Monastic Life?

[TP]

Greetings,

On another evangelical board there was an interesting discussion about Monastic life. In this life a person decides to live with like minded people who's main desire is to worship God in prayer. Many times throughout the day the community will gather and sing the Psalms, and have mass every day. Between these community prayers they will do their work(farms, bakeries, retreat work, professors), do private prayer, serve the needs of guests. If you have NO experience of a monestary or their life, here is a link to a monestary:

http://www.newmelleray.org/

With all this in Mind: Do baptists or anyone else have any theological or sociological problem with someone giving their life to God in such a way. If so, please explain WHY this is wrong or bad. If you are indifferent: Everyone can choose their own life-- you can comment, but it will probably not be exciting. If this is intriquing or positive, then you can also comment. I am curious about different religious lifestyles.

peace

[D28guy]

TP,

"On another evangelical board there was an interesting discussion about Monastic life. In this life a person decides to live with like minded people who's main desire is to worship God in prayer....Do baptists or anyone else have any theological or sociological problem with someone giving their life to God in such a way."Of course I have great GREAT difficulies with Catholicism. Due mainly to its contradictions to truth in foundational areas, superstitions, idolatries, etc, but...although some will probably disagree with me here...I have no problem at all with those who are called into a very insulated and prayerful calling.

Those who disagree with this will probably site the passages that call us to "GO into all the world, and preach the gospel", not "Go into all the world and then retreat from it." And I agree that those scriptures are indeed a very clear calling to us to do just that.

But I see what you are speaking of as being an example of all of us being gifted in different ways. The scriptures use the analogy that some are an eye, some an ear, etc. One shouldnt say that they have no need of the other.

Someone who seperates themselves into a very insulated and prayerfull community would indeed be "going into all the world to preach the gospel"(IF they are proclaiming the true gospel, of course), but in a much different way than most.

God bless,

Mike

[billwald]

I think the protestants err in rejecting monasticism. There are some people that life fits very well.

[TP]

Greetings,

The Anglicans have some monestaries and Taize is an ecumenical religious community(however, many of the monks at Taize have recently become catholic).

peace

[violet]

I've always been curious about Taize because we have "The Taize Picture Bible" (which has beautiful illustrations). I didn't know it was ecumenical. Can you provide a link?

btw, I have no problem with religious, either cloistered or not. smile.gif

[TP]

Greetings

Taize Community

http://www.taize.fr/en

peace

[D28guy]

Here is a community on an island just off the coast of Scotland. The Island is Iona, and its called The Iona Community. Its an ecumenical christian Celtic community.

What caused me to check them out is that my favorite contemporary christian band is IONA, a contemporary Celtic fusion band. I found out that their name comes from that island, and so I googled it and found the web-site for the community.

(I have no idea if the band is associated with the community, or if the common name is just a coincidence.)

Here is a link...

The Iona Community (http://www.iona.org.uk/)

God bless,

Mike

[TP]

Greetings,

When I began this thread, I thought there would be some disagreement and arguing. However, I had never thought of the Ecumenical manifestations of monastic life such as Taize, and I had never heard of the Iona Community. I really enjoyed exploring their website. I could even see a visit there some day.

This thread didn't get the Traffic I had expected, however I really enjoyed the direction it went. Ecumenical communities where Christians of different backgrounds can at least come together in common prayer and life. What a great thing. This is one of those precious contraverial threads.

peace

[Kiffen]

Here is a "baptistic" type Evangelical Monastary. http://prayerfoundation.org/index.htm

[D28guy]

TP,

"When I began this thread, I thought there would be some disagreement and arguing."Actually, I anticipated it as well, even mentioning it sort of "matter of factly" in my 1st post.

"However, I had never thought of the Ecumenical manifestations of monastic life such as Taize, and I had never heard of the Iona Community. I really enjoyed exploring their website. I could even see a visit there some day."For some reason there seems to be a general perception that "monks", Monestaries, and a lifestyle of seclusion, prayer, and even a bit of mysticism are uniquely "Catholic" things.

But we do have those things in the non-Catholic world as well, although for some reason they seem to fly "under the radar" more than in the Catholic world.

"This thread didn't get the Traffic I had expected, however I really enjoyed the direction it went. Ecumenical communities where Christians of different backgrounds can at least come together in common prayer and life. What a great thing. This is one of those precious contraverial threads."There is another forum where I sometimes post. They have...right on the theology boards...a thread called "the no topic fluff thread". The point is that its the exact opposite all the other threads in the theology.

Just like on BB, there are threads all over the place that get pretty intense sometimes. People are passionate about theology. We vigorously argue, we contend, we get a bit heated sometimes, etc etc. And if people only go there they would think that we would kill one another if we were ever in the same room together.

But the point of the "No Topic Fluff Thread" is that its basically a "talking over the back fence" type of thread. No argueing. No theology. Nothing *serious* at all. Jokes are fine, Silliness is fine. Good natured ribbing is fine. Griping about the weather is fine. Congratulating someone on some accomplishment is fine. Sharing advice regarding how to properly plant flowers, or how to shoot a jump shot are fine. Sharing a heartbreak is fine, and is consoling a heartbroken one.

And it becomes obvious real quick that all of us who seem so much to dislike the other side whom we are argueing against dont actually dislike each other at all. It just seems like it. Its an illusion. We just feel very passionate about the isolated topic...theology...that we are discussing.

It becomes obvious that if we all...evangelicals, catholics, charismatics, liberals, conservatives, eastern orthodox, baptists, etc...were all neighbors on the same street we would watch out for one another, invite everyone to barbecues, cheer for the same sports team, watch others homes when they are gone a vacation, etc.

In other words, we would love one another with Christs love and generally get along fine. smile.gif

God bless,

Mike

[violet]

You know, the world and secularism is our bigger enemy than each other. Sometimes I can't stand coming here because it seems that WE are each other's enemy...

[dianetavegia]

Violet, your remark reminds me of this verse:

Ecclesiastes 10:10 If the iron is blunt, and one does not sharpen the edge, he must use more strength, but wisdom helps one to succeed.

Even tho it seems we bicker and fight,

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

May God use these discussions to prepare us for the true battle!

Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

[violet]

I have no problem with debate (which is why I do enjoy coming back here. ;) ), but sometimes the comments get sarcastic and mean-spirited. I just wonder what it would be like if our conversation were taking place on big compfy couches and we all had a cup of something yummy to drink and we saw each other face to face. I'm not pointing fingers (I can toss out a sarcastic remark just like anyone else). Just that the internet lends itself to downward spiraling conversations sometimes...

[violet]

And getting back to the topic...

I think if there were a monastic-like community for families, my husband would want to move there. Of course all of our family and friends would think we had moved to a "compound" and might freak out.

[TP]

Greetigns,

You asked about a community for families. Since you don't speak italian this is probably not for you, but it is a fun site to browse:

http://www.nomadelfia.it/usa/

However, I do believe that with Liturgy of the Hours, the family community can be seen in view of a type of religous community. Dad/mom are the ministers and the children are community.

peace

[violet]

You assume, of course que io no parlo italiano. ;) Ok, that's about the only thing I can say in Italian. Thanks for the link. It does look interesting. (and I love Tuscany... )

I never actually thought of the LotH as a familial religious community. Interesting....

[Marcia]

If a community is training/preparing people and using them to serve in the wider community and to be salt and light in the world, that is one thing. But if it's to withdraw from the world, I don't think that's biblical.

[billwald]

You don't think devoting one's live to prayer and study is biblical?

[dianetavegia]

Billwald asked: You don't think devoting one's live to prayer and study is biblical?

Diane answers: Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Luke 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. 34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. 35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. 36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

Mark 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick? 22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. 23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. 25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. 26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; 27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. 28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. 29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come. 30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? 31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: 32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Devoting one's live to prayer and study is admirable but prayer should be for others and the study should benefit those whom we are sent to disciple!

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

[D28guy]

Diane,

Devoting one's live to prayer and study is admirable but prayer should be for others and the study should benefit those whom we are sent to disciple!I heard someone once sharing about his life at this retreat place...a monastary if you will (he was not catholic)...and he said one of the things that he prayed the most for...and the most fervantly for...was that God would greatly bless and open doors for all those anywhere in the world who we actively proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that many would embrace Christ through their efforts.

I would liken brothers and sisters like that to the pit crew at an automobile race like the Indianapolis 500. The driver crosses the finish line, but could he have won if the pit crew did not refuel him when he came in to the pit area?

God bless,

Mike

[dianetavegia]

Diane answers: John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

Not under a bushel.... but the nations!


Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

The driver crosses the finish line, but could he have won if the pit crew did not refuel him when he came in to the pit area?
If the pit crew reads the manuals but never puts that knowledge into action...

[ July 04, 2005, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

[D28guy]

Diane,

"If the pit crew reads the manuals but never puts that knowledge into action..."But they are putting their knowledge into action. They refuel the car when it comes in. That is their part of the race. The drivers part is driving, the pit crews part is refueling.

The point I'm making is that prayer works, and I have no doubt you agree with that.

I'm sure you probably heard about the study that was done several years ago with the people praying for patients who were very sick in several hospitals.

It was what is called a "double blind" study, which basically means it pretty makes any kind of skewed results...due to prejudgice, bias, etc...impossible.

There were a large group of christians who were given people to pray for. I believe they agreed to pray often and fervently for the person they were given. All they knew was that each unidentified person was in serious condition at one of these hospitals.

When the study was finished and the results were studied it was very clearly shown that the patients who were prayed for starting on the chosen date...and they themselves had no idea about the study at all, thats the "double blind" part...showed very clearly that they did substantially better than those who were not prayed for.

So...we know prayer works. And if prayer works, than people who are devoting themselves to praying for people who are proclaiming the gospel..and that can mean you or I speaking with a neighbor or an evangelist or pastor...are contributing just as much as those doing the sharing.

Wouldnt you agree?

Mike

[dianetavegia]

Positively Mike!

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I think RETREATS and sabbaticals are a wonderful idea! I do not think we should all become 'holy men on top of the mountain' but that most of us need to put feet to the Gospel!

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Scripture tells us to get away and pray! Making it a lifestyle is another thing. As a missionary, as a worker at an orphanage, a leper colony, a T.B. clinic, a homeless shelter, an AIDS ward... and in a quiet closet with just Jesus. smile.gif

[Marcia]

I agree with Diane.

D28guy, are you sure that study was with Christians? How did they define "Christians?" All the studies I know about have included non-Christians praying.

Also, how is success measured? If someone dies, is that failure? So if 80% get better and 20% die, does that mean God failed in 20% of the cases? Maybe it's their time to go and maybe the true healing is when they die.

The big guy who started this prayer thing, Larry Dossey, is a New Ager.

[mioque]

Quoted from the link in the first post.

"New Melleray is a Cistercian (Trappist) monastery located in the rolling farmland south of Dubuque, Iowa. We support ourselves by farming and making wooden caskets"
"
what disturbing novelty is this. Trappisten who don't brew beer for a living? ;)

[D28guy]

Marcia,

I mentioned the "double blind" prayer study and the hospital patients, and you said...

D28guy, are you sure that study was with Christians? How did they define "Christians?" All the studies I know about have included non-Christians praying.Its been quite a while. This was back in the late 80's or very early 90's. I thought it was christians praying, but my memory could be failing me. I remember it made the rounds in the christian community back then. It was a "hot" thing that got around pretty quickly. There was no internet then I dont think, but it seems I heard about it on radio programs...maybe Dobson or some talk program.

Also, how is success measured? If someone dies, is that failure? So if 80% get better and 20% die, does that mean God failed in 20% of the cases? Maybe it's their time to go and maybe the true healing is when they die.As best as I can remember, the ones prayed for got better. I'd say I'm pretty sure about that part, because that really was what grabbed me about it.

The big guy who started this prayer thing, Larry Dossey, is a New Ager.I dont know if this is the one he was involved with or another one. I'll do some "googling" and see what I can come up with.

God bless,

Mike

[mioque]

Everybody but especially Diane&Marcia

It ought to be pointed out that there are 2 types of monastic orders.
I. There are active orders that focus mostly on going out into the world and doing stuff. You know all those nuns that are schoolteachers, or nurses in hospitals? Most likely members of those active orders. Overhere it used to be so common that it was normal to adress any nurse as sister.
II. There are contemplative orders that focus more on the holy man on the mountain thing. One can question on an individual level if their lifestyle is such a good idea, collectively however contemplatives have accomplished great things. For one thing Christianity would have died out in Egypt without them. For another, all those handwritten medieval manuscripts of the Bible? Copied by contemplative monks.
It is rather typical that seperation is a respectable thing if baptist Fundies practice it and bad if anybody else does it.

[Marcia]

D28, as far as I know, the studies include all religions and would certainly include those who are Christian in name only. Also, some studies would categorize Mormons and JWs as Christians. Another problem is that other factors are not considered with the results, such as how sick the person was, how much treatment they were getting, how healthy they were to begin with, age of the patients, etc. Also, one would have to trust those who said they were praying that they really did so. Self-reports such as this in studies make them very dubious.

I wrote this in a newsletter I sent out last year. Notice the quote from Claudia Kalb that different denominations have never been taken into account in these studies as far as she knows.
The November 10 issue of Newsweek, in an article, “Faith and Healing,” addressed the topic of prayer and healing, pointing out problems such as “measuring” the prayers for a sick person. Prayers from all religions are used in these studies. The author, Claudia Kalb, was asked, “Is there a difference in the rate of recovery and death rates in hospitals with respect to denominational differences?” and she responded, “As far as I know, this has never been studied, and I doubt it ever will be. While researchers may be interested in scientifically testing the role of faith in health, I haven't come across any who want to compare, or even worse, pit, one religion against another.” Kalb proposes that maybe one day we will be able to measure the “energy” of prayer (http://www.msnbc.com/m/nw/talk/archive.asp?lt=110603_kalb).

Also, Christians should think about the fact that many times God does not heal the person, despite prayers, for His own reasons. Should that count as a failure? Of course not. Sometimes, God taking a believer home may be the “healing” or "getting better." This is not failure, either. Yet it will count as a failure in these studies.