What is an Independent Baptist?

[rlvaughn]

The webmaster posted a question on another topic, asking "How many independent Baptists?" This brings to mind another question, "What is an independent Baptist?" I would think that almost all Baptist churches would ultimately define themselves as independent. If one were to count independent Baptist churches, which churches would he count? All those that refer to themselves as independent? Only those that have no denominational affiliations at all? What criteria would you lay down to define an independent Baptist? WHAT IS AN INDEPENDENT BAPTIST?

[ June 25, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

[Dajuid]

An Independent Baptist church, is not affiliated with any particular Baptist group* or denomination. Because of this they can support their own missionaries, select their own leaders, and support institutions that believe as they believe without the politics that often accompany denominationalism.

This is a very generalized definition, but I think it fits most Independent Baptist churches.

* see the Post by the Webmaster entitled "Baptist groups in the USA" (http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=25&t=000001)

[ June 26, 2001: Message edited by: Dajuid ]

[Scott J]

Dajuid put it pretty well in a nutshell. As IB, we recognize that the NT does not establish a church hierarchy above the local level therefore we should not either. In addition, we are commanded not to yoke ourselves with those that are doctrinally unsound. To blindly support missionaries, seminaries, church plants, etc. that might be doctrinally unsound is definitely against Bible teaching.

Regrettably, "independent" is also a label that has recently been applied to churches that have rebelled against "liberal" conventions and institutions. This reactionary "movement" is especially prevalent in the south and against the SBC. It is in these churches that you will find the most radical KJVO types, Hyles style easy believism, and other neo-fundamentalist errors.

[Cindy]

I heard this tongue-in-cheek and not-too-flattering definition:

"independent Baptist---one who is independent in everything but his thinking"

Ok, that's not always true...but all too often? :eek:

Elizabeth smile.gif

[rlvaughn]

"In its most basic definition, 'independent Baptist' simply describes a church that is Baptist in polity and that is unaffiliated with a denominational structure." David Cloud

'Independent Baptist' is a very very broad terminology that identifies a wide variety of Baptists. When most people use the term 'independent Baptist' to describe a church, they probably are using in a much narrower way - what they believe is an 'independent Baptist' church.

[Dr. Bob]

Elsbeth - Independent and Autonomous (self-governing) are MYTHICAL distinctives of most Baptist churches.

Try violating one of the hundreds of fundamentalist traditions and see how autonomous your church really is! :rolleyes:

Illustration: Grace Baptist had typical SS and AM services. And a different PM service. Many folks had little children and asked if the PM service could be duplicated at 8:30 a.m. for those who wanted to attend but not at night.

Did it for a few years, but it was so controversial among other churches (names leveled included "liberal" and "neo") and so much pressure was put on this ifb congregation that they finally "gave up" and went back to the typical services.

Did you know that there was NO SUNDAY SCHOOL until 200 years ago? NO EVENING SERVICE until 150 years ago? NO INVITATION/ALTAR CALL until 130 years ago? NO ORGANIZED PRAYER MEETING until 200 years ago? NO KJV BIBLE like we use until 235 years ago?

What would you think of a church TODAY that:
*Did not have Sunday School?
*Did not have Prayer Meeting?
*Did not have Evening Gospel Services?
*Did not have an Invitation?
*Did not use the KJV we use?

We'd call them "liberal" or "new evangelical" or "neo". But these are ALL traditions that have been added to the New Testament in just the past couple of centuries!

And we condemn Catholics for following Church tradition . . . :rolleyes:

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
NO EVENING SERVICE until 150 years ago? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow! If there was no evening service, then Paul must have preached for 15 hours! :D

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

I think it more likely that the evening service was the norm in the apostolic era. The church would meet after sundown saturday, on the first day of the week by Jewish reckoning, and in that context Paul preached until midnight. That would be an evening service of about 4 or 5 hours, depending on the time of year. I suspect some of it was taken up by singing, some testimonies, prayer, etc., then Paul preached. Perhaps for a couple hours or more, but definately in the evening. smile.gif

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

[Dr. Bob]

Thomas, you're correct of one instance in Acts. But you're also playing the Devil's Advocate (and you're GOOD at it)!! ;)

Of course, I'm talking about the typical 7 pm Sunday night service in ifb churches that only began as a result of the revivalism and Finneyesque preaching of the later 1800's.

The church I pastored 72-78 had all its business meeting minutes in Welsh until 1920 when it changed to English. But when we had them translated, we found that the church had 9:30 SS, 10:30 AM, dinner, 1:30 PM then back by wagon or sleigh to milk. Found that was common for the churches through the turn of the century.

[DocCas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Thomas, you're correct of one instance in Acts. But you're also playing the Devil's Advocate (and you're GOOD at it)!! ;)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to mention, it is a lot of fun too! :D

[Pastor KevinR]

Our IFB church dropped the night service. "God forbid", I mean, "May it never be" ;) . What we do is immediately following the morning service, we have a fellowship time with light finger food, then we have a Bible study, finishing around 2:00 to 2:15. This has actually increased our attendance! i.e. more folks stay for the afternoon, than return in the evening! smile.gif I believe sometimes we must accomodate to our people, but not compromise. Most people in our neck of the woods, this little hick town known as Queens section of NYC, do not like to go out at night, especially since so many have to take a bus or train to church.They're more than happy that we have accomodated them in this way. :D ;) smile.gif

[extremebiblereader]

I want to get something out of this so i am saying this in all kindness. So I am trying to understand and what i got out of this comment.
Scottj- You posted that most IFB churches rebelled against the SBC and are just KJVO's and Hyles easy believism. Well is there anything wrong with being that way for one? Two, not all IFB churches rebelled if you want to put it that way against the SBC. Some just broke apart from what i have heard because the SBC starting changing there beliefs and were not lined up with the Bible. And so they broke apart to be "independent" on their own so they could make there own standards based upon the Bible. Fundemental i can't really give a thought on that because i am not to sure what that means. But when i find out i will let you know. Some one on here will tell me probably.
If that came off in the wrong way i am sorry..i didn't try it. I just was wondering what was so wrong with believing that? I don't see anything wrong with it as long as you are abiding by the laws of the Bible.

[ChozGod]

Extreme,
I belong to a IBC, Our Pastor wasn't trying to be a rebel but started an IBC so he was independant from the rules and changes of a denomination, feeling that makes him more accountable to search out Gods word for the Pastoring and running of his church. We call ourselves Baptists because that word means to plunge under water ( not sprinkle) that is how we baptise.
Fundemental because we only preach and teach out of the word of God.
paula

[Squire Robertsson]

I too take umbrage with Scott's characterization. My home church was founded in 1881. It was founded independently of any denominational structure (though it drew its founding membership from people of the nothern Baptist persuasion). And it has remained independent for the last 120 years. The only issue our founders were rebelling against was the issue of pew rents.

[FundamentalDan]

I firmly believe that the "independent" in Independent, Fundamental Baptist is often neglected. It is the right of the church to independently follow the leadership of God and the authority of His Word in running their church. We have no king but Jesus, as the saying goes. The pastor is the undershepherd, ruling under the leadership of Christ. This gives our church the ability to act as an autonomous body and still have the organization necessary to run effectively. We do not answer to a convention, committee, or board of elders who are not members of our local church. There are many other churches that are independent Baptists and do things different, but that is their prerogative. This allows for not only great local effectiveness, but also for great variety in the IFB movement. By the way, Dr. Bob, I know of several churches that have afternoon instead of evening services. I even know of a few that have their midweek service on Thursday or Tuesday (gasp!).

In some countries their morning service is in the afternoon,

FundamentalDan

[myreflection26]

I believe that for a church to be independent is one of the dumbest moves they could do. I know of a pastor right now who's leading an independent church and this pastor has had so many problems from family problems to church related problems and he has had absolutely no one but God to lean on.

Every christian and christian leader needs an accountability basis to be corrected by and helped by and without this very biblical accountability basis a church can easily crumble. Would any one of you like for President Bush to have no accountability basis? If he were allowed to do whatever he wants under "leadership of God" no matter if it were really biblically right or wrong?

Conventions and boards can be of much help to a pastor and a church. A good accountability can help a pastor thru very tough situations and even stand to correct a pastor in wrong. Yes the pastor is the leader, but a good leader will be open to correction too.

Sue

[Pete Richert]

I'm all for automous and all that. I have never actually seen it make it difference. But I don't get the impression that Paul thought any of the Churches he started (or even ones he didn't directly ie. Collossee) were independent of him. Nor did he think they were independent of his authority though Timothy and Titus when he sent them. I would hate to error in the other direction, being afraid to associate with other churches and hence neglect the finicial need in Jerusalem that all the early churches aided in (just to take an NT example).

[Dajuid]

myreflection26,
I respectfully disagree with your statement. Please indulge me while I attempt to explain my reasoning.

If I understand you correctly, your main reasoning is that the pastor is not held accountable. I believe this view is in error. I say this because I know that IFB Pastors are held accountable just as any other Pastor. The congregation is where his accountability lies. If a Pastor errs, it is well within the congregations place to approach the pastor on these issues.

If I may, I'd like to remark on some of the questions and comments you brought up.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...he has had absolutely no one but God to lean on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The tone of this implies that God cannot help this pastor and he isn't enough! I am thankful the pastor has God to lean on. If we have to lean on a human, we can be let down very easily. God will never let us down and he would never give us anything we couldn't handle.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:13

Praise the LORD the Pastor can lean on God our Father!!!

Also, most IFB Pastors I know of have "Fellowship" Meetings. These are where groups of IFB Pastors get together to discuss issues and of course... fellowship. The are not answerable to any other Pastor, but they do discuss issues.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Conventions and boards can be of much help to a pastor and a church. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but they can also take away the autonomy from the Pastor. Although I believe the SBC has some fine people and pastors in it, it does have the same problem associated with all bureaucracies. They have a tendency to get bogged down and at times very little happens. I think it is important for a church to be able to deal with the issues the way they feel fit. The should not have to rely on a convention. They should only rely on the word of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A good accountability can help a pastor thru very tough situations and even stand to correct a pastor in wrong. Yes the pastor is the leader, but a good leader will be open to correction too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true, and this accountability should be the congregation. If you are in a congregation that doesn't allow accountability when a Pastor errs, then you should flee.

Dave

[RobertLynn]

In effect, all Southern Baptist churches are "independent" with regard to their denominational relationship. In theory, this relationship is voluntary. There is nothing to bind the church in any way to the denomination except a fraternal relationship.

In turn, the church can send "messengers", (not delegates, since they are not, again in theory, instructed by the church as to how to vote) to the annual convention meeting where the common business of tending to the denominations mission sending agencies and seminaries is conducted. Any church could stop its relationship with the convention tomorrow, simply by casting a ballot.

In recent years, I have come to know and appreciate what many independent Baptists experience all the time, and that is the sense of freedom that comes with being an independent church. The SBC has taken steps in recent years to "tighten the ship" so to speak, including the imposition of doctrinal standards as prerequisites for appointment to the trustee boards that govern the agencies and schools. The politics that have been involved caused a lot of grief in our congregation. We felt we had a rather unique ministry situation based upon our location. However, in tailoring our ministry to the needs of our community, we were accused of violating some "sacred SBC cows" and relegated to the outskirts.

The end result was our loosening of our relationship to the SBC (and the likely dissolution of it in the near future) and our participation in a fellowship of churches (CBF) that essentially organizes some common ministry interests among the churches and avoids doctrinal imposition. The concerns of the SBC, and issues we got dragged into without choosing to do so, no longer hang like a dark cloud overhead.

I appreciate the mention of the "Fundamentalist Traditions", Dr. Bob. I grew up in an IFB church. My dad always gave my beginners class Sunday School teacher a ride home after church, since her husband left after s.s., not appreciating the length of our pastor's sermon, often lasting until 12:45. We would pass the First Baptist Church, an SBC congregation that was probably as large as all the other churches in town put together, and the parking lot would always be empty (it was, after all, long past noon). My teacher would always remark, "Well, look there! The First Baptist Church has done turned out and gone home!" And I knew exactly what she meant!

[myreflection26]

I also must respectfully disagree. I have been on both ends of the this point of view so I have a better idea of why this is sorely needed. My grandpa is a part of the Nazarine church where they do have a board to go thru, and through the many years of service my grandfather wouldn't trade the support basis he recieved from that board for anything in the world. Also, I have close pastor friends with SBC and they also have bennifted greatly from their group of support pastors to help and love them.

The congregation is not...I repeat NOT a good source of accountability to a pastor and his family. A pastor and his family are in a "fishbowl" at the church they hold leadership in and there are expectations from them that are not put on any other member of the congregation. In the recent situation I have seen it is the congregation that came against the pastor and his family and unfortunately the pastor is very young and no other pastor or board or accountability to look to for help and encouragement. Yes God is great to lean on and our only true friend, but the bible does speak of having accountability to authority and it also serves as an encouragement basis too.

In many cases the congregation has no idea what the pastor and his family are going thru because they don't have that same calling on their lives, so the pastor really needs to have other pastors or pastor over him to help and support too when the pastor needs some time off as well. Sure there will be some understanding hearts sitting in the pews, but there will also be some pointing fingers too and that could easily rock the boat too much to result in church splits...I've been thru this more times than I care to even count.

Sue

[Barnabas H.]

Summary of all the above: They are "Independent." Now what part of this sentence you do not understand? Oh yah, the "independent" part. smile.gif

It is like this: (1) they are not governed by an other, (2) not requiring or relying on something or somebody else, (3) not easily influenced (and this is the most prevalent of all the prerogatives - in other words, they are hard headed). ;)

[PreacherDave]

RevKev and Fundie Dan,
Amen!
We're independent (small i) Baptists...
totally DEPENDENT(!) on King Jesus. We thank God for our brethren of many stripes (both past & present)--i.e. Reformed Baptist, Southern Baptist, Bible Church, even...Presbyterian!!--that we learn from. That is the beauty of being part of the universal Church.
Nevertheless, we're a LOCAL church; ministering to the LOCAL people. So we feel no need to confer with a board across the nation to do what God has called us to do, here.
Breaking the molds is necessary, often, to get the "mold" off many Christians! Once a Sunday meetings with fellowship & a meal after is very helpful that way. It is also a way to care for the needs of the poor that attend the service.
Our goals are primiarily life-centered worship of the Almighty God & service in His name. It doesn't take a billion programs in the church, or an ecclesiastical board to do that. Just hearty study of the Word, diligent prayer together, the Lord's Supper, fellowship and going about being His witnesses in the abilities & giftings He's given.
It takes a lot of the headaches out of "church."
An argument about this simplistic style is the pastor doesn't have to answer to anyone. Brother, I've been in denominations where the pastor was supported regardless of his immoral life, lousy preaching, egotism, corruption of doctrine, and the rest. Being part of a denomination is NO INSURANCE that the leaders of the church will be kept pure.
The only way for the church to have godly leaders is for the pastors to keep humble before their God & the people to support their undershepherds with much prayer; exhorting them in love if they get off track. It isn't a clergy-laity situation, if the pastor is a servant-leader. It is an older-brother leading his siblings in love. BIG DIFFERENCE in attitude! And it makes a huge difference in the way a church is run.

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: PreacherDave ]

[myreflection26]

Well I suppose to each his own in some things but personally I have grown up in independent churches and would never be part of it again. The pastor should have to answer to someone else as a spiritual father over him and not "own" the pulpit. This is of course my own thoughts and I understand other folks may not feel the same.

Sue

[Dajuid]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Well I suppose to each his own in some things but personally I have grown up in independent churches and would never be part of it again. The pastor should have to answer to someone else as a spiritual father over him and not "own" the pulpit. This is of course my own thoughts and I understand other folks may not feel the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the Pastor does have a spiritual father he as to answer to. That is God the Father. Scripture is very clear on this. A Pastor should only have to answer to God, and he fears the governing body more than he fears the Lord, then there is something wrong. A Pastor should not have to choose between what he believes God has placed on his heart and what a "spiritual father" tells him is correct.

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luke 16:13

Unfortunately, this is how the Catholic church performs. I know this sounds like a slam against the Catholic Church, but it only goes to prove a point. Once you start having to answer to someone other than God, you are bound by their interpretation of what is correct. Then who's to say they are correct, who do they answer to? Where does the cycle end? The Pope?

Sue, I am sorry you have had bad experiences in Independent Churches. But I am sure there are many like you who've had bad experiences in an [insert church here].

Dave

[myreflection26]

God is all of our ULTIMATE father to lean on and look up to but the bible also says we are to stay accountable to one another which is another reason why I believe being independent is actually unscriptural. The pastor may be spirit filled and led of God but he is also very human in a fleshly body who does perform in the flesh many times which is why I would guess God said to stay accountable so we don't fall and pastors are hardly an exception to this rule.

Please take no personal offense at that it is just really what I believe, bible based.

Sue

[Dajuid]

Sue, please understand, I take no offense to this what so ever! I believe we can have a disagreement and still have a good solid conversation. :D

[Ernie Brazee]

There is one glaring problem with a pastor having a pastor over him.....where does it end? When do you get to the top? Eventually there is one man who is the "head man" or POPE...who does he answer to?

This is one of the many problems with the church housed in Rome. One man can speak for God and every one must obey. He can not be questioned his word is rule.

Independent Baptist preachers answer to God, their authority is the Word of God and any Baptist preacher who is worth anything will tell his congregation to study the Bible on their own to verify what he is preaching.

One problem with IBF churches is the people want to be spoon fed and are too lazy to study on their own. Most congregations in America wouldn't know if their pator is preaching truth or not, as they haven't taken the time to study their Bible. They never take notes in church as they are too busy thinking about their activities of the day, which probably don't include God in any way. Oh they may here some race driver or professional athlete praise their god for the victory thinking they are talking about God the Creator, but the God of creation isn't really concerned about the outcome of
an athletic event. No, the god they are praising is the god of this world not the God who made this world. ( Oops! that is another thread hehe)

I have been a member of an IBF church for 37 years and it is working the way God meant it. God has bleesed us with 2 Godly pastors our former pastor, and out present pastor. We ahve also sent out other men to pastor and do mission work. They don't answer to our church, but each new church is also independent.

Missionaries remain members or our church, training men to pastor churches they assist in starting.

Yes IBF churches work very well when done God"s way. Here is the catch....it takes WORK, PRAYER, adn BIBLE STUDY! Yes independent churces have been the Lord's way since the beginning. He never appointed area directors, he never formed a convention or fellowship(another name for convention).

There are Bible conferences, preachers conferences, and mission conferences where independent pastors can gather and discuss various prblems, blessings and have a time to share God's blessings. These meetings have nothing to do with how each church conducts teir business. This is difficult for those in convention churches to understand as they have been led to believe conventions are neccessary fior the exixtence of missions. We send out our owm missionaries..NO BOARDS!! Yes, it can and is being done an what blessing to see the Lord lead and provide

Ernie Brazee

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have been a member of an IBF church for 37 years ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't be a good IFB if you have been a member of the same church for 37 years. You should have been in at least 5 churches in that amount of time smile.gif

[myreflection26]

I think we're missing the point of accountability. I'm not talking about having one main main over another and then one over him till you reach the top, thats called a buisness. I'm talking about being accountable to a group of other pastors as a support group who you will lean on and also who will come to you and say hey whats up with this why is this happening and pray with ya. There is no "top guy", but they all keep each other on track. God's word tells us to do this and I don't think he excluded pastors from this. Pastors are leaders in their chuch but that does not mean they are the top, it means that they also need accountability not just to God as we all have but to another brother in Christ...this is very biblical and I am not sure why it is so hard to understand.

Sue

[kimmy]

Does anybody out there familiar with IB churches think they are legalistic? My sister thinks it is a legalistic church. I attended an IB church for years that taught a woman should not wear slacks because of what Deuteronomy 5:22 says. Is it true, does the Bible teach that a woman cannot wear slacks? Could anyone shed light on this subject, please? :confused:

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kimmy:
Does anybody out there familiar with IB churches think they are legalistic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are some that are and some that are not. For many, "legalistic" means more standards that they want to live by. However, I do believe there is a true legalism.

As for pants, there is a thread currently addresisng this (somewhere -- I can't remember). In short, I do not believe it is wrong for women to wear pants. There is certainly a time when it is appropriate and a time when it is not.

On Deut 22:5 there are two problems: 1) It refers to crossdressing, not women wearing pants (since pants didn't even exist then); 2) It is a part of the OT Law which NT Christians were freed from (Rom 10:4; Gal 3; Gal 5). Those who use Deut 22:5 to support a "no pants" policy are guilty of very poor exegesis and even worse theology.

[myreflection26]

Kimmy,

I personally believe that any church that preaches any man made rules or holds to rules for thier congregation is very legalistic. I would agree though with the pastor that pants for women are not wrong but it also has to do with personal conviction.

Sue

[Nicole]

I have to respond to Sue's comment on the "Pastor having no one to lean on but God" in my opinion...that's all we need. Granted, even if the church is independant...they still have leadership within the church and you still have deacons and whatnot. There is a still a checks and balances system in place. The Pastor doesn't just decide things willy-nilly. There are congregational meetings. Subjects are placed before the congregation and voted upon where the majority wins. It's not just a church where the Pastor is ruler/decision maker/pastor. At least, not in any of the independant baptist churches I've attended. smile.gif

[livin'intheword]

:rolleyes: Sue, just because a church doesn't come under the leadership of a board, doesn't mean they are going to fall apart. Or that the pastor is shaddy and won't be corrected if need be. My church has lots of boards, they make up the walls and the floors, and our pews. God put my Pastor right where he wants him. And HE is the leader of my church. Anything he sould do to lead people OTHER than in the ways of the Lord he will answer to God himself for. And just because you're not part of a "board" doesn't mean that you don't have folks you can lean on. Well, there's this message board. Theres Christ Jesus. There's the Holy Sprit, and by all rights we should go to him first. After all Jesus did say " In my places I shall send another, the comforter." Theres the people in your church. And if you're any kinda good Pastor you're going to know the folks in your church. How much more do we need. The church is not a Government. As to the subject on Ladys and pants wearin'. While I don't feel comfortable in them, I'm slowly starting to wear more and more dresses. AS well as submitting myself unto my husband and (through clinched teeth) growing my hair out. I don't like it long, he does. He is my husband and I was put here to bring joy to his life. So I guess you could say that it's really up to you and your husband weither or not you can wear pants. Mine doesn't mind it. Although through my own prayer, and Gods leading when I do happen to throw on a pair of jeans I make darn good and sure I have a long T-shirt to cover my behind as well. :D
When you have a dress or skirt on, you're covered. Pants, well anyone that wants to stare, can. God MADEme for my husband. Even before I was concieved, I was designed for Matt. Why should I show his design to everyone else? smile.gif

-Paula

[ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]

[Kathy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nicole:
I have to respond to Sue's comment on the "Pastor having no one to lean on but God" in my opinion...that's all we need. Granted, even if the church is independant...they still have leadership within the church and you still have deacons and whatnot. There is a still a checks and balances system in place. The Pastor doesn't just decide things willy-nilly. There are congregational meetings. Subjects are placed before the congregation and voted upon where the majority wins. It's not just a church where the Pastor is ruler/decision maker/pastor. At least, not in any of the independant baptist churches I've attended. smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN to that sister! At my church, the Pastor has meetings with the male members of the church for various reasons...there is an accountability system and he even goes so far as to encourage the members to come to him WITH THE BIBLE if they believe he has erred or strayed from it.

By the way, the church has been around for oh, about 17 years now and doesn't appear to be falling apart in any way. God is good enough.

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

[Kathy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by livin'intheword:
:rolleyes: Sue, just because a church doesn't come under the leadership of a board, doesn't mean they are going to fall apart. Or that the pastor is shaddy and won't be corrected if need be. My church has lots of boards, they make up the walls and the floors, and our pews. God put my Pastor right where he wants him. And HE is the leader of my church. Anything he sould do to lead people OTHER than in the ways of the Lord he will answer to God himself for. And just because you're not part of a "board" doesn't mean that you don't have folks you can lean on. Well, there's this message board. Theres Christ Jesus. There's the Holy Sprit, and by all rights we should go to him first. After all Jesus did say " In my places I shall send another, the comforter." Theres the people in your church. And if you're any kinda good Pastor you're going to know the folks in your church. How much more do we need. The church is not a Government. As to the subject on Ladys and pants wearin'. While I don't feel comfortable in them, I'm slowly starting to wear more and more dresses. AS well as submitting myself unto my husband and (through clinched teeth) growing my hair out. I don't like it long, he does. He is my husband and I was put here to bring joy to his life. So I guess you could say that it's really up to you and your husband weither or not you can wear pants. Mine doesn't mind it. Although through my own prayer, and Gods leading when I do happen to throw on a pair of jeans I make darn good and sure I have a long T-shirt to cover my behind as well. :D
When you have a dress or skirt on, you're covered. Pants, well anyone that wants to stare, can. God MADEme for my husband. Even before I was concieved, I was designed for Matt. Why should I show his design to everyone else? smile.gif

-Paula

[ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like her already! LoL You've got spunk girl! Stick around, we can use ya!
:D ;) smile.gif

Kathy
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[livin'intheword]

:D :D :D
tongue.gif I still say it looks like a FROG!! Teehee

[Kathy]

The original question: What is an Independent Baptist?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>INDEPEND'ENT, n. One who, in religious affairs, maintains that every congregation of christians is a complete church, subject to no superior authority, and competent to perform every act of government in ecclesiastical affairs.

BAP'TIST, n.
1. One who administers baptism. This appellation is appropriately given to John, the forerunner of Christ.
2. As a contraction of Anabaptist, one who denies the doctrine of infant baptism, and maintains that baptism ought to be administered only to adults by immersing the body in water.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There ya go...LoL

Kathy
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[ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: Kathy ]

[livin'intheword]

Thank You (noun)
[ from the phrase "thank you" used in expressing gratitude]

LoL Thanks for clearing that up for us Kathy. :D :D Does your last name happen to be...Webster? tongue.gif tongue.gif (ribbet, ribbet!)

-Paula

[ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]

[Kathy]

Actually, my real name is Miss Right (but you can call me Always) *teehee*

tongue.gif

Kathy
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[rlvaughn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kathy:
[QB]The original question: What is an Independent Baptist?...

THANKS, Kathy, for bringing us back to the original question. This thread has gotten far afield. The definition goes to the rub - doesn't that really define almost, if not all, Baptists. Maybe all do not operate as independently as they could, but they are free to operate independently if they choose to do so.