MMF - Contemporary Music at Church

[r5dots]

How do you all feel about contemporary music at church services? It seems that the local Baptist churches I have visited all have contemporary music and they flash the words up on the big screen in front. Guitars and drums seem to be replacing traditional piano and organ music. I almost feel like it's not very "sacred" anymore. What do you think?[LIST]

[ September 08, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

[Dajuid]

First, I have to ask, what kind of Baptist Church have you gone to? For, although many churches have the name "Baptist" on the front, are they a Baptist by name or by deed?

Besides, there are many types of Baptist Churches, sad to say. You have the Southern Baptists, the Charismatic Baptists, Independent Fundamental Baptists etc. So, keep in mind, when asking this question, you probably should clarify.

I belong to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church and, I guarantee you, you will rarely hear "contemporary" music in my church. The only times you will even hear a drum beat is when a guest singer has a tape that happens to have drums. And then, these are typically authorized by the Pastor.

So, you see, it all depends on the type of Baptist Church you went to.

Dave

[atestring]

In the New Testament "style " of worship (wheither traditional, or contemporary or any other syle) is not addressed.
Style of worship is addressed in the old Testament. The New Testament makes it clear that God is a Spirit and those who worship Him MUST worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

If you want to look at style Go to the Old Testament. Try Psalm 150 .
I will list the Musical instruments in this passage:
Trumpets, Lutes (probably like a guitar), Harps, Timbrel(tamberine), string instruments
( maybe a bluegrass band?), flutes, cymbals and high sounding cymbals(usually found with a set of drums), and in verse 4 we even find dancing.
This may or may not be Baptist but it sure is Bible.

[yankeefan]

I belong to an independant Baptist church and we use a combination of Contemporary Christian Music and Traditional Hymns in our worship services. I personally favor the new contemporary music. smile.gif

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I like the old and the new music. The heart and attitude of the worshiper is what makes the song sacred and holy, not a piano and organ.

Joseph

[SaggyWoman]

I like both old and new too.

If you can't have any kind of Christian music at church, why go??

[Rockfort]

< Guitars and drums seem to be replacing traditional piano and organ music. I almost feel like it's not very "sacred" anymore. What do you think? >

How do you figure piano and organ music is "sacred," and guitars and drums are not? It seems this is another example of the opinion that what is older and more familiar just has to be what's right. People always find ways to defend them... 'dressing up' for church, the KJV, the 10 commandments with less-than-10 required, the 'old hymns.'

It is perhaps worth noting that of the 4 instruments you referred to-- piano, organ, guitar, and drum-- only the drum is mentioned in scripture. The guitar would be closer to the stringed instruments Bible writers would have known than the piano. The organ, of course, they knew nothing of (not qualifying *any* pipe instrument without a keyboard as an 'organ').

[Blade]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
It seems this is another example of the opinion that what is older and more familiar just has to be what's right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have pinpointed the crux of the matter!

I have seen people against CCM attack it because of the instruments it employs. This is the weakest of their arguments. They will often go to the OT list of instruments (a list which, BTW, was for Jewish people in the Temple, not the NT church) and show how drums or electric guitars, etc. are not "scriptural." They neglect to mention that the piano and organ, two instruments upon which they depend, are not among the list either, nor do they really resemble any instrument that is described there.

I agree that not all CCM honors Christ in its appearance, IMO. However, blanket condemnation of CCM because it is "different" than the norm simply is not fair. God didn't end his revelation of music to us with the last page of our Baptist Hymnal...

Sincerely,

[ May 22, 2001: Message edited by: Blade ]

[Dajuid]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by SaggyWoman
If you can't have any kind of Christian music at church, why go?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, seems I'm going to be the bad guy here. But, I simply have to disagree. One does not go to Church to hear the music. One goes to learn about Christ. Once we begin to focus our attention on the music services rather than what is being preached, we take our eyes off of God.

I'm not saying that we should not sing praises to our Lord. Quite the contrary, I'm only saying that if we base our belief that the Church MUST have music (of anykind), then we are missing the point of Church altogether.

First, we have to look at who these "Contemporary Christian" Musicians are? If the music, not just the words, does not bring honor and glory to the name of Jesus, then it is wrong. Just because it has the word "Christian" on the label doesn't make it Christian.

Have you seen some of these "Contemporary Christian" musicians. They are not what I would call Christian. If a non-Christian were to look at them, would they know they were Christians? Does not the Bible say:

And be not conformed to this world...
Romans 12;2

We shouldn't mix the church with the world.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Corinthians 6; 17

Am I saying that all "Contemporary Christian" are bad, I'm just saying they don't belong in Church. I've seen too many of our Christian Youth more impressed by their favorite artist rather than the Lord! This smacks of idolatry! Do you want your children to go to church to hear the music or see their favorite artist, or do you want them to go to church to hear the Gospel.

Whether the music has drums, guitars or a banjo, if the music and lyrics don't bring glory to God, then it does not belong in church.

Let me reiterate, Church is not about music, it is about God. And, if you go to your church because its got the best music, you are missing something.

Dave

[Dr. Bob]

This topic was moved from General Discussion into the appropriate forum. I appreciate the good discussion and hope you will all join in.

[Aaron]

The 1st century Christians certainly did not go for the music. Musical instruments were not employed in Christian worship until the Roman Catholic church began to bring it in as well as other shadows of the law like a priesthood and the burning of incense. (The Eastern Church to this day still does not incorporate musical instruments.)

No matter your opinion, that fact alone suggests that musical expression in Christian worship must not be "free," but closely scrutinized. In fact you will only find musical instruments mentioned in the NT (outside historical narratives and apocalyptic visions) as examples illustrating a point in in St. Paul's exposition on the proper place of glossa in NT worship.

It is my opinion that full instrumental worship extends well beyond the bounds of Scripture.

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The 1st century Christians certainly did not go for the music. Musical instruments were not employed in Christian worship until the Roman Catholic church began to bring it in as well as other shadows of the law like a priesthood and the burning of incense. (The Eastern Church to this day still does not incorporate musical instruments.)
No matter your opinion, that fact alone suggests that musical expression in Christian worship must not be "free," but closely scrutinized. In fact you will only find musical instruments mentioned in the NT (outside historical narratives and apocalyptic visions) as examples illustrating a point in in St. Paul's exposition on the proper place of glossa in NT worship.

It is my opinion that full instrumental worship extends well beyond the bounds of Scripture.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the very argument of the Church of Christ. It assumes that just because something isn't mentioned in scripture, it is "unscriptural". But the fact that it wasn't mentioned shows that it wasn't an issue (like it is today), so we can safely assume that the early Christians continued the Jewish practice of festive music. After the first century, the church was infiltrated by platonic/Gnostic philosophy as various scriptures foretold (epistles of John, etc). So by the late 3rd century, we see it was becoming an issue, and at this point did the church begin to adopt plainchant, then later the Roman church made the music a professionally produced production.

http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html

[Aaron]

Though the Church of Christ uses that incontrovertible fact (as does Charles Spurgeon to emphasize the carnal nature of instrumental worship), my argument is not the very argument of the Church of Christ.

Read what I said again.

My argument is more akin to John Calvin's who said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is a distinction, however, to be observed here, that we may not indiscriminately consider as applicable to ourselves, every thing which was formerly enjoined upon the Jews. I have no doubt that playing upon cymbals, touching the harp and the viol, and all that kind of music, which is so frequently mentioned in the Psalms, was a part of the education; that is to say, the puerile instruction of the law:I speak of the stated service of the temple. For even now, if believers choose to cheer themselves with musical instruments, they should, I think, make it their object not to dissever their cheerfulness from the praises of God. But when they frequent their sacred assemblies, musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting up of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostle is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints only in a known tongue, (1 Corinthians 14:16.) The voice of man, although not understood by the generality, assuredly excels all inanimate instruments of music; and yet we see what St Paul determines concerning speaking in an unknown tongue.3 What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound? Does any one object, that music is very useful for awakening the minds of men and moving their hearts? I own it; but we should always take care that no corruption creep in, which might both defile the pure worship of God and involve men in superstition. Moreover, since the Holy Spirit expressly warns us of this danger by the mouth of Paul, to proceed beyond what we are there warranted by him is not only, I must say, unadvised zeal, but wicked and perverse obstinacy.
--Commentary on Ps 33.2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yet, as I stated in another reply, the Bible is not silent about the character of music employed in Christian worship, we are simply ignorant of the fundamental nature of music itself. Music is communication; music is thought; music is character, all of which the Bible has much to say.

The Scriptures say plainly that God hates a proud look, Pro 6.17, but you see no description in the Scriptures of a proud look. There is nothing about the position of one's eyebrows, his eyelids, how he holds his mouth, tilts his head, or anything else that says here is what a "proud look" looks like; verily, no one thinks of the individual elements at all (though much research has been done on the individual elements of non-verbal communication) when he interprets another's countenance. He just recognizes the look.

It's the same with music. There is a lot of research into the nature and effects of individual elements, but no one needs a music theory lesson to correctly identify the character of a work. So when the Scriptures state plainly that "Evil communications corrupt good manners," it is assuming we have our "senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]

[Barnabas H.]

Enjoyed reading your posts Bro. Aaron! You've got a good grip concerning the place of music ministry in IFB churches. smile.gif

"r5dots," did you know that you just opened a can of worms by asking the question you did? Incidentally, this has been discussed in the former BBc in length, and the posters were evenly divided as they are now. I for one do not like, and actually feel nauseated by the sound of CCM! :eek:

Now I urge you to go to the foxhole because I hear the roar of a thunder, and soon the rocks will be flying all over - "r5dots," duck! :D

[Eric B]

I'm sorry, but this is still alot of conjecture regarding what scripture means regarding music. Here's a principle we should go by: Anything this important to God would be clearly delineated in the New Testament. Since God allowed both rhythm and instruments in the Old Testament, if he suddely changed His mind, or that was simply part of the Law as Clavin claimed, then we would have Jesus Himself or the apostles saying that this is no longer acceptable, just as they did with the "other" works of the Law. We are clearly taught about Christ's birth, death, resurrection and deity, and the nature of slvation and the new birth. We do not have to rely on indirect "principle", or what later church leaders said to extract the teaching.
So if it was not an issue in the New Testament, and then the minute after the canon is closed men begin arising and making an issue out of it, then who do we follow?
Post-apostolic Christianity is noted in history to have been in a state of change leading up to the Roman system, and it simply does not carry the weight of the Canon. There may have been alot of good teaching, and the defense of the faith from heresy, but Clement, the reformers and all the others were still fallible.
By what authority does Calvin claim that instruments are of "the Law"? Nothing in either Testament even hints of that. This is based on centuries of tradition in a church that was influenced by platonic rejection of all pleasure as bad. Just look at how life in the church of that period was (both Catholic and early Protestant). And we wonder why the world burst out in rebellion!
As for the "proud look" argument, I think bodily language is much more clear cut than musical language. The Hebrew words have a range of meanings, including "think best" and "conceit", and this doesn't even have anything to do with a "look", but the reader gets the idea.
Once again, the isue (at least with me) is not that the Bible lays down noprinciples about music, or that "anything goes", but the insistence by various leaders that almost nothing goes (except plain tradional and classical) is nevertheless totally unbiblical.

[Ransom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by r5dots:
How do you all feel about contemporary music at church services<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At some point it was all contemporary, so contemporary music at church services is inescapable (unless you sing nothing at all).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Guitars and drums seem to be replacing traditional piano and organ music. I almost feel like it's not very "sacred" anymore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oddly enough, that is what they originally said at the introduction of organs to churches a couple centuries ago. There is nothing new under the sun.

As for words being projected on-screen via overhead or PowerPoint, that is a thing inconsequential.

[Barnabas H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eric B:
but the insistence by various leaders that almost nothing goes (except plain tradional and classical) is nevertheless totally unbiblical. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> :frown:

Appreciate your opinion but, since I happen to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, may I say that all it is - an opinion. Therefore, let us agree that we disagree! :D

[TomVols]

It's strange that people who rail against so called "contemporary" music prefer a type of music that at one time in history would've been denounced for being "contemporary." Anyone else catch that pecularity? :D :rolleyes: :confused:

[Q. Marlow]

Yes, I actually have!!!

[jeronimo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
It's strange that people who rail against so called "contemporary" music prefer a type of music that at one time in history would've been denounced for being "contemporary." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The key words here are "one time in history." The main reason I am and many others are against CCM is that it is part of the world. I heard Supertones last night, and I could not understand a word I heard. Not to mention it was blasting so loud that many people thought of us as stupid teenagers. We Christians are supposed to be separated from the world, so we should not listen to CCM. People who do so are denying God's Word. They don't obey the Bible when saying "Be not conformed to this world..." When hymns were being considered bad music, it was part of the world. Today it is not, so it isn't bad not to listen to it. When I listen to it, people see that I am not just a normal teenager. They notice something different. For instance, a police officer pulled a teenager over for tail-gating, and no it wasn't me. He heard their music. It was a tape full of hymns. After writing the ticket, the officer asked if they were Christians. They said yes, and had a chance to witness. I bet if these teens were listening to CCM the cop would have thought, "Stupid teens never learn." So all I have to say is that we Christians should not give place to the Devil. I would have to say if you are taken a chance of witnessing away, then you are taking away from God. :D :rolleyes: tongue.gif

[Ransom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeronimo:
The key words here are "one time in history." The main reason I am and many others are against CCM is that it is part of the world. . . . We Christians are supposed to be separated from the world, so we should not listen to CCM.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er . . . the last time I checked, the world didn't listen to CCM. Most of the criticism I have heard from my non-Christian friends is either that the music is too propagandistic (i.e. it's blatantly Christian, and often evangelistic, in its subject matter), or it's inferior.

If the world listened to CCM, it would be as easy to pick up a Supertones album at the local record store as a Tool album. But the truth is that most CCM is marketed by Christians, for Christians, and at Christians. It's not just separated, it's ghettoized.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
People who do so are denying God's Word. They don't obey the Bible when saying "Be not conformed to this world..." When hymns were being considered bad music, it was part of the world. Today it is not, so it isn't bad not to listen to it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So whether or not something is "worldly" has to do with how old it is?

Does this mean that if I should go back to school, I could live the life of a bohemian and a libertine because there aren't any more bohemians, and therefore they're not part of the world any more? Or that I could grow my hair long, wear beads and tie-died shirts, tune in, turn on and drop out because the hippie culture is no longer part of the world?

The thing I don't get is this: no anti-CCM advocates ever have any trouble expressing their views in English, despite the fact that:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>English was invented by pagans.
<LI>The world speaks English. Christians are called out of the world, so we should not use the world's language.
<LI>English has been used to produce works of ungodly philosophy and vile pornography. How can such a filthy language possibly be used of God? We most certainly should never translate the Bible into English; an English Bible is a contradiction, just like a pornographic Bible or a drug-use Bible.
[/list]

[jeronimo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:


Er . . . the last time I checked, the world didn't listen to CCM.
If the world listened to CCM, it would be as easy to pick up a Supertones album at the local record store as a Tool album. But the truth is that most CCM is marketed by Christians, for Christians, and at Christians. It's not just separated, it's ghettoized.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me, but Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell CCM. I have seen it there. Did you know that CCM is placed in the Rock section. It isn't always labeled CCM. Bill Gaither's music is placed under the Christian Artist sections. I haven't been able to figure out why the world would put CCM under a different category than the Christian Artist section.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
So whether or not something is "worldly" has to do with how old it is?

Does this mean that if I should go back to school, I could live the life of a bohemian and a libertine because there aren't any more bohemians, and therefore they're not part of the world any more? Or that I could grow my hair long, wear beads and tie-died shirts, tune in, turn on and drop out because the hippie culture is no longer part of the world?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I knew what a bohemian was, then I would reply. I can reply to the hippie part though. Doesn't the Bible say it is a shame to have long hair??? Yeah, I thought so too. I would have to say that I don't think God would enjoy you becoming a hippie. Even though it is old, people still know that it is worldly. People don't think of hymns as worldy music.

I also want to know what your definition of worldly is. I would really appreciate this.

[Daniel]

Wow! The thoughts expressed here are exactly what I thought they would be! I am a veteran Minister of Music/Christian School Music teacher/private music instructor. I've naturally heard all these arguments many times before (except some of the stuff that RANSOM said...those things might have been a little "off the edge"...) Nevertheless, this is a hotly debated topic on local churches. Of all the posts I read, Aaron is the most cohesive, lucid expositor. Rather than an overdose of opinion this and opinion that, he uses logic and careful exegesis of scripture. You are to be commended, brother. For in the final analysis, only clear-cut scripture exposition will help. NO I'M NOT OING TO DO THAGT AT THIS TIME. I am just introducing myself and opening myself up for questions (and "rockets"). I know I will not satisy everyone. I've long since learned that you cannot please all the people all the time (Lincoln). But let the discussions/questions begin.....

[Daniel]

Wow! The thoughts expressed here are exactly what I thought they would be! I am a veteran Minister of Music/Christian School Music teacher/private music instructor. I've naturally heard all these arguments many times before (except some of the stuff that RANSOM said...those things might have been a little "off the edge"...) Nevertheless, this is a hotly debated topic on local churches. Of all the posts I read, Aaron is the most cohesive, lucid expositor. Rather than an overdose of opinion this and opinion that, he uses logic and careful exegesis of scripture. You are to be commended, brother. For in the final analysis, only clear-cut scripture exposition will help. NO I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT AT THIS TIME. I am just introducing myself and opening myself up for questions (and "rockets"). I know I will not satisy everyone. I've long since learned that you cannot please all the people all the time (Lincoln). But let the discussions/questions begin.....

[preacher]

Daniel:
Since you're in the music ministry I have a question. Would you agree there's a danger in music, any music, cause' of the way it can play on the emotions? I've been in many
different services where the altar would fill up during a "special singing", but the people would sit stone faced during the preaching, if there even was any preaching.
As for ccm, I learned a long time ago, if it
looks like the world, acts like the world,
sounds like the world, then it's usually of the world. And yes then that would include
many other forms of "christian" music.

[Daniel]

Preacher:
You are on the right track with your thoughts, but you need to be very careful of one thing--music's emotional nature. Please recall that music was OFTEN an emotional response to something that had occurred around the singer(s)/musician. Examples: song of Miriam after crossing the Red Sea; various Psalms of David; many others. Music is the EXPRESSION OF THE HEART to God. Where we have to be careful is in the area of which you wrote--decisions. All lasting spiritual decisions must involve the WHOLE of man--mind, will and emotions. Any missing piece will create a vacant decision over time. That's what so many decisions for the Lord don't last. All three parts of man must be present in a spiritual decision. Now, the "hot button" issue you have in your post in the worldliness issue. Yes, we must be SEPARATE from the world (II Cor 6:14-7:1 and John 2:15-17), but we are still IN the world as Jesus mentions to the heavenly Father in John 17. The best approach I have found is to prayerfully pray/pursue the teachings of Romans 14. What you do as a Christian must not cause doubt for you. (Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.) Each Christian as an individual in the priesthood of believers must form his/her core belief and then practice it in faith. There must be absolute peace that he/she can fulfill Colossians 3:17 in the sense of being able to do anything/everything IN JESUS NAME with absolute peace in the heart. Brother, I hope this helps. I have only scratched the surface. I'm sure I will have many other opportunities to help along the way in BB. Keep in touch (as well as you other "posters"..) (:

[Ransom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeronimo:
Excuse me, but Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell CCM. I have seen it there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then, your experience is different from mine. Around here, even in a full-blown record store, apart from those artists with some crossover success, the only Christian music you can buy is either classical oratorio or gospel (i.e. Mahalia Jackson, Montreal Jubilation Choir, etc.). If you want Third Day or Avalon, you go to the Christian bookstore.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Doesn't the Bible say it is a shame to have long hair??? Yeah, I thought so too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, so you admit now that the final standard is the Bible, and not how old something is?

That's good to hear. If you would be so kind as to post the Bible's guidelines for musical style, you can end this debate right here and now!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I also want to know what your definition of worldly is. I would really appreciate this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Worldly" in this sense means, in the character of the corrupt world around us. (cf. Titus 2:12)

[Rockfort]

&lt; When hymns were being considered bad music, it was part of the world. Today it is not, so it isn't bad not to listen to it. &gt;

&lt; ...but Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell CCM. I have seen it there. &gt;

We seem to be getting some interesting (and *new*) theologies on this topic... that a biblical principle is applicable if 'the world' has decided that something is no longer a part of it; and that being *of the world* biblically is gauged by whether Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell it. [Does this mean shopping at Wal/K - Mart is being 'worldly' and must be scrapped?]

&lt; Bill Gaither's music is placed under the Christian Artist sections. &gt;

Now where do we go with this one? The Gaithers' music is not *old*, it is sold in WalK-Mart, it does use varied instruments, as well as acappella, and some of their songs have made their way into the hymn books [e.g., "Victory in Jesus"]alongside "Amazing Grace" and "Rock of Ages." So, do the Gaither songs qualify as "contemporary" music, which so many want to oust from corporate worship (and perhaps to destroy altogether)?

Keep in mind on this discussion that if Christians are not supposed to write songs which reflect the musical styles of their own time and culture, that is saying those 'old hymns' should not have been written. Martin Luther's "A Mighty Fortress" was taken from a popular bar room tune in his country, for example.

[Daniel]

I've watched this WalMart K-Mart music sales controversy throughout the day. It's really a non-issue. Each person must form a Biblical philosophy framework from which to work. K-Mart and WalMart have nothing to do with that philosophy as you well know. Let's get off that argument. It's going no where. Instead let's honestly look at the principle of God's holiness/separation from the world/God's Work being done decently and in order/a distincy sound vs. a confusing sound/etc. If we honestly pursue these topics we'll be going somewhere. Let's try.... ;)

[Ransom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
We seem to be getting some interesting (and *new*) theologies on this topic... that a biblical principle is applicable if 'the world' has decided that something is no longer a part of it; and that being *of the world* biblically is gauged by whether Wal-Mart and K-Mart sell it. [Does this mean shopping at Wal/K - Mart is being 'worldly' and must be scrapped?]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've hit on something that I spied in that post, although I couldn't really put my finger on it until now. How does the location at which something is purchased make it "worldly" or not?

Is food more sanctified if I buy it from a Christian grocer instead of an atheist? More importantly to me personally, does this mean I'll have to stop buying imported foods from Chinese groceries [most likely run by Buddhists or Taoists]? Will I have to stop buying takeout from Chinese and Indian restaurants because it was prepared by pagans?

Wal-Mart also sells the Bible. Is the Bible "worldly" if it is widely available in regular department and bookstores?

Conversely, is pornography sanctified if the local Christian bookstore sells it?

Obviously not. The bottom line is, the world doesn't determine for us what is worldly and what is not. We determine that, by applying Biblical principles to our choices.

[Daniel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:


You've hit on something that I spied in that post, although I couldn't really put my finger on it until now. How does the location at which something is purchased make it "worldly" or not?

Is food more sanctified if I buy it from a Christian grocer instead of an atheist? More importantly to me personally, does this mean I'll have to stop buying imported foods from Chinese groceries [most likely run by Buddhists or Taoists]? Will I have to stop buying takeout from Chinese and Indian restaurants because it was prepared by pagans?

Wal-Mart also sells the Bible. Is the Bible "worldly" if it is widely available in regular department and bookstores?

Conversely, is pornography sanctified if the local Christian bookstore sells it?

Obviously not. The bottom line is, the world doesn't determine for us what is worldly and what is not. We determine that, by applying Biblical principles to our choices.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOUR LAST SENTENCE NAILS IT ON THE HEAD, RANSOM! OH, I hope many read your post and particularly that last sentence!
smile.gif

[preacher]

Jer.6:16-Thus saith the Lord,Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

[Daniel]

Aaron may be gone for the summer, but I will try to keep the discussions going. So, to RANSOM, BLADE, ERIC B and others, please be advised. I will be taking us down a different path. Watch for a NEW TOPIC posted in Music Ministry sometime soon. Please do not divert with scientific studies, psychological jargon, etc. I DON'T GO THERE. You'll see in time. My purpose: to help focus all of us who love music to a practical, Biblical wide-angle approach to music and the music ministry of the local church. Please pray that God will bless and guide the study and discussion we will have in this special place.

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

[Rockfort]

Matthew 15:1-3-- Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Luke 9:49-5--- John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."

[Ransom]

The Preacher said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Jer.6:16-Thus saith the Lord,Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jesus said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse. Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." (Matt. 9:16-17)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[rlvaughn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
Now where do we go with this one? The Gaithers' music is not *old*, it is sold in WalK-Mart, it does use varied instruments, as well as acappella, and some of their songs have made their way into the hymn books [e.g., "Victory in Jesus"]alongside "Amazing Grace" and "Rock of Ages." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of the Gaithers' songs have probably made their way into hymn books, but the standard Victory in Jesus was written by Eugene M. Bartlett.

[Rockfort]

&lt; Some of the Gaithers' songs have probably made their way into hymn books, but the standard Victory in Jesus was written by Eugene M. Bartlett. &gt;

Apparently you're right. I was just trying to think of one offhand. Make that "Because He Lives," and take the rest of the post from there... Should it be used in church or not, because it is 'contemporary?'

[rlvaughn]

To discuss whether a song is appropriate based on it being traditional (old) or contemporary (new) is totally irrelevant. We should be careful also not to confuse the issue of "Contemporary Christian Music" (which might be considered an identifiable style) and whether or not a song is new. (see also my post under "Biblical Principles for Church Music)

[MagicDar]

I have to say...I'm totally impressed with the responses I'm seeing. I really thought all sayings and thoughts would be against CCM but I'm shocked to find out otherwise and also seeing some GREAT points. Music in general pleases God its what the lyrics say that can turn the tide. In a church service its not only the preaching that makes the difference but also the music program that can actually make the sermon. So....YES keep CCM in the service and supply the needs of all ages in your services with both traditional and modern.

[MagicDar]

There is no scripture to back up the idea that music itself is wrong, but where the wrong lies in is the lyrical content. As far as the looks of the musician is concerned, well that is strictly opinionated and not scripturally based on what a christian should "look like". Being separate from the world is actually meaning the way the world treats others in a non loving manner and not how you dress. If it were talking about the way you dress then every single person on earth would be conforming to the world.

Does CCM belong in a church? Why not? It is after all worship. As for kids looking up to the musician instead of God....well that has nothing to do with the music, that is about the kid liking the person who sings and as long as that doesn't interfere with their relationship with God it really has no relivance. Keep in mind, that alot of people hold thier KJV bible up as well as their pastors more than they do God himself so whats the difference?

Dar

[MagicDar]

Responding to a post on Rockfort, yeah Gaither's music maybe in Wal-Mart, but so is Tiffy and New Kids On The Block and we're talking a decade ago of music. New music is usually defined as newer styles of music or newer groups not where it is sold.

Dar

[Rockfort]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MagicDar:
Responding to a post on Rockfort, yeah Gaither's music maybe in Wal-Mart, but so is Tiffy and New Kids On The Block and we're talking a decade ago of music. New music is usually defined as newer styles of music or newer groups not where it is sold.

Dar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't tell for sure whether you agree or disagree with my advocacy of all music based on whether if offers words of praise, not based on age or style. Anyway, it was 'Jeronimo' who began the Wal(K)-Mart angle in this thread, and this person has made no futher posts herein.

[MagicDar]

Rockfort, I just happened to see someone responding to that with your name hooked to it. It wasn't to rip on you, just a comment is all. I personally agree with ccm in the church.

Dar

[MagicDar]

Wow Jeronimo, we really need to be careful how we use the scripture of being separate from the world, because if you use it the way you are using it you would have to literally throw your computer in the trash can as well as your radio or sterio system and your car, because every single person in the world uses the computer and the internet so it is without a doubt worldy.

I have also had wonderful chances to wittness thru ccm. I also think its funny how people relate right and wrong music to being able to "hear the words", I still think that one is really old. Another thing, why would it be wrong if any christian music is available in secular stores? I would think that would be great so that others have access to it that wouldn't noramlly visit a christian book store.

Just a little info for ya as well...there are some hymns that the music was taken from bar rooms such as the song "Amazing Grace", not the amazing grace your thinking of but the song that goes...Amazing grace shall always be my song of praise...that song was actually formated from the song "Oh Danny Boy" in the bar room.

I know from experience that people do not look for signs of christianity in you thru the music you listen to, but thru your actions and your reactions to others.

Dar

[r5dots]

It's r5dots again...Thank you all for posting to my original message. Your opinions are diverse but I have a greater understanding of the issue now! I agree that at one time the "old" music was "new" so I will try to be more open minded! :D

[MagicDar]

r5dots, I'm really impressed with your open mindedness. Its so cool that you can listen to others on this subject and then determine more of your standing on it. Good job!!

:D -dar

[Gina B]

I've been biting my tongue on this issue for way too long.
You can praise God with any instrument! ANY instrument!
Thou shalt not praise me with the guitar.
Thou shalt not praise me with the drums.
Thou shalt praise me only with a piano, a flute, or an harp.
Where is it? Pull out the good book and show me where people didn't praise G-d
through songs and music.
When we have our new earth, do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to run along the banks of the river Jordan and DANCE! (hopefully the crocs won't still be biting) If there's any kind of instrument nearby I will pick it up and play it, and sing praises to G-d. I somehow feel that the true joy we will feel there will not involve a bunch of somberfaced people seated in the great, beautiful new world singing softly (because shouting with joy is so wrong) and to the tune of a wavering organ (oops, maybe that's wrong to) Shall we gather at the River.
Is there a limit? Yes. Should any song of praise to our Father involve profanity, screaming unintelligibly, or sung for self-profit? No.
When I and my children praise G-d, we clap, dance, do whatever our hearts lead us to. There is JOY in the Lord! Joy, joy, joy, happiness, peace, hope, light, tranquility, and our praise can and should reflect that.
Gina

[ervin]

Gina, I am not opposed to using any instrument to praise God; but you are framing your argument incorrectly. It is not necessary to have a "thou shalt not" for something to be wrong. Where does the Bible say "thou shalt not baptize infants" or "thou shalt not do drugs"?
If you believe many ways of praising God are acceptable, why would you ridicule a bunch of somber faced individuals singing softly Shall We Gather at the River? Maybe they find joy in that!
And why do you deliberately type God as G-d? Is there some meaning about that? It kinda bothers me. :(

[Gina B]

You're right, there is a time to be peaceful too. I cannot picture myself at the bottom of a majestic mountain at dusk, when all is calm, clapping and shouting. There's different emotions involved, and they're all ok. to show.
Perhaps I did frame the argument wrong, I was trying to make a point and it obviously didn't work the way I wanted it too. But do you get my point now?
Typing G-d the way I do is what I've always done. I think maybe it's a Jewish thing. It's supposed to show reverance by not using it so lightly, and it gives you a moment to pause and thing about Who you're writing about when you take that extra step. If it bothers you, don't ever, ever, go to www.Jerusalem.com. (http://www.Jerusalem.com.) You may pass out! :eek:
Gina

[MagicDar]

Ok...the point is this. Everyone has a certain taste in music style. The bible says to use instruments and to dance as well and keep in mind david danced before the Lord.

The question is...where is your heart? When you sing, play music, dance or do any type of worship. I like the praise song that says "I'm coming back to a heart of worship when its all about you Jesus, I'm sorry Lord for the thing I have made it when its all about you Jesus.

It is all about Jesus and what he means to us and we are to praise him with our whole heart, mind and spirit and if all that checks in well then I would say your in good shape. ;) -Dar

[Dr. Bob]

Academic Note: Typing the word G-d is very much Jewish. The Talmud does not allow for the name of G-d to be written on something "that will perish" such as paper, chalk board, internet, letters, etc.

And the Jewish "special" name for God YHWH (Yahweh) is NEVER even spoken. It is too sacred a tetragrammaton to be uttered.

Even though it is written out in the Torah, it is always substituted by "Adonai" (a more generic term for Lord) when spoken.

[MagicDar]

I think doing both a traditional worship service and ccm worship service is a great idea because it serves tastes in many people. Perhaps if people are offended by the ccm service maybe there can be two different church services that way both types of congregations can be served.

:D just a thought is all -dar

[John Wells]

Good thread! It seems we have mixed opinions obviously. There are the "live and let live," or more appropriately "worship and let worship" types. Then we have the "my way or the highway" types :eek: !

By the same token that everyone doesn't drive a brown Ford Taurus (what if that was the only car made :mad: ?), not every church is the same. Some think that's OK and some won't sleep until all churches are just like theirs (that's OK, you can sleep when you get to heaven :D ).

Where am I going with this? If you like stoic hymnal music at precisely the same places in the program every Sunday of your life . . . there's a church for you! Go there and be happy. If you like contemporary worship music, interjected a little more randomly in the program, there's a church for you also . . . go and be happy!

NOTE: I don't think anyone advocating contemporary Christian Music (CCM) in the threads herein are suggesting the congregation break out and sing "Jesus Freak!" Contemporary music sung in a worship service setting that comes to my mind is "praise and worship" music of the Hosanna and Integrity Music type. The lyrics are every bit as scriptural as any hymnal song, and the melodies are beautiful. It's my kind of music and I worship where it's sung. I'm not saying the preacher and the sermon aren't important, but praise and worship is important also. The first church we visited when the family moved a couple of years ago was a "three hymns with a sermon sandwiched in between" type service (went 3 times). We just passed through!

[fwbbcflames]

I like both styles of music. At my College we have chapel four days a week and during chapel we have a mix of music. One song may be Shout to the Lord, while the next one may be How Great Thou Art. It makes for a good Worship service. ;)

[MagicDar]

wellsjs, well spoken ;) and may I say that you absolutely crack me up....I laughed by butt off reading your post...you would make a great stand up :D -dar

[Cindy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wellsjs:
[QB]Good thread! It seems we have mixed opinions obviously. There are the "live and let live," or more appropriately "worship and let worship" types. Then we have the "my way or the highway" types :eek: !

By the same token that everyone doesn't drive a brown Ford Taurus (what if that was the only car made :mad: ?), not every church is the same. Some think that's OK and some won't sleep until all churches are just like theirs (that's OK, you can sleep when you get to heaven :D ).

This reminds me of the Newsboys ( :eek: ) song,Strong Love:

"He worships while he grooves, she prays and barely moves,
but they're both reflecting pure devotion.
And some go for broke like headless chicken-folk
(inspiring jokes about poultry-in-motion).
His spirit's in me, his spirit's in you,
so there's a common bond between us.
And the mission for me is a mission for you -
we have a common cause to link us."

BTW, I believe that's the only song that contains the phrase "headless chicken folk."

Elizabeth smile.gif

[BHarris]

Hey, Liz,

Don't forget that song about vegetarians wanting to eat bbq hamster....

Shine!

[Cindy]

Steve Taylor lyrics! Some of the cleverest around! smile.gif

Elizabeth smile.gif

[Barnabas H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
By the same token that everyone doesn't drive a brown Ford Taurus (what if that was the only car made :mad: ?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean "wellsjs?" I drive a 1966 maroon Ford Taurus Wagon with a sunroof and all the amenities inside. My wife as of late asked for a new car, and after looking at our budget we were postponing it. But then on April 26th she was going out to visit the grandchildren in the country and fell asleep behind the wheels. She went through a fence post with barbed wire, punctured the windshield nearly missing her by a couple of inches. The car was totaled but PTL she escaped injury. Her guardian angels were working overtime that day! And since she wanted a new car, well, we purchased this 1966 Ford Taurus wagon. Who ever owned it before left it in a mint condition. So, I hope you are not putting down the Tauruses. ;)

[John Wells]

B.J.,

You said, "So, I hope you are not putting down the Tauruses."

Picked it out of the air. No offense intended. In your case, insert "neon green Yugo!" :D

[Kathy]

Weren't we created to worship God?

DON'T GO POSTAL ON ME! LoL

P.S. My FAV CCM artist is Carman! I especially love his "The Courtroom" YEEEHAWWW :eek:

[DHK]

"He worships while he grooves, she prays and barely moves,
but they're both reflecting pure devotion.
And some go for broke like headless chicken-folk"

"If you like contemporary worship music, interjected a little more randomly in the program, there's a church for you also . . . go and be happy!"

"Weren't we created to worship God?"

There is a church, not even a ten minute drive from here, called Victory Christian Center. It features every Sunday CCM rock bands and even a mosh pit. Let me ask:
1. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ "moshing" to the beat of acid rock?
2. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ worshiping to the beat of heavy metal?
3. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to music of punk rockers?
4. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to any kind of rock music at all?

The object of the Christian life is to be more like Christ, NOT more like the world.
"Weren't we created to worship God?" the question was asked. We were created to be an object of God's love, and in bestowing that love upon us we should be grateful enough to voluntarily offer up our worship and praise to Him.
What is worship? Is CCM worship? What really is worship? Do you know?
"Pure worship expresses adoration and veneration without making petition, and predicates self-renunciation and sacrificial giving to God. Strictly speaking, worship is the occupation of the soul with God Himself and does not include prayer for needs and thanksgiving for blessings.
Worship is represented in the Bible principally by two words: in the OT the Hebrew word 'shaha' (more than 100 times), meaning "bow down," "to prostrate oneself" (Gen.22:5; 42:6; 48:12; Ex.24:1; Jud.7:15; 1Sam.25:41; Job 1:20; Psa.22:27; 86:9, etc.), and in the NT the Greek word 'proskyneo' (used 59 times), meaning "to prostrate oneself," "do obeisance to another" (Mt.2:2,8,11; 4:9; Mk.5:6; 15:19; Lk.4:7,8; Jn.4:20-22, etc.). These two words are consistently rendered in the English versions by the word "worship," which in Old English was spelled "worthship," denoting the worthiness of the one receiving the special honor or devotion. The two terms "worthy" and "worship" may be seen together in the grand description of the 24 elders falling down before the One who sits on the throne (Rev. 4:10,11; 5:8-14)" (see Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia)

Does CCM really declare the worthiness of God, or does it glorify its artist and appeal to the flesh of both the entertainer and his/her audience?
Does CCM "worship" "express adoration and veneration without making petition, and predicates self-renunciation and sacrificial giving to God," or is CCM just out to make "the big bucks?" The Bible says "You shall know them by their fruits."

Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness. (1 Chron. 16:29)
DHK

[MagicDar]

I can honestly say with out hesitation that ccm shows all the characters of worship shown above. As far as holding the singer high, that is the responsibility of the listener to put perspective in its place and make sure the singer is not as important as God is. I find it interesting when people pose questions of "Can you imagine Jesus dancing to Christian rock", if I could't imagine it I wouldn't do it myself. You see something in my heart strikes me to dance before Jesus, so moshing, dancing to acid rock or whatever, the point of the matter is my heart and what its saying to God as I am doing any such thing.-dar

[John Wells]

Dear DHK,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Let me ask:
1. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ "moshing" to the beat of acid rock?
2. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ worshiping to the beat of heavy metal?
3. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to music of punk rockers?
4. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to any kind of rock music at all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could the skeptics of Jesus' day imagine:
1. Him eating with tax collectors?
2. Him healing on the sabbath?
3. He and His disciples gleaning on the sabbath?
4. Him touching lepers? (to heal them)

Food for thought! :confused:

[Kathy]

Some CCM artists have led lost people to Christ at concerts and such! IMO it is not of the world, but in the world...if we want to reach and relate to the lost, they should also be able to relate to us in some way, and if CCM is a witnessing tool, why not utilize it? The ulitimate goal is to bring them to Christ.

BTW, when I first got saved I tuned in to a local CCM radio station that I found ONLY because of a bumper sticker I saw promoting the station while I was sitting in rush hour traffic. I was BORED and TIRED of secular music and it was so wonderful to find music that I could directly relate to and be edified (sp?) by! Praise the Lord for CCM, that is my HUMBLE opinion! ;)

Kathy :D
&lt;&gt;&lt;

[ July 07, 2001: Message edited by: Kathy ]

[DHK]

"Could the skeptics of Jesus' day imagine:
1. Him eating with tax collectors?
2. Him healing on the sabbath?
3. He and His disciples gleaning on the sabbath?
4. Him touching lepers? (to heal them)"

I never said Jesus didn't associate with such people. He just never became "partaker of their evil deeds." He didn't live the average life of a tax collector, cheating and stealing, so that he could gain their respect and eat with them. He didn't become a leper in order to touch a leper. Likewise in our society, one doesn't have to become a drug addict to reach out to the drug addicts; you don't have to become a drunk to reach out to the drunks. And you don't have to use CCM to reach out to young people.

Quote:
" Some CCM artists have led lost people to Christ at concerts and such! IMO it is not of the world, but in the world...if we want to reach and relate to the lost, they should also be able to relate to us in some way, and if CCM is a witnessing tool, why not utilize it? The ulitimate goal is to bring them to Christ."

And some lost people have led others to the Lord Jesus Christ too? Does that make it the preferred method of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not. The ultimate goal is to bring them to Christ. I agree. Please read your Bible. Show me one verse of Scripture where music is used to lead people to the Lord. Jesus never said. "Go ye unto all the world and sing CCM unto all nations." If he did you have a terribly different Bible than I.

Quote:
"I can honestly say with out hesitation that ccm shows all the characters of worship shown above. "
Then, I doubt if your being very honest. Let me repeat a small part of that quote:
"Pure worship expresses adoration and veneration without making petition, and predicates self-renunciation and sacrificial giving to God."
Some of those words may be hard for some to understand, but let me assure you that it is impossible for CCM to ascribe to that definition of worship, particularly concerning self-renunciation and sacrificial giving. Self renunciation--to renounce or deny yourself. That is to deny yourself of all worldly pleasures, in order that you may adore and ascribe praise to God.
I am crucified with Christ, Paul says, nevertheless I live... Gal. 2:20
In 1Cor.15:31 he says, "I die daily."
Jesus said, to "take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow me."
The Christian life is a life of death; death to self. The cross is somethng that people die on. Christ and two criminals died on crosses. Christ expects us to put to death our carnal natures, to deny ourselves, to crucify ourselves; and when I do that I separate myself from the world and its sin and folly.
CCM is simply imitating the world's ways. It is worldly music. It is of no spiritual value despite the message. Even the world questions, "Why do the Christians sing our music?" When the world can't differentiate between its own music and CCM, then something is desperately wrong.

[MagicDar]

DHK, I'm going to ignore the part where you feel you can see my heart and know if I'm being completely honest since you really cannot do that.

As to the characteristics of ccm compared to worshiping characteristics, I most certainly can see each one line up with each other. I would love to know how you personally know that ccm artists adopt the life styles of secular musicians such as sex, drugs and others? Do you live with them?

The bible never specifically says to use music to save the lost, but is says to compel them to come in. The argument is not that the music reaches them, it only draws them to be interested in the message which actually brings them to who Christ is and the salvation message. No, you don't "need" it to bring them to salvation, but it certainly works just like a pastors sermon or anything else you would use.

The attitudes that I have while listening to ccm are the following.

1 humility before God
2 love for God
3 worship and adoration for God
4 self sacrifice and change
5 burden to see lost get saved
6 celebration of Jesus and life in Christ
7 repentant heart of any sin in my life

These are the usual subjects in my mind and my heart while I listen to ccm. This is what filters thru and by the time I'm done listening, I am very uplifted in Jesus.

;) dar

[Kathy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:

And some lost people have led others to the Lord Jesus Christ too? Does that make it the preferred method of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not. The ultimate goal is to bring them to Christ. I agree. Please read your Bible. Show me one verse of Scripture where music is used to lead people to the Lord. Jesus never said. "Go ye unto all the world and sing CCM unto all nations." If he did you have a terribly different Bible than I.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*HEHE* that was good...HOWEVER, by the same token, He didn't say, "Go ye unto all the world and only sing Baptist Hymnals unto all nations" OR "Go ye unto all the world and pass out salvation tracts unto all nations" OR even "Go ye unto all the world and invite people to spagetti socials unto all nations" I could put in a bunch of different things...All I'm saying is that why does it matter HOW we reach the lost, so long as we reach them? I don't think the Great Commission has a Rules & Regulations addendum added to it...unless we have different Bibles?

Kathy redface.gif
&lt;&gt;&lt;

[Kathy]

P.S. What is the preferred method?

:D

[John Wells]

DHK,

Around and around we go! You display narrow-sightedness when you advocate that only music which you are accustomed to and comfortable with is pleasing to God. Actually you play god :eek: ! If you want to be a purist, go back to shofars, cymbals, lyres and the like. You want to have your pianos and organs, but not electric guitars and drums? Find a piano or organ in the Bible!

Music has evolved from day one and will continue to evolve. Eliminate the extremes that are lumped under CCM (screaming, satanic sounds, etc.), which no one is defending here. If you then renounce mainstream CCM, you are simply trying to lock in a period of musical evolution and claiming that as holy, and everything else before and after it as bad. That, my friend, is Archie Bunker style bigotry! :D

[John Wells]

When it comes to many traditions, music being one, there has always been the "old school" and the "new school." The "old school" has always resented the "new school" and visa versa. But time passes and the "old school" becomes "old-old school" and the "new school" becomes "old school." A new "new school" comes along and is resented by the new "old school." The new "new school" likewise resents the new "old school."

I think that pretty well sums up the debate here! :eek: ;) :D

[Kathy]

LoL!
:D redface.gif

[DHK]

Magicdar:
"As to the characteristics of ccm compared to worshiping characteristics, I most certainly can see each one line up with each other. I would love to know how you personally know that ccm artists adopt the life styles of secular musicians such as sex, drugs and others? Do you live with them?"

You haven't quite got the picture yet of what worship is, and its relation to self-renunciation, as we were discussing before. Remeber how the rich young ruler came to Jesus seeking eternal life (Mark 10:17-22). What did Jesus tell him in the end? "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." (Mark 10:21)
The rich young ruler was unwilling to part from his riches. His sin was covetousness which is idolatry.
He was unwilling to renounce those riches, and the worldly pleasures that it brought, for Christ.
If there was true worshippers involved among the CCM artists, they would sell all there music, give to the poor, and follow Jesus. Unfortunately we know that is not the case. Their lives are not filled with self-renunciation, but rather self-glorification, as can be seen in their music. They're goal is to make money, and the best way to make money is to imitate the world, because the world is very good in the money-making business. CCM music is a cheap imitation of the world's music. It always has been. Love not the world. There is no true worship (self-renunciation) found here.

I did not say that CCM artists adopted the life styles of secular musicians in that they used drugs and sex, etc. It is the secular worldly music that they are adopting---and much of that music which they do imitate speaks of sex, drugs, immorality, etc.

Kathy
"Go ye unto all the world and invite people to spagetti socials unto all nations" I could put in a bunch of different things...All I'm saying is that why does it matter HOW we reach the lost, so long as we reach them? I don't think the Great Commission has a Rules & Regulations addendum added to it...unless we have different Bibles?"
Why does it matter how we reach the lost? Because the Word of God tells how we need to reach the lost. Yes it very well does matter.
1Cor.1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cor.2:1,2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Rom.1:16,17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Mark 16:15,16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yes it does matter. If souls are to be saved, it will be through the PREACHING of His Word, not through CCM or spaghetti socials or any other function, but by preaching of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wellsjs
"If you want to be a purist, go back to shofars, cymbals, lyres and the like. You want to have your pianos and organs, but not electric guitars and drums? Find a piano or organ in the Bible!"

I have no problem with almost any musical instrument. As I said in a different post, my son plays the guitar, a nearby elderly pastor owns an electric guitar, but both disdain CCM. It is not the instrument, it is the music. I have been a missionary to Pakistan for many years. There instrument of choice is the drum. There music is different, but not wrong. It is spiritual but not rock, and not CCM. If it has a drum, it obviously has a beat--all music has. Any instrument can be used for the glory of the Lord. Any instrument can also be used for the glory of the flesh. I believe CCM, from my own observations, falls in the latter category.
Gen.4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Wellsjs:
" When it comes to many traditions, music being one, there has always been the "old school" and the "new school." The "old school" has always resented the "new school" and visa versa. But time passes and the "old school" becomes "old-old school" and the "new school" becomes "old school." A new "new school" comes along and is resented by the new "old school." The new "new school" likewise resents the new "old school."
This seems to describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
DHK

[MagicDar]

DHK, first of all ccm artists are not just in it for money, at least not all of them are. Its not like ccm brings in millions, it brings in money but certainly not getting them rich. I met Al Denson, he has a book out for teens that my husband and I were interested in. Al told us if we wanted to, we could take his name and picture off the book and replace it with ours and sell it because we're in this thing together and he's wasn't tring to make money but wanted to change some lives.

You may not see it, or choose to see it, but yes ccm does have the same charateristics of self renounceation. You may disagree with that, but its true. It is very much worship,to a very true extent.-dar

[jdjackson]

I can't help but wonder at what point in history the piano was contemporary. I'll have to wonder about that for a while before I can even begin to think about the organ.

[John Wells]

DHK,

You and I are probably not as far off as it appears. If you consider hard core, acid rock, alternative styles as CCM, I do not. True, it's marketed in with all the rest, but there are many CCM artists who's lyrics are important and significant. Stephen Curtis Chapman, Clay Crosse, Avalon, Rich Mullins, Bryan Duncan, Cindy Morgan, Jaci Velasquez, Jennifer Knapp, Newsboys, Point of Grace, 4Him, Michael W. Smith, Susan Ashton, Jars of Clay, dc Talk, et al are making significant contributions to Christian music culture and are positive influences on young people for Christ and the Kingdom work.

No one says everybody has to like all styles of music. I don't care for country gospel music, but I don't go around bad-mouthing it just because it doesn't suit my tastes.

The above artists' lyrics sing of Jesus, and the beat may be "hip," but it's not satanical by any stretch of the imagination. So what then makes it bad if it and the artists are reaching the lost for Christ? I'm 51 years young and I like the sound! Of course, I'll have to admit (modestly) that before I became a believer I founded rock 'n roll! :D

[Kathy]

redface.gif AMEN redface.gif

[DHK]

Wellsjs,
"You and I are probably not as far off as it appears. If you consider hard core, acid rock, alternative styles as CCM, I do not. True, it's marketed in with all the rest, but there are many CCM artists who's lyrics are important and significant. Stephen Curtis Chapman, Clay Crosse, Avalon, Rich Mullins, Bryan Duncan, Cindy Morgan, Jaci Velasquez, Jennifer Knapp, Newsboys, Point of Grace, 4Him, Michael W. Smith, Susan Ashton, Jars of Clay, dc Talk, et al are making significant contributions to Christian music culture and are positive influences on young people for Christ and the Kingdom work."

I am not acquainted with all the artists that you mention. I sometimes visit the "Christianity Today" Website, where they advertise all kinds of "Christian" music. There are demos to hear, and even chat rooms to talk with the artists. Here is one example of what I am concerned about:

francie727: Have you had one particular experience that affirmed your faith in God?
musicforce_bebo: i'll say this, it was cumulatively one experience
musicforce_bebo: the time that i spent guiding backpacking trips out in colorado
musicforce_bebo: i spent two years guiding at a camp called wilderness ranch, a young life camp
musicforce_bebo: and i don't know that i've ever seen god as clearly as i did those two seasons
musicforce_bebo: i was just talking to a ffriend of mine the other day...
musicforce_bebo: about the fact that god has used the mountains and the outdoors to speak to me more powerfully than any other force in my life
musicforce_bebo: but wilderness ranch in particular had the power of prayer, and lives transformed...
musicforce_bebo: and i saw weather change before my eyes, and lives changed before my eyes...
musicforce_bebo: as amazing experience as i've ever had
musicforce_bebo: actually, no, in fact i've only gotten to see about two episodes of it
musicforce_bebo: i don't get to watch a whole lot of tv, cause i'm always travelling
musicforce_bebo: and the biggest regret i have is not being able to watch survivor, cause everybody says it's so great
musicforce_bebo: tina is actually a small group leader from my brother's church in knoxville, but i think she still goes to church there
musicforce_bebo: i was reading peopel magazine, and there was an article about here, and she mentioned the church in knoxville, and that's where she and here family spend most of their time
musicforce_bebo: it's not on the books at all yet, but the sooner the better as fas as i'm concerned.
musicforce_bebo: it'll actually probably be after my next record
musicforce_bebo: thanks very much for the interest, cause one of my favorite things in the world is playing live shows
musicforce_bebo: there's something very special that happens in that atmosphere.

The style of music is important.
The content of music is important.
The character of the artist is important.

In this case, without even listening to the music, I will assume that it will be very shallow because of the way that he answered this question. In affirming his faith in God, there is nothing that points to salvation, or even the Word of God? Is he even saved?

[War_Eagle]

DHK,

"...Without even listening to the music, I will assume it will be very shallow because of the way he answerd the question."

The question had nothing to do with salvation or the Word of God.

The interviewer asked him a specific question: "Was there one particular experience that affirmed your faith in God" and he answerd the question as it was asked (and very well, I thought).

Why you included the passage about "Survivor", I'm not sure.

In any event, I'm going to go to CT's webite and see if I can find the interview in their archives because his experiences sound an awful lot like mine.

[MagicDar]

DHK, yeah that question given to the artist was kind of vague. It should have been something to the effect of Have you ever given your life to Jesus for him to be your personal Lord and Saviour. As for a faith confirmed experience ...gosh being out in the very nature of God's creation would do the same thing for me too. Just a tip for ya.
;) -dar

[DHK]

Have you had one particular experience that affirmed your faith in God?
That is a pretty specific question. The one experience that affirms my faith in God is either the point at which I got saved, or perhaps some later date in my life where I can point to a definite time where I got an assurance of my salvation. Both come from the Word of God. "An affirmation of one's faith in God" is based on the Bible. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Salvation, or the assurance therof, does not come by; "being out in the very nature of God's creation."

[MagicDar]

DHK, actually being out in nature would affirm faith in God....there is a difference between faith in God and an actual salvation experience. I think perhaps a bit too much is being made of this particular subject...and just curious, who was the artist?-dar

[fwbbcflames]

Here is my take on the subject. I do like contemporary music, I have been a DJ for a contemporary Christian music show. First some songs are ok to be sung in church, they are sung in my consertive church. Songs from Ray Boltz, and Steven Curtis Chapman. (Speechless, listen to the words before you judge) There is a point when the music becomes just like the main stream top 40 music, this is wrong. Church should not look like a rock show, nor should the people act like they are at one. I am not very conseritive on this issue, but church is a place where Christians go to worship God in spirit and truth. Let all things be done decently (properly) and in order. (1 COR. 14:30) ;)

[fwbbcflames]

Sorry the scripture reference is 14:40, my bad. ;)

[MagicDar]

fwb, ok so should we not worship in spirit and in truth outside of church? I mean if that music is ok for outside of the sanctuary to praise God then why not in the sanctuary as well? Also, why is it ok for other artists to have the same sound as other secular music but its not ok for others such as top 40? Just curious about this is all. -dar

[fwbbcflames]

Dar, did not say we should not worship outside of church. Actually the way we worship in church should the way we worship outside of church. If a person only worships in public there are other issues. It all goes back to respect for the sanctuary, there are some things that are just not done there. Men do not wear hats, people dress different. Like I said I am not real consertive on this issue, but to have this kind of music in a service were it is not accepted by everyone in the congregation is wrong. ;)

[War_Eagle]

DHK,

I think the answer that he gave was legit. I believe that the Christian experience is a state of constant growing and learning and I believe the Bible supports this.

Are you saying that one's faith can't grow from observing God's creation?

I would disagree. I believe that the Bible says "the heavens declare the glory of the Lord and I can attest to this myself.

I came to know Christ in very large part because of one night that I spent on the Gulf of Mexico, miles away from the lights of Key West and Havana staring at the stars and being completely overwhelmed by God's amazing glory.

As one man alone on a vast sea, underneath an endless sky, I knew. I just knew that this wasn't an accident.

As I thought about my place and my role among all of these bright, bright stars, I slowly realized that all of these things that I had heard about Jesus must have been true.

Was I saved that night? Honestly, I don't know. Was I saved three weeks later while hiking through the west of Ireland and along the Giant's Causeway? I don't know.

I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I'm saved now and growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord but, in all honesty, I cannot point to one specific moment that I know it happened.

I didn't see anything in the interview that sounded out of line with orthodox Christianity.

I would encourage you to remember that although Jesus is the only source of salvation, the Holy spirit calls us to Him through different means.

[MagicDar]

fwb, I respectfully disagree with you on this. I believe christians have this idea in their heads that church has to be this formal setting and that this is the "respectful"way to worship when all God requires from us is to worship in spirit and in truth. I do believe this music belongs in church as anyplace else. I don't "dress" a certain way or "act" a certain way in church than I would any place else...why should we put on our "best" when God knows who we are already. This doesn't mean we are not to do our talents to the best of our abilities but dressing is not exactly a talent unless of course you are a fashion consultant.-dar

[Kathy]

This horse has been so badly beaten that I am going to call "Horse Protective Services" to come and get it! LoL

[Gina B]

Oh my. How about if we try something different. I know it's a step for us all. So how about if everyone who posted on this topic now re-posts, stating if they've learned something new, have changed their listening habits, or have decided to be even a little more tolerant of others who worship in a different manner? That would be cool.
Since I brought it up, I don't feel as if I have to post anything myself, so bye. Just kidding.
I suppose I now have a slightly better tolerance of those who won't listen to anything but old-fashioned music styles, seeing as they must follow their convictions. I am really struggling with the whole mosh-pit/acid rock thing. I don't think that's something I could ever see as worshipful in any way. It almost makes me want to jump up and sing "Tradition, tradition!" (from fiddler) I can't imagine being lady-like in a mosh pit. Then again, I never even did the falling-backwards thing in high school. Never been one to trust too easily.
Gina

[Kathy]

Hey, I like your idea Gina...I personally am all for contemporary christian music in my own home, car, whatever...as for church, why not? What if we took the EXACT same lyrics that are used in CCM and put them to "hymnal" music...no one would be the wiser because it SOUNDS worshipful. But I understand to a point about the "classics" cuz there are many hymns that I truly LOVE and look forward to being able to sing them when I go to church. So yeah, I'd say I understand the point trying to be made by the other side (if you will).

Kathy :eek:
&lt;&gt;&lt;

[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Kathy ]

[MagicDar]

Gina, yeah good idea, I think this subject has been beaten to death too. I personally feel to each his own on this subject because I believe music is neutral and its the lyrics that make it right or wrong. So anyone can stand where they like and its cool with me :D -dar