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Mel Miller
12-12-2005, 01:43 PM
JESUS’ BIRTHDAY WAS ISRAEL’S NEW YEAR’S DAY IN BC 3-2.
;) Published in "Senior Experience", First Baptist
Church of Norfolk, Va. Nov/Dec.05

The “Star of Bethlehem” does not tell us when Jesus was born but told the Wise Men where the child would be found. Computer models, however, show when Jupiter and Venus came into conjunction at different times between his birth in BC 3-2 and the time they worshiped Him prior to the death of Herod in BC One. A brilliant visual display developed by the Griffith Observatory may be seen by going to www.askelm.com/star/ (http://www.askelm.com/star/)

ELM stands for Dr. Ernest L. Martin, whose book on “The Star of Bethlehem, The Star that Astonished the World,” reveals how computer scientists, using the information in Rev.12:1 and Biblical accounts of the Nativity, were able to not only display the various conjunctions of Jupiter and Venus in the Constellation of Leo the Lion, but determined the day on which Jesus was born which was September 11, BC 3 on the Julian Calendar and New Year’s Day, Tishri One of BC 2 on the Hebrew Calendar. A Hebrew Calendar shows the civil year may begin on any one of 19 days from Sep.5 to Oct.4.

My website www.lastday.net, (http://www.lastday.net,) Biblical Month and God’s Timing, shows Jesus was born in BC 2 to fulfill part of Daniel’s prophecy of 69 “Prophetic” sets of seven. He died (5) days “after” the last day of 68 “Calendar” sets of seven to fulfill Dan.9:26a. He revealed in Luke 19:44 and Luke 21:22-24 that Dan.9:26b would be fulfilled with “desolations” that bridge AD 70 and the end of time. See Dan.9:24-26 for the prophecy of 69 Sevens.

“When Jesus came near to Jerusalem He beheld the city and wept over it, saying, `If you only knew the Day, even THIS DAY, the things that should bring you peace---but now they are hidden from your eyes.’” Luke 19:42.

THIS DAY was Palm Sunday. It was the 173,859th day since BC 445 because exactly 68 Calendar sets of seven separated Nisan 30 of that year and the 2nd Sunday of Nisan in AD 32. God chose 68 sets of seven because that is the only number which, by multiplying it x7x365¼ days, produced a whole number of 24-hour days---with the final day being Palm Sunday! Based on 69x7x360 days, the final day of 69 Prophetic sets of seven was the 5th Sunday of that same month in AD 32. He died “after” being hailed as Messiah.

This means Jesus’ death on Nisan 14 was 16 days before the 69th Anniversary of the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Palm Sunday, Nisan 9, was the last day of the 68th set of Calendar years. Nisan 30 was the final (173,880th) day of 69 Prophetic sets of 7 based on 7x360 days while Nisan 9, Palm Sunday, was the final (173,859th) day of 68 sets of Calendar years. The Prophetic days were not “cut short” but Palm Sunday ended the countdown 3 weeks early because it was the final day of 68 sets of Calendar years.

The Time of Jesus’ Visitation began three weeks shy of the final day of the 69th Prophetic Seven. The Jews did not know the “appointed time of their visitation” which included His death on Passover. Luke 19:44. Nisan 14 occurred only once every 7 years on a Friday! The week of Nisan 9-14 fulfilled Zech.9:9; Lev.23:5; Dan.9:26a; preserved the original anniversary date to rebuild Jerusalem’s walls and ended the time of visitation on the “Day of Preparation”. Harmony of the Gospels, Robert L.Thomas, Stanley N. Gundry, P.320.

Jesus distinguished the appointed “time” for His death from THIS DAY (Palm Sunday) because Daniel prophesied Messiah would be “cut off (5 days) after” THIS DAY on which He was hailed King of the Jews. Jesus predicted a day coming when they will truly hail Him as King, saying, “Blessed is He that comes in the Lord’s Name”. Matt.23:39.

Jesus died in AD 32. Based on 69 sets of 2520-day countdowns, Passover fell on Friday, Nisan 14, only in BC 4, AD 4,11,18,25 and 32. Jesus was 33½ years old in the spring of AD 32. I have shown 63 of 68 sets of 7 spanned 441 years from the spring (Nisan 30) of 445 to the spring of BC 4 (Nisan 30). Then 441+35 (5 more sets) = 476 (63+5=68 sets) that embrace 69 Prophetic sets within 68 Calendar sets. The final day of these 68 sets of seven (476 years; 445-1+32) was Palm Sunday, exactly 3 weeks before the 69th Anniversary of the decree of Neh.2:1, Nisan, 445, fulfilled 483 Prophetic sets (69x7) of 2520 days (7x360).

At Christmas time hundreds of Planetariums world-wide show the birthday of Jesus was 9/11 of BC 3 on a Julian calendar; the first day of Israel’s New Year which was Tishri 1 of BC 2 on a Hebrew calendar. From Tishri 1 of BC 445 to Tishri 1 in AD 31 when Jesus was 33, it was 475 years (445-1+31=475). That allowed exactly 25 cycles of 19-year changes (25x19=475) on the Hebrew calendar. The full time was 476 years (68 sets of seven). The extra year was made up of about 215 days from His birthday in AD 31 to His death on Nisan 14 in AD.32; plus about 150 days from Nisan 14, BC 445 to New Year's day, Tishri 1 in BC 445. Jesus came in the Fulness of Time. . . to the exact day. Gal.4:4.

See the following sources recommended by the Griffith Observatory.
Dr. Ernest L. Martin is author of The Star That Astonished the World, the best reference for information on the star and especially the history of the events surrounding it. Order from: Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, PO Box 25000, Portland, OR 97225-5000. His web site also contains a short web animation at www.askelm.com/video/real/xmas (http://www.askelm.com/video/real/xmas)

Susan Carrol's excellent summary of the history and astronomy, titled THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM: AN ASTRONOMICAL AND HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, is at http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm

An excellent article by an astronomer who focuses on the astronomy of the Star is The Star of Bethlehem at http://www.hillsdale.edu/imprimis/1996/Dec96Imprimis.pdf by Craig Chester, President of the Monterey Institute for Research in Astronomy.

Article on the Star published in the Planetarian, the quarterly journal of the International Planetarium Society, Yet Another Eclipse for Herod by John Pratt in 1990.
Submitted by Mel Miller

Dr. Bob
12-12-2005, 04:58 PM
Thanks for sharing. There is so much wrong in the post but it should make good discussion.

Start with Herod's ordering the babies slain. We all know it. Sometime well after Jesus' birth (bible calls him a teknon-child, not a brephos-nursing baby).

Article contends Jesus born on New Years Day 3/2 BC.

Herod died in 4 BC.

Do the math.

Like I said, should be fun discussing this.

Ransom
12-12-2005, 05:20 PM
Is there any reason to accept the assumption that the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus?

webdog
12-12-2005, 09:45 PM
The Bible mentions angels as "stars", also. By the way the "star went before them" would suggest it moved. It is possible it could have been an angel or a comet besides a "star".

Helen
12-13-2005, 01:30 AM
Dr. Ernest L. Martin and Craig Chester are both exactly correct about the date of Herod's death and if you read Chester's account in the link given above you will see why it could not possibly have been in 4 BC.

Barry's research agrees exactly with Chester's regarding what happened and why. The only disagreement the two men seem to have is the identity of the 'wise men'. Chester feels they were the Magi and Barry goes with Matthew's original identification of Magoi, an entirely different group of people.

But they are right on target with each other, both as accomplished astronomers, regarding what the wise men saw and what it meant to them and thus, the exact time of Jesus birth.

As I have linked before, Barry's work on this is here:
http://www.setterfield.org/star.htm

John of Japan
12-13-2005, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Ransom:
Is there any reason to accept the assumption that the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus? No reason whatsoever. Conjunctions of the planets don't move and hover. Only miraculous stars do.

Helen
12-13-2005, 03:00 AM
PLEAASE read the articles. The exact house was probably marked by the Shekinah glory cloud, but the star that moved ahead of the wise men was Jupiter. Please don't negate what you have not read, OK?

Hope of Glory
12-13-2005, 03:35 AM
I have never seen a single secular historian claim that Herod died at any time other than 4 BC. (I'm sure there are some, but not many.) All of the historical evidence points to 4 BC. Now, I've seen some Biblical archaeologists try to claim that Herod died in 1 BC. I can only assume as to why. (My main assumption is so that history is closer to their preconceived theological notions, or perhaps to distance themselves from secular historians.)

However, since planets are mentioned in the Bible, and they were common knowledge from at least 600 BC, I agree that it was not a planet.

Dr. Bob
12-13-2005, 03:54 AM
Appreciate Barry's work (read it all and disagree with it) and Helen's defense (as a good wife), but 4 BCE is the historically proven and accepted date of Herod's death. Lunar eclipse, feast within a few weeks, even a proven comet that was a TRUE heavenly phenomenon.

Also fits that the census was OVER by 3 BCE so a late date for Jesus birth does not relate.

Birth of Jesus is 1-2 years previous to 4 BCE.

And Jupiter? Right. Wise men never had seen anything like THAT before. It MUST be a sign!

Except EVERY year . . .

Just don't buy a bit of what your selling.

Helen
12-13-2005, 11:56 AM
HERE is why Herod could not have died in 4 BC, from http://www.hillsdale.edu/imprimis/1996/Dec96Imprimis.pdf

This is the work of a professional and respected astronomer using his own work and the work of a noted and accepted expert in the field!

This has NOTHING to do with my support of my husband but with historical FACT!

________

A major key to the chronology is the date of
the death of Herod the Great, the father
of another Herod–Herod Antipas, who
executed John the Baptist and who ruled
at the time of the Crucifixion. Herod the Great
was alive when the Star of Bethlehem appeared,
and the commonly quoted date for his death is 4
B.C. Thus dates of 7 B.C. through 4 B.C. are
often given for the birth of Jesus. The political
events of this period are best known from the
writings of Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian who lived from 37 A.D. to about 95 A.D. His testimony has always been considered vital in determining these dates. But the accounts of Josephus and the entire history of this period have been reassessed recently, with important new results, by Ernest Martin, whose book, The Star that Astonished the World (ASK Publications, 1991), has become the authoritative source on the subject.
According to Josephus, on the night of a lunar
eclipse Herod executed two rabbis. They were
accused of inciting some young men to climb up
on the wall and tear down the golden eagle
that the king had ordered placed on the gate to the Temple in Jerusalem. This eagle was, of course, an abomination to the Jews because it was a graven image. Soon after this incident, Herod died and was buried. One of his sons inherited his throne shortly before Passover was celebrated.
It was long believed that the lunar eclipse in
question occurred on March 13 in 4 B.C. But this
was only a partial eclipse (40 percent total) and
fairly hard to detect. And it occurred only 29 days before Passover. Here is what would have had to happen in those 29 days:
Herod was sick at the time of the execution of
the rabbis, and his condition worsened almost
immediately. He was treated for a time by his
physicians, to no avail. He then decided to pack up the royal household and move to Jericho to take the baths. He tried the baths unsuccessfully for some days and then returned to Jerusalem. Believing that he soon would die, Herod came up with a diabolical plan to insure that all of Israel would mourn his death, in spite of his unpopularity. He commanded the leading men from around the country to come to Jerusalem; there he imprisoned them in the Hippodrome and ordered the army to execute them as soon as he was dead. Israel would indeed mourn, he vowed. (Fortunately, the order was not carried out.)
In the meantime, word arrived from Rome that Herod finally had the Emperor’s permission
to execute his rebellious son Antipater, and he
promptly complied. Five days later Herod died,
but not before decreeing that his was to be the
largest funeral ever held in the history of the
world. His body was embalmed. The army was
assembled to carry his body in the funeral procession to a burial site some 25 miles away. The soldiers walked in bare feet, as was required
when in mourning, traveling one mile a day. A
legate from Rome, where word of Herod’s death
had been received, arrived to protect the royal
treasury. Finally, Herod’s son Archelaus was
crowned king and had time to issue a few decrees
prior to the celebration of Passover. The 29 days between the eclipse of 4 B.C. and the following Passover simply did not allow enough time for all of this to have happened. A minimum of ten weeks would have been required. But on January 10, 1 B.C., there was a total lunar eclipse visible in Palestine, and it occurred twelve and a half weeks before Passover. As Martin points out, there are other compelling reasons to regard 1 B.C. as the true date of Herod’s death. For example, the War of Varus, known to have followed Herod’s death, can be redated to 1 B.C., where it fits the other known
facts perfectly. As a clincher, it has recently been discovered that Josephus himself dated Herod’s death to 1 B.C.; a sixteenth century copyist’s error is responsible for the incorrect date, which has been propagated to modern
editions of Josephus.

-----------

Pastor Bob, it doesn't matter whether or not you agree, but that is what happened. That is the historical fact.

I also doubt sincerely that you have read ALL of Barry's work, as you state. I have not even done that! Your statement that it was 'just Jupiter' indicates that you either have not read the material or that you have purposely misrepresented it.

Helen
12-13-2005, 12:26 PM
Here is Barry's shorter version:

The Census order was given by Augustus in 8 BC, but it was implemented province by province. Provincial Italy was taxed in 8/7 BC. Rome itself was taxed in 7/6 BC. As for the province of Judea, Luke records that it was taxed when 'Cyrenius was first Governor of Syria.' Senator P. Sulpicius Quirinius, otherwise known as Cyrenius, was Governor of Syria twice. As Luke states, it was on the first occasion that the world census occurred. Quirinius was Legate (Governor) to Syria an that first occasion for 5 years during the Homonadensian War. He then become Advisor to Gaius Caesar in I BC. Additionally, the Christian historian Tertullian records that the Judean census took place when Sentius Saturninus was Proconsul to Syria, attending to the day to day running of the province, which included Judea. He left early in 2 BC to be replaced by Quinctillius Varus, about a year before the death of Herod, who was the king of Judea. These facts indicate that the census acted on by Joseph and Mary had been completed by late in 3 BC. This is confirmed by the date of Herod's death. According to Matthew, Herod ordered the slaughter of all children two years old and under, according to the time the Star first appeared to the Wise Men. Therefore, if we back-track two years from the date of Herod's death, this will give the latest possible date for the first appearance of the Star and an approximate date for the birth of the Christ-Child.



Josephus records that Herod died shortly after an eclipse of the Moon seen at Jericho, and sometime before the Feast of Passover. It is this point which has caused much historical. confusion, as we have to select between four Lunar eclipses. There is one key piece of evidence which is often overlooked. The Jewish historian Josephus, records that there was a Jewish holiday celebrating Herod's death on 2nd day of the month Shebat. Significantly, this date is in accord with only one of those 4 eclipses, namely the one an 9th Jan, 1 BC. The 2nd Shebat date fell just 15 days after that eclipse. This means that Herod died 24th January I BC. Consequently, the Christmas star must have appeared throughout 3 and 2 BC. This accords with the census completed by late 3 BC.


as far as the star of Bethlehem being a comet:

As we examine Matthew, it becomes apparent that the account requires the star to appear in the eastern sky, move across the starry background, and go before the Magoi to Judea. Only comets, planets, or groupings of planets behave this way. Comets can travel through the background stars at the rate of 1 or 2 degrees per day. They may be visible to the naked eye for 100 days or so. Now a journey to Judea from Persia would take the Wise Men about 6 weeks. Comets would thus be visible long enough for the journey itself. But none last 2 years, and no comets were recorded for the prime dates of 3 and 2 BC. Halley's comet flared in the skies in 11 BC. Another comet swept across the heavens in 4 BC. But both of these were too early. So comets fade as a possibility for the Star.



This leaves the option of planets. When we examine the night sky with planets in mind, a series of amazing celestial events occurred during this time. On the 1st August 3 BC the drama began to unfold with Jupiter rising in the first rays of dawn. On the 13 August Venus and Jupiter stood very close together in the sunrise. On the 18th, Mercury came out of the solar glare, and on September 1st, Mercury and Venus stood 1/3rd degree apart in the constellation of Leo.



These were dramatic events. The astronomers who were based at the Sippar Institute would see an astrological significance in these signs. Essentially, Jupiter, the King planet, had left the Sun, the Father of the Gods, to be conjoined with Venus, the Virgin Mother in the constellation of Leo, which is the symbol for the tribe of Judah in Israel.



Furthermore, Mercury, the Messenger of the Gods, had come from the Sun's presence to stand with Venus the virgin mother in the rays of the dawn.



Mythology to us, perhaps, but signs in the heavens to them, and God speaks to people in the language they understand.



On 14th September 3 BC and 17th February and 8th May in 2 BC, Jupiter the King planet stood next to Regulus the brightest star in Leo, which also represented Royalty. Then came a climax to the display. On June 17th 2 BC, Venus and Jupiter, the two brightest planets in the Solar System, appeared to collide. They stood an Incredible 1/50th degree apart and seemed to fuse into one immense ball of Light. This was an unprecedented event. But that was not all. On 27th August in 2 BC there was a grand meeting of the planets In Virgo. Jupiter and Mars were only 1/7th degree apart and close at hand were Mercury and Venus standing together in the glare of the rising sun.



This dramatic sequence of events ending in Virgo qualified for the Star spoken of by the Zend Avesta. But then Jupiter left the other planets in the dawn, and started to move to the West. This was the sign the Magoi were waiting for. Jupiter the key player in the Christmas star sequence was leading them towards Judea. And so they set out. From that moment in Mid-November, Jupiter the King planet actually went before them in the sky towards Judea. Six weeks later, as the Magoi checked the pre-dawn sky, Jupiter was on the Meridian due south of Jerusalem. It would appear directly over Bethlehem 65 degrees above the southern horizon.



And just at that time, the final event occurred. Jupiter had reached its furthest point westward, and no longer moved against the background store. It actually 'stood over' where the young Child was. Incredibly, on that same day, the Sun was at its furthest point south for the year, and "stood still" in the heavens (for that is what the word 'solstice' means). Jupiter was again in the constellation Virgo,as the Zend Avesta predicted, when this occurred on 25th December in 2 BC. It was a unique sequence of events that had landed the Magoi at Bethlehem.

prophecynut
12-13-2005, 02:52 PM
Ransom
Is there any reason to accept the assumption that the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus?Absoutely no reason to accept any planetary conjunction as the Star of Bethlehem, the planets are separate from one another. It has to be a single star not a group of them together.

webdog
The Bible mentions angels as "stars", also. By the way the "star went before them" would suggest it moved.Right on! A heavenly host of angels above Jerusalem would appear as a single star to the Magi in the east. This star seen by the Magi is the same star that directed them to the "house" in Jerusalem. Bethlehem is south of Jerusalem, the star had to travel from north to south contrary to normal stars that travel east to west. So much for the Astrology experts and their Jupiter theory.

Johnv
12-13-2005, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Ransom:
Is there any reason to accept the assumption that the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus? It makes sense. The astrologers of the day made no distinction between planets and stars (they didn't even know what a planet was). All points of light in the sky were stars to them. Also, this conjunction would have appeared to them as one point of light.

Further, Jupiter is the King Star, and I believe Venus was considered the star of fertility or something liek that. A conjunction of Jupiter would have been understood by astologers and mystics to be a sign of the birth of a king.

Some will surmise that the star was a supernova. unlikely, because Herod was unable to identify the star or its meaning. S supernova would have been seen by all. Yet the Star of Bethlehem only appears to have caught the attention of those who were trained to interpret astrological events. Further, the Chinese at that time were already keeping accurate records of celestial events, and they have no record of supernovas during this time.

Some will surmise that the star was a comet. But comets were harbingers of doom and gloom, not of good news. They would not have been understood to be a sign of the birth of a king.

Lastly, the planetary conjunction would have moved across the sky in the direction that the wise men would have travelled, leading them to Bethlehem as described in Luke's account, and even stopping in a position relative to being over bethlehem from the view of a westward traveller.
Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
since planets are mentioned in the Bible, and they were common knowledge from at least 600 BC, I agree that it was not a planet. Sorry, that's just not so.

2 Kings is the only place that interprets a phrase as "planet". The Hebrew word here referrs to a constellation or an astrological sign. It does not refer to a planet as we know it.

Helen
12-13-2005, 03:05 PM
When the planets were so close together from the earth's perspective, they appeared to be one star. That is the first thing.

And perhaps you missed this:
Six weeks later, as the Magoi checked the pre-dawn sky, Jupiter was on the Meridian due south of Jerusalem. It would appear directly over Bethlehem 65 degrees above the southern horizon.

"We have seen His star..." is not a reference to angels, but to a astronomical body.

prophecynut
12-13-2005, 05:11 PM
Sorry, too late and the wrong direction for your hypothesis.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

"Finally, only five days after Antipater's execution, Herod died at Jericho in the spring of 4 B.C." End of case.

prophecynut
12-13-2005, 05:32 PM
The NIV Study Bible has this foot note on Mt. 2:2 - "Or star when it rose. Compare to Num. 24:17; 2 Pet. 2:19 and Rev. 22:16. Where did the NIV translators get this, is there another version with the same wording?

Today's English Version 2:2
"We saw his star when it came up in the east, and we have come to worship him."

Jerusalem Bible
"We saw his star as it rose and have come to do him homage."

New English Bible
"We observed the rising of his star, and we have come to pay him homage."

Helen
12-13-2005, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by prophecynut:
Sorry, too late and the wrong direction for your hypothesis.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

"Finally, only five days after Antipater's execution, Herod died at Jericho in the spring of 4 B.C." End of case. obviously any other research is null and void! If the encyclopedia says something, that is it...forever!

Helen
12-13-2005, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by prophecynut:
The NIV Study Bible has this foot note on Mt. 2:2 - "Or star when it rose. Compare to Num. 24:17; 2 Pet. 2:19 and Rev. 22:16. Where did the NIV translators get this, is there another version with the same wording?

Today's English Version 2:2
"We saw his star when it came up in the east, and we have come to worship him."

Jerusalem Bible
"We saw his star as it rose and have come to do him homage."

New English Bible
"We observed the rising of his star, and we have come to pay him homage." Here is from the addendum to Barry's article, which may be of help here:


_________


In the Authorized Version, the translation of Matthew 2:2 is not strictly correct. It translates the statement of the Wise Men as "We have seen His Star in the East". In the original Greek "in the east" is in fact "En te anatole" which is the Greek singular. However, elsewhere "the east" is represented by "anatolai", the Greek plural. Dr. Werner Keller, the German archaeologist writes on page 335 of "The Bible As History" (Hodder and Stoughton, 1969) the following comment::


"The singular form "anatole" has quite a special astronomical significance, in that it implies the observation of the early rising of the star, the so-called heliacal rising. The translators of the Authorised Version could not have known this. When 'en te anatole' is translated properly Matt.2:2 reads as follows: 'We have seen his star appear in the first rays of the dawn.' That would correspond exactly with the astronomical facts."

The heliacal rising of a prominent star was a defined astronomical phenomenon. The Egyptians noted it, as did other civilizations in the Fertile Crescent and elsewhere. The conclusion is that a very specific 'star' was involved in the heliacal rising.

prophecynut
12-13-2005, 10:27 PM
In the original Greek "in the east" is in fact "En te anatole" which is the Greek singular. However, elsewhere "the east" is represented by "anatolai", the Greek plural.In the nine times "east" appears in the NT the Greek anatole is used, never anatolai - if there is such a Greek word.

"anatole" - 1) a rising (of the sun and stars)
2) the east (the direction of the sun's rising)

Matthew identified the Magi in verse one as coming from the east, probably from Persia or Mesopotamia. As strangers in Jerusalem the Magi would of first introduced themselves and then state their reason for coming to Jerusalem, which was to look for the king of the Jews. To state again they were from the east in their question is unlikely. Matthew knew they were from the east, the Magi were aware that the Jews knew who they were. Translating anatole as "east" in the second verse is awkward and repetitious. Makes more sense to translate it "a rising" as the Jerusalem Bible and New English Bible have done.

JB
After Jesus had been born at Bethlehem in Judaea during the reign of King Herod, some wise men came to Jerusalem from the east. "Where is the infant king of the Jews?" they asked "We saw his star as it rose and have come to do him homage."

NEB
Jesus was born a Bethlehem in Judaea during the reign of Herod. After his birth astrologers from the east arrived in Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the child who is born to be king of the Jews? We observed the rising of his star, and we have come to pay him homage.'

Translators of the NIV and other versions probably chose "east" instead of "rising" because planetary stars do not rise from west to the east. With the star being the Shekinah glory of God or a group of angels ascending to heaven, it could easily rise in the western sky from the east.

Ransom
12-13-2005, 11:05 PM
Johnv said:

It makes sense. The astrologers of the day made no distinction between planets and stars (they didn't even know what a planet was).

They might not have known what it was, but they were well aware that there were a half-dozen or so lights in the sky that moved around relative to the others. The word planet comes from an ancient Greek word meaning "wanderer."

All points of light in the sky were stars to them. Also, this conjunction would have appeared to them as one point of light.

But if they were paying such close attention, they would obviously have known that it was, in fact, two lights in close proximity to each other. If they knew it was a planetary conjunction, why wouldn't the Bible say it was one?

Moreover, conjunctions of Jupiter and Venus aren't particularly rare. They passed closer together on May 17, 2000 than they did in 2 BC. I don't recall any miraculous births happening 5 years ago, do you?

Lastly, the planetary conjunction would have moved across the sky in the direction that the wise men would have travelled, leading them to Bethlehem as described in Luke's account, and even stopping in a position relative to being over bethlehem from the view of a westward traveller.

The Bible says more than that: it pointed out the specific house in which the holy family were staying, not merely the general direction of Bethlehem.

Hope of Glory
12-13-2005, 11:38 PM
The heliacal rising of a prominent star was a defined astronomical phenomenon. The Egyptians noted it, as did other civilizations in the Fertile Crescent and elsewhere. The conclusion is that a very specific 'star' was involved in the heliacal rising. Hmmm... The morning star, eh? Interesting.

Since we have written records from multiple civilizations that they knew about planets since at least the 600's BC (about the same time as the passage in 2 Kings was written). So, based on this, you would have to assume that the magi were ignorant of the rest of the world to assume that they knew nothing about planets.

Personally, I don't think they were ignorant.

Helen
12-14-2005, 01:29 AM
They weren't ignorant. That is why they were looking for something in the first place and when they saw this incredible conjunction and this series of events which had never happened before and will never happen again, they understood what it meant. They were not called 'wise men' for nothing.

Did others see it? I'm sure they did. Did others follow the star? No, they did not.

Just like today. People all see the same creation. Most attribute it to evolution, in direct contradiction to both God's Word as well as common sense. Few follow. Men have not changed.

prophecynut
12-14-2005, 01:51 AM
Helen
they saw this incredible conjunction and this series of events which had never happened before and will never happen again, - A planetary conjunction occurs when two or more planets appear to be very close together in the night sky as seen from Earth. Conjunctions between Venus and Jupiter are fairly common, occurring as often as three times a year.

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/venus_jupiter_upcoming_conjunction.html

Hope of Glory
12-14-2005, 01:59 AM
Let's see, the world knew about planets at least as early as the 600's BC. 2 Kings talks about planets, as opposed to stars. The wise men came from the East, where they were pretty big into astronomy. Yet, the wise men didn't know enough to call them planets. Hmmm...

Dr. Bob
12-14-2005, 02:01 AM
Helen - not getting personal but truly hate to be called a liar. You linked Barry's article and I read every word. Every word, as I said.

In my opinion he is wrong. On a number of levels, but historically for certain. 99.99% state that Herod died in 4 BCE. He disagrees with that and has elaborately painted a different picture. His privilege. He would say I (and about everyone else) am wrong.

One of us is.

Helen
12-14-2005, 02:18 AM
He hasn't 'elaborately' painted any picture. He has presented the data. Major difference.

A number of professional astronomers and historians are in agreement, the other one linked here for example. He is not alone.

Research continues and sometimes old beliefs die hard. But when new information comes to light, it is foolish not to check it out.

You have given no specifics that you disagree with. Just that you disagree.

You said you read 'all' of Barry's work. Not 'all' of the article. I have not even read all his work!

In addition, if you did read all the star article then you did deliberately misrepresent what he said about Jupiter.

Now, what else do you disagree with?

Prophecy nut, did you not read what I said? Read it again, carefully! "this incredible conjunction and this series of events which had never happened before and will never happen again,"

This was not just any conjunction. This was a series of conjunction events that never happened before and will not happen again. The wise men saw, and knew that.

Hope of Glory, as Barry explains early on in the article:

As we begin this search, we note that the word "star" had a variety of meanings then. It could mean anything that blazed, shone or moved across the sky. It could mean an aurora, the sun, moon, or a star. It may mean any strange light in the sky - a bolt of lightning, an oddly illuminated cloud, a planet, or grouping of several planets.

Yes, the 'stars' were subdivided into types, one of them being the 'wanderers', or what we recognize as planets. But they were all grouped under the category of stars.

It would be so lovely if some of you folks actually read and paid attention to what you were reading before you started critiquing it!

Ransom
12-14-2005, 10:32 AM
Helen said:

obviously any other research is null and void! If the encyclopedia says something, that is it...forever!

As a general rule, when your view is the minority one, there's probably a good reason.

webdog
12-14-2005, 11:46 AM
I think the problem with trying to figure out what exactly the star was "scientifically" is we are taking away from the power of God to do as He wishes. It can't be proven scientifically how Lazarus was raised from the dead. Why does the star have to have a scientific explanation? Why can't God have used an angel, or put a special "star" in the sky for His purposes?

Mel Miller
12-14-2005, 11:48 AM
Friends,

The date of Christ's birth, if it was indeed 9/11 of BC 3, fits perfectly with the Lev.23:5 requirement and Daniel's 69 sets of 7 that
Passover occurred on Friday, Nisan 14, in BC 4, AD 4, 11, 18, 25 and 32. From BC 445 to AD 32,
there were 68 sets of solar 7's during which
69 sets of Biblical 7's were totally fulfilled
with Passover occurring 69 times on a Friday!

I have shown, at www.lastday.net, (http://www.lastday.net,) that if the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem occurred in BC 445, the only possible date for the crucifixion was that of Nisan 14, AD 32 when Jesus was 33 1/2 years of age.

Counting backward from that date in AD 32, the birth of Jesus occurred in the Fall of BC 2 on the Hebrew calendar. I determined this long before I learned of the 9/11 date from the Griffith Observatory. This computation required the fulfillment of each set of 7 within the confines of 2520 (7x360) days. Amazingly, the Biblical countdown of 69 sets of 7 was also fulfilled within 68 sets of 7x365 1/4 days.

Within the countdown of Biblical 7's, Passover
occurred on a Friday only once every 7 years!!
This is shown in my chapters on Daniel, God's
Timing and Biblical Month.

The 64th to 68th sets of solar 7's embraced the
final five sets of Biblical 7's that climaxed with Passover for the 69th time on Nisan 14, a Friday, between BC 445 and AD 32 when Jesus was 33 1/2. This means He was born a year and half
before Passover of AD 1 when Herod died at the only TOTAL eclipse from BC 4 to Jan.10, BC 1. See P.121 of The Star that Astonished the World by Ernest L. Martin; ASK Publications.

The Griffith Observatory, and many planetariums,
annually show the stellar evidence for the birth of Jesus on the first day of the Hebrew New Year of BC 2 or 9/11 of BC 3 on a Julian calendar.
Mel Miller

Helen
12-14-2005, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Ransom:
Helen said:

obviously any other research is null and void! If the encyclopedia says something, that is it...forever!

As a general rule, when your view is the minority one, there's probably a good reason. That sounds like a Roman Catholic argument to me! :D

If that were true

1. We would all be Roman Catholic
2. We would all be long-agers
3. We would all be evolutionists
4. We would all be geocentrists
5. We would all believe the universe was made up of shells
6. etc. etc. etc.

I prefer looking at the data. There is a quote on the front page of my husband's website which I think best describes our approach:

It is never good science to ignore anomalous data or to eliminate a conclusion because of some presupposition. Sir Henry Dale, one-time President of the Royal Society of London, made an important comment in his retirement speech: "Science should not tolerate any lapse of precision, or neglect any anomaly, but give Nature's answers to the world humbly and with courage." To do so may not place one in the mainstream of modern science, but at least we will be searching for truth and moving ahead rather than maintaining the scientific status quo.--Barry Setterfield, March 7, 2002

We KNOW that the 4 BC date was primarily a miscopy of one of the Josephus mss in the Middle Ages. We KNOW what happened astronomically. We KNOW that three old men on camels were not going to frighten Jerusalem or cause Herod to become so disturbed.

WHAT IS WRONG with the facts? What is wrong with taking a look at what actually happened instead of following the pretty fairy tale that has hung around all these years? What is wrong with letting both the Bible and creation itself tell us what happened?

Why the neuroses about this, people?

Helen
12-14-2005, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by webdog:
I think the problem with trying to figure out what exactly the star was "scientifically" is we are taking away from the power of God to do as He wishes. It can't be proven scientifically how Lazarus was raised from the dead. Why does the star have to have a scientific explanation? Why can't God have used an angel, or put a special "star" in the sky for His purposes? Webdog, there does not HAVE to be a scientific explanation for what happened, but when we go back and explore a little, there is one. We do think it was the miraculous Shekinah Glory Cloud which stood over the exact house. But what caught the attention of the Magoi, who were LOOKING for that sign at that time, and what they followed, was something we can see by using our computers now to run time backwards astronomically and seeing what was going on in the sky at that time, if anything. As it turns out, the events they saw were unique in the history of the earth and very meaningful to people who studied the stars, which they did.

God speaks to each of us in our own language. Daniel had been head astrology/astronomer/wise man for many years in their courts. He carried with him the prophecies that caused them to be watching the sky at that particular time.

And then God did what He had told Daniel He would do -- there was a sign in the heavens. The Magoi recognized it, followed, and found Christ.

That's a wonderful, wonderful thing, and something we should be rejoicing over to know what happened, and not fighting over and running those who are searching down.

Life from death, like Lazarus, we KNOW is a miracle. No one questions that that I know of. But when we are told specifically about signs, then we look for them, do we not?

Johnv
12-14-2005, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Ransom:
They might not have known what it was, but they were well aware that there were a half-dozen or so lights in the sky that moved around relative to the others.
Yes, and they called them "stars", in the same manner that they called stars, nebulae, and galaxies "stars".
The word planet comes from an ancient Greek word meaning "wanderer."
Yes it is. But the word in the scriptures (translated "planet" in the KJV) does not mean "wanderer". It referrs to a constellation.
But if they were paying such close attention, they would obviously have known that it was, in fact, two lights in close proximity to each other. If they knew it was a planetary conjunction, why wouldn't the Bible say it was one?
You're backwards analyzing using contemporary comprehension. That line of thinking is unreasonable. They called plants stars, and called planetary conjunctions stars. Period.
Moreover, conjunctions of Jupiter and Venus aren't particularly rare.
No, they're not. Most are not. But a conjunction of this magnitide, where Jupter is practically on top of Venus, is rare.
They passed closer together on May 17, 2000 than they did in 2 BC. I don't recall any miraculous births happening 5 years ago, do you?
You're presuming that a messianic birth should be expected every time the conjunction occurrs. That's ridiculous. There have been many comets, supernovas, etc, as well, that have also been claimed to be the star of bethlehem, but I don't recall any messianic births since then either, which really makes your point pointless.
The Bible says more than that: it pointed out the specific house in which the holy family were staying, not merely the general direction of Bethlehem. It does not "point out the specific house". It simply says the star stop over the house. In order for it to have pointed out just the one specific house, then it sould have had to be low enough to remove any doubt of the house next door being the one. If that were the case, then it would not have been called a star. No, for them to refer to it as a star, the star of bethlehem would have been among the canopy of the night sky to be a star.

ituttut
12-14-2005, 02:48 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mel Miller:
JESUS’ BIRTHDAY WAS ISRAEL’S NEW YEAR’S DAY IN BC 3-2.
;) Published in "Senior Experience", First Baptist
Church of Norfolk, Va. Nov/Dec.05

The “Star of Bethlehem” does not tell us when Jesus was born but told the Wise Men where the child would be found.

Was about two years afterwards factored in, as this is when the Wise Men came?


THIS DAY was Palm Sunday.

Scripture shows otherwise. This day was Palm Friday

The Time of Jesus’ Visitation began three weeks shy of the final day of the 69th Prophetic Seven. The Jews did not know the “appointed time of their visitation” which included His death on Passover. Luke 19:44. Nisan 14 occurred only once every 7 years on a Friday!

Scripture refutes Nisan 14 occurred only once every 7 years. Passover was observed every year on the 14th.

Why does the world believe what the Catholic church brought into Christianity, that of the fallacy of Easter, and a Birthday that God did not intend for us to correctly know? A Friday crucifixion is not so. Jesus had to be in the earth for three full nights and days. We buy into the Catholic and world belief when we believe the lie of Friday Passover. It will be “Lent” for the Baptist church not too many years hence.[qb] Christian faith, ituttut

Helen
12-14-2005, 03:12 PM
They passed closer together on May 17, 2000 than they did in 2 BC. I don't recall any miraculous births happening 5 years ago, do you?

from Barry: Oh no they did not! As an astronomer, I watched the conjunction on May 17, 2000. I remember thinking, 'This is not nearly as close as it was in 2 BC.' In 2000, the planets were actually several diameters of the moon apart; that is, over 1 degree apart. In 2 BC, the planets were less than 1/50 of a degree apart. In other words, they were so close that they fused into one ball of light as viewed from the earth, with over twice the brilliance of Venus.

Mel Miller
12-14-2005, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by ituttut:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mel Miller:
[qb] JESUS’ BIRTHDAY WAS ISRAEL’S NEW YEAR’S DAY IN BC 3-2.
;) Published in "Senior Experience", First Baptist
Church of Norfolk, Va. Nov/Dec.05

The “Star of Bethlehem” does not tell us when Jesus was born but told the Wise Men where the child would be found.

Was about two years afterwards factored in, as this is when the Wise Men came?


THIS DAY was Palm Sunday.

Scripture shows otherwise. This day was Palm Friday

The Time of Jesus’ Visitation began three weeks shy of the final day of the 69th Prophetic Seven. The Jews did not know the “appointed time of their visitation” which included His death on Passover. Luke 19:44. Nisan 14 occurred only once every 7 years on a Friday!

Scripture refutes Nisan 14 occurred only once every 7 years. Passover was observed every year on the 14th.

Why does the world believe what the Catholic church brought into Christianity, that of the fallacy of Easter, and a Birthday that God did not intend for us to correctly know? A Friday crucifixion is not so. Jesus had to be in the earth for three full nights and days. We buy into the Catholic and world belief when we believe the lie of Friday Passover. It will be “Lent” for the Baptist church not too many years hence. Christian faith, ituttut

Mel Miller
12-14-2005, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Mel Miller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
Originally posted by Mel Miller:
[qb] JESUS’ BIRTHDAY WAS ISRAEL’S NEW YEAR’S DAY IN BC 3-2.
;) Published in "Senior Experience", First Baptist
Church of Norfolk, Va. Nov/Dec.05

The “Star of Bethlehem” does not tell us when Jesus was born but told the Wise Men where the child would be found.

Was about two years afterwards factored in, as this is when the Wise Men came?


THIS DAY was Palm Sunday.

Scripture shows otherwise. This day was Palm Friday

The Time of Jesus’ Visitation began three weeks shy of the final day of the 69th Prophetic Seven. The Jews did not know the “appointed time of their visitation” which included His death on Passover. Luke 19:44. Nisan 14 occurred only once every 7 years on a Friday!

Scripture refutes Nisan 14 occurred only once every 7 years. Passover was observed every year on the 14th.

Why does the world believe what the Catholic church brought into Christianity, that of the fallacy of Easter, and a Birthday that God did not intend for us to correctly know? A Friday crucifixion is not so. Jesus had to be in the earth for three full nights and days. We buy into the Catholic and world belief when we believe the lie of Friday Passover. It will be “Lent” for the Baptist church not too many years hence. Christian faith, ituttut </font>

Mel Miller
12-14-2005, 04:31 PM
ITUTTUT,

Respectfully, I did not dispute that Nisan 14
was "always the date for Passover".

My point was that, based on the fact that
68 sets of solar Sevens from BC 445 to AD 32 were fulfilled just 21 days short of 69 sets
of Biblical Sevens, and that, during those 69
sets of sevens, Passover occurred 69 times on
a Friday, which was "the day of preparation," Christ was born a year and half before Herod
died near the TOTAL eclipse and Passover of
AD 1....the only total eclipse of that era.

My reference for the day of preparation being
a Friday was the Harmony of the Gospels, by
Robert L. Thomas and Stanley N. Gundry pub. in
1978 by HarperSanFrancisco. P.320. My basis
for the above countdown of 69 sets of Biblical sevens within 68 sets of solar sevens (except for 21 days) is found at www.lastday.net (http://www.lastday.net) under Biblical Month and God's Timing and 70 Sevens.
Mel Miller

prophecynut
12-14-2005, 04:35 PM
Amazing how some of the experts who have the intellect and qualifications to evaluate the nativity are far away from the truth. The works of Dr. Ernest Martin, Craig Chester and Barry Setterfield are explanations in futility.

The three principle books I relied on were: In the Fullness of Time, Paul L. Maier; Was Christ Born in Bethlehem?, Sir William Ramsay and A Chronographic Analysis of the Nativity, Jack V. Scarola.

The chronology of Jesus I developed from these sources will be included in my upcoming book, this chronology has Jesus' birth and census by Augustus in 8 BC and Chirst's crucifixtion April 3, 33 AD.

We know from Scripture the star seen by the Magi in the east when Christ was born was the same star that guided them from Jerusalem to Bethlehem approximately two years later (Mt. 2:9-11). This star cannot be a normal planet because they move east to west, not north to south as did the Bethlehem star. A close planetary conjunction could not be the star for they are all too common, occuring almost every year whereas the Bethlehem star appeared for the first time at Christ's birth and reappeared the second time guiding the Wise men.

After the star's appearance there were several conjunctions of Jupiter and Saturn from March to December of 7 BC. The Wise men would have waited until spring of the following year to travel the long distance to Jerusalem, probably arriving there in May of 6 BC. In this same year, as recorded in Antiquities 17:42-45, Herod executed those who were predicting the coming of a Judaic Messiah. He died two years later.

Several Bible translations have this star "rising" when the Wise men from the east saw it for the first time in 8 BC. Another Bible, the New Living Translation has: "We have seen his star as it arose." The Wise men were east of Bethlehem watching his star rise in the western sky in the opposite direction of all the other stars. His star did not follow the normal pattern of planetary stars, it had to be the Shekinah glory of God or illuminated angels. Which one is it?

ituttut
12-15-2005, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Thanks for your most kind reply MM. My main thought was really about the impossibility of a Friday crucifixion. You have done a lot of reading and a lot of research, but all I can believe is scripture, and scripture will not allow Passover to be on (Friday). If from the below, you can find error, I would appreciate scripture to prove so. I worked long and hard with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to find the truth in His Word. It is all in the Book. Walk through this (and others) with me to see if you agree this is what His Word brought together reveals.

I posted something to this effect on another religious board quite a while ago, and somewhere on this board also.

Most here know the Jewish day began at 6PM (nights and days are Sunset and Sunrise meaning a 24 hour day). To understand about the literal three days it is necessary we know what went on before, and what happened afterward. I’ve done this going solely by scripture, and it proves without a doubt Wednesday was the preparation day, and is the only day that is possible for our Lord Jesus Christ to be pilloried, and killed.

Follow me if you will from the six previous days, and see that Jesus Christ had to arise on the third day, just as scripture says, which is Saturday yet He appears arising on Sunday. We also must realize Mark 15:42 is a ‘High Holy Day”, and not the weekly Sabbath – ”And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath.” Leviticus 23:5-7 informs of the High Day Sabbath shown in John 19:31. This High Sabbath always follows “Preparation Day”.

Let’s begin with John 12:1 saying there will be six days, and then the Passover on the seventh day. I can find nothing to refute what follows:

Nisan 8th is our Thursday going to Friday in John 12:1-2 and their beginning of Thursday 6PM-6AM. Jesus arrived 6PM or later for verse 2 advises they made Him supper. John 12:3-11, still a Thursday - ointment applied, and visitors.

Nisan 9 is our Friday going to Saturday, and their ending of Thursday then beginning Friday at 6PM. John 12:12 on their Friday A.M. , branches from Palm’s, acquiring the colt and we see Jesus went to Jerusalem and into the Temple, looked around and back to Bethany, before the Saturday Sabbath, the 10th and the closing of the gates. Also Mark 11:1-11, and Matthew 21:1-11. .

Nisan 10 is our Saturday going to Sunday, and their ending of Friday, then beginning Saturday at 6PM. Mark 11:12 on their Saturday 6AM-6PM they returned to Jerusalem from Bethany, cursed the fig tree, then into the Temple and cleaned house. Jesus left the city, Jerusalem as the Sabbath day was closing, again destined Bethany. Also Matthew 21:12-17.

Nisan 11 is our Sunday going to Monday, and their ending Saturday, then their beginning Sunday at 6 PM (above). Mark 11:20-27. Noticed the fig tree again in the AM, and back to the Temple with the “chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders” asking by what, and whose authority did Jesus do these things. This also in Matthew 21:18 and on.

Matthew 26:1-2, tells us there is two more days and then the Passover.

Nisan 12 is our Monday, and their ending Sunday, then their Monday at 6PM.

Nisan 13 is our Tuesday, and their ending Monday, then their Tuesday at 6PM

Nisan 14 is our Wednesday, and their ending Tuesday, then Passover on Wednesday beginning at 6PM.

So sometime before Thursday (High Sabbath)began, Jesus had to be placed into the Tomb before as the following day of Passover is a “High Sabbath Day”. Using a 24 hour day then Friday would begin the 2nd day, then to Saturday the 3rd Day, on which Jesus Christ arose perhaps nanoseconds before, or just as the next day was dawning, that being Sunday. Here we have the ending of the Old Testament on the Sabbath just as the New Testament begins on the dawning of the first day of the week, Sunday. Christ arose on the third (3) day of death (Sabbath) to the new living day of a New beginning.

So I see three days as we have two days becoming one on Wed/Thur and then two days becoming one on Sat/Sun meaning 72 hours.

The following to buttress a little - Jesus died at 3PM, and taken down sometime between 3 and perhaps 5:00PM Wednesday. John 19:31, ”The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.” Wednesday was the preparation day (Passover) and the next day, Thursday was the “High Sabbath Day”, so they had to get Jesus off of the Cross before 6 PM. They accomplished this, and also were able to place Him in the earth just short of the dawning of their new day, Thursday, or just at Sunset.

Saturday the weekly Sabbath day. Genesis 2:3 says God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, and on this day Jesus Christ arose on the "sanctified" day into the beginning of the new day Nisan 18th Sunday. Genesis 1:5 tells us this new day God called the light Day, and the darkness he called night. And the evening and the morning were the first day of the week. The prophecy of 72 hours in the earth was fulfilled.

If we stop and think for a moment, who said three days, and three nights? It was Jesus. There are approximately 12 hours of light, and approximately 12 hours of dark, and these add up to One 24 hour day. If somebody believes in half days, they know something that God knows nothing about. God knows the orbit of the earth, and it has been making the rounds on a regular basis since God set it in motion.

In the earth and laid in the tomb Wed/Thur sealed, and for three nights and days was in the earth arising then coming forth on Sat/Sun. The wording of Matthew 28:1-2 tells us this is so. ”In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.” Just as the Sabbath was ending and the first day of the week was beginning, the Mary’s were through the gate as they opened and an earthquake happened when the angel rolled open the door of the tomb.

We are to believe scripture, and not about Easter eggs, bunny rabbits, half days, and Idol Holy Days. Nowhere in His Word can we find anything about Christians observing the man made Holy Days. Christian faith, ituttut.

Ransom
12-15-2005, 01:29 PM
webdog asked:

Why can't God have used an angel, or put a special "star" in the sky for His purposes?

Because that wouldn't be intellectually respectable to the skeptics, who are presuppositionally committed to a naturalistic worldview. smile.gif

Ransom
12-15-2005, 01:31 PM
Helen said:

That sounds like a Roman Catholic argument to me! :D

That sounds like a copout to me. :D

Ransom
12-15-2005, 01:34 PM
Helen said:

We do think it was the miraculous Shekinah Glory Cloud which stood over the exact house.

After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. (Matt. 2:9-10)Could you please explain to us at what point "the star" turend into the "Shekinah Glory Cloud"?

Ransom
12-15-2005, 01:39 PM
Johnv said:

You're backwards analyzing using contemporary comprehension.

Identifying two lights as two lights instead of one light is "contemporary comprehension"?

Didn't take much to be a "wise man" back then, obviously, if you couldn't tell the difference between one and two.

You're presuming that a messianic birth should be expected every time the conjunction occurrs.

No, I am presuming that if a mathematically predictable phenomenon is a sign, then its recurrence must also be a sign, or there must be some external reason why the first is and the second isn't.

That's ridiculous. There have been many comets, supernovas, etc, as well, that have also been claimed to be the star of bethlehem, but I don't recall any messianic births since then either, which really makes your point pointless.

Well, no, that is my point, precisely.

It does not "point out the specific house". It simply says the star stop over the house. In order for it to have pointed out just the one specific house, then it sould have had to be low enough to remove any doubt of the house next door being the one.

Yes. And your point is?

If that were the case, then it would not have been called a star.

So every planet, moon, comet, galaxy, and other light in the sky gets to be a star but this one? :rolleyes:

Ransom
12-15-2005, 01:42 PM
Helen said:

Oh no they did not!

My mistake. I misread my source on NASA's Web site.

Still, the point remains.

Helen
12-15-2005, 06:09 PM
What point, Ransom?

And 'committed to a naturalistic point of view'???

HARDLY! If there is ANYONE on this board who opposes evolution it is me! And for basic scientific reasons, as well.

There is nothing wrong with looking for 'naturalistic' explanations within the biblical frame of reference. They may or may not be there. If not, no problem. But as someone who has been involved in science, as a Christian, for a long time, I find it exciting when we can associate something that happened 'in nature' to something God refers to in the Bible.

We are not committed to the idea that the Star was something that we can actually know about astronomically, but the fact that it is, is something that is special and which can be pointed out to unbelievers. I know of at least two cases in which Barry's work on this particular issue has brought men to Christ. Why shouldn't God work through the natural world? He created it!

There is nothing any less miraculous about the timing of what happened than if a special physical angel had personally led the wise men to the place where the Child was.

The Star, by the way, did not 'become' the Shekinah Glory cloud, despite your sarcasm. When the Magoi reached Bethlehem, the Shekinah Glory would very probably have been illuminating the area over the specific residence of Jesus at the time. We do not know if others saw it. We have no report yea or nay on that.

Johnv
12-15-2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Ransom:
Identifying two lights as two lights instead of one light is "contemporary comprehension"?

Didn't take much to be a "wise man" back then, obviously, if you couldn't tell the difference between one and two.
You're dismissing the conjunction idea because you presuming that the "star" talked about in Luke would have been pointed out as "two". No, the "star" referred to would have been Jupiter, since it was the one moving. The fact that it conjuncted with Venus is what made this noticeable.
No, I am presuming that if a mathematically predictable phenomenon is a sign, then its recurrence must also be a sign, or there must be some external reason why the first is and the second isn't.
Scripture is silent on that issue. Scripture is referring to one specific sign at one specific time. For all we know, the conjunction might have been a sign of somethign else at different times, but those different times are irrelevant to the scriptural story. I see no reason why the conjunction idea must be dismissed when it stands up to the logic of the day.
Yes. And your point is?
My point is that Jupiter meets the qualifications of being the Star of Bethlehem.
So every planet, moon, comet, galaxy, and other light in the sky gets to be a star but this one? :rolleyes: That actually supports my view, not yours. In order for it to be a star, it would have been in the canopy of the heavens, like all other planets, moons, comets, galaxies, etc. It would not have been just above the house, as some claim (though scripture does not say this).

prophecynut
12-15-2005, 09:17 PM
Johnv:
"My point is that Jupiter meets the qualifications of being the Star of Bethlehem."

Jupiter moves east to west across the sky.

The star seen by the Magi rose from the west.

Two years later the star appeared again and guided the Magi north to south, from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.

Impossible for Jupiter to be the star.

Helen
12-15-2005, 09:34 PM
Prophecynut, you are showing a pretty enormous ignorance of astronomy. Jupiter revolves around the sun. Therefore, from our point of view it moves east to west until it "stops" and then moves west to east. Please read the material. I think it will help you to understand what is being said. The star 'stood' to the south at the winter solstice. It did not need to move to the south. Nor was it a two year thing. PLEASE read the material before you make more comments from ignorance.

prophecynut
12-15-2005, 11:03 PM
I read the article, Jupiter and other stars travel a "retrograde loop" in the heavens, as you described above.

Concerning the Magi's trip from Jerusalem to Bethlehem he said; "It (Jupiter) would have been in the southern sky, though fairly high above the horizon." This statement demolishes his theory that Jupiter could of been the star that "stopped over the place where the child was" (Mt. 2:9). It had to come close to the horizon in order for the Maji to see where Jesus was located.

No possible way Jupiter was the Bethlehem star.

Helen
12-16-2005, 01:47 AM
don't know who you are quoting, but this is from Barry's paper:

"From that moment in Mid-November, Jupiter the King planet actually went before them in the sky towards Judea. Six weeks later, as the Magoi checked the pre-dawn sky, Jupiter was on the Meridian due south of Jerusalem. It would appear directly over Bethlehem 65 degrees above the southern horizon."

Paul of Eugene
12-16-2005, 12:06 PM
65 degrees above the horizon is fairly high above the horizon. Its more than 2/3 of all the way to zenith, which would be 90 degrees. So you guys are saying the same thing.

prophecynut
12-16-2005, 02:15 PM
The Magi from far off saw the star rising, surely someone in the Bethlehem area saw the star. Does Scripture mention anyone?

Johnv
12-16-2005, 02:22 PM
Scripture implies that the star was not seen by all. For example, Herod didn't have a clue (he wasn't skilled in astrology). So he had to ask his astrologers for advice.

Indeed, to the average person, a point of light in the sky like Jupiter or any other planet would have been unnoticed.

Ransom
12-16-2005, 03:25 PM
Helen said:

We are not committed to the idea that the Star was something that we can actually know about astronomically,

Your rather aggressive efforts to convert me to your point of view on this rather inconsequential point suggest otherwise.

There is nothing any less miraculous about the timing of what happened than if a special physical angel had personally led the wise men to the place where the Child was.

On the contrary, there is nothing miraculous about a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus at all, or of the timing of this particular one. It can be predicted mathematically.

The Star, by the way, did not 'become' the Shekinah Glory cloud, despite your sarcasm.

I know it didn't, because Scripture says nothing about the "Shekinah Glory Cloud" at all.

prophecynut
12-16-2005, 10:06 PM
God's presence can take on different forms besides the glory cloud, like the burning bush to Mosses and the pillar of fire that held back the Egyptian army.

The Shekinah Glory of God was present at Christ's transfiguration (Lk. 9:29) and when Paul saw the resurrected Jesus (Acts 9:3-9).

There is another NT Scripture passage on the Shekinah glory of God that the Magi saw, what Scripture is it?

LadyEagle
12-16-2005, 10:22 PM
When I tried to read some of this thread, it made my head spin. So, I'm just going to butt in and say, if...."and the Glory of the Lord shone round about them and they were sore afraid..." isn't Shekinah Glory, I don't know what is.

Lady Eagle,
Over and out

prophecynut
12-16-2005, 10:59 PM
You did it, that's the Scripture! graemlins/thumbs.gif

An angel of the Lord, surrounded by the glory of the Lord, was seen by the shepherds.

"Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel"

"When the angels had left them and gone into heaven" the shepherds went to Bethlehem. Lk. 2:9,13,15.

The heavenly host and the glory of the Lord surrounding them returned to heaven.

The brilliant light surrounding the heavenly host is the star seen by the Magi rising in the western sky over Israel when Christ was born.

prophecynut
12-17-2005, 06:26 PM
Where is the king of the deniers? I saw him post and wonder were he is.

Helen
12-22-2005, 12:44 PM
I'm bringing this up to present something that someone brought up at our Bible study last night. We read in Luke that the shepherds told the people in Bethlehem what they had seen and what happened:

"When they had seen him [Christ as a baby in the manger], they spread the word concerning what had been told them aboutthis child, and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them."Luke2:17-18

When we read in Matthew that 'the star stopped over the place where the child was' (2:9), we always seem to have assumed that the star stopped over the specific house, and so that the star must have been the Shekinah Glory -- and that may be right. BUT, since all Bethlehem, or at least a good part of it, had been aware of the Shepherd's story from a year or 15 months earlier, it would not have been hard for the Magoi to simply ask where this Child was and be directed to the exact house.

I don't know, but it was an interesting thought and I wanted to mention it here.

Mel Miller
12-23-2005, 02:56 PM
Thank you all for the interesting exchanges.
Now, under the Secret of the Seventy Sevens,
I have posted a view of the days that must
have fulfilled the "day" (Luke 19:42) and
the appointed "time" for the Triumphal Entry
to fulfill Zech.9:9 and Dan.9:26a for the
death of Christ on Friday, Day of Preparation,
in AD 32.

I had figured Jesus as being 1 1/2 years of age in BC 1 long before I knew about "The Star that Astonished the World" by Martin.

If BC 445 is correct for the Decree to build
Jerusalem's wall (as per the New KJV; Dan.9:25), then AD 32 is the only possible date for Christ's death at age 33 1/2.

Mel Miller, member First Baptist Church of Norfolk, VA.

Phillip
12-23-2005, 03:21 PM
Hi Mel, nice to debate wicha'

Are you Navy or Navy civilian? Just curious, I did a lot of work for NAVSEA in Norfolk at a time long-ago and far-far-away.

Mel Miller
12-24-2005, 11:32 AM
Hi Philip,

I began Ministerial training at MBI in 1940 and
so, except for joining the National Guard, I
never had military experience.

I am retired, at 85, and spend most of my time
studying eschatology. My viewpoint is modified from that held by most Pre-Mills since I start with the premise that the "Day of the Lord" is
a single 12-Hour Day and/or refers to a 1000-Year Millennium beginning at the 2nd Advent.

My website, www.lastday.net, (http://www.lastday.net,) has been up since
May of 1999. I think there is another member
going by the name of lastdaystruth. I go by
just Lastday with address at lastday1@cox.net.

I live in Va. Beach with my daughter and son-
in-law and attend First Baptist of Norfolk.
Our pastor, Eric Thomas, is a son of one of
the executives in the SBC.
Mel Miller

Mel Miller
12-24-2005, 12:57 PM
ituttut,

It is true there were other "holy days" besides
the Sabbath; but the "high holy day" following the Day of Preparation had to be a Saturday if
Robert Thomas and Stanley Gundry were correct
that Jews always considered Friday as the Day
of Preparation. Harmony of Gospels, Page 320.

The secret of the 70 Sevens required the last
day of Nisan to be the 69th anniversary of the Decree to build the walls of Jerusalem (using sets of 2520 days overlaid on contiguous sets
of 365.25 days for each set of seven). That
anniversay fell on a 5th Sunday every 7 years!

Daniel's 69 sets of seven had to be overlaid on 68 sets of solar sevens that ended on Nisan 9
for the simple reason that no other number than
a multiple of 68x7 could produce a whole number
of 24 hour days to produce 476 years of 24 hour days between BC 445 and AD 32 and still fulfill 69 sets of 2520 days (69x7) on Nisan 30, AD 32.

Nisan 9 was the only day of the month that could be 21 days prior to Nisan 30 and also be the
last day of 476 years since Nisan 30 of BC 445. Nisan 9 had to be "this day" of Luke 19:42 on which Jesus wept because they did not recognize it fulfilled Zech.9:9.

At the same time, vs.44, Jesus revealed they did not recognize the "time of visitation" which was
from "this day" until His death which had to
be five days later, Nisan 14, two weeks before
Nisan 30 as it was the 69th time that Passover
fell on Friday, Nisan 14 in 483 prophetic years.

Since Jesus died on Nisan 14 which was the Day of Preparation, He died five days "after" He
was presented as "King" in order to fulfill both Zech.9:9 on "this day" as well as Lev.23:5 and Dan.9:26a at "this time". (Nisan 30-21=9th; and 9th+5=14).

The basis for fulfilling each set of 69 sevens (7x360 or 2520) was to overlay it on 68 sevens (7x365.25 or 2556.75 minus 7x5.25 for each set
of 2520 days). Nisan 14 fell on a FRIDAY once every 7 years of 84 months. Passover, on that same basis, was a Friday in BC 4, AD 4,11,18,25 and AD.32 which was exactly 33 1/2 years after Christ's birth in BC 3 of a Julian Calendar or New Year's day of BC 2 of a Hebrew calendar.

Please read my Secret of Seventy Sevens.

Mel Miller at lastday1@cox.net.

Mel Miller
12-25-2005, 06:23 AM
ituttit - member 8890

On the 14th you as this question that I did not
answer directly:
----------------------------------------------
"Was about two years afterwards factored in, as this is when the Wise Men came?
----------------------------------------------

The key point is that Daniel did NOT indicate
the 69 sets of seven were 483 "years". He only
stated they were 69 heptads (sevens). They had
to determine that a heptad could be 2520 years.

If this was true, then each set of seven solar
years would be reduced to sets of 2520 days (7x365.25=2556.75 less 7x5.25 or 36.75 days
from 2556.75 = 2520 days).

The Wise Men knew of Daniel's prophecy and that the decree to build Jerusalem's Wall was BC 445.
They knew the prophecy would be fulfilled in
multiples of 30-day months for two reasons and
that 476 (68x7) solar years equalled 483 (69x7)
except for 21 days. Only the 68 sets of solar
years could produce 69 sets of 2520 days.

(1) In the year BC 3 it had already been 442
years since the decree.
(2) The pattern of 30-day months was set by
the 1290 days or 43-30-day months of Dan.12:11.

By the countdown to BC 3, with 442 of the 476 years ended, only 34 years were need to get to 476. The remaining 34 years needed (476-442) would be reached in 33.5 years (33.5x365.25 %360=34). Subtracting only 33.5 real years, Jesus was born in the fall of BC 3 on a solar calendar and BC 2 on a Hebrew calendar; but He was just 1 and 1/2 in the spring of BC 1 on both calendars.

By the fall of BC 1, when the Wise Men came
to Bethlehem and Herod thought Jesus might be two years of age, the King would be close to
30 in about 28 years which would become AD 32.
Mel Miller at www.lastday.net. (http://www.lastday.net.)

Mel Miller
12-25-2005, 06:26 AM
ituttit

I'm sorry, but I should have written "2520
days" rather than 2520 years.

Mel

Mel Miller
12-25-2005, 06:33 AM
ituttit,

And again, I meant AD 30 at the close.
I'm writing this too early on Christmas morning.
Mel

Mel Miller
12-29-2005, 08:13 PM
Friends,

Before closing this topic, let me make a note on the birth of Jesus in the "fulness of time".

Between New Year's day, Tishri I of BC 445 and Tishri 1 of AD 32 (when Jesus became 33 years of age), there were exactly 25 Hebrew cycles of 19 years each during which 7 sets of 30-day solar months were added to each cycle so that each new cycle started on the same day or within 3 days of each preceeding cycle on New Year's Day. This was 68 sets of 7; 445-1+32 or 476%7.

The above calculation does not deal with the five months from the Spring of BC 445 to New
Year's Day of that year NOR with the 7 months
from Jesus' 32nd birthday on New Year's day of AD 31 until His death in the Spring of AD 32.
The multiple of 25 sets of 19 years (475) began and ended on New Year's day from BC 445 to AD 31.

But the countdown itself required sixty-nine prophetic sets of 2520 days (7x360) which were overlaid on these 476 solar years so as to produce all but 21 days for the 69th set of prophetic sevens.

The 69 prophetic sevens forced Passover to occur on Friday, Nisan 14, once every 2520 days or the
2nd Friday of every 84th set of 30-day months.

The last day of the 68 Solar Sets of Seven
was Palm Sunday, Nisan 14, which was 21 days
shy of the 69th time the Decree of Neh.2:1
fell on the 5th Sunday of Nisan overlaid on
the total of solar days (476x365.25=173,859).
The 476x5.25 extra days provided all but 21
days for the 69th Set of Prophetic Sevens!!

The Magi knew that 445 solar (452.5 prophetic) years (to the fall of what became AD 1) would have passed (with Herod having died in the spring of BC 1) to complete 452.5 prophetic
years (445x365.25%360=452.5).

They could also figure Jesus would be 2 in that same fall of AD 1 and that 31 more solar years would complete 483 prophetic sevens (452.5+30.5 =483; or 445+31 from AD 1 to AD 32=476).

That meant they could even have known He would
be "cut off" in about 7 months after he reached
the age of 33 to fulfill Dan.9:26. He was
"cut off, but not for Himself AFTER" being
hailed as King of the Jews to fulfill Zech.9:9.
"This day", Jesus said, was fulfilled when
He wept because they did not "recognize the
appointed time of His/their visitation" . . .
the Time that included His death 5 days later!

Mel Miller
Junior Member 13061 www.lastday.net (http://www.lastday.net)

Mel Miller
12-29-2005, 08:51 PM
Please, a minor correction to this paragraph:

"The above calculation does not deal with the five months from the Spring of BC 445 to New
Year's Day of that year NOR with the 7 months
from Jesus' 33rd birthday on New Year's day of AD 32 until His death in the Spring of AD 32.
This calculation is based on solar years.

(The Hebrew year of AD 32 began in the fall
when He was 33 and was still the same year in the "spring" of AD 32 when He was 33 1/2)

The multiple of 25 sets of 19 years (475) began and ended on New Year's day from the fall of BC 445 to the fall of AD 32.

It was Jesus' 33rd birthday (not His 32nd) that began a New Year in AD 32 after 475 years had completed 25 cycles of 19 Solar years between the fall of BC 445 and the last day that ended AD 31 (445-1+31=475 or 25x19) on the day before New Year's Day of AD 32.

The "fulness of time" employed 25 sets of 19 years, each of which required the intercalation of exactly seven 30-day months between the first New Year's day to the final day of 475 years between the start of BC 445 and the end of year AD 31.

Thank you.
Mel Miller at www.lastday.net (http://www.lastday.net)

ituttut
01-12-2006, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by Mel Miller:
ituttut,

It is true there were other "holy days" besides
the Sabbath; but the "high holy day" following the Day of Preparation had to be a Saturday if
Robert Thomas and Stanley Gundry were correct
that Jews always considered Friday as the Day
of Preparation. Harmony of Gospels, Page 320.

But this is not what the Bible says. Can we depend on the word of man?

The secret of the 70 Sevens required the last
day of Nisan to be the 69th anniversary of the Decree to build the walls of Jerusalem (using sets of 2520 days overlaid on contiguous sets
of 365.25 days for each set of seven). That
anniversay fell on a 5th Sunday every 7 years!

Daniel's 69 sets of seven had to be overlaid on 68 sets of solar sevens that ended on Nisan 9
for the simple reason that no other number than
a multiple of 68x7 could produce a whole number
of 24 hour days to produce 476 years of 24 hour days between BC 445 and AD 32 and still fulfill 69 sets of 2520 days (69x7) on Nisan 30, AD 32.

Nisan 9 was the only day of the month that could be 21 days prior to Nisan 30 and also be the
last day of 476 years since Nisan 30 of BC 445. Nisan 9 had to be "this day" of Luke 19:42 on which Jesus wept because they did not recognize it fulfilled Zech.9:9.

At the same time, vs.44, Jesus revealed they did not recognize the "time of visitation" which was
from "this day" until His death which had to
be five days later, Nisan 14, two weeks before
Nisan 30 as it was the 69th time that Passover
fell on Friday, Nisan 14 in 483 prophetic years.

The premise is wrong as some has chosen a Friday endeavoring to make events fit their formula. Something is wrong for Wednesday is the only possible day. A Tuesday crucifixion would have Jesus Christ arising on a Friday/Saturday at 6 PM, and a Thursday would have Jesus Christ arising on as Sunday/Monday at 6PM. And a Friday? Jesus will not allow this to be the day. Jesus said He would be in the earth for three days and three nights, so Friday is out of the question.

Since Jesus died on Nisan 14 which was the Day of Preparation, He died five days "after" He
was presented as "King" in order to fulfill both Zech.9:9 on "this day" as well as Lev.23:5 and Dan.9:26a at "this time". (Nisan 30-21=9th; and 9th+5=14).

Agree with the five (5) days after He was presented (Friday). Five days afterwards is Wednesday.

The basis for fulfilling each set of 69 sevens (7x360 or 2520) was to overlay it on 68 sevens (7x365.25 or 2556.75 minus 7x5.25 for each set
of 2520 days). Nisan 14 fell on a FRIDAY once every 7 years of 84 months. Passover, on that same basis, was a Friday in BC 4, AD 4,11,18,25 and AD.32 which was exactly 33 1/2 years after Christ's birth in BC 3 of a Julian Calendar or New Year's day of BC 2 of a Hebrew calendar.

Please read my Secret of Seventy Sevens.

Mel Miller at lastday1@cox.net. Mel we still must believe Jesus knew how long He would be in the earth. He prophesied three days and three nights, and He fulfilled prophecy. In the above equation please notice the terms to help determine correctness – “24 hour days to produce 476 years of 24 hour days between BC 445 and AD 32.”. Twenty-four (24) hours is used to arrive at your Friday determination. Since a day and night is considered to be a 24 hour period, and if Jesus was crucified and laid in the tomb on that Friday we still must adhere to the 24 hour day, which we know is correct. Hence, in the tomb at Friday 5:59:59P.M to Saturday 5:59:59P.M. (day 1), to Sunday 5:59:59P.M. (day2), to Monday 5:59:59PM (day 3), emerging from the tomb on Tuesday at Sunset at 6:00P.M, the dawning of the 24 hour day of the Jew. Christian faith, ituttut

ituttut
01-12-2006, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Mel Miller:
ituttit - member 8890

On the 14th you as this question that I did not
answer directly:
----------------------------------------------
"Was about two years afterwards factored in, as this is when the Wise Men came?
----------------------------------------------

The key point is that Daniel did NOT indicate
the 69 sets of seven were 483 "years". He only
stated they were 69 heptads (sevens). They had
to determine that a heptad could be 2520 years.

If this was true, then each set of seven solar
years would be reduced to sets of 2520 days (7x365.25=2556.75 less 7x5.25 or 36.75 days
from 2556.75 = 2520 days).

The Wise Men knew of Daniel's prophecy and that the decree to build Jerusalem's Wall was BC 445.
They knew the prophecy would be fulfilled in
multiples of 30-day months for two reasons and
that 476 (68x7) solar years equalled 483 (69x7)
except for 21 days. Only the 68 sets of solar
years could produce 69 sets of 2520 days.

(1) In the year BC 3 it had already been 442
years since the decree.
(2) The pattern of 30-day months was set by
the 1290 days or 43-30-day months of Dan.12:11.

By the countdown to BC 3, with 442 of the 476 years ended, only 34 years were need to get to 476. The remaining 34 years needed (476-442) would be reached in 33.5 years (33.5x365.25 %360=34). Subtracting only 33.5 real years, Jesus was born in the fall of BC 3 on a solar calendar and BC 2 on a Hebrew calendar; but He was just 1 and 1/2 in the spring of BC 1 on both calendars.

By the fall of BC 1, when the Wise Men came
to Bethlehem and Herod thought Jesus might be two years of age, the King would be close to
30 in about 28 years which would become AD 32.
Mel Miller at www.lastday.net. (http://www.lastday.net.) Thanks for the answer Mel. I was just wondering if this had been factored in.

I'll not at this point agree or disagree for I am not versed in what you present. All I suggest and maintain is that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday and laid in the tomb on a Wednesday in order for prophecy to be fulfilled. Christian faith, ituttut

ituttut
01-12-2006, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by Mel Miller:
ituttit,

And again, I meant AD 30 at the close.
I'm writing this too early on Christmas morning.
Mel Understandable. Christian faith, ituttut

Mel Miller
01-12-2006, 05:26 AM
Ituttut,

I ask you to consider that Jews considered any
part of a day as being a whole 24-Hour Day.

This is seen in the case of the week between
the revelation by Jesus that some would "taste
death after they see the Kingdom of God having
come in POWER" AND His meeting with three Disciples on the Mt. of Transfiguration.

Matthew and Mark say it was "six days later"
that Jesus took them to the Mount. But Luke
9:28 says it was "about eight days later."
Luke considered any time before 6 PM of the
first day and any time after 6 PM of the 6th
day as a separate day to equal about 8 days.

So you must admit you may be wrong to insist
Jesus was "presented" on a Friday instead of
on Palm Sunday. I have shown that the Day of
Preparation was always Friday, the Day before
the high holy day of Saturday.

So the three days and nights were made up of:
Day one from Friday 5 PM or so to 6PM Friday.
Day two from Friday 6 PM to Saturday at 6 PM.
Day three from Sat. 6 PM to Sunday, 6 AM or so.

The last solar day of the 476 years (68 sets
of Seven; 445-1+32=476%7=68) was Nisan 9 which did not change the last prophetic day of 483 prophetic sets of seven (7x360=2520) as of
Nisan 30, AD 32. (But 476=seven years short of 7x69 or 483). So the 69th set was made up of
476x5.25=2499 or just 21 days short of 2520)!

This forced the final solar day to be Nisan 9
for the Presentation of Christ on Sunday; just
three weeks before the 69th anniversary of the
original decree of Neh.2:1 on Sunday Nisan 30, AD 32. That day occurred 69 times on the 5th
Sunday of Nisan; no more, no less when sets of
2520 days are overlaid on sets of 2556.75 days.

So the last day of the 68 sets of solar sevens
forced the prophecy of Zech.9:9 to be fulfilled
on Nisan 9, 21 days before the anniversary of
the original decree for the 69th time on Nisan
30 of AD 32. The secret of the 70 Sevens can
only be maintained by overlapping 69 sets of
2520 days upon 68 sets of 2556.75 solar days.

Yet the number of days from about 5 PM Friday, Nisan 14, to Sunday AM, Nisan 16, while it was
still dark for Mary's trip to the grave, can be reckoned as three whole days and nights! Jesus
had to die on Nisan 14 to fulfill Lev.23:5.

Thanks for the challenge.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net (http://www.lastday.net)

Pilgrimer
11-22-2007, 02:35 AM
Hello Dr. Bob,
I agree with your assessment. The posting that argues for a 1 B.C. dating contains many factual errors, and ignores a vast amount of historical data that supports the traditional dating of Christ’s birth to the end of December 5 B.C., some several weeks before Herod’s death in 4 B.C. I doubt that there will be any profit in my attempting to address that post but it appears you and I are very close in our views so I would like to offer you a few comments that you might find helpful.
There is no reason to try to fix Jesus’ age at the time of the slaughter of the babes in Bethlehem as being two years old. That wasn’t the reason Herod had all the babes up to two years in age slain. In fact, the word “child” used for Jesus in Matthew 2, at the time of the visit of the magi, is “paidion,” the same word that is used for Jesus in Luke 1:59 when the “child”(paidion) Jesus is brought to the temple for circumcision . . . when he is eight days old. I don’t believe it is necessary to try to force Jesus’ age to explain why Herod had all the babes up to two years slain. The reason has to do with the first appearing of the star. Allow me to posit another scenario and I ask you to give it due thought in the context of the history of that period.
You are aware I am sure that there were two primary centers of Jewish scholarship during this period of time; one was in Jerusalem and the other was in Babylon. In fact, the more familiar you become with the geo-political world of Palestine in the last century B.C. and first century A.D. the more you realize how much influence the wealthy Rabbinic Jews in Babylon exercised in the affairs of the Jewish state and later in the development of Rabbinic Theology. One of the two Talmuds was produced by the Babylonian school.
It is my contention that the magi were in fact Babylonian Jews who were students of both the Jewish Scriptures as well as being “scientists,” which is the best translation of the word “magos.” The explanation that these were gentiles just doesn’t make much sense when you think about it. Why would gentiles even be aware of Jewish messianic prophecy, why would they interpret this star as signifying the birth of a foreign ruler, and why would they travel some obvious distance to worship a foreign potentate? I think it much more likely that these were Babylonian Jews who were well versed in the messianic prophecies of the Scripture and were well studied in what was at that time considered the “science” of astrology, for which Babylon is so famous.
But add to that consideration this bit of data: in three different passages in the Babylonian Talmud (The Book of Elijah, Chapters about the Messiah, and The Mysteries of R. Simon, son of Jochai) it was believed that two years before the messiah a star would appear that would herald his birth. This was based on an interpretation of Numbers 24:17-19. The traditional Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture that placed his birth at Bethlehem is well known because of it’s mention in the Gospel, but there are other traditions that were equally well known to 1st century Jewry.
Another is the traditional interpretation of Micah that the coming of the messiah would be announced from the Migdal Eder . . . or “watchtower of the flock” referring to the watchtower which stood in the field where the temple flock (the sheep kept for sacrifice) was kept just outside Bethlehem on the road to Jerusalem. This would have been the same watchtower where the shepherds would have been keeping watch over the flocks when the angelic host appeared and announced to them the good news of Christ’s birth. It was these same shepherds who went to see the Christ child and then went all over the countryside telling everyone of the things which they had seen and heard, in fulfillment of the Micah passage.
At any rate, I digress.
The point of this post is to suggest that the reason Herod had all the babes up to two years of age slain wasn’t because he had inquired of the wise men when the babe had been born (and therefore Jesus must have been around two years old) . . . but rather when had they first seen the star. According to Jewish tradition, taught by the Rabbinic scholars at Babylon and recorded in three different passages of Talmudic law, they were expecting, waiting and watching for a star to appear two years before the Messiah’s birth.
"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared."

In Christ,
Deborah

Pilgrimer
11-22-2007, 02:53 AM
>I ask you to consider that Jews considered any
part of a day as being a whole 24-Hour Day.

Not that I have found. The Jewish method of reckoning was to divide the day into 12 hours beginning at 6:00 a.m. and ending at 6:00 p.m. The night was also divided into 12 hours. See Matthew 20. The "third" hour would be 9:00 a.m., the "sixth" hour would be 12:00 noon, the "ninth" hour would be 3:00 p.m. and the "eleventh" hour would be 5:00 p.m. At 6:00 p.m. the night began with it's division of 12 hours. A night and day together equaled 24 hours.

In Christ,
Deborah

Pilgrimer
11-22-2007, 09:38 AM
> the day on which Jesus was born which was September 11, BC 3 on the Julian Calendar and New Year’s Day, Tishri One of BC 2 on the Hebrew Calendar.

That would require a census to have been conducted on a feast day preventing the feast's legal observance, a circumstance which is historically impossible. In addition, Tisri 1 was a High Sabbath when travel was not permitted. Also, a feast day would have seen a great influx of pilgrim visitors to the city of Jerusalem, not to the town of Bethlehem which lay outside the Levitical boundaries of the Holy City.

Speculation on dating 1st century events has to take into account the historical realities of the period.

In Christ,
Deborah

Pilgrimer
11-22-2007, 12:25 PM
>Why does the world believe what the Catholic church brought into Christianity, that of the fallacy of Easter, and a Birthday that God did not intend for us to correctly know?

The feast of the nativity was being observed by all the churches from the very beginning of the Gospel. It is first mentioned in the early 2nd century writings of the Coptic Church in Egypt. The western churches, and particularly the church at Rome, resisted the feast of the nativity as being an "oriental invention" and did not concede to the observance until the 4th century. To this day the Coptic Church, as well as the Greek Orthodox church (the "eastern" churches), celebrate the feast of the nativity on December 25 and the feast of the Baptism or "Epiphany" on January 6, which reconciles with the Gospel account that when Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan River he "began to be about 30 years old," meaning he had just had his 30th birthday. The churches in Palestine were celebrating the nativity and the baptism as one feast long before the western churches' began their observance.
Easter too was celebrated from the very beginning of the Gospel, long before the Roman church took upon itself the mantle of authority she now claims to have held. No offense to my Catholic brethren, but the Catholic Church would have it that the church at Rome had authority over all the churches in the first few centuries and was responsible for developing Christian doctrine and practice, but history tells a different story. There were many divisons and differences of opinion among the early churches, and often times the church at Rome was over-ridden in matters of doctrine and practice, the celebration of Christmas and Easter being two examples . . . Victor was even admonished by Emperor Constantine himself to stop troubling those who differed from the Roman Church on the issue of Easter. The Catholic Church by no means had the authority to dictate to the Christian world what was and what was not proper doctrine or practice, and the history of that period demonstrates glaringly how such a high-handed assumption of authority was resisted by the other churches throughout the empire. The notion that the Catholic Church "adopted" pagan holidays in order to make Christianity more "palatable" to pagans is grossly untrue. Not to mention what such slander does against the multitudes of faithful Christians who gave their lives in the prisons and arenas of the Roman Empire and wrote the history of the early church in their own blood but who are by these baseless accusations being accused of compromising with paganism. What a shame.
Perhaps it is not scholastic accuracy that drives much of the rejection of traditional Christian celebrations, but rather an eschatological agenda and a large dose of anti-Catholic bias.
In Christ,
Deborah