How were the OT saints saved?

[i_am_saved]

Before Christ died on the cross, what did a person have to do in order to have eternal life?

[Scott J]

This is answered in Romans 3 and 4. In Romans 3:19-20, Paul under inspiration declares that no flesh is justified by the law. (In Romans 7, Paul says that sin used the law to slay him spiritually.) The law and prophets were witnesses to the coming Christ, Romans 3:21. Verses 25 and 26 plainly says that past sins were paid for by Christ's blood and that past sinners were justified by belief in Jesus.

Chapter 4 goes into a fair amount of detail on how father Abraham was not justified by his works but by his faith in God's promise to make him the father of many nations. This passage demonstrates that this was not only a physical promise but a spiritual promise that the Promised Seed would come through his lineage and save those who shared in Abraham's faith.

I hope this helps a little. A study of the first 7 chapters of Romans can fill in more details.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott J:
Verses 25 and 26 plainly says that past sins were paid for by Christ's blood and that past sinners were justified by belief in Jesus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just check 3:25-26 again and can't find any reference to people in the past being saved by belief in Jesus.

I took a lot of heat for my explanation of this question in another thread (false teachers I believe). However, no one has yet answered the essential points I made. I believe that OT believers were saved by faith in God, responding in faith and obedience to the content of the revelation which they were responsible for. Perhaps you might read there to save the time of reposting all that here.

[Chris Temple]

The same way all people are: by grace, through faith.

Faith is not a work that saves, but rather a gift of grace. They, as we are given the right faith we need to be saved.

They believed in Christ promised, and we believe in Christ fulfilled.

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth;

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

Luke 24:25-27 And he said to them, "O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things."

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad."

[Dr. Chris Connally]

John 14:1-6 is a great passage of Scripture. Jesus said that "no man comes to the Father but by ME." He said this before He died on that cross. I believe that people starting with Adam and Eve had to believe in the promise given in Genesis 3:15. Hebrews 11:39 And those all, having obtained a good report through faith, recieved not the promise: What was their faith in? I believe it was in that promise made in Genesis 3:15 and later on to men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc..

[Scott J]

Pastor Larry,

I have added vs. 24 for further clarification in the quotes below but really vs. 19 and on provide the context.

KJV
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

NASB
Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The word propitiation is much more meaningful than most people realize. It includes not only a substitutional sacrifice but also a suggestion of the place and means of the act. The understanding would be the sacrifice made in the holy temple for the sins of the people. I believe this to be a direct link between the sin sacrifices of the Mosaic law and Christ's being the final, sufficient lamb.

Notice that past sins are referred to in vs. 25. This could be limited to the sins committed previously in one's life. However, that conclusion does not agree with the context. "All" have sinned and are justified in the same way...by Christ's atoning death. If the context is taken all the way back to the beginning of chapter 2, it becomes even more clear that Paul referring to the past way of salvation and its perfection in Christ. The law and the prophets (past) witnessed the coming Messiah so that the OT saints might have faith in Him for redemption.

The idea that anyone is saved by the law or covenants of the past is refuted in chapter 4 as Paul establishes that even Abraham was justified by faith, not works.

God bless you all.

[Dr. Bob]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by i_am_saved:
Before Christ died on the cross, what did a person have to do in order to have eternal life?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Any belief that centers in what a person has to do to get to heaven is teaching something false. :(

It is all on what Christ has DONE and the gift of saving grace HE gives. What part of "not of works" is difficult to understand! smile.gif

[Peter A. Sarjeant]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Any belief that centers in what a person has to do to get to heaven is teaching something false.

It is all on what Christ has DONE and the gift of saving grace HE gives. What part of "not of works" is difficult to understand! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dr. Bob www.grif.net (http://www.grif.net)


Amen to that. That is Bible. Ahmed

[ June 23, 2001: Message edited by: Barnabas J. Halo ]

[Barnabas H.]

Welcome to the board "Ahmed!" Sorry for going into your message but I see that you had problem in putting Dr. Griffin's words in quotation (so I did it for you).

If you want to quote a person's posting, all you have to do is click the " " signs, and erase everything after and before the [ ] signs, of which you do not want to include in the quotation. This will help when a previous post is a very, very, very long text. Welcome again! smile.gif

[swaimj]

There is a distinction we should make between what saved people in the OT, and the object of their faith. Jesus is one whose death provides the way of salvation in every age. As Dr. Cassidy pointed out on another thread, Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. His death is the only provision of salvation. However the content of the gospel (death burial and resurrection of Christ) was not given in the OT. Neither was the name Jesus given in the OT. That name is necessary for salvation today. So, I think Pastor Larry is correct; OT saints were saved by believing the revelation they were given, though that revelation was incomplete. Based upon their faith, the work of Christ was applied to them.

[Peter A. Sarjeant]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Welcome to the board "Ahmed!" Sorry for going into your message but I see that you had problem in putting Dr. Griffin's words in quotation (so I did it for you).
If you want to quote a person's posting, all you have to do is click the " " signs, and erase everything after and before the [ ] signs, of which you do not want to include in the quotation. This will help when a previous post is a very, very, very long text. Welcome again!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you so much Brother Barnabus. Much appreciated. smile.gif Ahmed

[Pastor Larry]

Scott,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The word propitiation is much more meaningful than most people realize.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am well aware of the meaning of propitiation. I think you read a bit much into it by saying a suggestion of the place and act but there is nothing lost necessarily. It just puts a little more weight on it than it can bear.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"All" have sinned and are justified in the same way...by Christ's atoning death.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not disagreed with this. In fact, if you read my other posts, you will find that I have explicitly and without qualification agreed with this. That is not the question. The question we are dealing with is what was the content of the faith? What were they supposed to believe? To say that they were supposed to believe the person and work of Christ is to say something that is not revealed in the OT. Every verse quoted so far in support of believing Christ in the OT is from the NT and has a legitimate interpretation that protects the perspicuity of the OT. No one has yet to point out a verse in the OT where anyone was told to believe in Christ for salvation as they are in the NT. It would have been anachronistic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The idea that anyone is saved by the law or covenants of the past is refuted in chapter 4 as Paul establishes that even Abraham was justified by faith, not works.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I too agree whole heartedly with this. Again, it has nothing to do with the issue.

[Chris Temple]

Larry:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To say that they were supposed to believe the person and work of Christ is to say something that is not revealed in the OT. Every verse quoted so far in support of believing Christ in the OT is from the NT and has a legitimate interpretation that protects the perspicuity of the OT. No one has yet to point out a verse in the OT where anyone was told to believe in Christ for salvation as they are in the NT. It would have been anachronistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So you do not believe in progressive revelation and the use of the OT Scriptures by the Apostles to prove that Christ was the Messiah?

Rom 16:25 ¶ Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith——
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.


Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So you do not believe in progressive revelation and the use of the OT Scriptures by the Apostles to prove that Christ was the Messiah?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely do believe in progressive revelation, Chris. That is my whole point. Progressive revelation recognizes that all was not revealed at the same time. The work of the Messiah was progressively revealed throughout the OT in increasing amounts but never in full. Your position, that people in teh OT were saved by believing in Christ, seems to deny that very point. You cannot believe in what has not yet been revealed. If you read my other posts you will see where I very clearly assert the OT prophecies of Christ the MEssiah. Yet nowhere is it said in the OT that people were saved by believing those prophecies.

I think one of the major problems of covenant theology is its essential denial of the progressive nature of revelation. To say that the NT must be used to properly understand the OT violates the perspicuity of the OT and the principle of progressive revelation because it says that the OT was not enough for its purpose at the time. I believe that at each stage of revelational history, the revelation given by God was sufficient for his redemptive purposes. The OT must be able to stand on its own or progressive revelation falls by the wayside.

[ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

[Chris Temple]

Larry:

I asked my question somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it was late, and I forgot a smiley face. I hope you were not offended.

We agree on more than we disagree; I am not CT but more New CT, and I believe in progressive revelation.

Although I do believe that Christ is revealed in the OT as the apostles demonstrated, and they proved Christ from Scripture, and Jesus and the apostles also "used the NT" (creating it, by teaching) to explain the OT w/o doing damage to its perspicuity.

I also think it is quite clear that the OT saints were given the faith they needed to be justified - faith in God and his promised redemption.

[Kurt The Baptist]

The OT saints had there sins pushed foward every year by the animal sacrfice made by the high priest. This went on year after year, and because there sins were not attoned for, they had to wait in paradise until Jesus died on the cross.

BTW, you cant do anything to get into Heaven, but what you do can keep you out.

they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:13

[Dr. Bob]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kurtthebaptist:
BTW, you cant do anything to get into Heaven, but what you do can keep you out.

" . . they were judged every man according to their works." Rev 20:13<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And then the following verses clarify that no works can save but only are used to justify your condemnation to hell. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>THAT, not my works, is the basis of God's judgment.

[MARANATHA2000]

I believe the O.T. saints were all saved the same way we were (assuming all here are saved, hopefully) , by accepting JESUS as their salvation. JESUS was given as HIS birth name, but he is also known as.

1. THE SEED of the woman
2. THE MESSIAH
3. THE BRANCH
4. I AM
5. CHRIST
I am sure there are other names also that directly identify the personage of who, THE ONE we call JESUS is. So accepting salvation in any of these names will get you saved.

In the O.T. every book there teaches of JESUS CHRIST. HIS BIRTH, HIS DEATH, HIS RESURRECTION, and HIS PROPHETIC RETURN. The whole bible is about JESUS and HIS plan of salvation that HE has provided for man.

We can read about one of the plaques that GOD placed on Egypt. The blood was placed on the door frames of homes, so that the plaque of death on the first born, would pass by. The blood here was representing the cross. The blood was placed on each side of the door, and on the top and bottom, exactly where CHRIST'S hands, head, and feet were on the cross. This is just one example of how the O.T. is teaching of CHRIST.

In the O.T. their faith was in MESSIAH. The promised SEED that would take away the sins of the world. They may not have known all the details on how HE was going to accomplish this feat, but they never the less believed, that HE was coming to save them.

We on the other hand, know how HE accomplished this feat of salvation. By accepting the faithful historic account of the N.T. The O.T. saints believed on the MESSIAH in a future setting. We believe in this same MESSIAH, named JESUS, as a past historical fulfillment of all past O.T. prophecy, and of the prophetic future to come. PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

[Pastor Larry]

I notice that your post (like all the others espousing your position) fails to give even one verse of OT Scripture where an OT person is told to believe in JEsus for salvation. Is there a reason why no one is citing Scripture here?

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I notice that your post (like all the others espousing your position) fails to give even one verse of OT Scripture where an OT person is told to believe in JEsus for salvation. Is there a reason why no one is citing Scripture here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry:

Jesus himself taught that the OT Scriptures were sufficient for expecting his incarnation and his atonement: was Jesus wrong that the Scriptures spoke of him?

Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Gal 3:6-9 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

[ July 02, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

[Pastor Larry]

Reread my post. I said that he like others had failed to quote any OT Scripture that told an OT person to believe in Jesus for salvation. So you jump in and quote NT Scriptures (that, IMHO, do not prove your point anyway--those verses are absolutely consistent with what I have been saying all along). The challenge still stands -- Cite an OT Scripture that tells a person to believe in Jesus for salvation. BTW, your Gal citations says that Abraham believed God, something that I would wholeheartedly agree with. Everyone in the OT was saved by believing God.

Chris, I think you are confusing the issue. The issue is not does the OT reveal a coming Messiah who would atone for sins -- It does. The issue is not does the atonement of Christ save all men in all times -- It does. The issue is what is the specific content of belief in the OT. I am challenging you, or anyone of your opinion, to back up your position with OT Scripture, the revelation that an OT person would have had.

My point is that the NT is so clear on this issue: Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. If the NT made it so clear and the OT is the same, then where is the clear citation?

[ July 02, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Chris, I think you are confusing the issue. The issue is not does the OT reveal a coming Messiah who would atone for sins -- It does. The issue is not does the atonement of Christ save all men in all times -- It does. The issue is what is the specific content of belief in the OT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry:

Somewhere along the line I may have misunderstood your argument. I agree entirely with what you say here; people everywhere at all times have been saved by grace, through faith in the special revelation that God had given to them in that time. The OT saints were saved through their faith in the promised Redeemer and the NT saints are saved through their faith in the Redeemer Come.

If I have misunderstood or misrepresented you, I apologize.

Galatians 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The OT saints were saved through their faith in the promised Redeemer and the NT saints are saved through their faith in the Redeemer Come.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I am asking for OT scriptural proof for. Where in the OT does it tell the OT Israelite to believe in the coming Messiah for salvation? I just have not seen it. I am not convinced that an OT believer had to have a conscious understanding of the final sacrifice for sin. I simply do not see the OT basis for that. When God said to bring a sacrifice for sin, the believer brought it in faith understanding that the sacrifice would be accepted as a covering for his sin. I do not know that his faith was in Jesus the Messiah. His faith was in God who said that he would accept the sacrifice. BTW, I don't think it is that big of an issue. To me it is more of a technical matter.

[MARANATHA2000]

John 14
6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe that we can all agree that this verse is true. No one will ever go to GOD THE FATHER with out first coming to GOD THE SON. We hope to show here that GOD THE SON, is taught by GOD as a PROMISE to the O.T. saints as stated in Jeremiah 33:14. This promise, of the coming of a personage that was going to take away the sin of the world, build the temple of GOD, set on the throne, and rule the world in rightousness. The O.T. saints knew that this personage was coming. They knew HIM by many different names THE MESSIAH, THE BRANCH, THE ROOT OF JESSE, THE SEED, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. They may not have known the details of the crucifixion, but they knew the punishment for sin was death, and this should have been apparent to them that a sacrifice was needed for the payment for sin. That is what the O.T. scrifices were for, to point to the MESSIAH, BRANCH, and any other of HIS names as to what GOD was preparing for them, the final scrifice, which HE provided for them.

If you read Isaiah 9, It explains many things. It is a promise from GOD, to the O.T. saints. The belief in the personage of this verse is what saved the O.T. saints and the N.T. saints also. The WORD of GOD here is powerful that if the only verse of the O.T. you had possession of was this one, and you put your faith in the personage that is being spoken of, you would be saved.

Isaiah 9
6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Now in time before the O.T. was written the promise God provided was THE SEED of the woman, which teaches virgin birth. It was the Belief in THE SEED that saved them.
Genesis 3
15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here we can see the promise of hope.
Job 14
7
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.

Here one should see the promise of THE BRANCH, that will die, be resurrected, and live forever.


Here are some more referrences to the O.T. personage we know as CHRIST.
Isaiah 11
1
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 60
20
Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21
Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

Jeremiah 23
5
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jeremiah 33
14
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
15
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Zechariah 3
8
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zechariah 6
12
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

It is the belief in the personage spoken of in these verses, that I believe is what saved the O.T. saints. There has only been one true plan for salvation that the LORD GOD has provided man. It is the belief in the true saviour. HE has many names as we can all see from O.T. scripture, but his identity is the same, the promised one from GOD who would come and has come and will come again.

John 6
45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

What the books of the bible are teaching and have always taught, salvation through the promise. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace, THE SEED, THE BRANCH, THE MESSIAH, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, LORD OF LORDS, KING OF KINGS, and any other true scriptural name, that I may have missed. These names are of one personal being, that true faith in any of these names, will be your salvation.

Heed the prophets, let every man be taught, and listen to what you have learned from the FATHER and come into the SON. There are many other scriptures that point to the personage of CHRIST in the O.T. we should all search them out in faith. PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

[Pastor Larry]

Maranatha,

That is a wonderful collection of verses, all of which say what I have said from the beginning -- That Christ was prophesied in the OT as the sole means of salvation.

However, which of those verses is it that tells the OT person to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? You are not yet addressing that question. The issue is what is the specific content of saving faith in the OT?

By the way, you made Job 14:7 stand on its head to make it refer to Christ. That is not a proper use of Scripture.

[Chris Temple]

Maranatha:

You left out one of the most important passages:

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

[MARANATHA2000]

Chris

I could have, but left out some, to entice others to post more verses. I agree with you, that one is the best. Did not want to have a extremely long post either, PLEASE fill free to continue, I would like to read what others have found that show CHRIST as the center of attention in the O.T. I believe you can find referrences to HIS birth, death, and resurrection in the O.T. along with the virgin birth.

Larry

It is only your opinion that I made Job stand on his head. If you can not see the parallel in the scripture im sorry, but do not say it is wrong just because you did not get it, and others did. For every book in the bible points to JESUS. If you do not see a referrence to JESUS in any of the books in the bible, I am afraid you missed it, and highly recommend you read it again. PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

[MARANATHA2000]

Larry

Question: If this verse is true?
John 14
6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If not having a understanding, of what it takes for salvation, would as it appears to me, would mean one to be forever lost. I guess what im asking you is how can the O.T. saints be saved if they did not know they had to go through THE PROMISED ONE to be able to come unto the FATHER? If this is what we are trying to establish, I then ask what did save the O.T. saints? PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

[Pastor Larry]

Maranatha,

I asked a specific question. Which verse indicates the Jesus Christ was the specific object of saving faith in the OT? For instance, the NT is clear in a number of passages. Where is the OT equivalent?

You have quoted a number of passages. I agree with everyone of them. I don't see any mention of faith in this Messiah. It simply states the fact that he is coming. BTW, two significant passages that will add to your list are Isa 53 and Zech 13. I think prophecies of Christ are all through the OT. I just did a major exegetical thesis on Isaiah 7:10-17 on the Virgin Prophecy. That Christ is prophesied is not the issue. The issue is where is Christ made the object of faith?

I can see how from the perspective of the NT looking back you can make your claim. But you must remember that the OT person did not have the NT. That is why I say they were responsible for what they had. Again I ask, from the OT, where is Christ made the object of saving faith?

My personal feeling is that this is not that big of a deal. People in the OT and the NT are saved by grace through faith by the sovereign election of God. The only question deals with teh content of saving faith. All I am asking is that if you make a claim concerning the OT, then do it from the OT not the NT.

As for Job 14:7, read it in context:

Job 14:7 "For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. 8 "Though its roots grow old in the ground And its stump dies in the dry soil, 9 At the scent of water it will flourish And put forth sprigs like a plant. 10 "But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? 11 "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Job is commenting on the end of life. He says that a tree will be cut down but it will regrow -- the water will cause it to flourish. Man, by contrast, dies and that is it. He does not rise; he will not wake or be aroused from his sleep (v. 12). No matter what position you hold on any issue, you cannot just rip a verse from its context because it has a few words that you like, like branch and rise again. It is clearly not talking about Christ. I don't really think that is a matter of my opinion either. Perhaps someone else will comment.

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>how can the O.T. saints be saved if they did not know they had to go through THE PROMISED ONE to be able to come unto the FATHER? If this is what we are trying to establish, I then ask what did save the O.T. saints?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that OT saints were saved by responding to the revelation that they had. For instance, in the most predominant section of the OT, the Law, people came to God in faith with a sacrifice -- there was no other way. You could not roll up to the tabernacle and say, "Well I didn't bring a lamb; I am just trusting in the coming Messiah." They came with faith in God that he would accept that sacrifice as atonement for their sins. As I say, we know looking back that the sacrifices had typical function but there is not much if any indication that the OT saint knew that.I just have not seen any place where the antitype was made the object of faith.

We must also realize that because of the progresssive nature of revelation, the later Israelites knew much more than the earlier ones did and certainly much more than Adam.

[Pastor Larry]

BTW, we can agree to disagree on this. So far as I know there is not OT verse that makes Christ the content of saving faith. No one has found in many years of searching and I doubt anyone here will be the first. We agree that Christ is the only way of eternal life and the Christ is the sacrifice for all sins of all time. We simply disagree on the specific of OT content of saving faith. Fortunately for one of us (probably you smile.gif), we don't live in the OT.

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARANATHA2000:
It is only your opinion that I made Job stand on his head. If you can not see the parallel in the scripture im sorry, but do not say it is wrong just because you did not get it, and others did. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MARANATHA2000:

It's only wrong by dispensational hermeneutics! :D :eek:

Larry:

Have you never read the Puritans?
:rolleyes:

[MARANATHA2000]

Larry

I will not be dogmatic about Job 14. I could have missed this one.
7
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
8
Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
9
Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
10
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11
As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep

I believe that verses 7-9 are referring to CHRIST. I BELIEVE but can not prove!
That verse 7 is revealing CHRIST death, and resurrection to everlast life.
verse 8 even though all the roots of CHRIST ( HIS lineage )have died and are in the ground of the earth.
verse 9 The scent of water (THE HOLY SPIRIT)would bring forth resurrected life to CHRIST.
verse 10-12 is comparing CHRIST ressurection to the desolation of man's desperate despair where he we not rise again.
Just my opinion. I believe the whole book is about JESUS, so I look for HIM in all I read.

Your statement..... "I can see how from the perspective of the NT looking back you can make your claim. But you must remember that the OT person did not have the NT. That is why I say they were responsible for what they had. Again I ask, from the OT, where is Christ made the object of saving faith?"

You are correct here, in fact most of the O.T. saints did not have the WORD as we know it until Moses started writing GEN. (if this is still the accepted belief). So I think I am saying that GOD provided the info nessessary for the fulfillment of John 14:6 to the O.T. saints. Can I prove this, no, It's the conclusion I get from my study. I am sure there may be some that agree, and I know there are some that do not. If there is a verse that says have faith, in one of the names for CHRIST in the O.T. I can't find it either. But I believe that the emphasis GOD place on the sacrificial ceremony was to specifically teach that the MESSIAH IS THE OBJECT of faith, and what HE was going to do to accomplish prophecy. I believe the O.T. saints knew this. PEACE, but not yet .


" THE LORD COMETH "

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Have you never read the Puritans? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I have.

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I believe that verses 7-9 are referring to CHRIST. I BELIEVE but can not prove!
That verse 7 is revealing CHRIST death, and resurrection to everlast life.
verse 8 even though all the roots of CHRIST ( HIS lineage )have died and are in the ground of the earth.
verse 9 The scent of water (THE HOLY SPIRIT)would bring forth resurrected life to CHRIST.
verse 10-12 is comparing CHRIST ressurection to the desolation of man's desperate despair where he we not rise again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to pick on you but this is what I mean when I say going beyond authorial intent. The meaning you have just picked out is not rooted in the text but in presuppositions that you bring to the text. It makes sense but is it what Job was trying to say? I don't think so. Just because Christ was called the branch other places does not mean we can take every occurrence of a similar word and apply it to Christ. The context determines the (single) meaning of the words.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So I think I am saying that GOD provided the info nessessary for the fulfillment of John 14:6 to the O.T. saints. Can I prove this, no, It's the conclusion I get from my study. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My only comment would be to note that you are admittedly going outside of Scripture on this. I think you enter into a dangerous realm once you leave the confines of Scripture. BTW, I do believe that Moses wrote Genesis.

[MARANATHA2000]

Larry

First if you will re-read my last post I said "I am NOT dogmatic about Job 14. I could have missed this one.

I was trying to explain why I believe what I believe. That does not mean I am not open for other interpretations.

We must also address what is meant by authorial intent. For any us , including ME and you, it should be stated as our interpretation of " authorial intent ". The evidence is there from secular historical documentation of early historical writers of the existance of the people the bible speaks about. But we can not physically prove any of the events that the bible says happened. We believe they happened through faith of the HOLY SPIRIT. This is how I believe GOD wanted it to be. But we can not prove any of the events really happened. We are only accepting copies of copies of copies of written versions of events, that were translated from one language to another, and these events happened from 2000 years ago back to 6000 years ago (depending on how old you believe all of creation is). We can't prove absolutly, that the bible is true, we can only BELIEVE that it is.

Now with this belief, comes different opinions. People are going to see scripture from different points of view. We are not all going to agree. We are all going to interpret scripture to our own belief system, and that is as honest of a statement, as you can get, and is very hard to argue against.

The problem I see with some on this board, is that if you do not agree with them, then you are wrong, and you are threading on " dangerous " ground. When the truth be known, is that they can't prove any of the beliefs they have concerning a particular verse. You can qoute commentary after commentary, or reference after reference. The only thing you have done is as I stated above, is to read someone else's interpretation based on their belief system. And none of it can be proven only believed by that person and accepted by others or not accepted by others.

Since we are all interpreting scripture on our belief systems, and accepting this fact, we all should NOT be dogmatic on our interpretations.

Now the good news. Since we (believers in CHRIST) are all really in the same boat. It is a very good thing, that JESUS CHRIST our LORD FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT is doing the driving. PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: MARANATHA2000 ]

[Pastor Larry]

I understand you were not dogmatic on Job 14 and I did not mean to offend you by using it as an example. I was not re-igniting the issue, only using it as a demonstration of what I have been trying to say in the hermeneutical discussion, as an illustration of what I meant by authorial intent.

I don’t think authorial intent is that hard to define and I don’t think it really comes down to interpretation. I think any interpretation must be based on and limited by authorial intent. Authorial intent is what the original author would have wanted his original reader to understand. He chose the words that, in his historical context and contemporary idiom and linguistics, would have best conveyed his intended message in a way that his readers could most easily understand without confusion. I don’t think there is anything deep about that.

With the certainty of Scripture, I am of the opinion that we can be a bit more sure than you seem to assert. I am a presuppositionalist in the mold of Bahnsen and Van Til but I will not be dogmatic that. smile.gif I think Scripture is absolutely certain; it is not relegated to “I believe” status as if there are competing beliefs of equal worth and validity.

Talking about “dangerous ground” I am referring to those things that we assert without benefit of Scripture. You admitted you had no Scripture for you point; it was the result of your conclusion. My point was addressing the bigger issue of those things we assert without Scriptural basis. I believe that once we leave the confines of Scripture, we are treading on dangerous ground in terms of our authority. We can suggest something but must be careful not to dogmatize and stigmatize based on our conclusion. I realize that some of us disagree on some things and that is fine. The final authority is Scripture properly interpreted, which I am sure you agree with.

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

[MARANATHA2000]

Larry

From your last post : "We can suggest something but must be careful not to dogmatize and stigmatize based on our conclusion. I realize that some of us disagree on some things and that is fine. The final authority is Scripture properly interpreted, which I am sure you agree with."

On this I agree with you, and if I might add, we must all realize, that no man is the final authority of the interpretation of scripture. We should all strive, through study and prayer, for GOD'S interpretation of HIS word. PEACE Brother.


" THE LORD COMETH "

[hugo]

pastor Larry,

Thanks for your perseverence on this thread. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I would add that most of the prophecies concerning Christ came relatively late in the OT period--the last 1000 years.

Do you have any thoughts on why folks get confused about the content of the faith of OT saints? Is it misguided zeal? Ignorance of what true faith is and why it saves?

hugo