Women in the Ministry

[SaggyWoman]

If you are a woman in ministry, please tell about yourself in here.

[Grace]

Well, I don't know if you could count me in the ministry, but here's what I do. I lead a sign language class at my church along with my best friend, I teach children's choir, and I help wherever I am needed (serving food, changing diapers, cleaning out old choir books was my last job smile.gif). I love working with Pre-school and 1st and 2nd graders. I love being able to help where I am needed. My own "private" ministry is just to send people a quick note or a card, just to let them know that I'm praying for them.

[Pam Madore]

I am trying to be in the ministry. smile.gif It seems as though God has called me into an area that is not easily accepted by the men in our denomination. Anyone else with a similar problem?

[Joy]

What area of ministry are you talking about?

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Hello...just hanging out and observing. Please nevermind me. :D

Joseph

[Gina B]

Oh Joseph. I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT!! :D :D

[KeeperOfMyHome]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBotwinick:
[QB]Hello...just hanging out and observing.

If you'll just not say anything, nobody will get hurt! :D LOL

[Pam Madore]

Leadership, teaching, preaching.........

[Joy]

Pam, are you a pastor?

[SaggyWoman]

Can't someone lead, teach, and preach without being a pastor?

I think so.

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Women can do anything that God calls them to do!!!!!!! He is in complete control of his calling.

Joseph

[KeeperOfMyHome]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBotwinick:
[QB]Women can do anything that God calls them to do!!!!!!!

Amen! And He'd never call them to do anything that opposes His word. smile.gif :D

[Pam Madore]

No, I am not a pastor. Not everyone believes that God calls women to be pastors or any kind of leader in the church. So what do you do if God calls you?

[Dr. Bob]

Pam - God wrote the Bible partly as a guide for us as individual believers and corporately for the local churches.

There is no evidence to support the position of a woman "pastoring". Sorry.

But leadership?

YES - Phoebe was a deacon in her church (not an extra-biblical position of deaconness, but actually a deacon)

YES - 4 Daughters of Philip the Evangelist also "preached" (prophesied in KJV)

YES - Instruction to Corinthian Church was for women to be properly dressed when praying or prophesying

Obviously, God has laid a calling on your life. It may include preaching or serving in your local church. You may have to search for a church in which you can fulfill this calling, but I'd encourage you to do so.

God "gifts" our churches with a great variety of people to do a great many ministries. And some of these gifts come in feminine packaging!

[Pam Madore]

Dr. Bob--Thanks for the encouragement. My choice of churces is, however, very limited plus God has not released me from where I am. smile.gif So I wait on Him and preach whenever I find an open door.

[KeeperOfMyHome]

Dr. Bob ~ What do you mean exactly when you say "preaching"? Are you talking about women "preaching" from a pulpit to men? Preaching like an evangelist would "preach" to a congregation or gathering during, say, a tent meeting or revival?

[SaggyWoman]

I believe God calls women. I know that God called me. He did not call me to be a pastor, but I do shepherd. He did not call me to preach, but I do speak to people. He did not call me to be a deacon, but I do serve others.

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Kinda boggles the mind...doesn't it? :D ;)

Joseph

[Dr. Bob]

The KJV "prophesying" is from a root to foretell events or divine hidden knowledge. That is what a "prophet" did! But it also meant to speak the inspired word, declaring truth that has already been revealed.

So what we have today in "preaching the Word" fits the job description of women! Not pastoring. Preaching, proclaiming the good news, sharing the Word.

Because of their special relationship with children and other women, our ladies may have greater opportunity to "preach" than I as a minister do! One-on-one, Bible studies, children's ministries, ladies' ministries, missions, etc. Open doors!

Now in answering your question, I must caution you I am not advocating a woman preaching in my church this Sunday! But as a pastor, if I should choose to allow a single woman missionary to "share a testimony" (that might include 3 points and a prayer) that it part of MY pastoral responsibility.

Hope this helps.

[The Briguy]

In every gathered assembly of believers God's character must be on display. A woman preaching, teaching or having authority over men is "ugly" or "Deformed" in God's sight because of the roles God has ordained for men and women since the begining. (see 1 Cor 14). Men lead and women respond and it should work in love and harmoney. Women can teach other women or children but not men. There are several scriptures to support this. If God is leading a women into ministry they should go and just make sure they stay within Biblical guidelines.

[SaggyWoman]

Now, Doctor Bob, how is it that when a man does three points a poem and a prayer, it is preaching but when a woman does it, it is testifying????

Hello?? :eek:

[Pam Madore]

My goodness, Dr. Bob, I am going to have to agree with Saggywoman here. How in tbe world can you change the name from preaching to testifying? Semantics. I am thinking that God might be thinking we are being a little silly here. Actually, about more than half of the preaching I do is to saved Baptist men who are hungry for spiritual growth. What is your definition of "pastor"? ;)

[Pam Madore]

Mr. Briguy--Help me out here. You were quoting a reference in 1 Cor 14. I am thinking you mean 1 Cor 14: 33-35? If so, please point me to the place in the "law" that Paul is referring to that substantiates this scripture.

[pioneer]

I agree that women have a definite place in the ministry but God does not call women to be in positions of authority over men.

1 Timothy 2:12 - "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

God does not call women to be pastors or deacons nor does he call them to sit on pulpit committees. God also does not call women to teach spiritual truths to men. The main ministry of a woman is in the home not in the church.

Titus 2:4 - "That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

Titus 2:5 - "To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."

Sincerely,
Bro. Steve Smith

P.S. Don't get mad at the messenger just because you don't like the message. The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

[ May 18, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]

[KeeperOfMyHome]

Ok folks . . . I have this burning question in my heart right now. If I am to be in subjection to and obedient to my husband . . . and if my husband is the head of my home, then why in the name of all that is sacred would God call a woman to be in authority over my husband? :confused:

I do agree that the Bible tells us to submit one to another, however this is not in the context of the church (pastors, preaching, etc).

It is quite sickening to think that I am married to a man that I am to allow to lead our home, and yet some would have that same man submit himself to the leadership of a woman in the church.

This is confusion . . . and we all know who the author that is!

[ May 18, 2001: Message edited by: KeeperOfMyHome ]

[Pam Madore]

Mr. Pioneer--it seems that the scripture would allow women to teach children? After all Timothy learned from his mother and grandmother. Exactly what age do you think a mother can no longer teach her son because he is now a man? :confused:

[KeeperOfMyHome]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pam Madore:
[QB]After all Timothy learned from his mother and grandmother.

But are we not talking of ministries in context of the church and what God calls (and gifts) each born again person to do within the body of the?

[pioneer]

Miss Madore (or Mrs.),

I said what I said in reply to the following statement that you made:

"Actually, about more than half of the preaching I do is to saved Baptist men who are hungry for spiritual growth."

Your "ministry" will never have God's hand of blessing on it because it is contrary to the written word of God.

Sincerely,
Bro. Steve Smith

P.S.
I refuse to get entangled in your silly arguments (II Tim. 3:5 KJV).

[ May 18, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]

[SaggyWoman]

I wish I could stay at home, but who is going to pay the stinking rent????????

[Pam Madore]

Why is it that I don't see a lot of love here? If you all think that I need correcting, why are your comments hard, cold, and bitter? Isn't this exactly what the world sees when they look at the church? Angry, bitter people fighting among themselves? Isn't it possible for us all to just admit that "now we see through a glass darkly" and show a lost world that we love each other? Mr. Pioneer, you say that God will never bless my ministry--is He blessing yours with such bitterness and hatred in your heart? Jesus set me just as free as you. smile.gif

[Joseph_Botwinick]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pam Madore:
Why is it that I don't see a lot of love here? If you all think that I need correcting, why are your comments hard, cold, and bitter? Isn't this exactly what the world sees when they look at the church? Angry, bitter people fighting among themselves? Isn't it possible for us all to just admit that "now we see through a glass darkly" and show a lost world that we love each other? Mr. Pioneer, you say that God will never bless my ministry--is He blessing yours with such bitterness and hatred in your heart? Jesus set me just as free as you. smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pam,

Unfortunately, most Baptist believe they already have all of the answers and nobody else could possibly be right. As for Mr. Pioneer, I don't think you'll be hearing a response from him if he holds true to his word in another forum to never come back to the BaptistBoard which is full of us evil herietics and those who tolerate us. He can't handle the whole concept of soul liberty which is a basic Baptist principle.

God will bless you as long as you are faithful to his calling on your life...not Pioneer's calling. In the end, his is just another of many opinions in Baptist circle which means next to nothing compared to the opinion of God. Pray, study his word for yourself, and listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Do not follow the popular opinions of man...or even the Baptist. Follow the will of God. We have no king but Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!! (John ashcroft said that in a speech given at Bob Jones University...and I agree with him). :D

Joseph

[ May 20, 2001: Message edited by: JBotwinick ]

[The Briguy]

Pam, If Joseph from the last post is telling you to follow your heart and not what the Bible says then that is poor advice. God knows best even when it may differ from our personal opinions. 1 Cor. 14:34-35 says "(as in all the churches of the saints) Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted for them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask thier husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" The greek word for shame means ugly or deformed. If something is deformed it is not what the person intended it to look like. That is the point, God intended the gathered assembly to look a certain way and when a women is speaking in authority to men (teaching, preaching) it defroms that intention or turns it ugly. Pam, you certainly sound like you have a heart for God so move forward but do not deform his intentions. As for the law read what Paul writes in 1 tim. 2:11-12 In verse 12 Paul explains that Adam was not deceived but Eve was deceived and was in transgression
That is why a women can not upsurp the authority of a man, this design was God's law right from the begining of people. Pam, hope this helps, Keep fighting the good fight!

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Briguy said: Pam, If Joseph from the last post is telling you to follow your heart and not what the Bible says then that is poor advice.

My reply: Actually, I encouraged her to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, not her feelings, her heart, or any new age psychobabbel like that. Perhaps you don't believe in soul competency for women. Perhaps you believe that the Holy Spirit doesn't talk to women like he does to men. Yes the Holy Spirit is only for men...right? Ridiculous unless you are a Catholic.

Joseph

[Joy]

I know of only one way the Holy Spirit speaks to us, and that is through the Bible.

There are many ways a woman can and should serve in ministry, but the Bible is very clear about MEN being in leadership positions over the church. There just is no way to get around it. I suffer not a woman to teach or usurp authority over men. It is that clear.

Ladies, go home to your husbands. Be submissive. Love them and your children, so that the Word of God be not blasphemed.

[SaggyWoman]

No hubby to go home to.

No children to love except those in the church.

[Joy]

Saggy, we know you are the exception, here. Though you don't have a husband and children of your own, you can still follow God's plan with respect to church leadership. Your ministry is with children, and to my knowledge, you are not usurping authority over men by ministering to children.

To the married ladies, if you are in your homes, being submissive to your own husbands, and caring for your young ones like God intended women to do, chances are, you won't be as tempted to take over places of authority in the church. Titus 2: 3-5, I Tim. 5:14, Ephesians 5:22-24,33, I Tim. 2:11-3:7

[Pam Madore]

Have you ever noticed how Catholics took an isolated verse or two about Mary and made a theology out of it? Or how charismatics took a few verses about speaking in tongues and made a theology out of that? It is pretty easy to see that THEY are wrong, right? We had better hope, ladies, that when we stand before the Lord on that glorious day that our theology was right. Case in point would be that in 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 reference is made to the fact that women are to keep silent......AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW. Now I may have missed it but I don't remember reading in The Law that women are to keep quiet. Wouldn't that just make you wonder what law Paul might be referring to? Or are we so unteachable that we aren't even willing to explore it? Another thing I could never figure out is why these scriptures don't apply to us ladies as long as we leave the country? Granted Eve was deceived. I have no argument with that. But Adam deliberately CHOSE to disobey God. Do you think a spirit of rebellion is more credible? I do stay at home (that is, I don't have a secular job outside the home) and I am submissive to my husband insofar as he submits to Christ (my daughter is grown) BUT my relationship to God is #1 before my husband, my daughter, my church or anything else. Anything less is idolatry, pure and simple. smile.gif

[KeeperOfMyHome]

Ok, I am interested in knowing why no one answered my question concerning why, if I am to be submissive to my husband and he is the head of my home, would God allow a woman to be in authority over my husband in the Church? I honestly do not see where in the Bible God ever condones a woman being in authority within the Church.

If God commands a woman to be submissive/obedient to her husband, why in the world would He allow that same woman to have authority over men within the Church?

[SaggyWoman]

I am not sure what authority a woman has at church that your husband would need to be submissive to.

[KeeperOfMyHome]

Saggy ~ My question is geared to those who think God would call a woman to a position of leadership (pastor, teaching men in Sunday School, women preaching to men from teh pulpit, etc).

[The Briguy]

Joseph, The Bible is clear on the woman in ministry issue and you told Pam that she should do what the Holy Spirit is leading her to do. The Holy Spirit can not lead her to do that which is contrary to the Bible. You know what she is doing and it aches my heart to see you encourage what Pam is doing.

Pam, You have eluded to Paul's use of the word Law. He said it and it is God's word so it doesn't matter if you don't see it in the Law
If you fight with Paul then you fight with God as Paul wrote God's words. Instead of humbling yourself on this issue, which is so very biblically clear, you keep wanting to fight. Serve Jesus the best you can within the roles God has precribed for us. Good luck as you continue to seek the truth.
KOMH, Great points!!

[Joy]

One verse? Well maybe one sums it up, but the entire Bible has instructions on the roles of men and of women. I gave several already.

What about the qualifications for a pastors and deacons in Titus? How can a woman be the HUSBAND of one wife??????

[Joy]

Woman who are in roles of leadership over men are products of Women's lib movement.

Women are equal in value to men, but their roles in life were designed to be different by God. Just look at our different bodies. They were designed that way for a purpose. The way we think was designed for a purpose.

The Apostle Paul even uses the body as a way to describe how the church works. There can be only one head. Christ designed it to be that the man is the head of the home, and of the church.

[Karen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joy2:
...

What about the qualifications for a pastors and deacons in Titus? How can a woman be the HUSBAND of one wife??????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She can't, that would be a requirement for a man entering such a role, as presumably, Junia the apostle,Phoebe the deacon, the elect lady, and Priscilla fulfilled corresponding requirements.
Karen smile.gif

[KeeperOfMyHome]

Actually, the word used to describe Phebe's ministry in the church is simply servant.

If you search for the word deacon in the NT, it comes with qualifications similar to those of an bishop.

(1 Tim 3:12 KJV) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

And while the term servant and deacon are given the same meaning in Strong's Concordance, I have difficulty agreeing that both men and women are called to be deacons given the underlying qualification of a deacon in 1 Timothy. Namely, husband of one wife.

[SaggyWoman]

SERVANT=DIAKONO=DEACON=PHOEBE.


I am called to a leadership position in my church--non "pastoral", non "deacon", but I in no way usurp authority over men.

[Jette]

Hi Joy,

"The Apostle Paul even uses the body as a way to describe how the church works. There can be only one head. Christ designed it to be that the man is the head of the home, and of the church."

Man is not the head of the church, Christ is. The word head, &lt;i&gt;kephale&lt;i/&gt; in the Greek means, "source, origin, sustainer." If you look at it that way, instead of a chain of command, it makes more sense.

Take care,
Jette smile.gif

[Joy]

Jette, thanks for that good clarification. I have tried to say before that one sex is not more important than the other in a marriage or in a church. They are equal in value, but different in function. Your analogy made that even more clear.

Saggy, I too have a leadership position in my church. I am the director of the ladies fellowship. I often end up with a lot of the scheduling tasks as well. I too have no authority over any man in our church. I don't even really have any authority over the ladies. Even though occasionally there must be an "executive" decision made, we remind each other that we are to be submissive one to another. Mostly, my job is to delegate, so that all of the required tasks get done by someone.

[Sue82]

Since the topic is about positions in the church, what are your opinions about a woman song director? Does anyone see that as having authority over man and if so, why? :confused:

[Joseph_Botwinick]

No problems here....as long as God is calling, go for it. He is our ultimate authority.

Joseph

[Sue82]

It's easier said than done when a few men disagree with the position. A couple of the men have pulled out from the church because of it. I want to do what God wants me to do but it's difficult when obstacles are in your way. I know only time will tell but with these barriors it confuses me on what is right.

[firedome]

To Pam Madore,
You wrote than Eve was deceived but, Adam deliberately chose to disobey God. This is true to a certain point. Eve disobeyed Adam did she not? Read in Ge. 2:16 and you will see that God tells Adam the consequences of eating of that particular tree before Eve is created. So, how did she come to the conclusion that you could die from just touching it? Did God tell Adam this? No. So, someone had to pass along the information and that being Adam considered to help God out by telling his wife not to even touch it let alone eat it or she would die. Does this not point to rebellion on the womans part? I am not discounting Adam's role in this play. He stands convicted right alongside Eve.
From all this we see the sentence in verses 16 and 17. Quite fitting don't you think?

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Sue,

I just noticed you are from Arkansas. I live in Jacksonville. What church do you attend?

Joseph

[Joy]

IMHO, that is on a very thin line with teaching and usurping authority. I was trained in music and could lead a choir if I chose to. I turned it down, because I wasn't comfortable with having to be the teacher of men. It's not preaching or teaching of doctrine, but my conscience wouldn't let me ride that line, so I don't do it.

[Joy]

Oh, and by the way, there is a reason why I moderate the Baptist Women's forum and not the Pastor's Forum!! :D :D

[SaggyWoman]

That is interesting, Joy, because men come to the women's forum. In a sense, isn't that taking authority from a man when he should be doing it??

[KeeperOfMyHome]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBotwinick:
[QB]No problems here....as long as God is calling, go for it. He is our ultimate authority.

Uh-huh . . . and He would never call someone to do something that goes against His word. The Bible is our guide for living our lives (2 Tim. 3:16, 17).

[Joy]

I guess I asked for that one! :D Actually, this is the Webmaster's Board, and he has final say in everything. There are a few men who dare to come to a mostly women's domain, :D but I am not in authority over them. I don't teach them directly, (although I might argue with a few of them.) :D This is also not a church! :eek:

As a moderator, my job is to "trim" when necessary. I can delete double posts and bad language, etc. I don't think that is usurping authority. Most of the threads started here are geared to women, even though the male perspective is welcome.

[KeeperOfMyHome]

Sue ~ One thing I would consider is this . . . sometimes what we do is offensive to others. It might be that for the time being you might have to give it up. I would really pray about it and seek God's wisdom in the matter.

[SaggyWoman]

That is how I view the music person. You still have authority in that you can cut a man's opinion out of the board. . . .

The same at church. . . I am under my pastor's authority .. . . . ..

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: SaggyWoman ]

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: SaggyWoman ]

[Joy]

I suppose you are right in a sense, in that I have the password to do so. We as moderators are striving to strike a balance between cutting wherever we please, and just trimming when needed. I am not deleting just because I don't agree with someone, even when I think it is not Scriptural. (unless I know it is something the webmaster does not want here- believe me the moderators discuss a few things like that!)
As with any other person on the BB, I still have the right to debate it. I have only deleted a couple double postings and bad language. The 2 threads that were closed were do to length mostly. I will probably have to close this one soon too! :D :eek:

In a sense, I am doing secretarial work for the webmaster.

I do not have any authority over anyone here on the BB, but just to make sure I do not offend any gentlemen who might look at moderating as authority, I asked the webmaster if I could do the ladies forum instead of others.

[Sue82]

Thank you for your responses. The male director and myself may have to put this on hold for a while. I ask that you join me in prayer about this manner and the Lord leads as He would has us to worship and not our own feelings of tradition. Remember there are several women who have prominent positions in the Bible. Consider Deborah, Pheobe, Rahab, Lydia, and Prisilla. Not to mention others who were very valuable to the Apostle Paul and others and I don't just to feed and clean up after them. I don't think we, as women, are suppose to be preachers or deacons. However, I feel that we are much stiffled in the way that we are currently worshipping our Lord and Savior. May the Spirit of Christ be with you all. smile.gif

[Joy]

On that note, I think I will end this thread do to length. It has also digressed quite a bit from it's original question. Thanks for the good discussion and for keeping it above board. :D