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xdisciplex
03-01-2006, 03:11 AM
What do you think about HoP?

And what do you think about Bayless Conley? He makes a good impression on me. In fact there are not many american TV evangelists which make a good impression on me... :confused:

xdisciplex
03-01-2006, 03:29 AM
And what about T.D. Jakes?

I heard that his message is also pretty watered down and this is the reason why he's so famous and well liked even in the world, is this true?

Johnv
03-01-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by xdisciplex:
What do you think about HoP?I'm not a fan of the HoP. There's too little repentance preached. But I've never sen anything overtly contrary to scripture. My cousin is a church member there and he gets what he needs. It's not my cup of tea, but it may be others. Now that the senoir pastor has retired and the HoP has a fresh face, it seems to be getting a bit more salvation centered. Time will tell.
And what do you think about Bayless Conley?BC is pretty solid gospel-wise. Again, he's not quite my cup of tea, being a bit too Calvarean for me, but he seems to be on the mark.

xdisciplex
03-01-2006, 03:48 PM
Calvarean? What is that?

Johnv
03-01-2006, 03:50 PM
Reminiscent of a Calvary Chapel environment.

xdisciplex
03-01-2006, 03:55 PM
Oh, and what's so bad about the Calvary Chapel?
Do they teach something wrong?

Johnv
03-01-2006, 04:01 PM
Nothing wrong. I just don't care for the Calvary Chapel type of worship.

Just because I don't care for something, doesn't mean it's in scripturally wrong. I don't care for goat's milk, but it's not a sin to drink it.

xdisciplex
03-01-2006, 04:06 PM
What kind of worship do they have?

Johnv
03-01-2006, 04:09 PM
That's irrelevant to this topic. If you want to find out info on Calvary Chapels, visit www.capvarychapel.org (http://www.capvarychapel.org) or www.calvarychapel.com (http://www.calvarychapel.com)

If you want to discuss the CC church, it would be a good idea to start another thread.

Ray Berrian
03-02-2006, 11:39 PM
xdisciplex,

I have watched Pastor T.D. Jakes and he does not water down the message of the Gospel. He is dynamic and energetic about what he preaches. He points out the hypocrisy of many Christians and gives you the possibility of Christian growth. His messages are Bible centered. If he had a church in Lehigh Valley I sure would attend his services on a regular basis. He has spiritual substance in his sermons and not a lot of hot air as some speakers give us. His message is thought out and shows some real depth of commitment if Christians want to grow in maturity in Christ.

DHK
03-03-2006, 01:11 AM
This popular preacher, also known as "Bishop Jakes," comes from a United Pentecostal background. He pastors The Potter's House (Dallas, Texas) one of America's fastest-growing megachurches. He is also a leader and elected bishop of the "Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies," a network of Oneness Pentecostal churches - though not identified as such at the T.D. Jakes Ministries web site:http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html

Jakes is connected with the Oneness Pentecostal which believes in baptismal regeneration, a well known heresy. He holds to many other heresies as well which stem from the Oneness Pentecostals such as
"The belief that God exists in three "manifestations" which is called Sabellianism or modalism."
DHK

Ray Berrian
03-03-2006, 03:56 AM
DHK,

Many branches of the Christian Church believe in baptismal regeneration among whom are: the Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Episcopalalians, Lutherans. Even if Pastor Jakes believes in this it does not make him a non-Christian.

Many Christians believe also that the first dispensations of time God the Father created the world. Then the Son, Jesus the Messiah offered His era of time which was thirty-three years. And lastly, after His ascension the age of the Holy Spirit came into being. I know this is not accurate but many young Christians believe this is true. Most of us believe in the unity of the one Godhead, probably only because some experienced S.S. teacher, pastor, professor, or theologian explained it to us. This again, does not make a pastor a false prophet. It does, however, mean that his orthodoxy is tainted. And for many of us Pentecostalism is a plus because they do not merely 'tip the hat' if you will to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. Their pastors teach the people to respect and worship God the Spirit. Plus, they do not deny I Corinthians 12 & 14, nor do they explain these chapters away as being merely national languages. Pastor Jakes probably believe that Christ died for all sinners which places him in the truth and not like Calvinists who deny the full atonement of Jesus Christ for sinners.

As you see I have caused you to look at Pastor Jake types in a better light, than you are able to do according to your defined views in theology.

For me, only if a clergy person denies the Deity of Christ will I then call that one a false prophet. Why? Because if they deny that Jesus is Divine the are absolutely not saved [I John 4:2].

Regards,
Berrian, Th.D.

Rippon
03-03-2006, 04:20 AM
Ray ,if one denies the Trinity -- one is not a Christian . It is too foundational . I know that trying to explain the Trinity is hard but Jesus is God , The Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God . Using the term persons may not be the best word to use but I don't think another comes close at this time . The word manifestation is too weak and leads to more confusion .

I was involved with some inner-city folks years ago who were into the " birthing " teaching of Jakes . It was a mess . The black community at large is highly vulnerable to Jakes' heresies . The white community has there hands full as well
with multiple false teachings holding sway .

Bible-boy
03-03-2006, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

Many branches of the Christian Church believe in baptismal regeneration among whom are: the Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Episcopalalians, Lutherans. Even if Pastor Jakes believes in this it does not make him a non-Christian.

Many Christians believe also that the first dispensations of time God the Father created the world. Then the Son, Jesus the Messiah offered His era of time which was thirty-three years. And lastly, after His ascension the age of the Holy Spirit came into being. I know this is not accurate but many young Christians believe this is true. Most of us believe in the unity of the one Godhead, probably only because some experienced S.S. teacher, pastor, professor, or theologian explained it to us. This again, does not make a pastor a false prophet. It does, however, mean that his orthodoxy is tainted. And for many of us Pentecostalism is a plus because they do not merely 'tip the hat' if you will to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. Their pastors teach the people to respect and worship God the Spirit. Plus, they do not deny I Corinthians 12 & 14, nor do they explain these chapters away as being merely national languages. Pastor Jakes probably believe that Christ died for all sinners which places him in the truth and not like Calvinists who deny the full atonement of Jesus Christ for sinners.

As you see I have caused you to look at Pastor Jake types in a better light, than you are able to do according to your defined views in theology.

For me, only if a clergy person denies the Deity of Christ will I then call that one a false prophet. Why? Because if they deny that Jesus is Divine the are absolutely not saved [I John 4:2].

Regards,
Berrian, Th.D. Let's stay on topic here folks. In the above quoted post Ray has intorduced a whole bunch of topics that are well debated in their own threads in this forum. Please do not take the "bait" he has thrown out here and drive this thread off topic. The subject of this thread is the Hour of Power (T.D. Jakes). Please stay on topic.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy,
Forum Moderator

DHK
03-03-2006, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

Many branches of the Christian Church believe in baptismal regeneration among whom are: the Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Episcopalalians, Lutherans. Even if Pastor Jakes believes in this it does not make him a non-Christian.
Does it matter?
Jakes believes that it is necessary for a man to be baptized in order to be saved. Works does not save. We are saved by grace through faith alone. Not through baptism. He preaches a false gospel. That is all that one needs to know.
DHK

standingfirminChrist
03-03-2006, 05:45 AM
Baptism does not save. Baptism is an act of obedience after salvation and an outward profession that one has been saved.

Bible-boy
03-03-2006, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

Many branches of the Christian Church believe in baptismal regeneration among whom are: the Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Episcopalalians, Lutherans. Even if Pastor Jakes believes in this it does not make him a non-Christian.
Does it matter?
Jakes believes that it is necessary for a man to be baptized in order to be saved. Works does not save. We are saved by grace through faith alone. Not through baptism. He preaches a false gospel. That is all that one needs to know.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Brother DHK,

You are exactly right. The teaching of baptismal regeneration is one of the primary reasons why we are Baptists and not part of one of these other demoninations. However, I would never attempt to argue that members of those denominations are not saved. That is not the issue here (as Ray appears to be attempting to assert). The issue is whether or not T.D. Jakes teaches false doctrine.

Ray Berrian
03-03-2006, 12:11 PM
Rippon,

I believe and was taught in Bible College and seminary about the truth of the Trinity.

When I was saved as a youth of eleven years of age I hardly knew the difference between the Trinity and the name Tony, and yet the Lord took away my sins and gave me salvation making me a child of God.

There are doubless other Christians who confuse the modes of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They cannot process at this point the fact that God is one and yet He speaks of Himself often in our age as God the Holy Spirit [John 14:16,17,26 & I John 2:27]

Just because people are learning about their saving faith does not place them back into the Kingdom of darkness.

Berrian, Th.D.

Ray Berrian
03-03-2006, 12:37 PM
DHK,

You said, 'Does it matter?
Jakes believes that it is necessary for a man to be baptized in order to be saved. Works does not save. We are saved by grace through faith alone. Not through baptism. He preaches a false gospel. That is all that one needs to know.'

[Quote] It really does not matter if Pastor Jakes believes that one must be baptized in order to be saved. Yes, he is a Christian pastor but in this he is wrong. It is my understanding that some Baptist denominations believe this too because of Mark 16:16. We must bare with these people who have not yet been enlightened in various matters of doctrine. No one is always going to agree about other brothers and sisters in Christ's doctrinal views. We are all in a process of learning the truths coming from the Lord.

Pastor Jakes preaches the true Gospel but is flawed in his alleged view of baptism.

In my opinion you need to allow the Holy Spirit to instruct these brethren in the truths from the Bible. You cannot just say everybody is preaching a false Gospel, just because they do not dot every 'i' and cross every 't' that you do, theologically speaking. Give people an opportunity to mature in their sanctification and in their understanding of God who saved their souls.

Of course, works do not save nor water baptism. Eternal salvation is all of Jesus' grace.

Maybe you should make a new topic on Water Baptism. Some will agrue that baptism by water was ministered by Paul to minors/infants by his 'household baptisms' [Acts 16:15]. But that is another discussion . . . .

Most Christians would disagree with some of the views of theology of both you and me, but this does not mean we are not believing, preaching and teaching the true Gospel. Other people who have their own ideas on some aspect of the Christian faith are also saved and are NOT preaching a false Gospel as you like to place everyone in a category which differs from your views.

I would think that Rev. Jakes believes in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and we would not agree with your theory of 'tongues' as being some national language that we have never heard or understood.

Even in this Jakes, you and I are preaching the same Gospel as to the saving power of Jesus Christ to all who believe and trust in Him.

DHK
03-03-2006, 03:24 PM
at TD Jakes' official web site. See, for example, its statement on the Trinity:

“God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

The belief that God exists in three "manifestations" is called Sabellianism or modalism:

Sabellianism or Modalism. Sabellius (A.D. 200), the originator of this viewpoint, spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he understood all three as no more than three manifestations of one God. This teaching came to be known as modalism because it views one God who variously manifests Himself in three modes of existence: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Bottom line: the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct, co-existent, co-equal Persons within the one God. If that is what TD Jakes Ministries beliefs, it should make an unequivocal statement to that effect. However, repeated emailed requests for clarification on this issue have gone unanswered.

Coleman asks Jakes how important it is for Christians to believe in the Trinity. Jakes responds:

“It's a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I'm not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, ''Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside him there is no other.'' When God got ready to make a man that looked like him, he didn't make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul, and spirit. We have one God, but he is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.”http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html

Jakes position on baptismal regeneration, and on the trinity make him a heretic. The difference between his view of baptismal regeneration and other Prostestant views is that the Oneness Pentecostal view (T.D. Jakes) believe that there is no other way of salvation but through baptism. If baptism (and their baptism) is not a part of your salvation, then you are not saved. That is a definite mark of a cult.
He is a Oneness Pentecostal, a heretical cult. They do not believe in the Trinity as evidenced above. If you do not believe in the trinity it goes to stand that you do not believe in the same Jesus as the Bible. You do not believe that Jesus is God, at least as the Bible describes him as God. He preaches a false god, a false Jesus.
DHK

Ray Berrian
03-03-2006, 05:52 PM
DHK,

Are Baptists who believe you must be baptized in water to be saved, heretics? Do you think Baptists who believe this are unsaved?

When you first got saved did you understand thoroughly the Trinity of the Godhead?

Isn't it more probable that some Christians are saved but simply have not been taught correctly as to the Trinity?

You should send a certified letter to Rev. Jakes and explain to him the correct belief as to what his orthodoxy should become. This would give the Holy Spirit an opportunity to clarify his mind as to what is correct. Who knows--you might be given a chair on his platform. Wear a bright red tie so I recognize you.

DHK
03-03-2006, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

Are Baptists who believe you must be baptized in water to be saved, heretics? Do you think Baptists who believe this are unsaved?Probably. But first and foremost, a person who believes you must be baptized to be saved is by definition not a baptized. So your question doesn't make any sense.
When you first got saved did you understand thoroughly the Trinity of the Godhead? Yes, I most certainly did. I was taught it for 20 years as I grew up in Catholicism. To be able to understand the Oneness Pentecostal concept of the Trinity is actually more difficult than to understand the clear teaching of the Bible on the trinity. Why they complicate it, I don't know.
Isn't it more probable that some Christians are saved but simply have not been taught correctly as to the Trinity?Not with Oneness Pentecostal. They have been deliberately taught false doctrine and by their own choice chosen to accept it. It is no different than choosing to become a Jehovah's witnessing and choosing to accept that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. It is their choice whether they want to accept or reject the clear teaching of the Bible, or their cult's teaching of the Bible. The same truth is freely available to all in this nation who want to believe it.
You should send a certified letter to Rev. Jakes and explain to him the correct belief as to what his orthodoxy should become. This would give the Holy Spirit an opportunity to clarify his mind as to what is correct. Who knows--you might be given a chair on his platform. Wear a bright red tie so I recognize you. If you read what I quoted above people have already sent him emails. They go unanswered. He will not answer any kind of letter or email with a direct response on the trinity. He doesn't want to be pinned down, though we know what he believes by his preaching and his writing. You can go to his website and find out for yourself. You can also do a web-search, and find out for yourself.
DHK