Why do large groups of Christians always seem to fall for such frauds?

[mioque]

Mike Warnke
In 1973, a new book appeared in the Christian press that purported to be Warnke's life story. "The Satan Seller" was written by Warnke with help from David Balsiger, another Christian author. The novel told the story of Warnke's orphaned childhood and his introduction into Satanism by a mysterious acquaintance from college named "Dean Anderson". The book then details Warnke's descent into sexual orgies, alcoholism, and drug dealing. He then ascended in the ranks of Satanism to the level of 'high priest.' Warnke is later removed from his perch by an attempted murder - a heroin overdose - that leaves him angry and disillusioned. He then joins the U.S. Navy, goes to Vietnam, and comes home as an evangelist. The story ends with Warnke happily married to Sue Studer in California.
Warnke never provided even one eyewitness who knew him to be a Satanist despite his claim that there were over 1500 members in his coven. In June 1992, "Cornerstone" released the story at the annual Bookseller's Convention in Dallas. Initial response to the article was overwhelmingly against Warnke, but Word Records stated they would stand by their artist. Finally, with pressure building, Word fired Warnke from its label. On September 30, 1992, Warnke Ministries closed its doors. The fall came less than 100 days after the startling revelations hit the media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Warnke

Rebecca Brown&Elaine&Daniel Michael Yoder
Dr. Rebecca Brown is one of several Christian authors who claim to have been involved with underground Satanic cults. Dr. Brown describes her experiences in books published by Jack Chick publications. Dr. Brown's claims are particularly extreme because she claims to have had physical contact with demons, devils and Satan himself.
http://answers.org/satan/brown.html
http://www.geocities.com/paulblizard/brown.html
http://prattle.antipope.org/autumn98/brown2.html

[mioque]

Leo Taxil
Taxil underwent a public, feigned conversion to Roman Catholicism, and announced his intention of repairing the damage he had done to the true faith. His real intent, however, was to publically slander the Freemasons (who had rejected him for membership), and simultaneously embarrass the Roman Catholic Church.

The first book produced by Taxil after his conversion was a four-volume history of Freemasonry, which contained fictitious eyewitness verifications of their participation in Satanism. With a collaborator who published as "Dr. Karl Hacks," Taxil wrote another book called the Devil in the Nineteenth Century, which introduced a new character "Diana Vaughan," a supposed descendant of the Rosicrucian alchemist Thomas Vaughan. The book contained many implausible tales about her encounters with incarnate demons, one of whom was supposed to have written prophecies on her back with its tail, and another played the piano in the shape of a crocodile.

She was involved in Satanic freemasonry, but was redeemed when one day she professed admiration for Joan of Arc, at whose name the demons were put to flight. As Diana Vaughan, Taxil published a book called Eucharistic Novena, a collection of prayers which were praised by the Pope.

On April 19, 1897, Taxil called a press conference at which he announced he would introduce Diana Vaughan to the press. He announced that he had forged the letter, and that all of his other revelations about the Freemasons were fictitious. He thanked the clergy for their assistance in giving publicity to his wild claims. The hoax material is still used to slander Freemasons to this day. Chick Publications publishes such a tract called The Curse of Baphomet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Taxil

Alberto Rivera
his own story is that he was born in Spain and educated at a Catholic seminary. He claims to have been sent to destroy various Protestant organizations and discredit Protestant leaders, before becoming disillusioned upon finding that the Vatican was behind Freemasonry. He claims that he exposed the Catholic Church at an Ecumenical Conferrence in 1967 at a stadium in Costa Rica to 50,000 people. He claims that the Jesuits sent him to a top-secret location in Spain (then ruled by the Franco dicatorship) to make him recant his faith. According to Rivera, he was tortured and put on drugs until he nearly died. He claims that he was put into an iron lung because his lungs had broken down. But nearly at death, he claims that he asked Jesus to forgive him and then Jesus set him free. He then claims that he flew to London and rescued his sister, a nun, after she nearly died in a convent.

According to Rivera, Jesuits are responsible for the recession, communism, Nazism, the World Wars, the Jonestown Massacre, and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, for which Jack Chick takes Rivera as an authority. Some of these claims are that the Catholic Church justifies homosexuality and abortion, that the Charismatic Movement is a front for the Catholic Church, that the Popes are antichrists, that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Revelation, and that the Prophet Muhammad was used by the Catholic Church to create Islam and destroy the Jews and Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Rivera

[mioque]

John Todd
John Todd, a young "evangelist," has gained a growing following, both here and abroad. He claims to have intimate knowledge of an international conspiracy to take over the world. The conspiracy is supposedly led by a high order of witches called the Illuminati,' in which virtually every major Christian leader and organization is involved. The suspicion and distrust this has created is almost unbelievable.
*
A sampling of the Christian leaders who are supposedly involved in the conspiracy include: C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson-700 Club, Jim Bakker-PTL Club, Oral Roberts, Ralph Wilkerson, Demos Shakarian, Chuck Smith, Walter Martin, Gordon Lindsey, Morris Curello, Andrae Crouch, Pat and Debbie Boone, Evie Tornquist, Honeytree, and churches of all kinds from Assemblies of God to the Southern Baptists, (Let us remember that God has warned us: "Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses." [1 Tim. 5:19] )
*
So, how did he receive this knowledge of a "conspiracy" and what is the message of John Todd? Let's hear John's story from his own material (his booklet Surviving Till the Trumpet).
*
"John Todd was born into a witchcraft family. John's real family name was Collins. The family name was changed from Collins to Todd shortly after the turn of the 20th century to avoid identification . . . Collins is the second most (un) holy name in witchcraft. John was initiated into witchcraft at 14 years of age . . . At 18 he was made a high priest and was in charge of his own coven. He requested permission to join the military so he could establish witch covens at military bases ... He was sent to Vietnam where he fought as a Green Beret.
*
"After finishing his duty in Vietnam he was sent to Germany. While there, John got into an argument with the officer who had been over him in Vietnam. This led to a pistol fight in which the officer was killed . . . On May 1, 1971, John was initiated to become a Grand Druid High Priest. He was given a thirteen-state area to administer. He established his headquarters in San Antonio, Texas. He states that over 90% of politicians in that thirteen-state area received financial support from him and took orders regarding political decisions from him . . . On August 1, 1972 he saw a chart giving the plan for world takeover."
*
The plans included electing Jimmy Carter president. The president was then to enact the following laws:
*
1. New Gun Law to take away guns* from citizens.
2. Removal of tax exemption from* churches.
3. Genocide Act. (If you convert someone from another religion to your religion, then you are tried for murder.)
4. Presidential Martial Law Powers.
5. The Anti-hoarding Act." (Outlaws all food and medical supplies from being stored)
*
World War III-Caused by Israel State battling over petrol, farmlands and chemicals, “ Plans for America . . . Calling for Helter Skelter.' (All trucks, trains, and ships stop. Charles Manson leads army of some 200,000 white prisoners and motorcycle club members to create mass insanity in the streets 6 months after his release by bombing churches, raping, murdering and other fear tactics.) ... Destroy the monetary system. (All money, etc. becomes worthless) . . . Destroy all cropland. 'There will be nothing south of the Mason-Dixon line over two inches high to the Rocky Mountains.' . . .
*
"To make a long story short, John found himself on his knees at about 2 a.m. on Labor Day morning at a- coffee house, " where John received Christ as Savior.
*
"In recent months John has given great emphasis to exposing the plans of the Illuminati for world takeover."
*
Why is John saying these things? There are only three possibilities.
1. What he says is true-and there fore of great importance.
2. What he says he knows is falseand therefore he is using lies and his persuasive abilities for personal gain.
3. What he says he believes to be true but is, in actuality, false; therefore he is deceived either by others or self (i.e., mentally disturbed.).
*
Is what he says true? Todd makes so many statements it would be impossible to examine them all. But what he says can be divided into two categories, that which can be verified and that which cannot. You determine the overall trustworthiness of a witness's testimony in the areas which cannot be verified by whether or not the witness is trustworthy in the areas that can be verified. Thus, if John can be shown trustworthy concerning verifiable things, we should be very careful to deny his statements concerning the nonverifiable. But if he is found untrustworthy concerning verifiable things, such as his own background, we would be foolish indeed to continue to believe his claimed knowledge of a conspiracy.
*
Is there reason to believe John is giving us false testimony? Yes; the only difficulty lies in knowing where to begin. Let's examine some rather significant discrepancies.
*
Concerning Todd's military history, he claims to have served as a Green Beret in Vietnam. But when one examines his military discharge papers there are no such records. Rather, he served as a general clerk/ typist one year, five months and days. (The Todd Phenomenon, or JTP, Darryl Hicks and David Lewis, 1979, p. 54-55)
*
Regarding his story of the shooting and killing of an officer in Germany, again no such records exist. Rather, the records indicate that after having re-enlisted for four years in Kansas,Todd went to Germany serving 4 months and 12 days. The stated reason for his discharge was classified as "Character and mental behavior disorder." (JTP, p. 55-56)
*
Other discrepancies include the testimony of his former wife (a Christian) who claims that he "did not begin to speak about the Illuminati until after hearing of it on tapes, following his conversion. He had his ex-wife, Sharon research the subject for him in the library [note: the Santa Ana Library]. Everything Todd says about the Illuminati can be gotten from books, except his references to Philip Rothschild and his attacks on Christian leaders." (JTP, p. 26)
*
A classic example of his habitual lying would be an incident at The Faith Baptist Church of Canoga Park. The incident started when a member of the church by the name of Mike Griffin had been given a tape by Todd. The tape was a recording of a newscast covering a meeting Todd had conducted in Ventura, Ca. But the tape had been used by Todd before, and on the end of the tape was a recording of a class John had given while he was managing an occult bookstore in Dayton, Ohio. Todd was teaching witchcraft and the date mentioned was "March 3, 1976." An excerpt from the tape included the following: "One reason witchcraft, I feel, is more powerful than Christianity, is it's got about 8,000 years up on it. It's got billions of people believing in it over that period of time. Christianity is a very new religion."

http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?437

[mioque]

Lauren Stratford
Lauren Stratford was the alias under which Laurel Rose Willson, an American woman from Washington State, wrote three books, the most famous of which was Satan's Underground, purporting to tell a true story of her upbringing in a Satanic cult. After an investigation by the Christian magazine Cornerstone demonstrated that Stratford's story was false, Laurel Willson created another false identity with a horrific story to tell, pretending to be Laura Grabowski, a Jewish survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau. Interestingly, one of the things that led to the exposure of "Laura Grabowski" was her befriending Binjamin Wilkomirski and claiming to remember him from the camps, when Wilkomirski himself (real name Bruno Grosjean) turned out to be neither Jewish nor a Holocaust survivor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Stratford

[av1611jim]

Why?
Because fleshy carnal christians WANT to believe the sensationalists. This mindset, (I believe) stems from the early days of the reformation. In those days the RCC WAS very evil. This fueled the Anti-Christ fever.
It hasn't stopped. People WANT to believe they "got the goods" on the current "powers that be", thereby being able to identify exactly WHERE Anti-Christ will come from.

(As if they will be able to DO anything to stop him!)

In HIS service;
Jim

[mioque]

William Schnoebelen
William ('Bill') Schnoebelen is an American Fundamentalist Christian who claims that he was once a Satanist.
A more easily verified criticism is that the sheer number of activities in which Schnoebelen and his associates claim him to have been involved (often, involved in depth) stretches belief. According to the biography on his own page[5], Schnoebelen's curriculum vitae includes:

* Sixteen years as a teacher of witchcraft, Qabalah and ceremonial magick
* Seven years in the Church of Satan
* Nine years as a Freemason
* Five years as a Mormon, where he held "numerous offices, including elders' quorum president"
* A degree in music and education (1971, Loras College)
* Master's degree in theological studies (1980, St. Francis School of Pastoral Ministry; this is a Catholic seminary[6])
* Master's degree in counseling (Liberty University, 1990)
* Nearly thirty years of research into UFO phenomena
* Ability as "a Naturopathic doctor, a Nutritional Herbologist and a Certified Natural Health Professional". [While Iowa does not license naturopathic doctors, the N.D. degree typically requires four years of graduate school study and intensive clinical experience[7].]


According to a timeline[8] offered by Schnoebelen's friend Ed Decker, Schnoebelen became a 'Witch' in 1968; a 'Witch High Priest' in 1973; joined the Church of Satan in 1975; became a Master Mason in 1976; a ' Gnostic Catholic (sic) Bishop' in 1978; joined 'Palladium Masonry' in 1979; obtained his Master's Degree in Theology in 1980; joined the Latter Day Saints Church in 1980 and first attended LDS Temple in 1981, becoming a LDS Quorum President in 1982 and an Institute Teacher in 1983, before 'getting saved' on June 22, 1984.

Among other things, Schnoebelen has also reputedly claimed to have ordained women as a Roman Catholic bishop[9], and to have become a high priest in four different Wiccan traditions in just two years[10].

The dates given in Schnoebelen's books create several apparent conflicts with his biography. For instance, in Masonry: Beyond the Light, Schnoebelen claims that he was a Mormon and a Mason when he was 'saved' in mid-1984; this implies that either he was already a member of both in 1980 when he was studying theology at a Catholic seminary, or his claim of "five years" as a Mormon was exaggerated. In Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie, Schnoebelen reputedly claims that "Up to our departure from the city of Milwaukee in 1984, we were presiding over one of the oldest and largest networks of covens" - implying that before his conversion in that year he was simultaneously a Mormon, a Mason, and a Wiccan. Even if this is true, it would lead many to question the mental state of Schnoebelen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Schnoebelen

[mioque]

Maria Monk
In January 1836 Maria Monk published a book titled Awful Disclosures in which she exposed various scandalous events that, according to her, had occurred at the Hotel Dieu convent in Montreal. Her central claim was that convent nuns were having sexual relations with priests from the neighboring seminary who supposedly entered the convent through a secret tunnel. All babies born of these illicit encounters, Monk claimed, were baptized before being killed and dumped in a lime pit in the basement of the convent. Maria Monk said that she had lived in the convent for a total of seven years before becoming pregnant by a priest. Being unable to bear the thought of having her child killed and dumped in the basement, she had finally fled.

A New York City newspaper editor, Col. William Leete Stone, asked the Bishop for permission to investigate with a team of protestants. The bishop granted his request, and in October 1836 Stone led a team around the convent. With Maria Monk's book in hand, he compared her description of the convent's interior with the convent itself. He found very little correspondence between the two, however he was not allowed to see the nun's rooms or the basement area and had to return to New York City, his investigation unfinished.
Col. Stone later obtained permission to see the entire convent and, on the basis of this fuller investigation, concluded that there was no evidence that Maria Monk "had ever been within the walls of the cloister."
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/mariamonk.html

[Matt Black]

You might want to add Carroll and Mosheim to the list, as large numbers of BBmembers seem to have fallen for their nonsense

Yours in Christ

Matt

[Charles Meadows]

People are people.

They will never cease to disappoint.

[Lamin Dibba]

Mike Warnke
In 1973, a new book appeared in the Christian press that purported to be Warnke's life story. "The Satan Seller" was written by Warnke with help from David Balsiger, another Christian author. The novel told the story of Warnke's orphaned childhood and his introduction into Satanism by a mysterious acquaintance from college named "Dean Anderson". The book then details Warnke's descent into sexual orgies, alcoholism, and drug dealing. He then ascended in the ranks of Satanism to the level of 'high priest.' Warnke is later removed from his perch by an attempted murder - a heroin overdose - that leaves him angry and disillusioned. He then joins the U.S. Navy, goes to Vietnam, and comes home as an evangelist. The story ends with Warnke happily married to Sue Studer in California.
Warnke never provided even one eyewitness who knew him to be a Satanist despite his claim that there were over 1500 members in his coven. In June 1992, "Cornerstone" released the story at the annual Bookseller's Convention in Dallas. Initial response to the article was overwhelmingly against Warnke, but Word Records stated they would stand by their artist. Finally, with pressure building, Word fired Warnke from its label. On September 30, 1992, Warnke Ministries closed its doors. The fall came less than 100 days after the startling revelations hit the media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Warnke
The real shame of all this is that Warnke could have been a great asset to God's Kingdom. I saw him twice in person, once at Pearl Harbor, HI, and the other time in New Orleans. He was a mesmerizing story-teller. If he had only been a truthful story-teller! :( Of course, his private life would also have to match his speaking ministry as well and, as we know, that didn't happen.

Why did we listen to him . . . because he was GOOD at what he did. Sadly, he was not as personally good as his performances were.

Every blessing,
LD

[Claudia_T]

mioque,

Are you a Freemason? Because if you are, I would add that to the list of people falling for frauds.

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Why?
Because fleshy carnal christians WANT to believe the sensationalists. This mindset, (I believe) stems from the early days of the reformation. In those days the RCC WAS very evil. This fueled the Anti-Christ fever.
It hasn't stopped. People WANT to believe they "got the goods" on the current "powers that be", thereby being able to identify exactly WHERE Anti-Christ will come from.

(As if they will be able to DO anything to stop him!)

In HIS service;
Jim I agree! graemlins/thumbs.gif

[mioque]

Matt
I think that JM Carroll and Johann Lorenz von Mosheim are a bit different.
Both (especially von Mosheim) had real, reasonably distinguished careers not based on the spread of their more nonsensical ideas.
Both were basically sane, while the 10 I listed (with the possible exception of Taxil) all seem to have suffered from some psychological, or neurological defect. They might be considered victims of their pathological urge to fabricate lies as well as frauds.
Finally, basically everybody on this board will agree that the 10 I listed weren't telling the truth, while a considerable minority around here still believes the tall tales put forth by Carroll, Alexander Hislop or Charles Chiniquy.

[mioque]

Claudia_T
graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif

What gave you that peculiar idea?

ps. No I'm not. Never was, nor is anybody in my family or in my church.

[rsr]

mioque said:

"Finally, basically everybody on this board will agree that the 10 I listed weren't telling the truth ... "

I've run across some who won't.

Interesting most on your list have some connection with Jack Chick ...

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by mioque:
Matt
I think that JM Carroll and Johann Lorenz von Mosheim are a bit different.I have never heard of these people. I will have to check them out.

Joseph Botwinick

[Helen again]

There are several reasons people fall for people like those above:

1. Because true Christians still like to hear stories of God's grace and mercy. And we still like to laugh. I loved the Warnke tapes until I found he was a fraud. Then all I could feel was terribly sad.

2. Because a great many people claiming to be Christian are not followers of Jesus, just using His name (in vain). Therefore they are ripe for any fraud which appeals to them in one way or another.

3. Because sensationalism sells and supposedly reputable Christian publications and mc's and hosts support and present these frauds.

By the way, I figure you must be Roman Catholic because you included Hislop on your list. I have read Two Babylons and I would like to say here that I have rarely read anything as well researched and presented. He was no fraud. His research was impeccable. Nor did he ask for money or fame or anything else. He simply presented what he had found. If you are Roman Catholic, however, of course you will hate him and what he exposed.

[D28guy]

Helen,

"By the way, I figure you must be Roman Catholic because you included Hislop on your list. I have read Two Babylons and I would like to say here that I have rarely read anything as well researched and presented. He was no fraud. His research was impeccable. Nor did he ask for money or fame or anything else. He simply presented what he had found. If you are Roman Catholic, however, of course you will hate him and what he exposed."I've found that its generally a normal Catholic practice to viciously attack the author of any book that presents the truth about Catholicism. I guess thats a whole lot easier than actually refuting what they share.

Hislop, Dave Hunt, T.A. McMahon, Mary Ann Collins, etc etc. All have very effectual and fruitful ministries devoted to proclaiming liberating truth for those caught in the web of Catholicism and its very foundational and sometimes damning idolatries and heresies.

God bless,

Mike

[mioque]

rsr
Chick seems to have a humongous blindspot when it comes to pathological liars. At least as long as they spin their tales about groups he already distrusts anyway. Either that or he knows that flamboyance sells in the comics industry. ;)

[mioque]

Joseph

About Von Mosheim
If you recently brushed up on your German this should do it.
http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/m/mosheim_j_l.shtml

JM Carroll is nowadays best known for his attempt to give the baptists Apostolic Succession while simultaniously relieving churches who actually believe in that stuff of it.
Behold 'The Trail of Blood.' !
http://users.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm

[mioque]

Helen again
For starters I'm IFB not Roman Catholic.
I carefully did not include Hislop in my list.
I only mentioned him in passing as being somewhat different from the one's I listed, in a response.
I wanted the fraudulent nature of those I listed not to be controversial in this thread.


As for Hislop and his impeccable research.
Yeah right.
If you truly want to find out specific reasons for why Hislop isn't being taken serious by any reputable churchhistorian nowadays you can dig a couple of arguments out of the following links. There are lots more. I for one am not going to mention the man or his work in this thread again.
http://www.geocities.com/jayce8565/babylon.html
http://www.equip.org/free/DC187.htm
http://www.tektonics.org/guest/hislop01.html

[mioque]

Mike
Dave Hunt, T.A. McMahon, Mary Ann Collins all weren't mentioned by me in this thread.
Why do you bring them up in a thread about those who are recognized by all around here as mentally unstable frauds?
You know about exposé's on them in Cornerstone magazine I haven't heard about?

[D28guy]

mioque,

"Mike
Dave Hunt, T.A. McMahon, Mary Ann Collins all weren't mentioned by me in this thread."I wasnt responding to a post of yours, but rather one part of Helens post. You can tell what I was responding to by reading whats in the quote box ;) )

"Why do you bring them up in a thread about those who are recognized by all around here as mentally unstable frauds?"The reason why I brought them up is that I was adding some additional fine works whos authors are slammed by Catholics to the book Helen mentioned...Two Babylons.

God bless,

Mike

[mioque]

"The reason why I brought them up is that I was adding some additional fine works whos authors are slammed by Catholics"
"
The Catholics aren't always alone or without good reason when they start slamming.


Ralph Wood row has spoken to many different churches, groups, and conferences over the past 42 years, sharing the glad news of Jesus Christ. He is the author of 13 books with over 500,000 copies in print. Ralph and his wife, Arlene, Live in Palm Springs, California

In my earlier Christian experience, certain literature fell into my hands that claimed a considerable amount of Babylonian paganism had been mixed into Christianity. While the Roman Catholic Church was the primary target of this criticism, it seemed the customs and beliefs with which pagan parallels could be found had also contaminated other churches. Much of what I encountered was based on a book called The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (1807-1862)

Over the years The Two Babylons has impacted the thinking of many people, ranging all the way from those in radical cults (e.g., the Jehovah’s Witnesses) to very dedicated Christians who hunger for a move by God but are concerned about anything that might quench His Spirit. Its basic premise is that the pagan religion of ancient Babylon has continued to our day disguised as the Roman Catholic Church, prophesied in the Book of Revelation as "Mystery Babylon the Great" (thus, the idea of two Babylons---one ancient and one modern). Because this book is detailed and has a multitude of notes and references, I assumed, as did many others, it was factual. We quoted "Hislop" as an authority on paganism just as "Webster" might be quoted on word definitions.

As a young evangelist, I began to preach on the mixture of paganism with Christianity, and eventually I wrote a book based on Hislop, titled Babylon Mystery Religion (Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Assn., 1966). In time, my book became quite popular, went through many printings, and was translated into Korean, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and several other languages. Hundreds quoted from it. Some regarded me as an authority on the subject of "pagan mixture." Evan the noted Roman Catholic writer Karl Keating said, "Its best-known proponent is Ralph Woodrow, author of Babylon Mystery Religion". 1

Many preferred my book over The Two Babylons because it was easier to read and understand. Sometimes the two books were confused with each other, and once I even had the experience of being greeted as "Reverend Hislop"! As time went on, however, I began to hear rumblings that Hislop was not a reliable historian, I heard this from a history teacher and in letters from people who heard this perspective expressed on the Bible Answer Man radio program. Even the Worldwide Church of God began to take a second look at the subject. As a result, I realized I needed to go back through Hislop’s work, my basic source, and prayerfully check it out.

As I did this, it became clear: Hislop’s "history" was often only an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths. He claimed Nimrod was a big, ugly, deformed black man. His wife, Semiramis, was a beautiful white woman with blond hair and blue eyes. But she was a backslider known for her immoral lifestyle, the inventor of soprano singing and the originator of priestly celibacy. He said that the Babylonians baptized in water, believing it had virtue because Nimrod and Semiramis suffered for them in water; that Noah’s son Shem killed Nimrod; that Semiramis was killed when one of her sons cut off her head, and so on. I realized that no recognized history book substantiated these and many other claims.

The subtitle for Hislop’s book is "The Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife." Yet when I went to reference works such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, The Americana, The Jewish Encyclopedia, The Catholic Encyclopedia, The Worldbook Encyclopedia – carefully reading their articles on "Nimrod" and "Semiramis" – not one said anything about Nimrod and Semiramis being husband and wife. They did not even live in the same century. Nor is there any basis for Semiramis being the mother of Tammuz. I realized these ideas were all Hislop’s inventions.

If we sought to base an argument about George Washington and his wife, we should at least start out with facts. We could show who George Washington was, that he had a wife named Martha, when they lived, and continue from there. But if no historian was certain who George Washington was, or if he even had a wife, or when they lived, this would not be a sound basis on which to prove anything. Such is the inherent weakness of Hislop's thesis that papal worship is the worship of Nimrod and his wife.

I saw that a more direct and valid argument against errors in the Roman Catholic Church (or any other group) is the Bible itself, not ancient mythology. For example, the Bible speaks of a minister being "the husband of but one wife" and that "forbidding people to marry" is a doctrine of devils (1 Tim. 3:2; 4:3). This provides a stronger argument against priestly celibacy than trying to show that ancient priests of Semiramis castrated themselves.

While seeking to condemn the paganism of Roman Catholicism, Hislop produced his own myths. By so doing, he theorized that Nimrod, Adonis, Apollo, Attes, Ball-zebub, Bacchus, Cupid, Dagon, Hercules, Januis, Linus, Lucifer, Mars, Merodach, Thithra, Molock, Narcissus, Oannes, Oden, Orion, Osiris, Pluto, Saturn, Teitan, Typhon, Vulcan, Wodan, and Zoraster were all one and the same. By mixing myths, Hislop supposed that Semiramis was the wife of Nimrod and was the same as Aphrodite, Artemis, Astarte, Aurora, Bellona, Ceres, Diana, Easter, Irene, Iris, Juno, Mylitta, Proserpine, Rhea, Venus, and Vesta.

Take enough names, enough stories, and enough centuries; translate from one language to another; and a careless writer of the future might pass on all kinds of misinformation, Gerald Ford, and American president, might be confused with Henry Ford, the car manufacturer. Abraham Lincoln might end up as the inventor of the automobile, the proof being that many cars had the name "Lincoln". The maiden name of Billy Graham’s wife is Bell. She has sometimes gone by the name Ruth Bell Graham. The inventor of the telephone was Alexander Graham Bell. By mixing up names, someone might end up saying Billy Graham was the inventor of the telephone; or that he invented Graham Crackers. In fact, the inventor of Graham Crackers was Sylvester Graham. Again, similarities could be pointed out. Both men were named Graham. Both men were ministers. But the differences make a real difference: Sylvester was a Presbyterian and Billy a Baptist, and they were from different generations.

Building on similarities while ignoring differences is an unsound practice. Atheists have long used this method in an attempt to discredit Christianity altogether, citing examples of pagans who had similar beliefs about universal floods, slain and risen saviors, virgin mothers, heavenly ascensions, holy books, and so on.

As Christians, we don’t reject prayer just because pagans pray to their gods. We don’t reject water baptism just because ancient tribes plunged into water as a religious ritual. We don’t reject the Bible just because pagans believe their writings are holy or sacred.

The Bible mentions things like kneeling in prayer, raising hands, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in the temple, pillars in front of the temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, cities of refuge, bring forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horsed of fire, and the offering of first fruits. Yet, at one time or another, similar things were known among pagans. Does this make the Bible pagan? Of course not!

If finding a pagan parallel provides proof of paganism, the Lord Himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in His hand (Ps. 78:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14) Pagans worshipped the sun; the Lord is called the "Sun of Righteousness" (Mal. 4:2), Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright and Morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagans built a high tower in Babylon; the Lord is a high tower (2 Sam. 22:3). Pagans worshipped idolatrous pillars; the Lord appeared as a pillar of fire (Exod. 13:21-22). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4).

I realized that citing a similarity does not provide proof. There must be a legitimate connection. Lets suppose on May 10 a man was stabbed to death in Seattle. There were strong reasons for believin

[Born Again Catholic]

Why do large groups of Christians always seem to fall for such frauds?

Your guys historical perspective is just a little more recent than mine, I am still wondering the same thing about followers of Luther, Calvin, and Wesley and all the breakaway churches which sprung from these breakaway churches etc. :D

[Born Again Catholic]

Doublepost

[music4Him]

Why do large groups of Christians always seem to fall for such frauds?
Wow thats a really scary question if you think about it, but what what is the pecking order as far as denominations go? That is to say... who has the largest following? Who has the second largest? ect....

[Helen again]

Not going to post on this thread after this, but Hislop's references have been checked out -- by me, among others. There is nothing fake about them. In back of most mythologies are cores of truth. The trick is to strip away the mythology and find out what is actually being remembered. Hislop used a number of methods to do this which are quite 'legal.' One of them was through linguistics. His footnotes are evidence of where he went to find out material in this area.

In the meantime, if you consider black to be ugly, that's up to you. But the evidence is that Nimrod/Ninus was probably very dark skinned.

One interesting side note from my own research is the possibility that Gilgamesh was the son of Semiramis after the death of Nimrod at the hand or orders of Shem. The memory of events and timing fits, as does the characterization of the mother of Gilgamesh. It doesn't really matter if I am right or wrong here, but the subject fascinates me.

It is through Hislop's research that I realized, by the way, what the references to us being under the shadow of God's wings, etc. actually meant in the ancient idioms. For those who are interested in Two Babylons, I highly recommend the introduction and at least the first two chapters. The book is on line here:
http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/default.htm

Do NOT ignore the footnotes. This book is not easy to get through. It presumes a much higher level of education regarding ancient history than we are given nowdays. But if you take your time and go through at least the beginning carefully, you will be amazed at how much you can learn. And yes, the research is incredible.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
Your guys historical perspective is just a little more recent than mine, I am still wondering the same thing about followers of Luther, Calvin, and Wesley and all the breakaway churches which sprung from these breakaway churches etc. :D graemlins/laugh.gif I've got to give points for that one B.A.C. smile.gif But hey, maybe those you mentioned only broke away because the Church went off the rails? :eek: ;)

[mioque]

Born Again Catholic
I'm agreeing with Pete on this. graemlins/thumbs.gif

[D28guy]

"But hey, maybe those you mentioned only broke away because the Church went off the rails?"Followers of Jesus Christ were considered "dangerous 'frauds' " by those in religious authority since the beginning when they were fed to the lions. The Catholic Church having the "blood of the saints of God" and "the martyrs for Jesus" on her hands is nothing new.

To say the Catholic Church "went off the rails" is the understatement of the ages.

Mike

[mioque]

music4Him
Let's assume for one second that we are not going to derail this thread into the standard denominational warfare.
But we can establish a pecking order of primary audience and primary attack target for each fraud.


Mike Warnke
attacked: Satanists
audience: Evangelicals

Rebecca Brown
attacked: Satanists (who ofcourse run a vast conspiracy)
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

Elaine
attacked: Satanists (who ofcourse run a vast conspiracy)
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

Daniel Michael Yoder
attacked: Jews (who ofcourse run a vast conspiracy)
audience: (closet) anti-semites/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

Leo Taxil
attacked: Freemasonry
audience: the Roman Catholic Church

Alberto Rivera
attacked: the Jesuits (who run a conspiracy even vaster than that of the earlier mentioned satanists)
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously

John Todd
attacked: everybody not in his audience it seems all linked in one vast conspiracy.
audience: Fundamentalist Christians

Lauren Stratford
attacked: Satanism
audience: Evangelicals/Holocaust survivors supportgroups/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

William Schnoebelen
attacked: witchcraft/Satanism/Mormonism/Catholicism
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously

Maria Monk
attacked: Catholicism
audience: everybody who didn't like people immigrating from mostly catholic countries to the USA.

[mioque]

Helen
"Hislop's references have been checked out -- by me, among others."
"
And by a host of 20th century archeologists and linguists 2 of whom ended up as guestlecturers in a course on 19th century Anti-Catholicism in the Englishspeaking world I followed back in the 80's. I got 2 credits out of the whole thing and among other things all the information one is ever going to need to know about The Two Babylons.

"In the meantime, if you consider black to be ugly, that's up to you. But the evidence is that Nimrod/Ninus was probably very dark skinned. "
"
:confused:

"Do NOT ignore the footnotes."
"
Indeed if you look them up (much harder nowadays, but not undoable) you find out how much Hislop warped what his sources said.

[yeshua4me2]

amen pete.

[music4Him]

Originally posted by mioque:
music4Him
Let's assume for one second that we are not going to derail this thread into the standard denominational warfare.
But we can establish a pecking order of primary audience and primary attack target for each fraud.


Mike Warnke
attacked: Satanists
audience: Evangelicals

Rebecca Brown
attacked: Satanists (who ofcourse run a vast conspiracy)
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

Elaine
attacked: Satanists (who ofcourse run a vast conspiracy)
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

Daniel Michael Yoder
attacked: Jews (who ofcourse run a vast conspiracy)
audience: (closet) anti-semites/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

Leo Taxil
attacked: Freemasonry
audience: the Roman Catholic Church

Alberto Rivera
attacked: the Jesuits (who run a conspiracy even vaster than that of the earlier mentioned satanists)
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously

John Todd
attacked: everybody not in his audience it seems all linked in one vast conspiracy.
audience: Fundamentalist Christians

Lauren Stratford
attacked: Satanism
audience: Evangelicals/Holocaust survivors supportgroups/ folks who believe in satanic ritual abuse.

William Schnoebelen
attacked: witchcraft/Satanism/Mormonism/Catholicism
audience: Christians who take Chick tracts seriously

Maria Monk
attacked: Catholicism
audience: everybody who didn't like people immigrating from mostly catholic countries to the USA. mioque~ I was just wondering out of the denominations which had the largest following.....I assume its Catholic or Baptist is it not?

I am in no way was saying that since these churches have such large groups of Christians in them that they are frauds, but the way your head line reads in the fourm it made me think thats what your topic was about. Excuse me for asking a honest question! But theres no need to get ugly towards me. :rolleyes:

[mioque]

music4Him
The Roman Catholic Church is currently by far the largest denomination in the world.

[Nevertheless]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Why do large groups of Christians always seem to fall for such frauds?
Wow thats a really scary question if you think about it, but what what is the pecking order as far as denominations go? That is to say... who has the largest following? Who has the second largest? ect.... Perhaps you misunderstood. "Large groups of Christians" does not mean large denominations, simply lots of Christians.

[mioque]

Indeed.

[Born Again Catholic]

mioque~ I was just wondering out of the denominations which had the largest following.....I assume its Catholic or Baptist is it not? I haven't looked at the numbers in few years but I believe Baptists are a small minority of Christians, the numbers of christians in the world were something like this.

1.1 Billion Catholic Christians (1 Billion Latin rite Christians plus 100 million Orthodox Christians in union with Rome.)

250 Million Orthodox Christians- (not in union with Rome)

600-700 Million - All other christians- (i.e. those that have broken away from historical christianity,whose denomination maybe with the best of intentions wasstarted by some fraud or another :D )


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But hey, maybe those you mentioned only broke away because the Church went off the rails?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Church never got off the rails it has taught a consistent faith for 2,000 years, most christian faiths seem to change their beliefs regularly. A Baptist from just a few generations back would probably have a lot of problems with the Baptist faith of today which may include Contraception, the Rapture, women pastors, etc.

[Ps104_33]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[billwald]

Maybe because Christians are no smarter than other people?

I thought the thread would be about people getting taken by second rate workers who advertise as "Christian."

[D28guy]

Born Again Catholic...

"The Church never got off the rails it has taught a consistent faith for 2,000 years,..."Oh my.

Obviously, you have been fully, and completly brainwashed.

Either that or you are joking and you forgot to put a smiley face or winking guy or something after that so we know not to think you actually believe that.

"most christian faiths seem to change their beliefs regularly."And of course the Catholic Church hasnt changed since its beginning in the 3rd century, right? 1700 years of teaching "consistently" the same thing, with no changes or additions, right?

graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif

If you actually believe that, than you are in desperate need of taking the blinders off and taking a good honest look at the thing called the Catholic Church that you think is Gods church.

Would you like me to post a "development of doctrine" chart regarding the Catholic Church? One that shows....century after century...the Catholic Church adding, and changing, and adding, and changing, and adding, and changing, etc?

Stunned,

Mike

[Born Again Catholic]

Mike

The Lord promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us to all truth, thus each generation gettining deeper, fuller, expanding knowledge of our faith and God's truth is expected and prophesized by scripture.

Scripture also promises us that the church will be a "pillar of truth", thus for this prophecy to be true you should be able to point to a Church that has taught a consistent truth since the time of the apostles.

The hallmark of protestant church's is that they change their beliefs, contradicting previously held beliefs, from one generation to the next and as this thread points out one generation gets upset as these new ideas get footholds and initially these people with he new ideas are named frauds but eventually some of these ideas get integrated into mainstream protestant teaching

Contraception is a good example because all Christians denominations interpreted the bIble against contraception and taught agianst contraception until the 1930's. When the Anglicans started teaching that contraception may be ok under special circumstances, the reaction of the Christian world was of disgust and absolute scandal, similar to how the world feels todfay about the Episcopalians (Anglicans) taking the lead in teaching that ordianing practicing homosexuals is a holy act. Now Just two generations later protestants can't phathom that all christianity taught against contraception for 1900 years and see nothing wrong with it. Adjusting previously held biblical reasons against contraception for non-sensical reasons to support it. I see the same result happening with homosexuality within 2 generations virtually all protestant churches will accept homosexuality.


Typically when non-catholics attack Catholics onthe consistency of Catholic teaching beliefs it is not on matter of faith and moral of which a consistent truth has been taught for 2,00 years, but on a matter of church discipline (i.e. celibacy, meat on fridays etc). Or they attack some of the weak men who have served the Church. Scripture promises that the Church will have it bad people and the Lord will deal with them.

[Mike McK]

The only one of those guys I'm really familiar with is Warnke.

I discovered him just as God was getting me ready to come to Christ.

As a new Christian, a lot of my early understanding of the Gospel came directly from Warnke.

In the roughly two years before the Cornerstone article came out, I worked for the folks who do the Creation Festival and Christian concerts in and around the Philadelphia area.

I asked Harry and Tim and Kathy and all those guys to get him and they said no. I kept asking. They kept saying no.

One day they pulled me aside and said that the reason they wouldn't hire him was "creibility problems" and left it at that.

The CCM machine down in Nashville knew very well what was going on for at least two years before it was made public and they continued to promote him.

I was shocked. I really was devestated. Not because I had the guy on a pedestal or anything, but because he seemed to get such a pass from everybody, even after doing some really vile things.

Of all of the famous preacher scandals over the last twenty years or so, his disturbs me the most.

The other guys were nuts and would say outrageous things but Warnke, he was a real guy who was pretty faithful to the Gospel.

What's it been? Fifteen years? I'm still not sure what to say.

What's sad is that he claims to have been restored, but he's right back telling the same lies that got him into trouble in the first place.

[music4Him]

Thank you Born Again Catholic for answering my question. graemlins/wave.gif

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Me too - Mike Warnke is the only one I've heard of. I saw him at First Baptist in Atlanta (Dr. Charles Stanley's church) back in the 1980's. I remember everyone was so impressed with his testimony, and I still have one of his albums (somewhere).