Chip implants and the anti-christ

[wtrsju]

This story perked my interest. I remember growing up and my Grandmother was always talking about the Rapture. She said the "mark of the beast" would be a chip implant. Now I differ from my family because I am far more conservative then them in matters of faith. They are pentacostal, I am Baptist. Anyway this story still bothered me, probably because of my upbringing. I guess it (upbringing) does have more of an impact than one would imagine. Here's the link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163983,00.html

[TaterTot]

Grandma also thought "linnie-mint" was the medicine of choice for all ailments.

There is so much speculation about end times, and relating this as well would be too. Of course we are in the end times. Its closer now than ever before.

[wtrsju]

Yes I love my Grandma, but i'll tell you we don't see eye-to-eye on religion. It just really caught my eye because it reminded me of what she said. Thought some others might have some thoughts on it, whether from a civil rights stance or an end times stance.

[KenH]

We had a dog that we had to have put to sleep last week that came with a chip in her. Never had to make use of it as she never got lost in the five years she lived with us.

[C4K]

Absolutely no problems with the chip. If the costs in reasonable I will probably have it done. Great benefits to having one.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

Well, I have my reservations about the chip, and here's why.

With all the identity thefts going on, and banks and credit card companies mistakenly giving out millions of peoples private information by mistake,the next logical step,(IMOHO)is to make sure that none of that can happen! Put all the info on the "chip", and then even if someone else gets your info, they can't use it because they don't have access to your chip, which is implanted on your body!

I used to think that it would be done because people lose their credit cards, or have them stolen, so a mark of some kind or the chip on the body would solve that. Now, there are lots of other reasons to do it.

So as I see it, we could be taken very quickly to a cashless society where no one can buy or sell without the mark (chip).

Rev. 13-17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Just my thoughts on the subject.

Peace,

Tam

[C4K]

Since I am pre-trib, pre-mil I won't be here for that ;) .

[prophecynut]

wtrsju

It's remarkable your Grandmother knew of the chip implant, I didn't think the technology was available back then. When I began studying prophecy 20 years ago the UPC bar code was considered to be the mark, it has three double bars of the same thickness which have the value of 666.

The current chip implant cannot be the "mark" because it is implanted underneath the skin, a mark has to be on the surface of the skin. The fore runner of the coming mark was developed by Interval Research, it is a programmable tattoo with a readout that is visible through the skin. The company did have a picture of it on the internet but was quickly removed after internet chatter identified it as the mark. The following article is from Jack Van Impe's web site:

Are High Tech Biometric ID Technologies Leading to the "Mark of the Beast"?

In the July issue of Wired magazine, writer Ann Davis asks, "Because they deliver security and privacy like never before, biometrics-iris scans hand geometry, voiceprints, even body odor -- put us eyeball to eyeball with the future of identification technologies. But are the the mark of the beast?" Good question, but obviously not sice the infamous mark to be given by the Abtichrist to all his followers (Revelation 13:16-18) will not be instituted until after the Rapture of the Church (1 Thessalonians 2:3). However, new ID developments make one believe that for the first time in history the technology and the science are now available to be able to implement such a universal mark. In the same issue of Wired and also reported in the May 19 issue of Business Week, brief articles discuss Andrew Singer's recent patent, a programmable tatoo." The patent is for a human microchip implant with a Liquid Crystal Display with a readout that is visible through the skin. Interval Research, a secretive R&D firm owned by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allan, has the patent technology but says it has no commercial uses for it. (At least not at this time!!)

The next step is a programmable computer tattoo probably laser imbedded on the skin. The forehead and back of the hand were chosen for its location because of the greater degree of temperature change, thus providing the pulsating + to - cycle to energize the computer.

It will not be the mark of the Antichrist as most Christians believe, rather it will be the mark of the image set up in the temple (Rev. 13:14). Both the mark and the image will be computers.

Do a search on "programmable tattoo interval research"

[just-want-peace]

Since I am pre-trib, pre-mil I won't be here for thatRight on Brother, right on!!!!

MARANATHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TexasSky]

I have problems with the idea of the chip because there are so many problems with modern technology already. There is identity theft, there is computer interference, there are human errors. What if your "scan" somehow picks up the chip of the person doing your scan, or the medical records of someone whose 16 digit number is one digit off from yours?

[billwald]

OK as long as it is the left hand. <G>

[wtrsju]

The verse in Rev. quoted earlier is the one that concerned and still concerns her. I enjoy the posts here because i'm somewhat in the dark in this realm. I must admit I don't have a strong grasp on this subject, so everyone is bringing to light some great ideas.

[KenH]

Originally posted by C4K:
Since I am pre-trib, pre-mil I won't be here for that ;) . So believing in a particular eschatology makes it come about? I wish it was that
easy. :D

[C4K]

That post was had one purpose in mind Ken, to get a response from my brethren who "differ" with me in their eschatology smile.gif ;) .

[KenH]

I wish that all Christians could avoid all bad stuff on this earth but God promised us neither a rose garden on this earth nor an avoiding of the thorns and thistles of life. But, praise His name, He did promise to see us through the thorns and thistles. \o/

[C4K]

I know we differ on this issue, but also know where I stand.

One day we will all be able to fellowship and see, possibly, how we all had it wrong and laugh about how simple it all really was ;) .

[KenH]

I agree, Roger. I am thoroughly convinced that none of us truly understand how God will wrap up this present heavens and earth beyond understanding that Jesus will return and that we will all stand before God.

It's all speculation beyond that. smile.gif

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by C4K:


One day we will all be able to fellowship Amen to that, just think of the reaction of those in Christ when they "see the Day approaching" (Heb. 10:25).

[yeshua4me2]

i saw a clip of a saturday night live clip on the chip used for purchases in san diego, spain and florida....."today a store in san diego started offering an implanted chip with which patrons can purchase. they will not have to wait in line at the check out because of detectors in the door, will automaticlly check your purchases, and increase the rate your identy is stolen."

think how much problems with cloning of cell phones (though it's not in the news it's still a problem for many). of course now is the only time in history in which a "mark for buying and selling" is logicsticly possible", as we now have 100% blanket coverage with GPS, and if there is a chip, they will firnd a way to use it to get more taxes, as the recent legislation in washington state proves. (that was a driving tax, that would require every motorist to have a satellite tracker (on star) in every vehicle, and would get taxed on the amount of milage in a year)


big bro is comming and truthfully is already here, just look at Ft Huachuca, az.

thankyou and God Bless

[just-want-peace]

big bro is comming and truthfully is already here, just look at Ft Huachuca, az. :confused: :confused:

A bit of explanation, please!

[BobRyan]

The chip is a good way to "identify" but simply being ABLE to identify is not the crime of the mark of the beast.

[bmerr]

To all,

bmerr here. Can anyone find a reference to "the anti-Christ"? John's epistles speak of the spirit of anti-christ, and say that many anti-christs were already in the world when he was still writing(1 Johnm 2:18; 4:3; 2 John 7). The main qualification was simply to deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

Many speak as though anti-christ is one person who hasn't come into the world yet, but John doesn't describe anti-christ that way.

Thoughts, opinions, insults? I'll take whatever you've got! graemlins/laugh.gif

In Christ,

bmerr

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by C4K:
Since I am pre-trib, pre-mil I won't be here for that ;) . Me neither.

[prophecynut]

Those who are pre-7 year trib are in for a real shocker, you will have missed the Rapture when the 7 year covenant is confirmed.

1 John 2:18
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many Antichrists have come." NIV

The Antichrist is "the man of lawlessness" (2 Thess. 2:3) and "the beast" (Rev. 13:1-10; 19:20).

[wtrsju]

Very interesting Prophecynut. I never looked at the Antichrist being more then one.

[superdave]

I have problems with the idea of the chip because there are so many problems with modern technology already. There is identity theft, there is computer interference, there are human errors. What if your "scan" somehow picks up the chip of the person doing your scan, or the medical records of someone whose 16 digit number is one digit off from yours?The current iterations of chip authentication preclude the stealing or borrowing of another person's chip because they do not carry an authentication key, they merely verify the biometric identity of the implantee.

For instance, at military bases and DoD facilities, employees may carry a keychain fob, with rfid remote id capabilities, but it would not be like your id card that opens the door at work, which theoretically anyone could use, it would have your specific biometric signature on it, and the code required to check that against your real signature. You walk up, the retinal scanner (or odor scanner, or fingerprint scanner, or hand geometry scanner, or voiceprint scanner, or iris scanner, you name it) would scan your identifying feature, but instead of the company or organization having your signature in their computers (where the real risk is) it checks it against the signature on your card, keychain, or implant, verifying that you are who the id says you are.

I just read my post and its very confusing, but trust me when I say its actually more secure that current methods if ID, i mean, use the automated check in at the airport, they use your credit card to verify your id, since banks are about the most advanced with all this stuff. It still is rather ridiculous.

As for the antichrist, he will use the available technology of the day to operate his global empire, in the 70's the jesus people films had bar codes on people, now its rfid implants, in another 50 years who knows.

[prophecynut]

superdave

The Greek word for "mark" is charagma , a stamp or impress on the skin. This mark has the same name or number as the image of the Antichrist that is set up in the temple by the false prophet (Rev. 13:14,17). Both the mark and the image are computers, the image will be a bio-computer using the DNA of the Antichrist.

I believe the mark will have to be a data storage programmable microprocessor tattoo with a maintenance-free regenerating electromichanical power supply like that of "Digital Angel," having a transmitting coil or transceiver emitting a low-frequency radio wave read by a receiver.

Digital Angel implanted within the body is powered electromechanically through the movement of muscles, will it be the same for the tattoo? Maybe instead the mark will utilize the pulsating heart beat to power its self. Are you able to give further insight?

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Both the mark and the image are computers, the image will be a bio-computer using the DNA of the Antichrist.

Once again we see conjecture being stated as fact.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

PC said:
Those who are pre-7 year trib are in for a real shocker, you will have missed the Rapture when the 7 year covenant is confirmed.
-------------------------------------------

My question is;

So are you saying that nobody will know who the anti-christ is until after the rapture?

Peace,

Tam

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

O.K. I meant that last message for Prophecynut!!

(I have no idea who PC is)

:eek:

Peace,

Tam

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

(I have no idea who PC is)
PC is that thing staring at you graemlins/type.gif

The Antichrist has to be revealed before the rapture.

In Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians, he said "our being gathered to him" in the day of the Lord or Christ "will not come until" the Antichrist is revealed by claiming to be god in the temple. His revealing is a sign to the Church that the rapture is soon to follow. Any time after the third temple is completed in the first half of the 70th week, the Antichrist will be revealed. The length of time between his act and the Rapture is unknown, anywhere from several years to several weeks. Enough time must be allowed for the dissemination of this important event for the Church to hear about it world wide. The Thessalonians were told to look for it so is the Church today to look for it. It occurs before the day of the Lord during the Church Age, not like the abomination which occurs during that day.

[Magnetic Poles]

Amazing speculation and as C4K said, conjecture stated as fact. Does anyone really think this whole chip=Mark of the Beast thing isn't widely known? That would never fly, based on that alone.

On this subject, has anyone seen the Washington Mutual commercial where the bank employee staples a barcode onto the customer's forehead and tries to scan him to improve service?

[prophecynut]

Prophecy does not become fact until fulfilled. As we get closer to when the mark is implemented, I'm sure there will be articles published in alternative news sources about the electronic tattoo. As for the dumb downed masses who are manipulated by the lies, deception and propaganda coming from main line news sources, they will remain ignorant of the Globalist's plan of enslavement under the mark.

The Globalist engineered 9-11 as a pretext to invade Iraq and conduct a war against terroism, and possibly they are planning terrorist acts in the US as a pretext to attack Iran.

Was the general populace aware that 9-11 was an inside job? Are they aware Globalist might be planning a re run on a larger scale as a pretext for the Iran attack? Are they aware that the Globalist had prior knowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor, and were the ones who provoked it?

The reason why the activities of evil men are not widely known is because truth is being thrown to the ground and trampled on by the antichrists in world today. Suppression of the truth will allow the Globalist to implement the mark before it is widely known. The destruction of America and the world economy will be used by the Globalist as a pretext for establishing the mark. The mark will not be widely known until they create sufficient chaos to warrant an economic system under the mark. "Order out of Chaos" and the "New World Order." Do a search.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by wtrsju:
I remember growing up and my Grandmother was always talking about the Rapture. She said the "mark of the beast" would be a chip implant.In my lifetime of less than 40 years, I have heard teh cry of not less than a dozen differnt things being the "Mark of the Beast". First it was the social security card. Then Visa credit card. Then bardoces on products. Then it was the ATM card. Then it was rf chips in products like electronics (the kind that make the doors go "beep-beep" when you go through them). I even heard a preacher on the radio say that those dye-tags on clothing was the mark, and another more recently say that health club id tags were the mark of the beast. Now it's rf chips.

None of those things is more likely to be the mark of the beast any more than any other. But I'm sure there will be at least 20 more products associated with the mark before I leave this earth. Until then, I will take it all with a grain of salt and continue to live my life to the best of my imperfect human ability, until the say when I'm an old man and I die in my bed, going home to be with the Lord.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

PN, where does scripture say that the temple has to be built.

You said:Any time after the third temple is completed in the first half of the 70th week, the Antichrist will be revealed

Scripture please.

Selah,

Tam

[Bob]

I don't think a chip inserted in the hand or forehead, or anywhere else will be the Mark of the Beast since these devices can be inserted against a person's will. I believe the "Mark" will be taken as an act of diliberate will only, just as receiving Christ is an act of personal choice.

[prophecynut]

Tam

The most obvious is 2 Thess. 2:4 when the Antichrist "sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God." Another is Rev. 11 when John measures the third temple and counts the worshipers just prior to Israel's destruction. Joel 2:17 speaks of the temple porch and the altar where the priests minister before the LORD. A description of these priests is given in Lam. 4:7. Other OT Scripture are:

Lam. 1:10....Paslms 79:1...Isa. 66:6...Amos 8:3...Mic 1:7...Zep. 3:4

[KenH]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
The Globalist engineered 9-11 as a pretext to invade Iraq So silly of a comment. So very, very silly.

It's a shame to see a poster on this board so thoroughly deceived by propaganda he is reading on some far out website somewhere. :(

[KenH]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Was the general populace aware that 9-11 was an inside job? They couldn't be aware of such since it wasn't an "inside job". :rolleyes:

[yeshua4me2]

the chip is not the mark of the beast, but i do believe it is one of the forruiners of it. as ( i am pre-trib, for the most part). the world has no cles about the mark, just ask some n-saved friend or aquaintence, and you will see.

i was (thought not really) thinking i was a christian and have never heard of the rapture, or anything dealing with the second comming.

i was Lutheran.

study their dogma and you will understand (i was confirmed in the lutheran faith).


if people think knowledge is "widespread" (of the rapture) then they have not enough "streetside" witnessing experience to be of any prectical use.

most americans, have no idea about the rapture, or any endtimes events.

do not confuse Baptists well taught in their doctrine with "any" american.

for those who like history,"vespuccians"

thankyou (again) and God Bless

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Bob:
I don't think a chip inserted in the hand or forehead, or anywhere else will be the Mark of the Beast since these devices can be inserted against a person's will. I believe the "Mark" will be taken as an act of diliberate will only, just as receiving Christ is an act of personal choice. You took the words right out of my mouth!

I also think that anything anyone envisions as the "Mark" is going to be wrong since I don't think it's possible for anyone to know what it will be. So any theory that someone comes up with is automatically out in my book. smile.gif

[ August 04, 2005, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Marcia ]

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by prophecynut:
The Globalist engineered 9-11 as a pretext to invade Iraq So silly of a comment. So very, very silly.

</font>[/QUOTE]WTC Basement Blast And Injured Burn Victim Blows 'Official 9/11 Story' Sky High; Eye Witness Testimony Is Conclusive That North Tower Collapsed From Controlled Demolition
WTC janitor pulls burn victim to safety after basement explosion rocks north tower seconds before jetliner hit top floors. Also, two other men trapped and drowning in a basement elevator shaft, were also pulled to safety from underground explosion..
June 24, 2005

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/article/1518131/28031.htm

[hillclimber]

The technology exists today, and never before, to mark every human being on earth with this clever electronic device.

I believe the Body of Christ will be gone before the mark is inflicted. Once the Body is gone all manner of evil will florish, and the Mark will probably be thought to be, and will be an answer to all kinds of problems. Of course it's main value will be for commerce.

[Claudia_T]

THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND THE SEAL OF GOD


God has an extremely important message to give to His people in these last days of Earth's history! In fact, this message is so important that we see three special angels flying in the midst of heaven to deliver it to the entire world. Those who reject this message will receive the dreaded Mark of the Beast and they receive a devastating punishment for doing so. It is referred to in Revelation Chapter 14 as The Everlasting Gospel (verse 6). The momentous events described in Revelation 14 are portrayed as occurring right before the second coming of Christ, otherwise known as "The Harvest" (see Rev. 14:14-20 and compare with Matt.13:30).

Now let's take a closer look at the Three Angel's Messages, for they concern us all:


Revelation Chapter 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

After the warning against the worship of the beast and his image the prophecy declares: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Since those who keep God's commandments are thus placed in contrast with those that worship the beast and his image and receive his mark, it follows that the keeping of God's law, on the one hand, and its violation, on the other, will make the distinction between the worshipers of God and the worshipers of the beast. And so obviously, those who do receive the Mark of the Beast will have no regard for the commandments of God, while at the same time, God's people do observe them.

Friends, do you see that if we will just allow the Bible to explain itself, that it becomes easy to understand what it means? Instead of imagining all sorts of theories about what it means, we need to let God reveal the truth to us by comparing scripture with scripture. 1Cor:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Now let's examine this in even more detail.... Revelation 14 verse 9 says that those who receive the Mark of the Beast will receive it in their forehead or in their hand. Interestingly enough, in Deuteronomy 6 verses 1-8 we read that God told His people to keep His commandments. Notice that they are told that the commandments of God are to be a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes (on their forehead)!


Deut. 6:
1: Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them
5: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6: And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart
8: And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Thus we have now learned that God's commandments were as a sign or "Mark" on the forehead or hand of His people, while the Mark of the Beast would be His sign or "Mark" on the forehead or hand of his people. Not only that, but this evil mark would involve a disregard for the commandments of God.

We will take note now of Rev. verses 6 and 7:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The Angel just now quoted right straight out of one of the ten commandments. Does anybody recognize which of the commandments? No? -well let me show you:


Exodus 20:
8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The Angel just reminded us to worship God, our Creator, that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters, quoting from the 4th commandment... the Sabbath command! Amazing! And so this "Beast" must hate it when God's people keep His commandments and especially when they recognize Him as their Creator, as we are admonished to do in the 4th commandment.





What is the Seal of God?
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." Revelation 7:1-3.

Well friends, what is God's "seal?" A seal has to do with legal affairs. Laws are created, and they are stamped with the seal of the ruling government. A seal consists of three parts:


The name of the ruler.

The ruler's title.

The territory over which he rules.

When the government seal is placed upon a law, or on currency, it then becomes "official". The nation that is loyal to that government who made the law is to stand behind the law. In the same way, God's seal makes His law official, and the whole loyal universe is to then stand behind it!

Anyone who is disloyal to the seal of that government, and to the law upon which it is placed, is looked upon as being disloyal to the government itself. God's seal is also placed in His law. "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples." Isaiah 8:16.

We just read that the seal of God was to be placed in the forehead of God's faithful and loyal people as well. His law is in our hearts and in our MINDS (forehead). Under the new covenant, God's promise is this: "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those day, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16.

The Holy Spirit who is the one who "seals" us, places the seal of God in our foreheads if we allow it. We now have God's law in our minds, in our conscience, --and we are loyal to it, showing that we are also loyal to the Creator, the Ruler, who Himself declared that we must keep it!

Just as a government ruler uses his "seal" of government to enforce the laws of the land, God uses His "seal" to enforce His law. And at the same time, the Beast will use his seal or mark, to try to enforce his law in the place of God's.

If the 7th day Sabbath is indeed God's seal, then we ought to be able to find the three different parts of a seal within that commandment, correct? Indeed it is there, let's take a close look:

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work . . . For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11.

This is the only place in the Bible where you will find God's seal. Here are the three parts of the seal.


His name - "the Lord."

His title - "thy God" (Creator).

His territory - "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is."
Isn't that amazing? And we ought to expect then that the Beast power would work very hard to hide the truth of the sacred Sabbath from us. After all, it is God's sign or seal!

You may ask, Is the Sabbath really the seal of God? Look at Ezekiel 20:12. "Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them." "And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God." Ezekiel 20:12,20. Note that the word "sign" means the same as "seal" --see Romans 4:11.





The Elijah Message
The coming of the bridegroom was at midnight--the very darkest hour (Matt. 25:6). So too will the coming of Christ take place in the darkest period of this earth's history. The days of Noah and Lot pictured the condition of the world just before the coming of the Son of man. The Scriptures pointing forward to this time tell us that Satan will work with all power and "with all deceivableness of unrighteousness." 2 Thess. 2:9, 10. His working is plainly revealed by the rapidly increasing darkness, the multitudinous errors, heresies, and delusions of these last days. Satan is leading the world captive, yes --but his deceptions are affecting even the professed churches of our Lord Jesus Christ! This great apostasy from the truths of the Scriptures will develop into darkness deep as midnight.

But at this terrible dark time of earth's history, God has a special message to give to the world that is not unlike that given by God's servant Elijah. Before the day of the Lord, Elijah was to be sent to the world to warn them. Malachi 4:4-6: "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." And what was the message that Elijah gave? "And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him." I King 18:21. The Israelites had at that time forsaken God, and turned to the worship of Baal. In this they had departed from God's commandments, and the work of Elijah was to cry out against their worship of Baal, pleading with them to return to the commandments of God.

The Three Angel's Messages of Revelation are a counterpart of that proclaimed by Elijah, because it too calls for people to decide between the worship of the beast and the worship of God (Revelation 14:6-12). This will cause those who understand the sign of the times to cry out against the sinful practices of the people, appealing to them to return to God by keeping His commandments. Revelation 14:9-12: "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation... Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

This prophecy concerning the Elijah message was partially fulfilled in John the Baptist: "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come." Matt. 11:13,14

Luke 1:16,17: And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. This spirit and power of Elias was to be manifested "Before the great and dreadful day of the Lord". Malachi 4,5.

In John the Baptist the Lord raised up for Himself a messenger to prepare the way of the Lord at the first coming of Jesus Christ. He was to bear to the world an unflinching testimony in the denunciation of sin. Luke, in announcing John's mission and work, said, "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Luke 1:17). Many of the Pharisees and Sadducees came to the baptism of John, and addressing these, he said, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father..." Matt 3:7-12.

...so too are the Three Angel's Messages of Revelation the "Elijah Message" of our time, to be given just before the second coming of Christ!





Come out of her, My people
In the Book of Revelation, not only are God's people called to keep His commandments and to avoid receiving the Mark of the Beast, but they are also given the call to "come OUT of Babylon":


Revelation 18:1-4
1: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3: For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Now that we know who God's people are... those who keep His commandments and His Sabbath, --the question is, Who or what then is this "Beast" of Revelation chapter 14? And what is "Babylon"; why are God's people called to come out of her? It would make sense that this Beast power would endeavor to somehow change the Sabbath or otherwise try to hide or get rid of it in some way, right? ...you would be correct in your assumption if that thought crossed your mind. The prophetic book of Daniel also identifies him here:

Dan:7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws.

Yes, this wicked being would think to change the very law of God... --the Sabbath, God's Seal! As a matter of fact, the prophet Isaiah, when prophesying about the end of time when the wicked would be destroyed, gave the very reason why it was that God was so angry with them: Isa:24:5: "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."





...if you will let it, the Bible explains itself. And you dont have to speculate about what it means or invent all sorts of far-out theories about what the Mark of the Beast means.


Claudia

[Claudia_T]

MARK OF THE BEAST Part 2

Now we come to the last point of identity, the "mark of the beast"!

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws. " Daniel 7.25.

6. Take a careful look at what God means when He says that this power would "think to change times and laws." There is only one law of God, and that is found in Exodus 20. There is only one portion of that law in which time is a factor. Let's read the fourth commandment as God wrote it.

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. " Exodus 20:8-1 1.

Can we discover where the Papacy has actually attempted to change the divine law of God affecting a time element? Yes, we certainly can. If you will open any Roman Catholic Catechism and turn to that portion dealing with the law of God, you will discover that the law has indeed been greatly changed. They have left out the second commandment entirely and divided the tenth commandment into two parts, thus attempting to still retain ten commandments. But notice the fourth particularly. The time element has been deliberately removed, along with the express command stating which day is the Sabbath. All that remains are the words, "Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.'

Let us read a most challenging statement made by the Church. They have done exactly what God predicted they would do.

"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret, even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca published in 1900 in Rome by the press of the propaganda.

"The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap.

The pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.

It is within the inspired words "think to change times and laws" that we discover the "mark of the beast."

The following are all authentic quotations that will definitely answer our questions as to what the "mark of the beast" is. Notice them carefully.

"The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."-Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.

You will notice in this information that the Church declares that it was not God Who changed the day from Saturday to Sunday but that they, the papists, were the ones who made this change. The Sabbath was officially changed by the Papacy at the Council of Laodicea on March 7, 364 A.D. That was 43 years after Constantine declared Sunday the day for Christians to honor as a rest day.

"Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?"

"Answer.-Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."-Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.

This quotation emphasizes the fact that since the world accepts Sunday as a day of worship, this acknowledges her supremacy.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.

There is no question concerning the changing of Sabbath the seventh day to Sunday the first day by the Papacy. You can readily see that there is nothing to be found in the Bible about changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. The Papacy is correct in stating that they changed the day.

"In reply to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F. Thomas, Chancellor."

Sunday is the mark of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. It is the "Mark of the Beast." Of this there is absolutely no question, either in the Word of God or in history.

[Claudia_T]

Just as a quick side note:

The lawyer, answering said, evidently quickly, confidently and without hesitation, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." Jews were required to recite Deut. 6:5 and Lev. 19:18 morning and evening. Strict or orthodox Jews wore around their wrists and forehead little leather boxes called phalacteries, which contained these scriptures. They were considered to be a summary of the law. They are certainly the greatest commandment of the Law.

So to have the Mark of the Beast on the forehead and hand isnt going to be some sort of computer chip or "666" plastered across your forehead and hand.

It simply means that you give mental acknowledgement to Satan's ways, his false Law.. in how you think (forehead) and what you do (the hand). And your loyalties lie with him even though you may not claim to do so. You show it by bowing to the beast power. OR you show your loyalty to God by keeping HIS LAW.... HIS COMMANDMENTS. Will you obey God or will you obey a mere CREATURE? God or man, which? the decision is yours.

The angel's warning is: "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" Rev 14:7


Revelation 18:
1: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3: For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

God is calling those who have ignorantly bowed down to the beast power to "come out of her My people"


Claudia

[Claudia_T]

Just another side note:

God has given to us a number whereby this beast power can be identified.

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast. for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Revelation 13:18.

When the pope is crowned he is given the official title of Vicarius Filii Dei, which means Vicar of the Son of God. The name adds to 666

Latin, of course, is the official language of the Papacy, and therefore we would expect to find the Roman numerals adding up his number. It is surprising why so few in this enlightened generation are unaware of the Bible prediction.

One of the most amazing facts is that you can do this in the Latin, in the Hebrew, or in the Greek. It will all add up to the same-666.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by hillclimber:

I believe the Body of Christ will be gone before the mark is inflicted. Once the Body is gone all manner of evil will florish, and the Mark will probably be thought to be, and will be an answer to all kinds of problems. As I've said elsewhere, America's destruction will be the pretext for establishing an economic system based on the mark. Immediately after the fall of America the mark will be implemented as prophesied in Rev. 14:8-9. The spiritually dead saints who die in the Lord from this point on will be blessed with eternal life (v.13). If they had been spiritually alive in Christ before America's fall they would of not been "left behind" to endure the Tribulation.

God through out the ages has been restraining lawlessness; before the Antichrist is revealed the Restrainer "will be taken out of the way" and "all manner of evil will flourish." The world will become "as it was in the days of Noah," with "people eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" up to the day of the Second Coming.

[Claudia_T]

Just a little extra for those who want a little more information. Sometimes old testament prophecies apply to the future such as in the Book of Ezekiel. This is just a chapter I wrote (rough draft) from a booK I'm working on:


Restorer of the Paths to dwell in

We shall soon discover that the Sabbath commandment is the very commandment that Satan would seek to change and even obliterate, because it identifies God as the Creator and sets Him apart from every false god! The Book of Revelation speaks not only of the Beast but also of the False Prophet. But what would the False Prophet teach?

Ezekiel 22:
25: There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
26: Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
27: Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
28: And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

Note.--Untempered mortar is that which is improperly worked, and will not therefore hold together or stand the test. Thus it is with the reasons advanced for keeping Sunday instead of the Bible Sabbath, the seventh day. They are not only unsound and untenable in themselves, but are utterly inconsistent, contradictory, and destructive one of the other, among themselves. In nothing, perhaps, is a lack of agreement better illustrated than in the reasonings assigned for Sundaykeeping. Note the following:

One says the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh, to the first day of the week.

Another says that the Sabbath commandment requires only one day of rest after six days of labor, and hence there has been no change.

Some reason that all ought to keep Sunday, because although, as they affirm, God did not appoint a particular day, yet agreement is necessary; and to have any or every day a sabbath would be equal to no sabbath at all.

Others, to avoid the claims of God's law, assert that the Sabbath precept is one of those ordinances which was against us, contrary to us, blotted out, and nailed to the cross. Still they admit that a day of rest and convocation is necessary, and therefore the day of Christ's resurrection, they say, has been chosen.

Another class say they believe it is impossible to know which is the seventh day, although they have no difficulty in locating the first.

Some are so bold as to claim that Sunday is the original seventh day.

Others, with equal certainty, say that those who keep the seventh day are endeavoring to be justified by the law and are fallen from grace.

Another class, with more liberal views, say they believe that every one should be fully persuaded in their own mind, whether he keep this day, or that, or none at all.

Still again, as if having found the great desideratum or missing link in the argument, men credited with even more than ordinary intelligence, will sometimes declare that it is impossible to keep the seventh day on a round and rolling earth; yet strangely, they find no difficulty in keeping Sunday anywhere, and believe that this day should be observed the world over!

However, said Christ, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

What does the Lord say will become of this wall "daubed with untempered mortar"?

Ezekiel 13:
1: And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2: Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4: O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5: Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
6: They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7: Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9: And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
10: Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
11: Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

What does it mean in Ezekiel 13 verse 5 when when God condemns the false prophets for not "going into the gaps"?: Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.? All we have to do to find out is look at what the true prophets would tell God's people. These who would call the people BACK to a keeping of the true Sabbath and those who would heed their call would be called they who "build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in" -or in other words they stand to fill the gap that had been made in the wall (the wall, the commandments, the "paths to dwell in" -Psalm 119:35). And the true prophets would rebuke God's people who claim they are His children while they forsake God's law and His Sabbath. Read:

Isaiah 58:
1: Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
2: Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
3: Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
4: Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
5: Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
6: Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7: Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8: Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
9: Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
10: And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
11: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
12: And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
13: If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

We shall find out who this False Prophet is (Apostate Protestantism), in league with the beast. We shall discover who it is that joins hands with the beast in proclaiming this false message. And not only that but we shall also discover who the beast himself is! Rv:20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The prophecies of Ezekiel will be fulfilled in our day. Just as Daniel the prophet and John the prophet of Revelation did not know what they were actually prophesying about, neither did Ezekiel in some cases. In Ezekiel chapter 8 the prophet is taken up by the Spirit of the Lord and shown the "hole in the wall" (verse 7). This would be the "gap" or "breach"... where the Sabbath had been removed, of course, and what does he see in place of the Sabbath? See Ezekiel 8 verse 16. "And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east." SUN WORSHIP had taken the place of the true Sabbath.

The Sun-Day Sabbath came from paganism, sun worship, "worshipping the sun towards the east".

The "Mark" or Seal of God:

EZEKIEL 9
1: He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
2: And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
3: And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4: And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5: And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.


COMPARE:
Rv:7:1-3:
1: And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rv:9:4: And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


Claudia

[prophecynut]

Claudia, burn all those Ellen White books and never look back.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:

Rv:9:4: And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Claudia Christians are sealed in the heart with the Holy Spirit, saints in the OT and the Tribulation are sealed in their forehead. Which one do you want?

[Claudia_T]

Just think of this whole thing when God destroys those who have the Mark of the Beast... as a repeat, of sorts... of the time in the Old Testament when there was the Passover... God had the destroying Angel "pass over" those believers who had the blood on their door posts. Like, "the Mark" or "The Seal" of God. Well in New Testament times it will be the Commandments. Look at Deuteronomy 6 verse 9:


DEUTERONOMY 6:
1: Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3: Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6: And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8: And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9: And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


EZEKIEL 9
1: He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
2: And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
3: And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4: And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5: And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.


COMPARE:
Rv:7:1-3:
1: And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rv:9:4: And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

It has always been actually, that God wanted His people to both have faith AND keep the commandments. It is the sign that you are God's Children, along with the Sabbath in particular, a sign that you worship the true God, He who "created the heavens and the earth" Revelation 14:11,12: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

[prophecynut]

OK with me if you want the seal on your forehead, so be it!

Burn those books, burn those books, rah, rah, rah!

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hillclimber:

I believe the Body of Christ will be gone before the mark is inflicted. Once the Body is gone all manner of evil will florish, and the Mark will probably be thought to be, and will be an answer to all kinds of problems. As I've said elsewhere, America's destruction will be the pretext for establishing an economic system based on the mark. Immediately after the fall of America the mark will be implemented as prophesied in Rev. 14:8-9. The spiritually dead saints who die in the Lord from this point on will be blessed with eternal life (v.13). If they had been spiritually alive in Christ before America's fall they would of not been "left behind" to endure the Tribulation.

God through out the ages has been restraining lawlessness; before the Antichrist is revealed the Restrainer "will be taken out of the way" and "all manner of evil will flourish." The world will become "as it was in the days of Noah," with "people eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" up to the day of the Second Coming. </font>[/QUOTE]You've confused me. What is a spiritually dead saint?
I believe that with the removal (rapture) of the Body, the United States rapidly begins its downward spiral.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
You've confused me. What is a spiritually dead saint?In Mt. 8:22; Lk. 9:60 Jesus told his disciples to "let the dead bury their own dead." Physically dead people cannot bury dead people, what he meant is let the spiritually dead bury their own physically and spiritually dead relatives, they had more important things to do in following Jesus.

John was saying the same thing about those left behind when the mark is implemented, "Blessed are the (spiritually) dead who (physically) die in the Lord."


I believe that with the removal (rapture) of the Body, the United States rapidly begins its downward spiral. How rapid is "rapidly," I say 1 hour, Rev. 18:9c; Isa. 47:9.

[C4K]

I conten that the US is wll into her "downward spiral."

Sodomy is legal. 1.6 million innocent children were legally killed last year. Pornography is one of the biggest businesses in the country.

Sounds pretty downhill to me.

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by C4K:
I conten that the US is wll into her "downward spiral."

Sodomy is legal. 1.6 million innocent children were legally killed last year. Pornography is one of the biggest businesses in the country.

Sounds pretty downhill to me. I agree with your assessment but it pales in comparison with her fall after the restraining element of Christianity is removed. The financial upheaval alone will be devastating to the world, not to mention the results of unrestrained sin being loosed.

[KenH]

I don't believe that God will simply leave His creation to get as out of control as some you appear to think.

Which is another knock on the false teaching of the "rapture" in premillennialism.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
the restraining element of Christianity is removed. Are you saying the restrainer of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2:7 is the Church, if so who restrained lawlessness before the Church began?

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hillclimber:
the restraining element of Christianity is removed. Are you saying the restrainer of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2:7 is the Church, if so who restrained lawlessness before the Church began? </font>[/QUOTE]No, that's the Holy Spirit. I merely meant to state that we, the Body Church, have a restraining affect on runaway sin today. See how many unjust and ungodly laws we fight against continually. When we are removed, our relatively Godly influence will be removed allowing evil to prevail, for a while. Amidst terrible financial ruin.

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by KenH:
I don't believe that God will simply leave His creation to get as out of control as some you appear to think.

Which is another knock on the false teaching of the "rapture" in premillennialism. Knock all you want KenH, you're good at it.

[KenH]

Just as premillennialists are good at knocking competing eschtalogical viewpoints. smile.gif We're all good at tearing down the opposition. As Lyndon B. Johnson said, "Any jackass can kick down a barn but it takes a good carpenter to build one."

[hillclimber]

I'm a pretribulationist, born again, Bible believing, Berean, Christian truck driver who is baptism and sign gift challenged.

[Marcia]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
I'm a pretribulationist, born again, Bible believing, Berean, Christian truck driver who is baptism and sign gift challenged. Sign gift challenged? graemlins/laugh.gif

[I Am Blessed 23]

Originally posted by yeshua4me2
now is the only time in history in which a "mark for buying and selling" is logistically possible True, but God knew it was coming. This latest development is paving the way. Sin never jumps on us all at one time. It sneaks up, just like the mark of the beast is doing.

Originally posted by tamborine lady
So are you saying that nobody will know who the anti-Christ is until after the rapture? In my opinion, the anti-Christ will not be revealed until the rapture takes place. Since I am pre-trib, I won't know who the anti-Christ is, nor will I have the option of taking the mark of the beast (two different subjects here).

Rev. 13-17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

[C4K]

Originally posted by yeshua4me2:


of course now is the only time in history in which a "mark for buying and selling" is logicsticly possible", Does that mean that Jesus could not have come back until now? Was His return not imminent in 1850?

[prophecynut]

Paul wrote his two letters to the Thessalonians, they were believers in Christ just as we are today, what is pertinent to the church in their time is also pertinent to us today.

The revealing of the Antichrist only appears in Scripture applicable to the church, it is not mentioned in the OT, Gospels or Revelation, it occurs during the dispensation of grace that began at Pentecost and ends with the rapture.

The "abomination" is mentioned in the OT, Gospels and Revelation, therefore does not occur or apply to the church as doesthe Antichrist's revealing.

2 Thess. 2 states our gathering to him will not come until "the man of lawlessness is revealed,"
he has to be revealed before we are raptured. His revealing and the completion of the third temple
before the rapture nullifies the imminency of it.

Scripture supports a pre-trib rapture but not before the Antichrist is revealed before the day of the Lord. Our rapture must occur before the day of the Lord begins but after he is revealed. The rapture is somewhere in between his revealing and that day. The rapture must occur immediately before that day of destruction in order for it to come "suddenly" and unexpectedly (Lk. 21:34) "like a thief in the night" (1 Thess. 5:2-3).

[I Am Blessed 23]

You forgot to say, "in my opinion". :D

[billwald]

I suspect there were several pre trib people who were stuffed in Hitler's ovens. Anyone think they suffered less than those whom you think will go through the tribulation?

[Marcia]

Originally posted by billwald:
I suspect there were several pre trib people who were stuffed in Hitler's ovens. Anyone think they suffered less than those whom you think will go through the tribulation? I don't think it's a question of suffering so much as an issue of widespread sin, false teachings, and lack of any restraint on it. Lawlessness will reign throughout the world. That we have not seen yet.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

I am Blessed 16 said:

In my opinion, the anti-Christ will not be revealed until the rapture takes place. Since I am pre-trib, I won't know who the anti-Christ is, nor will I have the option of taking the mark of the beast (two different subjects here).

----------------------------------

Scripture says: 2 Thes 2-3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Doesn't "that day" refer to the rapture?? And doesn't the "man of sin" refer to the anti-christ?

Isn't this scripture saying that we will know who the anti-christ is before the rapture happens??
:rolleyes: :confused:

Peace,

Tam

[I Am Blessed 23]

In my opinion, that verse is referring to "the day of Christ", which I am given to understand is not the rapture, but rather Christ’s coming to judgment day.

It is most certain that the Lord Jesus Christ will come to judge the world, that he will come in all the pomp and power of the upper world in the last day, to execute judgment upon all.

We may well be here to see the beast, but that is not the anti-Christ. The beast is his forerunner...

I am open to any misconceptions I may have about this great event.

§ue

[music4Him]

Is the anti-christ the old slooth foot himself?

[I Am Blessed 23]

He will be a literal person, more than likely, a renowned world leader.

Remember, for the first three years, he will appear to be bringing peace to the world.

[music4Him]

Well if we're are pre-trib why is this warning of what to look for in the bible? ie.... when we ain't gonna be here because when the going gets tough we get raptured?

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
"the day of Christ", which I am given to understand is not the rapture, but rather Christ’s coming to judgment day.

We may well be here to see the beast, but that is not the anti-Christ. The beast is his forerunner...
Misconceptions? Big time.

[I Am Blessed 23]

Unsaved people read the Bible too and not everyone believes in pretrib...

[I Am Blessed 23]

"Misconceptions? Big time."

Would you care to point them out and share scripture please?

[C4K]

Some eschatologists leave no room for varying views of prophecy Sue. The way that have decided it will be it WILL be in their minds.

I am still convinced that we are ALL due for some surprises along the way.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

I can agree with you on that C4K. A lot of people will be surprised as we go along. Including me, because I'm sure I don't have everything mapped out exactly right, but neither does anyone else, so I am not alone!!

smile.gif :D graemlins/wavey.gif

Peace,

Tam

[Johnv]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
The technology exists today, and never before, to mark every human being on earth with this clever electronic device.That's what they said about the barcode, the atm card, the charge-a-plate, coupons, and health club membership badges. Sorry, I gave up speculating on the second coming long ago, and reverted back to preaching the first coming.

[music4Him]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Well if we're are pre-trib why is this warning of what to look for in the bible? ie.... when we ain't gonna be here because when the going gets tough we get raptured? Warning 1:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Warning 2:
Matthew 24:4-31
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Out of those warnings.........If we won't be here (If there's a pre trib) why the warning. In Matt. 24:24 it says that eventhe very elect will be decived......well? Sounds like some are gonna be going through it?

[C4K]

As a pre-tribber I believe that those mentioned will be folks saved after the rapture.

[music4Him]

And here I thought that after the rapture that was it.......................
Isn't the rapture when the last trump shall sound?
Then the Judgement?

[KenH]

You are correct, music4Him.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by C4K:
As a pre-tribber I believe that those mentioned will be folks saved after the rapture. Correct, they will be the Tribulation saints who come out of the "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14).

As usual, there is confusion as to the "last trumpet."

The last or 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15) is sounded by an angel to announce Christ's reign and the time for judging the dead and rewarding the OT saints (v.18) which is the first resurrection of only the righteous dead at the Second Coming (20:11). No living saints are translated at this time, they are all dead. The Rapture will have those dead in Christ and alive in Christ translated at the same time.

For the Rapture the Lord will give a "loud command" like the sound of a trumpet resurrecting "those who have fallen asleep" in Christ at the first trumpet (1 Thess. 4:16). "Those who are still alive" will be changed along with those just resurrected at the second or "last trumpet" call of God (1 Cor. 15:51-52).

There will be two trumpets for the Rapture, the first to resurrect and the second or last to change our bodies.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

PN said "There will be two trumpets for the Rapture,"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

graemlins/laugh.gif :rolleyes: :D

I'll say one thing for this board!! Sometimes the answers are really FUNNY

Have a great day!!

Tamborine Lady

[billwald]

Pretrib concept has no pragmatic use at all. It is as practical as worrying about the sun going nova in 5 million years.

[webdog]

Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yeshua4me2:


of course now is the only time in history in which a "mark for buying and selling" is logicsticly possible", Does that mean that Jesus could not have come back until now? Was His return not imminent in 1850? </font>[/QUOTE]If were still here now, then no it was impossible for it to have been 1850 :D

I believe Bible prophecy has to be fulfilled. It wasn't until 1948 that Irael was reborn (Is. 66:8). The last 50 years or so Daniel 12:4 has come to fruition. Same with Zechariah 14:12. 1998 satelite tv was introduced, enabling Revelation 16:18 to be fulfilled. I believe we are the generation that will be called up into the clouds!

[KenH]

Originally posted by webdog:
I believe we are the generation that will be called up into the clouds! Could be that this present heavens and earth will be brought to a close in our lifetimes. Or the last day of this earth could be way, way off in the future.

We must prepare and plan as though God will not end this earth during our lifetimes while being ready for the end of this earth at any time.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by webdog:

I believe Bible prophecy has to be fulfilled. It wasn't until 1948 that Irael was reborn (Is. 66:8). The last 50 years or so Daniel 12:4 has come to fruition. Same with Zechariah 14:12. 1998 satelite tv was introduced, enabling Revelation 16:18 to be fulfilled. I believe we are the generation that will be called up into the clouds! Israel becoming a nation was effective Nov. 29, 1947 when the United Nations and Israeli representatives signed on the dotted line of the resolution establishing Israel. The effective date is when the agreement is signed not somewhere down the line when it physically becomes a reality.

The rebirth or restoration of Israel according to the many OT prophecies like Isa. 66:8 will not be fulfilled until after the Second Coming: "For as soon as Zion travailed (Jacob's trouble), she brought forth her children (the "elect" brought back to the Land at the Second Coming, Mt. 24:31).
When Christ returns God "will extend peace to her like a river" (v.12), this will be fulfilled during the Millennium, not now. During the Millennium God will "gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory," not now (v.18). "All mankind will come and bow down before me," not now (v.23). Scriptures that speak of the current ingathering of Jews are: Zep. 2:1-2; Eze. 22:17-22, 38:8, 39:27.

Fulfillment of Dn. 12:4 is not now, during the Tribulation "many shall run to and fro" to increase knowledge of the prophecies sealed in the scroll when fulfilled during the "time of the end" or the "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). The length of this time is a "time, times, and a half" or 3.5 years of the second half of the 70th week (Dn. 12:7).

All of Zec. 14 is fulfilled during the "day of the LORD" verse 1, and not now.

[C4K]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yeshua4me2:


of course now is the only time in history in which a "mark for buying and selling" is logicsticly possible", Does that mean that Jesus could not have come back until now? Was His return not imminent in 1850? </font>[/QUOTE]If were still here now, then no it was impossible for it to have been 1850 :D

I believe Bible prophecy has to be fulfilled. It wasn't until 1948 that Irael was reborn (Is. 66:8). The last 50 years or so Daniel 12:4 has come to fruition. Same with Zechariah 14:12. 1998 satelite tv was introduced, enabling Revelation 16:18 to be fulfilled. I believe we are the generation that will be called up into the clouds! </font>[/QUOTE]I have a difficult time with this line of thought. What you are saying is that no believer before 1948 could expect the return of the Lord to be imminent? Even Hohn wrote, "Even so, come Lord Jesus" and [St] Patrick wrote in Confessio that he was expecting "the soon advent of our Lord." It may very well be that 200 years from now some believer may be saying, "It was not until the second regathering of Isreal in 2150 that the second coming was possible, and not until the invention of the ____________ that it was technologically possible."

[prophecynut]

Computer is the answer

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Computer is the answer So you are saying that all the Christians who beleived in the imminent return of Christ before the computer we deceived and believing in vain?

[prophecynut]

Not deceived, rather they received incorrect teachings from the prophecy experts concerning imminency.

The understanding of prophecy is progressive, back then the computer was not available, now we know how the Antichrist will use this technology to track everybody.

Mistaken as to imminency of the Rapture or lacking in knowledge has no bearing on our faith in Christ.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Not deceived, rather they received incorrect teachings from the prophecy experts concerning imminency.You mean, that hasn't happenned since? I think the past rantings of quacks like Hal Lindsey and the 80's era "Jesus is coming soon" freaks, aka, Jesus movement, is testament that everyone, before 1948 and after, have gotten it wrong so far.

Sorry, we're all going to die of natural causes, not of raptural causes. Yes, I'm prepared should Jesus come tomorrow. But, are YOU prepared if Jesus never came in your lifetime? You'd be surprised how man aren't.

[C4K]

I am a pre-trib, pre-mill rapturist, but am disturbed at the newspaper prophecy of today. I once read a book which I wish I could find. It was written by a pre-trib, pre-mil rapturist in the 19th century who wrote a novel about the rapture. He had it all figured out, all of the prophecies determined etc. At the end he said that only then was everything in place for the return of Christ.

Will people look back at us 100 years from now and laugh at our silly errors and conjecture taken as fact?

When John wrote "Even so come Lord Jesus" was he looking in vain? He didn't know that the computer had to be invented first?

This kind of speculation makes me want to change my eschatology ;) .

[prophecynut]

I don't know when the teachings of an imminent Rapture began, apparently many years before I came on the scene. Soon after I began studying prophecy I realized imminency was erroneous and the rapture had to be mid-week, pre-trib.

Hal Lindsey is no quack, just because he gave a possible timing scenario for the Second Coming doesn't qualify him as a heretic or false teacher. What about Edgar C. Whisenant or Harold Camping, hard to tell?

According to an OT prophecy, those in the body of Christ today will not all taste death before His appearing. Even if the Rapture was 70 years from now there would be Christians alive at His appearing.

When you say "we're all going to die of natural causes," I'm assuming you mean our generation that began around 1948, if so, you will be the one surprised. Not all of our generation will pass away before the Second Coming, many will have died before it, but not all.

Everyone in Christ is prepared regardless of who they are or what generation they live in, this generation unlike others needs to get ready for the Day of His appearing.

[webdog]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by prophecynut:
Not deceived, rather they received incorrect teachings from the prophecy experts concerning imminency.You mean, that hasn't happenned since? I think the past rantings of quacks like Hal Lindsey and the 80's era "Jesus is coming soon" freaks, aka, Jesus movement, is testament that everyone, before 1948 and after, have gotten it wrong so far.

Sorry, we're all going to die of natural causes, not of raptural causes. Yes, I'm prepared should Jesus come tomorrow. But, are YOU prepared if Jesus never came in your lifetime? You'd be surprised how man aren't. </font>[/QUOTE]This post sounds like something the scoffers out of 2 Peter 3 would say! Your claim that we are all going to die of natural causes is false doctrine.

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:

Everyone in Christ is prepared regardless of who they are or what generation they live in, this generation unlike others needs to get ready for the Day of His appearing. So no other generation until now needed to be ready for the rapture?

[prophecynut]

Correct, "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Lk.1:17). "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Heb. 10:25).

[prophecynut]

Webdog, you would make a good police dog graemlins/laugh.gif

[C4K]

Amazing theology.

"Even so, come Lord Jesus (but I know you can't come back till the computer is invented)"

[prophecynut]

Jesus cannot come back till the 7 year covenant is confirmed, the third temple is built and the Antichrist is reavealed.

[C4K]

Does this come from the same prophecy that says that Russia is a nation north of the United States?

[prophecynut]

No, from comparing various scriptures.

[C4K]

I continue to look up daily for my Lord to return. If He does not come in my lifetime, so be it. It will have nothing to do with my faith. Should Israel be invaded and dispersed, my view of scripture will not be affected.

"Even so, come Lord Jesus!"

[prophecynut]

Daniel's 70th week begins with the 7 year covenant and peace.

Daniel says nothing of what transpires during the first 3.5 years.

At mid point Antichrist assumes power in the second half for 3.5 years(Rev. 13:5).

Before he begins to reign in the day of the Lord he is revealed prior to it during the Church Age (2 Thess. 2:3).

The third temple must be completed before he can be revealed.

The 7 year covenant must be in place before Jews can built the temple.

The day of the Lord when Antichrist rules must come "unexpectedly," "suddenly," like a "trap" or like a thief in the night.

For the destruction of that day to come unexpectedly it must immediately follow the rapture. A rapture at the beginning of the 7 years would nullify the suddenness of that day coming at mid point.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by webdog:
Your claim that we are all going to die of natural causes is false doctrine. You're right. I should have said "You and I are almost certainly going to die from natural causes."

I failed to make exceptions for unfortunate accidents or premature ailments.

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Daniel's 70th week begins with the 7 year covenant and peace.

Daniel says nothing of what transpires during the first 3.5 years.

At mid point Antichrist assumes power in the second half for 3.5 years(Rev. 13:5).

Before he begins to reign in the day of the Lord he is revealed prior to it during the Church Age (2 Thess. 2:3).

The third temple must be completed before he can be revealed.

The 7 year covenant must be in place before Jews can built the temple.

The day of the Lord when Antichrist rules must come "unexpectedly," "suddenly," like a "trap" or like a thief in the night.

For the destruction of that day to come unexpectedly it must immediately follow the rapture. A rapture at the beginning of the 7 years would nullify the suddenness of that day coming at mid point. Your opinions are as valid as anyone's when it comes to this topic.

[Sonjeo]

I have a real problem with the chip. For one thing it has the potential to track you everywhere you go. Oh yea, well that's right we are already supposed to be acclimmated to that right? Acclimmated on this shifting baseline of what used to be objectionable with regard to freedom and independence. Hey you used to be able to live with not tracking your child or dog whereever they were. You don't need it but you have been conditioned to think you do and oh have they used the guilt trip on you with regard to your child's and loved ones safety. The founding fathers did not put checks and balances in our system to cure a present tyranny but to protect us from a future dark regime. For the sake of your childrens children do you think it is wise to welcome in so much invasion of privacy and surveillence in the name of peace, safety and security when it is very possible that a dark regime could arise, as Hitler did, before the actual climax of the end times. I believe we are in the end times but it could be a hundred years yet( don't get comfortable because Jesus can come for you anytime and then for you it is the endtimes, so think again smile.gif ) and repressive governments can rise lest we think we are as invulnerable as the Germans did. Get it? People say well hey when it gets really bad I'm gone in the rapture but your or your childrens future is not as scripted as you may think. In other words there may be some real bumps, ie Hitlers, out there on the way to the real A.C. so we need to sober up and be diligent about what we are allowing to be established relative to invasive surveillence systems. Do you remember we were supposed to be alarmed by something in the book "Future Shock". Do we remember what? Exactly the threat of some of this kind of technology. And yes the baseline has shifted because we think we have it so under control. There is a movie out called SIX. If you think chips and cameras everywhere are cool and protective you need to see this movie. If not at the store it is at some libraries for free. We are all getting much too cozy with A.C.'s high tech surveillence network. We are even setting it up for him or for some other beforehand tyrant. Don't just think of yourself going in the rapture in the future, think of your children in a possible hyper-controlled immediate future. Let God show you where you should resist carnal fear and where you should use His courage. May His wisdom guide us.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Sonjeo:
I have a real problem with the chip. For one thing it has the potential to track you everywhere you go.
How so? There are products that have RF devices in them, and, unless you think that "Alias" is a documentary, we do not have the ability to track those products.
The founding fathers did not put checks and balances in our system to cure a present tyranny but to protect us from a future dark regime.
True, but that's a complete and separate topic from the issue at hand.
I believe we are in the end times but it could be a hundred years yetOr a thousand, or ten thousand, or a million. We can be certain of one thing. We are 2000 years closer to Christ's return than when he was born. Everything else is shees speculation.

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by C4K:
I continue to look up daily for my Lord to return. If He does not come in my lifetime, so be it. It will have nothing to do with my faith. Should Israel be invaded and dispersed, my view of scripture will not be affected.

"Even so, come Lord Jesus!" Amen.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by C4K:
If He does not come in my lifetime, so be it. By the looks of your avatar you are in good health and are young enough to be alive at his return, unless your life ends prematurely by accident.

[Johnv]

Look to me like he's young enough to live another 50 or 60 years before dying a natural death, and I hope that God blesses him with such a long life.

Sorry, prophecynut, but there is no scriptural support to suggest that Christ will be coming in our lifetimes. BTW, you are saving for your retirement, aren't you?

[Sonjeo]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sonjeo:
I have a real problem with the chip. For one thing it has the potential to track you everywhere you go.
How so? There are products that have RF devices in them, and, unless you think that "Alias" is a documentary, we do not have the ability to track those products.

That is odd because the reason some put them in children and pets is in order to locate them. When we start accepting chips inside us or under our skin how long will it be before we accept more elaborate location devices within our person.

The founding fathers did not put checks and balances in our system to cure a present tyranny but to protect us from a future dark regime.True, but that's a complete and separate topic from the issue at hand.

Not at all since the topic involves the anti-christ which I would call a dark regime. The point is it seems we do not appreciate the repressive potential of this technology but I believe the founding fathers would have and would not allow the establishment of such a surveillence network or total information agency. Yes that didn't happen but it would have, would it not, if good men would have remained so accepting. It is also relevent because this involves courage such as the founders who instead of giving their rights up for their lives they did just the opposite. We need more of their inner constitution and God's courage and less of our scrambling in fear. Now, all through history men have been able to hide from tyrants but we for the first time are making it possible that no one can hide. Oh I know, they are telling you that it will be great that no criminal can ever hide again. Are you listening?

I believe we are in the end times but it could be a hundred years yetOr a thousand, or ten thousand, or a million. We can be certain of one thing. We are 2000 years closer to Christ's return than when he was born. Everything else is shees speculation. </font>[/QUOTE]I believe certain signs put the end close but I think there is flexiblity of a hundred years or so, imho.

[ August 18, 2005, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Sonjeo ]

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Johnv:

Sorry, prophecynut, but there is no scriptural support to suggest that Christ will be coming in our lifetimes. BTW, you are saving for your retirement, aren't you? Yes there is, one of the OT minor prophets has it.

Not a penny towards retirement in a few years, don't need it.

[Claudia_T]

What you all are overlooking in the 2 Thessalonians declaration made by the Apostle Paul, is that he said "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." Things that you all are thinking are GOING to happen have in reality ALREADY HAPPENED and are an ongoing developing thing.
Let me explain again.


The apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result in the establishment of the papal power. He declared that the day of Christ should not come, "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." And furthermore, the apostle warns his brethren that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4, 7. Even at that early date he saw, creeping into the church, errors that would prepare the way for the development of the papacy.

Little by little, at first in stealth and silence, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of the minds of men, "the mystery of iniquity" carried forward its deceptive and blasphemous work. Almost imperceptibly the customs of heathenism found their way into the Christian church. The spirit of compromise and conformity was restrained for a time by the fierce persecutions which the church endured under paganism. But as persecution ceased, and Christianity entered the courts and palaces of kings, she laid aside the humble simplicity of Christ and His apostles for the pomp and pride of pagan priests and rulers; and in place of the requirements of God, she substituted human theories and traditions. The nominal conversion of Constantine, in the early part of the fourth century, caused great rejoicing; and the world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ.

This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. That gigantic system of false religion is a masterpiece of Satan's power--a monument of his efforts to seat himself upon the throne to rule the earth according to his will.

It is one of the leading doctrines of Romanism that the pope is the visible head of the universal church of Christ, invested with supreme authority over bishops and pastors in all parts of the world. More than this, the pope has been given the very titles of Deity. He has been styled "Lord God the Pope", and has been declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men.

Romanists have persisted in bringing against Protestants the charge of heresy and willful separation from the true church. But these accusations apply rather to themselves. They are the ones who laid down the banner of Christ and departed from "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3.

In order for Satan to maintain his sway over men, and establish the authority of the papal usurper, he must keep them in ignorance of the Scriptures. The Bible would exalt God and place finite men in their true position; therefore its sacred truths must be concealed and suppressed. This logic was adopted by the Roman Church. For hundreds of years the circulation of the Bible was prohibited. The people were forbidden to read it or to have it in their houses, and unprincipled priests and prelates interpreted its teachings to sustain their pretensions. Thus the pope came to be almost universally acknowledged as the vicegerent of God on earth, endowed with authority over church and state.


The detector of error having been removed, Satan worked according to his will. Prophecy had declared that the papacy was to "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25. This work it was not slow to attempt. To afford converts from heathenism a substitute for the worship of idols, and thus to promote their nominal acceptance of Christianity, the adoration of images and relics was gradually introduced into the Christian worship. The decree of a general council finally established this system of idolatry. To complete the sacrilegious work, Rome presumed to expunge from the law of God the second commandment, forbidding image worship, and to divide the tenth commandment, in order to preserve the number.

The spirit of concession to paganism opened the way for a still further disregard of Heaven's authority. Satan, working through unconsecrated leaders of the church, tampered with the fourth commandment also, and essayed to set aside the ancient Sabbath, the day which God had blessed and sanctified (Genesis 2:2, 3), and in its stead to exalt the festival observed by the heathen as "the venerable day of the sun." This change was not at first attempted openly. In the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians. They were jealous for the honor of God, and, believing that His law is immutable, they zealously guarded the sacredness of its precepts. But with great subtlety Satan worked through his agents to bring about his object. That the attention of the people might be called to the Sunday, it was made a festival in honor of the resurrection of Christ. Religious services were held upon it; yet it was regarded as a day of recreation, the Sabbath being still sacredly observed.

To prepare the way for the work which he designed to accomplish, Satan had led the Jews, before the advent of Christ, to load down the Sabbath with the most rigorous exactions, making its observance a burden. Now, taking advantage of the false light in which he had thus caused it to be regarded, he cast contempt upon it as a Jewish institution. While Christians generally continued to observe the Sunday as a joyous festival, he led them, in order to show their hatred of Judaism, to make the Sabbath a fast, a day of sadness and gloom.

In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church. But while many God-fearing Christians were gradually led to regard Sunday as possessing a degree of sacredness, they still held the true Sabbath as the holy of the Lord and observed it in obedience to the fourth commandment.

The archdeceiver had not completed his work. He was resolved to gather the Christian world under his banner and to exercise his power through his vicegerent, the proud pontiff who claimed to be the representative of Christ. Through half-converted pagans, ambitious prelates, and world-loving churchmen he accomplished his purpose. Vast councils were held from time to time, in which the dignitaries of the church were convened from all the world. In nearly every council the Sabbath which God had instituted was pressed down a little lower, while the Sunday was correspondingly exalted. Thus the pagan festival came finally to be honored as a divine institution, while the Bible Sabbath was pronounced a relic of Judaism, and its observers were declared to be accursed.

The great apostate had succeeded in exalting himself "above all that is called God, or that is worshiped." 2 Thessalonians 2:4. He had dared to change the only precept of the divine law that unmistakably points all mankind to the true and living God. In the fourth commandment, God is revealed as the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and is thereby distinguished from all false gods. It was as a memorial of the work of creation that the seventh day was sanctified as a rest day for man. It was designed to keep the living God ever before the minds of men as the source of being and the object of reverence and worship. Satan strives to turn men from their allegiance to God, and from rendering obedience to His law; therefore he directs his efforts especially against that commandment which points to God as the Creator.

This is where you need to read and re-read the passage about the MARK OF THE BEAST. Note that it starts out with the Three Angels warning that "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." The angel just quoted right out of the 4th commandment, which is the SABBATH commandment, the very one the Papacy changed. "He will seek to change times and laws" he would "sit in the temple as God"...

Then note that the Three Angel's messages finishes up with pointing out the characteristic of GODS PEOPLE in contrast to they who will have the Mark of the beast... that being: "here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

God TELLS US right there what the Mark of the Beast is all about. This computer chip theory is just that- a man made theory...

[Claudia_T]

The Bible says there will be MANY antichrists. 1Jn:2:18: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." Antichrist means in the place of Christ. Jesus warned many would come in His name pretending to BE Him. Matt. 24:23-27

Many have been doing the work of Antichrist, as messengers for him.

But then there will also be THE ANTICHRIST, who is SATAN HIMSELF who will be posing as Christ, just as he did in the wilderness when Jesus was fasting in the desert and being tempted in the desert, Satan dressed as an angel and tempted Him.

Here you can read part of what will happen... during the time of trouble... when THE ANTICHRIST will come....


THE TIME OF TROUBLE

"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1.

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and

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blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.

Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who

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have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution.
When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God.

As the Sabbath has become the special point of controversy throughout Christendom, and religious and secular authorities have combined to enforce the observance of the Sunday, the persistent refusal of a small minority to yield to the popular demand will make them objects of universal execration. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to an institution of the church and a law of the state ought not to be tolerated; that it is better for them to suffer than for whole nations to be thrown into confusion and lawlessness. The same argument eighteen hundred years ago was brought against Christ by the "rulers of the people." "It is expedient for us," said the wily Caiaphas, "that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." John 11:50. This argument will appear conclusive; and a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment and giving

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the people liberty, after a certain time, to put them to death. Romanism in the Old World and apostate Protestantism in the New will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts.
The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress described by the prophet as the time of Jacob's trouble. "Thus saith the Lord: We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. . . . All faces are turned into paleness. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 30:5-7.

Jacob's night of anguish, when he wrestled in prayer for deliverance from the hand of Esau (Genesis 32:24-30), represents the experience of God's people in the time of trouble. Because of the deception practiced to secure his father's blessing, intended for Esau, Jacob had fled for his life, alarmed by his brother's deadly threats. After remaining for many years an exile, he had set out, at God's command, to return with his wives and children, his flocks and herds, to his native country. On reaching the borders of the land, he was filled with terror by the tidings of Esau's approach at the head of a band of warriors, doubtless bent upon revenge. Jacob's company, unarmed and defenseless, seemed about to fall helpless victims of violence and slaughter. And to the burden of anxiety and fear was added the crushing weight of self-reproach, for it was his own sin that had brought this danger. His only hope was in the mercy of God; his only defense must be prayer. Yet he leaves nothing undone on his own part to atone for the wrong to his brother and to avert the threatened danger. So should the followers of Christ, as they approach the time of trouble, make every exertion to place themselves in a proper light before the people, to disarm prejudice, and to avert the danger which threatens liberty of conscience.

Having sent his family away, that they may not witness his distress, Jacob remains alone to intercede with God. He

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confesses his sin and gratefully acknowledges the mercy of God toward him while with deep humiliation he pleads the covenant made with his fathers and the promises to himself in the night vision at Bethel and in the land of his exile. The crisis in his life has come; everything is at stake. In the darkness and solitude he continues praying and humbling himself before God. Suddenly a hand is laid upon his shoulder. He thinks that an enemy is seeking his life, and with all the energy of despair he wrestles with his assailant. As the day begins to break, the stranger puts forth his superhuman power; at his touch the strong man seems paralyzed, and he falls, a helpless, weeping suppliant, upon the neck of his mysterious antagonist. Jacob knows now that it is the Angel of the covenant with whom he has been in conflict. Though disabled and suffering the keenest pain, he does not relinquish his purpose. Long has he endured perplexity, remorse, and trouble for his sin; now he must have the assurance that it is pardoned. The divine visitant seems about to depart; but Jacob clings to Him, pleading for a blessing. The Angel urges, "Let Me go, for the day breaketh;" but the patriarch exclaims, "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me." What confidence, what firmness and perseverance, are here displayed! Had this been a boastful, presumptuous claim, Jacob would have been instantly destroyed; but his was the assurance of one who confesses his weakness and unworthiness, yet trusts the mercy of a covenant-keeping God.
"He had power over the Angel, and prevailed." Hosea 12:4. Through humiliation, repentance, and self-surrender, this sinful, erring mortal prevailed with the Majesty of heaven. He had fastened his trembling grasp upon the promises of God, and the heart of Infinite Love could not turn away the sinner's plea. As an evidence of his triumph and an encouragement to others to imitate his example, his name was changed from one which was a reminder of his sin, to one that commemorated his victory. And the fact that Jacob

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had prevailed with God was an assurance that he would prevail with men. He no longer feared to encounter his brother's anger, for the Lord was his defense.
Satan had accused Jacob before the angels of God, claiming the right to destroy him because of his sin; he had moved upon Esau to march against him; and during the patriarch's long night of wrestling, Satan endeavored to force upon him a sense of his guilt in order to discourage him and break his hold upon God. Jacob was driven almost to despair; but he knew that without help from heaven he must perish. He had sincerely repented of his great sin, and he appealed to the mercy of God. He would not be turned from his purpose, but held fast the Angel and urged his petition with earnest, agonizing cries until he prevailed.

As Satan influenced Esau to march against Jacob, so he will stir up the wicked to destroy God's people in the time of trouble. And as he accused Jacob, he will urge his accusations against the people of God. He numbers the world as his subjects; but the little company who keep the commandments of God are resisting his supremacy. If he could blot them from the earth, his triumph would be complete. He sees that holy angels are guarding them, and he infers that their sins have been pardoned; but he does not know that their cases have been decided in the sanctuary above. He has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these before God in the most exaggerated light, representing this people to be just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. He declares that the Lord cannot in justice forgive their sins and yet destroy him and his angels. He claims them as his prey and demands that they be given into his hands to destroy.

As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink;

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for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God.
Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached.

On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end. But while they plead with God to stay the work of rebellion, it is with a keen sense of self-reproach that they themselves have no more power to resist and urge back the mighty tide of evil. They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them.

They afflict their souls before God, pointing to their past repentance of their many sins, and pleading the Saviour's promise: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Their faith does not fail because their prayers

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are not immediately answered. Though suffering the keenest anxiety, terror, and distress, they do not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the Angel; and the language of their souls is: "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me."
Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.

Satan leads many to believe that God will overlook their unfaithfulness in the minor affairs of life; but the Lord shows in His dealings with Jacob that He will in no wise sanction or tolerate evil. All who endeavor to excuse or conceal their sins, and permit them to remain upon the books of heaven, unconfessed and unforgiven, will be overcome by Satan. The more exalted their profession and the more honorable the position which they hold, the more grievous is their course in the sight of God and the more sure the triumph of their great adversary. Those who delay a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble or at any subsequent time. The case of all such is hopeless.

Those professed Christians who come up to that last fearful conflict unprepared will, in their despair, confess their sins in words of burning anguish, while the wicked exult over their distress. These confessions are of the same character as was that of Esau or of Judas. Those who make them, lament the result of transgression, but not its guilt. They feel

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no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They acknowledge their sin, through fear of punishment; but, like Pharaoh of old, they would return to their defiance of Heaven should the judgments be removed.
Jacob's history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.

The season of distress and anguish before us will require a faith that can endure weariness, delay, and hunger--a faith that will not faint though severely tried. The period of probation is granted to all to prepare for that time. Jacob prevailed because he was persevering and determined. His victory is an evidence of the power of importunate prayer. All who will lay hold of God's promises, as he did, and be as earnest and persevering as he was, will succeed as he succeeded. Those who are unwilling to deny self, to agonize before God, to pray long and earnestly for His blessing, will not obtain it. Wrestling with God--how few know what it is! How few have ever had their souls drawn out after God with intensity of desire until every power is on the stretch. When waves of despair which no language can express sweep over the suppliant, how few cling with unyielding faith to the promises of God.

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Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement.

We should now acquaint ourselves with God by proving His promises. Angels record every prayer that is earnest and sincere. We should rather dispense with selfish gratifications than neglect communion with God. The deepest poverty, the greatest self-denial, with His approval, is better than riches, honors, ease, and friendship without it. We must take time to pray. If we allow our minds to be absorbed by worldly interests, the Lord may give us time by removing from us our idols of gold, of houses, or of fertile lands.

The young would not be seduced into sin if they would refuse to enter any path save that upon which they could ask God's blessing. If the messengers who bear the last solemn warning to the world would pray for the blessing of God, not in a cold, listless, lazy manner, but fervently and in faith, as did Jacob, they would find many places where they could say: "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. They would be accounted of heaven as princes, having power to prevail with God and with men.

The "time of trouble, such as never was," is soon to open upon us; and we shall need an experience which we do not now possess and which many are too indolent to obtain. It is often the case that trouble is greater in anticipation than in reality; but this is not true of the crisis before us. The most vivid presentation cannot reach the magnitude of the ordeal. In that time of trial, every soul must stand for himself before God. "Though Noah, Daniel, and Job" were in the land, "as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son

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nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." Ezekiel 14:20.
Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.

It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls.

The apostle John in vision heard a loud voice in heaven exclaiming: "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:12. Fearful are the scenes which call forth this exclamation from the heavenly voice. The wrath of Satan increases as his time grows short, and his work of deceit and destruction will reach its culmination in the time of trouble.

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Fearful sights of a supernatural character will soon be revealed in the heavens, in token of the power of miracle-working demons. The spirits of devils will go forth to the kings of the earth and to the whole world, to fasten them in deception, and urge them on to unite with Satan in his last struggle against the government of heaven. By these agencies, rulers and subjects will be alike deceived. Persons will arise pretending to be Christ Himself, and claiming the title and worship which belong to the world's Redeemer. They will perform wonderful miracles of healing and will profess to have revelations from heaven contradicting the testimony of the Scriptures.

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. Revelation 1:13-15. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: "Christ has come! Christ has come!" The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed. He declares that those who persist in keeping holy the seventh day are blaspheming his name by refusing to listen to his angels sent to them with light and truth. This is the strong, almost overmastering delusion. Like the Samaritans who

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were deceived by Simon Magus, the multitudes, from the least to the greatest, give heed to these sorceries, saying: This is "the great power of God." Acts 8:10.
But the people of God will not be misled. The teachings of this false christ are not in accordance with the Scriptures. His blessing is pronounced upon the worshipers of the beast and his image, the very class upon whom the Bible declares that God's unmingled wrath shall be poured out.

And, furthermore, Satan is not permitted to counterfeit the manner of Christ's advent. The Saviour has warned His people against deception upon this point, and has clearly foretold the manner of His second coming. "There shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. . . . Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth; behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:24-27, 31; 25:31; Revelation 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. This coming there is no possibility of counterfeiting. It will be universally known--witnessed by the whole world.

Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? Satan will, if possible, prevent them from obtaining a preparation to stand in that day. He will so arrange affairs as to hedge up their way, entangle them with earthly treasures, cause them to carry a heavy, wearisome burden, that

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their hearts may be overcharged with the cares of this life and the day of trial may come upon them as a thief.
As the decree issued by the various rulers of Christendom against commandment keepers shall withdraw the protection of government and abandon them to those who desire their destruction, the people of God will flee from the cities and villages and associate together in companies, dwelling in the most desolate and solitary places. Many will find refuge in the strongholds of the mountains. Like the Christians of the Piedmont valleys, they will make the high places of the earth their sanctuaries and will thank God for "the munitions of rocks." Isaiah 33:16. But many of all nations and of all classes, high and low, rich and poor, black and white, will be cast into the most unjust and cruel bondage. The beloved of God pass weary days, bound in chains, shut in by prison bars, sentenced to be slain, some apparently left to die of starvation in dark and loathsome dungeons. No human ear is open to hear their moans; no human hand is ready to lend them help.

Will the Lord forget His people in this trying hour? Did He forget faithful Noah when judgments were visited upon the antediluvian world? Did He forget Lot when the fire came down from heaven to consume the cities of the plain? Did He forget Joseph surrounded by idolaters in Egypt? Did He forget Elijah when the oath of Jezebel threatened him with the fate of the prophets of Baal? Did He forget Jeremiah in the dark and dismal pit of his prison house? Did He forget the three worthies in the fiery furnace? or Daniel in the den of lions?

"Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands." Isaiah 49:14-16. The Lord hosts has said: "He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye." Zechariah 2:8.

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Though enemies may thrust them into prison, yet dungeon walls cannot cut off the communication between their souls and Christ. One who sees their every weakness, who is acquainted with every trial, is above all earthly powers; and angels will come to them in lonely cells, bringing light and peace from heaven. The prison will be as a palace; for the rich in faith dwell there, and the gloomy walls will be lighted up with heavenly light as when Paul and Silas prayed and sang praises at midnight in the Philippian dungeon.

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy.

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those

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more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges: "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters . . . became blood." Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 16:2-6. By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of His time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit and were seeking to do the same work with these murderers of the prophets.
In the plague that follows, power is given to the sun "to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat." Verses 8, 9. The prophets thus describe the condition of the earth at this fearful time: "The land mourneth; . . . because the harvest of the field is perished. . . . All the trees of the field are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men." "The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate. . . . How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. . . . The rivers of water are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness." "The songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence." Joel 1:10-12, 17-20; Amos 8:3.

These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most

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awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy.
In that day, multitudes will desire the shelter of God's mercy which they have so long despised. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." Amos 8:11, 12.

The people of God will not be free from suffering; but while persecuted and distressed, while they endure privation and suffer for want of food they will not be left to perish. That God who cared for Elijah will not pass by one of His self-sacrificing children. He who numbers the hairs of their head will care for them, and in time of famine they shall be satisfied. While the wicked are dying from hunger and pestilence, angels will shield the righteous and supply their wants. To him that "walketh righteously" is the promise: "Bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure." "When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the Lord will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them." Isaiah 33:15, 16; 41:17.

"Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labor of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls;" yet shall they that fear Him "rejoice in the Lord" and joy in the God of their salvation. Habakkuk 3:17, 18.

"The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil:

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He shall preserve thy soul." "He shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with His fathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust: His truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling." Psalms 121:5-7; 91:3-10.
Yet to human sight it will appear that the people of God must soon seal their testimony with their blood as did the martyrs before them. They themselves begin to fear that the Lord has left them to fall by the hand of their enemies. It is a time of fearful agony. Day and night they cry unto God for deliverance. The wicked exult, and the jeering cry is heard: "Where now is your faith? Why does not God deliver you out of our hands if you are indeed His people?" But the waiting ones remember Jesus dying upon Calvary's cross and the chief priests and rulers shouting in mockery: "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him." Matthew 27:42. Like Jacob, all are wrestling with God. Their countenances express their internal struggle. Paleness sits upon every face. Yet they cease not their earnest intercession.

Could men see with heavenly vision, they would behold companies of angels that excel in strength stationed about those who have kept the word of Christ's patience. With sympathizing tenderness, angels have witnessed their distress and have heard their prayers. They are waiting the word of their Commander to snatch them from their peril. But they must wait yet a little longer. The people of God must drink

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of the cup and be baptized with the baptism. The very delay, so painful to them, is the best answer to their petitions. As they endeavor to wait trustingly for the Lord to work they are led to exercise faith, hope, and patience, which have been too little exercised during their religious experience. Yet for the elect's sake the time of trouble will be shortened. "Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him? . . . I tell you that He will avenge them speedily." Luke 18:7, 8. The end will come more quickly than men expect. The wheat will be gathered and bound in sheaves for the garner of God; the tares will be bound as fagots for the fires of destruction.
The heavenly sentinels, faithful to their trust, continue their watch. Though a general decree has fixed the time when commandment keepers may be put to death, their enemies will in some cases anticipate the decree, and before the time specified, will endeavor to take their lives. But none can pass the mighty guardians stationed about every faithful soul. Some are assailed in their flight from the cities and villages; but the swords raised against them break and fall powerless as a straw. Others are defended by angels in the form of men of war.

In all ages, God has wrought through holy angels for the succor and deliverance of His people. Celestial beings have taken an active part in the affairs of men. They have appeared clothed in garments that shone as the lightning; they have come as men in the garb of wayfarers. Angels have appeared in human form to men of God. They have rested, as if weary, under the oaks at noon. They have accepted the hospitalities of human homes. They have acted as guides to benighted travelers. They have, with their own hands, kindled the fires at the altar. They have opened prison doors and set free the servants of the Lord. Clothed with the panoply of heaven, they came to roll away the stone from the Saviour's tomb.

In the form of men, angels are often in the assemblies of

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the righteous; and they visit the assemblies of the wicked, as they went to Sodom, to make a record of their deeds, to determine whether they have passed the boundary of God's forbearance. The Lord delights in mercy; and for the sake of a few who really serve Him, He restrains calamities and prolongs the tranquillity of multitudes. Little do sinners against God realize that they are indebted for their own lives to the faithful few whom they delight to ridicule and oppress.
Though the rulers of this world know it not, yet often in their councils angels have been spokesmen. Human eyes have looked upon them; human ears have listened to their appeals; human lips have opposed their suggestions and ridiculed their counsels; human hands have met them with insult and abuse. In the council hall and the court of justice these heavenly messengers have shown an intimate acquaintance with human history; they have proved themselves better able to plead the cause of the oppressed than were their ablest and most eloquent defenders. They have defeated purposes and arrested evils that would have greatly retarded the work of God and would have caused great suffering to His people. In the hour of peril and distress "the angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear Him, and delivereth them." Psalm 34:7.

With earnest longing, God's people await the tokens of their coming King. As the watchmen are accosted, "What of the night?" the answer is given unfalteringly, "'The morning cometh, and also the night.' Isaiah 21:11, 12. Light is gleaming upon the clouds above the mountaintops. Soon there will be a revealing of His glory. The Sun of Righteousness is about to shine forth. The morning and the night are both at hand--the opening of endless day to the righteous, the settling down of eternal night to the wicked."

As the wrestling ones urge their petitions before God, the veil separating them from the unseen seems almost withdrawn. The heavens glow with the dawning of eternal day, and like the melody of angel songs the words fall upon the

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ear: "Stand fast to your allegiance. Help is coming." Christ, the almighty Victor, holds out to His weary soldiers a crown of immortal glory; and His voice comes from the gates ajar: "Lo, I am with you. Be not afraid. I am acquainted with all your sorrows; I have borne your griefs. You are not warring against untried enemies. I have fought the battle in your behalf, and in My name you are more than conquerors."
The precious Saviour will send help just when we need it. The way to heaven is consecrated by His footprints. Every thorn that wounds our feet has wounded His. Every cross that we are called to bear He has borne before us. The Lord permits conflicts, to prepare the soul for peace. The time of trouble is a fearful ordeal for God's people; but it is the time for every true believer to look up, and by faith he may see the bow of promise encircling him.

"The redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. I, even I, am He that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; and forgettest the Lord thy Maker; . . . and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor? The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail. But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of Mine hand." Isaiah 51:11-16.

"Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: Thus saith thy Lord the Lord, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of His people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of My fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: but I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said

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to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over." Verses 21-23.
The eye of God, looking down the ages, was fixed upon the crisis which His people are to meet, when earthly powers shall be arrayed against them. Like the captive exile, they will be in fear of death by starvation or by violence. But the Holy One who divided the Red Sea before Israel, will manifest His mighty power and turn their captivity. "They shall be Mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him." Malachi 3:17. If the blood of Christ's faithful witnesses were shed at this time, it would not, like the blood of the martyrs, be as seed sown to yield a harvest for God. Their fidelity would not be a testimony to convince others of the truth; for the obdurate heart has beaten back the waves of mercy until they return no more. If the righteous were now left to fall a prey to their enemies, it would be a triumph for the prince of darkness. Says the psalmist: "In the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me." Psalm 27:5. Christ has spoken: "Come, My people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." Isaiah 26:20, 21. Glorious will be the deliverance of those who have patiently waited for His coming and whose names are written in the book of life.
-Great Controversy, The Time of Trouble

[C4K]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Look to me like he's young enough to live another 50 or 60 years before dying a natural death, and I hope that God blesses him with such a long life.

I knew I liked you John smile.gif . Sixty years would make me 110 smile.gif .

Even though I am pre-mil, pre-trib, I am well prepared to live 110 if that what the Lord desires.

I simply don't know.

Maranatha

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Sonjeo:
That is odd because the reason some put them in children and pets is in order to locate them.
A dog can't be identified by the rf chip unless that animal is taken to a shelter that has rf reader technology. A shelter worker must take an rf wand (like the metal detector wands at airports) and run it over the animal. Only then can the rf chip be detected. The RF chip itself gives off no signal and has no power whatsoever. The way the chip works is that, when a radio wave runs over it, the chip reflects the wave back in a specific harmonic. RF chips are only identifiable when exposed to strong radio waves at close range (a few feet or inches). Have you ever bought clothes and set off a detector on the way out of the store? That's an rf chip. Once you leave the store, you're too far away from the detector (you have to be 2 feet or less from it).
Not at all since the topic involves the anti-christ which I would call a dark regime.
Why is it that American Christians are always americacentric? What makes us think that it's the US in the center of end times prophecy? Sounds rather egotistic, doesn't it?
I believe certain signs put the end close but I think there is flexiblity of a hundred years or so, imho. That same thing has been claimed by people for 2000 years. In fact, people in the 70's were "predicting" that the end would come in the next 30 or 40 years. Well, it's 30 to 40 years later, and they've all been shown to be wrong. Just ask Hal Lindsey, who was HUGE in the 70's. And he's STILL on TV. Go figure.

[Sonjeo]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sonjeo:
That is odd because the reason some put them in children and pets is in order to locate them.
A dog can't be identified by the rf chip unless that animal is taken to a shelter that has rf reader technology. A shelter worker must take an rf wand (like the metal detector wands at airports) and run it over the animal. Only then can the rf chip be detected. The RF chip itself gives off no signal and has no power whatsoever. The way the chip works is that, when a radio wave runs over it, the chip reflects the wave back in a specific harmonic. RF chips are only identifiable when exposed to strong radio waves at close range (a few feet or inches). Have you ever bought clothes and set off a detector on the way out of the store? That's an rf chip. Once you leave the store, you're too far away from the detector (you have to be 2 feet or less from it).

Scanners may only be effective at a few feet now but but how long do you think until they can effectively scan larger areas keeping tabs on everyones movement, give it 10 years easy. Remember, we are not talking about a voluntary situation here but rather a coercive police state enviroment where every cutting edge technological development will be employed. We are entering a dangerous area with all this and we should draw the line and not enter it at all. I wonder if anyone ever realizes the easy efficent way may be the evil way.
Not at all since the topic involves the anti-christ which I would call a dark regime.
Why is it that American Christians are always americacentric? What makes us think that it's the US in the center of end times prophecy? Sounds rather egotistic, doesn't it? [/qb]

We are talking about America here but I for one would include it for every nation of people aspiring to be free. The rationale should apply everywhere and the issue is deeper than particular people or places,of course. "Always Americacentric".To me that is an amazing remark because I have found just the opposite. Let me explain. The U.S. is the most powerful nation militarily and economically the world has ever known in which any nation would be foolish to try to make legitimate war with. We have the majority of Christians apparently caught up with Hal Lindsay and Tim Lahay's, among many others, concept of the endtimes at hand and they cannot find the U.S. in biblical prophecy. Because of what they write the vast majority of Americas would not even consider that the U.S. could be the beast which rises up from the land of Rev. Ch. 13 or mystery babylon. All this seems to me to be very nonamerica-centric to the extreme. It is probably egotistical that Christians in this country think it could never do evil just because they reside here.
I believe certain signs put the end close but I think there is flexiblity of a hundred years or so, imho. That same thing has been claimed by people for 2000 years. In fact, people in the 70's were "predicting" that the end would come in the next 30 or 40 years. Well, it's 30 to 40 years later, and they've all been shown to be wrong. Just ask Hal Lindsey, who was HUGE in the 70's. And he's STILL on TV. Go figure. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I remember the 70's. Some were looking for the last 7 years to begin in 1982. I was naive and without much discernment trusting my leaders and what others said. Now we have to ask God to help us think for ourselves but much of the former still goes on big time as we can see. The end time will come and then somebody has to be right eventually. There are too many Christians just saying they are pre-trip and ha ha they are out of here so bring on the toxic waste, famines and sure I'll be part of the groundwork for A.C.'s technological surveillence nightmare and every other conservative money serving, fear induced agenda because, hey I'm outta here but if they are wrong and the end is not as they think then the conditions they allowed are on their children and their children's children. It just pays to be wise with the time you have.

[ August 19, 2005, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Sonjeo ]

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Yes there is, one of the OT minor prophets has it.
Kindly show us what scripture states that Christ will be coming in our lifetimes (roughly between now and 2050 for most of us).
Not a penny towards retirement in a few years, don't need it. You're not saving for retirement? You haven't saved any money for retirement? And you're doing this on purpose? Do you honestly think this is responsible behavior for a Christian?

Or are you telling us that putting money in our retirement accounts means we're guilty of not believing scripture?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by C4K:
Even though I am pre-mil, pre-trib, I am well prepared to live 110 if that what the Lord desires.

I simply don't know.Amen, as am I.

I'm fully prepared to live to be 70, 80, 100, or 120, if the Lord allows it. I'm also prepared to be with the Lord tomorrow, if the Lord allows it.

[billwald]

"Jesus cannot come back till the 7 year covenant is confirmed, the third temple is built and the Antichrist is reavealed."

Then let's nuke Jerusalem.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Sonjeo:
Scanners may only be effective at a few feet now but but how long do you think until they can effectively scan larger areas keeping tabs on everyones movement, give it 10 years easy.
I think you don't understand rf technology. The rf waves are incapable of travelling anything more than a very short distance. Plus, anything with an RF chip sets off all sorts of rf alarms. At the cmpany I work for, we have ID badges that use an rf card. When held up to a reader, the door is unlocked. I can't go anywhere with the card on me. Whenever I go to a department store, the grocery store, video store, etc, the alarms go off. In fact, it happenned just this morning at a local convenience store. If the laws of physics were someday broken, and my rf card could be read from a far-away location, you'd be seeing alarms going off left and right. No matter how many years pass, 10, 20, or 30, this ain't gonna happen. rf chips have bene around for 20 years, and the only thing that has happenned is that rf readers have become cheaper and lighter. But the inhierent nature of rf technology requires that they be detected at extremely close range.

I'm afraid that your concerns stem from a lack of understanding of the technology and physics behind rf devices. So far, in the history of humankind, we have been unable to change the laws of physics.
Remember, we are not talking about a voluntary situation here but rather a coercive police state enviroment where every cutting edge technological development will be employed.
We have the technology today to track peoples' wearabouts via their cell phones. Where is the outcry from the Christian community that cell phones are the mark fo the beast? Oh wait, that was one of the claims when cell phones were in their infancy. Same with atm cards, credit cards, UPC bar codes, and, at one time, even satellite tv. These were all considered at one time or another to be the mark of the beast. The mark du jour is the rf chip.
We are talking about America here but I for one would include it for every nation of people aspiring to be free.
That is really really stretching scripture so thin you can't walk on it.
Yes I remember the 70's. Some were looking for the last 7 years to begin in 1982. I was naive and without much discernment trusting my leaders and what others said. Now we have to ask God to help us think for ourselves but much of the former still goes on big time as we can see.
And we are no closer to understanding end times prophecy as they. Not even Jesus knew when he would return. Why do we think we will know more than Christ? That is why I say consistently that the best we can do is speculate. When we start pushing our speculations as scripturally accurate, we decieve ourselves, amd we presume Christ.

I for one choose to focuse on, and share the message of, Christ's first coming. I am prepared to be with Christ tomorrow if called. I'm also praparing to live a full life if called.

The only thing I can scripturally be certain of is that we are 2000 years closer to the end of the age than we were when Christ was here.

[Sonjeo]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sonjeo:
Scanners may only be effective at a few feet now but but how long do you think until they can effectively scan larger areas keeping tabs on everyones movement, give it 10 years easy.[qb]
I think you don't understand rf technology. The rf waves are incapable of travelling anything more than a very short distance. Plus, anything with an RF chip sets off all sorts of rf alarms. At the cmpany I work for, we have ID badges that use an rf card. When held up to a reader, the door is unlocked. I can't go anywhere with the card on me. Whenever I go to a department store, the grocery store, video store, etc, the alarms go off. In fact, it happenned just this morning at a local convenience store. If the laws of physics were someday broken, and my rf card could be read from a far-away location, you'd be seeing alarms going off left and right. No matter how many years pass, 10, 20, or 30, this ain't gonna happen. rf chips have bene around for 20 years, and the only thing that has happenned is that rf readers have become cheaper and lighter. But the inhierent nature of rf technology requires that they be detected at extremely close range.

I'm afraid that your concerns stem from a lack of understanding of the technology and physics behind rf devices. So far, in the history of humankind, we have been unable to change the laws of physics.[qb/]

I understand that but of course I'am not referring to the technology as it is that is why I originally said potential and it is dangerous to get people acclimated to placing any device under the skin.
[qb]Remember, we are not talking about a voluntary situation here but rather a coercive police state enviroment where every cutting edge technological development will be employed.
We have the technology today to track peoples' wearabouts via their cell phones. Where is the outcry from the Christian community that cell phones are the mark fo the beast? Oh wait, that was one of the claims when cell phones were in their infancy. Same with atm cards, credit cards, UPC bar codes, and, at one time, even satellite tv. These were all considered at one time or another to be the mark of the beast. The mark du jour is the rf chip.

You have to appreciate the line that is crossed with making people acceptive planting devices within the body, that is connections that cannot be easily disconnected, to be sure.

We are talking about America here but I for one would include it for every nation of people aspiring to be free.
That is really really stretching scripture so thin you can't walk on it.
Yes I remember the 70's. Some were looking for the last 7 years to begin in 1982. I was naive and without much discernment trusting my leaders and what others said. Now we have to ask God to help us think for ourselves but much of the former still goes on big time as we can see.
And we are no closer to understanding end times prophecy as they. Not even Jesus knew when he would return. Why do we think we will know more than Christ? That is why I say consistently that the best we can do is speculate. When we start pushing our speculations as scripturally accurate, we decieve ourselves, amd we presume Christ.

I for one choose to focuse on, and share the message of, Christ's first coming. I am prepared to be with Christ tomorrow if called. I'm also praparing to live a full life if called.

The only thing I can scripturally be certain of is that we are 2000 years closer to the end of the age than we were when Christ was here. </font>[/QUOTE]

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Sonjeo:
I understand that but of course I'am not referring to the technology as it is that is why I originally said potential and it is dangerous to get people acclimated to placing any device under the skin.I'm trying to tell you that you don't understand the technology. RF waves required to detect an implanted chip are physically incapable of travelling anything further than short distances. This is not because of technology, this is due to the laws of physics. 20 years from now, the laws of physics will remain.

Scripture is very clear that the mark of the beast (assuming it's a literal mark, and not an analogy for something yet uncomprehended) will be "on" the hand, not under the hand or under the skin. So to presume that the rf chip is the mark, or will lead up to the mark, is speculative at best.
You have to appreciate the line that is crossed with making people acceptive planting devices within the body, that is connections that cannot be easily disconnected, to be sure.In regards to invasion of personal liberty, yes. In regards to end times prophecy, again, sheer speculation.

[Sonjeo]

Originally posted by Johnv:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sonjeo:

[QUOTE]We are talking about America here but I for one would include it for every nation of people aspiring to be free.
That is really really stretching scripture so thin you can't walk on it.

The point here is about the america-centric statement. That Lindsay, Lahay and so many others believe this is the endtimes but cannot find the most powerful nation to ever exist on the earth. That is what I call nonamerica-centric.

Yes I remember the 70's. Some were looking for the last 7 years to begin in 1982. I was naive and without much discernment trusting my leaders and what others said. Now we have to ask God to help us think for ourselves but much of the former still goes on big time as we can see.
And we are no closer to understanding end times prophecy as they. Not even Jesus knew when he would return. Why do we think we will know more than Christ? That is why I say consistently that the best we can do is speculate. When we start pushing our speculations as scripturally accurate, we decieve ourselves, amd we presume Christ.

No, we cannot know the exact day or hour but as Jesus said we would know the time is near by the signs at hand. Make no mistake, I consider this speculation. This is not written in stone and I have yet to hear anyone who will say their interpretation of Revelations and the last days is inspired by the Holy Spirit so I certainly agree here, however Jesus said we should be diligent and watch for the signs so all this is about looking for and recognizing the signs of His coming.

[Sonjeo]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sonjeo:
I understand that but of course I'am not referring to the technology as it is that is why I originally said potential and it is dangerous to get people acclimated to placing any device under the skin.I'm trying to tell you that you don't understand the technology. RF waves required to detect an implanted chip are physically incapable of travelling anything further than short distances. This is not because of technology, this is due to the laws of physics. 20 years from now, the laws of physics will remain.

I'm not so focused here on the RF technology as I'am the broader issue. I understand it's limits but as people's cry for security increase you know different technologies will be introduced. Is it so far fetched that the GPS technology in cell phones can be made smaller and incorporated under the skin with the ID chip also. In the movie "Minority Report" which is supposed to be a plausible extension of present technology people are identified walking by advertisments and billboards. Not GPS but certainly advancement of scanning ability. Carrying information on the chip so transactions can be made in a cashless scenario is objectionable enough but the danger is in crossing that line of allowing device's as standard practice within the person. Everything previously has involved numbers or cards carried on the person, not within the person. I think it is a line that should not be crossed because if we do, we get into the possiblity of being unable to remove it without intended harm. People seem to have a natural repulsion to this and I think the church should do all it can to reinforce this repulsion.

</font>[/QUOTE]Scripture is very clear that the mark of the beast (assuming it's a literal mark, and not an analogy for something yet uncomprehended) will be "on" the hand, not under the hand or under the skin. So to presume that the rf chip is the mark, or will lead up to the mark, is speculative at best.


I agree it is speculative but the fact that a chip implant, not necessarily the RF chip, is on or in the hand(I don't think the scripture is legalistic on this as a chip under the hand can also surface the skin)and can be used to engage point of sale transactions is of serious concern since scripture says no one will be able to buy or sell without the mark. My objections here however are primarily on the potential abuse of privacy and personal liberties under a sooner than you think future dark regime, preA.C., and possibly in your childrens lap. I mean if one thinks possible the last days are 1000yrs. off then we would be naive to believe there will be no more Hitlers on the way and I say deny them this control for the sake of those within that 1000yrs because we can prevent that but since scripture must be fulfilled whatever A.C. must do will occur in his time. Drawing the line now against any such devices within the body is just wise policy.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Sonjeo:
That Lindsay, Lahay and so many others believe this is the endtimes but cannot find the most powerful nation to ever exist on the earth.
Lindsay has been wrong so many times, if I had a dollar for every time he was, I'd be a very wealthy man. And as far as Lahaye, he's at best an adequate writer of fiction. (Certainly, I can't be the only one who thinks that the "Left Behind" series was lousy writing.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

The left behind series was written to make money for LeHaye and Jenkins, it's as simple as that.

Tam

[prophecynut]

Johnv, not the proper time or place to reveal it.

We have less than 10 years.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Johnv, not the proper time or place to reveal it.

We have less than 10 years. I'll be here on this board in 2015 to tell you you were as wrong as everyone else.

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Johnv, not the proper time or place to reveal it.

We have less than 10 years. So, do you know the date?

[prophecynut]

Which one, His appearing for the Church or the Second Coming in judgment?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Which one, His appearing for the Church or the Second Coming in judgment? Both.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by C4K:
So, do you know the date? Which one C4K?

[prophecynut]

Bump, C4K are you refusing to answer my question?

[C4K]

Aren't we in an accusatory mood PN?

My enitre life is not spent on the BB.

Do you know the date of the rapture?

Or...do you know the date of His Second Coming?

[prophecynut]

Ah, there you is.

Heb. 10:25
"Let us not give up meeting together, as some in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (NIV)

The phrase "see the Day" only appears here in God's Word. The Greek for "see" is emblepo, 11 of the 12x it is used in the NT someone is looking straightforward, usually with a look of interest, love, or concern. Jesus "looked" at the rich young man and loved him Mk. 10:21. He later "looked" at the disciples as he discussed an important issue (Mt. 19:26; Mk. 10:27).

The "Day" refers to our blessed hope when we are raptured (vs.37-39). To enable the Church to look straightforward to that day one must come and correctly reveal this Day to the Church.

The person who reveals this Day is the "righteous one" who lives by faith (v.38), and lives among the righteous in America (Hab. 2:4). NIV

Knowing the hour of the Rapture has two possibilities, depending on whether standard time or daylight time used by the Lord. I lean towards standard time as used in the 1st Century. It will occur night time here at an hour I know.

I don't know the hour or day of the Second Coming, Scripture plainly states we can not know, but does not restrict us from knowing the week, month or year of it. There is a week in December of a certain year that probably is the week of His return with December a certainty.

On the "day his feet stand on the Mount of Olives" it will be a "unique day" a day with no light and "no cold or frost" (Zec. 14:4,6). If this day occurred during the summer it would not be a unique day because normally there is no cold or frost. Coming on a day in December without cold or frost would make it a unique day thus confiming His return to be during the winter.

[bruren777]

There is a bank in Wash. state which has an ad on tv. A man walks up to the bank teller ands asks to check his account. The teller has him lean over and she stamps a code bar on his forehead, he asked her what that was for. She told him it is their new tracking system to keep in touch with their customers.

Then he waits in another line while a teller is rubbing a mans forehead over a scanner, she is having trouble with the scanner. She is saying"I hate it when these darn things don't scan"

I wonder if the people whom came up with that ad knew how close to prophecy they were ?

[bruren777]

Our dog has a chip implanted in her, I think this give us a good chance to get her back if she becomes lost.

The Bible does not speak of animals having the mark of the beast.

Chip implants in animals is a safety net for them.

[C4K]

Since you know the precise date and time of the Rapture could you please share it with us PN? Lets use GMT since it is universal and does not change with daylight savings time. This will allow everyone to know if you are right or wrong. Since you know there should not be a problem sharing it.

Plus, I would love an explanation of how Habakkuk 2v4 tells us that a righteous person in America will reveal the day of the rapture.

[prophecynut]

Not every one will know if I'm right or wrong until it happens. As said before, it's not the time or place to reveal it, later when my book is published you can decide for yourself. There is one person who attends the same church I'm a member of that fully accepts the day and hour of the Rapture and the year of the 2nd coming. Our Pastor believes in the day and hour of the Rapture and the year of the Second Coming, but lacks the courage to admit it. I'm sure there are members in the Council of Eighteen of GARBC that believe also, but I have not heard from them.

As to Hab. 2 read the following links:

http://www.rense.com/general61/bbil.shtm

http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/rape3.shtml


What the Federal Reserve has done to America the World Bank and Inernational Monetary Fund has done to the nations of the world.

"The righteous one" Hebrews 10

Verses 37-38 were adapted by the author of Hebrews from the Septuagint of Habakkuk 2:3-4, a prophet who spoke of a coming revelation concerning America and "the righteous" residing there. Hebrews changes it to the coming of Jesus and a righteous person. The connotation from these related Scriptures is that the "righteous one" lives among the "righteous" who live in America.

There are other references to this "righteous one" in the Gospels.

[C4K]

And what does this have to do with Habakkuk? Are you claiming to be the righteous one from America who will reveal that day of the rapture? Why do you put America where the Bible does not put it?

Can we say "false prophet?"

[prophecynut]

You sure can, doesn't bother me one bit.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by prophecynut:
Which one, His appearing for the Church or the Second Coming in judgment? Both. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm still waiting. Kindly answer the question. What is the date for His appearing for the Church, and what is the date for the Second Coming in Judgement. An aproximate date range will do.

If you are unable to provide dates, then you are proving yourself to be a false prophet, following a long line of false prophets like Hal Lindsey, Texx Marrs, and David Hunt, proving once again that gullible sheep can be fleeced by crying wolf.

[prophecynut]

And I thought this thread was all sewed up.

You can figure it out yourselves, you don't need a guru to tell you.

In the 1940s the boundaries of various Middle East countries were established, Israel November 29,1947 and Syria several years before. The fig tree and all the other trees (Lk. 21:29) sprouting leaves figurative speaks of the formation of these nations. The generation born about the same time of the birth of these nations will not all pass away before the things in Mt. 24, Mark 13 and LK. 21 are fulfilled. The length of this generation is 70 years.

Daniel's 70th week is the last 7 years ending with the Second Coming during the winter months, the Rapture is 3.5 years prior to it.

Go figure, oh smart one.

[C4K]

Wow! With this kind of conjecture, guesswork, and presupposition even a dummy like me can figure it out.

Let me see -

November 29, 1947 (as good a date as any I suppose) plus a 70 year generation (thats as good a guess as any I suppose)takes us to November 29, 2017.

Subtract 3 1/2 years (as good a guess as any I suppose) and we come up with a definite rapture date of May 29, 2014. Am I right?

That would mean the tribulation will start on November 29, 2010?

See, I too can be a false prophet. Since I am a pre-trib rapturist I declare a rapture date of Novemeber 29, 2010!

:rolleyes: :( :eek:

PLEASE folks - I hope you realise that all pre-trib, pre-mil rapturists are not like our brother PN.

[PrimePower7]

Hey prophecy nut,
Seems Peter and John thought the appearing and the second coming were the same thing. You know the "Apokalupsis of Jesus Christ"? Well, I Peter 1:7 has "apokalupsis" behind "appearing". What about that? The "every eye shall see Him" coming of Revelation 1:7 is the "appearing" of I Peter 1:7. Isn't that neat?

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by C4K:

Subtract 3 1/2 years (as good a guess as any I suppose) and we come up with a definite rapture date of May 29, 2014. Am I right? No, approximate date.


That would mean the tribulation will start on November 29, 2010?No, the Tribulation is 3.5 years.

[C4K]

No, the tribulation is 7 years.

See I am getting good at this false prophecy business ;) .

[prophecynut]

Primepower7

His appearing to the Church is always in the context of God's grace and the heavenly realm.

"Into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you" 1:4

"may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed," v.7

"be self-controlled: set you hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed." 13

I want you to locate in chapter one any reference to the earthly judgements in Mt. 24 and Revelation.

[music4Him]

After going to church last Sunday night I heard it said there will be only 3 1/2 years of tribulation. That is after the anti-christ appears and desicrates(sp?) the temple. If there is 7 years of tribulation what heralds it in? Although we know when the last 3 1/2 years are. :D

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Also at another Revalation/End Time bible study years ago I heard it said when the rapture happens and Jesus comes to get the saints He doesn't touch the Earth, but when He comes back with His saints to reign then he touches the Earth that being his 2nd comming.

I am not saying this is how it will be but my reasoning is this..... if it would be of no concern for Christians why then why....is the reason for all the things to look for in the last days and the warnings? I figure were gonna go through some things and in so doing we can warn the unsaved and hopefully they will heed the Word of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

[prophecynut]

music4him quotes
"If there is 7 years of tribulation what heralds it in?"

The 7 year period begins with the peace covenant that begins the false "Peace and safety" of 1 Thess. 5:3. OT Scriptures on this peace are: Jer. 4:10; 5:14; 8:1,15; 23:17; 14:13; Eze. 13:10,16; 38:8,11,14. Each reference to this peace is followed by judgment, no where in the Bible does it elaborate on what events occur on earth during this peace.

"why....is the reason for all the things to look for in the last days and the warnings?"

The Church is given warnings as to false prophets and teachers, antichrists and the schemes of the evil one, but never the earthly judgments during the "time of the end" which is the great tribulation of 3.5 years covered in MT. 24 and Revelation.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
You can figure it out yourselves, you don't need a guru to tell you.YOU made the claim, so YOU need to provide the data. If you don't your statement clearly falls into the category of a false prophet. So, since you made the claim, answer the questions. What is the date for His appearing for the Church, and what is the date for the Second Coming in Judgement. An aproximate date range will do.

[prophecynut]

I gave you adequate data for an approximate date, as to the day and hour of the Rapture and the week of the 2nd coming, you will have to wait like everyone else.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
I gave you adequate data for an approximate date, as to the day and hour of the Rapture and the week of the 2nd coming, you will have to wait like everyone else. Then interpret the data and tell me what the dates are, since you claim to know what the dates are. All you've done here is provided yourself an "out" instead of being held accountable for your claim that you know that the specific dates are.

So again, what are the specific dates or date ranges, in your interpretation?

[prophecynut]

1947 + 70 years = 2017 Dec. Second Coming - 3.5 years = 2014 summer Rapture.

[C4K]

Thats because a 40 year deifintion of generation didn't work for all those guys in the 70s. Just redifine generation till it works.

Maranatha - even so, come Lord Jesus.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
1947 + 70 years = 2017 Dec. Second Coming - 3.5 years = 2014 summer Rapture. Okay, thanks. I'm going to continue to contrinute to my retirement fund as I have been. You're going to be sorry you didn't.

[prophecynut]

Those choosing 40 years as the Mt. 24 generation should of realized forty has nothing to do with a generation, rather it's associated with a period of probation, trial, and chastisement.

The Greek genea refer to a period of time loosely defined as the time between a parent's prime and that of his child, which is about 30 years.

Mt. 24:34 states those born when Israel became a nation "will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" which includes the Second Coming.

The first generation would end around age 30 and the second around 60 years and the third around 90 years or 2037. By the end of the fourth generation or 120 years all would have passed away not seeing those things in Mt. 24.

Joseph lived a hundred and ten years and saw the third generation of his children, he soon died and did not see the fourth generation (Gen. 50:22-24).

The Second Coming has to occur within the third generation from 1947 or else no one would be alive to see it in the fourth generation. The things in Mt. 24 must occur in the third generation or from 2007 to 2037. Seventy years from 1947 is 2017 and within the span of the third generation.

[Johnv]

All I know is I have 9 years before I can tell prophecynut he's wrong about these, and I have 2 more years before I can tell le that she was wrong about the "islamization of america happenning within 5 years".

[prophecynut]

You have less than 9 years to say "I told you so"
The 7 year covenant will be confirmed 2010.

[prophecynut]

Make that confirmation in Jan-Feb of 2011

[Miss22]

Why does He say that no one knows the day or the hour then?

[prophecynut]

Howdy Miss22, you're new here, welcome.

Not knowing the day or hour does not include the month or year.

[C4K]

I wish I could tell you the number of "certain dates" have come and gone in just my short lifetime.

I wonder why PN thinks he/she is any better than all the other date setters which have come and gone?

[music4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
music4him quotes
"If there is 7 years of tribulation what heralds it in?"

The 7 year period begins with the peace covenant that begins the false "Peace and safety" of 1 Thess. 5:3. OT Scriptures on this peace are: Jer. 4:10; 5:14; 8:1,15; 23:17; 14:13; Eze. 13:10,16; 38:8,11,14. Each reference to this peace is followed by judgment, no where in the Bible does it elaborate on what events occur on earth during this peace.

"why....is the reason for all the things to look for in the last days and the warnings?"

The Church is given warnings as to false prophets and teachers, antichrists and the schemes of the evil one, but never the earthly judgments during the "time of the end" which is the great tribulation of 3.5 years covered in MT. 24 and Revelation. graemlins/wave.gif thank you for reminding me...I forgot about the 7 year peace treaty, that will be broken in 3 1/2 years after its signed.

[music4Him]

Originally posted by C4K:
I wish I could tell you the number of "certain dates" have come and gone in just my short lifetime.

I wonder why PN thinks he/she is any better than all the other date setters which have come and gone? I concure with you C4K. I have learned not to question some things. I do however know it will be in God's perfect time.

Matt. 24:36-39~ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[music4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Make that confirmation in Jan-Feb of 2011 Uuh what peace treaty was signed in Jan-Feb 2004? Or are you saying that this will be when the peace treaty might be signed?

[music4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
1947 + 70 years = 2017 Dec. Second Coming - 3.5 years = 2014 summer Rapture. Ok but is this using the Jewish calendar?

[Scott J]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
You have less than 9 years to say "I told you so"
The 7 year covenant will be confirmed 2010. Of course, everything you propose is dependent on you having a perfect interpretation of Mat 24... There is no revealed scripture that demonstrates conclusively that the fig tree parable relates to any Israeli national event. It may just be a comparison back to the events listed previously.

I heard a poplular CoG/pentacostal evangelist named Perry Stone on tape in the early 90's. He made a prediction with every bit as much certainty as yours... that the rapture had to take place within 25 years of the reunification of Jerusalem... which I think was 1967.

He was wrong... quite likely, you are too.

BTW, if you really and truly have faith in your prophecy then you are argue politics way too hard.

[prophecynut]

Music4Him

The treaty will probably be signed by Janurary 15 2011 based on our calendar and the 360 day prophetic year.

[Brother Ian]

Why don't we accept the fact that no one knows the date and should quit wasting time trying to figure it out.

Jesus is coming again. Live like He is coming back today. Have eager anticipation about His coming. Preach the Gospel, make disciples. Win the world to Jesus.

[C4K]

Virtually everyone here accepts that.

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus said one should call no one stupid; but some folks all their lives through walk shouting I'm a fool; I'm a fool! Such okes are the date-setters!

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Brother Ian:
no one knows the date and should quit wasting time trying to figure it out.
No one on this board has proven we are not to know the month or year of the Second Coming and the day and hour of the Rapture. Where does it state in Scripture we are not to know?

"Figure" - means to calculate, compute, estimate.
My date does not originate from my intellect, it is based on sound interpretation of OT prophecies.

[Scott J]

Originally posted by prophecynut:

My date does not originate from my intellect, it is based on sound interpretation of OT prophecies. So were the Pharisees' interpretations that convinced them that Christ would come in power and smite the Romans.

Biblical prophecy is infallible. Interpretations by folks like you and me are not.

You assert far more certainty than anyone not operating under direct inspiration should.

[prophecynut]

No one on this board has proven we are not to know the month or year of the Second Coming and the day and hour of the Rapture. Where does it state in Scripture we are not to know?

[music4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
No one on this board has proven we are not to know the month or year of the Second Coming and the day and hour of the Rapture. Where does it state in Scripture we are not to know? I thought thats what I did with some of the scripture I posted? Maybe you have interpreted them differently?

Matt. 24:36~ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-2~
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Now there are hints as to around what time it could be but no definate time its gonna be. It says not even the angels of heaven know. It says the day of the Lord cometh like a thief in the night.......do you think that a thief is gonna give you the day and time he is gonna rob you?

Although we have got to be getting prety close to the second comming.

[music4Him]

BTW, that scripture I quoted in Matt. 24:36...well thats Jesus talking. So if Jesus said it I believe it. When he says that only his Father knows.... that pretty much settles it.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

Acts 1-7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

1Thes-52 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

I believe that the unsaved will be caught completely off guard when Jesus returns.

But Gods people,(even though they don't know the day nor the hour, or the month or year), will have been watching, and will not be surprised.

The unsaved don't believe in God, so they won't believe He is coming back so therefore His coming (to them) will be like theif in the night.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

[music4Him]

graemlins/thumbs.gif ~Amen Tam! I totally agree. graemlins/wave.gif

[prophecynut]

still waiting

Matt. 24:36~ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Quoting The Bible Knowledge Commentary: "no one knows the precise moment when that day or hour will arrive."


Rev. 9:15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were re leased to kill a third of mankind.

Bible Knowledge Commentary: "The release of these four is minutely timed"

The day or hour or "precise moment" of the Second Coming cannot be determined; does not include year or month.

Tam
But Gods people,(even though they don't know the day nor the hour, or the month or year), will have been watching, and will not be surprised. Hebrews 10:25 says: "let us encourage one another - and all the more as you (Church) see the Day approaching." This passage does not include the month or year, don't add to Scripture. The Church knows who their Savior is and will know what day He returns, all we need to do is "wait."

The Church is never told to "watch" for the Rapture, only the Jews during the Tribulation are told to watch for the Second Coming because they don't know who their Messiah is or what day he returns.

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by C4K:
Since I am pre-trib, pre-mil I won't be here for that ;) . PTL Me and mine also.

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
Since I am pre-trib, pre-mil I won't be here for that ;) . So believing in a particular eschatology makes it come about? I wish it was that
easy. :D </font>[/QUOTE]You've got your thinking on cause and effect mixed up.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

P-Nut: The word "day" can mean different periods of time. as it is explained in Strongs Con. See below.

2250. hmera hemera, hay-mer'-ah
feminine (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):--age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

Even you must know that God is not going to tell you when it is going to happen. (not like next tues, or Jan 15th, or any such nonsense!!

You will know by the sign of the times.

Even in the scripture you posted;

Hebrews 10:25 says: "let us encourage one another - and all the more as you (Church) see the Day approaching."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then you said:

The Church is never told to "watch" for the Rapture, only the Jews during the Tribulation are told to watch for the Second Coming because they don't know who their Messiah is or what day he returns.

You're tripping over your own thoughts. Hebrews is only for the Jews,(if we are to believe you).So why are you quoting it for us??

My statement still stands as correct, If you can't understand such a simple thing, then you've studied too long and scrambled too many scriptures.

I shall pray for you.

Peace,

Tam

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

Rev 9-15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

"A" seems to be the operative word, not "this" as shown in your redidtion below!

Rev. 9:15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were re leased to kill a third of mankind

What version did you have to use to find it written that way?

Selah,

Tam

[prophecynut]

"If you can't understand such a simple thing, then you've studied too long" WHAT? You are :confused:


"Even you must know that God is not going to tell you when it is going to happen."

I'm absolutely sure.

[music4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
still waiting

Matt. 24:36~ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Quoting The Bible Knowledge Commentary: "no one knows the precise moment when that day or hour will arrive."


Rev. 9:15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were re leased to kill a third of mankind.

Bible Knowledge Commentary: "The release of these four is minutely timed"

The day or hour or "precise moment" of the Second Coming cannot be determined; does not include year or month.
Well if you go and re-read that verse you will realize that the scripture it says they were kept ready....it still does not specify if they knew, but leads one to understand that being kept ready for that day... is not the same as knowing that day. If they knew what day it was going to be they would not have to be "kept ready"....they'd be waiting and ready for the day.
Somewhat like a fire fighter........a fire fighter never knows when theres going to be a fire but he knows that sooner or later there will be a fire. Until then we check all our fire fighting equipment, keep ourselfs in shape, and are kept ready with thraining and studing procedures on putting out fires.

BTW, I seen that the first thing you had posted in this quote was the words "still waiting"? Like I quoted before out of Matt 24:36 when Jesus said that only the Father knows. Are you arguing that Jesus didn't say that? :eek:

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

graemlins/wave.gif

[prophecynut]

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The month and year are not in this verse. Still waiting.

[music4Him]

Good night nurse but your being stubborn! :D
Day and hour would narrow it down more than a month and year, but even so....If the Lord gave a month and a year.... you'd know it would be 28 - 31 days to choose from depending on the month it lands in and wether it's a leap year. Right? You have jumped ahead already and set the date of Jan. 15th 2011 or is this the preacher you listen to who has set this date? You show me in the bible where it says you can set a day when the Lord will return.

And if its ok to put the month and year in then how come Matt. 24:36 don't go like this.........

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. However here's the month and the year so be ready....or.....except in the last days it will be told unto them watching and waiting.

No it don't say that, so it gives you the idea its a mystery. When it says no man knows the day or the hour... its a pretty sure bet no man will know the month or the day either.

Just to futher back up what I'm saying here.
Jesus says in Mat 24:20 ~But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

.......you'd think He'd be more definite here about the tribulation, but He goes on to say.....

Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

and then.....

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[/i]

Do not get me wrong because I believe that the gift of prophecy as with all the gifts of the Spirit are for today, but not the way you are using it.
__________________________________________________

Just a thought....If the Lord told people the month and year of his return then there would be many trying to get salvation the day before that month began. On a sad note as to that fact... when I was 8 years old I asked a man if he was saved and he said no. Upon hearing that I asked him how he thought he'd get to heaven... and he replied he would ask right before he died. :eek: How would that man know when his life might be required of him?
Its just like kids wait till the last minuet to cram the final exam the night before. Or like some of us wait until the day before our tags or inspection sticker run out before we renew them. The only thing is you might not pass the test or you may end up with a penalty. Sadder still some one reading this thread might take your word for it and become some what slack because they might think they have plenty of time. What if you are wrong..whats your asurance of being right...what scripture backs you up on the date/time/month..ect? The reason I ask this is because I don't see anyone else in here confirming this date within their Spirit.

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

[prophecynut]

You have jumped ahead already and set the date of Jan. 15th 2011 or is this the preacher you listen to who has set this date? You show me in the bible where it says you can set a day when the Lord will return.

I did not jump ahead and set a date, I back tracked from the Second Coming date established by OT Scripture. I haven't listened to any preacher, I have read books by prophecy teachers. The Day of the Rapture, Heb. 10:25. The week of the 2nd coming from two chronologies I came up with before I had a Bible.

except in the last days it will be told unto them watching and waiting.

The dates are revealed to a single person(Mt. 17:11; Heb. 10:38), another person, a messenger, will make it know to the Church (Hab. 2:2). The Church is to "wait" for their Savior, never are they to "watch" for Israel's Messiah as the Jews are.

its a pretty sure bet no man will know the month or the day either.

I'll give you a thousand to one odds, you name it.


Mat 24:20 ~But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Jewish prayers will be answered, their flight will be during summer and the day after the Sabbath.

If the Lord told people the month and year of his return then there would be many trying to get salvation the day before that month began.

Revival will happen sooner than later, the number of those coming to know the Lord will be determine by Him, not because somebody tries to obtain salvation.

some one reading this thread might take your word for it and become some what slack because they might think they have plenty of time.

When the truth comes out it will shake the very foundation of the Church, if will have the opposite effect as you think.

What if you are wrong..whats your asurance of being right...what scripture backs you up on the date/time/month..ect?

[I]No if or buts, buy the book when published.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

P-Nut, I'm not confused! Are you?

Now pay attention, and I'll show you one more time.

Acts 1-7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power

Seasons are 3 monthes long. (Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall.)

times can be translated years.

But like Music said, you were the one that said you would know the time exactly!! So what does monthes and years have to do with it?

Anyway, monthes and years are the same as times and seasons.

It can't be explained any clearer than that!!

(When bible scholers see the phrase " a time and times and half a time" it is translated 3 1/2 years.)

Think about it,

Tam

[prophecynut]

Acts 1-7 And he said unto them , It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power

Personal pronouns "them" and "you" refers to the Jewish disciples and not the Church which was still a mystery to everyone until revealed later to Paul. The Church is not in the context of this passage, it did not exist at the time. The disciples were not to know the times and seasons because they were not evident in their time like they are now to the Church.

The day is known for the Rapture.

The week is known for the Second Coming.

Keep them separate.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

Well, if they are known, then by all means lay it on us!!

Enlighten us unlearned people!! Please!!!

As far as that being for the disciples and not us, then tear that scripture out of your bible folks, we don't need it no more!!

Tam

[prophecynut]

You can also rip out Mt. 24, Mark 13 except verses 9-11, and Luke 21 except verses 12-19.

I already gave the approximate dates, I will not reveal the exact dates.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

Balony!!

[music4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
You can also rip out Mt. 24, Mark 13 except verses 9-11, and Luke 21 except verses 12-19.Well of course...... P-nut would want all those scriptures removed.

Matt 24:42-44 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Originally posted by prophecynut:
I already gave the approximate dates, I will not reveal the exact dates. Now its approxamate dates? What????? You seemed pretty sure on that January date..... now you say you won't reveal the exact dates. Wonder why that is? I think that you are now :confused: . I know what Jesus said, and when he says that "only his Father knows", I beleive it. I don't try to guess at the date.....all I can do is what Jesus told me and then let the chips fall were they may.

Matt 28:18-20~ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
You can also rip out Mt. 24, Mark 13 except verses 9-11, and Luke 21 except verses 12-19.

I already gave the approximate dates, I will not reveal the exact dates. Read the whole thread - he has given the date elsewhere here.

[music4Him]

graemlins/wave.gif C4K....P-nut has gave several dates......which one? :eek:

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Johnv, not the proper time or place to reveal it.

We have less than 10 years. Originally posted by prophecynut:
I gave you adequate data for an approximate date, as to the day and hour of the Rapture and the week of the 2nd coming, you will have to wait like everyone else. Originally posted by prophecynut:
1947 + 70 years = 2017 Dec. Second Coming - 3.5 years = 2014 summer Rapture. Originally posted by prophecynut:
Those choosing 40 years as the Mt. 24 generation should of realized forty has nothing to do with a generation, rather it's associated with a period of probation, trial, and chastisement.

The Greek genea refer to a period of time loosely defined as the time between a parent's prime and that of his child, which is about 30 years.

Mt. 24:34 states those born when Israel became a nation "will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" which includes the Second Coming.

The first generation would end around age 30 and the second around 60 years and the third around 90 years or 2037. By the end of the fourth generation or 120 years all would have passed away not seeing those things in Mt. 24.

Joseph lived a hundred and ten years and saw the third generation of his children, he soon died and did not see the fourth generation (Gen. 50:22-24).

The Second Coming has to occur within the third generation from 1947 or else no one would be alive to see it in the fourth generation. The things in Mt. 24 must occur in the third generation or from 2007 to 2037. Seventy years from 1947 is 2017 and within the span of the third generation. Originally posted by prophecynut:
You have less than 9 years to say "I told you so"
The 7 year covenant will be confirmed 2010. Originally posted by prophecynut:
Make that confirmation in Jan-Feb of 2011 Originally posted by prophecynut:
Music4Him

The treaty will probably be signed by Janurary 15 2011 based on our calendar and the 360 day prophetic year.

[El_Guero]

Music4Him

I got tired reading the digest version ...

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Acts 1-7 And he said unto them , It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power

Personal pronouns "them" and "you" refers to the Jewish disciples and not the Church which was still a mystery to everyone until revealed later to Paul. The Church is not in the context of this passage, it did not exist at the time. The disciples were not to know the times and seasons because they were not evident in their time like they are now to the Church.

The day is known for the Rapture.

The week is known for the Second Coming.

Keep them separate. I agree with this. Keep them seperate.

[hillclimber]

The Bible clearly states that no one knows the time of Christs return.

The Bible does not say we can't know the time of the calling out (rapture) of the body of Christ.

These are clearly two different events, intended for two different peoples for two different purposes.

[prophecynut]

Music4Him quote:

"PN has given several dates......which one?" :eek:

There are three approximate dates in my posts, apparently you are unable to arrange them in sequence which I've done below:

January 2011 - 7 year covenant begins.

Summer 2014 - the Rapture.

December 2017 - Second Coming.

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
The Bible clearly states that no one knows the time of Christs return.

The Bible does not say we can't know the time of the calling out (rapture) of the body of Christ.

These are clearly two different events, intended for two different peoples for two different purposes. Agree on the last two points. What units of time are you including in the "no one knows the time of Christ's return.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

P-Nut, have you noticed that no one agrees with you?

You had some allies when you first came on the board. But now I think you have blown your cover. I just want to say that you have named yourself correctly.

You are a Prophecy Nut!!

Adios,

Tam

[Ed Edwards]

The applicable time units (to 'no one knows
the day or the hour) is:]

millisecond
microsecond
second
minute
hour
24-hour day
48-hour day
week
fortnight
month
year
decade

Because longer periods of time are uncheckable,
they cannot apply:

centuries
millinnia

In prophetic literature here are the typical
meanings of words typically used:

hour - the appropriate time
day - the appropriate time
year - the appropriate time

In God's economy (AKA: dispensation)
1 hour = 1 day = 1 year

In Daniel 9:27 1 week = 7 years
(AKA: 'Day of the Lord')

In 2 Peter 3:8 1 day = 1,000 years

Praise God for his economy (dispensation):

In God's economy the blind see,
the deaf hear,
the lame leap like deer
there is plent of room at the table
food doesn't have carbs
etc.
etc.

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hillclimber:
The Bible clearly states that no one knows the time of Christs return.

The Bible does not say we can't know the time of the calling out (rapture) of the body of Christ.

These are clearly two different events, intended for two different peoples for two different purposes. Agree on the last two points. What units of time are you including in the "no one knows the time of Christ's return. </font>[/QUOTE]day and hour. The Father only, knows the rest.

[hillclimber]

One school of thought says the tribulation begins immediately after the rapture because God won't leave the world without a witness. Others say there is a time gap of up to 5 years between the rapture and begining of the trib. Other theories are out there also, including your PN.

[prophecynut]

I don't have a theory, I have OT Scriptures confirming 2017 as the Second Coming.

All the information I sent you by e-mail apparently was too incredible for you to comprehend.

[C4K]

You have your unique and particular interpretation of Scriptures as you have defined Bible prophecies. Anyone can do the same and come with myriad different dates.

[Ed Edwards]

Prophecynut: "January 2011 - 7 year covenant begins."

I think we should have a stoning party
scheduled for 1 Feb 2011.

Dan 9:27a (Geneva Bible)
And he shall confirme the couenant with many
for one weeke: and in the middes of the
weeke he shall cause ...

Does 'confirm' mean like 'renew'?

Their was a 7-year covenant between Israel
and Palestine signed in Oct 1993. It ran out
in October 2000. But the Lord didn't come back.

Yep, we should schedule a stoning party ...

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:3 (The Latin Vulgate)
sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto dicentes dic nobis quando haec erunt et quod signum adventus tui et consummationis saeculi
The Holman Christian Standard Bible

Matthew 24:3 (HCSB= Holman Christian Standard Bible)

While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be? And what shall be the signe of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Back of the $1 bill [/b]NOVUS ORDO SECLORIUM[/b]

Consider the slogan: NOVUS ORDO SECLORIUM: usually translated 'new order for the ages"

NOVUS - Latin word from which we get 'new'

ORDO - Latin word from which we get 'order'

SECLORIUM - latin word from which we get 'secular' (not religions, of the world) also means "age" .

So Novus Ordo Seclorium can indeed mean 'new order for the ages"

But Novus Ordo Seclorium and also mean: 'new order for the world' or 'new world order'.

I think i'll go to the mall and spread out
some new world order propaganda dolla' bills ;)

[music4Him]

Ed thats just about scary! Thanks for the latin lesson. I never noticed the words "Novus Ordo Seclorium" on the back, but hey if I did I wouldn't know what it ment. graemlins/laugh.gif What does "ANNUIT C(OE joined together)PTIS) near the triangle eye mean?

[C4K]

He (God) has favoured our undertakings

Combined the message is simple.

God has favoured our undertaking of a new order for the world (ages).

The United States and all it stands for was a new concept to the world. The founders beleived that God had favoured this new order of government in the world.

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
I don't have a theory, I have OT Scriptures confirming 2017 as the Second Coming.We also have Scriptures which affirm that you're a false prophet. I'd post them, but since you have demonstrated an inability to discern scripture, the point would be moot. I am therefore willing to wait it out until 2018 to prove you wrong.

[music4Him]

Thank you C4K~ I guess I never had a buck in my hand long enough to look at it as long as it would spend.....that was the main thing. graemlins/thumbs.gif

[music4Him]

Hey Johnv but what if our C4K is right on his guess? That would be interesting wouldn't it? graemlins/laugh.gif

quote by C4K
______________________________________________
Wow! With this kind of conjecture, guesswork, and presupposition even a dummy like me can figure it out.

Let me see -

November 29, 1947 (as good a date as any I suppose) plus a 70 year generation (thats as good a guess as any I suppose)takes us to November 29, 2017.

Subtract 3 1/2 years (as good a guess as any I suppose) and we come up with a definite rapture date of May 29, 2014. Am I right?

That would mean the tribulation will start on November 29, 2010?

See, I too can be a false prophet. Since I am a pre-trib rapturist I declare a rapture date of Novemeber 29, 2010!
________________________________________________

[prophecynut]

Any further comments on chip implants and the Antichrist?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Any further comments on chip implants and the Antichrist? None. That's because there's no scriptural correlation. Speculative, yes; scriptural no.

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
I don't have a theory, I have OT Scriptures confirming 2017 as the Second Coming.

All the information I sent you by e-mail apparently was too incredible for you to comprehend. As I told you, I didn't/don't have the time to go through all your writings to endorse or refute them. And you know why I cut off our dialog. And if I remember correctly, didn't you say you developed your proof (theory) before becoming saved?
Incredible was not the word I would have used.

[prophecynut]

After I got saved and before I had a Bible I knew the year, with Scriptural confirmation coming after I got saved. You want to know what Scriptures?

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by prophecynut:
I don't have a theory, I have OT Scriptures confirming 2017 as the Second Coming.We also have Scriptures which affirm that you're a false prophet. I'd post them, but since you have demonstrated an inability to discern scripture, the point would be moot. I am therefore willing to wait it out until 2018 to prove you wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]I request your scriptures.
Not for Prophecynut, but for the rest of us (who debate
these matters elsewhere).

Note that in 1993 Clinton had Israel and the Palestine
person Arafat sign a 7-year treaty. The "Sudamn Hussian
is the Antichrist" Web Ring said the postribulation
rapature/resurrection would take place at the
expiration of the treaty about November 2000.
That date passed with no Lord showing up. (I really
hate to miss the rapture and be left behind - most
especially for a post-tribu rapture smile.gif )

Deut 18:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
But the prophet which shall presume to speake a word
in my name, which I haue not commanded him to speake,
or that shall speake in the name of other gods, euen
that prophet shall die.

The post-tribs can stone the 2018 prophet in 2018,
the mid-trib will soten him 3½-years earlier in
Nov 2015, we pretribs will be in line stoning him
in 2011 ;)

[kubel]

I think its foolish to try to predict the rapture (or tribulation, depending on what you believe will happen first). People have been trying to for years, and they are still all wrong. What makes your prediction any better than theirs?

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
After I got saved and before I had a Bible I knew the year, with Scriptural confirmation coming after I got saved. You want to know what Scriptures? No.

Rev 9:15 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the foure Angels were loosed, which were prepared
for an houre, and a day, and a moneth,
and a yeere, for to slay the third part of men.

This means "the appropriate time" but is said four times
(they didn't have highlighters back then).

Mat 25:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day, nor the houre, wherein the Sonne of man commeth.

This means you don't know the appropriate time (the time
is set twice to add emphesis). Sorry, if you know the
year and month then you make Christ to be a liar.
Of course, anybody can guess :D

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by kubel:
I think its foolish to try to predict the rapture (or tribulation, depending on what you believe will happen first). People have been trying to for years, and they are still all wrong. What makes your prediction any better than theirs? Amen, Sibling Kubel -- preach it!

I liked the prediciton of wandering preacher
Vincent Ferrer (c1350-1419) who predicted
in 1399 that because there
are 2537 verses in the Psalns that the world would
end in 1399+2537 = AD 3936. This is a good prediction.
The predictor will be dead safely before that time ;)

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
After I got saved and before I had a Bible I knew the year, with Scriptural confirmation coming after I got saved. You want to know what Scriptures? Yes

[prophecynut]

Kubel
What makes your prediction any better than theirs?
I don't have a prediction, somebody gave one long time ago.


So far Hillclimber your responses have been negative, what makes you think God will allow you to understand when scholars and theologians are at a loss?

I will e-mail them to you, but you'll need a big change of attitude for you to embrace these scriptures.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

Why not post them here for all to see??

[billwald]

Most "experts" say the world will end or change greatly in 2012, the end of the Mayan calender. The Mayans got their info from the space aliens. &lt;G&gt;

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by billwald:
Most "experts" say the world will end or change greatly in 2012, the end of the Mayan calender. The Mayans got their info from the space aliens. &lt;G&gt;

Oh yes, I recently heard this on "Coast to Coast", at least the part about 2012, although there's plenty about aliens on that show too! ;)
Amazing what you can learn when you're awake late at night!

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Kubel
What makes your prediction any better than theirs?
I don't have a prediction, somebody gave one long time ago.


So far Hillclimber your responses have been negative, what makes you think God will allow you to understand when scholars and theologians are at a loss?

I will e-mail them to you, but you'll need a big change of attitude for you to embrace these scriptures. </font>[/QUOTE]Why does God give yu special insight, and to no one else? I would think that if He is showing you something special, it would resonate with at least some scholars or theologians, else what is the point of his revelation?

Thank you for your email, I have as yet not gone through it, but will this AM, if possible.

[prophecynut]

God has chosen me to receive "special insight" into the prophetic Word just like he has chosen me to know Christ, I take no credit for either one. In time it will resonate with qualified personnel who will spearhead its publication.

Why is it you need someone of authority to tell you the truth, aren't you a Berean?

As I've told you before, one person at the GARBC church I attend accepts 100% the same information I've sent you, and he doesn't have degrees or alphabets attached to his name. So does our pastor but he's too chicken to acknowledge it.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Ed Edwards]

The spelling is so bad I can't even read what I wrote????

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

I liked the prediciton of wandering preacher
Vincent Ferrer (c1350-1419) who predicted
in 1399 that because there
are 2537 verses in the Psalms that the world would
end in 1399+2537 = AD 3936. This is a good prediction.
The predictor will be dead safely before that time ;)

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

P-nut said:In time it will resonate with qualified personnel who will spearhead its publication.

```````````````````````````

So I take it that you are publishing a book, to make money on Gods Word??

Tam

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
God has chosen me to receive "special insight" into the prophetic Word just like he has chosen me to know Christ, I take no credit for either one. In time it will resonate with qualified personnel who will spearhead its publication.

Why is it you need someone of authority to tell you the truth, aren't you a Berean?

As I've told you before, one person at the GARBC church I attend accepts 100% the same information I've sent you, and he doesn't have degrees or alphabets attached to his name. So does our pastor but he's too chicken to acknowledge it.

Let me know if you have any questions. What true prophet of God would publically call his pastor a chicken?

[music4Him]

quote by prophecynut:
As I've told you before, one person at the GARBC church I attend accepts 100% the same information I've sent you, and he doesn't have degrees or alphabets attached to his name. So does our pastor but he's too chicken to acknowledge it.

I am really concerned for you P-nut.
If you would please concider what you just said in your last post. "One man accepts it". Do you mean out of the whole church? If the date you project held water then more than two in GARBC would jump in and say YEAH! Then you say "the pastor also accepts your theory, but is too chicken to admit it". You just called your pastor a chicken! WHich this raises another question.... if your pastor won't admit it how do you know? Are you a mind reader too? Please step back and reavauate what the bible is saying and what you are saying. :(

Peace
&lt;'JC&gt;&lt;

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by C4K:
[What true prophet of God would publically call his pastor a chicken? I could of been tactful in my response and say he lacked the courage. If it bothers you that much you have my permission to change it.

[prophecynut]

music4Him

The person who accepts my calling in Christ and the knowledge I have is the one who invited me to this GARBC church. From the beginning he was very receptive to what I had to say about prophecy and current trends in the world. Most of the information I've given to my friend has been conveyed to the Pastor besides what I've given him. This I know because of the Pastor's reactions around me and his messages from the pulpit. I don't need words from someone to known what they are thinking, its been that way since knowing God.

This same information was sent to the Council of Eighteen of GARBC before their annual conference in Lakeland, Florida June of this year in which the Pastor attended. From the Pastor's reactions and remarks this information was discussed among them yet I've haven't received any feed back.

[Claudia_T]

It's enough to know the second coming of Christ is NEAR. If you knew that it was 5 years from now, if you knew it was 20 years from now, or if you knew it was tomorrow, you should in ANY case be preparing for it by depending upon the merits of Jesus, claiming the promises and power of God and getting rid of sin in your life, and spreading the Gospel message to others who are in darkness.

The motivation for doing this shouldnt be fear, it should be love.

And besides that, remember the parable of the man who was building more and more barns to store his stuff. His life was taken from him that very night. Any one of us could lose our lives tomorrow, tonight... next week... and then as far as our sould is concerned it wont matter if the second coming of Christ is 20 years from now, now will it?

We have been living in the end times for a long time now. "The Hour of His Judgment IS COME" Revelation 14:7 and your big concern ought to be not exactly WHEN Jesus will come, but instead to be ready to face God with a clear conscience and to be one of His true followers in this group who are not going to receive the Mark of the Beast:
Revelation 14:12: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Your focus is in the wrong place.

Claudia

[Claudia_T]

The Beast of Revelation
Bible Prophecy: Protestantism Unites with the Papacy
--And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Rev. 17:12, 13. As we approach the last crisis, it is of vital moment that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses.

What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath.

"These have one mind." There will be a universal bond of union, one great harmony, a confederacy of Satan's forces. "And shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Thus is manifested the same arbitrary, oppressive power against religious liberty, freedom to worship God according to the dictates of conscience, as was manifested by the papacy, when in the past it persecuted those who dared to refuse to conform with the religious rites and ceremonies of Romanism.

In the warfare to be waged in the last days there will be united, in opposition to God's people, all the corrupt powers that have apostatized from allegiance to the law of Jehovah. In this warfare the Sabbath of the fourth commandment will be the great point at issue; for in the Sabbath commandment the great Lawgiver identifies Himself as the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.

I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Rev. 13:3. In homage to the Papacy the United States will not be alone. The influence of Rome in the countries that once acknowledged her dominion, is still far from being destroyed.

In the last conflict the Sabbath will be the special point of controversy throughout all Christendom. Secular rulers and religious leaders will unite to enforce the observance of the Sunday; and as milder measures fail, the most oppressive laws will be enacted. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to an institution of the church and a law of the land ought not to be tolerated. . . . Romanism in the Old World, and apostate Protestantism in the New, will pursue a similar course toward those who honor the divine precepts.

The so-called Christian world is to be the theater of great and decisive actions. Men in authority will enact laws controlling the conscience, after the example of the Papacy. Babylon will make all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Every nation will be involved. [Rev. 18:3-7 quoted.]

The warning of the third angel [of Revelation 14] . . . is represented in the prophecy as being proclaimed with a loud voice, by an angel flying in the midst of heaven; and it will command the attention of the world.

In the issue of the contest all Christendom will be divided into two great classes--those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. Although church and state will unite their power to compel "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" (Revelation 13:16), to receive "the mark of the beast," yet the people of God will not receive it. The prophet of Patmos beholds "them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" and singing the song of Moses and the Lamb. Revelation 15:2, 3.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Rev. 18:4. In the last work for the warning of the world, two distinct calls are made to the churches. The second angel's message is, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." And in the loud cry of the third angel's message a voice is heard from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."

As God called the children of Israel out of Egypt, that they might keep His Sabbath, so He calls His people out of Babylon, that they may not worship the beast or his image. . . .

After the truth has been proclaimed as a witness to all nations, every conceivable power of evil will be set in operation, and minds will be confused by many voices crying, "Lo, here is Christ, Lo, He is there. This is the truth, I have the message from God, He has sent me with great light." Then there will be a removing of the landmarks, and an attempt to tear down the pillars of our faith. A more decided effort will be made to exalt the false sabbath, and to cast contempt upon God Himself by supplanting the day He has blessed and sanctified. This false sabbath is to be enforced by an oppressive law. . . . But while Satan works with his lying wonders, the time will be fulfilled foretold in the Revelation, and the mighty angel that shall lighten the earth with his glory, will proclaim the fall of Babylon, and call upon God's people to forsake her.

When do her sins reach unto heaven? When the law of God is finally made void by legislation. Then the extremity of God's people is His opportunity to show who is the governor of heaven and earth. As a Satanic power is stirring up the elements from beneath, God will send light and power to His people, that the message of truth may be proclaimed to all the world.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev. 16:13, 14. By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. . . .

Papists, Protestants, and worldling will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium.

When our nation [the United States] shall so abjure the principles of its government as to enact a Sunday law, Protestantism will in this act join hands with popery; it will be nothing else than giving life to the tyranny which has long been eagerly watching its opportunity to spring again into active despotism.

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast. Rev. 13:4. "He had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Though professing to be followers of the Lamb of God, men become imbued with the spirit of the dragon. They profess to be meek and humble but they speak and legislate with the spirit of Satan, showing by their actions that they are the opposite of what they profess to be. This lamb-like power unites with the dragon in making war upon those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And Satan unites with Protestants and Papists, acting in consort with them as the god of this world, dictating to men as if they were the subjects of his kingdom, to be handled and governed and controlled as he pleases. If men will not agree to trample under foot the commandments of God, the spirit of the dragon is revealed. They are imprisoned, brought before councils, and fined. "He causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads." "He had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Thus Satan usurps the prerogatives of Jehovah. The man of sin sits in the seat of God, proclaiming himself to be God, and acting above God.

There is a marked contrast between those who bear the seal of God and those who worship the beast and his image. The Lord's faithful servants will receive the bitterest persecution from false teachers, who will not hear the word of God, and who prepare stumbling blocks to put in the way of those who would hear. But God's people are not to fear. Satan cannot go beyond his limit. The Lord will be the defense of His people. He regards the injury done to His servants for the truth's sake as done to Himself. When the last decision has been made, when all have taken sides, either for Christ and the commandments or for the great apostate, God will arise in His power, and the mouths of those who have blasphemed against Him will be forever stopped. Every opposing power will receive its punishment


SOURCE (http://www.ellenwhite.com/devotional/mar/07_01.asp)

[ September 19, 2005, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]

[music4Him]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
music4Him

The person who accepts my calling in Christ and the knowledge I have is the one who invited me to this GARBC church. From the beginning he was very receptive to what I had to say about prophecy and current trends in the world. Most of the information I've given to my friend has been conveyed to the Pastor besides what I've given him. This I know because of the Pastor's reactions around me and his messages from the pulpit. I don't need words from someone to known what they are thinking, its been that way since knowing God.

This same information was sent to the Council of Eighteen of GARBC before their annual conference in Lakeland, Florida June of this year in which the Pastor attended. From the Pastor's reactions and remarks this information was discussed among them yet I've haven't received any feed back. Just a question P-nut..... Do you belive in all nine of the gifts of the Spirit spoken of in 1Cor.12?

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
[What true prophet of God would publically call his pastor a chicken? I could of been tactful in my response and say he lacked the courage. If it bothers you that much you have my permission to change it. </font>[/QUOTE]You are the one who called your own pastor a chicken. Even if you have done the right thing and told him the same you have no business posting that in public.

Would a true prophet dishonour his own pastor so?

[prophecynut]

Anymore comments on chip implants and the Antichrist?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Anymore comments on chip implants and the Antichrist? Same answer as last time:

None. That's because there's no scriptural correlation. Speculative, yes; scriptural no.

[tamborine lady]

graemlins/type.gif

BUMP

P-nut said:In time it will resonate with qualified personnel who will spearhead its publication.

```````````````````````````

So I take it that you are publishing a book, to make money on Gods Word??

Tam

[C4K]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Anymore comments on chip implants and the Antichrist? There is no Scriptural connexion - any comment is totally conjecture.