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Brian30755
12-13-2005, 01:35 AM
I think it is safe to say that there is no one in Hell today. Nobody is there because Hell is the final place for those who have rejected Christ and is the place to which they are assigned after the Great White Throne Judgment. After the day of final judgment, then Hell receives its population.

Link (http://christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-occupants.html)

Hope of Glory
12-13-2005, 02:53 AM
Since hell is simply the grave, then there are billions of people there. If you're referring to the lake of fire, no one will be there for a while.

Me4Him
12-13-2005, 07:06 AM
When Jesus returns to the earth, "First Resurrection", the "ANGEL REAPERS", gather all the "UNSAVED" and "Cast them into the "FIRE". (Wheat/Tares separation)

Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: (HELL) there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

After which the "Mill Reign" will begin, Satan bound up, after which he is turned loose, then the GWT Judgement, those "IN HELL" are "Resurrected" "FROM HELL" to stand Judgment.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Are there people "IN HELL" "TODAY", Certainly.

Shiloh
12-13-2005, 07:54 AM
Brian, you should read your Bible. Try looking in Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments" Every person that has died without Christ is in hell now.

Hope of Glory
12-13-2005, 01:35 PM
The parables of Matthew 13 deals only with saved people. We've just started as series on that in our evening Bible studies.

"Hell" is just the grave. Jesus went to hell when he died. I certainly don't think he went to the lake of fire, where the lost will one day be sent.

gb93433
12-13-2005, 01:48 PM
Sheol and Hades is the grave. Certainly it leads to hell after death. Gehenna is hell.

Luke 16:23 uses the word Hades.

Brian30755
12-13-2005, 08:56 PM
Okay, I'm confused. If "Hell" is simply the grave, then what is the place of eternal separation from God, the lake of fire, called?

Also, don't you think most people are under the impression that Hell is the lake of fire where those who die without knowing Jesus as their savior will spend eternity?

BobRyan
12-13-2005, 10:25 PM
The lake of fire is called "The Lake of Fire" - but in MAtt 10 it is called "fiery Hell".

Other terms translated as the english word "Hell" (Hades and Sheol) are the grave.

In Luke 16 all the saints live in Abraham's lap.

Hopefully we are not going to that parable for Geography.

In Christ,

Bob

Hope of Glory
12-13-2005, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Brian30755:
Okay, I'm confused. If "Hell" is simply the grave, then what is the place of eternal separation from God, the lake of fire, called?

Also, don't you think most people are under the impression that Hell is the lake of fire where those who die without knowing Jesus as their savior will spend eternity? The lake of fire is called the "lake of fire".

Yes, most people are under the impression that the word "hell" refers to the lake of fire. That would be fine, except for all the other words, such as hades, sheol, and gehenna that are translated as (or considered as) hell. This creates a lot of confusion, and makes people think that parables are referring to lost people when they're not.

If I'm teaching to a group that knows the difference between "hell" and the "lake of fire", I will often use the word "hell", because they know the difference. (I'm more likely to use the original words otherwis.) However, if I'm speaking to a group that doesn't know, I will specify "lake of fire" and remind them (or point out) that "hell" is not the "lake of fire".

wopik
12-24-2005, 04:06 AM
The English translators of the Bible used the English word "hell" for three different Greek words - in the NT:


hades (hell) - the grave

gehenna (hell) - the firey place

tartaroo (hell) (http://www.theopedia.com/Tartaroo) - This word occurs only one time in the New Testament, 2 Peter 2:4, and is translated as “hell”. It seems to be a place of confindment.


tartaroo is linked

http://www.theopedia.com/Gehenna


http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.show/name/0504ra.htm

[ December 24, 2005, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: wopik ]

Trotter
12-24-2005, 04:25 AM
Any and all who died without Jesus Christ as their personal Savior are in Hell right now.

Sheol is from the Old Testament, which was before the New. Sheol is the grave, a holding place for the dead until Christ came (personal interpretation there).

Hades = Gehenna = Tartaroo = Hell. Hell is not eternal, but rather a temporary repository for those who had not accepted Christ free offer.
Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.

I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:11-15 HCSB)
The lake of fire, on the other hand, IS eternal. No "POOF" and you're vaporized- never to suffer again. There is no reprieve. God's eternal justice calls for no less.

In Christ,
Trotter

Born Again Catholic
12-24-2005, 11:03 AM
If there is no one in burning in hell right now, Jesus's parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man is reduced to non-sense.

Hell is real folks and it is poulated right now.

Ray Berrian
12-24-2005, 01:57 PM
Born Again Catholic,

You said, 'If there is no one in burning in hell right now, Jesus's parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man is reduced to non-sense.

Hell is real folks and it is poulated right now.'

[Quote} Yes, I agree with you! [/Quote].

Rev. Berrian, Th.D.

wopik
12-24-2005, 05:39 PM
If there is no one in burning in hell right now, Jesus's parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man is reduced to non-sense.

Hell is real folks and it is poulated right now. Most likely, the rich man opened his eyes up when he was being resurrected out of his GRAVE (hades, hell).

For Daniel (12:2) and Paul both say "the dead in Christ" are ASLEEP - EYES CLOSED.


The rich man, in his GRAVE "lift up his eyes" (resurrection) and knew he was doomed to be thrown in to the lake of fire.


HE SEES ABRAHAM........

The rich man "lift up his EYES... and SEES Abraham. . ."
even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, "You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom, and you yourselves cast out" ( Luke 13:28).

That is the "great gulf" that exists between the rich man and Abraham.

wopik
12-24-2005, 05:55 PM
Peter said: "He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption" (Acts 2:31).

Jesus, too, died and was buried. And in "hell" - the grave - He too lifted up His eyes — when He was resurrected!

DHK
12-24-2005, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by wopik:
Most likely, the rich man opened his eyes up when he was being resurrected out of his GRAVE (hades, hell).

For Daniel (12:2) and Paul both say "the dead in Christ" are ASLEEP - EYES CLOSED.How does the rich man see from a box, a coffin, in the grave, Lazarus, and from that box feel the torment of those flames such that he cries out to Abraham: "Send Lazarus that he may cool the tip of my tongue with water; for I am tormented in this flame." All that from a box in the grave in the earth?? :rolleyes:
The resurrection had not, and still has not happened. This has notthing to do with the resurrection. His eyes are very much open, and he is very musch alive--being tormented in this flame, as he will be forevermore, just as Jesus said he would. The word "sleep" is simply another word for death.

Paul was rebuking the Corinthians for abusing the Lord's Table. What did he say to them in 1Cor.11:30?
"For this cause many among you are sick and weak, and many of you sleep!
Sleep is death.
Jesus said to his disciples concerning Lazarus, knowing that Lazarus had died: "Lazarus sleeps." Then he plainly told them that Lazarus was dead.
He went to raise the dead, the one who "was asleep."

Hell still exists. Paradise doesn't. Jesus led those "held captive in paradise" free when he rose from the dead. But Hell still exists. In Rev.20, it tells us that Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That will be the final sentence of the unsaved. Hell is a temporary suffering place of those that reject Christ. Yet it is still a place of torment as described by the rich man. It one day will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, not much different in nature.
DHK

Ray Berrian
12-24-2005, 11:51 PM
DHK,

Thank the Lord that finally, I read a post that you wrote that I agree with 100%. See, I am not an obstreperous older man.

Merry Christmas in Canada to my Christian brother and his family.

"Ray"

BobRyan
12-25-2005, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by DHK:
Paul was rebuking the Corinthians for abusing the Lord's Table. What did he say to them in 1Cor.11:30?
"For this cause many among you are sick and weak, and many of you sleep!
Sleep is death.
Jesus said to his disciples concerning Lazarus, knowing that Lazarus had died: "Lazarus sleeps." Then he plainly told them that Lazarus was dead.
He went to raise the dead, the one who "was asleep."
So you admit that the saints who are "the dead in Christ" are in fact "asleep"??

That is pretty interesting.

It must be "Christmas"

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan
12-25-2005, 01:03 AM
Jesus led those "held captive in paradise" free when he rose from the dead. But Hell still exists.It would be nice to find a quote saying that those "in paradise were set free" or "Saints were captive in paradise" or ...

Hades - Sheol (The Grave) still exists - no doubt about that.

David went there --

According to Acts 2 - he is still there.

In Christ,

Bob

DHK
12-25-2005, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by BobRyan:
So you admit that the saints who are "the dead in Christ" are in fact "asleep"??

That is pretty interesting.

It must be "Christmas"

In Christ,

Bob No, I didn't say that. And you know I didn't.
I never said that the dead were sleeping in the sense that the SDA's believe it to be.
Sleep and death are used synonymously in these verses that I quoted to mean death, not sleep. The meaning is death. Sleep means death, not the other way around. The emphasis is on the death.
Death is separation.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
DHK

DHK
12-25-2005, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jesus led those "held captive in paradise" free when he rose from the dead. But Hell still exists.It would be nice to find a quote saying that those "in paradise were set free" or "Saints were captive in paradise" or ...
</font>[/QUOTE]Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The expression "captivity captive" is an expression referring to those saints in paradise that he went down and delivered from Paradise and led them right to the presence of God Himself in heaven. Thus there is now no two compartments of sheol: paradise and hell: but only one--Hell. All the saved: Old Testament and New, are now in Heaven. The unsaved go straight to Hell and will remain there awaiting their final sentence to be condemned once and forever in the lake of fire where:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Ray Berrian
12-25-2005, 06:25 AM
Bob Ryan,

The word asleep in the N.T. is an euphemism meaning that a Christian is at rest and at peace in the Lord.

At death we immediately go into the Presence of Jesus in Heaven [II Cor. 5:8 & Philippians 1:23]. There is no waiting for hundreds of years to see the Lord Jesus on His throne.

King David has not had to wait 3,005 plus years to see the Lord in Heaven. Remember Moses and Elijah came out of Heaven, briefly, at the time of the Transfiguration.

hillclimber
12-25-2005, 02:15 PM
DHK, it is a pleasure to see such understanding from saints in our neighbor to the north.

Merry Christmas.

BobRyan
12-28-2005, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bob Ryan,

The word asleep in the N.T. is an euphemism meaning that a Christian is at rest and at peace in the Lord.
So then you also believe in soul sleep or "person sleep" as you apply the term "Sleep" to the "person" just as scripture does?

Glad to hear it.


Remember Moses and Elijah came out of Heaven, briefly, at the time of the Transfiguration. Elijah never died - he was "Taken to heaven" by God - bodily.

Moses died but the book "The Assumption of Moses" is quoted by Jude and may in fact have some truth in it when it speaks of the his bodily assumption into heaven after death.

In neither case are these two described as "asleep on the Mt of transfiguration".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan
12-28-2005, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by BobRyan:
It would be nice to find a quote saying that those "in paradise were set free" or "Saints were captive in paradise" or ...
Originally posted by DHK:
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The expression "captivity captive" is an expression referring to those saints
Indeed - the saints raised in the resurrection of Matt 27.

But no mention of "paradise" in Eph 4.

No mention of "captive in paradise" in Eph 4.

No mention of "Set free FROM paradise" in Eph 4.

In 2 Cor 12 Paul is taken TO paradise (so not a place to be captive or from which to be SET FREE).

In Rev 2 the tree of life is IN paradise and this is the promised REWARD of NT saints (so it is indeed STILL a good place to go TO)

In Luke 23 Christ offers paradise to the theif as a REWARD or PROMISE in answer to the request "Remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom" - Christ says to the theif that very day "I say to you today you WILL be WITH ME in Paradise"


in paradise that he went down and delivered from ParadiseThere is no statement in all of scripture saying "Christ went DOWN TO PARADISE".

There is no statement in all of scripture that says "ANYONE wants/needs/is delivered FROM Paradise".

DHK said
Thus there is now no two compartments of sheol: paradise and hell:
There is no statement in all of scripture that says "Sheol has two compartments".

There is no statement in all of scripture that says "Sheol no longer has two compartments".

How can everything said in your post be based on "no text in all of scripture actually says that"???

Answer: Tradition.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan
12-28-2005, 11:17 AM
There are in fact only THREE texts in all of scripture that mention paradise and I gave DHK ALL THREE in my previous post.

So where does the imaginative story about "Paradise on wheels scooting all over the cosmos" come from? Or Saints "captive in Paradise and wanting to be let out"??

IT is pure tradition.

In Christ,

Bob

standingfirminChrist
12-28-2005, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Brian30755:
I think it is safe to say that there is no one in Hell today. Nobody is there because Hell is the final place for those who have rejected Christ and is the place to which they are assigned after the Great White Throne Judgment. After the day of final judgment, then Hell receives its population.
The problem with your quote there Brian, is this....

Revelation speaks of hell and the lake of fire as being two different places. Hell is said to deliver up it's dead to be judged. Then, death and hell are cast in the lake of fire. This is the second death.

After that, the unbeliever (who at this point truly has become a believer) is cast into the lake of fire.

Johnv
12-28-2005, 03:25 PM
It's my understanding from studying scripture that all who have been presented with the Gospel, and have refused to accepted it, are in Hell today. I can find no scripture which suggests that they are not. If I'm wrong, I welcome the posting of scripture to the contrary.

standingfirminChrist
12-28-2005, 03:29 PM
Hell is not simply 'the grave'. For the Word of God tells us when the rich man died, he lifted up his eyes tormented in flames.

There is a burning in hell, and I believe it is a literal burning. Mussolini, in his last breath on this earth begged someone to pull his feet out of the fire for they were burning.

Johnv
12-28-2005, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Hell is not simply 'the grave'. For the Word of God tells us when the rich man died, he lifted up his eyes tormented in flames.Yes and no. You're correct that the Christian concept of Hell is not simply "the grave". "The Grave" is Hades/Sheol (in greek and Hebrew respectively). However, in the parable of the rich man, the man went to hades, not Hell. The parable is juxtaposing the comfort of being in Abraham's bosom and the discomfort of being apart from it. And the juxtaposition of the parable appears to be addressing righteous behavior, not salvation as we know it.

Other than that minor point, I agree with you pretty much on this topic.

PamelaK
12-28-2005, 03:58 PM
I have always been taught/read that this is a literal event Jesus told, not a parable, since a name (Lazarus) is mentioned. I also would not say that this is not speaking of salvation, since righteous behaviour has never gotten anyone to heaven. Just a couple comments I wanted to make.

standingfirminChrist
12-28-2005, 04:04 PM
The story of the rich man and Lazarus was not a parable. Jesus actually named a person in the story.

He did not name people in His parables.

BobRyan
12-29-2005, 10:07 AM
In the parable of the Rich man and lazarus -

#1. All the dead saints sit in Abraham's lap!
#2. Abraham is "in charge of the dead" he never asks God for a decision.
#3. The dead in hell can pray-to/appeal-to Abraham directly.
#4. Abraham is asked to send someone from the dead as a witness - to rise from the dead (AS IF) he could.

#5. The rich man "has a tounge in hell" and wants some water to solve the problem of burning.

There are many other indicators about WHY this parable would appeal to Jewish leaders (Abraham in charge of all the dead saints for example) but as Christ POINTS OUT in the parable "If someone will not listen to Moses and the prophets for doctrinal instruction - then neither will they listen to the one who rose from the dead".

A very instructive parable.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan
12-29-2005, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Johnv:
It's my understanding from studying scripture that all who have been presented with the Gospel, and have refused to accepted it, are in Hell today. I can find no scripture which suggests that they are not. If I'm wrong, I welcome the posting of scripture to the contrary. Sheol and Hades are the grave and in some translations in English say "hell" for that those words. ALL the dead are there today.

Fiery Ghenna (also translated hell in some versions) is fiery hell.

Nobody is there today.

Johnv
12-29-2005, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
The story of the rich man and Lazarus was not a parable. Jesus actually named a person in the story.

He did not name people in His parables. That's up for debate. We cannot know for sure. It reads as a parable, and, imo, it likely was one. There doesn't appear to be any attempt to present it as factual. However, I certainly understand why people believe it might have been a real occurrence.

In the grand scope, whether it was a parable or an account really isn't important to what Jesus was saying. The message that Jesus was delivering is what is important.

Ray Berrian
12-30-2005, 12:42 AM
Parables never use personal names.

The rich man and Lazarus were real persons with different destinies.

wopik
12-30-2005, 04:39 AM
the story indicates that the rich man arose in a resurrection and saw Abraham in the Kingdom, and he himself (rich man) getting ready to be thrown into the lake of fire.


The rich man "lift up his EYES... and SEES Abraham. . ."
even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, "You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom, and you yourselves cast out" ( Luke 13:28).

Johnv
12-30-2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Parables never use personal names.Says who? I can't find that rule in "Parables for Dummies" anywhere.

Sorry, but it reads like all the other parables, and it likely is. Though, while I disagree with those who believe it might not be a parable, I certainly see why they believe this.

The truth is, we simply don't know for sure, either way, and whether it's a parable or account is quite unimportant. No reason to make this issue a doctrinal one.

Keith M
12-30-2005, 06:59 PM
I researched this very topic 3 years ago. I hope this helps.

Gehenna, or Hinnom, is a valley south of Jerusalem where the backslidden, idolatrous Jews at certain points in history sacrificed their children by fire to Molech and Baal. This valley later became the "garbage dump" of Jerusalem, and it is said that fires were kept constantly burning for the destruction of the filth thrown there. In most of its occurrences in the NT, Gehenna refers to the place of the lost.

Hades is the Greek word used to denote the unseen place of the dead. All the dead go there. However, there is a separation in that the evil dead are in torment while the righteous dead are not (see Luke 16:19-31).

Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead. As with the Greek Hades, all the dead go there. It is the abode of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead (Psalms 9:17; 16:10; 30:3; 31:17 are just a few references). Sheol is described as dark (Job 10:21-22), deep (Job 11:8 ) and barred (Job 17:16). The dead also go down to it (Numbers 16:30, 33; Ezekiel 31:15-17).

Did Christ descend into hell? The answer is both yes and no. It depends on your definition of hell. Jesus did go to the grave as in the abode of the dead. While on the Cross, Jesus promised the penitent thief they would be together in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). I have found no evidence to support the theory that Jesus went into the part of Sheol/Hades where the wicked are tormented.

Christ was the first to break the bonds of death and the grave. He rose from the grave. Many think that when Christ conquered the bonds of death and the grave that He led the righteous dead to another place prepared for them. Christ had to be the first to conquer the grave or else His death and resurrection would not have been needed in order for OT saints to be rewarded. God had something better in mind for them (and for us), so the righteous dead were held until Christ came to free them (see Psalms 68:18 and Ephesians 4:7-10).

If, in fact, there is a new paradise where the righteous dead go, where is it? Many of today's fundamentalist Christian churches teach that it is "up" but can't say exactly where it is. The fact that Jesus ascended when He left the earth (Luke 24:50-53; Acts 1:9-11) gives credence to this idea. In John 6:62 Jesus is spoken of as ascending. Romans 10:6 speaks of ascending into heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:4 speaks of being caught up to Paradise. And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 Paul speaks of being "well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8 NKJV), indicating that, when we die in Christ, we go to be with Him.

Many think that Christ gave a second chance to those who were lost and in the grave, but I find no evidence that this is so. Look at the story of Lazarus and the rich man once again (Luke 16:19-31). Did this event actually occur? I don't know. But whether Lazarus and the rich man were real people or not doesn't really matter. What does matter is the truth that Jesus taught through this parable. Once we have passed from this life into eternity, there is absolutely NO WAY to go from one place to the other. If we could go from one place to the other, everyone who ends up in torment would elect to go away from that terrible place. Everyone. Period. And if this were an option, it would mean that no one would receive their "just deserts" after death. It would make Christ's death and resurrection of absolutely no consequence. And since there is no way for us to go from one place to the other after we die, the ideas of purgatory and praying the dead "out of hell" are soundly disproved.

There will be an eternal "lake of fire" created at a later date. The grave (Sheol/Hades) will give up its dead so that they may face the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the world. Those whose names are not written in "the Lamb's Book of Life" will be sentenced to an eternity of fire and torment along with Satan and the fallen angels (Revelation 20:11-15). This place does not exist yet, but its permanence and the scope of its torment are a future reality.

standingfirminChrist
01-02-2006, 10:30 AM
Another popular belief that Jesus wrestled with satan for the keys of death and hell has no biblical proof.

In Revelation 1, the Lord tells us He has the 'keys of death and hell', but nowhere in scripture can we find that He was ever without them.

wopik
01-07-2006, 05:43 PM
Topic: Is there anyone in Hell today? hell (hades,gk) the GRAVE, yes.

hell (gehenna,gk) the FIRE, no.

standingfirminChrist
01-07-2006, 05:51 PM
ah, but wopik,

what do we do with the story of the rich man who died and opened up his eyes in hell, in torment and in flames? This appears to be an immediate event upon death.

Hope of Glory
01-07-2006, 06:08 PM
Hmmm... Does fire always represent the lake of fire?

I'm assuming that you are again referring to the lake of fire as "hell".

partialrapture
01-07-2006, 06:18 PM
This is seems like a good place to put in my two cents
I would say... That yes indeed there are people in hell right now(God forbid I smile) burning in literal fire(I'm a fundamentalist) and in the grave at the same time. I hold that hell is the grave or heart of the earth with fire, depending on the context, its usually with fire involved. Hell is not at all the place of endless punishment(thankyou HopeofGlory) Hell will one day deliver up all that are in it first and then be placed into the Lake of fire
I HOPE THAT I WILL NEVER BE IN HELL AND I HOPE THE LAKE OF FIRE WILL NOT HURT ME...
May God do a mighty, merciful work

standingfirminChrist
01-07-2006, 06:32 PM
Hope,

Again, the lake of fire is not hell. Although, hell does indeed have fire in it. The Word of God tells us 'The rich man died also, and in hell he lifted his eyes being in torment... for I am tormented in this flame. There is indeed fire in hell. In this instance, it was not the lake of fire,

Hope of Glory
01-07-2006, 06:39 PM
Would you care to explain what you mean by "in this instance"? Does "hell" ever refer to the lake of fire in the Bible?

standingfirminChrist
01-07-2006, 10:04 PM
In this instance, the instance of the rich man. He was in a fire, tormented in a flame.

Hope of Glory
01-07-2006, 10:34 PM
That's not the question that I asked. I asked, "Doe "hell" ever refer to the lake of fire in the Bible? If so, where?

standingfirminChrist
01-07-2006, 10:38 PM
I have already answered that question. Hell is not the lake of fire. Death and Hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

D28guy
01-07-2006, 11:12 PM
My 2 cents worth...

There are a lot of different views on this, and I dont fall out of fellowship with anyone if they disagree of course.

Personally, I do not believe anyone is Hell right now. Those who have died outside of Christ are sealed in their lost condition, and that of course can not be changed, but they are not *literally* in "Hell".

They are in existance in a place called Hades which I have heard referred to as a sort of "holding pen" until the end times.

After the Great White Throne judgement the lost will be thrown into Hell.

Sadly,

Mike

Hope of Glory
01-07-2006, 11:48 PM
After the Great White Throne judgment, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Most people refer to the lake of fire as "hell", and that's why I was asking for the clarification.

D28guy
01-08-2006, 12:49 AM
"After the Great White Throne judgment, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Most people refer to the lake of fire as "hell", and that's why I was asking for the clarification."Oh.

Well, I've always considered the lake of fire spoken of in Revelation to be hell. I've heard it taught that way many times. I mean, if Satan, his demons, and the lost are consigned to that place, it would seem logical for that to be hell, would it not?

Mike

Hope of Glory
01-08-2006, 01:06 AM
There are several different words translated as "hell" in the KJV, but AFIK, the "lake of fire" is never translated as such. However, so many people have come to associate the two together.

partialrapture
01-08-2006, 01:07 AM
I have 2 more cents...
why whenever Jesus mention hell he often would say hell FIRE or for some hades fire
(Mark 9,Matthew 5)
I find this to be an important topic because Jesus did, and because it is a powerful and Godly motivation to bring God honor and glory threw obediance. The fear of the Lord, not just some reverential awe, but fear, "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men"(1Cor 5:11)
It is said that Noah moved with fear...(Heb 11)
what did he fear? God's judgment.
but if we belittle of degrade the wages of sin you will have the revival we have today a revival of flesh, the devil and sin.

They say "oh...but God's love is what motivates me" well, I would on many occasions agree, but lest face it, did your love for your mother and father always bring obediance? or did sometimes the rod help you along?

Besides how I may try to reason it all together, God is shy about this topic, he tells us plainly just ask the new ager what God's word says about hell, they dont believe though.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

May God bless his word in your hearts smile.gif

Hope of Glory
01-08-2006, 01:45 AM
If the wages of sin are death, what are the wages of righteous living?

D28guy
01-08-2006, 01:48 AM
partialrapture,

"I have 2 more cents...
why whenever Jesus mention hell he often would say hell FIRE or for some hades fire
(Mark 9,Matthew 5)
I find this to be an important topic because Jesus did, and because it is a powerful and Godly motivation to bring God honor and glory threw obediance. The fear of the Lord, not just some reverential awe, but fear, "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men"(1Cor 5:11)
It is said that Noah moved with fear...(Heb 11)
what did he fear? God's judgment. but if we belittle of degrade the wages of sin you will have the revival we have today a revival of flesh, the devil and sin.

They say "oh...but God's love is what motivates me" well, I would on many occasions agree, but lest face it, did your love for your mother and father always bring obediance? or did sometimes the rod help you along?
Well, as one who is thoroughly and overwhelmingly convinced of the absolute truth of our complete eternal security as Gods children, I dont see hell as having any part at all regarding the "fear of the Lord" you speak of...for christians...as it appears you are advocating.

Hebrews of course speaks of Gods dealings with His children when they need "chastisement", but it isnt the threat of Hell. Hell has been eliminated as an option the instant we are born of the Spirit.

Its Gods chastisement in this life that He uses, and as a good Father He will do that.

The threat of hell is part of what should draw the lost to Christ. Not motivate christians in service.

Grace and peace,

Mike

standingfirminChrist
01-08-2006, 01:54 AM
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

the lake of fire cannot be hell, for hell is cast into it.

It is not the threat of hell that should draw the lost to Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

partialrapture
01-08-2006, 02:14 AM
I do advocate, but gently,that believers who are eternally secure in Christ, based on their belief in the work of Jesus for them alone, are no longer in danger of everlasting condemnation since Jesus paid that debt, BUT (here we go) God has put before HIS people (believers) a prize, an oppotunity to reign with Jesus when he fulfills the scriptures of reigning as king in the throne David
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

This I would say is the 1000 year reign in Rev. 20

I do not believe that all believers will enter into this Kingdom

1Corinthians 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul speaks of a prize and that he runs, and keeps under his body, so that he would not be a cast away...cast away?

May God bless his word graemlins/type.gif

Hope of Glory
01-08-2006, 02:20 AM
Amen, Brother Partial! (It's not Partial Brother, is it!)

To see the Kingdom, all you have to do is be born from above; all you have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus. Accept the free gift. This is accomplished by the completed work on the cross.

To enter the Kingdom, you have to do something: You have to be obedient.

Not all Christians are obedient. (Remember, God knows what's in the heart.) Many Christians live in lawlessness, or even commit suicide. This will not cause them to lose their salvation, nor is it a sign they are not saved, but it will cause them to lose out on what they could have had in the coming Kingdom!

You can lose out on the Kingdom and still be saved for the rest of eternity.

D28guy
01-08-2006, 02:58 AM
standingfirminChrist,

"Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

the lake of fire cannot be hell, for hell is cast into it."But once hell is cast into the lake of fire, whether they are different or not up to that point becomes pretty much irrelavent, wouldnt you say?

"It is not the threat of hell that should draw the lost to Christ.

John 6:44 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day'."But God can use any number of things to "draw" someone to Christ, can He not?

* The gift of eternal life

* New life, more rewarding and fullfilling, for the rest of our earthly life.

And also...

* Escaping damnation

John 16: 8-11...

(referring to the Holy Spirit)

"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of rightiousness, and of judgement.

Of sin, because they do not believe in me.

Of rightiousness, because I go to the Father and you see me no more.

And of judgement, because the ruler of this world is judged"

What would that judgement...that the Holy Spirit will convict the lost concerning...be, other then being judged and found guilty by God, and condemned?

People are in all kinds of conditions when they are lost, and might be experiencing conviction in different areas. (For me it was a combination of several)

For some, they may never really think about eternity much, but they are simply empty inside. All the things that are supposed satisfy...dont. They might be drawn mostly by Gods love and promise of a meaningful and fruitful life. For someone else, they may love their life as it is, and find it rewarding, but they become very terrified at the thought of hell. God can very well draw that one to Himself at that point, with that motivation...but also drawing then with His love.

God bless,

Mike

BobRyan
01-08-2006, 10:38 AM
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

BobRyan
01-08-2006, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Hmmm... Does fire always represent the lake of fire?

I'm assuming that you are again referring to the lake of fire as "hell". Yes it does when it is connected with Hell as in Matt 10 and "fiery Hell".

BobRyan
01-08-2006, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Parables never use personal names. Originally posted by Johnv:

Says who? I can't find that rule in "Parables for Dummies" anywhere.

Sorry, but it reads like all the other parables, and it likely is. #1. It occurs in a long string of parables in Luke.

#2. Other parables use specifics - like the trees that elect a king - specific trees and plants are mentioned. It is still a parable.

#3. In Luke 16 the problem is that after a long string of parables - the Jewish leaders 'rejected them all'. Christ then follows with a parable that they DO accept as valid!

Were this to be instead based on "hey this is a true story because I SAY it is a true story" well they already had demonstrated that they were a hostile audience disinclined to accept information on a "I say-so" basis. So Christ uses Common ground that they DO accept "Abraham in charge of all the dead saints"

partialrapture
01-08-2006, 07:29 PM
Parable or not, there is truth and reality taught,
and you will never find a parable, try i challenge, were God does use things that are real and exist
broom, corn, master, servant, silver, tares, lamps and so on...
so I conclude, since there be no other reason not to that there is a rich man in hell right now, in torment and flames, and he still desires water and some one to tell someone about that horrible place

Hope of Glory
01-08-2006, 09:28 PM
Well, what about fire when it's associated with "hell", and "hell" is not associated with the lake of fire?

standingfirminChrist
01-10-2006, 05:09 AM
As I stated before, Hell and the Lake of Fire are two different places... Revelation 20 shows Hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire. If they were one and the same place there would be no need for that verse.

wopik
01-11-2006, 11:55 PM
how can fire destroy fire ?


Rev 20:13 -- "death and hell"

Rev 20:14 -- "death and hell"


Don't you have a KJV Bible with the center margin. In Rev 20:13, there's a little letter by the word hell. I look over at the center margin to find that same letter there, and beside that letter it says, Or, the grave.


So it looks like death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire.


"The last enemy that will be destroyed is death". -- 1cor 15:26.

Hope of Glory
01-12-2006, 03:32 AM
The question was actually aimed at BobRyan, as you two have stated your position quite articulately already.

BobRyan
01-15-2006, 01:11 AM
Summary -

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell--&gt; Eternal Fire --&gt; Fire and Brimstone --&gt; Second Death (lake of fire)

1.
Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9)
The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

2.
The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):


====================================
Detail:



Fiery Hell – is in fact “eternal fire”
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Matt 18:8-9
8 "" If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9 "" If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”. So eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.


Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”


Rev 21:
8 "" But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.</font>[/QUOTE]

BobRyan
01-20-2006, 08:18 PM
Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell--&gt; Eternal Fire --&gt; Fire and Brimstone --&gt; Second Death (lake of fire)
Now come on - you have to admit - that is pretty direct!

Hope of Glory
01-20-2006, 11:43 PM
Direct, but incorrect, as sfic has shown.

BobRyan
01-21-2006, 12:30 AM
I did not see SFC respond to the specic texts I gave that "show the link" that I claim exists in the Bible.

Did those texts "dissappear anyway"??

BobRyan
01-21-2006, 12:51 AM
The term "hell" in Rev 20 is not the one that we see in Matt 10.

Here Jamieson,Fausset,Brown show that the term "Hades" is used to represent "grave" in Rev 20 not "Hell fire".



13. death and hell--Greek, "Hades." The essential identity of the dying and risen body is hereby shown; for the sea and grave give up their dead. The body that sinned or served God shall, in righteous retribution, be the body also that shall suffer or be rewarded. The "sea" may have a symbolical [CLUVER from AUGUSTINE], besides the literal meaning, as, in Re 8:8; 12:12; 13:1; 18:17, 19; so "death" and "hell" are personifications (compare Re 21:1). But the literal sense need hardly be departed from: all the different regions wherein the bodies and souls of men had been, gave them up.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020

JFB show that there is no way to equivocate between "hell" (Hades - the grave) in Rev 20 and the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10. (Though apparently SFC above would dearly love to do just that).

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown on Matt 10
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul--In Lu 12:4, "and after that have no more that they can do."
but rather fear him--In Luke (Lu 12:5) this is peculiarly solemn, "I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear," even Him
which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell--A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Lu 12:4), Jesus calls His disciples "My friends," as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=010
In Luke 12:5 Jamieson, Fausset, Brown also show that this same "Fiery hell" rather than "the grave - HADES" of Rev 20 is the focus -- Just as I did.


5. Fear Him . . . Fear Him--how striking the repetition here! Only the one fear would effectually expel the other.
after he hath killed, &c.--Learn here--(1) To play false with one's convictions to save one's life, may fail of its end after all, for God can inflict a violent death in some other and equally formidable way. (2) There is a hell, it seems, for the body as well as the soul; consequently, sufferings adapted to the one as well as the other. (3) Fear of hell is a divinely authorized and needed motive of action even to Christ's "friends." (4) As Christ's meekness and gentleness were not compromised by such harsh notes as these, so those servants of Christ lack their Master's spirit who soften down all such language to please ears "polite." (See on Mr 9:43-48).
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=012
John and Jacob Abbott point out that in Rev 20 "Hades is the grave"

http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020