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Preacher Boy88
04-26-2005, 09:42 AM
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world.

PastorGreg
04-26-2005, 10:04 AM
1. You will find a lot of intense disagreement with that opinion here.
2. Since when does God call us to be elite? Humble, Godly, holy, but elite?

HappyG
04-26-2005, 10:33 AM
Ok Preacher Boy, we have established you are not qualified to judge whether a college is good or not.

Next point?

dianetavegia
04-26-2005, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world. :rolleyes:

Dr.Tim
04-26-2005, 11:17 AM
no way.... NO. I'd say if u are looking for someting extremely basic with a lot of rules Hyles-Anderson is the place. Otherwise, forget it.

Plain Old Bill
04-26-2005, 11:23 AM
What's your connection?

Squire Robertsson
04-26-2005, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world. Have you read any of the HA threads down in the College Forum?

C4K
04-26-2005, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world. Is that because there are 12 "characters" per inch ;) ?

www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) - "elite - A size of type on a typewriter, equal to 12 characters per linear inch."

PastorGreg
04-26-2005, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world. Is that because there are 12 "characters" per inch ;) ?

www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) - "elite - A size of type on a typewriter, equal to 12 characters per linear inch." </font>[/QUOTE]graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif C4K, that was great!

4His_glory
04-26-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world. So you have been to every Bible college in the world?

Sad fact is that most fundamental Bible colleges are really Bible institutes in disquise.

DeafPosttrib
04-26-2005, 01:46 PM
Many attend Hyles-Anderson College, because of worship Late Jack Hyles as idol.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Pastor_Bob
04-26-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world. If you feel that God is leading you to attend HAC, then you have to do what the Lord tells you to do. Please do not be influenced by the negative remarks you read on this forum. Similar remarks can be and have been said about nearly every other school mentioned.

As far as attending for the purpose of "worshiping" the late Jack Hyles, that is a ludicrous, ridiculous statement that obviously comes from someone not acquainted with the college.

Hyles-Anderson College is not for everyone; but then again, no college is for everyone. If you are praying about college, get godly counsel from your Pastor, your parents, and other godly men and women that you know. I wouldn’t put too much stock in the information you read here about HAC. It has been my experience that most have a negative bias toward the late Jack Hyles and also for his successor Jack Schaap. Most of which is entirely unfounded and baseless.

I have colleges with whom I disagree on many issues, but you'll rarely see me post negative remarks about them. According to my Bible, Christians are not supposed to bring "railing accusations" against one another. For a good study on this issue, consider the following passage:

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (KJV)

Paul33
04-26-2005, 05:24 PM
On the contrary,

The negative comments on this thread may save you much grief. Go somewhere legitimate.

Your reference may very well apply to the "legendary" Jack Hyles and is cohorts.

HappyG
04-26-2005, 05:38 PM
Pastor_Bob,

There is a difference between railing accusations and honest feedback on a particular issue.

I agree.

But HAC has serious problems that cannot be defended. If someone does some research online and listens to the teachings of Schaap, it doesn't take long to uncover for yourself.

I won't make the judgements for you but if you are discerning you will hear some disturbing statements straight from the mouth of Jack Schaap.

HAC is at best a bad Bible Institute and at worst a bad Sunday School class.

Get a good education. Learn the disciplines of study and learning. Learn how to deliver full meals to your people. Candy won't satisfy or sustain for long.

Plus KJVO is a heretical position. Enough said.

But even apart from that, there are many other issues with the school and there are a 100's of other schools that provide so many better options. For a young man looking to learn how to nourish the souls of men and women and children, HAC is a bad choice.

Pastor_Bob
04-27-2005, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by HappyG:
HAC is at best a bad Bible Institute and at worst a bad Sunday School class. What year(s) did you attend?


...there are many other issues with the school and there are a 100's of other schools that provide so many better options. What year(s) did you attend?

HAC is a bad choice. What year(s) did you attend?

loving2daysyouth
04-27-2005, 01:18 PM
Obviously, you all have no experience with HAC or First Baptist whatsoever. As someone who ministers in the area, have been there for myself, and am not a Hyles-ite etc. I would tell you that you need to do more research. Jealousy arouses much contention. Perhaps the ministries you are involved in hasn't seen the Lord's hand and you are upset that their's has!

HappyG
04-27-2005, 05:50 PM
Pastor_Bob,

I will give you a little background on myself so you understand why I have come to the conclusion that HAC is not a good choice for a college.

I have no reason to be malicious or antagonistic towards HAC. In fact, it would be quite the opposite.

My father is an evangelist. He was recently flown into HAC and honored by Jack Schaap because Jack Schaap credits him with influencing him into ministry. My parents are taking a cruise in the next few weeks given to them by HAC.

I say that to say...I don't have a reason to be malicious.

My experiences with the college were during my High School years when I was in South Bend, Indiana and we were a part of a church that had multiple HAC graduates. So I experienced a ministry guided by HAC graduates. We went to a number of events at the college and a good number of my high school classmates went there.

I just disagree with the philosophy of ministry. And in fact, if you went to my youth pastor who is now the Senior Pastor at Grace Baptist Church in South Bend, Indiana and asked him if he would choose HAC again. He would say no. He would rather recieve a more well-rounded education that included the languages and better educational training and a different philosophy of ministry.

I attended Maranatha Baptist Bible College in Watertown, Wi and Calvary Baptist Seminary in Lansdale, Pa. I wouldn't choose either of those schools today either but that is another point.

As far as researching what goes on there:

http://www.baptist-city.com/classic_schaap.htm

Just listen to the sermon America America if you want to know why I think getting an education at HAC is a bad choice.

This isn't malicious. It is factual. You look at the leader of an organization to make a decision such as the college you will attend.

Not to mention the organization is KJVO. How a college who teaches the original languages could be KJVO is beyond me. Well, I guess they don't really teach the original languages and that is another major problem.

4His_glory
04-27-2005, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
Obviously, you all have no experience with HAC or First Baptist whatsoever. As someone who ministers in the area, have been there for myself, and am not a Hyles-ite etc. I would tell you that you need to do more research. Jealousy arouses much contention. Perhaps the ministries you are involved in hasn't seen the Lord's hand and you are upset that their's has! You are assuming that anyone who does not like HAC is jealous. There is nothing wrong with pointing out difficulties with any institution.

Also to say that God has blessed FBC Hammond because of the growth etc. is wrong. Numbers are not a sign of God's blessing. If that were the case then God sure has blessed the Roman Catholic Church!

CoachC
04-27-2005, 09:21 PM
I've read many threads here bashing Dr. Hyles and HAC. It seems almost a badge of honor to some to slam Dr. Hyles and characterize the graduates as mind numbed robots. I want to just share some thoughts with the esteemed readers of this thread.

I came out of college and even though I had been saved at a revival as a young child, I was never taught, my family went away from church.

A graduate of HAC had started a church near my hometown in Ohio and invited me to church. The preaching, the spirit in that place and love I received as a part of that church is the most Christ like experience I have had in my walk with the Lord.

I was more blessed in that time then in my many years in other churches.

I understand Dr. Hyles had flaws and many problems. I know his son is very messed up. It doesn't matter..... I have chosen to forgive. A little forgiveness would seem to be a very Christ like activity.

You may disagree with the teaching and that is your right. I would submit that not every Hyles graduate is strictly regurgitating the party line. To say so is one of those blanket statements that are almost never true.

I'm thankful for Jack Hyles because one of his preacher boys showed me the importance of following, seeking and growing toward Christ.

I would never tell you to not expose what you believe is error. I would ask that maybe you correct without so much joy as you hammer and berate.

A wise man, in fact the wisest of men once said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone.". Christ was the only one there without sin and he didn't cast the stone.

Thanks for your time.

Timtoolman
04-27-2005, 10:37 PM
Last time I heard Jack Hyles speak myself and a graduate from there had to walk out. He was speaking at Midwestern Baptist College. In his message he stated that he had to sacrafice his son for the ministry. That one day he was pouring over his long list of invatations to speak and he went to his son, who was young at that time. He said if I start taking these speaking engagements your dad will be so busy that I will not be able to play ball with you or attend your games. You will be on your own alot. Then after the service young people gave thier testimonies. One after the other for an hour we listen. Everyone of them, EVERYONE spoke about or praised Dr so and so. NOt one ever mention Jesus Christ or God. Mentioned His blessings or what He had done for tghem. No they praised men for an hour before we left. I understand they were there another hour after we left. Certainly was not a worship service for God. My friend who is a pastor out in CA was sadden but he still loved the man. Men are not perfect thus they do fall away. I don't hate the man or the college. I think the new crop of pastors coming up ought to show some respect for these men because God did use them. Hyles, Malone,Rice, Jones. But I find them being disrespectful. They have found a new and better gospel that is perfect. Sad to say it is mostly calvinist.

Paul33
04-27-2005, 11:07 PM
Timtoolman,

Have you ever heard of paragraphs?

Timtoolman
04-27-2005, 11:23 PM
Paul you got anything to say that deals with the subject?

Paul33
04-28-2005, 11:59 AM
Tim,

Can you write a coherent sentence or two and put them in a paragraph?

You graduated from Hyles-Anderson, right?

loving2daysyouth
04-28-2005, 01:17 PM
When I refer to growth, I'm not talking numbers. A good part of our church are those who left FBC looking for somewhere that is balanced.
I get tired of folks bashing in ignorance/jealousy, and yes, I will call it that.
Dr. Schaap will change things there. Archive this post and mark my words. Things will not be the same as they were. (Just look at the painting of Hyles & wife on the side of the building, wait a minute, it's not there anymore!) He is a great man of God who is doing the best with what God has entrusted him with!

Why do we choose to rip apart men who may/may not agree with us? Does this give us an upper hand in a debate? I don't get it.

Preacher Boy88
04-28-2005, 01:50 PM
No other college has had the number of pastoral and ministerial successes like HAC. FBCH is awesome! Name me another church that states a goal to distribute 1000 Missionaries across the globe or to try to baptize 25,000 a year.

loving2daysyouth
04-28-2005, 02:19 PM
Remember, there is some "number fudging" that goes on there also. I've caught it many times, but yes, they do have an outstanding ministry.

Timtoolman
04-28-2005, 06:45 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul33:
Tim,

Can you write a coherent sentence or two and put them in a paragraph?

You graduated from Hyles-Anderson, right? [/QUO

Hey Paul, here's one. TAKE A HIKE. You need to learn some manners. Are you in the ministry? From reading your posts that is a scary thought!

I wish people would stop being cowards and talk like they are talking face to face with someone. Cause I know for sure Paul would not talk to me like that! Not face too face! graemlins/thumbs.gif

Paul33
04-28-2005, 07:18 PM
Tim,

Yes, I would.

If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to write. You claim to have graduated from Hyles-Anderson. You're not representing your school well.

So when someone corrects you or rebukes you for writing poorly, your only response is "Take a hike." Is this a typical reaction from a Hyles graduate?

Paul33
04-28-2005, 07:24 PM
Loving2,

Jack Hyles claimed to have preached 50,000 sermons. Schaap claims to have preached around 30,000.

Do the math! Both Hyles and Schaap are claiming to have preached three sermons a day, 365 days a year for 50 years (Hyles), or in Schaap's case, 30 years.

What utter nonsense. If they lie about how many times they preach, which can be easily challenged, what else are they lying about?

What kind of person needs to lie about how many times they preach? The same kind that need to lie about how many they "saved?"

Go figure.

Timtoolman
04-28-2005, 07:28 PM
[ April 28, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Timtoolman ]

Scott J
04-28-2005, 07:31 PM
Tim, as politely and humbly as I can...

Regardless of Paul's approach, the long post you made above was very difficult to follow because of the way you wrote it.

I am not looking for a fight but the criticism was valid. As one who is interested in what you have to say, I had a difficult time discerning exactly what it was you were trying to say.

Scott J
04-28-2005, 07:34 PM
I have had experiences with two HAC grads. One was a true blue believer. His ministry is characterized by the numbers game, easy-believism, and KJVO.

The other has taken a dim view of the school and in particular Hyles when he was alive. Doctrine aside, Hyles ego was a big problem in this pastor's view.

Paul33
04-28-2005, 07:44 PM
To Tim and others,

I called Tim on the phone and we had a good discussion. I apologized to Tim for not being clear in my criticism. I only meant to say that I had a hard time following his comments and encouraged him to write in paragraphs. I can see that my approach to him was "offensive" and less than helpful.

Timtoolman
04-28-2005, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Scott J:
Tim, as politely and humbly as I can...

Regardless of Paul's approach, the long post you made above was very difficult to follow because of the way you wrote it.

I am not looking for a fight but the criticism was valid. As one who is interested in what you have to say, I had a difficult time discerning exactly what it was you were trying to say. Thanks Scott for a more polite approach to this.I do get on here and punch out a message sometimes without putting much time in it. Will work on it.

Timtoolman
04-28-2005, 08:38 PM
Scott I will retype this to make it clear since you said you were interested in what I had to say.

I had a friend who I went to Midwestern Baptist College with. His name was Rich. He transferred to Hyles after his freshmen year. This was in 1979. Later after he graduated He went to work in a church in Washington State. Our Church here in Lake Orion was looking for a youth pastor (1994) I called him and the pastor hired him.

Later we attended a Bible conference at MBC where Jack Hyles spoke. He preached a message that basically said he sacrificed his son David for the ministry. One night he said he had laid out all of the invitations he had to speak around the country. He took his son David and showed them all to him. He said “ son if I take these speaking engagements I will not be playing ball with you or attending your games but will be on the road.” To which his son replied “dad you must do what God wants you to do.” Thus the whole message was how he had to ignore his son to do the Lords works.

After the message there was testimony time. Many many teens went forward to get in front of the mike and share. However this turned into praise for men time. Teen after teen went up and praised Dr. so and so without one, and I am not exaggerating here, not one mention Christ or God. This went on for an hour with many teens yet to speak. My friend Rich and I left. I understand the service went for another hour after that. My friend was very disappointed in his mentor but still had praise for him.

I was not sharing this because I hate the man. He spoke many times at our college and was right on. I do find it distasteful that many of the new pastors are irreverent of the old timers. Like Rice, Malone, Hyles, Jones, Hudson. I think God used these men greatly in their time. I know people from DBTS seem to mock these men and criticize without acknowledging how God used them. Dbts is Calvinistic and that seems to play into it.

That is all, I was just sharing. No man is perfect. Hey if you think you are write a book. Put your words out there before all men and see how imperfect and incorrect you are.

4His_glory
04-28-2005, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
No other college has had the number of pastoral and ministerial successes like HAC. FBCH is awesome! Name me another church that states a goal to distribute 1000 Missionaries across the globe or to try to baptize 25,000 a year. Baptize 25,000 a year? Yeah and how many are active members of their churches? Very few. I have known to many Hyles missioanries to know that they fudge numbers all the time to make themselves look good. They will boast of hundreds being saved at rate that you would think all of Africa would be evangelized by now.

You know what my biggest problem with HAC is? They are man-centered plain and simple. That is my Jack Hyles and other men are elevated to the status of "Baptist Saints". That is why they give huge numbers of people being saved and baptized. That is why they are so arrogant and stuck on themselves.

Call this a bash if you want, but the fact is that as soon as you point to ANYTHING wrong with Jack Hyles, HAC, or First Baptist Hammond to thoes who are followers, they will jump down your throat.


I would say the easy-believeism of HAC as kept more people in bondage and ubelief than has done good.

Timtoolman
04-28-2005, 09:27 PM
Perceptions are a funny animal.

Terry_Herrington
04-28-2005, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
Hyles Anderson College is the most elite Bible College in the world. graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif

Terry_Herrington
04-28-2005, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Preacher Boy88:
No other college has had the number of pastoral and ministerial successes like HAC. FBCH is awesome! Name me another church that states a goal to distribute 1000 Missionaries across the globe or to try to baptize 25,000 a year. graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif

gb93433
04-28-2005, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Paul33:
Loving2,

Jack Hyles claimed to have preached 50,000 sermons. Schaap claims to have preached around 30,000.

Do the math! Both Hyles and Schaap are claiming to have preached three sermons a day, 365 days a year for 50 years (Hyles), or in Schaap's case, 30 years.

What utter nonsense. If they lie about how many times they preach, which can be easily challenged, what else are they lying about?

What kind of person needs to lie about how many times they preach? The same kind that need to lie about how many they "saved?"

Go figure. Sounds like they should have quit dreaming a long time ago and started preaching to themsleves what their congregations heard.

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 01:20 PM
If anyone knows the numbers game, it would be me. Trust me, you are merely proving my point. I am not aware of the claims made by the two pastors, nor do I really care. I'm sure that we've all lied about something in our lives!

Here's my point, I do know that they are a soul-winning life-changing church. Not all agree, but, if you have been around it like I (who am not a grad. nor a "follower") You have to admit it!

The issue is, discipleship, or lack of.

Scott J
04-29-2005, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
If anyone knows the numbers game, it would be me. Trust me, you are merely proving my point. I am not aware of the claims made by the two pastors, nor do I really care. I'm sure that we've all lied about something in our lives! Huh? It's OK that these guys make these kinds of boastful lies because "everybody" does it? Would they accept that kind of logic if one said: "It's OK for Christian women to wear shorts in public... everybody does it"? I don't think so.

I have told lies in my life. But it is my habit and conviction to own up to those lies to God and as often as possible to the person I deceived. Some people in business have thought I was being silly for confessing what most would consider meaningless "white" lies.

I don't buy that there are white lies nor can I imagine that men who lie without remore or repentance possess godly, high character.

Here's my point, I do know that they are a soul-winning life-changing church. Not all agree, but, if you have been around it like I (who am not a grad. nor a "follower") You have to admit it! That doesn't excuse the very serious problems if the allegations are true. I have read reports that claim that kids were bussed in from south Chicago, given treats, led as a group in the "sinner's prayer", asked to sign a card, then taken back home. They supposedly counted all of them as conversions.

The issue is, discipleship, or lack of. Yes. But if the report I saw was true... there is also a problem of pushing for false conversions. Some of those kids may have gone away with the impression that saying some words and signing a card saved them. If so, they are effectively innoculated from ever being truly born again.

My personal experience with HAC associated people is limited so if this information is flawed please feel free to correct it.

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 01:45 PM
You people here read too much into posts. Trying to argue every little point!

I'm not putting a stamp of approval on lying. I never did. Just proving a point, men make mistakes.

However, these "reports" probably come from an anti-Hyles or whatever you want to call it group. I told you, I agree with the number fudging and all that, but in that mess, there are, believe it or not, lives being change and sincere conversions.

Good grief, who died and made you all judge? I'd be afraid to do that if I were you!

gb93433
04-29-2005, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
You people here read too much into posts. Trying to argue every little point!

I'm not putting a stamp of approval on lying. I never did. Just proving a point, men make mistakes.

However, these "reports" probably come from an anti-Hyles or whatever you want to call it group. I told you, I agree with the number fudging and all that, but in that mess, there are, believe it or not, lives being change and sincere conversions.

Good grief, who died and made you all judge? I'd be afraid to do that if I were you! So you think nobody can do math right? You can go to a Hyles website and listen for yourself coming from his mouth.

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 02:24 PM
Well, in this case, it is better to bow out than continue a discussion. And yes, you can take this as "you win" and beat yourself on the chest, when in reality, I'm choosing not to attack a man who has been used of God, probably more than I ever will be!

Who are we to say he never preached that many messages? Oh that's right, you've been there, you read the reports, you can do the math.

I'll tell you what I believe to be ridiculous, is people who sit on the internet and in their little S.S. classes and tear apart men who are trying to serve God. Why? Jealousy, envy, misunderstanding. Go ahead, tell me, "It's no misunderstanding, listen to it on their website."

You folks here have got some serious issues!

gb93433
04-29-2005, 02:35 PM
Sometime read http://www.geocities.com/markharshman@sbcglobal.net/soulwin.htm

and do the math.

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 02:37 PM
Good, using a geocities website.

Again, who's to say that they didn't write/preach that many messages?

I assume that's what this "accurate" website is going to tell me, right?

gb93433
04-29-2005, 02:39 PM
A man of God?

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/general.htm

Hyles' reported love affair with his secretary (allegedly begun in 1969), the wife of a deacon at FBCH, is well documented -- "These were passionate love notes from Jack Hyles to Jennie [Nischik], all signed 'Your aching guy, Jack!' They expressed undying love, telling Jennie that she was the only woman he loved. ... There were references to secret meetings with him in different places" (The Wizard of God: My Life With Jack Hyles, by Victor Nischik, pp. 57- 58). Victor Nischik also writes, "... my home was tampered with and my marriage deliberately wrecked by Jack Hyles. He stole my wife, her loyalty and affection, and when the divorce hung in balance, [Hyles] unilaterally met with the two attorneys and negotiated the divorce settlement." The latter meeting took place only eight days after Hyles' deposition was taken under oath, and just 12 days before the case was to be heard in court. The divorce (1986) was finalized two weeks to the day from Hyles' deposition! (The Biblical Evangelist, 5/1/89). [Hyles continually denied all of Nischik's charges, but after I viewed the devastating WJBK-TV report (see below), Nischik's assertions ring true. Hyles' response to the exposé was to charge Nischik with being a womanizer and a homosexual. (Source: "Dr. Jack Hyles Replies," 1990 letter to FBCH mailing list.)

gb93433
04-29-2005, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
Good, using a geocities website.

Again, who's to say that they didn't write/preach that many messages?

I assume that's what this "accurate" website is going to tell me, right? Maybe you would rather read http://jackhyles.net/enemies.shtml

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 02:42 PM
Again, old news. I guess David wasn't a man after God's own heart either, was he?

I'm not defending sin, just morons who in their self-proclaimed righteousness judge others and their ministries.

Yet another he said she said mud-flinging contest of which you merely read in books and I am personally friends with those involved. Thanks for spreading your propaganda, but take it somewhere else.

gb93433
04-29-2005, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
Again, old news. I guess David wasn't a man after God's own heart either, was he?

I'm not defending sin, just morons who in their self-proclaimed righteousness judge others and their ministries.

Yet another he said she said mud-flinging contest of which you merely read in books and I am personally friends with those involved. Thanks for spreading your propaganda, but take it somewhere else. Didn't David repent of his sin. Did Hyles?

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 02:45 PM
You tell me, since you knew him so well. And yes, I do.

gb93433
04-29-2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
Again, old news. I guess David wasn't a man after God's own heart either, was he?

I'm not defending sin, just morons who in their self-proclaimed righteousness judge others and their ministries.

Yet another he said she said mud-flinging contest of which you merely read in books and I am personally friends with those involved. Thanks for spreading your propaganda, but take it somewhere else. So you don't believe all scripture is ninspired by God when is written in Acts 17:11, "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

If what Hyles said was true that he won so many to Christ he is condemned by his own words by egotistically telling people that and elevating himself.

I detected that one time when I first listened to a sermon on soul winning by him over the internet. That sermon is removed from the website it once was at.

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 02:54 PM
Listen, you need to stick to the subject. You have no grounds to attack my faith in the Book. You refuse to answer questions, your arguments are ridiculous and absurd and so far, I have seen nothing worth continuing this discussion over. Here's a suggestion: get offline, go door-to-door for a while.

If anything, it is your ego in the way of a decent discussion. So, instead, you attack others including myself. I told you and will again. I don't agree with everything there, nor would I with you, but I am accountable to God for my ministry, not FBC, not in Iowa but here in my neck of the woods.

Congrats on finding the downfall in others, now, I'd be confessing the sin of judging others!

gb93433
04-29-2005, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
You tell me, since you knew him so well. And yes, I do. So are you saying what is written is absolutely wrong? Certainly if that is true why have you not filed lawsuits against those who would libel another. If you would allow such things then you are as guilty of the liar too by allowing it to continue. To refuse to take a stance is like a person who sits by and denies the person. Just like Peter who denied Jesus three times. So what will you do to prove those who have written such things as wrong. Or is your evidence like Joseph Smith claimed?

Do you think the love notes by a man's wife are enough evidence or do you think the man's wife is crazy and made it all up. If he did then you should file a lawsuit for such libel for defammation of character of both Hyles and his wife.

Why be a whimp? Step up to the plate and make your case.

Many of the mothers of those on death row say the same things as you. But the courts have made their case otherwise.

loving2daysyouth
04-29-2005, 03:06 PM
It's not my battle to fight. I know what I know. To me, the issue is not Hyles, it's the heart of those who attack him. My Bible teaches that taking another brother to court is not right. So, by faith, I'll do just that.

I am aware of the scandals of not only Hyles but of his sons etc. stuff that you will never know, but I refuse to judge or have a part in a bashing party with fools. I have no stance to take, except, if one of our teens chooses HAC, I will support he/she, knowing they are going to an institution that teaches the Word.

Until then, have a nice day fighting useless battles and racking up nothing as far as rewards in heaven. Again, take this as "you win" but I bow out gracefully. Beat your chest, chalk another one up for "GB" and when you stand before Christ and give an account for bashing others who have gone before you, have fun explaining that to Him.

I bet, you will have a mansion right next to Dr. Hyles!

graemlins/wave.gif

gb93433
04-29-2005, 03:26 PM
The role of a Christian is to stand for righteousness.

So are you willing to let slide what you know as scandals and unrighteousness?

If nobody had taken a stance against the unrighteousness of slavery and segregation we would still have it today.

So many denominations have taken the cpomplacent stance and let liberalism slide and you see where they are today.

Those men who are involved in scandals, etc. need to be held accountable for their own sake and those they lead.

Don't you think the world sees the unrighteousness and scandals while Christians stand by and watch. It is the Christians who should say something first.

By associating with that group and not saying anything you will become just like them if you are not already.

1 Cor. 15:33, "Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

Wasn't it Jesus who turned over the tax gatherers tables? What had they done to the house of God?

It seems to me that Gal 6:1 is still inspired by God and applicable for today.

I Am Blessed 24
04-29-2005, 03:58 PM
Are you still bashing Jack Hyles and his church/college? Unbelievable!

No one knows if he repented or not, so no one has the right to judge.

David comitted murder and adultery and God STILL called him a man after His own heart.

I had two children attend that college and my daughter and family STILL attend that church.

Unless you have been there and know first hand what went/goes on - you need to just pray and ask God why you are still attacking a dead man.

It's just like any other church. If you find a perfect one, they probably won't let you in...

Unless you believe everything you read in a newspaper, you shouldn't believe everything you hear about other people.

Here is a web site I will never see a Hyles-hater post:

http://jackhyles.net/

Scott J
04-29-2005, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
You people here read too much into posts. Trying to argue every little point!

I'm not putting a stamp of approval on lying. I never did. Just proving a point, men make mistakes. Those kinds of boastful lies go beyond a simple "mistake" and point to significant character flaws- not the least of which are pride, self-centeredness, and egotism. These kinds of statements are not simply lies... they are lies specifically intended to create an inflated impression of the liar himself.

This is a much bigger deal than you are seeing.

However, these "reports" probably come from an anti-Hyles or whatever you want to call it group. They came from a couple purporting to be former bus captains for FBCH. I told you, I agree with the number fudging and all that, but in that mess, there are, believe it or not, lives being change and sincere conversions. Yes you did. And I also don't think we will ever see a perfect ministry. But at the same time, the ends don't justify the means. There seems to be patterns within this branch of Baptists that are disturbing and testify poorly.

Good grief, who died and made you all judge? I'd be afraid to do that if I were you! Good grief! Where did I say anyone had made me judge?

God uses alot of bad things to accomplish good things. But that doesn't mean that we can justify the bad just because God makes good out of it.

Scott J
04-29-2005, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
Again, old news. I guess David wasn't a man after God's own heart either, was he?

I'm not defending sin, just morons who in their self-proclaimed righteousness judge others and their ministries. "Judge not lest ye be judged"? I have seen you judge unjustly and without direct knowledge several times here in only a few weeks.

The latest case was when you accused Doc Cassidy of having problems in his ministry because you didn't like the way he stated his proof that you were wrong.

In actuality, there is no need for judgment only recognition of sin. God already said that what Hyles was accused of and might have covered up was sin.

A godly man would have confessed his sin and dealt with it... witness Dr Rod Bell's behavior when his secret sin was exposed. While not an egomaniac who missed no opportunity to draw attention to himself, Bell's ministry and influence were in the same league as Hyles. Both men had a great deal to give up from a purely selfish point of view. One did the right thing. The other we are not sure about...

Scott J
04-29-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Are you still bashing Jack Hyles and his church/college? Unbelievable!

No one knows if he repented or not, so no one has the right to judge. We know that he didn't publicly repent... nor step down from being pastor since (if guilty) he was most certainly not "above reproach" nor a "one woman man".

David comitted murder and adultery and God STILL called him a man after His own heart. David lamented his sin. His repentance was public. Though he was exposed rather than volunteering... he didn't continue to cover up Hyles may well have done.

David acknowledged his guilt and worthiness to be punished.

These two men were not of the same heart if Hyles did have an affair with that woman.
Unless you have been there and know first hand what went/goes on - you need to just pray and ask God why you are still attacking a dead man. He is either worthy of the influence he still has or else he is not. This debate neither started nor ended with his death.

Unless you believe everything you read in a newspaper, you shouldn't believe everything you hear about other people. That is absolutely true. The accusations of adultery and covering up his son's sexual problems may be absolutely false... but he behaved like a guilty man.

Here is a web site I will never see a Hyles-hater post:

http://jackhyles.net/ I don't and didn't hate Hyles. I seldom thought or think of him except when I run into those who hold a high view of him and willfully ignore his very serious flaws.

I hope he was forgiven of God and that we see him in heaven. But (if guilty) his repentance was never complete. His qualifications for being the pastor of FBCH hinged on the truth of the adultery allegations. That congregation deserved a straight forward truthful accounting of the charges and facts.

Maybe some of you know- did he ever definitively say in no uncertain terms that he did not have an adulterous affair with the woman?

I Am Blessed 24
04-29-2005, 06:43 PM
Scott: You sound like a fair and just man. Please check out this web site. It will answer many of the questions you may have.

CLICK HERE (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/pastor_jack_hyles_defended.htm)

Terry_Herrington
04-29-2005, 07:05 PM
It never ceases to amaze my how many people will support a snake in the grass like Hyles. He was a con-man who used the pulpit as an easy way to make a living. Even his preaching was contrary to what the Bible says, let alone his lifestyle.

Since he used his position to lure a wife away from her own husband, Hyles should have been put to death years ago. I know that if it had been my wife, I would probably be writing this from prison. I certainly would not spend my time defending his behavior, but this is what I have come to expect from hyper-fundamentalist.

Hyles was a hypocrite, plain and simple!

Dr.Tim
04-29-2005, 07:06 PM
Jack Hyles did not sleep with Nitschik's wife. The man, under oath in court, was bluntly asked...Do you believe that the Mr. Hyles had sex with your wife? He answered, "No". Hyles slept with one woman in his life, his wife. No other accusations have been made, as far as I know.
How can a man defend himself against such accusations? The man said he did not sleep with the lady. The lady said the same thing. The accuser answered under oath that he was NOT accusing Hyles of having sex with the man's wife.
Just wanted to make that clear.

Still adultery? I dont know, but he slept with one woman in his life, his own wife.

I Am Blessed 24
04-29-2005, 07:28 PM
It never ceases to amaze my how many people will take rumors, gossip, and false accusations against a man, as gospel, without finding out the truth first.

Why should ANYone have to defend themselves against false accusations?

As far as Jack Hyles using the pulpit as an easy way to make a living; have YOU ever tried being on call 24/7?

That man gave away millions of dollars to people in need, as well as missionaries. He thanked God he had the money to give. He did not even own a car!

Terry_Herrington
04-30-2005, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
As far as Jack Hyles using the pulpit as an easy way to make a living; have YOU ever tried being on call 24/7?Yes, I have. And, I will put the work I have done in my life against anything Hyles ever did.

Terry_Herrington
04-30-2005, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
That man gave away millions of dollars to people in need, as well as missionaries. He thanked God he had the money to give. He did not even own a car! Did he give his money away or was it mostly church money?

Paul33
04-30-2005, 01:20 AM
Reference to three depositions:

One responsible minister of unquestioned integrity, who read each of them, noted this about Hyles:

"Here is what I observed from Dr. Hyles deposition taken on May 1, 1986: He said that . . .
"He buys Mrs. Nischik a new automobile every two years.
"He loaned Mrs. Nischik $35,000 in which to invest so that she could derive interest from it.
"He gave her a gift of $ 10,000."
"He bought aluminum siding for the Nischik house
"He gave Vic Nischik approximately $11,000 in order for him to have a room added to his house (pages 40-42)."He wrote about Jennie's:

"This is what I observed from Mrs. Nischik's deposition taken on February 5, 1986:
"Over approximately the last eighteen years . . .
"[Hyles] purchased her a new automobile (usually Buick or Oldsmobile) every other year for about the last eighteen years. . .
" Paid for the insurance on the automobiles . . .
" Paid for the driveway for the Nischik's house . . .
" Paid for the air conditioner for the Nischik's house . . .
" Gave $5,000 for her daughter Judy's education.
" Gave $11,000 to build a room onto the Nischik's house . . .
" Paid for a second telephone for the Nischik's house, a 'business' phone in her bedroom"

Writing about Vic's he said:

"And then I observed some things from Vic Nischik's deposition which was taken on March 10, 1986. He said ...
"When their house in Munster was bought in 1968, that you were the one who negotiated the purchase. Vic said that he was never a party to the contract. That was 7 years after they were married, having married in 1961 . . . . "

This deal was certainly a strange one since Vic never paid a dime on it, never even signed the contract, nor did he have any say in selecting the floor plan. That house, by the way, was at 8219 on one street and the Hyles residence was at 8232 on the street behind it. The two houses could be viewed at the time-with lights flashed as signals-although trees have since blocked it.

We are not quoting more from his evaluation because the matters omitted are faced elsewhere in this paper. Since those depositions were made, in the Fall following the divorce, Jennie moved into a brand new beautiful condominium, paid for in cash to the tune of $150,000. While this may not come under the classification of supporting a mistress, it certainly is an excellent imitation! Hyles explains is as being due to his naturally generous character - a matter we do not deny, although we have a right to reserve our own opinion about why he is so generous.

The Nischiks had a 2,000-square foot house in an affluent section of Munster, unofficially appraised in mid-1981 at $125,000. After the 1971 fiasco, Mrs. Nischik was totally responsible for all expenses pertaining to the residence – house payments, taxes, insurance, utilities, upkeep, weekly cleaning lady, food, clothes, school tuition and everything else involved – all on her small secretarial salary. The daughter said they were never "wanting" and "always had very nice things," adding that she hated most of them because she knew why she had them and where they came from. "Hush money," she called it.

Yet it is important to remember that Vic only paid "rent," set by Hyles, of $250 a month until the room over the garage was added, then the " rent" went up to $268.34 to cover the extra expense of the maid cleaning an additional room, Vic, whose take-home pay was two or three times hers, said in a statement he was not permitted to present to the deacons, "Under no circumstances could I have been able to provide for her such a high life style." He also charged at that time, "Jack Hyles insisted that the financial support for Jennie be his responsibility," and noted that "annual vacations were provided for her," as well as "indications that substantial funds were being accumulated for future needs," concluding his marriage was wrecked "by a constant inflow of unaccounted cash."

When we asked Judy Nischik Johnson if she knew anything about Hyles her mother money, she replied, "Yes, I do. Everything that was provided when I was growing up was money that somehow mysteriously appeared to my mother." Without her seeing him put it in her mother's hand, she said she "knew it came from him," adding that she sometimes saw large amounts of cash lying round.

Perhaps a word would be in order about the large sums of unaccounted cash Hyles dispenses – with no records of any kind. By his own statement, he does not deposit his speaking honorariums in the bank, cashing them instead and disbursing them as he chooses – doing the same with gifts from "friends" across the country – and there is no record kept of the monies or of their distribution.

Askjo
04-30-2005, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by Dr.Tim:
Jack Hyles did not sleep with Nitschik's wife. The man, under oath in court, was bluntly asked...Do you believe that the Mr. Hyles had sex with your wife? He answered, "No". Hyles slept with one woman in his life, his wife. No other accusations have been made, as far as I know.
How can a man defend himself against such accusations? The man said he did not sleep with the lady. The lady said the same thing. The accuser answered under oath that he was NOT accusing Hyles of having sex with the man's wife.
Just wanted to make that clear.

Still adultery? I dont know, but he slept with one woman in his life, his own wife. I suggest you to get a book by a famous lawyer who was faithful to Hyles church nearly 20 years. This lawyer knows Jack Hyles very well. I read this book and was awestruck to learn about Jack Hyles plus his own son Dave Hyles.

"Fundamental Seduction"
The Jack Hyles Case

By Voyle A Glover
Attorney at Law

This book is incredible because after reading this book, you will see the result. This book is a must for YOU, Dr. Tim.

Another book explains about Victor and Jack in their secret life that NO ONE KNOWS.

"Wizard of God"
My life with Jack Hyles

By Victor Nischik

Get these books and READ from cover to cover!

DeafPosttrib
04-30-2005, 09:16 AM
Deaf pastor David Hanson from Kansas City, MO. He told me lot details of Jack Hyles. David Hanson's church is hosting DBFA this year for DBFA's 25th Anniversary.

Anyway. David Hanson told me, he lost in respect of Dr. Hyles.

Dr. Jack Hyles was the President of Colorado Bible College in 1980's. He resigned as President of Colorado Bible College in 1985, and obivously, he escaped away from being catch find of sin by commit adultery with that secertary. During that early 1980's, Hyles did invlove with secertary as relationship.

Also, Hyles fears that many might find out the details records and informations that he was invlove with secertary. So, he told his staffs at Colarado Baptist College, and also First Baptist Church of Hammond, to get rid all recipts, records, letters, details relationshp between him and secertary Mrs. Nischik. He does not want people to know the facts that he was invlove with her.

Several years ago, I did caught book, or newspaper mentioned that Dr. Hyles was President at Colorado Baptist College. Somehow recently, any sites on the internet that Dr. Hyles was removed from the history that he was President at Colorado Baptist College.

I did research Colrado Baptist College history. It says, its name changed to different name of college in year 1985. I am no doubt that Dr. Hyles resigned that college in that year(consider, he was fled away from being caught find sin).

My question, who influenced David Hyles to commit adultery more than 20 women? No doubt, his Dad influenced him.

I was at Dr. Hyles' furneral. I watched Ms. Beverly Hyles gave her testimony about her husband. She said, Jack Hyles went to see the doctor check up his heart. Doctor warned him, that he will have major heart attack. Jack told Beverly, not to telling anyone. So, Jack and Beveraly both kept secert for 5 years! I figured out, 5 years between 2001 and 1996.

I learned that I read Sword of the Lord newspaper, Hyles-Anderson College was put in it for the advertistement about HAC. Dr. Hyles was so boast about his church claims, over 57,000 souls saved during year, 15,000 converted during a single Sunday service, claims over 10,000 baptisms during year. etc.... Kim Remple- Reggie's wife told me, our pastor was angry at Hyles about the advertistment in Sword of the Lord. He said, Hyles is being filled of pride and bull. I agree with pastor was right on Hyles.

In year 1996, and 1997, Hyles was keep on boasting about his church and college for the numbers of souls saved and baptisms, etc... And I do not like his church claims, 'World's Largest Sunday School'. That was his pride. Where's over 100,000 or 200,000 members go within 40 years under his ministry at that church? Numbers mean nothing to me. That church and college both are lack on discipleship. They focus on soul winning, and "Easy Believism". They allow thousands of people astray away back to the world again because of lack on discipleship.

Dr. Hyles claims, he won over 700,000 souls in his personal soul winning throughout his lifetime. I don't buy his claim. Only Lord knows him.

Let you know, I am highly respect Dr. Lee Roberson than Dr. Hyles. Why? Because Dr. Lee Roberson refuses being boast about the numbers at his church and college. He was very humble, and he's a truly godly man. I like his attitude.

Bible oftens teaching us, that we ought always be humble, just serving the Lord. I rather surprise in the judgement day to show the result what I am serving the Lord on earth throughout my life, than write down the records how many souls saved, I witnessed them to Christ, etc...

Hey,

There are so PLENTY good Indpendent Fundamental Baptist colleges out in America, why not you try to visit them, not just for Hyles-Anderson College. You better looking up on the Lord, not look on man such as Dr. Jack Hyles. Ask God, for His guide where He wants you to go college, better follow the Lord. Lord knows your life, He knows what to do with you, better listen to him.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

gb93433
04-30-2005, 12:50 PM
There is a problem with pride when a group writes on its website, "This church has a membership of over 100,000 and averaged 10,000 baptisms per year for the last five years of his ministry. For many years, the church has been acclaimed to have the "World's Largest Sunday School." During Dr. Hyles' ministry, First Baptist Church increased in property value from $70,000 to over $70,000,000.
Source: http://www.hylesanderson.com/drhyles.php


My Bible reads, "Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling."

We need to be careful who we associate with so that we do not become like them.

Bad company corrupts good morals.

I Am Blessed 24
04-30-2005, 01:01 PM
Exactly what is wrong with church growth?

If a church is not growing - something is wrong.

Terry_Herrington
04-30-2005, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
If a church is not growing - something is wrong. I don't believe this to be true. A church should be judged by its love for the Lord, its beliefs, and its compassion towards others, not according to how many people attend it.

Paul33
04-30-2005, 03:10 PM
I say this tepidly.

I wonder how many souls are in hell today because of Jack Hyles' ministry of easy believism and spirit of pride?

When the rich young ruler walked away from his encounter with Jesus he walked away "sorrowfully." He knew what was keeping him from following Jesus, his sin.

We need to take seriously the words of Christ in response to the one who claims, "Didn't I cast out demons in your name?" And Jesus replied, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

The moral carnage that is evident in the ministry of FBC and Hyles-Anderson College is heartbreaking. Even if there were no moral shortcomings, the sin of "pride" alone would bring God's judgement.

Pastor_Bob
04-30-2005, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Terry_Herrington
I will put the work I have done in my life against anything Hyles ever did. Originally posted by gb93433
My Bible reads, "Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling."

We need to be careful who we associate with so that we do not become like them.Sounds like good advice to me.

Askjo
04-30-2005, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
My question, who influenced David Hyles to commit adultery more than 20 women? No doubt, his Dad influenced him. True, the fact is that Jack told ALL male students to "GET hands OFF from girls" because of his son Dave Hyles. They must NOT touch girl's body. ALL deaf male students and members MUST wave their hands in front of deaf girl's face. A true story is a deaf church under John Clark. John carried deaf members to my home church for a revival. A deaf female student of HAC was a singer. I tapped my fingers on her shoulder. She got ANGRY at me and bawled me out, saying, "do NOT touch!" Many deaf people in my church saw that happens. Guess what? They lost their interest in my deaf church. My deaf church collapsed later. From 250 deaf people to 0. ZERO!!!!

gb93433
04-30-2005, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Exactly what is wrong with church growth?

If a church is not growing - something is wrong. I know of a church in Indiana that gives vouchers and toys to kids who come to church. That church is growing in numbers.

Dr.Tim
04-30-2005, 08:17 PM
The "hands off" rule is a good rule in some ways. However, i think it is STUPID when a person grows up in a deaf family and is accustomed to tapping people on shoulder to get attention and then having some KID from Hyles church come and tell you keep hands off girls. One of them did that to me and I told him he was a KID and he shouldnt be telling adults what to do.
I was struck by a car.. was on crutches for two weeks and was trying to catch upwith one of my female members of my church and i reached out and touched her on shoulder. One of the Hyles preacher boys came and told me not touch. I laugh at him and tell him he is kid, go away.

Hyles group think they can change deaf culture. Forget it. I dont appreciate hearing folks stepping over and trying to enforce a rule that is not scriptural and is a cultural issue.

dianetavegia
04-30-2005, 08:22 PM
Dr. Tim, I'm NOT deaf and I'll reach out and touch an elbow of a deacon or a male greeter if I can help the person find a class, etc. and don't want to just start yakking.... Good for you!

Askjo
04-30-2005, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Dr.Tim:
The "hands off" rule is a good rule in some ways. That is PURE legalism.

Askjo
04-30-2005, 10:09 PM
If a woman blacked out, can't I help her by lifting up?

gb93433
05-01-2005, 12:02 AM
If one of the Hyles's addicts needs CPR, I wonder if he would refuse it?

Dr.Tim
05-01-2005, 12:33 AM
The "hands off" rule is is to keep girls from sitting on their boyfriend's lap..etc. You dont take it to ridiculous extremes like tapping a person on the shoulder for the purpose of getting someone's attention, or helping them when they have fallen..etc.

At deaf camp one time, a deaf girl was leaning against the fence. I couldnt get in front of her and she had people on each side of her.. so I tapped her on the shoulder. She looked at me like... "are you nuts??????????" Then she said.. "Your church must me a liberal church".

Those same folks will send their wives to a MALE doctor who then proceeds to touch them wherever he must. Just makes no sense to be so extreme with the rule.

DeafPosttrib
05-01-2005, 09:05 AM
Askjo,

To buy Mrs. Victor Nischik's book about Jack Hyles, is not necesscary. I don't care either it is true or lie, doesn't matter to me, Victor Nischik is trying to convicting us, that Jack Hyles is wrong doing. I consider of her book to selling is not to glory God. I do not think God is please to see Mrs. Nischik sells her book, trying to convict people to believe her story on Jack Hyles.

Because I consider, it is part of rumours. Rumour is a sin. Stabbing on Hyles' back is not right. I guess that Mrs. Nischik seems have bitter and obesses on Jack Hyles in the past. She have to let the past go, let God takes care of Jack. She cannot doing anything being try to file case or sue against Hyles as revenge. She have to let it go, and let God take care of Jack.

I do not believe that any Christian who is sue against Pastor. That is not the Bible public.

My friends told me, they did getting a lawyer for file case sue against their pastor. The lawyer told them, they are not alone, there are SO MANY cases that many pastors actual steal people's money. I told them, they have to let it go. Let God takes care of that pastor. They agreed with me. Also, they told me, they did dropped the case. That's good. I told them, better let God takes care of that pastor, that is not their problems.

I think Mrs. Nischik have so big bitter and obesses against Jack Hyles. It is wrong for her. Being bitter and obssess, both are sin.

And, I do not want to hear "Jack Hyles" in any post in any forums. It is enough for me. Let's look up on the Lord, not man.

Two things I would like to telling you the two facts on Hyles-Anderson College and Hyles, that I do not agree.

Several years ago, when I was a student at Bible College. The President of the college told us, Baptist International Missionary Inc. (B.I.M.I.) Presdient Don Sisk was very upset on Jack Hyles. The couple who was graduated from Hyles-Anderson College. Decided to filling out the application at BIMI to become missionary as candidate. Then, later, they were approved as candidate as missionary under BIMI. But, somehow, couple left BIMI as candidate, and to join missionary board under Hyles-Anderson College. Dr. Don Sisk was so angry with Jack Hyles. Dr. Sisk called Jack Hyles, and he rebuked at Hyles for forced them to join under Hyles-Anderson College. I am 100% agree with Dr. Don Sisk.

Because, Hyles forced them to join missionary board as candidate under Hyles-Anderosn College, is not right, that is against God's Will. And Dr. Sisk did told Dr. Hyles to leave them alone. Dr. Sisk was right.

Couple have their rights to making decision, and seeking God's Will, no one pull or force them to join missionary board, that is against God's Will.

Also, I do not agree with Hyles-Anderson College's public. All students must be married from the same college, not marry from different college. That is against God's Will.

No doubt, I consider, Jack Hyles controled people like as dicator, sorry to saying it.

Thirdly, I would like to tell you share a true sad fact story about a deaf evangelist.

First, I met him at National Techincal Institute for the Deaf(NTID) in Rochester, NY in 1989. He used attend First Bible Baptist Church because of good deaf ministry there. In 1991, he burdened for Chicago. Because he grew up in Chicago. So, he and his family moved to Chicago. He did attend Bethel Baptist Church in metro area of Chicago. He was so fraustrate with that pastor, because he does not understand deaf culture. Also, he left that church, because it uses different Version. Obivously, he is KJV Onlyism. Because of First Bible Baptist Church of Rochester, Ny, it is very strong KJV Onlyism because of influence from Dr. Peter Ruckman.

In 1993, He and his family joined First Baptist Church of Hammond, IN. He atteneded Hyles-Anderson College in 1994. He graduated from Hyles-Anderson College in 1998. He became deaf evangelist.

I went to Dr. Hyles' funeral. I finally meet him again, it was good to see him again. I visited his house. He just arrived home form his work. He told me, he had a full-time job work at the factory. I puzzled. Why not he have a full-time evangelist serve the Lord? He have 4 or 5 children. He have a big family.

He told me, while he is evangelist. He have to obey under Jack Hyles' authority, also, he have to obey under First Baptist Church because of its public or rules. Also, he received support from First Baptist Church. I do not think FBC support him enough to support his family. So, that why he have to work full-time at the factory.

Also, he told me, when he is on traveling to other church for the revivals. He have to ask Jack Hyles, his boss for the approval what the name of church where he will going for the revival. Also, Jack Hyles told him, he cannot go to any church which do not use KJV. Only go to church with KJV for the revival. I strong disagree with Hyles. Obivously, Hyles was a strong KJV Onlyism. Many churches with deaf ministries really need revival so badly, I don't care what kind of Versions, they use. They need revival. Also, I think he does not have enough support from churches, because many churches do not use KJV. I believe he attend only few churches with KJV like New York City(Brooklyn), Louisana, and other?? That's all. That is silly.

He better being indpendent and off from under Hyles' authority.

And what's more? He was under stress, have to focus on ministry at FBC too much. Not have time spend with his family. I am no doubt, he have hard times with finanical and money budget to car of his big family.

less than 2 years ago, I heard from my old friend told, he got divorced. My heart broken to hear about him. I feel bad for him. I believe Hyles actual destroyed his family. Hyles' control with his power and auhtority is not good. I consider, he was acts like as dicator. Sorry to saying it.

If anyone of you considering to attend Hyles-Anderson College. I advice you NOT attend that college!

There are so PLENTY many good Independent Fundamental Baptist colleges in America. Why not you try to visit them? Ask God, for His guide where He wants you to go, better follow Him. He knows more than our advice. Better listen His guide, and seeking the door open, if you see the door opens, then go ahead enter it, and find God's Will and have peace with it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Askjo
05-01-2005, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Askjo,

To buy Mrs. Victor Nischik's book about Jack Hyles, is not necesscary. I don't care either it is true or lie, doesn't matter to me, Victor Nischik is trying to convicting us, that Jack Hyles is wrong doing. I consider of her book to selling is not to glory God. I do not think God is please to see Mrs. Nischik sells her book, trying to convict people to believe her story on Jack Hyles.

Because I consider, it is part of rumours. Rumour is a sin. Stabbing on Hyles' back is not right. I guess that Mrs. Nischik seems have bitter and obesses on Jack Hyles in the past. She have to let the past go, let God takes care of Jack. She cannot doing anything being try to file case or sue against Hyles as revenge. She have to let it go, and let God take care of Jack.

I do not believe that any Christian who is sue against Pastor. That is not the Bible public.

My friends told me, they did getting a lawyer for file case sue against their pastor. The lawyer told them, they are not alone, there are SO MANY cases that many pastors actual steal people's money. I told them, they have to let it go. Let God takes care of that pastor. They agreed with me. Also, they told me, they did dropped the case. That's good. I told them, better let God takes care of that pastor, that is not their problems.

I think Mrs. Nischik have so big bitter and obesses against Jack Hyles. It is wrong for her. Being bitter and obssess, both are sin. You misunderstand what I talked about 2 books. These books did NOT talk about "sue against Jack Hyles." Read these books to see a TRUE story.

The lawyer wrote a book about the adultery and murder including a picture and documents.

Victor Nischik wrote a book about the FRAUD, adultery, church and church members. His book is a story of faith in God, dependence on the teaching of the Bible, and reliance on the Holy Spirit.

Deafposttrib, do you know about murder? Why let them FREE like O.J.?

C4K
05-01-2005, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
If a church is not growing - something is wrong. I don't believe this to be true. A church should be judged by its love for the Lord, its beliefs, and its compassion towards others, not according to how many people attend it. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree Terry. Wait a minute - I agree with Terry?!?! ;)

I Am Blessed 24
05-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
If a church is not growing - something is wrong. I don't believe this to be true. A church should be judged by its love for the Lord, its beliefs, and its compassion towards others, not according to how many people attend it. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree Terry. Wait a minute - I agree with Terry?!?! ;) </font>[/QUOTE]If a church has love for the Lord, the right beliefs, and compassion towards others - IT WILL GROW...

C4K
05-01-2005, 02:51 PM
Wow! Does that mean that most of the conservative, independent Baptist churches in Western Europe don't have a love for the Lord, the right beliefs, and compassion towards others?

Apologies for the off topic comment.

I Am Blessed 24
05-01-2005, 02:55 PM
Playing 'devil's advocate' Roger?

Dr.Tim
05-01-2005, 04:03 PM
Too many folks have never experienced a truly challenging ministry and criticize those who have for only having a 10 member church. My former professor, Dr. Wilton, pastored a church in White Castle, La. The area is 94% Catholic.. very hard to grow. He told us each Tuesday what had happened and it was a struggle. The church did not really grow numerically. Later, he moved to another state and I hear is one of the fastest growing (numerical) churches in the SBC. I dont like to say that if a church does not grow numerically, something is ALWAYS wrong.

I Am Blessed 24
05-01-2005, 04:17 PM
In some areas, 10 people may constitute a big church.

We are definitely off the original topic.

Maybe someone would like to start a new thread on Church Growth?

C4K
05-01-2005, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
In some areas, 10 people may constitute a big church.

We are definitely off the original topic.

Maybe someone would like to start a new thread on Church Growth? Got it ;)

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/48/808.html#000000

Terry_Herrington
05-01-2005, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
If a church is not growing - something is wrong. I don't believe this to be true. A church should be judged by its love for the Lord, its beliefs, and its compassion towards others, not according to how many people attend it. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree Terry. Wait a minute - I agree with Terry?!?! ;) </font>[/QUOTE]If a church has love for the Lord, the right beliefs, and compassion towards others - IT WILL GROW... </font>[/QUOTE]it

Quit drinking the Hyles Kool-Aid and come back to reality. A church is not measured by how many much it grows.

I Am Blessed 24
05-01-2005, 05:35 PM
I did not say it was - but there is a thread started on church growth.

I suggest you post there on that subject.

loving2daysyouth
05-02-2005, 01:31 PM
Glad to see some people never give up!
I hope when I die, everyone knocks on my ministry.
When I play ball, I enjoy people talking "trash" because it means they are threatened by me and my ability. They don't pay attention to the one's with no skill.
This is the same thing: You all kill a dead man constantly (I've not been here in 2 days!) because of whatever reasons, I believe, you feel threatened. According to the Word of God, constant bashing is causing a "schism" in the body of Christ.
If you choose to not be associated, that's fine, do so, if you are "fully persuaded" in your own mind. The bashing part is both unBiblical and unfounded. It's not your job to "educate"

Paul33
05-02-2005, 02:24 PM
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Preach the Word: be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage - with great patience and careful instruction.

2 Timothy 3:16-17, 4:2

Jack Hyles and the ministry of FBC under his direction was in dire need of correction. Perhaps his son-in-law will make the needed changes. We will see.

loving2daysyouth
05-02-2005, 02:25 PM
Schaap is doing an excellent job with the leadership change. Another godly man to continue a good ministry!

AVL1984
05-04-2005, 05:04 PM
And to continue to perpetuate many of the fallacies of his late father in law!

loving2daysyouth
05-04-2005, 05:06 PM
Shows what you know.

4His_glory
05-04-2005, 05:39 PM
He is KJVO just like his father-in-law, and that is a fallacy.

loving2daysyouth
05-04-2005, 05:40 PM
Well, that's neither here nor there, a Pastor shouldn't be attacked for his stance, but his doctrine!

Paul33
05-04-2005, 06:47 PM
That is doctrine! False doctrine!

Scott J
05-04-2005, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by C4K:
Wow! Does that mean that most of the conservative, independent Baptist churches in Western Europe don't have a love for the Lord, the right beliefs, and compassion towards others?

Apologies for the off topic comment. Or north Missouri for that matter?

HankD
05-05-2005, 10:56 AM
It's not your job to "educate" But loving2daysyouth, is that not what you are you doing here?

HankD

Scott J
05-05-2005, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:

If you choose to not be associated, that's fine, do so, if you are "fully persuaded" in your own mind. The bashing part is both unBiblical and unfounded. It's not your job to "educate" If someone is promoting false doctrine then it is the job of discerning believers to oppose it and point people away from it.

Soulman
05-06-2005, 01:12 AM
You get the same beliefs out of the KJV as any other baptists. You folks gotta remember that if a church is kjo, they still believe salvation by grace etc. It is not a doctrinal iossue. It is preference. Many make such a big deal out of it because they feel they have to defend themselves. Say what you will. The kjv is still the best preserved translation in our language.

gb93433
05-06-2005, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
Glad to see some people never give up!
I hope when I die, everyone knocks on my ministry.
When I play ball, I enjoy people talking "trash" because it means they are threatened by me and my ability. They don't pay attention to the one's with no skill.
This is the same thing: You all kill a dead man constantly (I've not been here in 2 days!) because of whatever reasons, I believe, you feel threatened. According to the Word of God, constant bashing is causing a "schism" in the body of Christ.
What Bible have you read? So you don't like Paul too much and God who had it recorded?

2 Timothy 4:14, "Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds."

4His_glory
05-06-2005, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Soulman:
You get the same beliefs out of the KJV as any other baptists. You folks gotta remember that if a church is kjo, they still believe salvation by grace etc. It is not a doctrinal iossue. It is preference. Many make such a big deal out of it because they feel they have to defend themselves. Say what you will. The kjv is still the best preserved translation in our language. Au contraire,

When you say that the KJV is "God's preserved Word for the English speaking people" and that all other versions are a unmentional word in this forum, you have made it a doctrine.

When you call thoes who use other versions "heretics" and seperate from them, you have made it a doctrine.

When you say that KJVO is a matter of faith and you question the faith of thoses who disagree with you, you are makeing it a doctrine.

When you like Jack Hyles did, claim that a person can only be save from the KJV you have added to the Gospel of Christ and have created your own doctrine.

Pastor_Bob
05-06-2005, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by 4His_glory:
When you say that the KJV is "God's preserved Word for the English speaking people" and that all other versions are a unmentional word in this forum, you have made it a doctrine. No, you merely state an opinion.

When you call thoes who use other versions "heretics" and seperate from them, you have made it a doctrine.No, you simply demonstrate a lack of compassion and forfeit any opportunity to minister to them. Still, it is no doctrine.

When you say that KJVO is a matter of faith and you question the faith of thoses who disagree with you, you are makeing it a doctrine.No, you simply demonstrate a lack of discernment. Again, forfeiting the opportunity to minister. Still, no doctrine.

When you like Jack Hyles did, claim that a person can only be save from the KJV you have added to the Gospel of Christ and have created your own doctrine. I agree, this is false doctrine.

LarryN
05-06-2005, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 4His_glory:
When you say that the KJV is "God's preserved Word for the English speaking people" and that all other versions are a unmentional word in this forum, you have made it a doctrine. No, you merely state an opinion.

When you call thoes who use other versions "heretics" and seperate from them, you have made it a doctrine.No, you simply demonstrate a lack of compassion and forfeit any opportunity to minister to them. Still, it is no doctrine.

When you say that KJVO is a matter of faith and you question the faith of thoses who disagree with you, you are makeing it a doctrine.No, you simply demonstrate a lack of discernment. Again, forfeiting the opportunity to minister. Still, no doctrine.

When you like Jack Hyles did, claim that a person can only be save from the KJV you have added to the Gospel of Christ and have created your own doctrine. I agree, this is false doctrine. </font>[/QUOTE]And yet, Hyles Anderson apparently does consider their position in regards to the KJV as a matter of doctrine. Otherwise, why would they include mention of the TR and the KJV in their "Doctrinal Statement"? (Current College Catalog, p. 5):

http://www.hylesanderson.com/haccatalog2004-2005.pdf

I Am Blessed 24
05-06-2005, 12:24 PM
Their TR merely states:

We accept the Textus Receptus manuscripts from which came the King James Bible. It does NOT say all others are exluded... ;)

LarryN
05-06-2005, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Their TR merely states:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> We accept the Textus Receptus manuscripts from which came the King James Bible. It does NOT say all others are exluded... ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Their Doctrinal Statement doesn't have to. By nature; and by definition; a Doctrinal Statement is a proactive listing of a group's non-negotiable, foundational, core beliefs. HAC's statement doesn't specifically exclude the Koran either; but its mere lack of inclusion is indicative of its exclusion. To say that one accepts the TR in a proactive sense is a defacto disavowal of any other MSS. In addition, since accepting the TR could potentially permit acceptance of the NKJV as well as the KJV- the HAC statement takes it one step furthur to proactively mention the KJV only; to the exclusion of the NKJV.

HappyG
05-06-2005, 02:54 PM
Hey Loving2DaysYouth,

For the record, I could take you in basketball!

graemlins/applause.gif

Pastor_Bob
05-06-2005, 03:17 PM
This is off topic I realize, but the above post prompted me to share this with you. My oldest son is 21 years old. He and I are the same height but I have about 40 lbs on him.

We are going to Lamberts "The Home of the Throwed Rolls" in Springfield, MO on Saturday to meet his fiancé’s parents. He came home from work last night and asked me if I wanted to go outside and play some basketball. I jokingly replied, "Son, you know you can't take me." He kind of snickered so I added, "I'll tell you what, I'll play you and the loser has to pay for dinner at Lamberts." He readily agreed and we went outside and played 1-on-1 to 11, win by 2.

After about 30 minutes of basketball, several things were happening all at once. I was breathing very hard, the basketball court was spinning in circles, my 11 year-old daughter Amy was running to the house yelling, "Mommy, Daddy just beat Bobby!" The final score was 12 to 10.

Of course, we do not gamble in our home, so I am still paying for dinner tomorrow night.

Okay, back to the original topic.

I Am Blessed 24
05-06-2005, 03:42 PM
I was breathing very hard, the basketball court was spinning in circles, my 11 year-old daughter Amy was running to the house yelling, "Mommy, Daddy...Don't DO that to me! I thought the next words were going to be, "...is having a heart attack!".

And you wonder why my hair is turning gray! :rolleyes:

Paul33
05-06-2005, 03:46 PM
I can still beat my boys, but ONLY because I cheat!

av1611jim
05-08-2005, 12:09 PM
I love that exchange betwixt mom and son.
I thought "heart attack" was coming in the next phrase also and I don't even know Pastor Bob!
graemlins/laugh.gif
In HIS service;
Jim

Soulman
05-11-2005, 02:11 AM
Posted by 4His_glory: When you say that the KJV is "God's preserved Word for the English speaking people" and that all other versions are a unmentional word in this forum, you have made it a doctrine.

I never said anything about the other versions. Why put words in my mouth?

Posted by 4His_glory:When you call thoes who use other versions "heretics" and seperate from them, you have made it a doctrine.

You keep saying "you". I didn't say any of that. I say to grab the version you trust the most and ride it out and hope you are right. I prefer the KJV.

Posted by 4His_glory:When you say that KJVO is a matter of faith and you question the faith of thoses who disagree with you, you are makeing it a doctrine.

I dont question the faith of anybody. I have enough to do with taking care of my own family. Do as you will and read a comic book for what it's worth.

Posted by 4His_glory:When you like Jack Hyles did, claim that a person can only be save from the KJV you have added to the Gospel of Christ and have created your own doctrine.

He was obviously wrong. Salvation is present in most versions'.

It is ok that you used my post to vent. However I still believe the KJV to be the best version. It's doctrines are intact as God preserved them. Other versions? I don't care. Use one if you will but there is nothing wrong with the KJV. :D

Askjo
05-15-2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Soulman:
The kjv is still the best preserved translation in our language. Amen!

Paul33
05-15-2005, 08:28 PM
Please.

Logos1560
05-15-2005, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Soulman:
However I still believe the KJV to be the best version. Do you then acknowledge that other English translations can be good? If you deny the positive degree and claim that other English translations cannot be good, you would also be denying the comparative and superlative degree and your claim that the KJV is the best translation. Are you claiming that the KJV has the best rendering of every word and verse when compared to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages or are you claiming that the KJV is the best overall translation but acknowledging that another English translation may have a better, clearer, or more accurate rendering at some verses?

DeafPosttrib
05-16-2005, 08:49 AM
Dr. Hyles' early life back in 1950's and 1960's. He was not KJV Onlyism. Alhtough, he uses KJV. When he wrote a small book "Let's study Revelation". That book was written copied from his teaching from other baptist church in Texas. He said of few verses of Revelation in KJV, "it should be better translated", I am no doubt that he spoken of RSV or ASV to correct KJV. Because Late Dr. John R. Rice wrote his commentary of Revelation. He said, RSV corrects KJV, it should better translated into...

I read Hyles' sermon at www.baptist-city.com (http://www.baptist-city.com) on "Enemy of Soul-Winning". He said, a person reads through whole RSV Bible, he cannot be saved. Hyles spoken of RSV is corruptible.

I strongly disagree with him.

Back in 1988, before I became saved. I was desire seeking the truth and answers from the Bible about the future things. I read in Revelation in New English Version. I didn't know that NEV have errors or missing verses few years later after I found out.

But, I believe God uses ANY versions to touch person to became saved.

In August 17, 1988, when I read in Revelation chapter 20 and 21. Revelation chapter 21 is my favorite passage about new heaven, new earth, and New Jerusalem. But, Rev. 20:11-15 made me so scared and guilt, that I do not want go to the lake of fire. I realized that I do not want to miss Jesus, and New Jerusalem. So, I bow down and praying to Jesus in my bedroom at my parent's house. I talked to Jesus by sign language for 30 minutes. I told Jesus, that I do not want go to the lake of fire, and miss Jesus. I asked Jesus to wash all my sins away through his blood(I know Lutheran's doctrine well, because I was Lutheran in my teen years, that Christ's blood forgived my sins through Calvary). After I finish pray, I felt so joyful and peace from Jesus in my heart, then go to bed at 11:35 pm.

Then 12 hours later, I took drive lincense test, and I passed it 12 hoours after my salvation.

I believe Rev. 1:3 promises us, when I read this book will receive blessing.

NO one witness me how to become saved. I was saved by read Bible(NEV) in Rev. 20:11-15.

Also, my precious deaf sister in Christ(she is in the heaven). She told me, she read through whole NIV from Genesis to Revelation several times. I visited her house, I was so amazing that she have lot of Bibles on the shelf in the living room. She shows me of her NIV Bibles, that she wrote them the date that she already complete read through whole NIV Bible from Genesis to Revelation several times. I lost the count how many times she already read through whole NIV.

One day, she attended Sunday School at an independent fundamental baptist church. A Sunday School teacher told her, that she must use KJV all the times, and forced her to read KJV. So, she started to read KJV. But, she told me, she understands KJV so very clear, because NIV helps her reading through it lot.

While she read NIV Bibles, she was baptist for over 15 years. Till she was forced to read KJV about 5 years ago.

That Sunday School teacher is obivously KJV Onylist.

I believe several Christians shared their testimony that any versions did help them growing in the Lord.

I do BELIEVE God uses any versions to guide or touch person to became saved or growing in the Lord. Any versions are consider God's Word. Because, many versions talk on Jesus Christ, cross, salvation, etc.

Hyles' sermon on 'Enemy of Soul Winning' about the corruptile of God's Word does not make a sense to me. Obivously, he was strong KJV Onlyist.

I went to Hyles' furneral. I was invited at deaf's house. A deaf lady told me, Dr. Hyles preached on KJV during 2000 Pastors' School. Dr. Hyles jump, jump, jump, and shout said, "KJV!" "KJV!" KJV!". It made me laugh(but I does not show my face express toward a deaf lady while she was talking to me same time).

That is partially of cult, because of KJV Onlyism.

Again, I am telling you, that an ex-deaf evangelist of First Baptist Church of Hammond told me, he had to obey his boss(Hyles), ask for the approval what the name of church he will go for the revival. Hyles demands him go to church only with KJV. He cannot go to any church which do not use KJV. I disagree on Hyles. Many deaf ministries in America need revival despite the issue of Bible translation issue. Also, he does not have enough support from any churches because of KJV, and obey his boss situation. That why he got divorced about 2 years ago.

I want to telling you the truth, I do believe KJV is the best version, because it is more close to Greek (Textus Receptus).

BUT...... all Christians CAN use ANY versions, because they have the same doctrines as KJV does. Many versions mentioned on Jesus Christ, cross, salvation, etc. same as KJV does.

I consider Hyles and Ruckman both really damaged many baptist churches of America because of KJV Onlyism. KJV Onlyism is a dangerous movement. Because, KJV Onlyism caused many churches into division or split over the silly issue.

We have to focus on God's Word for to preaching, teaching the doctrines to the people to growing in the Lord, not debate on the hotly issue.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Askjo
05-16-2005, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
I want to telling you the truth, I do believe KJV is the best version, because it is more close to Greek (Textus Receptus). Agree! BUT...... all Christians CAN use ANY versions, because they have the same doctrines as KJV does. Many versions mentioned on Jesus Christ, cross, salvation, etc. same as KJV does. Same doctrines? Noooooo!

DeafPosttrib
05-17-2005, 06:02 AM
Askjo,

I am aware that there are so much debate about Bible translation, Manuscript, KJV issues. KJV Onlyists saying that many Versions omit many important words, or whole verses from the Bible. They are right. KJV Onlyists saying the reason that many Versions omit many words or whole verses because of the doctrine.

For example, KJV Onlyists often saying many Versions omit word, 'blood' from the Bible. They might be right. Yes that is true. KJV Onlyists saying NIV is the worst Version, which omit so many important words & whole verses. They might be right. Yes that is true.

But, KJV Onlyists have to be opening their mind.

NIV does have truths in it.

I want to show you few comparings of NIV with KJV on verses.

John 3:16 NIV "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:16 KJV "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

KJV Onlyists argue that NIV changed or twisted a word - "only begotten", that NIV says, "one and only". Actually, use in our common sense, that NIV believes Jesus Christ is the deity of God, also, NIV believes Jesus Christ is the way, the life, truth (John 14:6). There is no big deal between "begotten" & "one and only", both are similiar almost same meaning.

Romans 10:9 NIV "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Romans 10:9 KJV "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

There are no difference between NIV & KJV on Romans 10:9, both are speaking the same doctrine. Because NIV believes Jesus is the Lord, just as KJV believes Jesus is the Lord.

KJV Onlyists saying NIV omits 'blood' from God's Word. They might be right. Yes that is true. But, they have to opening their mind.

What about Ephesians 1:7?

Ephesians 1:7 NIV "In him we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace."

Ephesians 1:7 KJV "In Whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

Both of Ephesians 1:7 telling us, we are redeemed through Christ's blood according to the riches of God's grace. There are no difference between them of Eph. 1:7, both telling the same doctrine.

There are so plenty of comparings verses of NIV and KJV, both are same doctrines.

Please opening your mind.

By the way, of course, I do have a book "New Age Version". It shows of the parallels comparing with different versions and KJV. I already read them. I know that.

KJV Onlyists stress that many Versions omit many important words and whole verses, because of the doctrines purpose. They might be right. I agree with them. But, notice, many KJV Onlyists seem have their narrow mind, not willing to opening their mind.

I am now attending church. That pastor preaches from his Bible during the service. He uses ASV. But, I have no problem with him. Because He BELIEVES we are saved by through Christ's blood literally. He BELIEVES we are saved by the faith through the grace only. He BELIEVES Jesus Christ is the deity of God. He BELIEVES the virgin birth of Christ literally.

At that church, many members brign their own Bibles, not every members use KJV, some use ASV, some use NIV, some use RSV, some use KJV. That church have NO problem, because they all believe the same doctrine of Jesus Christ of salvation. That is the most important that we all believe the basic fundamental doctrine, as what many IFB churches believe. That church is not KJV Onlyism. Also, that church is NOT legalism. That church is a very warm friendly with truly love.

I am not comfortable with legalism church, because they have no true love, they are spirit cold. I am serious, no kidding. I did visited that church is a legalism. I was not comfortable with them. They were not friendly toward me, and show no respect. That why I am not visit that church again next time.

Askjo, please opening your mind toward many Christians include baptists, who use different Versions beside KJV, they believe the same doctrines just as what you believe. Please respect them.

Never know some baptist churches which use different Versions, are better spiritual than KJV Onlyism baptist churches.

Even, there are many SBC churches are better spiritual than IFB churches.

I am not saying that IFB churches are awful terrible spiritual. I know many IFB churches' spiritual are wonderful.

Also, not all IFB churches are legalism, KJV Onlyism. Depend on their standards.

Every baptists and Christians have to opening their mind, show their true love toward others, who believe the same doctrines of Jesus Christ, as what they believe.

Today, many baptists often judge, attack, criticizing, rumours against other baptists or Christians who use different Versions. But they are too many hyrocrite. Their spirit attitude are awful terrible. God knows their heart.

I would like to see many baptists have to respect other baptists, who use different Versions, because, others believe the same doctrine of Jesus Christ base upon salvation same as what baptists believe.

Dr. Ruckman actually destroyed so many baptist churches because of KJV issue, because he have no truly love and respect. Also, he divorced THREE TIMES! Many baptist churches follow Ruckman, that why so many baptist churches are split, create into divisions among them today.

Sorry, this post seems off the track. I am trying to telling you, why I do not agree with Hyles-Anderson College. Because, Hyles always stress on KJV all the times, no question, he was obivously himself KJV Onlyist. I am no longer respect him, because he already spoiled deaf evangelist's life and his family because of KJV situation.

We need focus on Jesus Christ, teaching them the doctrines from God's Word, teaching them to growing in the Lord. Witness gospel to lost people about the good news of Jesus Christ from God's Word.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Soulman
05-21-2005, 07:03 AM
Posted by Logos1560: Do you then acknowledge that other English translations can be good?

I a saying that although a person can get saved through other versions, it doesn't mean that you can take anything away from the KJV. I do believe it to be the best version out there.

Posted by Logos1560: Are you claiming that the KJV has the best rendering of every word and verse when compared to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages or are you claiming that the KJV is the best overall translation but acknowledging that another English translation may have a better, clearer, or more accurate rendering at some verses?

I am saying the KJV is the best overall translation. Of course there may be verses in other translations that make the KJV rendering easier to understand. But I stick to what has been tried and proven. I believe there are problems with most of the other versions but you are welcome to use them as you will and I will not look down on you for doing so. I will use the KJV beleiving it has been preserved as God would have it. Yours? I dunno.

Posted by Deafposttrib: NIV does have truths in it.

So does everything in life.

Posted by Deafposttrib: For example, KJV Onlyists often saying many Versions omit word, 'blood' from the Bible. They might be right. Yes that is true. KJV Onlyists saying NIV is the worst Version, which omit so many important words & whole verses. They might be right. Yes that is true.

Case and point!

Look, I am no Ruckmanite! I do not believe the men who translated the KJV were inspired. I do beleive they were men of prayer and that God blessed their work. However, I know it is only a translation. But I believe it to be the best out there. Use whatever you want. No hardfeelings here.

I also know there is the KJVO crowd that beats you guys like yard dogs' for using other versions. I belong to a KJO church but we are not militant on the issue other than for ourselves.

Soulman
05-26-2005, 01:00 AM
bump

shannonL
05-28-2005, 11:14 PM
I myself went to Piedmont Baptist College in Winston-Salem NC.In my opinion it is a good, balanced, fundamental Baptist school. Later I attended Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, a conservative SBC school. My first pastorate was a sbc congregation. Later God called me into missions. I took the Independent Baptist road out of conviction. I mentioned all that to say this. After serving the Lord for quite a few years now. Being in all kinds of churches due to deputation. I have noticed one thing. God uses all kinds of folk from all kinds of backgrounds. I can honestly say I've met some folk who have went to Hyles and they are just downright odd. Others, are sincere people who have great desire for soulwinning. I've met folk from some colleges with a Calvinistic bent who are dry as a desert but they bring something "to the table" that is different from the "hyles" folk but both can be used for the cause of Christ.
Now the fellow that says H.Anderson is the "most elite college in the world" either had that attitude when he arrived at the school or the school fostered the notion. I don't know but that was a immature, silly kind of a statement.
If we truly believe we are being led of God into the calling of a particular ministry. Then we should trust God to lead us to the proper school.
I can't stand it when a guy says I wish I had not went to such an such school. Like they're embarrassed or something. If it was a good experience or a bad one. A highly academic school or a so-so school if God is truly leading then we should roll with the punches and count it all as preperation for what God ultimatly has called us to do for Him. For me personally, I'm more concerned if a fellow is Spirit filled than I'am with what kind of GPA he had in school. I sat in Dr. Paige Patterson's office after I had to resign from my first pastorate before being fired.
He said "I don't respect a man until he has been fired at least once." Furthermore, He was the President of the seminary. A highly educated, man at that. I was concerned about not finishing my degree due to the strain of a family and financial problems. He said "Son, God doesn't have a degree and He operates just fine. HA!
I said that to say this. For a young man going into the ministry, the REAL education doesn't start until he enters the ministry. HA! In the particular context were talking in, where you went to school is not nearly important as whether or not your SOLD OUT to the master or not! Is your life pure? Is your quiet-time with God consistent? Is your faith strong? Those are the things that are gonna see you through the valleys of the ministry. It really isn't going to mean diddly where you went to school. If it was Harvard or Hyles or where ever!

Dr.Tim
05-29-2005, 12:06 AM
Good post, Shannon. A minister is not limited by the school he attends, so long as he is Spirit-led. I went to a school that I considered to be liberal and I learned only a few things while in the classroom. I learned more outside of the classroom and from my own experiences as a deaf evangelist. Even many of the liberal professors had a decent amount of personal experiences to share, and I think we all learned from them.

My problems with Hyles-Anderson College are not few. I never liked the pedestal that Dr. Hyles was put on. I never liked the way people pledge blind allegiance to him and his staff. Many CRAZY things were said and done and nobody dared question the school. I dont like how they do soul-winning simply because I dont think they include repentance in their presentation and they sure do win a lot of souls that they cannot account for in follow up.
I have some good friends over there and I do respect the deaf leader, but I would not attend and i would not send my children or give recommendation to anyone to go there at this time.
Good points? Hmm.... they have produced some good preachers and missionaries who have gone on to do well. Most of the younger grads that I know have continued to walk a straight line (regardless of what motive)and have not fallen away like so many young folks do today.

I never met Hyles and I do not know Schapp. I trust that their actions, good and bad, will be judged by the Lord.

shannonL
06-03-2005, 03:11 PM
Dr. Tim,
I personally,would never attend Hyles.If all the people that they claimed to have saved over the years in Hammond In. were true, then the whole city of Chicago would be born again by now.
The adoration of Jack Hyles has always bordered on the cultic.

shannonL
06-03-2005, 03:24 PM
I prefer the KJ over other versions. Most of the churches I receive support from are KJ only some are militant about it some are not. As a missionary on deputation one of the first things I'm asked: "Do you use the KJV"? I prefer it. It is what I read from, study from. I do not make it a matter of seperation like some IFB do.
I will admit that you can tell alot about a fellow or church's philosophy of ministry by the Bible they choose to use. Not that I'm one of those people. But it will give you an indication as to the style of worship in the church etc...
I believe that is one of the reasons as a missionary I get asked those questions.
Also, I think it is healthy for a church to decide on the version they are going to use as a church. What one uses in private is their business it just helps in a service if everyone is looking at the same thing.

KINGSDAUGHTER
06-07-2005, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by loving2daysyouth:
Again, old news. I guess David wasn't a man after God's own heart either, was he?

I'm not defending sin, just morons who in their self-proclaimed righteousness judge others and their ministries.

Yet another he said she said mud-flinging contest of which you merely read in books and I am personally friends with those involved. Thanks for spreading your propaganda, but take it somewhere else. Here's where Christians tend to get in trouble: putting our faith in man, not in Christ. I have seen other posts on this forum regarding Catholics, and unscriptural beliefs: If we put our faith in Hyles, the pope, or in scooby doo, it is wrong, and evil. We are Called to follow the Lord, not man. graemlins/thumbs.gif

Sounddoctrine04
06-10-2005, 11:14 AM
#1. I am a graduate of HAC

#2. I never have been, and never will be a "camp" Baptist...such leanings are carnal.

#3. Just as there are different types of Baptist churches who are being used of God for His glory, there are different types of Baptist colleges, institutes, seminaries, whatever, being used of God for His glory.

#4. Seek God's will and do it, no matter what college He might lead you to.

Sounddoctrine04
06-10-2005, 11:26 AM
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; ARE YE NOT CARNAL?

shannonL
06-10-2005, 07:12 PM
Good posts Sounddocrtrine,

You might have read my post i don't know. I have met plenty of fine, christian folk who are graduates of HAC.Doing a good work for the Lord.

Dave Ekstrom
06-13-2005, 10:51 PM
I'm a 1983 grad of HAC. Worst decision I ever made. Did well there as far as grades, etc. Kept my nose clean. Was never in trouble there. People were nice to me there. I've got no axes to grind. That being said HAC was a waste of time. Regardless of denials, Hyles IS worshipped there. Did it myself for a long time. KJVO is bogus. Bible teaching? HAH! Practical teaching on how to build a church? HAH! You learn how to build a bus route, which I didn't need to go to college to learn. I was a better soul-winner before I went to HAC.
For the most part, I define Christianity in terms OTHER THAN what is expounded at HAC. I define my role as a pastor almost as a photographic negative of Jack Hyles.
There are hundreds and hundreds of former grads like me who feel the same way. Who ever heard of a college, ANY college of ANY kind where such a large percentage of its graduates repudiate it?

Dave Ekstrom
06-13-2005, 11:37 PM
I posted on an earlier page so I'm not sure if my post will be found. I'm a 1983 grad of HAC. Did well there, everyone was nice to me there, got no axes to grind. I'm really not convinced that Hyles committed adultery with Nischik's wife. Still I would say that HAC was the biggest waste of my time. I define my pastoral ministry now as a photographic negative of Jack Hyles. The numbers are lies. The "bible" teaching there is a joke. The only thing you will learn at HAC is how to run a bus route. Do you need to go to college to learn that?
That being said, some of the anti-HAC stuff is nasty and mean-spirited. I'm not anti-Hyles but I would hate to see any young man or woman who wanted to serve the Lord waste their time and money there. There's a lot of good places to go.
BTW, I'm not alone. There are hundreds and hundreds of former HAC grads who feel the same way. Have you ever heard of a college, any college, that is repudiated by a good percentage of its own graduates?

Jarthur001
06-17-2005, 10:59 AM
This KJV only is so far off the deep end and it is tearing the church apart. We have tons of people that do not have a inkling what they are talking about, and never take the time to look and see if what they read in some book is accurate or just a bunch of lies.

The biggest problem I have with the KJV only cult is the lies they convey. They speak as if they KNOW the facts but demonstrate they have not looked into everything with the words they speak and write. Many have never read the Greek nor could they if you handed them a copy of a MSS. So where do they come off being such an expert? You can tell they read a book or two. They quote others that have written on the KJV only, and believe the writer as if it is gospel. Where did the writer get his information? Did he read the Greek?

I was introduced to the TR/KJV debate long ago. In 1976 a preacher came to our church and address this subject and I for the 1st time not only heard it, but believed it. It made sense to me. I was amazed! I never know all this had happen to my Bible. The world must know this about my Bible they are trying to do away with was my battle cry.

Later at the age of 19 just out of high school I took a summer job at Word Of Life Bible camp in upstate NY. While there, someone preached from the ASV and I was upset. Had they not heard? Did they not know? I had by now read 2 books myself on the subject and had a better understanding of the text. Or I thought. I went to this preacher after the meeting and like a fool tried to enlighten him. He showed a lot of grace to me and told me that there was more to it then I thought.

I went back home later that year knowing for sure I was right. I had read up on this and knew. But maybe I needed to be better educated. I read more books, the more the better. It all came down to this. This made things worse not better. Most of the KJV only writers did not even know Greek. They stated feelings and said it has always been like this, and made up lies to prove the KJV was the only Bible. Lies? Yes…tons of them. However, this did not stop me.

Since no one that I had read that spoke in favor of KJV only knew Greek I thought the best thing for me to do is to study Greek myself. Little did I know what a under taking this was. I will not bore you with this, for I still do not call myself an expert.

OK..you know a little Greek. So what is the point?

This is the point. In one famous KJV only book called “Which Bible?” Wilson made this statement.

When someone says..”All scholars agree. I went to know who these scholars are and what makes them scholars and what they did to become scholars.”

I say to you now…who wrote these KJV only books and what made them experts?

Do the writiers know Greek? For the most part NO!! How can they be experts on something they do not know? I’ll not go into all the lies they tell, but why should they tell any lie? If God is behind this KJV only then why lie at all? Do you think God needs help? Maybe God is not behind it this debate after all.

Let me say this I love the KJV. I carry it. I use it. I study with it I have no reason to change to another version. The KJV is a very good version. I do not like the NIV. The NIV is ok if you want to read to children. The NIV flows a bit better than the KJV and that makes it easy for light reading. The Greek has a woody sound to it. It sounds choppy to me. Te KJV is more like the Greek then the NIV. The ASV is more like the Greek too. For Bible study the NIV took way to many liberties’s in its translation. As a matter of fact I would not call the NIV a version, but rather a paraphrase. This does not mean it does not have a place. In fact it does have a place. Paraphrases have been used for years. Part of the New Testament was wrote using an Old Testament paraphrase. Jews read paraphrases when they met to worship. But that is another subject.

Anyway, lets look at one verse from the book I happen to be studying right now. Lets look at the book of Romans. You do not have to know Greek on this one. Just read and make up your own mind.

Romans 9, 25 KJV

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. KJV

Who is Osee? If you were to not look outside the KJV you would have no idea who Osee is on your own. KJV only cult says you need to throw out the Greek now that we have the KJV. They rank the KJV over the Greek. For the life of me, I can not see where they get this.

What does the NIV say?

25 As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," NIV

NIV says Hosea. Which is right the KJV or NIV? NIV has to be wrong….it is a bad translation from a bad Greek MSS. Ok let’s look at NKJV

25 As He says also in Hosea:
"I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved." NKJV

Ok something is wrong there. NKJV comes from the TR as does the KJV. If you are a KJV only person you may say…”YOU SEE!!! You can’t trust the NKJV..only the KJV.” Both the NKJV and the KJV came from the same Greek text. So something is wrong here. By the way, nearly everyone translates this word to Hosea and not Osee. Lets look at the Greek and see what it says. You do not know greek? No worry. This will be easy.


25 ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????????? ??????????

This is from Westcott-Hort New Testament 1881

You say..”I have no idea what that says. And besides if I did, it’s that bad greek I have read about. Show me the good stuff…show me the TR.”

Ok here you go…

25 ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????????? ??????????

It looks like the same text does it not? You know why? It is the same text.

So where did this Osee come from?

I’m glad you asked. Let me show you.

25. as he saith in Osee, I shall call not my people my people, and not my loved my loved, and not getting mercy getting mercy [and not having mercy having mercy]

This is Wycliffe New Testament. This is where a lot of the language came from in the KJV. Its not a Holy language. It’s Wycliffe eary English.

The KJV was not the 1st English version. The KJV is not word for word the same as Wycliffe’s NT. I can show you many words that were changed from Wycliffe to the KJV. If we are to never update the English langrage why did we do it with the KJV? If we can update the langrage…and we need to go back to the Greek to do so…we must do it the best we can with what God has given us.

I think the KJV men did that very thing. They had a English Bible but the English langrage had changed. I have no idea why they did not change this one word (Osee). It maybe that at the time that the KJV tranlation, Osee and Hosea were both used. Should it be change now? YES! No one, not even the KJV uses Osee. That is clear in the text and that is clear in the KJV.

This in no way is to suggest that the KJV is bad. The KJV translators did a good job of updating the version back then after the English langrage changed. They were lead by God to do so. Can others today be lead by God? Yes. Can we update? Yes. Will I change? Maybe sometime, but for now I feel no need to change from the KJV. If a new version helps someone else…go for it.

I would like to add this. You can make a point that the TR is better then the WH. I’m not saying that I agree with that point and I’m not say that I do not. All I’m saying is that is where if any debate should be. Please do not worship a version. I know some that have changed their church name to have KJVonly church included in it. That, my friend, is a cult!!!

In Christ…james

Jarthur001
06-17-2005, 11:02 AM
oops...sorry. I guess you can't post greek on the server. Oh well. My bad. Maybe i can place it on a website for those that would like to see.

I Am Blessed 24
06-17-2005, 11:46 AM
This thead is not about KJV. You should have posted your post in the "Bible Versions/Translations" forum.

Maybe a moderator of this forum will move it for you. ;)

Squire Robertsson
06-17-2005, 12:37 PM
As the post is on the tenth page, I can't just move it. Nor am I going to delete it. I have pm'd the poster informing him of his faux pas.
Keith

I Am Blessed 24
06-17-2005, 12:46 PM
Ok, thanks, Keith.