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xdisciplex
04-28-2006, 12:57 PM
In my charismatic house meeting I noticed that most of the members sound exactly the same when they speak in tongues, the same style! The same "words".
Isn't this really strange? And this is on fluent language. Most of the time they repeat a few "words" over and over again. This doesn't seem real to me.
I cannot imagine that this is supposed to be this way. I mean a real language should have variety, it should be fluent. :(
I think I'll never speak in tongues, before I do this stuff I rather leave it because this way I would always feel like I'm only copying others or inventing my own words. Copying such a style is no problem at all. I can also make up words in my mind. I'm really kinda disillusioned with the charismatics. :(
But there also has to be real speaking in tongues out there, stuff which really sounds like a real language. :confused:
And I'm so sick of these advice like: Just try it! Don't think, just say something.
lol! And I stand there and there's nothing and feel totally dumb. No words. Zilch. How can I say something when I have no words?
I feel like most charismatics simply feel like they have to speak in tongues and then they simply copy others or make up stuff. I bet there are not many charismatics which could pray in tongues for 30 minutes without always repeating the same words and this is a bit strange in my opinion. A real language should have a lot of variety.

SpiritualMadMan
04-28-2006, 01:36 PM
Maybe they aren't really speaking Tongues?

Don't get me wrong.

I am a Tongue Talker. Ie., a Pentecostal...

But, there is a tendency to go overboard with the Gifts of The Spirit especialy tongues without really being In The Spirit...

My own "take" on the issue is my Prayer Language is _NOT_ the Public Gift of Tongues...

But, a language I recieved by a Word of Knowledge that in effect taught me a new language...

Now, I have a learned language of limited proficiency...

The only way I gain proficiency is by praying in the Spirit...

If I start to pray in the part I have already learned and do not progress into The Spirit it will always sound the same...

It is important for Pentecostal to realize that there is a requirement to do at least two things...

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

While the majority of these are for the Public Gifts of the Spirit...

It shows the importance of knowing the Word of God and the propensity for 'humans' to get it wrong...

For the Pentecostal the important thing is that once you are open to the Spiritual Realms by being filled with the Spirit you need to realize there are more than one 'spirit' inhabiting that realm...

And, the Holy Spirit doesn't mind if we 'test the spirits' because He has commanded we do so...

Mike Sr.

xdisciplex
04-28-2006, 05:02 PM
Hi Mike!
But how do you test a spirit?
I mean not everybody has the gift of discernment. I feel like those christians which do not have this ability are totally helpless and have no chance to know what's from God and what not and then they rather shut up because they are scared of "touching God's anointed"...
Unless you are really sure that something is not from God you will not dare to say anything against it because these scare-tactics will shut you up. I mean if you're not 100% sure that something is not from the holy spirit then you won't dare saying anything against it because if you're wrong then you've blasphemed the holy spirit. This is what I've heard. But if it's really so serious and if making a wrong judgement can have such terrible consequences for a christian then you have to be 1000% sure before you can even say something and I can imagine that this also causes a lot of insecurity because how are you supposed to know who does the miracles wether it's God or not.

SpiritualMadMan
04-28-2006, 05:35 PM
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The most important job the Holy Spirit has (after getting you to a place to get saved) is to come alongside you and guide you into all truth...

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And, this is for *ALL* Christians not just 'us' crazy tongue talkers...

(That is you don't have to be a Pentecostal to have the Holy Spirit's Help and Guidance. Just be open to it.)

When you became born-again you immediately had access to the Comfort and Guidance of the Holy Spirit...

But, usually we are too noisy to hear His Still Small Inner Voice...

So, there are two things used to test the spirits... Your own knowledge of the Word of God... And, your own ability to know the Holy Spirit's Voice when He speaks...

There are times you just have to hang on and trust your peers...

Waiting for time to prove all things...

I've had prophecies spoken over me and even though I was hearing exactly what I wanted to hear...

Deep inside my heart there was a 'check' a tiny bit of 'this isn't quite right'.

As time went on the prophecy was revealed to be about 20 percent correct...

If I hadn't waited for the Spirit to show me over time the truth or lack of truth, and if I had forged ahead based on the prophecy, in spite of the 'hesitation in my spirit'...

I would have been hurt pretty badly...

I wish I could say I listened that well all the time... smile.gif

As for people who go around controlling others with the phrase, "Touch Not The Lord's Anointed"...

IMHO, they are blind guides making a vain attempt to guide the blind...

That phrase was specific for it's time and leadership of Israel...

Now we are **all** Kings and Priests unto God...

Kinda hard not to "touch" the Kings and Priests when you are one, and when you are specifically told to do so? (To discren and to judge.)

On the other side of the coin...

I mean if you're going to use OT scripture to support something...

In OT times if any person purported to speak for God and was found to not have been authorized to do so...

They were summarily executed. Period. No trial, no mitigation, instant stoning...

What I am saying here is that it is actually far more dangerous to say you are speaking for God when God is not speaking through you, than it is to challenge what doesn't sound like it measures up next to God Written Word.

If you prefix the challenge (and it will be seen as a challenge) with, "The Berean in me wants to know how this squares with this Scripture", and you get the "Touch Not" response...

IMHO, it's time to find another fellowship...

You're in Germany?

I would try Assemblies of God if you want to stay with Penetcost.

Or, Calvary Chapel if you still want some Charismatic without the heavy Pentecostal influence...

And, I'd bet there are some good Baptists there, too... People who love Jesus... And, know how to worship...

Some 'wags' have stated that the Pentecostal and Charismatic groups are a very healthy diet...

Full of Fruits, Nuts, and Flakes... :D

So, if you are in a group that is not open to Gently Instructing you... It's time to move on.

Mike Sr.

donnA
04-28-2006, 05:56 PM
humm, thats what I've seen too, does God give the exact same message over and over again, from one person to the next, everytime they speak in tongues? I think not.
Some people think they have to help the Holy Spirit with tongues, meaning FAKE! I once heard a popluar televangelist say that, can't remember who it was. According to him you ahve to start it out and the Holy SPirit takes over.
Yeah, right.

Gup20
04-28-2006, 05:59 PM
1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


Well the Bible is pretty clear here that we are not to forbid someone from speaking in tongues. However, I think there is a difference between tongues that is a personal prayer language and tongues meant for the edification of the body of christ.

For example if I am meditating and praying, the Bible says the Holy Spirit makes intercession on my behalf with groanings that cannot be uttered. I would call that tongues for my personal prayer life.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Then there is also tongues for the edification of the body. A friend of mine was just telling me the other day that a friend of his felt lead to deliver a word in tongues at his church. He said the words sounded different from his normal tongues. The pastor asked for anyone who might have a translation, but no one came forward. After the service a man walked up to him and informed him that he spoke perfectly in the man's native dialect and that the message was specifically for him. He had not come forward because the message was directed specifically to him from the Lord.

When we consider that Language - and the different languages - are all divine in origin (the Tower of Babel) it is no great stretch of the immagination that the one who created all languages can use your tongues in any way He sees fit. Generally, our part as His stewards is to be willing vessels for Him.

BobRyan
04-29-2006, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by xdisciplex:
In my charismatic house meeting I noticed that most of the members sound exactly the same when they speak in tongues, the same style! The same "words".
Isn't this really strange? And this is on fluent language. Most of the time they repeat a few "words" over and over again. This doesn't seem real to me.
I cannot imagine that this is supposed to be this way. I mean a real language should have variety, it should be fluent. :(

... A real language should have a lot of variety. I agree with you but this is more than just a problem of "I don't feel like this is the right thing to do".

There is a good Bible model for determining that this is in fact fake.

In 1 Cor 14 we see some interesting facts about the gift of tongues.

#1. The person speaking has complete control over its content.

#2. IF the content is NOT freely and clearly understood by an unbeliever then the whole thing is goofed up.

#3. It is intended as a "sign to unbelievers" who come in and hear it - NOT as a sign to "believers".

#4. IF the unbeliever simply hears "jibberish" he will say "you are mad" and the whole thing is a flop!

#5. Paul spoke in more languages than the entire church at Corinth combined.


The only way all of this works - is if the gift is in fact the gift of speaking a known language "known to unbelievers" given supernaturally such that the unbeliever KNOWS you should not be able to do it.

For example - going to Ephesus and hearing someone speaking in Mandarin IF someone from China heard a greek or a Hebrew speaking their native tongue fluently they would accept this as a "sign". But other Hebrews or Greeks in that church who are "believers" would not think it was much of anything since they did not speak the language. It can only BE a sign to someone from that far away country.

It's purpose was "unlimited evangelism" to unbelievers from distant lands. The "purpose of the counterfeit" today is anything but that.

in Christ,

Bob

SpiritualMadMan
04-29-2006, 10:18 AM
The Love Chapter mentions Tongues of Men and of Angels... How many of you know Angelic Languages?

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Paul writes in Romans about the Spirit helping us pray using Groanings and Utterances...

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

So, I stand by my statement of there being a prayer language...

As for the Gift of Tongues, for Public use...

There must be an Interpreter or it must be a known Language...

As I alluded to earlier, my Pentecostal Peers have a problem with realizing that just because they are Spirit-Filled, it doesn't make them Spiritually Invulnerable or Infallible...

Paul spoke in Tongues more than they all did...

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Strong's says that this is a language naturally unacquired... That is not learned through normal human means...

The same word is used throughout Paul's discourse on Tongues... Meaning Paul was talking about the same thing throughout the discourse...

Languages of Men and of Angels not learned in a normal manner...

He also speaks of edifying the Church in addition to convincing the Unbelievers...

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

My Pentecostal Peers are majoring on minors when they over emphasize Tongues...

The the cessesionists are incorrect in saying the gifts are gone and everything we have now is counterfeit...

There are nine manifestations or gifts of the Spirit...

If Tongues has ceased then so have the other eight because they are part of a group package...

Where, then, do you Cessionists obtain that sudden insight of the meaning of a passage of Scripture?

Where do you Cessionists obtain that sudden insight into just the right counsel to give?

Where do your Missionaries obtain that extra special oomph of Faith to get through those extremely dangerous and trying times?

If not from the Gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church...

You see I am firmly convinced that One does not have to be 'filled' to have the Holy Spirit in attendance...

And, wherever the Holy Spirit is... He will manifest Himself to the extent we allow Him to...

You can not deny one manifestation and then proclaim others in the same package...

The Spirit is whole not in pieces.

And, it is the Spirit that distributes His Manifestations as He sees fit for the edification of the Church...

Not a denomination... Not a man...

Mike Sr.

xdisciplex
04-29-2006, 02:57 PM
They do not prophecy in tongues. They usually either pray in tongues with a quiet voice. This usually happens while others are praying. Somebody prays using normal language and then I watch the others and they are all sitting there whispering in tongues. And what they also do is simply singing in tongues but what's so strange is that last time somebody else was singing and playing guitar and when this person sang in tongues it sounded exactly like the other person which usually sings in tongues! The same style, the same words. This is what makes me sceptical of it.

SpiritualMadMan
04-29-2006, 04:54 PM
It sounds to me like they have never gone past their intitial filling of the Holy Spirit and grown in their prayers...

Lets see if I can put this into understandable words...

I have a prayer language that I "know" a few phrases fairly well...

If I start praying in that part with which I am familiar with and seek to allow the Holy Spirit to pray with and through me I should progress from praying in my 'known' tongues to Praying in the Spirit...

The fact, IMHO, that people are not progressing past their own volitional prayer in their 'known' tongues may be an indication that the Holy Spirit is not actually in attendance...

Or, they just aren't growing, relying only on the preacher to be spoon fed baby food...

OTOH, Some praise *is* repetitive...

As someone mentioned over on the Music Forum...

Consider the Hallelujah Chorus...

Now if you hear someone singing or praying "Hallelujah" or "Praise the Almighty God" over and over in an angelic tongue that may actually be OK... For Pentecostals, that is. smile.gif

When I sing in the Spirit it is almost always in English. A spontaneus song of Worship or Praise...

In your case it should probably be a Prophetic Song in German?

There may be an over emphasis on Tongues at this place...

An old Penetcostal Evangelist, when asked what do you geth when you get filled with the Holy Spirit, said, emphatically, "Trouble! With a captital 'T'".

Tongues are not an end... It's a beginning...

If you really believe that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit...

If you really believe that God is Holy and Righteous...

Then where do we Pentecostals get off thinking that we can have God Almighty's Lliving Presence within us and not allow or expect our lives to at least begin a Clean sweeping process?

That's where the trouble comes in...

He is the Lord... He changes not... YOU do!

You can either change voluntarily or take another trip around mount Sinai. smile.gif

Mike Sr.

Claudia_T
04-29-2006, 11:22 PM
it always sounds the same because its fake

Ben W
04-29-2006, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Claudia_T:
it always sounds the same because its fake Does the Seventh Day Adventist Church teach that the gift of speaking in tounges has ceased?

This is not a crack at the SDA, I am just interested in their position on Spiritual gifts?

Claudia_T
04-29-2006, 11:40 PM
Hi Ben,

No we believe that speaking in tongues means everyone hearing the gospel message in their own language. Thats what it was for. I will post something for you in a minute about it...so you can see our position

Claudia

Claudia_T
04-29-2006, 11:49 PM
Speaking in Tongues by Jeff Wehr

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Chinese gentleman visited a charismatic church in which the members

were speaking in tongues. One of the elders of the church recognized

the Chinese man and visited his business the following week. When he

asked the Chinese man how he liked the church service, the man shook

his head in disapproval.

The elder said, "What was wrong? I thought I heard a lady speak in

tongues that sounded like Chinese."

The Chinese man said, "She did speak in Chinese, and she was cursing

God the whole time."

This is just one of many such examples, of which I have heard, of

individuals who believed that they were praising God, but who were in

fact cursing Him.

How could this be? Certainly the Holy Spirit would not lead someone to

curse God. Could the devil have a counterfeit of the Biblical speaking in

tongues?

For those of you who have never heard of this phenomenon of people

speaking in an ecstatic tongue, let me take a brief moment to explain.

Today between 7% and 20% of all Christians "speak in tongues" from

time to time in a language that is not their mother tongue. The example

above, of the lady who spoke in Chinese, is exceptional because usually

those who speak in "tongues," speak in a language that linguists say

has no systematic resemblance to any human language that is spoken

today. It is this most common form of "speaking in tongues" (the

nonhuman, nonintelligible language) upon which we will focus our study.

This phenomenon of spontaneously speaking in a language that is

generally strange to humanity is of recent origin. While there were

several incidents of tongue speaking during the 1800s, the first wave of it

occurred at the beginning of the twentieth century.

It began on December 31, 1900, at Bethel College in Topeka, Kansas.

When Pastor Charles Parham laid his hands upon some of the students,

they began to speak in a form of speech that was not recognizable to

anyone. One of those young students was Miss Agnes Ozman.

Six years later, in 1906, Ozman and several other students, who had

received this experience, moved to Los Angeles and held meetings

which started the "first Pentecostal effusion."

Since then, this tongue-speaking experience has taken in over 300

million Christians. What phenomenal growth! However, why is it

happening now?

Some say it is a sign of the soon coming of Christ, and perhaps it is.

Yet, that alone does not explain or prove that it is of God, or of Satan.

We do know that this form of ecstatic speech in an unknown language is

not peculiar to Christianity--or even to religious people. This same

phenomenon of speech is found among non-Christian religions,

especially in Asia and Africa. This ecstatic speech is also found among

atheists and agnostics.

Certainly it is not the Holy Spirit who is performing this phenomenon in

religions that reject Jesus as the Saviour, and through others who even

deny the existence of God, but it is happening. Research has shown

that all of these forms of ecstatic speech in Christian and non-Christian

communities is identically the same "cross-linguistically" and

"cross-culturally."

Along with this gift to speak in an unknown tongue has come the gift to

interpret these ecstatic utterances. Are these interpreters accurate?

An experiment was performed in which someone speaking in an ecstatic

tongue was recorded on tape. They then replayed the tape to several

different people who claimed to have the gift to interpret these

utterances. However, there was no similarity in the several

interpretations. They ranged in their interpretation from saying that the

utterances referred to a prayer for the health of someone's children--to

praising God for a recent and successful church, fund-raising effort. It is

evident from this example that the interpreters were not accurate. So

where are they getting their gift to interpret?

Of course, this phenomenon raises some very serious questions. If it is

of the Holy Spirit, why do people misinterpret what is said? After all, the

Bible says that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. See John 14:26. If

this is of the Holy Spirit, then why is He manifesting the same gift

through different religions that teach contradictory beliefs. After all, the

Bible says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. See John 16:13.

It is easy enough to see that Satan would want to join the world's

religions together through some spiritual manifestation. However, what

does the Bible say concerning the speaking in tongues or in a different

language?

Mark 16
First of all, Jesus foretold that His disciples would speak with "new

tongues," "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name

shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall

take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt

them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark

16:17-18.

The context of Jesus' words is His commission for His disciples to

evangelize the world. The speaking with "new tongues" was to enable

the disciples to speak with people who spoke other languages. The

disciples would speak in a language that was "new" to them but

understood by their audience.

When Jesus trained His disciples during His three-and-one-half-year

ministry, He limited their training to reach out to the Jews living in Israel

and Samaria. However, after Jesus ascended into heaven, He desired to

send His disciples to every nation, tongue, and people. Consequently,

He gifted them to speak in "new tongues" or languages.

Acts 2
In Acts 2:1-13 we have recorded the fulfillment of Jesus' prediction. The

disciples and other fellow believers, 120 in number, gathered together for

prayer and consecration in preparation to receive the outpouring of the

Holy Spirit.

When the day of Pentecost had come, the Holy Spirit came upon every

individual, and they "began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit

gave them utterance." Verse 4.

The speaking in an "other tongue" did not come by man's own efforts,

but it was a gift the Holy Spirit bestowed upon the followers of Christ

when they were gathered together. "Jews, devout men, out of every

nation under heaven. . . . And they were all amazed and marvelled . . .

because that every man heard them speak in his own language." Verses

5, 7, 6.

Notice that the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a foreign and known

human language was bestowed upon believers--not upon unbelievers.

The purpose of the gift was to give unbelievers an opportunity to hear the

gospel in their own language. Consequently, the gift itself would serve as

a sign to unbelievers that the message they heard was from Heaven.

The result of Jesus' followers receiving the gift to speak in a different

language was the conversion of "three thousand" precious souls to

Christ in one day. Verse 41.

There were also present those who scoffed and mocked the disciples by

suggesting that the disciples were drunk. See verse 13. They heard the

gospel in their own language, thereby signifying that the gift bestowed

upon the disciples was a definite sign that the message had the signet

of Heaven. Yet, they rejected the message and the messengers.

Acts 10
The next example of "speaking in tongues" is found in Acts chapter 10.

In this passage, the apostle Peter has an opportunity to teach Gentile

believers in Caesarea. The Holy Spirit "fell on all them which heard the

word. . . . For they heard them speak with tongues." Verse 44, 46.

On this occasion as well, the Holy Spirit came upon the believers--both

Jew and Gentile Christians. The Holy Spirit "fell" upon them suddenly,

representing that it was a special endowment from Heaven and not from

man. The purpose of the gift was the communication of what God had

accomplished through His Son Jesus.

Again we find this gift employed in a large metropolis where many

different peoples and languages were represented. When Peter gave his

report on the events of Caesarea, he said, "The Holy Ghost fell on them

[in Caesarea], as on us at the beginning [in Jerusalem at Pentecost]."

Acts 11:15. Of course, what happened in Jerusalem was that every man

heard the gospel in his mother language.

It is important to note that Luke, the writer of the book of Acts, did not

need to explain the manifestation of "speaking in tongues" in Caesarea.

Why? Because he, the author, had already defined the gift in Acts

chapter 2. Peter himself confirms that it was the identical manifestation

of the Holy Spirit as experienced at Pentecost.

Acts 19
In Acts chapter 19 we see this gift exercised in another major

city--Ephesus. Here the apostle Paul met with some believers who had

no knowledge of the work of the Holy Spirit. Because these disciples in

Ephesus were baptized with John's baptism, Paul instructed them about

the true baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus." Verse 5.

Paul then baptized them in the name of Jesus and laid his hands upon

them, and "the Holy Ghost came on them." Verse 6.

This practice of the laying on of hands is often represented with the

reception of the Holy Spirit, and as a sign that those involved were called

to evangelize the world. Of course, the laying on of hands is not

necessary for someone to receive the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2:1-4;

9:10-18; 10:46-48. Nor does everyone "speak in tongues" because he

received the laying on of hands. See Acts 2:41; 8:38-39; 9:18; 16:15, 33.

It was simply a practice in those days as they dedicated themselves to

receive God's Spirit, to accept Jesus as Lord, and to fulfill the gospel

commission.

Greek scholars tell us that the Greek form of the verb "to speak" in this

passage is in the imperfect tense, indicating that the gift was bestowed

for continuous and prolonged use. The believers in Jerusalem and

Caesarea also received the same permanent gift to proclaim the gospel

far and near.

Commenting on these verses, Sister White wrote, "Thus they were

qualified to labor as missionaries in Ephesus and its vicinity, and also to

go forth to proclaim the gospel in Asia Minor." Review and Herald,

August 31, 1911.

1 Corinthians 12-14
Now the passages that have generated the greatest amount of confusion

and controversy are those found in 1 Corinthians chapters 12 through 14.

Some have suggested that Acts chapters 2, 10, and 19 do indeed

describe speaking in a foreign language known to man, but that the gift

represented in Corinthians is different. They argue that this form of

ecstatic tongues is an angelic language used for personal prayer and the

edification of the church.

However, when we study the terminology found in all of these passages

from Mark 16:17 to Acts chapters 2, 10, and 19, we find that the Greek

word for "tongue" is the same. In fact, the verb "to speak" in tongues is

the same in all of these accounts. Consequently, there is only one gift of

tongues.

Because the gift of tongues had become a permanent gift for those who

received it, Paul gave some rules for the exercising of the gift during

church. Apparently, many of the Corinthian believers were (1) causing

commotion because several were speaking in tongues at the same time,

(2) there was no one present who understood what they were saying,

and (3) to the nonbelievers, who were watching, it seemed awkward,

disorderly, and confusing. See 1 Corinthians 14:23.

When one considers that the purpose of "speaking in tongues" was to

reach unbelievers, it was disastrous when many of the Corinthian

believers were misappropriating the gift. The gift was to be a sign to

unbelievers that God had a message of salvation for them personally.

See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22.

First, Paul counsels them to speak in order, and then let only one

interpret. See 1 Corinthians 14:27. The word for "interpret" means to

"translate"--as from one known language to another. Consequently, one

man would speak in an intelligible foreign language and then another

man would translate it into the local language.

Second, if there is no one to interpret, let the one who speaks in tongues

keep silent. See 1 Corinthians 14:28. The gift of tongues was given to

communicate truth. If a believer speaks in German, but there are no

unbelievers who understand German, then another believer who

understands German should translate the message in a language that

the others can understand, otherwise, the message is aimless and

unintelligible to all. Paul testified that he would rather speak five words

that people could understand than ten thousand words that no one could

understand. See 1 Corinthians 14:18-19.

However, some have misunderstood the words of Paul when he said,

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not

charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." 1

Corinthians 13:1. The Greek conditional clause used in this passage

indicates that Paul is speaking hypothetically. In other words, we know

that man does not speak in the language of angels, but even if he could,

it would profit him nothing if he had not the love of God in his heart.

Then in another place Paul says, "For he that speaketh in an unknown

tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth

him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2.

The believer who speaks "in the spirit" is speaking by the Holy Spirit.

What is he speaking? He "speaketh mysteries"? Does God inspire men

to speak about odd and secret things? No. Believers are the "stewards

of the mysteries of God." 1 Corinthians 4:1. His servants speak about

the "mystery of godliness." 1 Timothy 3:16. We are to make known the

mystery of God. We are to declare the truth about God that has been

previously misunderstood. This truth is revealed by the power of the Holy

Spirit. As Paul said, "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me,

that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the

gospel." Ephesians 6:19.

But why does it say that "no man understandeth him"? The problem in

Corinth was that nobody present could understand him. He spoke in an

intelligible language, but there was no one present who could understand

that particular language. Consequently, he was not speaking unto men.

As Paul said, "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy

to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall

speak into the air." 1 Corinthians 14:9.

In summary, let it be understood that (1) Jesus predicted the need and

the endowment of this special gift to speak in a foreign and "new

tongue," so that the gospel could be preached throughout the world. (2)

The very manifestation of this gift was to be a "sign" to unbelievers that

the message they were hearing was from Heaven. (3) The gift of tongues

is not some ecstatic and unintelligible tongue, but it is indeed a known

human language. The purpose of the gift was to communicate the gospel

to the world's billions who have spoken thousands of different languages

and dialects. (4) There is indeed a counterfeit to the Biblical speaking in

tongues. It has taken the world by storm. Satan will use this counterfeit

manifestation to communicate error. He endeavors to work upon the

senses and the lower nature of man, namely, man's appetite, passions,

and desires. This is to keep man from settling into the truth with his

higher nature, namely, man's intellect, reason, and conscience.

So often Satan has found success by playing upon the emotions of man

and his senses, thereby bypassing his intellect, reason, and

conscience. However, God's people must be intelligent upon that which

is written in the Word of God. They must choose to do right, because it

is right and because right doing is pleasing to God. They must allow

their conscience to be wooed only by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that

proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4. Yet, so many are

unsatisfied with the plain words of Scripture. They have a false

salvational security because of this spiritual manifestation of tongues.

Yet, those who shall make up the kingdom of God must live by faith.

Day by day, moment by moment, they must walk with their Lord and

Saviour. They must hunger and thirst for righteousness. See Matthew

5:6.

In summary, none of us are saved because we speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is not even evidence that someone is saved. Many

non-Christians and atheists speak in the same ecstatic and unintelligible

tongue. Jesus warned the religious world, "Except ye see signs and

wonders, ye will not believe." John 4:48. We are not to put our faith in

the signs and wonders. They will increase as time draws to a close. We

are to trust in the promises of God and prepare to live with our Maker

and Redeemer forever and ever.

Claudia_T
04-29-2006, 11:50 PM
sorry that turned out double spaced like that

Brian30755
04-29-2006, 11:54 PM
According to him you ahve to start it out and the Holy SPirit takes over.
Yeah, right.In a sense, this is correct. God gave you the ability to speak, but in order to speak, you have to use your breath, your vocal cords, etc. In other words, words don't just come flying out of your mouth unless you want them to.

The same goes for speaking in tongues. If God gives you this gift, you still have to use your vocal cords, and your breath, to speak in whatever language He gives you. The words don't just come flying out of your mouth.

The first time you ever speak in tongues, you do have to speak in faith, speaking this language that you've never heard before, which are only strange sounds to you at first. Then, once you start speaking, the Holy Spirit does take over, and He forms the words in your mouth. You just provide the breath and your vocal cords, and He forms the words that come out. I know this is hard to understand if you haven't experienced it, but that's the way it happens.

Claudia_T
04-29-2006, 11:55 PM
Ben,


to get a good idea of how SDAs view the spiritual gifts, go here and then read the Introductions to the books "Patriarchs and Prophets" and "Great Controversy"

http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/readbooks.html

webdog
04-30-2006, 12:06 AM
So, I stand by my statement of there being a prayer language...Jesus told us what the "prayer language" is and how to pray..."Our Father...". Sorry, but Scripture mentions nothing of a prayer lanuage (and the text that talks about the Holy Spirit praying on our behalf does not condone it). If you have one, I would question from "who" it's from, as it's not from God.

Jim1999
04-30-2006, 12:12 AM
Act One; Scene Two. It is a performance.

Cheers,

Jim

SpiritualMadMan
04-30-2006, 11:02 AM
So,
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Isn't about a prayer?

Then what is "Intercession in and by the Spirit"???

What are groanings and utterances that can not be spoken?

Also, for every account of

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

(One might then also ask, that, if all gifts are fake... By what Gift do you Cessionist declare Jesus is Lord?)


There are several accounts of the opposite happening where people were brought to Jesus by a Gift of Tongues in their own languages dialect...

Only the genuine is ever worth counterfeiting...

Paul told us (above) that there would be Counterfeits...

Paul told us to judge Prophecy. I believe that by implication *all* Spiritual Gifts Manifested in Open Congregation are subject to scrutiny...

John tells us to Test the Spirits to see if they are of God or not...

It is this lack of self-control and self-policing that makes us Pentecostals open to such charges.

But, that does not mean that **ALL** Manifestations today are false...

Though I will admit some, perhaps many, are...

Mike Sr.

Ed Edwards
04-30-2006, 06:28 PM
Xdisciplex: //why does it always sound the same???//

IMHO (in my humble opinion) the sound of the speaking
in unknown tongues is obvious but different.
The language one learns determines which syllables one
can say. (One learns this by 5 or 6, which is why people
who learn to speak a language after adulthood speak with
an accent.) So Russian speakers will use slightly different
speach patterns so their unknown tongue will have a Russian
sound to it. My unknown tongue has a Okie sound to it ;)

xdisciplex: //Isn't this really strange? And this is on fluent language.
Most of the time they repeat a few "words" over and over again.
This doesn't seem real to me.//

I once noticed a woman saying "ah-ba-ba-ba ... " I counted once:
13 'ba's. This is NOT like normal speach at all.

Here is a contrived sentence that has a syllable repeated
5 times ;)

Had Had had had had?

had-1 - 'had' used to form a question
Had-2 - a person's name
had-3 - 'had' denoting 'previously possessed'
had-4 - 'had' denoting 'used'
had-5 - short for a type of fish, the haddoc

Had this person previously possed some used fish?

Meanwhile, back at the Private Prayer Language corner
(I don't speak in public in unknown tonugues, the by-laws
of my local church preclude there being anybody there who
can interpret unknown tongues ;) )

Back about 35 years ago I was reading a Scientific Journal which
showed that the brain has a part that fires out syllables
(the ones you learned for your language before you were
5 or 6 years old); another part that censors those syllables
so you can make some sence in what you say.
I found that if the censor part of the brain is more subject to the type of
clinical depression I had than is the
syllable initiator portion of the brain.
Ah, then i can just shut off the censor part of the brain
(assuming i'm not doing some significant brain function
like driving, etc) and get away from the pain of mental
depression for awile. Ah, then the Private Prayer Language
has some use, if one is prone to mental depression.

In this regard, there are two things I'm not sure of:

1. is it more holy to have your syllable censor part of your
brain inactive than active?

2. Is is important to take time to teach these calming techniques
in church? (more important that other things you can do
like teaching people how to cope with guilt? get along with
others? get in touch with God?)

SpiritualMadMan
04-30-2006, 07:23 PM
Ed,

I firmly believe that our wills, guided by a thorough knowledge of God's Written Word should sense the Spirit even of our Prayer Language and censor what we sense is not of God...

It is this attitude of my Pentecostal Peers that drives me crazy...

To believe that because you are a Tongue Talker you can say no wrong, do no wrong, and can not be decieved...

IMHO, is _NOT_ wise...

To summarize... I do _NOT_ believe it is God's Will that we put our wills in suspension and allow ourselves to operate unchecked...

IMHO, we are expected to be intelligent, knowledgable, and willing participants with God...

Not a mouthpiece on auto-pilot...

Mike Sr.

Gershom
04-30-2006, 07:41 PM
I've read Jack Hayford who believes the practice can be taught. If it comes from the Spirit of God, why would a person have to be taught how to speak in tongues?

I believe it can be genuine in some instances, but as the OP stressed, it seems fake when you hear the same "utterances" repeated over and over.

I wonder if some do it from pressure or some to appear of feel more spiritual.

"Ahhh, barlllack-a-shem..." over and over.

Tom Butler
05-01-2006, 10:03 AM
A couple of questions for those who practice speaking in tongues:

Can you turn it on and off at will? Can you just decide to do it?

If you can, why would you want to?

If you can't, are you risking placing yourself under the power of something other than the Holy Spirit. How do you know it is Holy Spirit-induced and controlled, and not a counterfeit?

This is not an adversarial query, but a sincere request for information?

BobRyan
05-01-2006, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by xdisciplex:
They do not prophecy in tongues. They usually either pray in tongues with a quiet voice. This usually happens while others are praying. Somebody prays using normal language and then I watch the others and they are all sitting there whispering in tongues. And what they also do is simply singing in tongues but what's so strange is that last time somebody else was singing and playing guitar and when this person sang in tongues it sounded exactly like the other person which usually sings in tongues! The same style, the same words. This is what makes me sceptical of it. All "nice" the problem is that the key focus in 1Cor 14 is "Tongues are a sign for UNBELIEVERS". That only works if tongues are languages. An atheist, an agnostic, a Jew... will not be impressed by "humble jibberish". In fact the text of 1Cor 14 makes that point clear. It does not even consider the notion of yelling - it is purely a question in 1Cor 14 of Jibberish heard by an unbeliever who then would say "you are mad".

There is no escaping this.

In 1Cor 14 the "Jibberish" problem is not the bogus examples we have today - rather it is a case of speaking a language that is not understood by one but is understood by others AND is also clearly understood by the one speaking.

In 1Cor 14 case of tongues both the TIMING and the CONTENT are determine "by man". But in 1Cor 14 NEITHER the Timing NOR the CONTENT are determined by man in the case of Prophecy.

We see that clearly in that the contrast between them has a prophet speaking who must sit down in the middle of their presentation IF ANOTHER gets a message while the first is standing and communicating!

that is in direct contrast to tongues in 1Cor 14.


In Christ,

Bob

SpiritualMadMan
05-01-2006, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Tom Butler:
A couple of questions for those who practice speaking in tongues:

Can you turn it on and off at will? Can you just decide to do it?

If you can, why would you want to?

If you can't, are you risking placing yourself under the power of something other than the Holy Spirit. How do you know it is Holy Spirit-induced and controlled, and not a counterfeit?

This is not an adversarial query, but a sincere request for information? Tom,

If we could not 'shut down' the flow would it be possible to be responsible in the Gift?

I am very convinced we are responsible to at least monitor the flow...

Whether it is a Prayer Language or a Prophetic Version...

There are two reason why I would want to start such a flow...

If I start in my own understanding and use it as a means to start an intercessory session with the Holy Spirit who prays with utterances and groanings that can not be uttered...

If I know it is the Spirit praying through me then I can have confidence that I am praying according to God's Will...

If I know that I am praying according to God's Will, I know that He is Hearing Me...

If I know He hears me then I have confidence my prayer will be answered. That I will have my petition..

This encourages me and gives me confidence I might not have otherwise...

If I am operating in the prophetic mode of tongues (public utterance requiring interpretation) than it edifies the whole church which is also a good thing.

When I pray in the Spirit I do not always know the verbatim of what I am praying. But, I do know the 'gist' of what I am praying...

As for "risks"...

Yes, I believe there are risks...

That's precisely why John wrote that we are to try the spirits to see if they are of God or not...

Also, Paul wrote that we should be aware that no one Speaking by the Holy Spirit will call Jesus cursed...

So, yes, I would say that people without a good working knowledge of God's Word are susceptable to being decieved...

I will go further and say that a lack of understanding of the working of the Holy Spirit on both sides of the aisle is responsible for the numbers of Nuts, Fruits, and Flakes in the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements...

I say this because, 'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge'. Hosea 4:6

And, often people will use conflict and challenge as an excuse to continue questionable behavior.

People who are 'naturally spiritually sensitive' are more vulnerable than others because if they do not become Berean they are subject to being compromised and falling prey to doctrines of devils...

Mike Sr.
Another eason why is there is a measure of His Presence that is not 'felt' outside of operating in His Gifts...

This is one of the reasons why some Penetcostals appears so addicted to "The Gifts"...

In His Presence is Fullness of Joy...

Even strongly sensing His Smile is something most would die to repeat...

The only thing I can share that even compares is how high off the floor I was walking after my Son, our first born, was born...

James_Newman
05-01-2006, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Gershom:
I've read Jack Hayford who believes the practice can be taught. If it comes from the Spirit of God, why would a person have to be taught how to speak in tongues?

I believe it can be genuine in some instances, but as the OP stressed, it seems fake when you hear the same "utterances" repeated over and over.

I wonder if some do it from pressure or some to appear of feel more spiritual.

"Ahhh, barlllack-a-shem..." over and over. If I was going to learn tongues, I would try to learn some tongues that no one else was using. Jesting aside though, when I was young I was taken to a pentacostal training camp, I mean church, and whisked off to a sunday school class where the teachers were indeed teaching all the children how to speak in tongues. They told me how to do it and offered me a prize if I would do it for them, but I was really not hip to the idea. I was about 10 years old I think. Looking back, I think they were trying to get me saved.

Briguy
05-01-2006, 10:54 AM
SMM, you quoted Romans where it talks about groanings which CANNOT be uttered and used it as a argument for uttering words that the speaker does not understand. Do you see the flaw in that. The Holy Spirit is what makes us sensitive to the needs of others. He draws us to God and unifies us with others. He helps us keep our prayers focused in the right place. I just can't see how praying in Gibberish (private prayer language) could help us focus on our spiritual growth and more importantly focus on the needs of others. For example: During prayer we often will get those directions on what to do for someone else. Be it giving money or helping them in some way. The Holy Spirit groans out for us and helps us to see what we should do next. That is because we are the hands and feet of Christ and He has works for us to do. The Romans passage is not about selfish fulfillment but rather about what the Holy Spirit longs for us to do.

Bob made a good point ( I don't think I have ever said that before - LOL) Anyway, Tongues were a sign to unbelievers, but not just any unbelievers, they were a sign to unbelieving Isreal. The sign pointed to an upcoming judgement and destruction. This happened in 70AD when Isreal was scattered. See if Isaiah 28, (quoted by Paul in 1 Cor. 14, right before he says tongues are a sign for unbelievers) matches what we know happened to Isreal in 70AD. If it does then Tongues have to be gone. Signs cease after what they are pointing to happens. If the detruction of Isreal in 70AD does not match what Isaiah 28 speaks of, then the sign of Tongues is still around and Isreal is still going to be judged and destroyed, etc... and this "sign" has been in place for going on 2000 years. Those are the two choices here, in context of what Paul taught in regards to tongues.

In Christ,
Brian

EdSutton
05-01-2006, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Jim1999:
Act One; Scene Two. It is a performance.

Cheers,

Jim Personal position- I may or may not agree, but a great comment, regardless!

graemlins/thumbs.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif

Ed

SpiritualMadMan
05-01-2006, 03:38 PM
Briguy,

They cannot be uttered in your normal voice...

Obviously, you've never *really* prayed a true intercessory prayer where you were so broken over sin in the church and the need for revival that you were soaking wet with sweat and weeping at the top of your voice?

Somethings got to come out... smile.gif

If tongues were a sign *ONLY* to the non-believer and only to the Jews why were they discoursed to the Gentile Church of Corinthians to be used for the edification of the church?

They are part of the Gifts Distributed Several to the church by the Holy Spirit for the Churches Edification...

The Manifestations of the Holy Spirit are a package group....

You cesseate one you cessate all...

Mike Sr.

Briguy
05-01-2006, 06:18 PM
SMM, because tongues were a real spiritual gift at that time, they had to edify the church because that is what spiritual "gifts" were for. They were to edify the body, NOT the individual. In a way you just argued against yourself. You are putting your own meaning into the Romans verse. "can't be uttered" means what it says. If I can't speak in english because my voice won't work, I won't be able to speak in Spanish either.

The Holy Spirit leads us in what to pray, I think you said that as well. Yes, I have wept in prayer many times. I don't recall sweating but then again I live in WI.

As for tongues usge in the body. A tongue speaker could speak in a foreign language they did not know to a individual or group of people who spoke that language. It was miraculous!! That "miracle" was the "sign" to the Jews. God's signs are a show of His power because they confirm that the message of the sign is really from God. SMM, if you could invite a russian speaking person into your church and them give him the gospel in Russian, even though you don't speak Russian, that would be a miracle. If a gifted interpreter interpreted that Russian message to the rest of the church that would be a miracle. What I just said was how the gift of tongues worked in the early church and how the whole assembly was edified by tongues. What I just described does not happen anymore and so I know the gift of tongues has long passed, just as Paul said it would.

In Christ,
Brian

SpiritualMadMan
05-01-2006, 07:38 PM
We will have to disagree Briguy... But, we both knew that already. :D

Link
05-02-2006, 02:08 AM
A real language can sound like gibberish, especially if it is repeated phrases, so I wouldn't say this isn't real tongues necessarily.

On the other hand, I do suspect that some people just learn to repeat some gibberish and think that is really speaking in tongues, psychological tongues, if you will.

I've heard speaking in tongues that sounds like real languages.

Link
05-02-2006, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Gershom:
I've read Jack Hayford who believes the practice can be taught. If it comes from the Spirit of God, why would a person have to be taught how to speak in tongues?
That would be a strange thing for a Pentecostal like Jack Heyford to believe. Pentecostals usually don't believe tongues can be taught.

Are you sure he didn't mean you can teach someone what the Bible says about being baptized with the Holy Spirit and how to open up to recieve--something along those lines? That's different from saying 'repeat after me...' What exactly did he say?

SpiritualMadMan
05-02-2006, 10:58 AM
Link, I agree it sounds strange for such a thing to be attributed to Jack Hayford...

It just doesn't sound like the Jack Hayford I've read and watched...

If any Tongues are 'taught', they are 'taught' by the Holy Spirit...

If they are 'taught' by man then they are _not_ supernatural tongues...

DHK
05-03-2006, 04:02 AM
Open you mouth wide and breath in. You are not going to receive anything more spiritually; you are now going to bring into evidence the spirit, which lives within you. Just breathe in. Open your mouth wide. While you are breathing in, thank Yahweh for having filled you with the fullness of the power of His holy spirit. Don’t beg Him; thank Him for it. When you begin to speak in tongues, move your lips, throat and tongue. Speak forth. When you have finished one sound, speak another. Do not pay any attention to what you are thinking. You formulate the words; you move your lips, throat and tongue and you say it. You are magnifying Yahweh no matter what the words sound like to your ears. It is your part to speak in tongues; it’s Yahweh’s part to give the utterance. Keep moving your lips, throat and tongue. Formulate another sound. You have to formulate the sounds differently on your lips. Father has given them to your spirit. They are in your spirit coming on your tongue. You have to speak them out. You are speaking the wonderful works of Yahweh; you are magnifying Yahweh; you are speaking in tongues. The external manifestation is your proof in the senses world that you have Christ, the Anointed One, within. Christ is your Head. You are his Body. Get bold on it; let it flow out; let it effervesce. “Out of the belly shall flow rivers of living water.” Keep on speaking. Yahweh is giving the words to your spirit; your spirit is bringing them up to your throat and you are bringing them out. Breathe in deeply and now begin to speak in tongues as I have instructed you.How To Speak in Tongues (http://www.teleiosministries.com/speakingintongues.html)

This is typical of many or most of Charismatic websites.
DHK

SpiritualMadMan
05-03-2006, 10:22 AM
Who is Chuck Cunningham?

And, what does he have to do with the conversation about Jack Hayford?

Just from you quote...

I would be leery of him...

He doesn't represent me or any of the churches I've been a part of...

Mike Sr.