Would you take them in your church?

[SaggyWoman]

Would your church accept a couple who is a mixed race? (for example one is white, and the other isn't?)

[DocCas]

There is only one race on this planet, the human race!

The only "race" we find in the bible is the race we are to run.

"Where there is race there is no grace, and where there is grace there is no race!"

[Dr. Bob]

How or why would you NOT take them in if they met qualifications (saved, baptized, of good report)?

While a couple with mixed ethnicity will have difficult times in some areas of society, I can't imagine the local church being one of those!

Despite the media impression, Christians are NOT racists!

[Squire Robertsson]

If they meet the criteria laid out by Dr. Bob, the only objections to this couple would be based on bad theology or bad science.

Keith

[Barnabas H.]

In the greater NYC Metro area Churches we do not see any problem with this question whatsoever. But then again folks at this part of the country are suffering from a rare disease called, "color blindness!" :D

[Don]

Nah, we don't want anyone who doesn't meet our particular set of standards that we've managed to twist scripture around to justify ourselves into feeling like we're superior to everyone else....

Hey, all sarcasm intended!

[Joseph_Botwinick]

"If you don't look like me you're going to hell.
If you don't look like me you're going to hell.

Well, the truth is plain to see there's only one way to be and if you don't look like me you're going to Hell."

Come down to the racist hillbilly South and you will understand why Saggy asks this question. I was raised to believe it was a sin to date or marry black people...thank God that I was delievered from that form of racism. BTW, the verse used to back up that manmade racist theology was where it says to not be unequally yoked. God freed me from this form of Bigotry when a black friend in college asked me out on a date, I turned her down, she asked me why, and I didn't have an answer for her. I was deeply ashamed of myself.

Joseph

[Joy]

Racism isn't just a problem to the South, or to the ungodly, it does exist in Baptist circles. I have heard the be ye not unequally yoked argument since I was a kid, but never bought it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how badly that verse is taken out of context.

I firmly believe that we need to stop calling people by their skin color, and use their name, or just call them a man or a woman. I am so tired of hearing preachers who say they are not racist, but have to specifically give the color of the person's skin they are talking about. I never hear them say, "We used to have this white guy in our church, but he was such a devout Christain." They do say things like that if the skin of the man is other than white! Then they say they are not racist? What difference does it make what color skin they have. I never want to hear what color a person is in stories and sermon illustrations again! If you are guilty of it, shame on you!

In applications, I check "other", and then write human being in the explaination column.

( sorry, just a little pet peeve! :eek: :D )

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joy2:
In applications, I check "other", and then write human being in the explaination column.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! I do exactly the same thing! Good for you! Every year the California Department of Education askes us to report how many students we have and segregate them by race. I just tell the state our folks are all human! :D

[Gina B]

I check other too. smile.gif
I've found in my area a lot of hidden racism. Yes, we will accept a mixed race. Yes, we will talk to you and politely invite you to dinner when you first start coming. But in the privacy of our own homes, we will talk bad about your race and make little cracks about you.
I've seen this little scene replayed so often it makes me want to vomit. Everyody wants to be politically correct, or at least give that illusion, but it seems to me that almost everybody in every church I've gone to is too racist. I say too racist because to a certain point I believe we all are.
Last year I went into a Christian school to fill out an enrollment form for my daughter. She was not with me at the time. The school was extremely kind, showing much desire to have my daughter in their program. After they had read the application however, suddenly they thought we wouldn't fit in with their program. It took me a little bit to realize that I had written her race down.
I have also encountered racism to a point in the churches I've attended. People assume my children have certain capabilities based on their race, or they bend down and talk to them in an accent, or assume they prefer certain foods. Somehow, witnessing to my unsaved husband always seemed so important at first, then when they actually met him it suddenly seemed less important to have him in the church.
But of course when he did come, everybody was eager to be the first in line th shake his hand and welcome him. Wouldn't want to appear racist you know.

[Pastor Steve]

I have a number of people attend my church who are not white (by the definition of many) They have one thing in common. They are college students. Our people love them and they feel at home (except for our music I'm told). God told Peter in Acts 10 that he is not a respector of persons and I think that that is where we ought to be also. It used to puzzle me that people would spend tons of money to send missionaries to Africa and ignore the person of African heritage who lived across the street from them. We are different, but God likes that. Wouldn't it be a boring world if everyone looked like me (short, fat and swarthy skinned)?

My wife and I at this current time are not being spoken to by her parents because her brother married a beautiful godly black woman. Our crime? We went to the wedding and have supported the marriage. While I hate to use the term racism, our prejudice toward those who are of a different culture is simply wicked. How can we despise those for whom Christ died?

[Squire Robertsson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Steve:
....While I hate to use the term racism, our prejudice toward those who are of a different culture is simply wicked. How can we despise those for whom Christ died?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A good term and perhaps a more accurate one is ethnocentric rather than racists. This means my ethnic group is superior/threaten to/by yours. We can see this being played out in the Balkans.

Keith

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I wonder what Smokey might say about something like this!!!!! ;)

Joseph

[Joy]

Common on J. no need to egg anyone on. We really don't need to know what he thinks, do we? We already know. Let's not solicite a bunch of rubbish!

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Joy,

You're right...sorry. I just couldn't help myself. I just think that maybe he has an opinion, whether I agree or not. Sometimes I think it is good to remind ourselves why we talk about issues like this because there are still a lot of people who think like Smokey does. I mean, I have lived in Arkansas all my life and understand bigotry in its worst forms...but, perhaps there are still people who maybe live further north of the Mason Dixon line and think that it is silly to think that anyone, especially church going people, could still be so prejudice.

Joseph

[Dr. Bob]

This is a little lengthy but adds greatly to the discussion on the "race" issue. In his column, "Abolishing Census Categories MW Cox had this insight editorial: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In a recent column, George Will of the Washington Post, makes a thoughtful contribution to the national dialogue on race.

In that column, Mr. Will calls for the elimination of race classifications in the government census. Regular readers know that is a position I have long advocated. I welcome Mr. Will to my side of the debate.

Mr. Will in a recent editorial acknowledges that racial identities do not fall into "fixed, easily definable categories." He notes for example, the law once classified the "Irish" race as nonwhite.

At the same time, he opens the door to include the following as members of the white brotherhood: Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Jesse Owns and Roy Campanella; by virtue of the fact that each of these Americans had a white parent. He affirms in the white-race cousinhood Martin Luther King, who had a white grandmother, as well as W.E.B. Du Bois and Malcolm X, who had white ancestry.

When President Clinton called on Americans to begin a constructive dialogue about race, I am confident he didn’t expect to hear from George Will. The President expected the conversation about race to be conducted within the traditional black/white racial paradigm; the way Americans always talk about race (white domination and black victimization). That didn’t happen, because many Americans are getting over their obsession with race and becoming more inclusive and tolerant of others who look different.

More Americans are marrying other-race spouses than ever before. According to the census, the number of interracial children in 1990 exceeded 2 million. Will says, the census racial category ‘Other’ doesn’t correctly describe these children.

As he put it, "…the ‘other’ category is unsatisfactory, because it does not contribute to an accurate snapshot of the population, and it offends sensibilities: Why should a child of a white-black marriage be required to identify with one parent, or as an ‘Other’?"

The answer to Will’s question, is this; Many Americans, and the President may be among them, don’t want to eliminate government racial categories. These Americans say that if we end race classifications there will be no way for the responsible agencies of government to track the progress, or lack thereof, toward eliminating racial discrimination.

To those who argue that we need government racial bean-counters to track race discrimination; I say, "cow manure." Clearly, it doesn’t take the United States government to tell you when somebody is being discriminated against. Just watch the U.S. Senate debate on C-SPAN or look at a picture of the members of the board of directors of any major corporation. You would not be reading this column if you were oblivious to the fact that far too few women and people of color are in either picture.

At the same time, you are equally blinded if you see skin color, by itself, as the determining factor in anything: not rates of poverty, not crime, not fatherlessness, nor any of the other social pathologies government racial bean-counters so often ascribe to dark-skinned Americans.

The sad reality is race classification taints the individual’s internalized value system, spoiling the way individuals views themselves. Classifying individuals into racial groups results in group-thinking, with members of the group exchanging individuality for a group-identity. In America, both stereotypes; white superiority and black inferiority, stem from group-thinking.

Our culture tends to program many white people to see themselves as superior to non-white people. Therefore, non-white folks are forced to accept an inferior view of themselves or re-internalize their perceived inferior status as one of victimization.

George Will’s column does the American people a great service by providing wide publication of some of the absurdities surrounding government racial classifications.

As Americans learn to identify and avoid the irrational aspects of racial-group-think politics, our nationhood will be strengthened. Until that time, we will continue to be divided by such mundane human traits as skin color, hair texture and eye appearance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SPAM]

Saggy woman, in my lifetime, I can not remember having this scenario happen in the churches I was part of. According to most people's belief, I guess that makes me less than a credible source on the issue. But when I hear questions like this, and see christians accept others as Christ accepted us, I can't help but think how much God is pleased.

Out of the small flock I presently pastor, this is a real issue, for we have one couple that is a "mixed-marriage" union.

I am not proud nor am I wanting extra thought on this issue, but for what it's worth, I just asked the husband to be on the board of trustees: he accepted.

I feel folks that call themselves christian, that harbor racism, are gonna have a attitude adjustment period to go through once they arrive in glory. {But, again, that's my opinion and I know some of you know how I feel about opinions}

The no respector of persons remark is probably one of the most relevent, to this question.

P.S. With the racism that is forced down the throat of each of us, it's easy for us to get wrapped up in it. My area produces folks like Quannel X, Sheila Jackson Lee {the politician}, and the like that claim their belief in God while demanding "extras" because of color. Lest we forget, "the Rev. Jesse Jackson" is an ordained "baptist" minister::::::: redface.gifuch, I know that hurt. My point being, every day it seems we hear of one more "cause" or "agenda" that they rally behind. Keeping these thoughts in constant memory, the devil is doing a great job of tearing us apart. That's the real sadness to this issue; it has corrupted the church and deemed many folks, by their own prejudices, to be rendered useless for the kingdom.

[SaggyWoman]

Please understand, Spam, that growing up, I was not "exposed" to what I felt was any problem with mixed race anything.

I was speaking to someone the other day, and she told me that when she was dating a black man about 8 years ago, she went to her church with her boyfriend, and a deacon saw they were dating. He told them that they were unwelcome in that church.

This was only a few years ago. Last year in this church, many in the congregation were wanting to help a homeless family, and someone in the church asked if it was good to help a mixed race family, because it was like approving their relationship.

I wanted to vomit.

[jesparks]

I pastor an inner city church in LaGrange Georgia. We have couple who are mixed race in our community. It has been very hard to get them to come to our church because of the perceived racism of the community. They are certainly welcome and we make every effort to reach them. Their children come, but getting the couples to come has been hard. We havent given up though!

[Dr. Bob]

The most segregated hour in America is 11:00 on Sunday morning. We will pray that our churches reject even subtle racism and unite families on the Word of God.

When my ancestors came to America, they were Roman Catholic Irish. They were treated as de facto "slaves", shunned by WASP society, and forced into the lowest eschelon of America. Even during the War (Civil) they were accepted only into all-Irish units.

50 years later the process was repeated with the Italian influx of immigrants.

We ignored this growing part of society and left it up to the papists to show love and concern for them. How many Irish Catholics are there now in America? How many strong Italian-American BAPTIST churches are there?

Today, we are watching history repeat itself. We are treating various ethnic groups that are not WASP (white anglo-saxon protestant) the same -- the Hispanic population, the Blacks, the Orientals, and any mixed marriages. I say this to my shame.

When we will learn to love Jesus so much that we become color blind?

[Barnabas H.]

Dr. Bob, I was under the impression that you had a Jewish background. At least that is the impression I got from other posts.... :confused:

[Dr. Bob]

I have four grandparents:

Paternal Grandmother - Bohemian Jew
Paternal Grandfather - Drunken Irishman

Maternal Grandmother - Welsh royalty
Maternal Grandfather - Drunken Scotsman

Doesn't say too much for the choices of the women in my family tree, does it? :rolleyes:

And feel even more sympathy for my kids - on my wife's side they are related to the Kennedy's! Talk about drunken immoral Irishmen! :eek:

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Dr. Bob,

I knew there was something wrong with you and now I know what it is....you're a Kennedy!!!!! ;)

Honestly...I just don't know if I could ever allow a Kennedy in my church :D

I am just kidding...don't everyone get upest...ok?

Joseph

[Larry]

A link to an good article http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4119.asp#f4

[Gina B]

I think sometimes we take racism as an issue too far. People talk about someday all the world will be all mixed up, we should not see color when we look at someone, etc.
It's all good up to a point. I myself prefer to see color. I even think some segregetion is a good thing. Not forced, but there are differences in different races. I see a lot of difference in the way black Baptist churches worship, the music they prefer, Chinese churches have their own style, white churches have their own preferences. These are cultural, and should be preserved. As far as mixed races, wherever they choose to worship should not be a problem. They should be accepted anywhere.
People tend to congregate with people who have the same cultural background, and that's a good thing. All Americans should be able to express their own cultural background through their lives, and it seems to me that it is the difference in culture that is attacked at least as violently as the race itself, and nobody seems to get it.
As for me, I love to see the different colors, the differences in cultures, and the vibrancy those things can bring into our lives.
Gina

[JohnTS]

I pastor an SBC church, and if the couple meets the qualifications for membership, (saved and baptized, not under another church's discipline) then they would be accepted without further delay.

[Pastor KevinR]

This is very interesting as I was considering starting a topic of mixed marriages.I was raised near an army base just south of Louisville called Ft.Knox. I used to see the Black soldiers with their White girlfriends and get angry saying to myself that they should stay with their own kind! :mad: However, I woke up!Funny, after a few years, I became ordained in an IFB BLACK church in Brooklyn! And I met my wife there!I am White from Kentucky, and my wife is Black from Jamaica, West Indies! Of course my church accepts our marriage, afterall, I'm the Pastor! Can you imagine what our children will sound like, as I am from Ky, and my wife is from the Carribean? LOL! (God hasn't given us any yet :( )I've heard silly arguments against mixed marriages but they do not hold water as the Bible condemns mixing the Jewish faith with the pagans around them, which was race-based THEN.I can't tell you what color Moses was, but he married an Ethiopian, didn't he? Some actually use this as an argument against mixing, but this is silly. God calls Moses humble in Numbers 12, whereas his brother and sister God was displeased with.
Another note, all my family love my wife dearly, and they all live in Ky,Tn, and Ga.PTL!

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Hats off to Gina for daring to express the forbidden viewpoint! I'm still waiting for the race-haters to barrage her with all sorts of false accusations.

Any mis-treatment of a person based on race is an evil thing. However that doesn't mean that we have to (or should) wipe out the beautiful races that we find in our world. I agree that there is nothing wrong with people voluntarily associating within their races...not based on any theory of superiority, simply an appreciation for one's heritage, culture, and background, and desire to preserve same.

[Circuitrider]

A great current book to consider in helping Christians develop a biblical viewpoint about the human race is Ken Ham's book, "ONE BLOOD." He shows the evolutionary concept inherent in the word race as commonly used, and he opens the door for biblical Christians to come out of the closet and deal with this sin.

One black evangelist has published a gospel tract "Sin, not Skin" which puts it pretty much in the right perspective.

Needless to say we would welcome a mixed marriage couple in our church, in fact we currently have such a dating couple attending our church who recently accepted Christ and I am working with them in the opening steps of discipleship.

[John3v36]

SaggyWoman said:

Would your church accept a couple who is a mixed race? (for example one is white, and the other isn't?)
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
If Jesus took them in his church why would I not take them into our church (after all it is HIS Church) smile.gif

[Johnv]

I live in Southern California. There's no one majority race in this area. I've never known a time in my life where there WEREN'T some mixed race couples and marriages. To date, I haven't seen any adverse effects of mixed race families in my lifetime, at least not within church congregations.

[stubbornkelly]

I agree that Gina makes an excellent point about trying to hard to ignore different cultures and ethnicities. I think too many people try to make a big deal out of being color blind. I think we all at least notice when someone doesn't look like us. Now, to use mistreat someone based on that difference, that's bad, but to notice? Nothing wrong with that.

I hear white people use the phrase "color blind" more than anyone else. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just my experience. But when we had a big meeting about race at my college (we had had a racially motivated attack on a student - pretty clear it was so -- they wrote "nigger" on her body in magic marker :mad: ), and the only students who used that phrase were white, and it was often preceded or followed by the inevitable statement about not being racist. It's as though their saying they were color blind proved they weren't racist, when, if anything, it seemed to indicate that they were really not all that comfortable with other races. You know, "I've got black friends . . . " and all that. But only the white students used that phrase - that I noticed. It just seems that when someone uses that phrase they're really saying "I don't notice they're not white." I don't know, maybe that's because 'white' is the default, for lack of a better word, in American culture, and there seems to be more of a focus on not noticing that non-white people aren't white than there seems to be on not noticing that white people aren't not white. Although my old college roommate went to a predominantly black high school in St. Louis, and her friends liked to laugh and say, "Kendall isn't white!"

In many ways, I think not to notice (or to claim one doesn't notice) is ignoring what many people consider to be part of their identity. I had a professor who said she wanted people to notice that she's black. She said that not to notice is to ignore part of her cultural identity and her uniqueness.

Again, to notice isn't bad, and some people even consider it good, but to use our physical differences in making judgements on a person's character, class, career, et cetera is when it becomes negative.

Phew! Back on topic, Kelly! smile.gif

My home church had very few members that were not white. Probably fewer than 50 -- in a church with over 1000 members. And I don't think we ever had a married couple in which both parties were of different ethnicities. I don't think anyone would have been exluded from membership, but I just remember how strange peole thought it was when a white couple adopted a mixed race child. They didn't stay with the church too long after that. A mixed race couple may be socially excluded, but since I don't think there have been any, I can't say for sure. My home church just doesn't seem to be very welcoming to non-whites. I mean, they don't tell non-white people that they can't come in, but it's just not a very receptive community. Very few non-whites who visit actually become members. I'm sorry to say I'm not too surprised.

Now I live just outside DC, and I'm the racial minority in my neighborhood (I'm white), and my office is a fairly good mix of ethnicities. The Quaker meeting I attend is certainly open to anyone of any race, and to couples of any race and ethnicity combination. Most of the people attracted to Quakerism are white, which accounts for some of the whiteness among Friends, but this meeting is more ethnically diverse than my home church. I can't contribute that to much of anything, though, given the ethnic and racial diversity of the DC metro area, as opposed to the suburbs of Richmond.

[Sojourner]

Until a few years ago, the Holy Spirit had not convicted me of anything in myself resembling ethnocentrism. Culturally, I was and still am uncomfortable with seeing mixed relationships, but I'm growing out of it.

Two areas that helped me most to recognize and confess my own narrowness - conversations, lectures, and sermons by Tony Evans of the Urban Alternative (especially his expertise on "The most segregated hour in America is Sunday at 11am"). The other is a book by Phillip Yancey, What's so Amazing about Grace?, which reveals the author's own move away from prejudice. Both of these sources help me to acknowledge and seek forgiveness from those I have hurt with my own self centeredness - see, I can't even blame it on ethnocentricity anymore redface.gif

An earlier post is correct on a basic idea. To not discuss the subject with an urban brother or sister lets the rift continue, yet sensitivity must be used graciously for there can be hard feelings that are difficult to overcome with a brief apology or short talk. We can only hope to open doors and loosen the rust from hinges, or reopen bridges of communication that have been long disused, but only in His timing. Especially since with Him, nothing is impossible. smile.gif

Praise God that just as the walls of Jericho tumbled, the Berlin wall was completely deconstructed, and one day the walls of racism, bigotry, and discrimination will be destroyed. :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :cool:

[onevoice]

Originally posted by SaggyWoman:
Would your church accept a couple who is a mixed race? (for example one is white, and the other isn't?)This is not a reason to deny a person the right to worship Christ in your church. Why would you even ask this????

[stubbornkelly]

Feel blessed that you don't have to deal with prejudice in your church, onevoice, that you can't understand why such a question would be asked, or don't know that such exclusions do happen.

Some people, right or wrong, would say that that is a reason to exclude people from a church.

[onevoice]

I grew up in an all white town and presently live in a town with about .5% population of blacks. I dont' care what the church members think. This couple has as much right to worship as anyone else. I would accept them with open arms. If the church has a problem with it you may want to explain to them that Jesus wasn't an American. . he was (gasp) JEWISH. ;)

My question is not why the question would be asked, but why it would be asked by a CHRISTIAN, especially a church leader. If you don't accept them, you are conforming to the worldly views of your church (see Romans 12:1-2)and letting them know that you would rather make them happy than to (1) be a witness for Christ to the couple (2) be in the will of God.

[ August 22, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: onevoice ]

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by JBotwinick:
I wonder what Smokey might say about something like this!!!!! ;)

JosephJoseph --

If you are speaking of SmokeEater, perhaps I
don't know him as you do, but I find this post to
be totally offensive. Yes, I am irritated, but how
could you possibly speak of another person
on this board where he may not see your post
so that he could defend himself? This clearly
stinks. If the two of you will erase your posts
before he sees them, I will erase this one as
quickly as I know.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On another note, I live in Washington State,
and the two SDA churches in my small city
are segregated. It is well-known that they
are. It is not just the South. And there are
plenty of Christian Identity churches in
Idaho..

[ August 22, 2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

[7-Kids]

My husband and I are a mixed marriage. I mean really, we are in such an impossible situation. It could never work. Talk about totally incompatible cultures. This is a real doozy. :confused: Really people, it's just terrible. We were told that it just was not a wise move. We have, like 5 strikes against us!! Here they are. :D

1.He is actually from THE DEEP SOUTH while I am definitely born and bred a YANKEE. :eek: If that's not a recipe for trouble, I don't know what is.
2.He is OLD. He was 34 when we got married. I am YOUNG. I was almost 21 when we got married. WOW! Real trouble brewing!!
3. His dad was ENLISTED (you know---the guys who do all the work!). My dad was an OFFICER (the guys that get all the credit!) To top it off, he was enlisted too. tongue.gif
4.He was from a POOR family. I was from an UPPER MIDDLE class family.
5.He is TALL. I am SHORT. :rolleyes:

I mean, really if you want to go by appearances, let's be consistent. My marriage is definitely MIXED. About the only thing we DO have in common is the color of our skin. ;)

I hope this shows how ridiculous it seems to me to deny fellowship to someone just because of their skin color. :mad: That has to be about the lamest thing I have heard in a long time. I just couldn't help being a little humorous about :D it.

[Mrs, KJV]

If they are married, yes. Just dating? ;)

[SaggyWoman]

Interesting and valid point, SixKids.