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Rev. G
09-30-2002, 03:07 AM
While I think it would be fair to state that not all CCM songs could be classified as "Christian," what about songs in our hymnals / chorus books? Are there songs that we sing during worship that are actually inappropriate? I'd be very interested to hear what you music ministers have to say on the matter.

What is it that makes a song actually "Christian"?

Rev. G

Abiyah
09-30-2002, 03:22 AM
Off the top of my head, "Work for the Night is
Coming" is interesting, since it is an old song
which speaks of working but not directly of the
Lord. Some years ago, it was used in a school
film in the U.S. which promoted Communism and/
or Socialism. The Gaithers' "The King is Coming"
causes some stir, depending upon ones escha-
tology. A popular Bob Carlisle song from the late
'90s, "We Fall Down, We Get Up" caused a ruckus
among Arminians as well as among those who
hate the RCatholic church. Oneness folk, as well
as other believers, dislike "Holy, Holy, Holy."

[ September 30, 2002, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

Rev. G
09-30-2002, 09:55 AM
The Gaithers' "The King is Coming"
causes some stir, depending upon ones escha-
tology. A popular Bob Carlisle song from the late
'90s, "We Fall Down, We Get Up" caused a ruckus
among Arminians as well as among those who
hate the RCatholic church. Oneness folk, as well
as other believers, dislike "Holy, Holy, Holy."
"The King is Coming" may cause a stir depending upon one's eschatological views, but that does not make it "non-Christian." "Holy, Holy, Holy," a song worshiping the Holy Trinity, is devoutly Christian (whereas Oneness folks are not truly Christian as they deny the Holy Trinity). I'm not familiar with Mr. Carlisle's song at all, but I doubt that it is in a hymnal or church chorus book. I'd be interested to read the lyrics, though.

Rev. G

Abiyah
09-30-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Rev. G:
[QUOTE]"The King is Coming" may cause a stir depending upon one's eschatological views, but that does not make it "non-Christian."I am sorry. I thought you were asking what songs
we have heard of with which some believers have
trouble; I did not realize you were asking only
which ones werre "non-Christian."

I'm not familiar with Mr. Carlisle's song at all, but I doubt that it is in a hymnal or church chorus book. I'd be interested to read the lyrics, though.

Rev. GI am not sure that I have the lyrics written out, but
I have the CD. It was very beneficial to me when
it first came out, because I had just realized that
the holiness-Arminianism I had been taught all
my life was a false doctrine.

The song, if I remember it correctly, tells the
story of a man who walks by a monastary every
day. He looks at the high walls of the building
and wonders at the holy people who live behind
them, longing for their perfection. Then one day,
he sees a man from the monastary outside the
walls, and he asks him what life is like in that
holy place. The man answers,
We fall down, we get up;
We fall down, we get up;
We fall down, we get up;
And a saint is just a sinner
Who falls down and gets up.
The man is very disappointed with the answer,
because he had expected so much more from
those inside.

I cannot remember the rest of the story, but
through circumstances, the man comes to
understand that the life of a believer cannot
be perfect, that the fact that they "get up" is, in
itself, a wonderful blessing.

[ September 30, 2002, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

Pete
09-30-2002, 11:42 AM
...songs in our hymnals / chorus books? Are there songs that we sing during worship that are actually inappropriate? I'd be very interested to hear what you music ministers have to say on the matter.

What is it that makes a song actually "Christian"?
I can't think of anything from the hymnal off the top of my head (I'm not biased..honest..), I will have a good look through later.

A lot of choruses of last few years suffer from the "How-to-sing-about-God-without-saying-you-are-singing-about-God-syndrome". One probably most would know is chorus "The greatest thing in all my life is knowing/loving/serving You". Make sure you have the chorus code-book with you when singing it "You = God", because the song doesn't mention Him. Not doctrinally incorrect like some today, just vague like too many today.

Call me fussy, but i think the first criteria of a Christian song should be that it mentions God or Jesus, or has so many unmistakable references to His attributes or actions that it can not be taken as being about anything else. "You" is great for a song about your girlfriend/boyfriend/dog/car/etc, I think a bit better can be come up with for God? smile.gif

hmmm while writing the paragraphs above I sensed someone somewhere typing something about the book of Esther...Esther wasn't a song mate ;) And it fits criteria mentioned above re "unmistakable references to His actions" smile.gif

So anyway, to try and cut this long gory story a bit shorter, I'ld probably pass on The Greatest Thing, and not pass on He Is Lord.

Pete smile.gif

Rev. G
09-30-2002, 01:00 PM
Call me fussy, but i think the first criteria of a Christian song should be that it mentions God or Jesus, or has so many unmistakable references to His attributes or actions that it can not be taken as being about anything else. "You" is great for a song about your girlfriend/boyfriend/dog/car/etc, I think a bit better can be come up with for God? I wouldn't call you "fussy," I'd call you "biblically-minded." I think you are quite correct in your assertion regarding the "you" phenomenon - it is the "God is my girlfriend" music that is far from worship. That's the way I see it, anyway.

Rev. G

Molly
09-30-2002, 04:30 PM
I will agree with you guys on that! :D

Molly
09-30-2002, 04:37 PM
I can think of a few:

The terrible chorus: "I could sing of your love forever"....it could be sung to anyone. Plus,it is just untasteful and repetitious and yuk! :eek:

A ton of contempo songs....Point of Grace has a ton of songs that never mention Christ..."Sing a Song","Your name is on my lips,your love I can't resist",etc.... :rolleyes:

Avalon's "You are my Oxygen" Among others. We have this CD because of the song Glory,which is a good song,but the others are not biblical at all.

The hymn "At the Garden"...and He walks with me and he talks with me"....He does? :eek:

There are many others,these are the only ones that come to mind.

Molly

Music Man
09-30-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Molly:
The hymn "At the Garden"...and He walks with me and he talks with me"....He does? :eek: That song (I assume you mean, "In the Garden") gets picked on so much, because most people do not really know the background of it. It is really an Easter song. The person who wrote it, C. Austin Miles, did so after reading John 20, where Mary discovers the empty tomb and later is outside it crying, when Jesus (whom she thought at first was the gardener) talks with her. So the song is written from the perspective of Mary Magdalene on Easter morning (the first stanza anyway).

Now, Miles did take plenty of "creative liberty" in writing the words, but I think, taken in the context in which it was written, it is not as bad as it is often made out to be. I personally don't care for it so much because I don't think it is necessarily appropriate for worship (it does not address God directly or even indirectly), but that is another topic altogether.

I do agree with your judgment on the other songs, though.

I think if a song could be sung to a girlfriend without having to change the words any, it is not appropriate for worship, to say the least.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris graemlins/wave.gif

Music Man
09-30-2002, 05:10 PM
Hey Rev. G.,

How about "The Star-Spangled Banner"? It's in our hymnal! :D

Really though, we tend to sing some songs in church around Memorial Day and July 4th that aren't Christian ("America the Beautiful", also in our hymnal, as well as other patriotic songs). Is that appropriate?

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris graemlins/wave.gif

[ September 30, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Music Man ]

Rev. G
09-30-2002, 05:32 PM
That song (I assume you mean, "In the Garden") gets picked on so much, because most people do not really know the background of it. It is really an Easter song.
Music Man:

Oh! How you know I hate "In the Garden"! tongue.gif
Why? Well, just a couple of reasons:

"And the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known."

"He speaks, and the sound of His voice is so sweet the birds hush their singing; and the melody that He gave to me within my heart is ringing."

Argh!

How about "The Star-Spangled Banner"? It's in our hymnal! Really though, we tend to sing some songs in church around Memorial Day and July 4th that aren't Christian ("America the Beautiful", also in our hymnal, as well as other patriotic songs). Is that appropriate?
Now you're pickin' on the U. S. of A., and everybody singin' those great ol' songs know that the U. S. of A. is the greatest nation on the face of this earth - God bless America, my home sweet home! (sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm)

No, they are not appropriate (neither is the display of the American flag).

Buckle your seatbelts, we may be close to hitting turbulence.....
tongue.gif
Rev. G

Music Man
09-30-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Rev. G:
Oh! How you know I hate "In the Garden"! tongue.gif
Why? Well, just a couple of reasons:

"And the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known."

"He speaks, and the sound of His voice is so sweet the birds hush their singing; and the melody that He gave to me within my heart is ringing."

Argh!I am well aware of how much you hate that song! :rolleyes: but hey, I didn't say it wasn't cheesy! :D I just think it makes more sense taken in context. ;)

Chris graemlins/thumbs.gif

Rev. G
09-30-2002, 06:24 PM
Cheesey! Quite cheesey! Yes!

Rev. G

Speedpass
09-30-2002, 06:39 PM
Some in the media consider Lee Ann Womack's "I Hope You Dance", to be a secular hymn/prayer

Ransom
10-01-2002, 11:20 AM
At least two hymns found in pretty much every hymnal were actually written by Unitarians:

"The Battle Hymn of the Republic"
"Nearer, My God, to Thee"

Ransom
10-01-2002, 11:22 AM
Abiyah said:

We fall down, we get up;
We fall down, we get up;
We fall down, we get up;
And a saint is just a sinner
Who falls down and gets up.

Of what little of "Butterfly Bob's" music I've heard, this one is handily my favourite.

Don't know whether I'd qualify it as a hymn, though. It's listenin' music. smile.gif

ChristianCynic
10-01-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Titus2_1:
hmmm while writing the paragraphs above I sensed someone somewhere typing something about the book of Esther...Esther wasn't a song mate And it fits criteria mentioned above re "unmistakable references to His actions" I'm not bothering to reread the book of Esther, bud, but I disagree that it shows anything about "unmistakable references to His actions." It is only a series of events which came together whereby evil intent was averted... like any impending crime which is discovered and prevented.

As to the songs people don't like, I gave up long ago thinking a song must be perfect to be acceptable. Obviously people are going to disagree about expressions, metaphors, and whether it addresses God or it refers to him. The Christmas songs are the worst for inserting suppositions which are probably wrong. I just credit those-- like Christmas itself-- as poetic license in trying to express a point which somewhere is worth expressing.

Abiyah
10-01-2002, 05:26 PM
The one song which has most distressed me
is a children's song in which the words are

"The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
The little Lord Jesus, no crying He makes . . ."

I remember back in the fifties being told that
our Lord, as a child, never cried. I wondered
what Scripture they got this from, but as I grew
older, I realized that it likely came from this little
song and the idea that a child was somehow
"'bad"' when one cried. (Remember when
people used to ask, "Oh, is he a good baby?"
when they really meant, "Does he cry much?"
Being a little snot, after I had my babies, if I
was asked that, I would answer, "She's terrible!
A real bad baby!" Ii hated being asked that;
of course, my babies were good!! 8o) !!)

Well, it was poetic license, I am sure, but it
sure shows how one person's poetic license
may be taken as gospel.

Rev. G
10-04-2002, 12:10 AM
I'm not bothering to reread the book of Esther, bud, but I disagree that it shows anything about "unmistakable references to His actions." It is only a series of events which came together whereby evil intent was averted... like any impending crime which is discovered and prevented.
The theme of Esther is obviously, "How LUCKY those Israelites are!"

The one song which has most distressed me is a children's song in which the words are
"The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
The little Lord Jesus, no crying He makes . . ." Our Lord is fully human! What implications! Jesus wailed when He was hungry, etc. How our Lord condescended to save us! Praise His name!

Rev. G

Mike McK
10-04-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Ransom:
Of what little of "Butterfly Bob's" music I've heard, this one is handily my favourite.Ransom, back in the eighties and early nineties, he was the leader of a Christian band called "Allies", which is light years better than his solo stuff.

Their albums are out of print but still relatively easy to find and they're well worth the effort, particularly "Long Way From Paradise" and "The River".

Bob Carlisle and his partner from that band, Randy Thomas, still work together, most notably writing the Dolly Parton hit, "Why'd You Come in Here Lookin' Like That".

Mike

[ October 04, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

JonathanDT
10-04-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Molly:
I can think of a few:

The terrible chorus: "I could sing of your love forever"....it could be sung to anyone. Plus,it is just untasteful and repetitious and yuk! :eek: ...Have you ever really paid attention to the lyrics?
Over the mountains and the sea,
Your river runs with love for me,
and I will open up my heart
and let the Healer set me free.
I'm happy to be in the truth,
and I will daily lift my hands:
for I will always sing of when
Your love came down.

I could sing of Your love forever,
I could sing of Your love forever,
I could sing of Your love forever,
I could sing of Your love forever.

Oh, I feel like dancing -
it's foolishness I know;
but, when the world has seen the light,
they will dance with joy,
like we're dancing now.

I have a hard time believing you would sing that to anyone. Sure the chorus is repetitious, but so are some hymns, if you'd like I can post some lyrics as examples. Besides, do you think that God is in heaven getting bored with us singing our love to him repeatedly???
As for "untasteful", your right, they actually have the nerve to mention dancing. tongue.gif


A ton of contempo songs....Point of Grace has a ton of songs that never mention Christ..."Sing a Song","Your name is on my lips,your love I can't resist",etc.... :rolleyes:

Avalon's "You are my Oxygen" Among others. We have this CD because of the song Glory,which is a good song,but the others are not biblical at all....These are all CCM songs meant for entertainment, edification, and sometimes for evangelism, NOT for use in a church service. I don't hear anyone complaining because Bach and Mozart didn't mention God in their songs. Why? Because their music was meant purely for entertainment, and everyone recognizes that fact(and of course because I don't believe they ever included lyrics, but that's beside the point ;) ).

As for the what makes a song "Christian," I believe it is a combination of factors, including but not limited to: Lyrics, intent of the singer, heart of the singer, focus of the singer. Obviously I put the most emphasis on the singer, IMO if they are worshipping God many songs can be used even if they don't mention any of the Trinity by name.
God Bless,

~JD

[ October 04, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: JonathanDT ]

JonathanDT
10-04-2002, 02:49 PM
Oops, double post.

[ October 04, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: JonathanDT ]

Molly
10-04-2002, 02:58 PM
Yes,JonathanDT,I agree those ccm songs are strictly for entertainment,but when they are labeled christian,they should at least *be* christian in it's text. And,some think it is okay to use some of these types of songs in corporate worship.

Believe me,I have paid very close to the lyrics of that song and many others that are *praise* songs. I do not see Jesus's name mentioned nor anything about God in Word or name in that particular song. It is about the most superficial song related to God I have ever heard or sung.

Thanks for your questions and comments.

Rev. G
10-04-2002, 03:01 PM
I have a hard time believing you would sing that to anyone. Sure the chorus is repetitious, but so are some hymns, if you'd like I can post some lyrics as examples. Please do, as this thread was started with the intent of discussing "non-Christian" hymns (hymns which really shouldn't be in the hymn book).

Rev. G

Ransom
10-04-2002, 03:03 PM
Smoke_Eater said:

Ransom, back in the eighties and early nineties, he was the leader of a Christian band called "Allies", which is light years better than his solo stuff.

I'm somewhat familiar with Allies, since our local Christian fluff station occasionally plays some of their music. I wasn't aware until recently that Carlyle was part of the band, though.

Ransom
10-04-2002, 03:05 PM
Molly said, concerning Delirious' "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever":

I do not see Jesus's name mentioned nor anything about God in Word or name in that particular song.

Who is "the Healer"?
Who is being referred to by the pronouns "you" and "your"?

Molly
10-04-2002, 03:11 PM
healer could be Buddha,Muhammad,whoever you'd like to place in the blank.

You can mean anyone.

It may be understood clearly in your heart when you sing it,but it is not a biblical song,nor does it fit what a spiritual song should be in my opinion.

It all refers to a low view of God and a high view of man.

Music Man
10-04-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by JonathanDT:
and I will open up my heart
and let the Healer set me free. I have never really understood this part of the song. I mean, if I can "let" someone set me free, was I truly in need of freedom to begin with? Just wondering?

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
I don't hear anyone complaining because Bach and Mozart didn't mention God in their songs. Why? Because their music was meant purely for entertainment, and everyone recognizes that fact(and of course because I don't believe they ever included lyrics, but that's beside the point). Actually, for much of his life, Bach was a church musician. Bach wrote quite a bit of the music used in churches today while he was the music director at a couple of churches in Leipzig. So, while in Leipzig, he was writing quite a bit specifically for use in church every Sunday. He was also, evidently, quite a man of God, a true student of the Word.

As far as Mozart goes, he did write some things for use in churches, like Masses, etc. I don't believe though, that he was a believer, I could be wrong. You are probably right about Mozart then. I would say all the music he wrote was really just to make money.

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
As for the what makes a song "Christian," I believe it is a combination of factors, including but not limited to: Lyrics, intent of the singer, heart of the singer, focus of the singer. Obviously I put the most emphasis on the singer, IMO if they are worshipping God many songs can be used even if they don't mention any of the Trinity by name.I am not certain how a song with lyrics that have nothing to do with God, magically becomes "Christian" if a Christian, with a pure heart, and a focus (whatever that is), sings it. Maybe I misunderstood your point?

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris

BTW, on Bach's manuscripts, he frequently wrote "SDG" at the bottom, which stood for Soli Deo Gloria. He did strive to do all to the glory of God alone!

[ October 04, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Music Man ]

Ransom
10-04-2002, 03:54 PM
Molly said:

healer could be Buddha,Muhammad,whoever you'd like to place in the blank.

You can mean anyone.

I don't mean anyone. Martin Smith does. What was his intention when he wrote the song?

Molly
10-04-2002, 04:33 PM
Then he should say what he means and mean what he says.... smile.gif

Ditto what Music Man said!

Ransom
10-04-2002, 05:10 PM
Molly said:

Then he should say what he means and mean what he says....

I'd say he did exactly that.

But God forbid we might have to THINK about what we're singing.

Molly
10-04-2002, 05:15 PM
Hey smile.gif ,we are actually on the same page here! That is exactly what I am saying...there should be more biblical depth,more Truth about Christ,*more* to think about.

If the song is about Christ,let's mention Him.

How about a song about being chosen of God,His holiness,the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,Christ's death,you know...docritnal things in biblcal language using biblical terms,that's what I think we need more of.

Johnv
10-04-2002, 05:18 PM
...what about songs in our hymnals / chorus books? Are there songs that we sing during worship that are actually inappropriate...What is it that makes a song actually "Christian"?[/QB]How's about "Morning Has Broken"?

Not a christian hymn, but certainly inspirational and appropriate. And, I might add, found in many hymnals.

Johnv
10-04-2002, 05:23 PM
How about "The Star-Spangled Banner"? It's in our hymnal!

Actually, if you look at the third or fourth verse, you'll see the line:

And this be out motto - In God is Our Trust!!

I love the star spangled banner. It not inapropriate at all. Unfortunately, one nees a 6 octave range to sing it properly graemlins/laugh.gif

Ransom
10-04-2002, 05:29 PM
Molly said:

If the song is about Christ,let's mention Him.

Smith does. Your complaint is really that he didn't pander to the Dick and Jane audience because he used a metaphor.

As I said, God forbid that we should have to consider the words we are singing, rather than just rattle them off knowing there's a "Jesus" in there somewhere.

docritnal things in biblcal language using biblical terms,that's what I think we need more of.

1. God's love is biblical.
2. Why should Christian songwriting be limited to using Biblical imagery if the songwriter can express biblical thought in original language?

Molly
10-04-2002, 05:57 PM
Biblical language is better than any original language that we can come up with. JMO.

Ransom
10-04-2002, 06:00 PM
Ah, well, since it's just your opinion, we're not bound by it, are we? smile.gif

Helen
10-04-2002, 07:55 PM
Good grief, you two! Should someone come along and say, "Now, children...." :D

Getting back to the thread, which is an interesting one, my husband and I have the opportunity to visit a number of churches during his trips. Sometimes he's the one who gives the sermon. There are some new songs we have heard which bother us both. I don't know their names, but they present very poor doctrine which I think must be confusing to many people who actually listen to what they are singing rather than listening for who is off key or whatever. The songs often have to do with earning heaven or what a man must do, etc. More and more we are seeing a tendency to concentrate on man rather than Christ in a number of churches. It is a very sad thing.

On the flip side of the song/hymn thing, though, are the number of popular songs which idolize the lover to such an extent that we (my husband and I) have no trouble at all changing just one or two words and turning them into hymns of praise or love of Christ!

And one which has ALWAYS reminded me more of Christ than of any living person is "Bridge Over Troubled Water."

I think maybe we have some mixed up people out there? :D

Molly
10-04-2002, 07:58 PM
Ransom,

No,you are not. graemlins/thumbs.gif I was thinking about stating the fact that it is just my opinion. We may not agree and that is okay. My opinion is based on lots of study on this topic and I keep coming back to the Holiness of God and the fear of the Lord....for some reason some of the new songs do not include this. They are more cool for man to sing and hear. I can appreciate a new song,as long as the content is biblical and it points us to the text,not the style. But,like I said before,that is me and what I have learned. It is okay that you see it differently.

[ October 04, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

Molly
10-04-2002, 07:59 PM
But,because of these differences I would probably have to attend a different church than you.

rsr
10-04-2002, 10:20 PM
"Morning Has Broken" was originally a hymn for children.

The words were written by Elanor Farjeon in 1931 and set to "Bunessan" by Annette Covington.

http://www.ccel.org/cceh/0000/000084a.mid
smile.gif

Rev. G
10-04-2002, 11:24 PM
Johnv:

Music Man said "The Star-Spangled Banner" long before you did, just FYI. Interesting that both of you brought up "patriotic" songs, although it seems as though you are okay with them being sung in worship, John.

Rev. G

Rev. G
10-04-2002, 11:26 PM
The songs often have to do with earning heaven or what a man must do, etc. More and more we are seeing a tendency to concentrate on man rather than Christ in a number of churches. It is a very sad thing. Helen:

Would you mind bringing up some examples of the songs you have heard that typify this problem, whether hymns or choruses? It is sad that people are concentrating more on the creation rather than the Creator, but keep in mind that most things being taught / preached in churches these days are anthropocentric rather than theocentric.

Rev. G

Rev. G

Aaron
10-05-2002, 09:02 AM
"The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
The little Lord Jesus, no crying He makes . . ."One thing is for certain, Christ did not cry for the same reasons that fallen, sinful human babies cry. Christ did nothing for Himself. Nothing.

Now, if you drop a BB in a 55 gal. drum every time a fallen human baby cried for selfish reasons (e.g. hungry, uncomfortable, in pain, etc.) and dropped a golf ball in a Mason jar everytime he cried for unselfish reasons, which would fill up first?

Aaron
10-05-2002, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Molly:
Hey smile.gif ,we are actually on the same page here! That is exactly what I am saying...there should be more biblical depth,more Truth about Christ,*more* to think about.

If the song is about Christ,let's mention Him.

How about a song about being chosen of God,His holiness,the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,Christ's death,you know...docritnal things in biblcal language using biblical terms,that's what I think we need more of.Molly,

You are exactly right. The simplicity which the Apostle Paul commends in the preaching of the Gospel should be straightforward.

1 Corinthians 2
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.Now, some lofty souls might scoff at "pandering" to the "Dick and Jane audience," but we are commanded to become as little children, and your thinking is eminently line with the Scriptures on this point. graemlins/thumbs.gif

Pete
10-05-2002, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by ChristianCynic:
(Esther...) It is only a series of events which came together whereby evil intent was averted... like any impending crime which is discovered and prevented. I'll agree to disagree on that one mate, or is that disagree to agree...whatever, I'm just generally disagreeable ;) I think there are enough events that make up that series (and a couple of hints thrown in) to answer the whodunit smile.gif

As to the songs people don't like, I gave up long ago thinking a song must be perfect to be acceptable. Obviously people are going to disagree about expressions, metaphors, and whether it addresses God or it refers to him...To steal a bit from Orwell, all songs are equal, some are more equal than others ;) Few songs are perfect, a lot should be closer to it than where they are though.

Secular bands make millions recording love songs about "you". The songs sell big because they rarely mention any names or distinct characteristics of the subject. Sing it to your girl-friend, if you break up with her then sing the same one to your next one. I can't think of any good reason for the Church to follow the trend.

Disclaimer: Of course by this little rant I don't mean that every song should have expositions of at least three doctrines before it should be considered...But I'ld rather have a few expressions, metaphors in there to think about, than volcanos of virulent vagueness that a lot of songs are these days...

volcanos of virulent vagueness?? That's it, must be bed time here ;)

Pete smile.gif

Rev. G
10-05-2002, 04:56 PM
Charles Wesley seemed able to mix metaphors without being vague, eh?

Why is it that we don't have (somebody correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not a 'music guy') some contemporary hymn writers in the vein of Wesley or Isaac Watts? Just curious.

Rev. G

rsr
10-05-2002, 05:08 PM
It's a culture thing.

Who takes hymns seriously? In Charles' day, music was a rarified atmosphere; today, it's everywhere (and mostly for the worse.)

OTOH, there is probably a good deal of spiritual music that we're not aware of because there is so much of it. There were plenty of bad hymns written in Charles' day, but they haven't survived.

Pete
10-06-2002, 09:01 AM
Rev G,

While still falling short Watts or Wesley standards, some writers today can put out a reasonably solid song now and then, trouble is the rest of the time they still churn out streams of "This is our new worship song, it is fifteen minutes long, it's theology is not too strong, "You" are better than King Kong..." type of things to fill empty space on CDs and/or get their name out there.

Pete

JonathanDT
10-06-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Rev. G:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I have a hard time believing you would sing that to anyone. Sure the chorus is repetitious, but so are some hymns, if you'd like I can post some lyrics as examples. Please do, as this thread was started with the intent of discussing "non-Christian" hymns (hymns which really shouldn't be in the hymn book).

Rev. G</font>[/QUOTE]Wow, so much to respond to. Here goes. I think I spoke a little rashly, it's way too much to type!!! I don't know of any sites that have hymn lyrics from which I could copy and paste, so break out a hymn book and look this stuff up. The song O How I Love Jesus repeats the phrase "O how I love Jesus" 12 times. Nothing but the Blood repeats the phrase "Nothing but the blood of Jesus" 12 times. The song Glory to His Name repeats the phrase "Glory to His Name" 16 times. And of course Standing On the Promises which repeats the phrase "Standing on the promises of God" 20 times. And this from just browsing through the hymnal for a minute.

Originally posted by Music Man:
I have never really understood this part of the song. I mean, if I can "let" someone set me free, was I truly in need of freedom to begin with? Just wondering?Sure, aren't humans in bondage to sin? Don't we have the choice to let Christ forgive that sin and free us?

Originally posted by Music Man:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonathanDT:
As for the what makes a song "Christian," I believe it is a combination of factors, including but not limited to: Lyrics, intent of the singer, heart of the singer, focus of the singer. Obviously I put the most emphasis on the singer, IMO if they are worshipping God many songs can be used even if they don't mention any of the Trinity by name.I am not certain how a song with lyrics that have nothing to do with God, magically becomes "Christian" if a Christian, with a pure heart, and a focus (whatever that is), sings it. Maybe I misunderstood your point?</font>[/QUOTE]What I meant by "mention the Trinity by name" is to actually use a proper name ie Jesus, God, Jehovah, etcetera, rather then using metaphorical terms, such as in I Could Sing of Your Love Forever with your and healer. By focus I mean totally focused on God's awesome wonder.

Originally posted by Molly:
Hey smile.gif ,we are actually on the same page here! That is exactly what I am saying...there should be more biblical depth,more Truth about Christ,*more* to think about.

If the song is about Christ,let's mention Him.

How about a song about being chosen of God,His holiness,the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,Christ's death,you know...docritnal things in biblcal language using biblical terms,that's what I think we need more of.You mean lets mention him in a way that you can instantly recognize without having to think about or understand any of the other lyrics in the song. smile.gif Because I Could Sing of Your Love Forever DOES mention him, you just have to pay attention to the words.
Many songs are about God's holiness, Lord I lift your name on High talks about Christ's death and resurection to pay for our sings, I can't think of any praise songs of the top of my head about being chosen of God or fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, but my praise song repertoire is rather limited since we rarely use them in my church.

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
The little Lord Jesus, no crying He makes . . ."One thing is for certain, Christ did not cry for the same reasons that fallen, sinful human babies cry. Christ did nothing for Himself. Nothing.</font>[/QUOTE]Be careful Aaron, your making assumptions that the Bible doesn't support. Didn't Jesus ask God to "take this cup from me?" Didn't he ask for a drink on the cross? Are you saying that Jesus never asked for more food when he was a kid, or maybe for some assistance with a chore? Some very large assumptions.

As for using "simple language," doesn't God himself use some rather spectacular language in Job? I can't think of very many people who would consider the book of Revelation simple. Be careful about taking verses out of context.

Music Man
10-06-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Rev. G:
Why is it that we don't have (somebody correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not a 'music guy') some contemporary hymn writers in the vein of Wesley or Isaac Watts? Just curious.Good question! I think our lack of good modern hymns in our churches is at least partly due to the revival movement of the 19th century. If you notice, most of the gospel song texts we sing today were written by musicians. Usually the same person who wrote the music also wrote the text (I do know there are exceptions). The songs being sung were no longer being written by the pastor/theologians but by musicians, who are not necessarily theologians.

Another thing is that a lot of the writers of gospel songs would tell you that they never intended for the gospel songs to be sung in worship services. They were written for a specific purpose, for evangelistic/revival meetings, not worship. But what happened is that people liked the songs they sang in revivals so much, that they wanted them to be sung in their churches on Sunday morning. (That is, btw, also how we got our present worship order in most Baptist churches, straight out of the revival movement.) There is a lot of repition in the gospel songs because they were purposely designed that way. The song writer knew the people at the meetings would not remember the stanzas, so they included these catchy refrains that were sung with each stanza, which would be a summary of the stanzas, so they would leave the meetings singing the refrain.

What bringing these songs into the church has done is to slowly change the focus of worship services from worshiping God, to evangelizing the lost. Worship has become a means to an end (the end being evangelism) rather than worship being an end in and of itself. This, coupled with the slow, improvement of the state of mankind in our theology, and you have more man-centered hymns, etc, which certainly does not typify the hymns of Wesley, Watts, Newton, etc.

Now, having said all of that, in the last half of the 20th century, there was a bit of a return to hymnody somewhat in the vain of Watts, Wesley, etc. (which has been called "The Golden Age of English Hymnody"). This new age of English Hymnody has been called "The New English Renaissance" with the hymns of Fred Pratt Green, Brian Wren, Timothy Dudley-Smith, Erik Routley, Fred Kaan, etc.

The thing I have not mentioned is with the contemporary praise chorses, etc. Many of them are man-centric and shallow, but there are some that are quite good. We just need to be discerning when picking what we sing. Don't sing it just because it is the popular chorus at the time, but sing it because it focuses on God, points us to God, praises God, glorifies God, more than it talks about how God makes me feel. There are some out there, you just have to hunt them down.

Rev. G., I'm sure that is more than you really wanted to know, sorry! I hope it has been helpful.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris graemlins/type.gif

Music Man
10-06-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by JonathanDT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Music Man:
I have never really understood this part of the song. I mean, if I can "let" someone set me free, was I truly in need of freedom to begin with? Just wondering?Sure, aren't humans in bondage to sin? Don't we have the choice to let Christ forgive that sin and free us?</font>[/QUOTE]I don't think you really answered my question, but I also don't think this is really the forum for the discussion which could result from continuing. I'll save that for the guys in the Calvinism/Arminianism forum. :D

SDG,
Chris graemlins/wave.gif

rsr
10-06-2002, 11:46 PM
Charles Wesley didn't write his music, and neither did Newton. It is a blessing that their words found the right music.
smile.gif

Aaron
10-07-2002, 06:30 AM
JonathanDT said:
Be careful Aaron, your making assumptions that the Bible doesn't support. Didn't Jesus ask God to "take this cup from me?" Didn't he ask for a drink on the cross? Mine are not assumptions, but eminently Scriptural assertions of the character of Jesus Christ. Once you understand the nature and origin of sin, and know that Christ, even before He was born, could not be a partaker of that nature, then it follows that He could and would do nothing for His own self.

He says as much when He said, "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me," John 5:30.

One nanosecond of selfishness would have rendered Him a sinner and would have doomed us all.

Jesus was a "man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." The "loud crying and tears" (Heb. 5:7) He offered up were always for our griefs and our sorrows. Never, never, never His own. Not even as an infant.

It is a grievous error to assume that Christ's prayer that the cup pass from Him was by any means a desire to do anything other than His Father's will. He certainly did not face the agony of the cross as an infant and His crying thereon cannot be compared to the crying of a baby.

Christ's thirst is thusly expounded by the great Matthew Henry... But the reason of his complaining of it is somewhat surprising; it is the only word he spoke that looked like complaint of his outward sufferings. When they scourged him, and crowned him with thorns, he did not cry, O my head! or, My back! But now he cried, I thirst. For, [1.] He would thus express the travail of his soul, Isa. 53:11. He thirsted after the glorifying of God, and the accomplishment of the work of our redemption, and the happy issue of his undertaking. [2.] He would thus take care to see the scripture fulfilled. Hitherto, all had been accomplished, and he knew it, for this was the thing he had carefully observed all along; and now he called to mind one thing more, which this was the proper season for the performance of. By this it appears that he was the Messiah, in that not only the scripture was punctually fulfilled in him, but it was strictly eyed by him. By this it appears that God was with him of a truth —that in all he did he went exactly according to the word of God, taking care not to destroy, but to fulfil, the law and the prophets....and this way by John Calvin: Those who contrive a metaphorical meaning for the word thirst, as if he meant that, instead of a pleasant and agreeable beverage, they gave
him bitterness, as if they intended to flay his throat, are more desirous to be thought ingenious than to promote true edification; and, indeed, they are expressly refuted by the Evangelist, who says that Christ asked for vinegar when he was near death; from which it is evident that he did not desire any luxuries.In other words, Christ was not asking that His thirst be abated with water. He was asking for the vinegar to fulfill the Scriptures.

JonathanDT said:
Are you saying that Jesus never asked for more food when he was a kid, or maybe for some assistance with a chore? Now who is making assumptions that the Bible doesn't support? Is there some narrative that I missed? The only words recorded that He uttered as a child is "Wist thou not that I must be about my Father's business?"

It is you who needs to be careful--careful not to transfer our sinful tendencies to Christ's sinless humanity.

The cattle are lowing the Baby awakes,
But little Lord Jesus no crying He makes.

That verse is weighty with doctrinal truth.

JonathanDT said:
As for using "simple language," doesn't God himself use some rather spectacular language in Job? I can't think of very many people who would consider the book of Revelation simple. Be careful about taking verses out of context.God can do it, and did do it. "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter," Proverbs 25:2. We are not God.

We are clearly commanded to be straightforward and simple in our presentations of the Gospel in the worship of Christ. We work for the edification of all. We condescend to those of low estate. We don't scoff at them thinking ourselves more lofty and better than they.

Molly
10-07-2002, 09:29 AM
One of the things I have learned is that in years past,men were much more versed in scripture,they knew what God's Word said,they studied it,were diligent to learn it and know the rich doctrines of Christ,that is why so many hymns have the depth most of us are desiring for in our corporate worship. They wrote about things they knew about. Nowadays,we have been dumbed down,through a lack of real biblical preaching,we have accepted man made religion and gospel and make God what we want Him to be instead of basing our views on ones that are biblical. People write in a way that is shallow,because we are shallow in our spiritual walk. Our music and songs reperesent the truth of that. Liten to old sermons,many do not give bible references when preaching,it is because the people knew where things were found. The preaching was more profound,more in depth,the richness of Christ was displayed through Godly men,who knew of God and preached Him in and out of season. the worship/music time matched that depth.

Now,we are taught we have to bring things down to reach the lost. Untrue!

[ October 07, 2002, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Molly ]

JonathanDT
10-07-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Aaron:
Mine are not assumptions, but eminently Scriptural assertions of the character of Jesus Christ. Once you understand the nature and origin of sin, and know that Christ, even before He was born, could not be a partaker of that nature, then it follows that He could and would do nothing for His own self.

He says as much when He said, "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me," John 5:30.

One nanosecond of selfishness would have rendered Him a sinner and would have doomed us all....selfish

\Self"ish\, a. 1. Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others.

Christ was obviously never selfish, however did he really NEVER want ANYTHING? Jesus was both fully man and fully God, and as such he underwent the same temptations, and probably the same desires as us.
Mark 11
v12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

Obvsiously Jesus had the desire for food. Was this selfish? Of course not!!! The desire for something, or even asking for something IS NOT selfish, it is when we do it with disregard or at the expense of someone else that it becomes selfish. You will not find ANYWHERE in the scripture to support your claim that Jesus NEVER did ANYTHING for himself. Did he not feed himself?
Originally posted by Aaron:
The cattle are lowing the Baby awakes,
But little Lord Jesus no crying He makes.

That verse is weighty with doctrinal truth.Be very careful not to elevate a hymn to the level of God's word.
Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />JonathanDT said:
As for using "simple language," doesn't God himself use some rather spectacular language in Job? I can't think of very many people who would consider the book of Revelation simple. Be careful about taking verses out of context.God can do it, and did do it. "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter," Proverbs 25:2. We are not God.

We are clearly commanded to be straightforward and simple in our presentations of the Gospel in the worship of Christ. We work for the edification of all. We condescend to those of low estate. We don't scoff at them thinking ourselves more lofty and better than they.</font>[/QUOTE]Hmmmm. Ok, so Paul said that he had been plain when talking to the Corinthians. Now, where was the commandment that your talking about? Because Paul mentions that with one single church he spoke plainly? So we should worship plainly? Big jump.

Molly, I agree that we don't know the faith as we should. The Supertones sing two songs with great relevance about just this(these are just short parts of the songs), Escape from Reason:
Down Down Down
That's the way we're traveling
Our social fabric unravels
But who pulled the string
Philosophers politicians or the school teachers
Game of life and death and we're sitting on the bleachers
What happened to our voice
What happened to our influence
Tell me who will listen when all we have to say is
Bumper sticker doctrine and cute catch phrases
Does this amaze us that no one will take us seriously
We talk big but then we sit in atrophy
Apathy they make comedy of our hypocrisy
Unaware of true biblical philosophy
So we gotta watch what we do and what they see
Cause we represent Christ plus Christianity

Return of the Revolution:
See wisdom and knowledge is one thing that we lack
You've been a Christian how long and you're still on Similac
So I call on Martin Luther and all the reformation back
Then the common people couldn't read God's revelation
You had to be a monk or a priest or read Latin
That was all before the revolution happened
But the fire cooled down ever since that generation
We put down the Bible and pick up the play station
And we can't defend our faith 'cause we don't even know it
We say we love His word but pick a funny way to show it.
The world walks by and we don't have a thing to say
I call 'em as I see 'em
And that's what I see today

One of the reasons I love the Supertones is because they are NOT dumbed down, not lying back, not afraid to offend or challenge.

Unfortuantly, too many blame the apostasy on the praise and worship, which is wrong! The problem is the people, they don't realize that Christianity is a 24/7 thing, they don't realize just how great and amazing our God is, they don't realize the urgency of the Gospel. And the hymns and choruses have nothing to do with it. In my church we have always sung the hymns, and it was the same way. We just now started incorporating some praise songs, and while it's too early to know the impact, I have my doubts that the older generation will change. :( The younger generations....hopefully the Spirit will use something to light a fire, and if it be the impact of the hymns or the praise choruses, or the gospel message spoken repeatedly from the pulpit and youth group and sunday school, so be it.

Molly
10-07-2002, 03:05 PM
No,I don't blame it on the praise and worship-contemp movement....those things are a result of where we are today spiritually. The praise choruses did not cause it,the lack of God's word did...now,we have to deal with shallow preaching AND shallow music. graemlins/sleep.gif

And,I say this because I feel this is happening everywhere. But,I must add,there are still some godly men preaching the Word out there and there are some churches who are serious about God's word,it is just harder to find them. :(

Those who are serious about God's word will be serious about the other issues of the church as well. As far as the Supertones go...Can't say I disagree with their message,I don't totally agree either,but they need to be proclaiming Christ more in their text,style,etc. I still see their words as man centered. JMO! graemlins/type.gif

Aaron
10-07-2002, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Obvsiously Jesus had the desire for food. Was this selfish? Of course not!!! The desire for something, or even asking for something IS NOT selfish, it is when we do it with disregard or at the expense of someone else that it becomes selfish. You will not find ANYWHERE in the scripture to support your claim that Jesus NEVER did ANYTHING for himself. Did he not feed himself?Normally, I would let this go, but the character of Christ is at stake here.

Don't take this as an attack. I am not attacking you. I will merely state the facts. Clearly you are not using the Scriptures to discern His character. You are merely transfering your own thoughts and feelings (all polluted with sin) and calling them the mind of Christ.

All the examples you have proffered indeed show Christ as being touched with the feeling of our infirmities, however His feeling of them was "without sin," and you and I have never trodden there.

You and I cannot begin to comprehend a perfect character.

And so Christ hungered. He never acted for the purpose of satisfying His hunger. He acted always with an eye on the glory of God. And so the Apostle who exhorts us to let the "mind of Christ" also dwell in us exhorts us that Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God, 1 Corinthians 10:31.

And when the glory of God was at stake, though He had gone without eating anything for over a month and could feel the hunger pangs, Christ refused to provide bread for the satisfaction of His hunger, Luke 4:1-4.

So the answer to your question is, "No." He did not feed himself with food. He glorified God with his eating. He fed Himself with the will of God. My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work, John 4:34.

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Hmmmm. Ok, so Paul said that he had been plain when talking to the Corinthians. Now, where was the commandment that your talking about? Because Paul mentions that with one single church he spoke plainly? So we should worship plainly? Big jump.No, not a jump at all. Paul holds his manner of ministry has an example for the Ephesian elders to follow saying, "I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak," Acts 20:35.

A clear command, and a pattern not mentioned in passing to "one single church." Paul's pattern is the pastoral pattern. Straightforward with simplicity. To deviate from it is to deviate from God's will--no matter how warm and fuzzy the feelings may be, and no matter how appealing our "deep" similies and metaphors might appear to our lofty apetites.

[ October 07, 2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

JonathanDT
10-09-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Molly:
Those who are serious about God's word will be serious about the other issues of the church as well. As far as the Supertones go...Can't say I disagree with their message,I don't totally agree either,but they need to be proclaiming Christ more in their text,style,etc. I still see their words as man centered. JMO! graemlins/type.gif Aren't you being a little quick to judge the Supertones? You just read parts of the lyrics of 2 songs, not exactly a large sample size. I'm not really sure how you can think that they need to proclaim Christ more in their style, one style is in no way superior to another, just different. Have you ever heard them? I think if more preachers were as direct and up front with the truth as the Supertones we would see a much different church.

Aaron, this will be my last reply on the subject because I don't want to go too far OT. I believe that everything Christ did was for the glory of God. Paul says to eat and to do ALL things to the glory of God, so couldn't asking for food to eat also be done to the glory of God? If so, why couldn't the baby Jesus ask for food to the glory of God via the only method that babies can use, to cry? To suggest that he couldn't is NOT supported by the Bible.

As for the Paul command, it appears that you are distorting the scriptures to try to support your point, so I'm not even going to argue.

God Bless,

~JD

Rev. G
10-10-2002, 12:06 AM
At least two hymns found in pretty much every hymnal were actually written by Unitarians:

"The Battle Hymn of the Republic"
"Nearer, My God, to Thee" This is an excellent example of listing "non-Christian" hymns that are in the hymnal.

Rev. G

Mike McK
10-10-2002, 12:32 AM
Molly,

I'm not a huge fan of the Supertines, either btu I have a lot of respect for them.

Isn't it possible that the reason you and I don't get it is because we're not the ones they (or God, depending on how you view CCM) are trying to reach?

Mike

donnA
10-28-2002, 11:48 PM
A ton of contempo songs....Point of Grace has a ton of songs that never mention Christ..." Neither do a lot of hymns, like Amazing Grace, and since God hasn't promised good to us, it just might be one of those hymsn that appear christian but becasue it doesn't mention Jesus, it isn't. How many are we going to have to throw out of the hymn book becasue Jesus' name isn't in the song. So you can see how this reasoning doesn'tm ake logical sence, it is nothing more then a twisting to support your own view no matter what it costs.

Molly
10-29-2002, 12:00 AM
Awwww,come on....Amazing Grace is about the doctrine of salvation.

I'm talking about songs like "Sing a song"...."your name is on my lips,your love I can't resist" There are a few that could be about anybody or anything.

Amazing grace is clearly about biblcal things.

I'm not twisting anything,and I agree there are some hymns that are not biblical,that's why we need men leading our music who have great biblical insight and discernment.

donnA
10-29-2002, 12:09 AM
Then why are hymsn different from any other christian song? Different criteria for hymns then other christian music?

Molly
10-29-2002, 12:11 AM
There are not 2 different criteria....biblical is all I seek. Biblical in words,meaning message,and style that reflects the holiness of God,that is all I ask! Men who will discern this is what we need more of in the church today!

TaterTot
10-29-2002, 01:01 AM
WEll, what about patriotic songs? Most of them are in praise of our country, not our God. Ex, America, America, God shed His grace on thee...My country'tis of thee...of thee I sing.
And in our little red hymnal at church (stamps-baxter) we have LOTS of songs that aredoctrinally bad. So many songs talk about getting on that ol' ship and going to see mama, cause she's calling me to come home for supper - that kind of stuff. Burns me up. :mad:

Dr. Bob
10-29-2002, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by katie:
Then why are hymsn different from any other christian song? Different criteria for hymns then other christian music?Three classes -
psalmos = psalms, scriptures set to music
humnos = hymns, songs of praise and glorification of who God is and what He has done
pneumatikos oides = songs that are spiritual, speaking of our relationship with God and man

MOST of our hymnal ARE NOT "hymns"! There are usually a few scripture songs, about 100 hymns (if you're lucky) and then 400-500 songs.

Almost ALL CCM (contemporary) are weakened versions of scripture or non-threatening feel-good songs (not even sure how "spiritual"). Trying to think of ANY "hymn"

Aaron
10-29-2002, 02:15 AM
I agree with Dr. Bob. I would merely amplify his classifications.

A Psalm is a poetical work composed primarily for the psaltery or harp. The word Psalm is descriptive more of style than content. When Paul says to interact with one another with "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs," the content of the psalms is understood.

The word hymn is also more descriptive of a style. Plato speaks of the act of mixing "lamentations with hymns, and paeans with dithyrambs" as a kind of corruption. A dithyramb was Greek party music... ...sung by banqueters under the leadership of a man "wit-stricken by the thunderbolt of wine" (Archilochus).

Encyclopedia BrittanicaIt was a style well established by 450 B.C. and still known by the time of Paul as a wild, drunken style. In contrast to being drunk with wine, he said. Be sober, speaking in psalms, hymns and other more spiritual, temperate styles.

A spirit-filled man does not rage or weep or get sentimental like a drunkard.

So, no. One cannot call CCM "hymns." It is not even "Christian" in character.

Mike McK
11-21-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Aaron:
It is not even "Christian" in character.Oh, Breath of God
Come in and dwell
Come make my aching heart your home
And use me well

For You've created me
And named me as your own
To know the wonder of Your love
And make it known

Oh, Breath of God
Teach me Your ways
That I might serve You
In these precious, fleeting days

Now I'm sure of this
If I've learned nothing else
Until I live for You
I do not live, myself

((chorus))

Father, Father
Lift me on Your wings
Show me why the
Angels sing

Oh, Breath of God
I'm tired and cold
And all the dreams I've chased
Have left me feeling old
But You've been waiting here
And now I understand
Please let me fall into
Your nail-scarred, loving hands

Sounds "Christian" to me.

Mike McK
12-16-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Molly:
It may be understood clearly in your heart when you sing it,but it is not a biblical song,nor does it fit what a spiritual song should be in my opinion.Hmm...

Speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord