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mr. messy
03-02-2006, 02:01 PM
? What does T.U.L.I.P. stand for? This seems to be a condensation of John Calvin's teaching in a certain format...?

I am not a 5 point Calvinist.

Are there 5 similar points for the Wesleyans* [to keep it simple for me on the name's group] ?

Correct if I am wrong but my faulty memory would attempt to give the T.U.L.I.P. list as follows:

T may stand for the total depravity of men ? ?

U may stand for ? ? I have forgotten. ?

L may stand for the limited atonement of Christ?

I may stand for the irresistible call ? of Christ ?

P may stand for the persuversance? [my spelling is not correct] of the saints ?

If you help me, I would appreciate it.

Could you give me a link to the Calvinist point of view?

Could you give me a link to the non-Calvinist point of view?

Thanks again,

mr. messy

Matt Black
03-02-2006, 02:15 PM
T is total depravity - kind of similar to original sin I guess

U is unlimited grace

L is limited atonement - Jesus only died for some people not for all, apparently

I is irresistible grace ie: God does everything and those who are saved are incapable of being lost

P is perseverance of the saints which flows from I ie: once saved always saved

Most Christians would take issue with the L, and many also with the I and P.

standingfirminChrist
03-02-2006, 02:26 PM
Teenagers
Unearthed
Litigants
Infesting
probables

Helen
03-02-2006, 02:42 PM
This may help:
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/ -- pro
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1995ii/Congdon.htm -- con

By the way, TULIP stands for

Total Depravity

Unconditional Election

Limited Atonement

Irresistible Grace

Perseverance of the Saints

Jim1999
03-02-2006, 03:11 PM
Mr. Messy, This site is an overview of both Calvinism and Arminian "tulip".

http://www.tulipedia.org/TULIP_Overview_With_Arminian_Juxtapositions

Cheers,

Jim

DeclareHim
03-02-2006, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Teenagers
Unearthed
Litigants
Infesting
probables This is really unkind of you sir. I could say IFBC stands for
Icompetent
Fools
Believing
C***

As a Church that follows John Piper's theology we are clavinist and I don't like you mockery of this position. But I do not believe IFBC stands for the above I was just trying to make a point. ;)

[***Edited by Moderator. The word you typed is not suitable for use in this forum or anywhere on the BB. Please be more careful in your choice of words.]

[ March 03, 2006, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

Ray Berrian
03-02-2006, 04:54 PM
mr. messy,

You said, 'What does T.U.L.I.P. stand for?'

Tulip is just happy being a flower. The flower does not like being purloined by John Calvin's Roman Catholic medieval theology first taught by St. Augustine--the greatest Catholic quasi-theologian of all times. .

Deacon
03-02-2006, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by DeclareHim:
This is really unkind of you sir. I could say IFBC stands for
Icompetent
Fools
Believing
C***
Please forgive my brother StandingfirminChrist, he got carried away with an acronym game in another forum.

(and he beat me to posting along a similar line) :rolleyes:

Rob

[ March 03, 2006, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

standingfirminChrist
03-02-2006, 05:13 PM
You could say that? Looks like you already did.

Any true Bible believer knows the TULIP doctrine is not scripturally based.

Timtoolman
03-02-2006, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
You could say that? Looks like you already did.

Any true Bible believer knows the TULIP doctrine is not scripturally based. Most of them anyways.

Jim1999
03-02-2006, 05:49 PM
I believe tulip is biblical, but I am not going about making wild accusations about those who differ. I guess that's the difference between us.

Cheers,

Jim

4His_glory
03-02-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
You could say that? Looks like you already did.

Any true Bible believer knows the TULIP doctrine is not scripturally based. So Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, William Carrey, and Adoniriam Judson were not ture Bible believers?

standingfirminChrist
03-02-2006, 06:17 PM
Any who held to the TULIP were apparently not reading their Bible's in the light of the truth concerning the matter.

How's that?

I believe Jesus put it well when He said, 'Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures'

Jim1999
03-02-2006, 06:27 PM
No, we are all hell-bent for sure. No one else can know the truth, and I use my Bible to give me heigth when I sit down.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Cheers,

Jim

Ray Berrian
03-02-2006, 07:15 PM
4His--glory,

I believe you said, 'So Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, William Carrey, and Adoniriam Judson were not true Bible believers?'

[Quote] My belief is no one can know who will be saved except their own personal being. These men may have been and probably were saved, but if they preached on any one of these TULIP points they were preaching error and dishonored the Lord God. The closes they got to truth was Eternal Security, which, of course is a true doctrine [John 10:27-29; John 3:16; I John 5:13; I John 5:18]. But even in this 'Perserverence of the Saints' is somewhat different than the perfect security of the true child of God.

Jim1999
03-02-2006, 09:25 PM
I should like to be as Christocentric as was the beloved Mr. Spurgeon. If he was ignorant of scripture, I am blind. If some of these critics only read or wrote half of what that one man did in his brief lifetime. He was never accused of not loving the Lord Jesus,,,and where did he get this Jesus from? Why, the scriptures he loved so much.

I am so glad that my faith depends totally upon the Lord and not upon this frail old servant of the Lord. He saved me by His grace and He will keep me by His grace, and not by my puny, frail, fallen so-called free will.

Cheers,

Jim

Rippon
03-02-2006, 09:30 PM
Amen to all that you have said Jim1999 . And again , AMEN .

nate
03-02-2006, 11:13 PM
I also second Jim1999's post.

Bob Farnaby
03-03-2006, 08:27 AM
Amen Jim, It's all of grace ..

Regards
Bob

Ray Berrian
03-03-2006, 11:55 AM
I too agree, without Jesus there is no salvation. His work and ministry in us is all of grace [I John 5:13]. Life is in the Son [I John 5:11-12].

Berrian, Th.D.

BobRyan
03-03-2006, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Helen:

By the way, TULIP stands for

Total Depravity

Unconditional Election

Limited Atonement

Irresistible Grace

Perseverance of the Saints Helen wins the prize!

While I am certainly no Calvinist (not even a 3 point Calvinist as it turns out) -- I do agree with some part of what they say.

Total Depravity - this is from Romans 3 and is a correct view of the sinful nature of man "apart from" the work of God on the soul "Drawing all mankind to Himself"

Unconditional Election - This is only true in the pure Bible context of 2 Peter 3 sense "God is not WILLING FOR ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance". Unfortunately that unlimited scope is the very one that 4 and 5 point Calvinists deny.

Limited Atonement - This is only true in the pure Bible context/teaching on Atonement in Lev 16 and 1John 2:2. Where Atonement must ALSO include the unique role of Christ as our High Priest (Heb 7-8) and the Romans 2:15-16, 2Cor 5:8-9, Rev 14:7-8 Gospel judgment involved in His Role as High Priest. Only in that "full view of Atonement" is it true that "the many of Matt 7" are not atoned for.

Irresistible Grace - simply not true. Matt 23 shows this. "OH how I WANTED to spare your children -- but you would not!"

Perseverance of the Saints [/QUOTE]


This is true in the pure Bible context of 1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".. The concept of "perseverance" is never a "static" statement of the form "mankind was created by God" it is a dynamic motivating doctrine with "IF you do not lose heart and grow weary" conditional clauses all throughout the doctrine.

In Christ,

Bob

[ March 03, 2006, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]