellen Harmon reported seeing visions of Christ entering the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary and concluded that this is what took place in 1844. So they believed this was the correct interpretation of Daniel 8:13,14. This offshoot from the Millerite movement became the Seventh-Day Adventist church. Sadly, this 3rd interpretation was also incorrect, but it has stuck with the church ever since. Over the years, some of the brightest scholars have left the church because of this doctrine and the use of Ellen White’s writings.

[prophecynut]

Proof the official doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist churches is that the Mark of the beast is those who worship on Sunday.

1. "Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast." ... "The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God." (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith pages 170, 183)
2. "Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible." (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23)
3. "The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is the mark of the beast." (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2, August, 1850.)
4. "The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church." ... "The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark." (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281.
5. "The mark of the beast is Sunday-keeping. A law will enforce this upon Seventh-day Adventists. They won't obey. Then they will be outlawed, persecuted, and condemned to death! Of all the wild Advent speculations in the prophecies, this deserves to stand among the wildest." (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914)
6. "Sunday-keeping is an institution of the first beast, and ALL who submit to obey this institution emphatically worship the first beast and receive his mark, 'the mark of the beast.' .... Those who worship the beast and his image by observing the first day are certainly idolaters, as were the worshippers of the golden calf." (Advent Review Extra, pages 10 and 11, August, 1850)
7. "the Seventh day, Saturday, must be kept; that keeping Sunday is the mark of the beast; that all should pay tithes; that Mrs. White is inspired as were the writers of the Bible; that the Bible must be interpreted to harmonize with her writings" (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914)

[steaver]

Good presentation of info prophecynut, yet those under Ellen's spell will ignore her ridiculous writings and continue on in her twisted faith.

God bless!

[steaver]

I'm sorry you believe all of that garb Claudia. It just amazes me how folks can take a painfully simple gospel message and work so hard and long at twisting it into uselessness.

Tell me Claudia, I worship Jesus Christ seven days a week, does this cover me then for the "Sabbath" or condemn me with the mark of the beast because of Sunday?

God Bless

[steaver]

Also, you chose a good title, but ironically you do not realize that it is the Sabbath Keepers who are doing the misunderstanding! Good thing Ellen came along to clear it up for us, hey? Shake the dust off of your sandles and get out a there girl! Just say see ya! graemlins/wave.gif

God bless!

[BobRyan]

As it turns out -- I find a lot of agreement with the words of D.L. Moody on this topic.

Particularly as it relates to some of the more common and less thought out objections to Christ the Creator's Holy day.


http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html


Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/

presents


THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.
THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
.
HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH
"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.
Now I realize that those posting against Christ the Creator's own Holy Day - are claiming in effect "D.L. Moody was wrong" and I am sure you think all the seventh-day Baptists are "wrong" and so also anyone else who happens to honor Christ the Creator's Holy Day - "made FOR MANKIND" Mark 2:27 and predicted to be kept by all mankind such that "From Sabbath to Sabbath...shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66.

But it is helpful to understand where the line is drawn.

In Christ,

Bob

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Romans 14:5 is a very often midunderstood Bible text, when it comes to the subject of the Sabbath Day. Many use it as a "proof" that God doesnt really care which day we regard as the Sabbath day, but by doing this they show that they misunderstand what is written there. That's as far as I'm reading. You show stupidity by your rejection of that verse.

[BobRyan]

Good think D.L. Moody didn't stop reading Rom 14 at that point!

[BobRyan]

Another item that demonstrates the perfect individuality of man in things religious, follows immediately the words already quoted, thus: "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Verse 5.

This Scripture does not say that all days are alike; but only that some "esteemeth every day alike." Jones was not quite accurate there. The word "alike" is not in the text.

"One man OBSERVES ONE day ABOVE another - whill another OBSERVES every day".

This issue in Rom 14 "days" is the OBSERVANCE of the BIBLE's annual feast days (Lev 23) where ONE is selected OVER another -- and in other case ALL OF THEM are OBSERVED!

The modern error is to take the case were ALL are OBSERVED and make it "NONE are OBSERVED" AS IF the text could be bent that direction!

IN Christ,

Bob

[Alcott]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Good think D.L. Moody didn't stop reading Rom 14 at that point! Better thing he didn't start reading stupidity like this topic.

[BobRyan]

Is this where I "repost" D.L. Moody's statement and you call his position "stupidity"??

[BobRyan]

ProphecyNut and Claudia seem to be in a race to see who can post the most SDA literature on this web site.

I vote a more "Baptist friendly" approach.

D.L. Moody or scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

Hi brother Bob, I knew you would show up here. graemlins/wave.gif

I like what D.L. Moody had to say about it. In fact, Amen!

Do you think that D.L. Moody had Saturday in mind when he wrote this? He doesn't mention anything about Saturday verses Sunday or any other day of the week, does he?

God Bless!

[Alcott]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Is this where I "repost" D.L. Moody's statement and you call his position "stupidity"?? You can if you like, and I will if I like. But you qualify sufficiently for that label yourself.

[BobRyan]

Fine - here is what D.L. Moody said - that "you don't like".

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html


Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/

presents


THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.
THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
.
HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH
"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.
He was very insightful on these points of scripture. Though I don't agree with him on everything he ever said - he makes a great case here!

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Hi brother Bob, I knew you would show up here. graemlins/wave.gif

I like what D.L. Moody had to say about it. In fact, Amen!

Do you think that D.L. Moody had Saturday in mind when he wrote this? He doesn't mention anything about Saturday verses Sunday or any other day of the week, does he?

God Bless! You are right - sooner or later I would get to this thread.

Moody did say that "for him" the day was Saturday simply because he was soooo busy on Sunday. And in his text he claims that Sunday is the day everybody else is using.

His idea that 4th commandment can be edited to fit the traditions of man -- is not something I agree with.

But if you look carefully at the arguments most common on these threads against Christ the Creator's Holy Day -- almost NOBODY argues that the 4th commandment is "edited" the way Moody does. They all oppose Christ's day by arguing that it is abolished.

In other words they are challenging the truth of scripture on the VERY POINTS that Moody highlights as VALID!

I find that facinating.

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

Well I don't know if it was abolished or not. I do know that I have studied the issue and haven't had any conviction from the Holy Spirit to observe the Sabbath as the Hebrews did nor as a Saturday. I don't call Sunday the Sabbath either, it is the Lord's Day according to scripture and is the day I choose to rest and worship. But that would be a Sabbath I guess.

I just think Sabbath Keepers are laying some false hope in that they will receive something special for observing the Sabbath and that those who don't will receive some punishment. I think that is silly and that it is not proper interpretation of the scriptures. Just my opinion, like i said, the Holy Spirit hasn't convicted me to do such and I am wide open for any chasening from the Lord. I invite it.

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Well I don't know if it was abolished or not.
When you read the quote from Moody above - does it appear to you that he is arguing that the 4th commandment "might have been abolished"??

If not - how is it that you say you agree with him?

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Steaver said --

I do know that I have studied the issue and haven't had any conviction from the Holy Spirit to observe the Sabbath
Sounds like "Abolished" to me.

(You know what they say -- "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...")

When you read about the New Earth in Rev 21 are you "convicted" that the saints will be there?

When you read about the New Earth in Isaiah 66 and see "in the text" that "From Sabbath to Sabbath ALL mankind will come before Me to worship" -- are you thinking "yes - everyone of mankind except the saints"??

When Christ said "The Sabbath WAS made for Mankindn" Mark 2:27 -- do you think to yourself "Well - not really!".

How have you been able get around these texts?


Steaver said --

I don't call Sunday the Sabbath either,
In the quote from Moody - he applies the obligations (the full force of God's Word regarding the 4th commandment) to Sunday, even calling it some people's Sabbath.

You apparently do not agree that the 4th commandment can be "edited" so that it points to Sunday as "The Sabbath".

At least we both agree on that.

But then - this puts you 100% opposed to ALL of Moody's points.

I agree with the points he makes as quoted above - but I do not agree that the 4th commandment is open for "edit" so that it can point to Sunday.

You appear to agree with me on that last point but not on the part where I DO agree with Moody!

So this leaves you opposed to Moody on BOTH counts does it not?

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

So this leaves you opposed to Moody on BOTH counts does it not? I guess it does. So then I retract my "Amen" for Moody.

God Bless! graemlins/thumbs.gif

[BobRyan]

In that case - you are being consistent. I think that is also the case with almost everyone who has posted against Christ the Creator's Holy Day of Gen 2:3. Certainly there is no doubt about the fact of a difference of opinion on this topic - but my point is that there is an entire group of Sunday-Sabbath Christians represented by D.L. Moody's teaching - who argue FOR the Ten Commandments (and edit the 4th) making statements that are being opposed by those here who deny the role of God's Law entirely.

Given that "deny-it-all" approach - what about Romans 2?


17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Is Paul arguing for a "better basis" for rebellion against God's Law? Is his point that in order to disregard God's Law and successfully "get by with it - one must have a better doctrinal argument against the law of God -- one that does not try to uphold it in word only to reject it in deed as do the Jews?

Who then is this "successful" gentile who litrally keeps the law but is not circumised literally in the flesh? How are they doing that? Is it "Real" obedience? Lip service like the Jews? Complete rejection of God's LAw as their form of "keeping" the law about adultery?

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

Is Paul arguing for a "better basis" for rebellion against God's Law? I believe he is arguing that they are not saved by trusting in the law and that they need God to circumcise their hearts through Jesus Christ. I think you are reaching beyond the passage's message.

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

Lets look at the "details".

#1. Paul lists individual commandments -- Adultery, stealing, idolatry... This can not be denied.

#2. Paul argues that the UNCIRCUMCISED Gentiles are in some cases OBEYING and the JEWS are in some cases in rebellion to these SPECIFIC commandments taken from the UNIT OF TEN.

This can not be denied as we read the verses quoted above.

#3. Paul argues that TRUE circumcision will be seen in the PRACTICE not simply in LIP SERVICE and he appeals to the SUCCESSFUL example of "some" gentiles. He claims that these SUCCEEDING examples show TRUE circumcision "of the HEART" done by the Holy Spirit.

These "details" are devastating to the POV that the LAW can only be violated not obeyed!

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

Ok, so how does this promote Sabbath keeping as a "must do or else" as the SDA church preaches?

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

I am simply pointing out that a "deny-it-all" approach when it comes to God's Law does not work in Romans 2.

In that Chapter Paul argues the case about rebellion against God's Law and shows how God is blasphemed among non-believers because of the hypocracy of His people claiming to honor His Word and His commands and yet living as if it is ok to transgress His Word.

Paul then points out that among non-Jews CAN be found some who actually DO honor God's commands and that THEY are counted as SPIRITUAL Jews!

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

I am simply pointing out that a "deny-it-all" approach when it comes to God's Law does not work in Romans 2.
Ok brother Bob, (and by the way...I like your mannerism in dealing with everyone and me personally...you seem very Spirit filled) , just what do you believe about the Sabbath? Do you believe that those who keep it are going to recieve something special? Do you believe those who do not are going to recieve some punishment? Just why should I keep the Sabbath? And please don't say "just because God said too" because I am not so sure that He said that those in Christ should, but don't go off into that point, just lay it all out for the Christian who does not keep the Sabbath. What does Ellen say and you believe Ellen right?

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

Steaver -

If keeping ANY of God's Word - ANY of God's Commandments is not based on God's authority then it is pointless to keep it. I hope we can all agree on that foundation point.

Lets take a point where you and I "might" agree - Idol worship is "bad". In that case the idolatry practiced by the RCC is "bad" it is "Wrong" it is "sin". But I don't believe all Catholics are going to hell for that. I believe that many of them would DENY that God's WILL is really IN HIS commandment EVEN though it READS as it does. And I am sure they have some story to go with that "Belief". Wouldn't you agree?

Does the Error of the RCC change God's Word? Does it void His command? "To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

Should we just "leave them at it"??

God is not just setting arbitrary limits to chop off toes whenever we cross the line. His commands are "BLESSINGS" they BENEFIT mankind. If we ignore them - we not only sin - but we deny ourselves the freedom and the benefit of the blessing in obedience.

They are saddled with purgatory, praying to the dead, confusion over Mary vs God (worshipping at Mary's altars) etc

All for nothing.

In Christ,

Bob

[ July 02, 2005, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

[BobRyan]

Our RC friends could be "Set free" by the truth regarding idolatry.

So the "Truth shall set you free" also applies to Christ the Creator's own Holy Day - that HE made Holy in Gen 2:3 at Creation "week" (a 7 day week not a 6 day week).

Why should we be saddled with worshipping God as "Creator" every week??

How many Sabbath keeping Christian churches accept evolutionism? How many of them have a problem with members being confused that maybe all they need is an hour in church plus a day in the shopping mall. How many Christians churches that reject evolutionism embrace the gay agenda?

Another example of the "day MADE for mankind" I have experienced is regarding school and work. I always had the joy of knowing that I must not study for class on Sabbath and that I must not drag my work into the 24 hours of Sabbath! Sure I could do so "IF I feel like it" but how often does heavy work pressure, yard-pressure, family-project pressure or an urgent school deadline push that "I don't feel like working on Sabbath" excuse right out the window!!

Sabbath was "MADE" for mankind!

Given before the fall.

In Rev 14 we see the final judgment based in the Sabbath "The everlasting Gospel goes forward declaring the HOUR of His judgment has come - WORSHIP Him who MADE the heavens and the earth..." (quoting the Sabbath commandment in Rev 14 as part of earth's final warning message).

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Ok brother Bob, (and by the way...I like your mannerism in dealing with everyone and me personally...you seem very Spirit filled) Steave -- I too appreciate your spirit in this. We both have nothing to lose if the conversation stays to the point of "What does the Bible say". A consistent reading of scripture is a benefit to both of us no matter what our background may say about it.

As for Ellen White - I do accept her writings as inspired but I never refer to them in a doctrinal discussion because doctrine should always be based "sola scriptura".

In Christ,

Bob

[Kamoroso]

Genesis 2 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God's final act of creation was to bless, and sanctify, the seventh day. We are not only told that God blessed, and sanctified this day, but also why He did so. It was because He rested from all of the work of creation. At the end of the sixth day, God saw all that He had created, and pronounced it very good ( Gen 1: 31 ). The last thing created, before God created the Holy day, was man. Man was to have dominian over all the earth, which God had just created. Before God gave over the dominian of the earth to man, He first spent a day of rest with man, contemplating the creation. Certainly, one who was just created, would need to become acquainted with his creator, and the works of His creation. This was why the day was established, that man might continually be reminded every seventh day, that God was the creator of all, including himself.

On the first day, God said let there be light, there was light, and there still is. He divided the day from the night, and they still are. On the second day, God made our atmosphere, and separated it from the heavens, and it still is. On the third day, God separated the waters from the dry land, and created all plant life. The waters and land are still separate, and the earth is full of plant life to this day. On the fourth day, God made the Sun, Moon, And the stars. They are still here today. On the fifth day, God made the creatures of the waters, and the fowl of the skies. They are still here today. On the sixth day, God created the creatures of the earth, and mankind. We are still here today. On the seventh day, God rested, and blessed and sanctified the seventh day. The seventh day is still a holy day today. It is just as established, as the rest of the things which God created in the first seven days of this world. Nothing, and no one, can change that, but God alone.

Psalm 33 4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

It took only a very short time after the fall for humanity to forget not only the Sabbath, but even God himself. This in no way changed the status of the day blessed and sanctified by God. The realities of the standards, or laws which God has established, in both the physical, and spiritual realms, is not effected by what humanity chooses to believe, or not believe. We are the ones effected by what we choose to believe, not reality. God is reality. He is, always has been, and always will be. Apart from Him there is nothing. Those who choose of their own free will, not to live in accordance with the reality of the standards, and laws which God has established, are choosing to be nothing.

Colossians 1 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

There is nothing apart from God. He is the creator, and sustainer of all. Although we have been given the freedom by Him to exist apart from his will, in this short life, the end result will be non existance. The present world that we live in, would not be in the situation it is in, if God did not allow this freedom to all His created beings. There was first, one in heaven who chose to exist outside of reality. He brought this mind set to earth with him, and spread it's influence to our progenitors, with their willing cooperation. Thus the present dilemma.

Exodus 20 8 [/i]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy[/i] . 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

It is not possible to remember something that never existed. God’s command to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is proof positive that the day existed, and was to be kept holy prior to the time this command was given. This time was at creation, when the day was blessed and sanctified by God. Moreover, by Christ, who is the Creator. What other purpose could there be for making a period of time holy, than for that time to be observed as such? To suggest that it wasn’t, is nonsense.

Matthew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What part of the above verses is to hard to understand? The Creator, when he was here in the flesh, said that the law will not change in any way. Not until heaven and earth pass. The law He is referring to is the commandments.

Matthew 24 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Speaking about the end of time, Christ says, to pray that you will not have to flee in the winter, or on the Sabbath day. Do you really think that Christ didn’t know that the Sabbath wouldn’t matter any more at the end of time? To the contrary, He knew that it would be an important issue to His true followers at the end of time. For this reason, He admonishes His servants to pray that they will not have to flee on the Sabbath day, knowing that the day we choose as our Sabbath, will be a crucial issue at the time of the end.

Joel 3 9Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Before the Lord returns, there will be a gathering together of the gentiles preparing for war. The message that prepares them for war, is a message from God. It is a message that will bring the entire world into the valley of decision. The Lord is near in the valley of decision. When all have heard this message, and made their decision in regards to it, then the harvests of the world will be ripe, and the sickle will be put into action. The harvests must be ripe before they are reaped. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of these harvests.

Matthew 13 24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. -------------------------
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Again, before the Lord Jesus Christ returns, the harvests will be ripe, and ready to be reaped. This will take place during one generation. So that the whole world will have made their decision, and therefore Christ will return. For the gospel must be preached in all the world, and then the end shall come.( Matt. 24:14)

Revelation 14 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The three angels messages of the above verses are the message from God that will bring all the world to the valley of decision. They are part of the everlasting gospel, which Christ said must be preached unto all the world, and then the end shall come. The first angel calls all back to worship the one who created the world. It states exactly what the fourth commandment does, that God is the creator. It is calling all back to worship God on the day that He blessed and sanctified at creation, for this very purpose.
The second angel warns the world about the fall of Babylon, and calls all of God's people out of her ranks. She is that great city, that is Rome. She is none other than the church of Rome, and all those apostate Christians, and religions of the world that will join her ranks in rebellion against God.
The third angel warns everyone not receive the mark of the beast. Probably the most stern warning in all the scriptures. Those who receive the mark of the beast, are those who choose the day of worship put forth by the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, that is, the Church of Rome, over the day of worship that God Himself has ordained. This day they claim as a mark, or sign of their power in the earth. This is the message that will divide the world into the two harvests to be reaped. God's day, representing faith in Him, or Rome’s day, representing faith in man. There will be no in between. Choose you this day, whom you will serve.
The difference, between those who worship the beast, and those who don’t, is the keeping of the commandments of God. That is, those who don’t worship the beast, keep the fourth commandment. Those who do, do not keep the fourth commandment, but obey the beast rather than God, by observing the false day of worship created by the Church of Rome.
After this decision has been made by all, the angels which Christ spoke of in the book of Matthew, will be sent forth to reap the two harvests of the world. These two days are not just days, they represent two different systems of worship. The one, the true worship of God, by faith in His word alone. The other, representing a system of partial worship of God, with partial worship of man. By faith in some of God's word, and some of mans traditions. The only faith that saves, is faith in the Son of God alone, who is Himself, the WORD of God. Thus it is not okay, to just choose any day we want. The more so, the nearer His coming approaches, and the more this message is given. Thus I have given it to you. What you do with it, is not my responsibility, only the giving of the message.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Genesis 2 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, AND sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
God's final act of creation was to bless, and sanctify, the seventh day. We are not only told that God blessed, and sanctified this day, but also why He did so. It was because He rested from all of the work of creation. At the end of the sixth day, God saw all that He had created, and pronounced it very good ( Gen 1: 31 ). The last thing created, before God created the Holy day, was man. Man was to have dominian over all the earth, which God had just created. Before God gave over the dominian of the earth to man, He first spent a day of rest with man, contemplating the creation. Certainly, one who was just created, would need to become acquainted with his creator, and the works of His creation. This was why the day was established, that man might continually be reminded every seventh day, that God was the creator of all, including himself.
</font>[/QUOTE]This is a very good point. God gives us the "everlasting Gospel" in Rev 14:6-8 and tells us that part of it involves our choice to obey - to worship 'Him who created the heavens and the earth and ...' (Quote from the Sabbath Commandment).

Mankind is to be visual and experientially reminded every Sabbath of Christ the Creator's role as God and Creator -- not just Savior.

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It strikes me that the Lord's Prayer is very similar to the purpose of Sabbath in reminding us of our choice for loyalty, worship and honor to God as our Creator.

"God is IN Heaven - His name is Holy. WE vote/choose/request that HIS KINGDOM come to earth - His WILL be done on earth -- just as it is in heaven".

How much MORE significant that prayer and sign of loyalty is now after the fall than even before since as Christ said to Pilate "My Kingdom IS NOT of this World".

After the fall - the recognition of the Creator's Sabbath AND the Lord's Prayer form a kind of "statement of revolt" against the god of this world!!

And well it should be since "THINE IS the Kingdom AND the Power and the Glory forever"!!

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

As for Ellen White - I do accept her writings as inspired but I never refer to them in a doctrinal discussion because doctrine should always be based "sola scriptura".
Here is where you always lose me. In my mind "inspired writings" means "God said". Am I thinking wrong here? We had this discussion before, whether or not Ellen is just an inspired preacher ( that breaks down into opinion, comparing what she preached with scripture) or are her writings inspired (she wrote as the Holy Spirit spoke to her, thus delivering new revelation of the Word of God to us) ?

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

This is a good question - but if you think about what was going on in 1Cor 14 where there were many prophets but none writing scripture you will see how one can have the gift of prophecy without also being a Bible writer.

All Bible writers are inspired - but not all inspired (as in God breathed) writers are writing scripture. We are told in the OT that Nathan was not only a prophet but was also writing the chronicles of David. Yet none of his writings continue today.

We know he is a true prophet from the account of his confrontation with David and also David's request to him regarding the building of the Temple.

We know that in the NT not only were there many prophets at Corinth - but also Philip had four daughters that were prophetesses and Agabus was a prophet along with Simeon etc.

So again - all Bible writers are inspired - but not all inspired writers/prophets are authors of scripture.

God alone determines the purpose of the message HE gives.

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

So again - all Bible writers are inspired - but not all inspired writers/prophets are authors of scripture. Bob, what those prophets said in the scriptures was considered "inspired" and is why they were recorded as scripture. That is why they are part of the Word of God today and it is why we declare them prophets. Because the Word itself says they were.

So determining whether or not Ellen's writings were inspired has nothing to do with these others you mention from scripture because they are part of scripture, thus making them inspired.

So what declares Ellen's writings inspired? And if you believe they were then why not use her writings along side of the "scripture" to determine doctrine?

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

That is a very DIFFERENT question.

The first question you asked was - given that you accept Ellen White as inspired WHY would you claim that she is not writing scripture. And so I gave examples of prophets in scripture that are inspired but NOT authors of scripture. (Or at least that is what I thought you were asking)

NOW you are asking how I would know that Ellen White is inspired. The Bible gives a "Set" of tests for a prophet to know if they are genuine or not. I follow that set of rules - that list to determine if someone truly has the real gift of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12.

The first point is that God Himself is in absolute control of the means and the information communicated.


Numbers 12:1 Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had married a Cushite woman);
2 and they said, ""Has the LORD indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as well?'' And the LORD heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any man who was on the face of the earth.)
4 Suddenly the LORD said to Moses and Aaron and to Miriam, ""You three come out to the tent of meeting.'' So the three of them came out.
5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward,
6 He said, ""Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 ""Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?''
9 So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed.

1 Chron 28
19"All this," said David, "the LORD made me understand in writing, by His hand upon me, all the works of these plans."

2Pet 3:20-21 NO prophecy is a matter of one man's interpretation, for NO prophecy was EVER made by an act of HUMAN will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke FROM GOD.
Other tests include the following --

TESTS

1John 4:2 Must confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
1John 4:6 Must agree with the Apostles, NT prophets - Bible authors, 1Cor 14:32
Isaiah 8:20 Must agree with God's Word - His Law and Testimony
Deut 18:10-22 Must be 100% accurate in predictions
Deut 13:1-3 Call us to Worship God alone - teach no false doctrine
Matt 7:16 Fruit of Holy Spirit - not criminals/wicked/ - their work does not lead away from God/Bible/Gospel
Gal 1:6-8 Preach only ONE Gospel (defined in 1Cor 15:1-7) - do not contradict the ONE Gospel or else cursed.
2Cor 11:4,13 Will not preach a "different Gospel" - else they are false apostles.
Rev 22:18-19 Must not add to - or take away from any book of scripture

So -- when we find Ellen White claiming that God showed her the future or the past or claims that God made some kind of doctrinal statement - we have these texts to guide us in testing each one of those claims.

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Bob, what those prophets said in the scriptures was considered "inspired" and is why they were recorded as scripture. That is why they are part of the Word of God today and it is why we declare them prophets. Because the Word itself says they were.
I want to go back to that point.

This test you point out above "they were already in scripture" could not have been "the test" used by the NT Christians in Corinth OR in any other NT church.

In fact that test could never have been used by the contemporary people of God (not in even Christ) at any time in history.

One could not go to the sermon on the mount - then look in your OT and if Christ's words were there - say "well yes - He is inspired because I see Him speaking here in scripture".

So the first point is that our knowing today that the unnumbered group of prophets mentioned in Corinth (in 1Cor 14) - is "approved" because it is "in scripture" was in no way an "indicator" to the saints at Corinth or in Ephesus or anywhere else - as to how they would know a real prophet from a false one.

The second point is that one must agree that the list of spiritual gifts God gives in 1Cor 12 - are "valid". If they are not - then even those in Corinth would have to all be false prophets. (And of course - we know they are not).

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

So the first point is that our knowing today that the unnumbered group of prophets mentioned in Corinth (in 1Cor 14) - is "approved" because it is "in scripture" was in no way an "indicator" to the saints at Corinth or in Ephesus or anywhere else - as to how they would know a real prophet from a false one.
Agreed, we know they are prophets but they back then would only know by what? They gave prophecy and much of that prophecy came to be within their life time, thus future prophecy which may be hundreds of years down the road, long after they have past, can also be trusted because they already proved that God had spoken through them in the past.

What prophecy did Ellen make which had come true in her life time? It would need to be specific, beyond any shadow of doubt, nothing in any grey area.

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

We have nothing from the prophets of Corinth today that would tell us what they were speaking about - so not much "we" can do to analyze what they were saying.

The point is that NT Christians never had the luxury of evaluating the 1Cor 12 "Gift" of prophecy claimed by a fellow church member - based on the simple test of "finding that church member's name in scripture". I think we agree on that. This means they actually had to use the Biblical tests of a prophet to know who was really a prophet.

(This has been true for God's people at all points in history when dealing with contemporaries).

Ellen White had visions about the past, her present and the future. She had vision about this world, about heaven and to at least a tiny extent -- about other worlds. She saw the second coming, the new Jerusalem, the Millennium, the Lake of Fire, the fall of Lucifer, the war in heaven, the two resurrections and described things like heaven, the repaired relationship between protestants and Catholics in America, the rise of the US to world dominant power, The rise of conservative Christianity to becoming a major political force determining elections and influencing public policy, Christ's ministry in heaven today, the tree of life etc.

So "tons of claims" to be inspired etc.

It is pretty hard to miss the point that she is "claiming" inspiration.

As to whether she really IS inspired is another matter entirely. For that you need to go to the Bible tests of a prophet. Since her visions cover almost every doctrinal point in Adventism it is "safe to say" that she was "claiming" that those doctrines are something God agree with (at the very least). Obviously if the ones she spoke to as being confirmed/affirmed/endorsed by God are found to be false - then the message regarding those doctrines could not possibly have come from God and her claim would be proven to be false.

This is the point I always make when it comes to a Christian in denomination A evaluating a prophet IN denomination B. IF the B prophet claims ANYTHING about God affirming a doctrine that is "different" between A and B - A must always conclude that B is a false prophet.

There is no way around that!

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

Ok, post a prophecy writing of her's and then declare how the event took place within her lifetime. Prophecy always has some precise details which could not be known before it has happened.

God Bless!

[Eric B]

How many Sabbath keeping Christian churches accept evolutionism? How many of them have a problem with members being confused that maybe all they need is an hour in church plus a day in the shopping mall. How many Christians churches that reject evolutionism embrace the gay agenda? So what does this mean? That this one doctrine is what has preserved all the truth in sects that maintain it? Or is it the fact that sabbathkeeping has not become as mainstream as Sunday, in order for enough watered down churches to proliferate in the movement?
On the other hand; look at the progression from SDA to CG7 (adding Passover, rejecting the Trinity in favor of binitariansm, as well as holidays and birthdays), and then Armstrongism (Adding the rest of the Holy Days, tiple tithing, Authoritarianism; bridism ("only true church"), forbidding voting, etc. Then the sacred names rejectng the "pagan""God" in favor of YHWH, and changing all the names in the Bible. And then even more radical groups that reject the deity of Christ, and have compounds that they claim are the only true place where you must be to be saved.
Then there's the Davidians (shepherd's Rod), and then the Branch Davidians.

False religions and practices come about whenever man tries to go his own way; even if it is in the name of God. So that is no way to prove who is right in this issue.

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Ok, post a prophecy writing of her's and then declare how the event took place within her lifetime. Prophecy always has some precise details which could not be known before it has happened.

God Bless! True enough. Although it would be difficult to point to something "In the book of Revalation" and say "here is someting that took place IN John's lifetime that came to pass in his lifetime but with details that nobody else knew" -- agreed?

In the mean time there are about 2000 visions and dreams that Ellen White claimed to have had. I will try to select one that meets the criteria above.

Having said - that - this really has nothing to do with the Sabbath topic as that doctrine must stand or fall based on the Bible evidence alone.

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many Sabbath keeping Christian churches accept evolutionism? How many of them have a problem with members being confused that maybe all they need is an hour in church plus a day in the shopping mall. How many Christians churches that reject evolutionism embrace the gay agenda?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric said --
So what does this mean? That this one doctrine is what has preserved all the truth in sects that maintain it? Or is it the fact that sabbathkeeping has not become as mainstream as Sunday, in order for enough watered down churches to proliferate in the movement?
On the other hand; look at the progression from SDA to ...Whoa - that was some wild leaping on your part.

I am simply pointing out the obvious fact that those churches that stick to a literal creation week (as those would do who honor Christ the Creator's Creation-week Holy Day) are NOT among those who end up swallowing evilutionism and "Downgrading" the day of worship to the "hour of worship" and the fact that ONLY the evolutionist Christian groups ALSO go for the gay agenda in the pulpit. (OR had you not noticed that "yet"?).

IF YOU think it is as common to find SDAS in CG7 AS IT IS to find non-Sabbath keeping Christians reducing the "DAY" of worship to the "HGUR" of worship - you have not been getting out of bed on Sunday.

In Christ,

Bob

[Eric B]

I never said there were any SDA's IN CG7's. I was just mentioning the progression, pointing to the fact that the seventh day movement has problem groups of its own, and it did look like you were claiming that being 7th day is what prevents groups from accepting evolutionism, the gay agenda, or worshipping God in one hour only.
And man of the other 7th day movements do not really accept the "literal" creation, but rather the "re-creation" ism of the gap theory.

What is it with you and this "evilutionism", anyway? I have always noticed, way back from my days of going to the SDA bookstore (right next to the main public library--the one with the famous pair of lions), and reading "Unfolding the Revelation" and "God Cares", and various tracts, the focus the SDA's put on evolutionism. You're just as bad as the CRI of Henry Morris & Company, with all the conspiracy rhetoric. I never could figure out how evolution was supposed to be such a big deal if the main sin of the end times was to be a national Sunday law enforced by Bible-believing Christians; most of whom agreed on a young-earth literal Creation (which they also try to force on everyone), and the SDA's rightly pointed out that their Sunday law comes about from their aim to fight the secularism and humanism of atheistic education. It looks like you would be right beside them in their fight, but then the days of worship would become a conflict. Acting so threatened by a theory does not look objective; especially to those who believe in it, whom you're trying to convince of a Creator.

It's just a theory men have come up with, like all the others in the world. The focus is always more on the men and their "evil" doctrine, than on the Devil, who is the real father of all falsehood. And then, the methods of trying to force all the scientific data to conform to a 6000 year model often have not been convincing. We should just emphasize that all of those kinds of details are believed by faith, and not try to beat them at their methods of proof, and then get angry and denounce them because of their beliefs as if God and the Bible account could directly be proven and they still rejected it.

[BobRyan]

I never said there were any SDA's IN CG7's. I was just mentioning the progression, pointing to the fact that the seventh day movement has problem groups of its own, and it did look like you were claiming that being 7th day is what prevents groups from accepting evolutionism, the gay agenda, or worshipping God in one hour only.
Yes - my point is that in order to embrace evolutionism you must first reject Christ the Creator's teaching on origins and to do that - you can't be honoring Christ the Creator's Creation-memorial.

Once evolutionism is embraced THEN you finally have the basis for the gay agenda and abortion rights taught from the pulpit, because humanism is now the core of your church.

It is a logical and I think (given enough time) inevitable sequence for those that embrace evolutionism.

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob said
In the mean time there are about 2000 visions and dreams that Ellen White claimed to have had. I will try to select one that meets the criteria above.
Here is a link to a site listing a few sample predictions she made

http://www.ellengwhite.info/predictions.htm

The one about Moses Hull is an example of something predicted and fulfilled "in her lifetime".

Another example of something predicted (that is mentioned there) is that the strong Anti-Catholic sentiment of the 1800's and early 1900's would be replaced by a strong American Protestant and Catholic partnership. (We see most of that today). And that eventually this partnership would also include spiritualism - whose acceptance would be first embraced by Catholicism and then later by Protestantism via their connection/partnership with Catholicism.

She also made prediction about the Civil War just prior to the start of that war - when South Carolina was proposing a withdrawal.

A side note of a little "interest" on her predictions regarding tall fireproof buildings in NY burning and crashing to the ground in heaps. That prediction is found in a single chapter in her book "Testimonies to the Church" found in Volume 9 pg 11.

In Christ,

Bob

[ July 06, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

[Alcott]

She's a regular Nostradamus, ain't she?

You're right about that page just covering a "few samples" which have to be bent and twisted to 'mean' something that later happened. And that was really brilliant predicting the Civl War so close to when it began. Surely nobody else saw that coming.

Where is a comprehensive list of all-- at least most-- of her "predictions?"

[BobRyan]

The point being - John wrote the same way. How many events did John predict for his day?

You needed to "view the details" of South Carolina's first proposed withdrawal and actually know something about the politics preceeding the Civil War to understand that your hindsight today is not what they were working with at the time.

Isn't it "amazing" that the prophet's words fit your hindsight but the political thinking and "predictions" of that time did not?

Isn't it interesting that the predictions about American Protestantism and Catholicism so radically "different" from the popular concensus of the 1800's has turned out to be perfectly correct?

It is intersting that when "predicting history" as you are doing - your "predictions" about the Civil War match what she was saying would happen in her future.

And then of course there is the claim about "fireproof buildings" in NY. Why pick on "fireproof" building as the prime example of destruction by fire? Why not Earthquake? There were "other options".

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

However there are even more striking examples of letters written ahead of time for problems in meetings seen - that had not taken place yet.

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

To summarize, Ellen White's late 1901 vision predicted:

Skyscrapers would be built in New York City.
These buildings would be considered fireproof.
An alarm of fire would be followed by people on the ground saying that the "lofty" buildings were "perfectly safe."
They would burn as pitch.
The fire engines wouldn't be able to stop the inferno.
The firemen wouldn't be able to operate their fire engines.
The buildings would fall.
The fearfulness of it all would be unimaginable.
Didn't they miss one key point?

Ellen said... " I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ."

Ellen said that God would do this destruction to these buildings.

Do you believe that God did this Bob?

Why would God send His wrath upon His children? There were many Christians in these buildings as well as many of the firefighters who perished. Did God do this?

God Bless!

[steaver]

I was shown the inhabitants of the earth in the utmost confusion. There was war, bloodshed, want, privation, famine and pestilence, in the land; and as these things were without, God's people began to press together, and cast aside their little difficulties. Self-dignity no longer controlled them. Deep humility took its place. Suffering, perplexity and privation, caused reason to resume its throne, and the passionate and unreasonable man became sane, and acted with discretion and wisdom.
This is WWI?

"Christians pressing together, casting aside their little dificulties" is what ended this war? Was it a war among Christians? Christian against Christian?

Wasn't the Russians on our side in WWI? They are hardly God's people.

My attention was then called from the scene. There seemed to be a little time of peace. Then the inhabitants of the earth were again presented before me, and everything was in the utmost confusion again. Strife, war and bloodshed, with famine and pestilence, raged everywhere. Other nations were engaged in this confusion and war. War caused famine. Want and bloodshed caused pestilence. And then men's hearts will fail them for fear, "and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth."
Notice how also the vision predicted that the second war would involve more nations than the first war. Where? Both quotes say "the inhabitants of the earth". Which begs the question, if the inhabitants of the earth are fighting then who are "the other nations"? Aliens?

History tells us that these wars were deadly, as the vision also indicated:

Is there any other kind of war?

In the vision's descriptions of both wars, famine and pestilence are emphasized. This was also a characteristic of both wars:

As well as all wars.

I like the opinion poll at the end which has no vote for "it doesn't look like prohecy at all".

God Bless!

[steaver]

The one about Moses Hull is an example of something predicted and fulfilled "in her lifetime".
I read through it. She predicted nothing but merely gave "ifs". If Hull does this, this will happen. If Hull does that, that will happen. Which is true for anybody. You reap what you sow.

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

Actually the example with the Catholic Church and Protestants in America is a striking fulfillment - so also the prediction about the Civil War months before it started - based on legislation in South Carolina alone. As stated in the article - neither side expected a "long protracted war" and the southern states had not even decided to align.

Other examples include the insights into the Free Masonry problem for one specific leader where the vision precedes the meeting by a year or more.

There are other examples of this same kind of advance vision and letters written to individuals weeks/months before the information is given or in some cases - before the event seen takes place.


However - as also noted - this really has nothing to do with the Bible evidence for or against Christ's Sabbath and it is not a form of "validation" that would apply even to someone like John.

The is no such thing as a test for John where he must predict events in HIS lifetime if he is also given views of the future. In fact - there is no such test in all of scripture. I am just playing along since in this case she does have some incidents in that category.

In Daniel 2 the vision predicts more empires but does not say "when" the Babylonian empire will end. Daniel was already validated even though he had no specific "local prediction" available.

In Daniel 6 It is predicted that the King will be dethroned "that very night" not 3 months away.

In Daniel 7 we see the progression of 4 empires but there is no idication about how long the first 4 empires will rule.

Daniel is validated by the actual tests of a prophet.

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

The is no such thing as a test for John where he must predict events in HIS lifetime if he is also given views of the future. John was already validated BY scripture prior to delivering Revelation. He was a personally chosen disciple and a chosen apostle BY Christ Himself. Unless you do not accept scripture.

What about New York? I would like your thoughts.

Didn't they miss one key point?

Ellen said... " I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ."

Ellen said that God would do this destruction to these buildings.

Do you believe that God did this Bob?

Why would God send His wrath upon His children? There were many Christians in these buildings as well as many of the firefighters who perished. Did God do this?
God Bless!

[BobRyan]

Again - this has nothing to do with the Bible evidence for or against Christ the Creator's Holy day --- but...

#1. There were many infants and children destroyed in the flood. Are you asking me if God would ever allow evil to damage infants as in the case of NY? Are you asking if the reference to "tall fireproof buildings burning rapidly" is "coincidence"?

#2. Are you saying that Thomas and John were both writing scripture because both were Apostles? Are you saying that there was no need for John to "predict something for HIS DAY" to be a valid Prophet? Are you saying that Daniel was not a "prophet" in Daniel 2 - until he later gets a message about an event in "his day"??

In any case - the Civil War example, The WWI and WWII example, The RCC and Protestant America Example, the secrets of the Masonic cult that were revealed to one of its practicing members, the account of a man who affirmed that Ellen White's first vision was the same one given to him prior to her vision. One that he tried to relate only after telling God he would not take up that ministry.

BTW - I hope you are not taking this as an effort to convince anyone about Ellen White. I am simply showing that I HAVE reasons to consider her claims to the gift of 1Cor 12 that include BOTH the type of predictions that the Bible shows in cases like John AND some other shorter term predictions.

As for John - he wrote after most of the other Apostles had moved out of Jerusalem or were killed. THEY would not have known him as a Bible writer. Paul says that ALL -- even Apostles are to be tested. (Gal 1:6-11) -- even if the source is "angel from heaven" the Bible tests still apply.

In Christ,

Bob

[steaver]

Hi Bob,

Allow me to clarify what I am asking...

Didn't they miss one key point?

Ellen said... " I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ."

Ellen said that God would do this destruction to these buildings.

Do you believe that God did this Bob?


God Bless!

[steaver]

Just a bump so my question doesn't get lost. graemlins/thumbs.gif

God Bless!

[BobRyan]

I believe God killed many infants, children and men and women in the flood. Far more than in Sept 11 of 2001 in NY.

I believe the tall buildings in NY were skyscrapers claimed to be "fireproof".

I believe that the point of the works of man - built to glorify man and based on money that is in some cases aquired on the backs of the poor is a charge that can be applied to any large city.

Note - I am just sticking with the obvious here.

Bob

[BobRyan]

BTW - there are also statements there about the large cost of the Civil war and the North being right in fighting against slavery but being punished for allowing it to continue for so long.

Many "uncomfortable" ideas for for sinful world.

In the case of the Sabeans in the story of Job - their attack on Job and his family was not a "vindication" of their pagan ideas.

This is also true of the pagan nations that won victories against Israel. It was never a case of the "God's vindication" of those pagan nations that attacked His people. The fact that God allows something to happen - only after giving warning after warning - is not a kind of "validation" of whatever pagan army is used as a tool in the event.

However - as to "why" - this is the focus of a thread on "Sabbath and a much misunderstood text" is beyond me.

In Christ,

Bob