Why become Catholic?

[BobRyan]

I am asking this question with particular focus on those members here on this board that claim to have come to this board as non-Catholics but are now (after x-years) turning toward Catholicism.

The fact is - we have not seen anything from Catholic posting or even pro-catholic non-catholic posting that has shown anything like serious Bible study EVEN when it comes to things like John 6 (Supposedly a strong point for Catholics!!).

They flee from the details of the texts just like "life long Catholics"!!

They all "seem" to focus on certain errors that crept into the church after the first century NT saints as well as some other "incidentals" about Catholicism with almost no regard for scripture when it comes to those points that seriously challenge Catholicism!

I find this amazing - that a non-Catholic would jump on to that form of "any-old-trick-for-Catholicism" style of Bible study.

This forum has got to be a good place to dig into that phenomina a little better. IF there is no strong Bible argument for going into the errors of Catholicism from the outside - then what is the attraction? Where is the "plus" for stepping into a religion so steeped in the superstitions, paganism and bloody history of the dark ages - the period of time in Europe where IT REIGNED SUPREME!??

Where is the attraction??

Someone please prioritize a list of the strongest and then next-strongest motivators (etc) for taking that leap into the dark caverns of man-made tradition in Catholicism.

Purgatory? Praying to the dead? Mary sinless LIKE Christ, co-redeemer, co-mediatrix, LAteran IV "Extermination of Heretics", Historica Papal atrocities? Popes fighting EACH OTHER killing fellow Catholics?

In Christ,

Bob

[violet]

Why would anyone in their right mind answer you when you are so patronizing?

[TP]

Greetings,

From what I have seen is Catholics doing a fine job of biblical rearch, but Just because YOU refuse to believe them, you say they are fleeing from the bible.

Please do not think that because we disagree with YOU that we are fleeing from the Bible. We love the scriptures and take our study of the scriptures seriously, and pray the Holy Spirit guide us in our study. Just because our interpretation is different from yours does not mean we are anti-biblical in any way.

peace

[TP]

Greetings,

I am CAtholic Because of Jesus Christ. He not only saved me from my sin, but also made me a child of God as he filled me with his divine life. I entered into that paschal mystery of his death and resurretion at my baptism, and I encounter that paschal mystery anew at every mass as I renew the covenant with Jesus christ. The Holy Spirit has Contiually convicted my Heart that the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth.
I look at the 2000 years of MOST holy Saints and Martyrs who witnessed to the grace of Jesus Christ with their very Lives. Pick up a book of saints and see how the Love of Christ can transform. I would encourage you to stop 'Protesting' and beging exploring. As you enter the fullness of truth you will be shocked at the totality of what Christ is offering.

peace

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by TP:
From what I have seen is Catholics doing a fine job of biblical rearch,

We love the scriptures and take our study of the scriptures seriously, and pray the Holy Spirit guide us in our study.

Just because our interpretation is different from yours does not mean we are anti-biblical in any way.
Catholics can only research what the Catholic church teaches about Scripture. The church alone is allowed to interpret it. In these circumstances you can not know if your teaching is anti-Biblical because those who are teaching the anti-biblical doctrine tell you that doctrine is biblical. Since they also tell you that they are the only ones who can interpret it correctly and know for sure, you have no way of ever testing them. So you must assume they are right. That hardly constitutes "biblical" research.

What catholics research is what church fathers said about the scriptures, and that is not the same thing.

~Lorelei

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by TP:

I look at the 2000 years of MOST holy Saints and Martyrs who witnessed to the grace of Jesus Christ with their very Lives. Pick up a book of saints and see how the Love of Christ can transform. Pick up a history book sometime, you will find there are many who were martyred because of your church, not for it.

~Lorelei

[john6:63]

Originally posted by violet:
Why would anyone in their right mind answer you when you are so patronizing? Especially coming from someone who’s own denomination has all the hallmarks of a cult and IS considered a cult in all Protestant circles.

[BobRyan]

This is where our Catholic "leaning" brethren geet to show their "true colors" -- and how colorful it has been!!

I always say that given enough time and rope they will ...

Seriously - I had hoped that the Catholic contigent had at least one substantive response in it.

I am sure that ANY other group could EASILY have reponded "substantively" as to why they have selected their denomination.

The "details" that were ignored in John 6 have been posted AND enumerated several times. Still NOT ONE response!!

The OP asked for a list of top reasons/motivators for making the switch with some kind of priority given to it -- still not ONE substantive reply.

However I do credit TP with making a serious response. But I am hoping for the response to the details - in detail.

In Christ,

Bob

[violet]

You have not yet answered my question. Your continued condesending attitude when anyone posts anything with which you disagree makes it highly unlikely that anyone will give you an answer. If we believed that you were truly interested and not merely looking for another target to attack, perhaps someone would.

[Joseph_Botwinick]

There is no reason to become a Catholic and many reasons to leave the Catholic Church as far as I can see.

Joseph Botwinick

[Living4Him]

The main reason I came home to the Catholic Church after being in an IFB Church for 35 years.....

THE REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist.

Bob, I believe the reason that people do not answer your The "details" that were ignored in John 6 have been posted AND enumerated several times. Still NOT ONE response!!could be because your objections are somewhat absurd and we have explained the position on John 6 in many different ways.

To those who believe no explanation is necessary. To those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.

Receiving my Lord and Savior in the Holy Eucharist is the most profound way to grow closer to my Lord. His Body & Blood strengths me both physically and spiritually.

My love and devotion to my Savior is even deeper now that I receive Him in the Holy Eucharist.

[D28guy]

Living4Him,

"Receiving my Lord and Savior in the Holy Eucharist is the most profound way to grow closer to my Lord."Even though the scriptures proclaim that we recieve the Lord Jesus Christ by faith alone, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, and grow in Him in the same way?...

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the gospel of your salvation, in whom you also, having believed, were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarentee of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession."

"Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who has also sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarentee"

"...that they may all be one"...(and Praise God we are!)...as You, Father are in me, and I in You, that they may also be one in Us, that the world may know that You sent me. And the glory wich you gave me I have given them, that they might be one as We are one. I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them as you have loved me."

For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them".

God bless,

Mike

[Sirach]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I am asking this question with particular focus on those members here on this board that claim to have come to this board as non-Catholics but are now (after x-years) turning toward Catholicism.

The fact is - we have not seen anything from Catholic posting or even pro-catholic non-catholic posting that has shown anything like serious Bible study EVEN when it comes to things like John 6 (Supposedly a strong point for Catholics!!).

They flee from the details of the texts just like "life long Catholics"!!

They all "seem" to focus on certain errors that crept into the church after the first century NT saints as well as some other "incidentals" about Catholicism with almost no regard for scripture when it comes to those points that seriously challenge Catholicism!

I find this amazing - that a non-Catholic would jump on to that form of "any-old-trick-for-Catholicism" style of Bible study.

This forum has got to be a good place to dig into that phenomina a little better. IF there is no strong Bible argument for going into the errors of Catholicism from the outside - then what is the attraction? Where is the "plus" for stepping into a religion so steeped in the superstitions, paganism and bloody history of the dark ages - the period of time in Europe where IT REIGNED SUPREME!??

Where is the attraction??

Someone please prioritize a list of the strongest and then next-strongest motivators (etc) for taking that leap into the dark caverns of man-made tradition in Catholicism.

Purgatory? Praying to the dead? Mary sinless LIKE Christ, co-redeemer, co-mediatrix, LAteran IV "Extermination of Heretics", Historica Papal atrocities? Popes fighting EACH OTHER killing fellow Catholics?

In Christ,

Bob Bob,

Everytime a Catholic tries to answer it seems like they get banned. If Christians who believe different than Catholics have the truth, then we have nothing to fear from what any Catholic would post.

I have seen numerous answers to the things you pose above on Catholic sites that have reasonable answers, we may not agree with them but they are still reasonable. We are not infallible in our interpretation of Scripture, therefore what right have we to judge them if they Holy Spirit has guided them to interpret the scriptures the way that they do?


You will not be able win Catholics until at least you actually write what the Catholic Church really teaches. Why would one answer your questions here when they know that they'll get banned? Anyone can go to any site like Catholic.com and find out why Catholics believe what they do.

I do not understand why you keep writing falsehoods about the Catholic Faith. The most you can say against the Catholic Church is that they have a diffrent interpretation of Scripture than you... which is what you can say about people in your own church.

God Bless,
Sirach

[Charles Meadows]

As an ex-catholic my perspective is a little different.

I never rejected Rome as a youth - I simply drifted into academic agnosticism. When I realized the nothingness of life without God I began to look.

In the baptists churches I saw groups of people who love the Lord and come to church because of that. I saw people whose lives reflected Christ OUTSIDE of church as well as inside.

When I began to examine things in terms of biblical Christianity I saw some significant problems with the catholic doctrines on things like Mary, papal infallibility, and the eucharist.

That being said I think there are plenty of catholic churches which epitomize the qualities I found in the baptist churches. And I do NOT find the catholic "problems" so significant that I would consider catholicism nonChristian.

Looking back at the RCC I appreciate the reverence of worship, the emphasis on good works, and the (often times) mature approach to biblical theology (not insisting on literal interpretation all the time). The main thing that kept me away is the veneration of Mary.

And I agree with some of the RCC guys here - most catholic-bashing evangelicals DON'T have the facts right anyway. That never helps anything.

[TP]

Greetings,

You said: In these circumstances you can not know if your teaching is anti-Biblical because those who are teaching the anti-biblical doctrine tell you that doctrine is biblical.

Response: CAtholics are taught to read scriptures. The Words are right there for them to read. They are NOT stupid. Do you think EVERY CAtholic has priest hovering over them and every time they read the bible they get slapped with a ruler?
Catholics will sit in their living room and read/pray the bible like every other type of Christian. They are encouraged to dive into the scriptures and study them as well. I don't know what you are talking about in your discription of how catholics read the bible.

peace

[D28guy]

TP,

It was said...

In these circumstances you can not know if your teaching is anti-Biblical because those who are teaching the anti-biblical doctrine tell you that doctrine is biblical."And you said...

CAtholics are taught to read scriptures. The Words are right there for them to read. They are NOT stupid.Nobody is saying they are forbidden to read the scriptures.

Do you think EVERY CAtholic has priest hovering over them and every time they read the bible they get slapped with a ruler?Not literally, but you...as a Catholic Priest...know full well (as we all do) that Catholics do not have the freedom to read the scriptures with a fully free and open mind, expecting God to do as He promised and guide them into all truth.

The Catholic is under obligation to submit to the interpretations of the Catholic Church "Teaching Magesterium" regarding doctrine.

Here it is from the Catholic Catechism:

"The Bible had been committed to the care of the living magisterium. It was the Church's part to guard the Bible, to present it to the faithful in authorized editions or accurate translations, it was for her to make known the nature and value of the Divine Book by declaring what she knew regarding its inspiration and inerrancy, it was for her to supply the key by explaining why and how it had been inspired, how it contained Revelation, how the proper object of that Revelation was not purely human instruction but a religious and moral doctrine with a view to our supernatural destiny and the means to attain it, how, the Old Testament being a preparation and annunciation of the Messias and the new dispensation, there might be found beneath the husk of the letter typical meanings, figures, and prophecies. It was for the Church in consequence to determine the authentic canon, to specify the special rules and conditions for interpretation, to pronounce in case of doubt as to the exact sense of a given book or text, and even when necessary to safeguard the historical, prophetical, or apologetic value of a given text or passage, to pronounce in certain questions of authenticity, chronology, exegesis, or translation, either to reject an opinion compromising the authority of the book or the veracity of its doctrine or to maintain a given body of revealed truth contained in a given text. It was above all for the Church to circulate the Divine Book by minting its doctrine, adapting and explaining it, by offering it and drawing from it nourishment wherewith to nourish souls, briefly by supplementing the book, making use of it, and assisting others to make use of it. This is the debt of Scripture to the living magisterium.....As regards Biblical interpretation properly so called the Church is infallible in the sense that, whether by authentic decision of pope or council, or by its current teaching that a given passage of Scripture has a certain meaning, this meaning must be regarded as the true sense of the passage in question.Link... click here (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm)

That is a satanic view that is held by the Jehovahs Witnesses, the Mormons, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and just about every cult or "ism" I've ever known anything about. This view says that...

"We know what the scriptures mean. We interpret it, and you must believe everything we tell you it says and means. You need us to do that for you."


Catholics will sit in their living room and read/pray the bible like every other type of Christian.Except that every other christian is free to expect God to open their understanding to truth Himself...leading and guiding them into truth. Sound christian groups never place themselves between God and the christian as the JW', Catholics, and Mormon groups do.

They are encouraged to dive into the scriptures and study them as well.As long as they come precisely to the exact conclusions that the Magesterium of The Hierarchy tells them the scriptures mean. Thats whey the Catholic Church pushes Catechism instruction much more forcfully than the scriptures.

I was a Catholic for the 1st 24 years of my life...8 years of parochial school education including catechism classs for all those years. I know that of which I speak.

I don't know what you are talking about in your discription of how catholics read the bible.I believe you do.

God bless,

Mike

[Sirach]

Mike,

A Catholic Priest is going to know what the Church teaches better than you.

Also, you fail to think about the bible verses that the Catholic Church points out to prove the Magisterium... Read St. John 14 a few times. Christ clearly tells the Apostles that the Church will be guided by the Holy Spirit, in all truth.

Not in some truth Mike, all truth. Do you believe Jesus? I do, and every Catholic I know does.

In Matt, Christ Himself tells people to "tell the Church". Surely you should know these verses and must admit that they are reasonable... unless you are infallible. You fail at being a Christian when you call Catholics satanic. It shows ignorance, self righteous, judgemental mentality.

You are not going to have a clear view of the Catholic Church by looking at snippets and taking them out of context. If you were a Catholic the first 24 years of your life, you missed a lot of what they really teach, and why.

Again, here we go, you are arguing against something that you do not understand, until you understand it, your arguments will be pointless.


God Bless,
Sirach

[ July 04, 2005, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

[Briony-Gloriana]

I guess Bob the main reason why there are members of the RCC is because Jesus Christ insituted the church but hey lets just ignore this any any other fact that does not fit comfortably with the humanism of many churches.

Your antipathy to the RCC is comical but terrifying at the same time.

[DHK]

Originally posted by Sirach:
Mike,

A Catholic Priest is going to know what the Church teaches better than you.Or otherwise put: A Catholic priest is going to know how to defend a man-made doctrine like purgatory from the Bible better me. Now that is true. It is true, because it can't be defended from the Bible. It can't be defended from the Bible because it is not taught in the Bible, but the Catholic Church teaches these damnable heresies anyway.

Also, you fail to think about the bible verses that the Catholic Church points out to prove the Magisterium... Read St. John 14 a few times. Christ clearly tells the Apostles that the Church will be guided by the Holy Spirit, in all truth. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I have probably read John 14 more times than you can ever count. Is this the verse that you are thinking of? You need to examine it very closely. It is one of those verses that has application to the apostles only.
Think. The Holy Spirit...shall teach you ALL things.
He shall bring ALL things to your remembrance.
Those things that He brings to their remembrance are the very things that He has spoken to them.

Has Jesus spoken directly to you? If so what has he told you? Would you care to share it with us.

The answer (the proper interpretation) is that the Holy Spirit promised the Apostles that he would bring back to their memories everything that Christ had spoken to them, so that they could write it down in the gospel records without error. In this way we have the infallible Word of God. Christ is here promising us that we will have an inspired accurate record of His Word. It was the Apostles that Christ promised the Holy Spirit would reveal ALL things that Jesus said unto them. He never promised that the Holy Spirit would reveal all the words of Christ to the Magesterium. How utterly ridiculous a thought.

Not in some truth Mike, all truth. Do you believe Jesus? I do, and every Catholic I know does. Yes I believe Jesus, do you? That is the question. I believe Jesus over the Magesterium any day.

In Matt, Christ Himself tells people to "tell the Church". Surely you should know these verses and must admit that they are reasonable... unless you are infallible. You fail at being a Christian when you call Catholics satanic. It shows ignorance, self righteous, judgemental mentality.You are very arrogant to assume that these verses even apply to the Catholic Church. Being objective and using sources outside of the biased Catholic sources, you will find that there is a general concensus that the origin of the Catholic Church wasn't until the fourth century. Thus the church being addressed had nothing to do with the paganized Catholic Church that started in the time of Constantine, a church that never had the blessing of God.

You are not going to have a clear view of the Catholic Church by looking at snippets and taking them out of context. If you were a Catholic the first 24 years of your life, you missed a lot of what they really teach, and why.On the contrary, if I know D26guy right (I also was in the Catholic Church 20 years before Christ delivered me from its clutches), I was indoctrinated with both its doctrines and its history. After leaving the Catholic Church, I began to study the Bible. It was then I saw the contraditions between the Bible and the RCC; contraditions too large to be reconciled. After that I went to the area of history and saw that genuine history had been tampered with by the Catholic Church. Most history that we had been taught was Catholic revisionist history. The actual facts of the Spanish Inquistion, the reason for the Dark Ages, etc. were never given. Little detail about the slaughter of the Muslims by so-called Christians was given, except that they were "Christian" in nature. Of course no Christian would be involved in such ungodly, bloody, ruthless campaigns in slaughtering thousands of innocent people. The Muslims were one thing, but the crusades against the Godly living Albigenses?? You have got to be kidding?

Again, here we go, you are arguing against something that you do not understand, until you understand it, your arguments will be pointless.I understand perfectly how Catholics revise history to fit their own means and purposes.

Here are a few resources that you should be able to refute if you want to prove the Catholic Church wrong....


God Bless,
Sirach Give me one good reason why I should go to Catholic sources to prove Catholic history. Should I go to the Book of Mormon to prove all the historical innacuracies of the Book of Mormon.
I have a good idea. Why not go to the Book of Mormon to prove that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. That is what the Book of Mormon says, therefore it must be true. I can prove it from the Book of Mormon. It doesn't matter what the other sources say, does it. As long as it is in the Book of Mormon it must be correct, right?

That is your exact attitude to Catholic history!
DHK

[ July 04, 2005, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

[DHK]

Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
I guess Bob the main reason why there are members of the RCC is because Jesus Christ insituted the church but hey lets just ignore this any any other fact that does not fit comfortably with the humanism of many churches.

Your antipathy to the RCC is comical but terrifying at the same time. Is it not strange how the Catholic Church can not prove one Scripture, in fact any evidence at all, that Jesus instituted the Catholic Church. I request you withdraw that statement, unless you can back it up with valid evidence. It is a worthless claim.
DHK

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by violet:
You have not yet answered my question. Your continued condesending attitude when anyone posts anything with which you disagree makes it highly unlikely that anyone will give you an answer. If we believed that you were truly interested and not merely looking for another target to attack, perhaps someone would. You are simply "excusing" another post without anything by way of response to the OP with the claim that "Non-Catholics don't agree with Catholicism" as IF that is a "reason" not to "show your work".

It is not compelling.

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
I guess Bob the main reason why there are members of the RCC is because Jesus Christ insituted the church
"The church" yes - but why use that to embrace the errors and myths of the RCC denomination??

If those who have always been RC want to say "here are my top 3 compelling reasons" that is fine (try to pick something that will have a chance of appearing to be well-reasoned or even compelling to those Christians that are not RC).

But primarily I am looking for those who claim to have come here and then over the years CHANGED to a "wanna-be-RC" mindset. What are the top 5 or 10 or 3 reasons.

(Hopefully this will be something that is well reasoned as well).

I just don't see either of those groups making Bible based arguments "from details" in John 6 EVEN when we post those details WITH NUMBERS on them!! They flee the text that is supposed to be a strong suit for them!!

How in the world then - can they still hold up their head and say "yes I would seriously consider jumping on to such a baseless platform".

Is it the record (given by RC HISTORIANS themselves!) of Popes torturing their OWN Cardinals and tossing them over the sides of their PAPAL WARSHIPS!!???

What? What is it??


Your antipathy to the RCC is comical but terrifying at the same time. Why "terrifiying"??

Wouldn't it be FAR more Terrifying to be part of the insitutation slaughtering millions upon millions of BOTH CAtholic and NON Catholic Christians in the dark ages??? -- THE RCC?!!

How can both HISTORY and Scripture remain "a dark secret" from Catholics?

Surely you guys have some "Reasons" for making your decisions!

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I would not become a JW - they don't have a strong doctrinal message that appeals to me - but they DO believe in making their case from the Bible.

However WHAT IF in addition to their doctrinal errors they ALSO have the problem of murdering fellow JWs by the MILLIONS and also in nations that have turned JW - slaughtered non-JWS by the MILLIONS. With self-confessed instances of incorporating PAGANISM into their worship!

I mean - could they get even ONE person to join then with such atrocities as "baggage"??

Yet somehow - there are people here who claim they are "considering a change" TO such a system!!

Where is the sanity in that???

In Christ,

Bob

[Priscilla Ann]

Bob:

I also wondered what made bible christians join the Catholic Church. If you get EWTN (the Catholic TV channel), they have a show called "The Journey Home", where they interview people who have joined the Catholic Church. Some of them were protestant, some athiest, etc.

Typically, the protestant who joins the Catholic church will give one of the following reasons:

- "I fell in love with the eucharist."

- "I read the early church fathers."

- "I fell in love with Our Lady."

I have never heard one of the "Journey Home" guests give sound biblical reasons for joining the Catholic church; however, it is interesting the listen to them.

PA

[TP]

Greetings,

You said catholics read scriptures with: fully free and open mind, expecting God to do as He promised and guide them into all truth.

Response: YOU don't read scripture with a Fully Free mind. That is impossible. You will read scripture with your pre-conceived notions. Nobody can empty there mind and then read scriptures. Catholics are the ONLY honest enough to say this.

You read scripture Knowing that Jesus Christ, son of God was incarnate, was crucified died and was risen, and he is the source of our salvation. YOU read scriptures Assuming this. Do You open the New Testaments saying: I don't know if Jesus will be divine when I read this: NO, YOU know Jesus is divine and you read scriptures Accordingly. BE HONEST, you have just as many assumptions reading scriptures as catholics do.

A nice easy way for catholics is: When you read scriptures, remember the apostles Creed. Those are safe boundries.

There is a reason when a Lutheran reads scripture and Wow, they interpret it as a Lutheran. Someone who in evangelical circles: Surprise, surprise, they interpret as an evangelical.

The RAPTURE is a perfect example. That Doctrine is only 200 years old. It became popular because it was put in the Scofield bible commentary. Then all those Evangelicals who Open their Scripture with a PERFECTLY open mind (using the commentary) all of a sudden believed in the Rapture.

Don't give me any of that Totally open mind garbage. It is not true.

peace

[Sirach]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
I guess Bob the main reason why there are members of the RCC is because Jesus Christ insituted the church but hey lets just ignore this any any other fact that does not fit comfortably with the humanism of many churches.

Your antipathy to the RCC is comical but terrifying at the same time. Is it not strange how the Catholic Church can not prove one Scripture, in fact any evidence at all, that Jesus instituted the Catholic Church. I request you withdraw that statement, unless you can back it up with valid evidence. It is a worthless claim.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Well, here is what Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about it... there must be some validity...

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9109700&query=roman%20catholicism&ct=eb


Roman Catholicism
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.


If the Britannica is correct, then we should all be Catholic.

You are so off on what the Catholic Church teaches, how can we trust your research with anything else, especially with Scripture and Christian History?


We can agree to disagree with Britannica and the Catholic Church but to say it's a worthless claim is un-Christian.


God Bless,
Sirach

[StefanM]

Roman Catholicism
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.
-------

Actually that says nothing about whether the Catholic Church goes back to the apostles. It says it is the . . . "structure that traces its history to the Apostles. . ." The subject is the Catholic Church which traces its own history to the Apostles. That says nothing about whether or not the Catholic Church actually can be traced to the apostles, only saying that the Catholic Church traces itself to the Apostles.

[john6:63]

Originally posted by StefanM:
Roman Catholicism
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.
-------

Actually that says nothing about whether the Catholic Church goes back to the apostles. It says it is the . . . "structure that traces its history to the Apostles. . ." The subject is the Catholic Church which traces its own history to the Apostles. That says nothing about whether or not the Catholic Church actually can be traced to the apostles, only saying that the Catholic Church traces itself to the Apostles. StefanM, did you not click on the link? The Christian church in the article IS Roman Catholicism that is being discussed. And the article is quite clear in that the church’s structure can traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

What a play on words you did there. Reminds me of myself a few months

[Sirach]

Originally posted by StefanM:
Roman Catholicism
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.
-------

Actually that says nothing about whether the Catholic Church goes back to the apostles. It says it is the . . . "structure that traces its history to the Apostles. . ." The subject is the Catholic Church which traces its own history to the Apostles. That says nothing about whether or not the Catholic Church actually can be traced to the apostles, only saying that the Catholic Church traces itself to the Apostles. That is your opinion which you have a right too. There are also a lot of compelling proofs in the first Christian writings from the people that were taught by the Apostles, and the people they taught, and so on...

The writings can be baught here:
http://www.logos.com/products/details/518

Or Read for free here:
http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/


A note from the Logos site:
The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.


Why would the protestant version need "additional front matter"? How can both Protestants and Catholics use the same writings of the first Chritsians and believe such different things?

Someone has to be wrong, because the Scriptures are clear that there is one faith, and to be united in Faith. The Scriptures are clear that people will distort the Scriptures. It seems to me that we should read more of the Early Church Fathers writings because I think they would know the true meaning of Scriptures better than anyone picking up a bible today, especially since the Apostles taught them and they were instructed to teach trustworthy men, and Christ promised that they would never be overcome.

God Bless,
Sirach

[StefanM]

I stand by my original assessment, which was neutral. Linguistically, the article said nothing about whether or not the claims were valid. They could be, or they might not be. Nevertheless, the article only said what the claims of the Catholic Church are.

I don't follow your argument, john 6:63, but I can see a need to clarify my statement a bit.

ANALYSIS:

Roman Catholicism [title]
[Christian church (subject)] [characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure (phrase which modifies the subject] [that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD(relative clause modifying the subject].

Subject = RCC

Modifying phrase = describes the characteristics of the RCC

Relative clause = describes how the RCC traces its history

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Sirach:

Someone has to be wrong, because the Scriptures are clear that there is one faith, and to be united in Faith. The Scriptures are clear that people will distort the Scriptures. It seems to me that we should read more of the Early Church Fathers writings because I think they would know the true meaning of Scriptures better than anyone picking up a bible today, especially since the Apostles taught them and they were instructed to teach trustworthy men, and Christ promised that they would never be overcome.

God Bless,
Sirach Bingo! Which is exactly why I am considering the Catholic faith. Who was more likely to have understood the teaching of the apostles correctly, those early writers we call the Fathers of the Church or the Protestant Reformers who came on the scene about thirteen centuries after the Fathers?

[Priscilla Ann]

john6:63:

Can you tell me what the teachings of the apostles were on indulgences, purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.? Did the apostles instruct us to pray to anyone other than God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

These are important questions to consider if you are seriously considering the Catholic faith. They are the questions that brought me to the conclusion that I could no longer be a Catholic.

PA

[D28guy]

Sirach,

"Also, you fail to think about the bible verses that the Catholic Church points out to prove the Magisterium..."I know the verses and I completly reject that CC butchering of those scriptures

"Read St. John 14 a few times."I've read it more times than I can count.

"Christ clearly tells the Apostles that the Church will be guided by the Holy Spirit, in all truth.""The Church" is nothing more than all christians. God promises to guide all christians into all truth. The Catholic Church decieves people into thinking that it means the "Majesterium" of the religious organisation called the Catholic Church. That is a lie.

"Not in some truth Mike, all truth."You better believe it. Thank God that every christian can rely on God to do that very thing through the Holy Spirit.

"Do you believe Jesus?"Yes.

"I do,..."I sure hope you do. If not now, then one day.

"...and every Catholic I know does."Catholics are forbidden, commanded by The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church to NOT believe the truth of those passages of scripture.

"In Matt, Christ Himself tells people to "tell the Church". Surely you should know these verses and must admit that they are reasonable..."Of course they are. In those situations if the brothers cant resolve things they should consult other reasonable and wise brothers and sisters in Christ to help them. Thats all "the church" is.

" unless you are infallible."I never make that claim. Only groups like the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Catholic church make that claim.

"You fail at being a Christian when you call Catholics satanic."You have just publically slandered me.

I quoted from the Catholic Catechism regarding the Catholic Churches cultic view of the scriptures, that the Catholic is obligated to accept all the scriptural interpretations of The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

I then said...

"That is a satanic view.."(See it? A satanic "view".)

"...that is held by the Jehovahs Witnesses, the Mormons, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and just about every cult or "ism" I've ever known anything about. This view says that...

"We know what the scriptures mean. We interpret it, and you must believe everything we tell you it says and means. You need us to do that for you."CLEARLY, I was referring to the particular teaching of the Catholic Church regarding the Catholics obligation to believe whatever interpretation of scripture that The Magesterium tells them is true. That idea is what I referred to as satanic, because it is.

I did not...

...call Catholics satanic.(and no, I am not concerned with whether you apologise or not. Its normal to get worked up sometimes regarding these issues. Its no big deal)


" It shows ignorance, self righteous, judgemental mentality."Nonsense. Regarding the view the Catholic Church regarding their interpretation of the scriptures, I was simply telling the truth.

"You are not going to have a clear view of the Catholic Church by looking at snippets and taking them out of context. If you were a Catholic the first 24 years of your life, you missed a lot of what they really teach, and why."Not so. Since I have been born again I regularly investigate CATHOLIC SOURCES to make sure I'm not slandering them. The on-line Catholic Encyclopeia (not an *official* Catholic source, but every Catholic I have ever dialogued with tells me its good and accurate), the official Vatican Web-site, yhe Catholic Catechism, the "Catholic Answers" web-site (I see you have put up a link to that one)and other highly regarded...by Catholics...Catholic Web-sites.

And yes, I also sometimes link to sites that are run by ex-Catholics who now minster to Catholics in their attempt to help them see the truth about the Catholic Church. Those sites are a great great blessing and help to the body of Christ.

"Again, here we go, you are arguing against something that you do not understand, until you understand it, your arguments will be pointless."Unfortunetly, the truth regarding Catholicism will probably only be "pointless" to those who are so fully indoctrinated into Catholicism that the steel walls are inpenetrable. I say "probably" because God can and still does perform miracles.

God bless,

Mike

[D28guy]

DHK,

You posted, concerning John 14...

"The answer (the proper interpretation) is that the Holy Spirit promised the Apostles that he would bring back to their memories everything that Christ had spoken to them, so that they could write it down in the gospel records without error. In this way we have the infallible Word of God. Christ is here promising us that we will have an inspired accurate record of His Word."Thanks for posting that. I meant to include that with what I posted about it, but neglected to put it in there.

Thanks for "supplying what was lacking". smile.gif

Blessings,

Mike

[D28guy]

Pricilla Ann,

"Typically, the protestant who joins the Catholic church will give one of the following reasons:

- "I fell in love with the eucharist."

- "I read the early church fathers."

- "I fell in love with Our Lady."I've heard those very things as well on EWTN. I dont know if its more frightening than is is incredibly sad.

God bless,

Mike

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Priscilla Ann:

I also wondered what made bible christians join the Catholic Church. If you get EWTN (the Catholic TV channel), they have a show called "The Journey Home", where they interview people who have joined the Catholic Church. Some of them were protestant, some athiest, etc.

Typically, the protestant who joins the Catholic church will give one of the following reasons:

- "I fell in love with the eucharist."

- "I read the early church fathers."

- "I fell in love with Our Lady."

I have never heard one of the "Journey Home" guests give sound biblical reasons for joining the Catholic church; however, it is interesting the listen to them.

PA Ahh finally! Thank you Priscilla Ann!

Finally someone digs until they find an RC list!!

So sad our current RC leaning members could not "think" of why THEY THEMSELVES are doing what they are doing!

Is it just that it is easier to complain about others than to actually say why "you" (as in not PA) are thinking of the RCC more and more these days?

So far - Priscilla gets the prize for being the most logical, forthright, above board Catholic POV responder and she is NOT leaning to Catholicism at ALL!!

Come you guys - you are not even trying!

In Christ,

Bob

[Sirach]

I know the verses and I completly reject that CC butchering of those scriptures How do we know that you are not butchering the scriptures?


I've read it more times than I can count. It doesn't hurt to read it again ;)


"The Church" is nothing more than all christians. God promises to guide all christians into all truth. The Catholic Church decieves people into thinking that it means the "Majesterium" of the religious organisation called the Catholic Church. That is a lie. If the Church is all Christians, and we all disagree, then how is the Holy Spirit guiding us in ALL truth?

Be honest, that is not a reasonable answer.

How do we know that you are not trying to decieve us?


You better believe it. Thank God that every christian can rely on God to do that very thing through the Holy Spirit. Can truth contradict truth? If every Christian had "all truth" then we would ALL have the same interpretation of Scripture and agree on Salvation, Grace, Faith, Works, Baptism, John 6, etc...

Please explain how we can have all truth yet disagree on so much.


Catholics are forbidden, commanded by The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church to NOT believe the truth of those passages of scripture. Really Mike? Where is that in the Catechism?

Here is what I found that the Catholic Church teaches about Scripture....


CCC 81
"Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."

Growth in understanding the faith
CCC 94
Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church:

—"through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts";57 it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth."58

—"from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience,"59 the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60

—"from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth."61


CCC 104
In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God."67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68


CCC 105
God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

CCC 107
The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."

CCC 108
Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living."73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74


Mike, that doesn't sound like that they are forbidden to believe the truth in Scripture... it sounds like they are told to believe it. They have quite a bit on what they teach about Scripture in the Catholic Catechism... for all to see... http://www.USCCB.org

How is it that you are so wrong on something that is in plain black and white online for the whole world to see? If you are so wrong about what Catholics are taught when you could have easily checked for yourself what they are taught, how can I take anything you say about the Catholic Church seriously, let alone what you think the Scriptures mean? Lying about another group of people is not what Christians do, Mike. Listening to rumors about another group and spreading them without looking into it for yourself is not what Christians do, Mike.


I will pray for you.

Every other point you made is mute because of how much in error you are with your criticisms based on falsehoods.

Maybe you are sincere in what you think the Catholic Church teaches, but then that would show that your research techniques need help... Only you and God know.

Get the facts bro.

God Bless,
Sirach

[Sirach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Priscilla Ann:
[qb] john6:63:

Can you tell me what the teachings of the apostles were on indulgences, purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.? Did the apostles instruct us to pray to anyone other than God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

These are important questions to consider if you are seriously considering the Catholic faith. They are the questions that brought me to the conclusion that I could no longer be a Catholic.

(non-Baptist links deleted)

PA
God Bless,
Sirach

[ July 04, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

[Priscilla Ann]

Sirach:

Yes, I have heard all of the Catholic explanations. I spent a lot of time at EWTN.com before I left the Catholic church.

By the way, the Catholic rationalization of indulgences is something that you cannot get from scripture, unless, of course you pluck a verse here and there out of its context. I know because I looked up all of those verses years ago.

I tried to rationalize the Catholic teachings every way I could, because I did not want to leave the Catholic church. But the truth of God's Word prevailed, and he provided a way out. By the way, my Catholic parents and I now have some of the best spiritual conversations we have ever had. God does work in mysterious ways!

Praise God!

PA

[D28guy]

TP,

You quoted me...

"...read scriptures with: fully free and open mind, expecting God to do as He promised and guide them into all truth."And then said...

YOU don't read scripture with a Fully Free mind."I'm afraid I do.

"That is impossible."Its entirely possible.

You will read scripture with your pre-conceived notions. Nobody can empty there mind and then read scriptures.Ahhh, but we can seek to do that. And that is all God asks of us. Some people have a more difficult time than others in getting rid of falsehood and garbage that was fed to them in the past. And God is very very VERY good at replacing garbage with truth. The Holy Spirit can work very VERY well with someone who is seeking to get rid of the error and falsehood and truly open themself to truth straight from God Himself through the Holy Spirit.

"Catholics are the ONLY honest enough to say this."I wish with all my heart that Catholics could come to grips with Gods desire that they take the Catholic Church off of the throne as "truth dispenser" and place God back on it where He belongs.

All it takes is to open their mind and let God open their understanding to His truth.

You read scripture Knowing that Jesus Christ, son of God was incarnate, was crucified died and was risen, and he is the source of our salvation. YOU read scriptures Assuming this. Do You open the New Testaments saying: I don't know if Jesus will be divine when I read this: NO, YOU know Jesus is divine and you read scriptures Accordingly. BE HONEST, you have just as many assumptions reading scriptures as catholics do.I will be honest. That was one of the weirdest paragraphs I've ever read in my life.

I believe those things to be truth because the scriptures reveal them as being true, and God has opened my understanding to those truths.

If those truths didnt come from the scriptures, but I already assumed them to be true, could you kindly tell me who clued me in on those things...the tooth fairy?

A nice easy way for catholics is: When you read scriptures, remember the apostles Creed. Those are safe boundries.Theres nothing wrong with the apostles creed. Its OK. But its not in the least bit needed.

There is a reason when a Lutheran reads scripture and Wow, they interpret it as a Lutheran. Someone who in evangelical circles: Surprise, surprise, they interpret as an evangelical.If THAT is the reason why they believe certain things, then I would say the same thing to them that I say to Catholics.

STOP IT!

Open you mind and heart to Gods wooing and guiding as you feed on Gods truth.

The RAPTURE is a perfect example. That Doctrine is only 200 years old.Even though its in the scriptures...its 200 years old?

And you personally know the heart of every born again person over the course of the last 200 years, and you know beyond any doubt that nobody believed it in between the 1st century and the last 2000 years?

Here is a link that will help you with the Rapture teaching through the centuries. Numerous quotes from previous centuries are included...

Rapture through the centuries (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:x0LiN0FxL8YJ:www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj13e.pdf+Rapture+teaching+through+the+centuries&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

"It became popular because it was put in the Scofield bible commentary. Then all those Evangelicals who Open their Scripture with a PERFECTLY open mind (using the commentary) all of a sudden believed in the Rapture."It comes straight from the scriptures, and was believed centuries ago, as the link shows.

"Don't give me any of that Totally open mind garbage. It is not true."Well of course you are going to say that. Your Church keeps their people in compliance by forbidding them to believe anything other than that which The Hierarchy commands them to believe.

I'm glad to say that it most certainly IS true.

God bless,

Mike

[D28guy]

Sirach,

"How do we know that you are not butchering the scriptures?"The scriptures make clear that I'm not. You may not agree with everything I believe, and someone else might have a more accurate view then me, but that doesnt mean I'm butchering the scriptures. I seek to let the scriptures interpret themselves. The Catholic Church decides what they want to be true...call it Tradition...then butcher the scriptures when they are asked to prove the tradition from the scriptures.

I said...

"The Church" is nothing more than all christians. God promises to guide all christians into all truth. The Catholic Church decieves people into thinking that it means the "Majesterium" of the religious organisation called the Catholic Church. That is a lie."And you said...

If the Church is all Christians, and we all disagree, then how is the Holy Spirit guiding us in ALL truth?1st, we dont all disagree, point blank. We all agree on multitudes upon multitudes of things...with no centralised Truth Dispenser telling us all what we must believe.

We disagree regarding some things. Why is that? Sometimes we just have a different slant on the same truth. Sometimes there is an element of truth in both sides. Sometimes one side it right and the other side is wrong. The reason for all of this? None of us have perfect hearing. God is God and we arent. But we are growing and growing and growing more in "grace and truth" as we seek God as our teacher.As we contend with our brothers regarding truth we become stronger and stronger.

How do we know that you are not trying to decieve us?Check me out according to the scriptures. Not accoding to some churchs traditions...I pay no heed to any of that. The scriptures.

Can truth contradict truth? If every Christian had "all truth" then we would ALL have the same interpretation of Scripture and agree on Salvation, Grace, Faith, Works, Baptism, John 6, etc...

Please explain how we can have all truth yet disagree on so much.Because we dont yet have perfect hearing. We are still here...and not in heaven. The scriptures teach us that now we see as through a glass, dimly...but one day we will see "face to face".

Many times its not really disagreeing on the essence of the argument, but rather just different slants on the truth. Many times both are correct in a sense. Sometimes one or both simply cant get rid of some error they have believed previously that needs to be swept out. They are not fully seeking truth with an open mind.

Whatever the case, we contunue to grow and learn as we contend for truth.

We were speaking...I believe...of the scriptures that admonish us to seeking God, with an open mind, to teach us truth from the scriptures, and I said...

Catholics are forbidden, commanded by The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church to NOT believe the truth of those passages of scripture.And you said...

Really Mike? Where is that in the Catechism?

Here is what I found that the Catholic Church teaches about Scripture....


CCC 81
"Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."

Growth in understanding the faith
CCC 94
Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church:

—"through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts";57 it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth."58

—"from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which experience,"59 the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60

—"from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth."61


CCC 104
In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God."67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68


CCC 105
God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

CCC 107
The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."

CCC 108
Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living."73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74


Mike, that doesn't sound like that they are forbidden to believe the truth in Scripture... it sounds like they are told to believe it. They have quite a bit on what they teach about Scripture in the Catholic Catechism... for all to see.

How is it that you are so wrong on something that is in plain black and white online for the whole world to see?Very interesting...regarding the quotes you posted. It would appear from those quotes that the Catholic is indeed free to feed on Gods word with an open mind and heart. I'll come back to that in a little bit.

Regarding what I posted earlier concerning the Catholic being obliged to believe only what they are commanded to believe by the Hierarchy, I quoted from the Catholic Ecyclopedia, where it explains that the Teaching Magesterium of the Catholic Hierarchy are the ones who interpret the scripture for the Catholics, and the Catholics are obligated to believe as they are commanded to believe.

And...numerous Catholics on these threads here at BB have dutifully proven that true by argueing that the Catholic Church alone has been commisiosned by God to interpret the scriptures for the "lay" people.

But...you seem to like the Catholic Catechism.

So, I ventured into the Catholic Catechism and discovered that you were somewhat selective regarding what you quoted.

Here are several more quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic church:

"113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, [b]and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81)."

"119 It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88

"85 The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome."

"87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms."

"88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these."

"100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."

(As Paul Harvey would say..."Now you know...the REST of the story.")


Earlier I said...

"Catholics are forbidden, commanded by The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church to NOT believe the truth of those passages of scripture....because they disagreed with Catholic dogma.

And you said...

Really Mike? Where is that in the Catechism?I just showed you


Mike

[mioque]

DHK
Originally posted by Sirach:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Priscilla Ann:
[qb] john6:63:

Can you tell me what the teachings of the apostles were on indulgences, purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.? Did the apostles instruct us to pray to anyone other than God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

These are important questions to consider if you are seriously considering the Catholic faith. They are the questions that brought me to the conclusion that I could no longer be a Catholic.

(non-Baptist links deleted)

PA
God Bless,
Sirach
[ July 04, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: DHK ] I assume the deletion of Sirach from this board is next?

[mioque]

Anyway to answer Bob's original question.
I think the appeal of the RCC for would be members is the same appeal it has for filmmakers.
You only rarely see non-catholic churches in mainstream cinema.
Catholicism simply has more pomp and circumstance than Protestant churches. Rituals, incense, art, kitsch, the scale of it all, men in funny dresses, the feel that it actually has been around for over a thousand years. It's an emotional thing.

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Priscilla Ann:
john6:63:

Can you tell me what the teachings of the apostles were on indulgences, purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.? Did the apostles instruct us to pray to anyone other than God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

These are important questions to consider if you are seriously considering the Catholic faith. They are the questions that brought me to the conclusion that I could no longer be a Catholic.

PA There are NO links - NO documents - nadda - nothing as quote from Peter, or Paul, or John or ... NT Apostles on "indulgences" on "Purgatory", on "sinless Mary", on "Prayers to Mary", on "perpetual Virginity" on "Praying to the dead", on "Praying for the dead".

(But of course I could say the same thing about "infant baptism".)

There are many things introduced by the RCC during the dark ages that ALL agree are not actually mentioned by any of the NT Apostles!!

So then the "links" that you get refer "instead" to doctrinal statements of error that come some time AFTER the NT apostles without actually "admitting" that the answer to your question above is "zip/nadda/zilch".

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Sirach -
Someone has to be wrong, because the Scriptures are clear that there is one faith, and to be united in Faith. The Scriptures are clear that people will distort the Scriptures.
Very true.

And as Acts 20 points out "from among your OWN SELVES" these errors were to arise.

As Christ points out in Mark 7 from the ONE TRUE CHURCH's OWN MAGESTERIUM these doctrinal errors were ALREADY shown to arise "teaching for DOCTRINE the traditions of MEN".

So there is no question that the 2Thess 2:1-4 "apostacy" or falling away would come from WITHIN the church started by Christ.

As we find in 1Timothy 1 - the ERRORS were starting RIGHT THEN and THERE (in the church of Ephesus) and Timothy was ONE resource left in that church to try to put a lid on it. But in the case of Paul's writing to Titus - we see it being addressed "again".

Now we see that EVEN the RCC's OWN historians "admit" that paganism was injected into Christianity BY the Catholic Church!!

(See post to follow).

This could not BE any simpler!

The RCC is very clearly ONE of those error-injecting change-agents of the dark ages - in fact PRESIDING over the dark ages. The dark ages for mankind was the Golden Age of the Catholic Church!

The fact that you would bring out these important points - ask that we look at them, consider them, etc -- is instructive.

Thanks for doing it.

Sirach
It seems to me that we should read more of the Early Church Fathers writings because I think they would know the true meaning of Scriptures
The idea that "you need Tertullian to tell you what Paul said and you need the Pope to tell you what Tertullian said and you need your priest to tell you what the Pope said and you need ... to tell you what the priest said" is a key error-injection chain fabricated by the RCC.

You can "see" its effect by simply GOING to Paul or the Gospels directly and then asking Catholics to comment on THE TEXT. As we saw in John 6 -- they flee the "details" in droves.


Because they cling to the error that man's traditions and error added over time are "certainly better than anyone picking up a bible today".

So though we HAVE PAUL HIMSELF speaking - why LISTEN TO PAUL?? When we have Tertullian??

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

15. Among the first of the perversions of the Christian worship was to give to its forms the title and air of the mysteries. For says the record: - “Among the Greeks and the people of the East, nothing was held more sacred than what were called the mysteries. This circumstance led the Christians, in order to impart dignity to their religion, to say that they also had similar mysteries, or certain holy rites concealed from the vulgar; and they not only applied the terms used in the pagan mysteries to Christian institutions, particularly baptism and the Lord’s Supper, but they gradually introduced also the rites which were designated by these terms.” - Mosheim.
Id., par. 5.


22. It was to accommodate the Christian worship to the minds of a people who practiced these things that the bishops gave to the Christian ordinances the name of mysteries. The Lord’s Supper was made the greater mystery, baptism the lesser and the initiatory rite to the celebration of the former.

After the heathen manner also a white garment was used as the initiatory robe, and the candidate, having been baptized, and thus initiated into the lesser mysteries, was admitted into what was called in the church the order of catechumens, in which order they remained a certain length of time, as in the heathen celebration, before they were admitted to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the greater mystery.

23. “This practice originated in the Eastern provinces, and then after the time of Hadrian (who first introduced the pagan mysteries among the Latins) it spread among the Christians of the West.” The reign of Hadrian was from 117-138. Therefore, before the second century was half gone, before the last of the apostles had been dead forty years, this apostasy, this working of the mystery of iniquity, had so largely spread over both the East and the West, that it is literally true that “a large part, therefore, of the Christian observances and institutions, even in this century, had the aspect of the pagan mysteries.” - Mosheim. “Ecclesiastical History,” century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 5.

[BobRyan]

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.


Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.


Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

[BobRyan]

Roman Catholic historian and best-selling author Thomas Bokenkotter writes in "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" --


Ibid - Page 42
"the liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church
and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection,
devotion to relics, use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians
began to face the east while praying which made it necessary for the priest to lead prayers while his back was toward the congregation."
…
pg 43
for a long time the celebrant was left considerable freedom to improvise in conducting the liturgy. Even wording of the canon was left to his
discretion.
How much influence did this have on the RCC “really”?

Ibid - Pg 39

"the alliance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life. It carried many advantages, but it also entailed
some serious drawbacks; ... Mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world."

[BobRyan]

However as Sirach points out - these Post-Apostolic insertions of paganism into the church and the ECFs that comment on the success of that process -- form the "primary motivators" for some to turn to Catholicism because they see the examples above as "better than picking up any Bible today".

Once you get to that point - maybe Catholicism DOES start to shine brightly - who knows?

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

And now on a new thread - we see the role that Constantine played during the time when paganism was most efficiently inserted into the RCC.

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Priscilla Ann:
Bob:

I also wondered what made bible christians join the Catholic Church. If you get EWTN (the Catholic TV channel), they have a show called "The Journey Home", where they interview people who have joined the Catholic Church. Some of them were protestant, some athiest, etc.

Typically, the protestant who joins the Catholic church will give one of the following reasons:

- "I fell in love with the eucharist."

- "I read the early church fathers."

- "I fell in love with Our Lady."

I have never heard one of the "Journey Home" guests give sound biblical reasons for joining the Catholic church; however, it is interesting the listen to them.

PA Or they might have come to the conclusion that sola scriptura doesn't work and be in need of a definitive interpretative authority fo Scripture; Scripture alone does not necessarily produce 'sound biblical reasons'

Yours in Christ

Matt

[BobRyan]

That is key!!

Associating an attack on the Acts 17:11 model of sola scriptura with PA's comment about their not giving "actual Bible reasons" for making the leap into the abyss - is very key. I have to agree with you completely - to give up scripture is to become subject to "any wind of doctrine" and all the darkest of traditions emanating from the dark ages of human history in Europe.

This is I think one of the most sound points you have made.

Your idea that the BIBLE is not a source for making Biblically sound arguments (by contrast) - is simply a self-conflicted statement that does not survive the reading of it.

In Christ,

Bob

[Matt Black]

You have therefore misread or misunderstood my post. To adhere to 'Scripture alone' is to become subject to "any wind of doctrine" (as amply demonstrated by any number of posts on this Board), since Scripture can be quoted in support of virtually any doctrine (heck, the Devil quotes Scripture to Jesus in the Wilderness!), and is "the darkest of traditions emanating from" the Reformation

Yours in Christ

Matt

[DHK]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
You have therefore misread or misunderstood my post. To adhere to 'Scripture alone' is to become subject to "any wind of doctrine" (as amply demonstrated by any number of posts on this Board), since Scripture can be quoted in support of virtually any doctrine (heck, the Devil quotes Scripture to Jesus in the Wilderness!), and is "the darkest of traditions emanating from" the Reformation

Yours in Christ

Matt Good analogy. So when the devil quoted Scriptre it is akin to the RCC quoting Scripture which resulted in throwing the world into an era we call the "Dark Ages." They kept the Word of God away from the populace, and only quoted certain Scriptures, and those out of context just like Satan did.
But the Reformers came along and exposed the RCC for what it was. They exposed its damnable heresies. They used the Word of God. They taught justification by faith. And a new era began. The Reformers actually used the Words of Christ: "You must be born again," words never spoken or explained in the Catholic Church. The Reformers used the Word of God, the Words of Christ, while the RCC used the word of God distorted by the devil.
Good analogy.
DHK

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
You have therefore misread or misunderstood my post. To adhere to 'Scripture alone' is to become subject to "any wind of doctrine"
IF that were true then the Bereans in Acts 17:11 would have been IN ERROR to accept Paul after testing his teaching ONLY using WHAT Acts 17 SAYS they used!!

Sadly for the speculation you offer above - INSTEAD of the Acts 17:11 text saying "AND these NON Christians were so daring as to use the very RISKY and error prone method of SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF the things spoken to them by this highly honored appeared. (AS IF that could even be accomplished by a group of actual CHRISTIANS let alone NON Christians!!) Clearly they did not know that doing such a thing is pure foolishness and subjects them to just any old wind of doctrine. They will soon learn NOT to go to scripture and check out what they are told by someone claiming to be an Apostle" -- it actually reads in another direction entirely. In fact it reads the way we would expect if the Acts 17:11 sola-scriptura method were actually APPROVED of (As the text SAYS) and if the APOSTLES themselves are to be checked out as 2Cor 11 and Gal 1:6-11 say!!

But this is of course "an inconvenient detail" and I know how that does not sit well with the RCC. So I expect some complaints.

Basically one must choose between scripture and the doctrines of the RCC. At least we seem to be agreeing on that point. graemlins/thumbs.gif

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
[(heck, the Devil quotes Scripture to Jesus in the Wilderness!), and is "the darkest of traditions emanating from" the (father of lies)]It is true that both the Devil and the RCC can be found to quote scripture in support of their false teachings. I don't contest that point. BUT I do contest the IMPLIED argument that one can not TRUST God's Word to SHOW that these two sources are in fact in error.

That is WHY Paul ARGUES that we USE this method in Gal 1:6-11 whether it is with supposed RC APOSTLES OR even a supposed ANGEL FROM HEAVEN!!

Get it?

That is WHY Paul argues that we USE that SAME method that SHOWS HIM to be VALID - when evaluating a supposed RC Apostle (as he tells us in 2Cor 11).

Paul is being entirely consistent as he urges that the Word of God CAN BE TRUSTED in these VERY scenarios where FALSE apostles speak and where Satan HIMSELF speaks in disguise!

How "instructive".

How "Consistent".

How "Logical" and "Biblical".

No wonder this entire line of instruction given by Paul must be "ignored" to make the leap into the abyss.

No wonder it is THIS VERY focus on God's Word that must be abandoned to swallow the worst errors from the dark ages of human history in Europe! The people of that age were forced to live without access to the Bible the way many today CHOOSE to live without paying attention to the "Details" of scripture!

In Christ,

Bob

[Matt Black]

And how do I know that Bob and DHK are not quoting Scriptures to support their "false teaching"...?

Yours in Christ

Matt

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And how do I know that Bob and DHK are not quoting Scriptures to support their "false teaching"...?

Yours in Christ

Matt Exactly!
graemlins/thumbs.gif
(And herein lies the fatal flaw of sola scriptura.)

[Claudia_T]

Well I was a Catholic when growing up till about age 14, so I dont really remember much about it. My Mother was a Catholic Nun until she married my Father then that ruined put an end to the Nunnery, of course.

I would say that probably many who are Catholics become Catholics because of the following things...

1. POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE: The unsurpassed music, the rituals, the incense, everything becomes a real "show". It is impressive to alot of people.

2. I AM IN THE REAL CHURCH. The claim that the Catholic Church is THE original church and that everything was handed down to the church fathers. And the idea that the Protestant churches are just broken off from the "real" church.

3. CHURCH FATHERS DEFINE THE TRUTH FOR ME. To some it must be comforting and easier to just have the idea that some "church fathers" are going to define for them "what is truth" instead of having to search the Scriptures for themselves. It relieves them of the burden and gives them the same feeling that many put forth today that says "I really am not responsible for what I believe or what I do". You dont really have to think much and if curcumstances change you dont have to have any basic foundational understanding of the Bible that would enable you to adapt to anything that is troubling in the world because you cna just leave it to the latest Pope or church official to tell you "what's what" today. It's like, "okay today am I supposed to ask the churches I persecuted for forgiveness or am I supposed to claim my church is infallible and act as if they could never have done anything wrong?" and you could just leave that messy decision up to your church official or up to whoever the latest Pope is at the time.

4. THE SACRAMENTS. If I believe in "The Real Presence" then I can just do a "sacrament" and the act of doing the ritual in itself will "make me holy". Hey thats great! I dont have to have any real change of heart. Sprinkle a little holy water on me and Im good to go! That would be nice.

5. And the INDULGENCES. Could you just image that? Convenient. I can just pay my way into heaven or out of purgatory or whatever. That would be nice too.

6. CONFESSION TO A PRIEST. This would be wonderful. I remember when I was a kid ... not knowing any better, I would go to Confession, tell the priest my sins, and then come home and say my "Our Fathers" and my "Hail Marys" as fast as possible to get them overwith... and presto! My sins are gone! "Bless me father for I have sinned... let's hurry up and get this thing overwith so I can go out and do it again!" That was my little rhyme I made up. It makes sinning so easy.

----

I was just sitting here thinking of what someone might actually like about being a Catholic... if you had a certain mindset... and thats what I came up with on short notice.

Of course there are probably plenty of other things that might entice one to become a Catholic, but of course these reasons I gave arent so obviously put forth. I mean the Catholic Church doesnt come out and SAY these things. Like, Hey join our church and you can have a free get out of jail card or get out of purgatory card. They dont put it that way but thats what it amounts to, really.

I would hope nobody would actually have enjoyed the persecution part and the torture and murder of thousand of people... but then again, Protestant Churches who bow to the Pope by keeping the Sunday Sabbath commandment instituted by the Catholic church are some day going to join in the persecution of those who refuse, as well.. thats where the making of the "Image to the Beast" comes in.


Rv:13:14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

But then again, many Catholics are trying to live up to the light that they have and are ignorantly doing what they do. Lots of them are far more dedicated to God than many Protestants are.... and God looks at the heart. And many will come out from the deceptions they are under when the light is presented to them, while many Protestants will not. Actually many Protestants are more eager to get Sunday laws passed then Catholics are and to force those who wont comply to submit to their ideas, and are trying to use politics and the government to enforce their Sunday laws. They are going to persecute those who refuse to comply and the spirit of persecution will rise once again.

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rv:13:
11: And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12: And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15: And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

[Petrel]

Ironically, most of this can be applied to some Baptist churches and people who choose to go there:

1. The praise music. It provides an emotional high.

2. It is the real church. The Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Episcopaliens, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Methodists have all been corrupted and are heretics.

3. Church fathers define the truth for me--I think lack of individual thinking is spread through every church and denomination.

4. The legalism. If I don't do A, B, and C, that means I'm a good Christian!

5. Well, we don't have indulgences. :D But they aren't so easy to get now, and you can't get them for the deceased any more. And a lot of people still try to get holy by doing good things even among the Baptists.

6. Confession of sins. If you don't have the right attitude, it's just as easy to sin, "confess," and sin again while in a Baptist church.

I like the Catholics' anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia stand. I think they're tough too--I went to a mass for John Paul II that was standing room only, and while the gospel was read everyone knelt, even those kneeling on flagstones.

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And how do I know that Bob and DHK are not quoting Scriptures to support their "false teaching"...?

Yours in Christ

Matt It would be pretty hard to know without actually reading them.

In Acts 17:11 we see that EVEN NONChristians can rely on scripture "TO SEE IF those things are so".

If Christians will say they are not qualified to do what even NONChristians can do with accuracy - then they have fallen to something below that level of competency when it cames to a basic reading of the text.

I find that hard to believe. I think they are just expressing a "preference".

In Christ,

Bob

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Black:
[qb] And how do I know that Bob and DHK are not quoting Scriptures to support their "false teaching"...?

Yours in Christ

Matt Your question, Matt, doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you disbelieve the Bible. Would you like me to give a reference with every Scripture I quote so that you can look it up for yourself and verify it? (I usually do anyway). You know that I am quoting Scripture because I give the exact references from the Bible where the Scripture is found. That should be easy enough to follow.
DHK

[Matt Black]

It makes perfect sense and demonstrates the fundamental flaw in the SS heresy; far from disbelieving the Bible I believe it is the inspired Word of God and it is for that very reason that I reject SS - it utterly demeans the infallibility of Scripture to leave its interpretation in the hands of fallible individuals.

Yours in Christ

Matt

[D28guy]

Matt,

"it utterly demeans the infallibility of Scripture to leave its interpretation in the hands of fallible individuals."God disagrees with you...

The Bereans were "more fairminded then those in Thessalonica, in that they searched the scriptures daily to see if these things are so"

When God says one thing and the Catholics say something different (and that happens very very regularly), I'm going to side with God every time.

Grace and peace,

Mike

[DHK]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
It makes perfect sense and demonstrates the fundamental flaw in the SS heresy; far from disbelieving the Bible I believe it is the inspired Word of God and it is for that very reason that I reject SS - it utterly demeans the infallibility of Scripture to leave its interpretation in the hands of fallible individuals.

Yours in Christ

Matt Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So what I do is no different than what Paul did.
He gave the Scripture references in the Old Testament. They looked them up. They verified what he said. He probably told them something like this: Here is the gospel: that your Messiah, Christ, died, was buried, and rose again. Consider what the Prophets say: Look in Isaiah 53, in Psalms 22, in Isaiah 7:14; Micah 5:2; and in so many other Scriptures would he refer them to. They would listen, and then take these Scriptures home and look them up again, and study them even further, along with other Scriptures. They would verify what Paul said from the Scriptures.

Remember how Peter preached on the day of Pentecost. "This is the prophecy fulfilled from the Book of Joel..."
"And David also saith...."
Peter quoted Scripture to verify his message. It was Scripture that they could look up and see whether his message was true or not. It was also validated by tongues in that case. But even without the use of spiritual gifts, SS alone was sufficient enough to prove that the message was true. Peter gave account to the Word of God, not to a Magesterium.
DHK