The Fate of the Worshipers of the Antichrist

[Rev. Komnick]

The Fate of the Worshipers of the Antichrist: For those people who will soon receive the 666 economic mark on either their foreheads or their right hands after King Jesus supernaturally transports those of us who have BELIEVED on Jesus as our personal Savior, the worshipers of Antichrist will have the smoke of their torment ascend up for ever and ever: and they shall have no rest day nor night for whoever worships the beast (the Antichrist) and whosoever receives the mark (666) of his name. (paraphrased from Revelation 14:11) http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Dr. Bob]

Steve - You used the word "soon" to describe folks getting the mark of the antichrist. Do you believe we are seeing the fulfillment of Rev. 4-19 NOW?

[mtompset]

To get all conspiratorial, perhaps credit cards are the number of the beast. After all, you can't rent a car without one. And if you don't get one, you don't have a credit history with which to get a mortgage for a house. I wouldn't be surprised when they turn everything to a common plastic swipe card. And the mark on the hand or forehand is talking about having to remember that pesky PIN number.

Of course 666 is a number which signifies Nero, so perhaps we're living post-rapture. Oh no! We missed it! Don't be deceived, lest you get blasted by a fireball. Oh my! oh my!

With a sense of humour,
Mark Tompsett
(mtompset@ican.net)

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Or perhaps Domitian? Oh no, that is not as exciting or scary as the Tim Lehaye version. We could never accept that.

Joseph

[Rev. SKomnick]

Dear Dr. Bob Griffin:

The reason why I said "soon" is twofold:
A) Jesus said He is returning "soon" according to Revelation 22:7,12,and 20.
B) Current world events show us that the 7 year tribulation period is just around the corner! http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Dr. Bob]

Thanks, Steve, kinda figured that was what you meant (not that we were already in the tribulation and that the mark was coming soon).

[Chris Temple]

I'm curious:

Where is Scripture does it say Jesus will "supernaturally transports those of us who have BELIEVED"?

[Dr. Bob]

GOD said it, so I'm pretty satisfied with the source . . <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Chris Temple]

Dr. Bob:

You stopped one verse too soon smile.gif

Notice 1 Thess 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked occurs at the same time as the "rapture" , i.e., on the last day.

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

[ April 23, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

[Squire Robertsson]

Brother Chris, make sure you are not looking at two mountain tops from such a distance that you cannot see the deep and wide valley between them. This was, I believe, the problem the Jews of Our Lord's time on earth. They saw the Kingdom and the Lamb of God, but from such a distance that they could not do so clearly and differentiate the two.

Keith

[Chris Temple]

Oh, I've got my eyes squarely on both peaks ;) It's called the two-age model of prophecy.

A major basis of biblical prophecy is that of the two-age model of eschatology. This is the belief that there is an “already and not yet” tension built into the Scriptures, describing prophecy fulfilled in the present age in part, and yet the final fulfillment of prophecy awaits at the end of the age. Some things are already, yet other things of the same type are not yet. Very often, soon and future prophesies are given in the very same passage, as in Matthew 24. We are presently saved, yet we must work out our salvation, and will not be saved finally until Christ returns. The kingdom has come, as proclaimed by Christ at his First Coming, the kingdom exists through the church now on earth and Christ’s reign in heaven, yet the kingdom will come finally and completely at his second return. Scripture speaks of this age and the age to come. The Scriptures speak abundantly about the two-age tension.

As Hoekema states:
Tension between the already and not yet is implicit in the teachings of Jesus. For Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is both present and future, and that eternal life is both a present possession and a future hope. This tension, further, also pervades the teachings of the Apostle Paul. For Paul the life of Jesus reveals itself at the present time in our mortal flesh (II Cor. 4:10,11), but the presence of this new life is provisional and imperfect, so that one can speak both if its being revealed and of its being hidden (cf. Col. 3:3; Rom. 8:19; 23).

Also, Hoekema stresses that this already-not yet tension, while pervading the New Testament, is also found abundantly in Revelation. He notes that neither an exclusively futurist nor preterist position does justice to this tension in the book. Trying to understand prophecy while ignoring the already-not yet tension will lead to either a spiritual-only interpretation or a strictly literal and unscriptural fulfillment of not yet received realization. The already-not yet tension allows us to understand what we have come to know as the signs of the times. In opposition to the imminent return of Christ as believed by the premillennialist, Scripture is clear that certain things must take place before Christ returns. These are spelled out abundantly in Matthew 24. The premillennialist’s imminency is mirrored by the preterist’s immediate fulfillment idea of Matthew 24. Neither view adequately views the already and not yet tension of biblical prophecy. The only way a premillennialist can deal with the signs of the times being fulfilled as well as the imminency passages like Matthew 24:40,41: “Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left”; and Luke 17:34,35: “I say unto you, In that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left,” (ASV); is to insert the idea of a secret rapture of believers. Yet in the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13, it is the tares, or non-believers who are gathered together first! This aspect of the rapture is ignored by the dispensationalist (as is the very noisy return of the Lord in I Thessalonians 4:16). When viewed in the two-age model, imminency of return is an impossibility. Certain things must occur first: The preaching of the gospel to all the world, the great apostasy, the great tribulation, and the revelation of antichrist. These signs of the times have begun already in the first century and thereafter in the already phase; the great missionary journeys of the Apostles, the apostasy of the middle ages and the heresies of Rome, the ongoing tribulation of Christians throughout the world through history, and the appearing of many antichrists as John has told us. Yet the great fulfillment of these predictions still occur in their ultimate appearing in the future. The Scriptures tell us that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come (Matt. 12:32); eternal life is received in the age to come (Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30); God’s power will come in the age to come (Heb. 6:5); and Jesus has rescued us from this present evil age. Also the harvest is at the end of the age (Matt. 13:39); the angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just (Matt. 13:49) and Christ is with us until the end of the age (Matt. 28:20). The clear teaching of the New Testament is that there are two ages in eschatology; this “present evil world” (Gal. 1:4) and the end of the age or the age to come. While the Second Coming cannot be imminent, it will be sudden and unexpected when Christ does return (I Thessalonians 5:2).

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Actually, to be more precise, there are 2 segments of the fate of the worshippers of the Antichrist:
A) They will suffer torment beyond what the human mind can even imagine when they will be stung by demonic creatures resembling scorpions for a period of 5 months, "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; they shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them." (see Revelation Chapter Nine). This torment will occur BEFORE THEIR DEATH.
B) The second phase of their torment will be AFTER THEIR DEATH when, ". . .the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night." (Revelation 14:11a) http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel http://www.geocities.com/i_love_kingjesus/love.html
So thanks and praise to God that those of us who trust His holy shed BLOOD to pay our sin debt will be BO-BOW SU LONG-IT (up in Heaven) when the Antichrist will soon be revealed after MILLIONS OF US BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIANS DISAPPEAR! Praise God that King Jesus is RETURNING SOON!!! (Revelation 22:7,12,20).
Rev. Steve Komnick

[Kiffin]

Well, I guess I would call myself a Amillinelist with a PostMill edge to it. I like both views and think both compliment one another. The PreTrib view seems to teach a escapist theology for the Church rather than a Millitant Church carrying out the great Commission til the end of the World when Christ returns (Mt.24:14, 28:18-20)

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Sister, thanks and praise to God, that I won't be here (and neither will any other people who have trusted GOD'S HOLY SHED BLOOD TO PAY THEIR SIN DEBT) when those horrible demonic creatures (resembling huge scorpions) will be flying around terrorizing the population of the world stinging people WITH A PAIN SO INTENSE THAT THEY WILL WISH THEY COULD DIE BUT WON'T BE ABLE TO FOR A PERIOD OF FIVE MONTHS (SEE REVELATION CHAPTER NINE): "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; they shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them." http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Chris Temple]

Rev. Komnick:

I take it you also believe that a pregnant a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a garland of twelve stars on her head will literally appear? And you are expecting to see a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads as well? (Rev 12). Were the prophecies in Revelation to occur literally, or representatively?

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

In answer to your question, part of Revelation is literal and part of it is symbolic; so you need to realize that the most important thing in the world is KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF HELL, and by getting somebody saved in the CHURCH AGE (NOW), you also guarantee that they will not be here when the Antichrist shows up. http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel
Rev. Steve Komnick

[Dr. Bob]

Brother Komnick - I whole-heartedly agree about the need to preach the Good News of the Gospel NOW while there is time. Some on the BB will have different interpretations of Revelation in general and prophecies in particular, though.

Do want to ask you how we discern which parts of Revelation are to be fulfilled literally and which are only symbolic.

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

I'm so glad that you asked, my beloved brother!
King Jesus Christ, (the living Creator of the universe, who also happens to be the Son of the living God), said that the blessed Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth; thanks and praise to God!!! http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

DON'T take the 666 Mark: Christian Advice

If any of you have a Christian website, you're invited to join my webring: DON'T take the 666 Mark: Christian Advice

Here's how you pull it up on the internet: www.webring.yahoo.com (http://www.webring.yahoo.com)
Then click on "Religion and Beliefs", then click on "Christianity", then click on "Advice", and then scroll down until you see "DON'T take the 666 Mark: Christian Advice" and click it on.
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Chris Temple]

Rev. Komnick:

The most important thing in the world is not keeping people out of hell. The most important thing is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And this we do by making his name known among the nations. By doing so God calls to himself his sheep who know his voice. He has many people in these cities. The great news is that no one whom the Father has chosen will ever be in hell.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

[ April 26, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Chris, actually I have a scripture to correct you and prove that the most important thing in the world is indeed to KEEP PEOPLE OUT OF HELL and here's the scripture: Luke 19:10 Jesus says, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." You see, Chris, when you get somebody saved today in the Church age, you not only get them saved from everlasting hellfire, but you also ensure that they will be not LEFT BEHIND AFTER THE RAPTURE! Please see this website which shows in detail about the demonic creatures who sting people with undescribable pain (perhaps this will help you see the importance of KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF HELL): http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheblood777/777.html?988358431450
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Chris Temple]

But for whose glory are lost sinners saved?

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter III, article 3:

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,[7] to the praise of His glorious grace;[8] others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.[9]

7. I Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8. Eph. 1:5-6
9. Rom. 9:22-23; Jude 1:4

[Joseph_Botwinick]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
But for whose glory are lost sinners saved?

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter III, article 3:

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,[7] to the praise of His glorious grace;[8] others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.[9]

7. I Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8. Eph. 1:5-6
9. Rom. 9:22-23; Jude 1:4<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joseph

[Dr. Bob]

Double Amen

When will the "decisionists" like Billy Graham or Hyles or ?? ever recognize that the purpose of man is doxological and not soteriological? It is up to GOD to do the saving . . .

Jonah had it right in the belly of the whale <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Salvation is of the Lord!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Beloved Brethren:
I have several scriptures to support my viewpoint:
"For him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
SUPPOSE YOUR NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE WAS ON FIRE AT 3AM AND YOU FAILED TO MAKE YOUR BEST EFFORT TO WAKE HIM UP AND WARN HIM; YOU WOULD BE GUILTY OF MURDER ACCORDING TO JAMES 2:10, "FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL."
So, in the same way, a Christian is guilty of SPIRITUAL MURDER when he fails to warn his neighbor of his impending doom in the everlasting Lake of Fire.
Luke 19:10 Jesus says, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
So, without any doubt, the MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD is KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF HELL!
Thanks and praise to King Jesus, the resurrected Son of the living God!
TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY!!! http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Joseph_Botwinick]

So, is that more important than worshipping God in truth and in spirit? Is that more important than preaching the truth? Many Tim Lehayeites who have Left (the scripture) Behind would say that it is ok to sell some psychological mind trip if it leads people to faith in Christ even though it is based on man-made fear and not scripture. What do you think?

Joseph

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Thanks and praise to God that
SALVATION IS OF THE LORD!
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).
"How shall they hear without a preacher?"
(HOW SHALL THEY BE SAVED BOTH FROM THE TERRORS OF THE SOON-COMING REIGN OF THE ANTICHRIST AND SAVED FROM THE EVERLASTING LAKE OF FIRE WITHOUT A PREACHER?) http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

My Beloved Brethren:
For those people who reject Jesus Christ as their personal Savior prior to the Rapture, being LEFT BEHIND is definately a REALITY and NOT SOME PSYCHOLOGICAL MIND TRIP! "Then two shall be in the field; one shall be taken, and one shall be left. (LEFT BEHIND)" according to the Words of the Creator of the entire universe, our resurrected Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ, (GOD THE SON, AND THE LIVING SON OF THE LIVING GOD)!!! http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Kiffin]

Steve,

Rejection of the pre trib rapture theory is not equal to rejecting the Second Coming of Christ . The pre trib theory is only a little over 150 yrs old. Most believers historically have been Post trib.

[ April 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

[Chris Temple]

The Day of the Lord, the Second Coming and the Rapture

The Day of the Lord as presented in Scripture presents a large problem to both dispensationalists and postmillennialists. The dispensationalist divides the Day of the Lord into two parts, in order to account for the invisible rapture of the church theory. At some points the day of the Lord is meant to be Christ coming to rapture his saints out of harms way prior to the tribulation, and at other times it means the final day of the Lord, at the end of all time. Depending on just which day of the Lord one is talking about is dependent on one’s eschatological presuppositions.

In the two-phase, dispensational second coming, the secret rapture is proposed in order to accommodate the immanency necessity, and then after a literal 7-year tribulation, Christ comes again in victory. No where does the New Testament teach a second and a third coming of Christ. This also present another problem: if we are going to interpret literally, as the dispensationalist says we must, then 7 years to the day after the church mysteriously disappears, Christ must return. It cannot be 6 ½ years, or 7.1 years, or 7 years and 1 hour, but it must literally be 7 years. Thus, it renders Jesus words meaningless when he said, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father”, Mark 13:31,32 (ASV). If dispensationalism were true, you could set the world clock to the very second of Christ’s return; exactly 7 years to the millisecond after the rapture.

The postmillennialist also runs into trouble with the day of the Lord. If the Second Coming, occurred in A.D. 70, it was just as invisible as in the rapture theory. This also divides up the Second coming into two parts. This also does damage to the words of Christ to the high priest in Mark 14:62 “And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven", (ASV). If there is any invisible return of Christ, his word is nullified.

Hoekema states, “There is, however, no sound Scriptural basis for the position that the Second Coming of Christ must be divided into these two phases.” Among reasons Hoekema gives is that (1) it cannot be derived from the New Testament words for the Second Coming; (2) New Testament passages that describe the great tribulation do not indicate that the church will be removed from the earth prior to the tribulation beginning; (3) the most famous New Testament passages which teach the “rapture” do not teach it pretribulationally; (4) Christ’s Second Coming involves both a coming with his people as well as for his people; and (5) no argument for a two-stage Second Coming can be argued from the teaching that the great tribulation will be an outpouring of God’s wrath on the world.

Hoekema agrees that the church will not be the subject of the wrath of God, but nowhere in Scripture does it say that the church will be free from the wrath of evil men. Many in the church have been given a false hope that they will not suffer any tribulation, either from God or from man, due to the pre-trib rapture theory.

In Scripture, the Day of the Lord is clearly one event only. It may be more than a literal 24-hour day, or it may be less, but it is clearly only one eschatological occurrence. According to the Scriptures, the Day of the Lord is that day of judgment (Matt. 7:22; John 12:48); the day of resurrection (John 6:39,40; 44; 54; 22:24 ;) to be accompanied by celestial signs (Acts 2:20); a time when it is good to be found blameless (I Cor. 1:8); a day of destruction and salvation (I Cor. 5:5); a day of full understanding (II Cor. 1:14); it comes like a thief in the night (I Thess. 5:2); it is a day of mercy (II Tim. 1:18) and rewards (II Tim. 4:8). It is also the day of the last trumpet when the elect are gathered (Matt. 24:3;31); the dead are raised (I Cor. 15:52); the Lord descends with a shout (I Thess. 4:6); the mystery is accomplished (Rev. 10:7); and the eternal state is brought in (Rev. 11:15). Clearly, the rapture, Second Coming and Day of the Lord all occur at the same time, as Christ said, “No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day”, John 6:44 (ASV).


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
Steve,

Rejection of the pre trib rapture theory is not equal to rejecting the Second Coming of Christ . The pre trib theory is only a little over 150 yrs old. Most believers historically have been Post trib.

[ April 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
The pre trib theory is only a little over 150 yrs old. Most believers historically have been Post trib.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There are books over 300 years old which detail the pre-mil, pre-trib rapture position exactly as most dispensational premillenialists present it today.

It is an error to say "most believers historically have been Post trib." That is a very subjective statement subject to your definition of "believers." Most of the historic dissenting churches have been pre-mil, with the timing of the rapture left either unsaid, or in doubt. Only a few later Baptists such as Spurgeon were openly Post Trib.

[Chris Temple]

Dr. Cassidy:

Dispensationalism began in the mid 1800s with JN Darby. While premillennialism has been a belief since early on, it has always been the historic, no rapture type. Amil and premil existed side by side for most of church history with a later birth of postmil. And the postmil position was by far the majority position of our baptist fathers. Dispy pretrib is the new kid on the block :D

[Kiffin]

Thomas,

There are a few obscure statements 300 yrs ago that may talk of some sort of belief in a pre trib rapture but that is open for debate. The facts are that Pre Trib has it's birth with Dispensationalism. Dispensational Pre Mill of Scofield is differant from Historic Pre mill that Spurgeon and many of the Church Fathers held to.

Dispensationalism as Chris stated come from Darby and Scofield. Actually a vast majority of Baptists were Post Mill (I'm not) before the 20th century. Most in the 1800's were Post Mill due in lage part to Dr. Charles Hodge's teachings on this. The idea of a Pre Trib rapture is totally absent from the 1644 London, 1655 Midland, 1689 London because it was not invented and made popular til Darby and Scofield.

[ April 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

[Karen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Temple:
[QB] The Day of the Lord, the Second Coming and the Rapture

If dispensationalism were true, you could set the world clock to the very second of Christ’s return; exactly 7 years to the millisecond after the rapture....
Many in the church have been given a false hope that they will not suffer any tribulation, either from God or from man, due to the pre-trib rapture theory."

I think that you misunderstand here.
In dispensationalist thought, there could
be an indefinite period of time between
the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation.
The Tribulation begins when the Antichrist
signs the 7-year treaty with Israel.

To believe that there will be a literal
Tribulation from which God will deliver
Christians in the Rapture is not a
belief that God automatically delivers
Christians from trials and persecution.
Millions of Christians right now are
being persecuted. It is a belief that
there is a particular purpose of God for
the Tribulation.
Ie., among other things, God's purpose
for the nation of Israel, in which
there will be a collective turning to
Jesus as the Messiah when He returns
visibly.
I tend towards this view of prophecy
because I think it is most consistent
with how God fulfilled prophecy with
Jesus' first coming. Jesus fulfilled
many specific signs that were not just allegorical. Also,God fulfills His purposes in history and is simply
not done with Israel. This does not
imply a two-track plan of salvation.
Everyone in Heaven will be there
by the blood of Jesus.

Karen

[Karen]

Sorry about the typing of the last post.
Thought I had followed instructions about
dealing with "hard returns". Obviously not.
Karen

[Chris Temple]

Dear Karen:

Even if the tribulation did not begin "right away" after the rapture, a literal 7 year period demands a known, exact time when Christ would return upon which the remaining folks could set their watches. A known date flies in the face of Scripture which says "of this time no one knows but the Father". smile.gif

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
There are a few obscure statements 300 yrs ago that may talk of some sort of belief in a pre trib rapture but that is open for debate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

[ April 30, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
Dispensationalism began in the mid 1800s with JN Darby. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Opponents of pretribulationism have often tried to "poison the well" by contending that a pre-trib understanding of the Bible is novel and/or has sprung from a polluted source. However, the last few years have witnessed the discovery of voices from the past testifying to a two-stage return of Christ. The latest pre-Darby voice to join the chorus is that of an early American Baptist pastor and educator, Morgan Edwards (1722-95).

During his student days at Bristol Baptist Seminary in England (1742-44), Morgan Edwards wrote an essay for eschatology class on his views of Bible prophecy. This essay was later published in Philadelphia (1788) under the following title: Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties. (This is actually one of the shorter titles for a book published in his day.) The term in the title "Last-Novelties" refers to what we would call today the eternal state; "novelties" refers to the new conditions of the future new heavens and new earth. Upon reading the 56 page work, it is clear that Edwards published it unchanged from his student days. Thus, it represents a view developed by the early 1740s.

Mr. Morgan's views are not only pre-mil, pre-trib, but also mildly dispensational. I suggest you find a copy and read it. smile.gif

[Kiffin]

Thomas,

For that one statement you can find hundreds of Amill, Historic Premill statements of the Church Fathers. The statement "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." Could be interpreted to teach Mid Trib or Pre Wrath also. I would also like to know who translated it. Grant Jeffrey has in vain tried to translate Church Father's writings into Dispensationalism but with a very bias pre trib spin that misrepresents early Church teaching. Regardeless the statement is obscure though it could possibly show some sort of pre trib belief in some part of the early Church but I would be curious who did the translation since no pre trib belief can be found in Clement, Ignatius, Ireanous, Shepherd of Hermes, Augustine and certaintly is no where to be found among the Reformers, Anabaptists or early Baptists.

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Beloved Brethren:
Thanks and praise be unto our resurrected Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ that those of us who have trusted God's holy shed BLOOD for the attonement for our sins will not be here when the Man of Sin (the Antichrist) shows up! According to the prophesy of Daniel (from the Old Testament) the prophetic time clock would stop ticking when the Messiah would be "cut off" (killed) (executed) (crucified). According to that particular prophesy, God would deal specially with the nation of Israel for 70 weeks (or sevens) of years (70 times 7 = 490 years). When Jesus Christ was crucified after 69 weeks of years (after 483 years), it was like a "timeout" at a basketball game, however, this particular "timeout" has already run approxamately 2000 years. After God takes His prized possession (the Church) home to Heaven, then God will deal specially with the nation of Israel for the 70th week of years (for seven years). So, beloved brethren, let's just do the descent thing by keeping as many people out of Hell as possible before our opportunity for winning lost souls to the Savior is SOON (Rev. 22:7,12,20) over!!! http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofjesus/22.html
John 3:16, Romans 3:23, James 2:10, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23, Revelation 20:14,15, Mark 9:44,46,48, Revelation 14:11a, Ephesians 1:7, Matthew 1:23b, Romans 10:9, Revelation 3:20, Romans 10:13.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (from everlasting torment in the eternal Lake of Fire)." (Romans 10:13).
"And others save with fear, PULLING THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. . ." (Jude 23a)
With love in our soon-returning (Revelation 22:7,12,20), resurrected Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

When the worshippers of the Antichrist (the people who receive the 666 Mark of the Beast) are attacked by the demonic creatures out of the bottomless pit for a period of 5 months (see Revelation Chapter 9) although the torment will be similar to that of the eternal Lake of Fire (since people will want to commit suicide to stop the intense pain but won't be able to), the major difference is that during this particular 5 months there will be light on the earth, whereas in Hell it's a place of totally black fire with no light whatsoever. http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Chris Temple]

Steve:

Do you believe that any will be in hell whom God chose in Him before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined them to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will? (Eph 1:4-5)


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rev. Steven Komnick:
So, beloved brethren, let's just do the descent thing by keeping as many people out of Hell as possible before our opportunity for winning lost souls to the Savior is SOON (Rev. 22:7,12,20) over!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Dear Chris:

The occupants of Hell will be those who didn't trust God's holy shed BLOOD to pay their sin debt (as you can see by clicking here for a detailed story about the occupants of Hell): http://www.geocities.com/theshedbloodofjesussaves/2.html?989303893480
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Psalm145 3]

Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Ye must be born again (http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/bridge/277/index.htm)

[Frogman]

I believe the church will be removed from the world before tribulation.

I agree with Bro. Komnick. parts of Revelation are surely spiritual and parts are literal. I understand it is difficult to always see either or when we are looking we look too hard with the eyes of men and not rightly with the eyes of the Spirit.

I have talked with many who say the church will be present during the tribulation, and they base this interpretation predominantly upon Rev. 3.21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

In answer to this for consideration I would ask how do we deal with Chapter 4.

vs. 1: "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
vs. 2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Consider the throne for a moment, for it is the throne of God. Look over into chapter 5:

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

The one who sat upon the throne then is God the Father, while the one standing as the Lamb slain is certainly the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world. Jesus our Lord.
Further reading here would differentiate the two further in vs. 13. (It is not necessary for me to list scripture in such a way, each one is very capable of reading).

Consider the place of the throne upon which our Lord shall sit. The throne of David, is this throne, now or was it ever found in heaven?

Consider also the time of the binding of Satan for one thousand years Read this in Rev. 20, where it also differentiates between the first and second resurrection.

I also agree that it is of great importance to preach the gospel that the work of God in the salvation of whosoever He would call is performed. Yet there is a time for all things, and no thing in scripture should be ignored or explained away simply because of its difficulty.
We have the promise of being able to understand the things of the Spirit, yet we must approach the throne of God and ask of this understanding in humility. God knows my heart better than even I do, it is nothing for Him to know if my asking for knowledge is for the purpose of pointing lost souls to the Lamb of God, or for the sinful pride which would swell up inside me in showing myself approved.
God help that I be kept humble that I may by His hand be useful and of service as well as the multitude of my brethren who also have the witness of the Spirit of Christ in there hearts and on their tongues.
God bless all.

[Psalm145 3]

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"the hour of temptation" refers to the future 7 year tribulation "which shall come upon all the world"

Brothers and sisters, let us pray we are a Philadelphia type church that God will "keep thee from the hour of temptation"

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Amen! Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frogman:
I believe the church will be removed from the world before tribulation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with the pretrib rapture view is not Rev. 3.21 but rather that it is not explicitly (nor do I believe implictly) taught in Scripture.

The Day of the Lord as presented in Scripture presents a large problem to both dispensationalists and postmillennialists. The dispensationalist divides the Day of the Lord into two parts, in order to account for the invisible rapture of the church theory. At some points the day of the Lord is meant to be Christ coming to rapture his saints out of harms way prior to the tribulation, and at other times it means the final day of the Lord, at the end of all time. Depending on just which day of the Lord one is talking about is dependent on one’s eschatological presuppositions. In the two-phase, dispensational second coming, the secret rapture is proposed in order to accommodate the imminency necessity, and then after a literal 7-year tribulation, Christ comes again in victory. Nowhere does the New Testament teach a second and a third coming of Christ. This also present another problem: if we are going to interpret literally, as the dispensationalist says we must, then 7 years to the day after the church mysteriously disappears, Christ must return. It cannot be 6 ½ years, or 7.1 years, or 7 years and 1 hour, but it must literally be 7 years. Thus, it renders Jesus words meaningless when he said, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father”, Mark 13:31,32 (ASV). If dispensationalism were true, you could set the world clock to the very second of Christ’s return; exactly 7 years to the millisecond after the rapture.

The postmillennialist also runs into trouble with the day of the Lord. If the Second Coming, occurred in A.D. 70, it was just as invisible as in the rapture theory. This also divides up the Second coming into two parts. This also does damage to the words of Christ to the high priest in Mark 14:62 “And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven", (ASV). If there is any invisible return of Christ, his word is nullified.
Hoekema states, “There is, however, no sound Scriptural basis for the position that the Second Coming of Christ must be divided into these two phases.” Among reasons Hoekema gives is that (1) it cannot be derived from the New Testament words for the Second Coming; (2) New Testament passages that describe the great tribulation do not indicate that the church will be removed from the earth prior to the tribulation beginning; (3) the most famous New Testament passages which teach the “rapture” do not teach it pretribulationally; (4) Christ’s Second Coming involves both a coming with his people as well as for his people; and (5) no argument for a two-stage Second Coming can be argued from the teaching that the great tribulation will be an outpouring of God’s wrath on the world. Hoekema agrees that the church will not be the subject of the wrath of God, but nowhere in Scripture does it say that the church will be free from the wrath of evil men. Many in the church have been given a false hope that they will not suffer any tribulation, either from God or from man, due to the pre-trib rapture theory.

In Scripture, the Day of the Lord is clearly one event only. It may be more than a literal 24-hour day, or it may be less, but it is clearly only one eschatological occurrence. According to the Scriptures, the Day of the Lord is that day of judgement (Matt. 7:22; John 12:48); the day of resurrection (John 6:39,40; 44; 54; 22:24) to be accompanied by celestial signs (Acts 2:20); a time when it is good to be found blameless (I Cor. 1:8); a day of destruction and salvation (I Cor. 5:5); a day of full understanding (II Cor. 1:14); it comes like a thief in the night (I Thess. 5:2); it is a day of mercy (II Tim. 1:18) and rewards (II Tim. 4:8). It is also the day of the last trumpet when the elect are gathered (Matt. 24:3;31); the dead are raised (I Cor. 15:52); the Lord descends with a shout (I Thess. 4:6); the mystery is accomplished (Rev. 10:7); and the eternal state is brought in (Rev. 11:15). Clearly, the rapture, Second Coming and Day of the Lord all occur at the same time, as Christ said, “No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day”, John 6:44 (ASV).

[ May 15, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

[Dr. Bob]

Chris - Where would a non-pretrib person then put I Thess 4:13-17? That parallels Rev. 4:1 closely (which PRECEDES the events of the tribulation in Rev. 4-19) and talks about Christ coming to receive the born again of all ages to himself.

Nothing about establishing a kingdom or the other events of the Day of the Lord. Or is this a yo-yo instead of a rapture - everybody goes up and down real quick! :D

Since we recognize Armageddon as a 6 month military campaign (not a single day), could not the Day of the Lord also be easily "stretched" into 7+ years? == Rapture, Tribulation, Armageddom, Revelation, then the Kingdom? After all, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day to the Lord . . .

Just thinking out loud.

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Chris - Where would a non-pretrib person then put I Thess 4:13-17? That parallels Rev. 4:1 closely (which PRECEDES the events of the tribulation in Rev. 4-19) and talks about Christ coming to receive the born again of all ages to himself.

Nothing about establishing a kingdom or the other events of the Day of the Lord. Or is this a yo-yo instead of a rapture - everybody goes up and down real quick! :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dr. Bob:

You're right - for the non-pretribber, the Rapture occurs and the risen saints immediately return to the earth with the Lord!

Vern Poythress said this in JETS 37/4 (December 1994 )
************************
We cannot enter into all the details of Chilton’s system at this point. But we claim that this kind of approach cannot reasonably be sustained in dealing with the Thessalonian letters. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 is about the second coming. 1 Thessalonians 5:1–10, which is right next door to 4:13–18, must also be about the second coming. Hence 2 Thessalonians 1, which builds on 1 Thessalonians, is also about the second coming. Nothing in either letter has any real tendency to point in a direction different from this understanding.
Chilton and others like him can find what they want in the Thessalonian letters only because they first read in what they afterwards read out. But their interpretations disintegrate once we try steadfastly to put ourselves in the shoes of the Thessalonian Christians. Paul only stayed in Thessalonica for a few weeks (Acts 17:1–10). Moreover, even though Paul had
talked to them about the second coming (2 Thess 2:5), the letters show that the Thessalonian Christians were confused. They did not completely grasp even relatively basic matters of eschatology. The Thessalonians did not already have a mastery of some esoteric eschatological system.
Now Paul understood the situation of the Thessalonians and their capabilities. Paul would not have used language in such a way that the Thessalonians would almost surely misunderstand.
Once we understand the level on which Paul must communicate to them, it follows that 1 Thess 4:13–18 is about the second coming. The transition in 5:1 is not violent. Hence the Thessalonians will understand the “times and dates” of 5:1 as the times and dates regarding the events associated with the second coming. Hence 5:1–10 is about the second coming.22 Chilton (ibid. 119) wants to make 1 Thess 2:14–16 into a background for understanding 5:1–10, but his appeal to 2:14–16 is very weak. For one thing, 2:16 is a notoriously difficult and obscure verse. It may possibly refer to the fall of Jerusalem, but it may just as easily be a general reference to the hardening of the Jews, along the lines of Rom 11:8. Moreover the immediate context of 1 Thess 4:13–18 is decisive for the way that 5:1–10 will be understood. 1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 is too remote and too lacking in prominence for the Thessalonians to be aware of a salient connection.
Next, 1 Thessalonians is the main background for 2 Thessalonians. In view of the sustained concern for the second coming in 1 Thessalonians, the Thessalonian Christians are bound to understand 2 Thessalonians 1 as a continuation of the same topic. The question is not whether one can invent an interpretive scheme, such as Chilton’s, capable of interpreting the whole passage figuratively. The question is whether the Thessalonians have any significant clues that would lead them to turn away from what from their point of view is the most obvious meaning.
In short, there is no escaping the fact that from the standpoint of the Thessalonian Christians 2 Thessalonians 1 is “obviously” about the second coming. Paul knew the capabilities of the Thessalonians and did not intend to confuse them. Hence Paul was actually talking about the second coming.

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Dear Brother Dallas:
I'm SMILING because you agree with me; thanks and praise to God!!!
The fate of the worhippers of the Antichrist will be 2 fold:
A) Hell on earth.
B) Everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire.
Here's a new website about the horrors of the damned in Hell: http://www.geocities.com/theshedbloodofjesussaves/2.html?989303893480
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Frogman]

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

Let me say first of all that we have reason to rejoice, a young man was saved this past Sunday morning at church. Here is one more who is sealed and regardless of our views of the presence or absence of the church during tribulation, here is one more who has the seal of the Spirit. Praise God for the Blood of Jesus.

In answer to the teaching of a false hope that the church will not have to suffer at the hands of man or of God let me begin with Matthew 20.20-23.

"Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."

Cross reference with Mark 10.35-45

What cup is this and what baptism?
When is this cup drank from and this baptism received?
Now let's turn to Revelation 7.1-3

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Considering our readings here, then I would ask:

Who is receiving this seal?
Further reading would show in this text the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel.

When are they receiving this seal?

After the opening of the six seals from the seven sealed book, chapter 6 and 5 respectively.

When are those in the present age sealed with the seal of the Living God?

I cannot see how teaching the pre-tribulation rapture of the church is teaching a false hope that the saved in Christ will not have to suffer at the hands of man nor of God.

On the contrary, I see that teaching otherwise would dangerously lead one toward contradicting the description of salvation as written in Romans 6.11.

If a false hope is being taught in the rapture of the Bride of Christ, then is a false assurance being taught in our preaching that salvation is of Grace and the knowledge of its being received is made known to us through the revelation of the Holy Spirit?
If it is necessary for the saved to endure the tribulation, as a seeming trial then is it altogether the truth to teach salvation is completely of Grace and not of works in any way?

I remain assured that all who have found the cup of the wrath of God given to them have also found that Christ has drank of that cup and upon looking into it, by the power of the Spirit of God, we receive a cup of blessing. Praise God for the obedience of the Son, for He prayed the removal of this cup if it were possible, but not by His will, but the will of the Father. This being the will of God then that His son should drink of the cup of His wrath necessarily causes myself to be handed this cup, in conviction, yet if I tried to drink of the cup before the Lamb of God received it, my carnal nature would not be able, though it would answer, I am able. However, I cannot on my own merit satisfy our Holy God, not being able to do this then, I would not be able to receive the baptism of the Spirit, nor to receive the seal of the Father unto eternal life, but would set about seeking to establish my own righteousness, with no regard to the righteousness of God and would expect to be saved because of my accomplishment.

God bless all with the ability to witness the birth of many children into His kingdom.

[ May 16, 2001: Message edited by: Frogman ]

[Chris Temple]

A major basis of the nonmillennial position is that of the two-age model of eschatology. This is the belief that there is an “already and not yet” tension built into the Scriptures, describing prophecy fulfilled in the present age in part, and yet the final fulfillment of prophecy awaits at the end of the age. Some things are already, yet other things of the same type are not yet. Very often, soon and future prophesies are given in the very same passage, as in Matthew 24. We are presently saved, yet we must work out our salvation, and will not be saved finally until Christ returns. The kingdom has come, as proclaimed by Christ at his First Coming, the kingdom exists through the church now on earth and Christ’s reign in heaven, yet the kingdom will come finally and completely at his second return. Scripture speaks of this age and the age to come. The Scriptures speak abundantly about the two-age tension.

As Hoekema states:
Tension between the already and not yet is implicit in the teachings of Jesus. For Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is both present and future, and that eternal life is both a present possession and a future hope. This tension, further, also pervades the teachings of the Apostle Paul. For Paul the life of Jesus reveals itself at the present time in our mortal flesh (II Cor. 4:10,11), but the presence of this new life is provisional and imperfect, so that one can speak both if its being revealed and of its being hidden (cf. Col. 3:3; Rom. 8:19; 23).

Also, Hoekema stresses that this already-not yet tension, while pervading the New Testament, is also found abundantly in Revelation. He notes that neither an exclusively futurist nor preterist position does justice to this tension in the book. Trying to understand prophecy while ignoring the already-not yet tension will lead to either only a spiritual interpretation or a strictly literal and unscriptural fulfillment of not yet received realization.

The already-not yet tension allows us to understand what we have come to know as the signs of the times. In opposition to the imminent return of Christ as believed by the premillennialist, Scripture is clear that certain things must take place before Christ returns. These are spelled out abundantly in Matthew 24. The premillennialist’s immanency is mirrored by the preterist’s immediate fulfillment idea of Matthew 24. Neither view adequately views the already and not yet tension of biblical prophecy. The only way a premillennialist can deal with the signs of the times being fulfilled as well as the immanency passages like Matthew 24:40,41: “Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left”; and Luke 17:34,35: “I say unto you, In that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left,” (ASV); is to insert the idea of a secret rapture of believers. Yet in the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13, it is the tares, or non-believers who are gathered together first!

This aspect of the rapture is ignored by the dispensationalist (as is the very noisy return of the Lord in I Thessalonians 4:16). When viewed in the two-age model, immanency of return is an impossibility. Certain things must occur first. The preaching of the gospel to all the world, the great apostasy, the great tribulation, and the revelation of antichrist. These signs of the times have begun already in the first century and thereafter in the already phase; the great missionary journeys of the Apostles, the apostasy of the middle ages and the heresies of Rome, the ongoing tribulation of Christians throughout the world through history, and the appearing of many antichrists as John has told us. Yet the great fulfillment of these predictions still occur in their ultimate appearing in the future. The Scriptures tell us that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come (Matt. 12:32); eternal life is received in the age to come (Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30); God’s power will come in the age to come (Heb. 6:5); and Jesus has rescued us from this present evil age. Also the harvest is at the end of the age (Matt. 13:39); the angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just (Matt. 13:49) and Christ is with us until the end of the age (Matt. 28:20). The clear teaching of the New Testament is that there are two ages in eschatology; this “present evil world” (Gal. 1:4) and the end of the age or the age to come. While the Second Coming cannot be imminent, it will be sudden and unexpected when Christ does return (I Thessalonians 5:2).

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Dear Dallas:
Thanks and praise to God for the young man at your church who trusted God's holy shed blood to save him from the everlasting Lake of Fire! http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

Where the Word of God indicates that the SMOKE of their torment ascends up forever and ever (see Revelation 14:9-11), this is probably the IDENTICAL SMOKE FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (FROM WHICH THE STINGING DEMONIC CREATURES WILL SOON ARISE) (see Revelation Chapter 9). What HORROR soon awaits the worshippers of the Antichrist! http://www.geocities.com/theshedbloodofjesussaves/2.html?989303893480
Rev. Steven Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist

[Frogman]

"The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness."
Isaiah 57.1 & 2

I take this by faith, along with the following:


"Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Isaiah 7.11-14

God Bless you in your walk with him.

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rev. Steven Komnick:
Where the Word of God indicates that the SMOKE of their torment ascends up forever and ever (see Revelation 14:9-11), this is probably the IDENTICAL SMOKE FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (FROM WHICH THE STINGING DEMONIC CREATURES WILL SOON ARISE) (see Revelation Chapter 9). What HORROR soon awaits the worshippers of the Antichrist! http://www.geocities.com/theshedbloodofjesussaves/2.html?989303893480
Rev. Steven Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve,

You're kinda stuck in a wooden literalism, ain't ye?

This is a historical section (Rev 14.6-10) dealing with the apostate Roman Church. The Geneva Bible notes say this:

4:6 {4} And I saw {5} another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

(4) The other part (as I said in the first verse) See Geneva on "Re 14:1" is of the acts of the Lamb, the manner of which is delivered in two sorts, of his speech and of his facts. His speeches are set forth to #Re 14:7-13, and his facts to the sixteenth chapter. In the speech of the Lamb, which is the word of the Gospel, are taught in this place these things: The service of the godly consisting inwardly of reverence towards God, and outwardly of the glorifying of him: the visible sign of which is adoration #Re 14:7. The overthrowing of wicked Babylon, #Re 14:8 and the fall of every one of the ungodly who worship the beast, #Re 14:9-11. Finally the state of the holy servants of God both present, #Re 14:12 and to come, most blessed, according to the promise of God in #Re 14:13.
(5) This angel is a type or figure of the good and faithful servants of God, whom God especially from the time of Boniface the eighth has raised up to the proclaiming of the gospel of Christ, both by preaching and by writing. So God first, near the time of the same Boniface, used Peter Cassiodorus an Italian: after, Arnold "de villa nova", a Frenchman, then Occam, dante, Petrarch, after the "Johannes de rupe casa", a Franciscan: after again, John Wycliff an Englishman, and so continually one or another to the restoring of the truth, and enlarging of his Church.

4:7 {6} Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

(6) That is, Babylon is destroyed by the sentence and judgment of God: the execution of which John describes in chapter 18. This voice of the ministers of Christ has continued since the time that Babylon (which is Rome) has by deliberate counsel and malice questioned the light of the gospel offered from God.

14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the {a} wrath of her fornication.

(a) Of her fornication, by which God was provoked to wrath.

14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, {7} If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

(7) That is, will not worship God alone, but will transfer his divine honour to this beast, whether he do it with his heart, or counterfeiting in show. "For he (says Christ) that denies me before men, him will I deny before my Father and his angels" #Mt 10:32. This is the voice of the holy ministry, which at this time is used of the holy and faithful servants of God. For having now sufficiently found out the public obstinacy of Babylon, they no longer work to speak out against the same: but to save some particular members by terror (as Jude speaks) and to pluck them out of the flame: or else lead them away by vehement commiseration of their state, they set before them eternal death into which they rush unaware, unless they return to God in time, but the godly who are of their own flock, they exhort to patience, obedience and faith to others.

[Rev. Steven Komnick]

My Beloved Brethren:
It's been a pleasure having this discussion with you. I know the Rapture is near, but there's a good possibility that I'll take my trip to Heaven early since I've been having pains in both my upper left chest and central chest (possibly due to clogged arteries). Please pray for me. I'm chuckling at that comment about "wooden literalism": HA! HA! HA! The fact is, brothers, that Revelation 14:9-11 is indeed to be taken literally about the smoke of their torment ascending up forever and ever for those people who worhip the Antichrist by receiving the 666 economic mark (Mark of the Beast) in either their right hands or foreheads.
PRECIOUS IN THE SIGHT OF THE LORD IS THE DEATH OF HIS SAINTS.
HOWEVER, THE JUSTICE OF THE HOLY GOD MANDATES THAT THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS UP FOREVER AND EVER AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT WHOEVER WORSHIPS THE BEAST (THE ANTICHRIST), AND HIS IMAGE AND WHOSOEVER RECEIVES THE MARK (666) OF HIS NAME. http://www.geocities.com/theshedbloodofjesussaves/2.html?989303893480 http://www.geocities.com/SavedByTheShedBLOODofEmmanuel http://www.geocities.com/savedbytheshedbloodofgod/best7.html?986535365030
Rev. Steve Komnick, Missionary/School Evangelist