PDA

View Full Version : RE: Contemporary Christian Music....


ATeenageChristian
12-31-2001, 07:29 PM
What do you all think of CCM? E.G. (Michael W. Smith, the Katinas, Zambia Vocal Group.) I know many think it is the 's playground, but it isn't. They sing Gospel songs that have encouraged me for a year now. Just want your opinions. :D

[Edited to correct the spelling in the subject line. Aaron. ;) ]

[ September 10, 2002, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Aaron
01-01-2002, 02:36 AM
New to the music forum, are ya?

Love43
01-01-2002, 09:56 AM
I'm almost AFRAID to get involved in this one. BUT...

When you listen to CCM, can you tell who they are singing to? I remember when Amy Grant REALLY was a Christian singer. She starting having A LOT of what they called "crossover" songs. They played the her songs on the rock stations and the "Christian" stations. It's like people had a choice they could be thinking about the Lord or their boyfriend when listening.
I don't think that all modern Christian music. But, if you can't tell who your singing too what good is it.

God is not the author of Chaos and a lot of the so called "Christain Rock" insites chaos. I don't mean the kind where people are beating each other or rioting. I mean the chaos inside your heart. Does the music bring you peace and closer to the LORD? David played his harp to calm Saul, not bring the house down.

I've seen Christian videos and with some of them look just like MTV. That's not Godly or Christlike. We are called to be separated from the world. Sitting on the fence between the World and the LORD is not.

ATeenageChristian
01-01-2002, 11:08 AM
I mean like Michael W. Smith and CeCe Williams, Paul Baloche, John Tesh..... :D

Mike McK
01-01-2002, 11:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John 3:16:
I mean like Michael W. Smith and CeCe Williams, Paul Baloche, John Tesh..... :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those guys are way too pop for my tastes but I've got to admit, Michael W. Smith is very talented.

It's pretty rare that I listen to CCM but I do like Randy Stonehill, Whiteheart, Daniel Amos, Steve Taylor, Rick Cua, The Choir, Buddy Greene, Rick Elias and early Julie Miller.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

Mike McK
01-01-2002, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Love43:
I'm almost AFRAID to get involved in this one. BUT...

God is not the author of Chaos and a lot of the so called "Christain Rock" insites chaos. I don't mean the kind where people are beating each other or rioting. I mean the chaos inside your heart. Does the music bring you peace and closer to the LORD? David played his harp to calm Saul, not bring the house down.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually, yes. There are many Christian songs God uses to speak to me and bring me peace.

"Breath of God", "Hymn", "Don't Cry For Me", "Love Will Find You" "Farther Along", "Were You There", "God Grew the Tree", "My Love Will Follow You", "I Will Follow" and others among them.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

ATeenageChristian
01-01-2002, 11:56 AM
What I don't understand is why so many people think CCM is rock. It is not rock. It is the best Christian music around. Those old hymns are boring to listen to. I like variety... :D

SaggyWoman
01-01-2002, 01:34 PM
I tend to listen to and enjoy a wide variety of CCM music, extended back to when the Jesus Movement in CCM first started.

It has ministered to me.

Kiffin
01-01-2002, 04:40 PM
John 3:16 said,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What I don't understand is why so many people think CCM is rock. It is not rock. It is the best Christian music around. Those old hymns are boring to listen to. I like variety <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, really CCM is Rock (or at least much of it is) but might be called Redeemed Rock. Calling it rock is not really a bad thing though many anti CCM's view it that way. There are many good groups that I like such as Switchfoot, Petra, Point of Grace, Caedmen's Call just to name a few.

Don't stop listening to the old hymns. Most CCM music is like Dorritos or Oreos...great to snack on but not something you would want for Thanksgiving Dinner. Most CCM songs lack theological depth while most Hymns have a more meaty theological depth than CCM. Balance is the key. I personaly also like Bill Gaither's Billy Graham Homecoming CD pt. 2 that has a mixture of Southern Gospel, CCM and Black Gospel. Variety is good! smile.gif

Odette
01-01-2002, 08:38 PM
I listen to CCM. I've read a couple of articles denouncing it...those articles ALSO denounce "Southern gospel, with its beats that rival CCM." Alas, I go to an African-American, southern church, and Southern, hand-clapping gospel is about all I get at church. So between church and home, I guess I'm in bad shape. :(

(Edited to clarify "Southern Gospel")
--Odette

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Odette ]

susanpet
01-01-2002, 08:45 PM
Give me the old hymns anyday. Boring? Never. And I also like southern gospel. But no music can take the place of the Word.
I guess there are some sincere CCM groups out there, but most sure don't look very Christlike. Just my thoughts.
Susanpet, VA :cool:

Mike McK
01-01-2002, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by susanpet:

I guess there are some sincere CCM groups out there, but most sure don't look very Christlike. Just my thoughts.
Susanpet, VA :cool:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the Bible said that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. Maybe we should try that.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

Ps104_33
01-01-2002, 09:46 PM
Worship wars -click here (http://www.christiantruth.com/worshipwars.html)

FaithRemains
01-02-2002, 01:43 AM
I love some of the old hymns, but also many of the new. Rich Mullins' songs are some of my favorites. I also like Newsboys and Geoff Moore. I know it's kind of old and don't know if any of you know it, but one of my favorites is "Why Should the Devil Have all the Good Music?" by Geoff Moore and the Distance.

Psalm 150 says to praise God with every instrument. The Psalms also say in many places to make a joyful noise unto the Lord.

Yes, much of the current so-called christian music isn't necessarily christian, but it is better than listining to much of the secular music out there. And there are many songs that are just a beautiful and uplifting as any hymn. Besides, every hymn was contemporary once, too.

DocCas
01-02-2002, 02:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John 3:16:
What I don't understand is why so many people think CCM is rock. It is not rock. It is the best Christian music around. Those old hymns are boring to listen to. I like variety... :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am afraid it is you who does not understand what Contemporary Christian Music is. Contemporary means "at the same time as." CCM is music which is popular with the world at the same time it is being used in the church. True CCM represents a confusion of the secular and the sacred. Of the things of God and the things of the world. Ezekiel alludes to this in 22:26, "Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them."

In my opinion, a person could only find the old hymns boring if they find Grace boring.<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Amazing Grace <LI>Grace Greater Than All My Sins <LI>Only a Sinner Saved by Grace <LI>Wonderful Grace of Jesus[/list]Of if you find the sacrifice on the Cross boring. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>And Can It Be <LI>At Calvary <LI>At the Cross <LI>Kneel At The Cross <LI>Near The Cross <LI>The Old Rugged Cross <LI>When I Survey The Wonderous Cross[/list]Or if you find Salvation boring. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>He Is Able To Deliver Me <LI>Jesus Saves <LI>Once For All <LI>Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus[/list]If you find the old hymns boring, your are going to hate Heaven! <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Face to Face <LI>Just Over In The Glory Land <LI>On Jordan's Stormy Banks <LI>Sweet By and By <LI>When The Roll Is Called Up Yonder <LI>When We See Christ[/list] smile.gif

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

qwerty
01-02-2002, 01:53 PM
Variety is difficult in any religious system.

Students of Christian history find that as the Holy Spirit pours out the new wine, many find it almost impossible to give up the old wine. "The old is better".

Do you know where your wineskin came from, and how old it is? I was talking to a friend last week about wineskins, and had this thought. A wineskin has a finite life; that is, it lasts for a time, but not forever. It's like if a wineskin had been passed down for 100 years, and a lot of value was kept attached to this old wineskin. The wineskin was new once, but now it is old, and cracked, and broken. It won't hold wine any longer. So, you are in the line to receive it, and your father gives it to you, in a ceremony. A lot of sentimental value is attached to this old wineskin, but you're thinking how nice it would be to get a new wineskin.

Each generation has those who want to receive new things from the Holy Spirit. There are "old" things that never really become old. That is, the Cross, God's love for us, etc. But how we do chruch, the songs we sing, the clothes we wear, are subject to change. Some can receive the new, while keeping the good that is old. But some cannot receive the new.

So there is tension. It is this way today, and it will always be this way.

Enjoy the music the Lord Jesus gives you to enjoy.

ATeenageChristian
01-02-2002, 07:35 PM
I do understand what CCM is. IMO, CCM is the best worship music out there. People, it isn't rock, ok? Please don't say it is rock. Thanks. :D

Brett Valentine
01-02-2002, 07:57 PM
. . .About 10 years ago, I had the chance to take part in a seminar on worship that was given at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Chicago. Pastors and music directors from Ohio to Chicago and points in between came. every aspect of a worship service was covered in this 2 day conference. We gave a seminar and workshop on comtemporary music and gear in worship. others gave presentations on performance of classical styled music, organ, a new hymnal, and seminars for the pastors as well. That Sunday evening, everybody who gave a seminar participated in a worship service where EVERY style of music was represented. It was presented in the form of a worship service where we took the "congregation" from the common area of the temple (more contemporary music) to the outer courts and all the way to the "Holy of Holies."

every style of music had it's place inthat service. We had a communion service as well. I can tell you I have never felt the presence of God as profoundly as I did that evening. We were all moved to tears. The musicians taking part and the "congregation" of pastors and music directors, and they represented churches and music of every style. Some of the material might not have been everybody's "cup of tea," but we all came with a spirit of unity and support of everybody else that, with grace, put up with differing styles of music and God honored it definitively for us! It was more about the spirit of unity and one accord than about any one style or the other.

It was at that point that I stopped worrying about any "style" of worship. I wil always look at content and theology of the song, and I will take into account any person's strongly held conviction, but I am not convinced there is a Biblical mandate for or against any particular "style" of music outside of each person's experiential context.

. . .now, I think "Come and Go With Me To My Father's House" is just a dumb song. . . sorry. . .

Oh, and if you find the hymns to be boring, just pick up one of the books on them and read their lyrics without the music and the story behind their writing. I can almost guarantee you will find something there that will cause you to appreciate some of them much more.

Brett :cool:

Mike McK
01-02-2002, 08:21 PM
John and Cassidy,

Some CCM is rock but there are many different kinds of CCM. Rock, pop, jazz, R&B, folk, country, etc.

Not all CCM is rock, just as not all mainstream music is rock.

I don't listen to CCM (or, at least, very little of it) because they don't make it in a style that I like.

I'd like to find an alt.country/Americana/No Dperession band in CCM. I don't think there are any out there but if there were, it would be hard to think of them as "rock".

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

susanpet
01-02-2002, 10:27 PM
Thomas Cassidy, you must have the same hymal our church uses. Great songs you listed! ;)
Susanpet :cool:

Brother Adam
01-02-2002, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
New to the music forum, are ya?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLOL! I think we have beat this topic to death, resurrected it once or twice and beat it to death again Aaron.

UNP
Adam

DocCas
01-03-2002, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John 3:16:
I do understand what CCM is. IMO, CCM is the best worship music out there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Fine. Tell me what you think CCM is. You say you know but you have not, as yet, defined your terms. If you don't wish to define your terms, may I assume you agree with my definition?

ATeenageChristian
01-03-2002, 07:53 PM
I think CCM is worshipping Our Lord Jesus Christ. So what if people think it's rock? That is their own opinion. CCM, is singing to God the Father. So what if people think it is rock? That is their own opinion\

Kiffin
01-03-2002, 08:44 PM
Many of our sacred Hymns such as "A Mighty Fortress" "Amazing Grace" were CCM for their day since they reflect popular music of that day when most music before then was Metrical Psalms.

There can be some valid criticism made of CCM but most critics focus on the superficial (Such as a singers long hair or the style of music). Many of the lyrics in CCM as well as Southern Gospel are superficial but that certaintly is not true of all. In CCM music I think the worst offenders are found in the Praise and Worship Genre and not in the Rock Genre. Nothing irrites me more than to hear a superficial one verse Praise and Worship song that has the depth of a nursery ryhme sang over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over again and again :rolleyes: SIGH.

rsr
01-03-2002, 10:13 PM
Kiffen:

I think you have it about right. This is an excerpt from National Public Radio:

"But at the time of its premiere, the "Messiah" was avant-garde and controversial. Though we so often here it in church today, it was originally intended for a theatrical audience. Handel was exploring many new concepts and could not have been certain how they would be received in either setting. The words were taken directly from the Bible, something many saw as daring, if not outright sacrilegious. Perhaps worse was the fact that some of the singers of such holy words were "theater people" and this "sacred oratorio" was to be performed in a playhouse."

I have sung "Messiah" for many years, and I find it to be the most worshipful experience imaginable (or praise experience, depending on your viewpoint).

Music -- yes, even church music -- does reflect its culture. If not, we'd be deprived of Handel and Bach and B.B. McKinney and The Second Chapter of Acts and still be singing Gregorian chants. Not that the chants aren't worthwhile.

DocCas
01-04-2002, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John 3:16:
I think CCM is worshipping Our Lord Jesus Christ. So what if people think it's rock? That is their own opinion. CCM, is singing to God the Father. So what if people think it is rock? That is their own opinion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So you have redefined the term "CCM" to mean what you want it to mean instead of what it really means, and you don't care that you are the only person who uses that definition? Sorry, but you get an "F" in English for today. smile.gif

ATeenageChristian
01-04-2002, 08:49 PM
Another person to add to the iggy list. Critism.....horrible.

ATeenageChristian
01-04-2002, 09:26 PM
Interesting website Tom. So you think only the KJV is accurate? I agree that it is probably the best and closest accurate Bible, but the rest(NIV, RKJV, RNIV, LB) are good too

Brother Adam
01-04-2002, 09:28 PM
Jesse, you really do need to learn how to take critism. Your going to get it the rest of your life.

Doc Cassidy was trying to point out that you have to look beyond your own definitions and keep an open mind. It was dry humor though ;) I get accused of that all the time, lol.

UNP
Adam

Mike McK
01-05-2002, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
So you have redefined the term "CCM" to mean what you want it to mean instead of what it really means, and you don't care that you are the only person who uses that definition? Sorry, but you get an "F" in English for today. smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is that any different from what you've done by implying that all CCM is rock?

Actually, as I understand it, a lot of people use that definition. I wouldn't necessarily define it that way, but I do think there's a lot of truth to it.

Many people, myself included, do use CCM as a part of their worship and find it very uplifting.

If you choose not to, I certainly respect that but I really disagree with such a broadbrush approach to the demonization of such a diverse kind of music.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

Ransom
01-07-2002, 06:57 PM
Thomas Cassidy said:

In my opinion, a person could only find the old hymns boring if they find Grace boring.

Or if they're poorly led, sung, and accompanied. Nothing kills good hymns like having them all done at exactly the same tempo and volume, accompanied by a fuzzy old organ and a piano always played in that same jingly-jangly style that went out of fashion at the turn of the LAST century.

Said churches never had any problem with over-enthusiastic worshippers raising their hands, clapping, or moving their feet. It's a hard thing to express joy to joyless music.

emopunker
01-15-2002, 12:20 PM
Good point, Ransom! I like what you said! Personally, I find older hymns and stuff great for meditation and introspection. I don't possess the vocal ability to sing a lot of them, so I usually contemplate and think about the words, which are often more profound and meaningful than mainstream lyrics in general.

However, and this MAY offend some people here, I really enjoy modern music used in a worship atmosphere. The Bible tells us to "sing a new song" unto him. And I'm don't know if I have all the English definitions and stuff down smile.gif , but "new" and "contemporary" seem to be similar. For me, modern music helps me to capture and express the emotions I feel for my "sweet, sweet Saviour", and that's why I think it's great. So... I guess I like a mixture of hymns and modern music. Hymns are great because of their depth and maturity, and modern music is also important because of the emotions it can capture, and because it can sometimes relate to people more.

Circuitrider
01-15-2002, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:
Thomas Cassidy said:

In my opinion, a person could only find the old hymns boring if they find Grace boring.

Or if they're poorly led, sung, and accompanied. Nothing kills good hymns like having them all done at exactly the same tempo and volume, accompanied by a fuzzy old organ and a piano always played in that same jingly-jangly style that went out of fashion at the turn of the LAST century.

Said churches never had any problem with over-enthusiastic worshippers raising their hands, clapping, or moving their feet. It's a hard thing to express joy to joyless music.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought this discussion was about music and not about song leaders and church pianos. I have been a believer for 37 years and in many fundamental Baptist churches during that time, and I can count on one hand the churches where the music was bad, boring or joyless, and I did not have to jump, shout, clap or get involved in some other type of emotional response to enjoy it. :D

DocCas
01-15-2002, 03:20 PM
Ransom just likes to contradict anything I post. smile.gif

DocCas
01-15-2002, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by emopunker:
And I'm don't know if I have all the English definitions and stuff down smile.gif , but "new" and "contemporary" seem to be similar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Let's see. Paul was a contemporary of Peter, so both must be "new?" Shakespear was a contemporary of the KJV of 1611 so both must be "new?" Uh, well, uh, I don't think so!

Contemporary means "at the same time as." In music the term refers to music being popular in the church at the same time it is popular in the world. It is about style, not date. smile.gif

emopunker
01-16-2002, 12:22 AM
To Thomas Cassidy:

What's currently in style in the secular world is usually "new" or at least "refurbished old stuff". So I think there is some similiarity, at least. :D

Oh, wait. Here's what Webster says:

Contemporary- 1. Existing, occuring, or living at the same time; belonging to the same period of time. 2. Of the present time; modern

New- 1. Of recent origin, production, purchase; having but lately come or been brought into being.

I guess they're kind of similar.

redwhitenblue
01-16-2002, 05:17 AM
Love43, no God is not the creator of confusion and yet we have churches who fight over the simplest things including music. This however does not make the music wrong, keeping in mind there are many different people and different tastes so not everyone will like one particular thing and agree all the time. Appearance, well that seems to be a regular christian descrimination that most christians don't get. Frankly I don't want to look like a christian if it means I must dress to fit the part...my acountanence better show for that part or there is something wrong with me.

As for Amy, what she does is with she and God and not me so whatever God is doing in her life, is up to God.

Karen

Grace
01-16-2002, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy
In my opinion, a person could only find the old hymns boring if they find Grace boring.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me?? Boring? Never!

Just kidding Mr. Cassidy. I understand what you are saying. So many of the old hymns let us sing about God's precious Grace and Mercy. I love them.

Dr. Bob
01-17-2002, 02:03 AM
Hymns certainly should not be so dull and boring that they put the congregation to sleep, nor so "high-faluten'" that its takes an opera buff to know what is sung.

Sad part is, the average ifb church sings about 50-75 songs in the hymnal over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over . . .

Make a list of the hymns AM & PM & Midweek (and SS opening if you have it). You will find yourself in a "special" church if the list exceeds 75 different songs in a year.

Daniel
01-17-2002, 10:28 PM
Dr. Bob--you have to make a concerted effort to have hymn variety. I suggest that all MOMs (Ministers of Music) have a devoted hymnal in their offices in which they write a date at the top of each hymn as it is used. That has helped me avoid this "75-and-no-more" repititon problem. It really keeps you on the the track to achieving variety.

Dr. Bob
01-18-2002, 02:01 AM
My plan as pastor of a mission ifb church was to categorize the songs - Worship, Seasonal, Praise, Testimonial - then subdivide that into fast/slow. Then I would plug these 4 types of songs (excluding invitation if I might have one) into a pattern for a service:

Welcome
Hymn #1 - Heavy-duty hymn of worship (Ex: This is my Father's World)
Pastoral Prayer
Hymn #2 - Pretty fast hymn of praise ()Ex: And Can it Be?)
Scripture
Hymn #3 - Song of testimony (Ex: Since I Have Been Redeemed)
Announcements
Offering
Special Music
Hymn #4 - Slow song of devotion (Ex: Near the Cross)
Message
Testimony verifying truth of Message
Closing hymn #5 - Fast, testimony so they go out humming (Ex: Trust and Obey)
(or invitation - typical bunch of 10-12 songs)

I did this for all 52 weeks of the year, trying to use a hymn/song no more than TWICE to insure great variety.

In the p.m. we often sang the same song for a whole month to learn it/teach it to the congregation, since most grew up in churches not singing these songs.

Karen
01-18-2002, 03:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
.........
Hymn #2 - .......
Scripture
Hymn #3 - Song of testimony (Ex: Since I Have Been Redeemed)
Announcements
Offering
Special Music
...........<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah ha! I caught you! :D :D

One of my pet peeves about a service is sticking the announcements in the middle instead of at the beginning or end.
It is always jarring to focus on worship,
have announcements about this and that, and then go back to worship again.
My church usually does announcements at the very end.

Karen

Cskokido
01-18-2002, 10:41 AM
Well…I am the new kid on the block, but I thought I might weigh in with my opinion on this subject.

I am reminded of a company I use to work for (who shall remain nameless). They had been around for years and had a set way of doing things. They had the mindset that it had worked well this long, there is no reason to change anything. They had a loyal customer base and things were going along just peachy for them.
Then one day they noticed that sales were dropping…and dropping…and dropping. Why?
It took awhile, (and a new CEO) to point out to them that they had not changed the style of their product since day one. It had appealed to a select group of customers, but those customers were…well… they were dying. Their product did not appeal to the new generation so sales were going down the tubes. They realized this almost too late.

I use this analogy because we are faced with the same dilemma. We have all of these old hymns and we expect them to appeal to everyone simply because we like them, our parents liked them our grandparents like them, etc. In the meantime people are dying daily and going to hell because we don't want to vary from the old way.
Let's face it, you will NOT get young people to your church singing "It is well with my soul". They just don't cause them to flock in to hear the gospel. Now I am not taking anything away from this type of music. I sing these songs with the choir, my wife is the church organist, and we love these old songs, but I love CCM as well. When in the car we may go over one of the songs we will be singing in the service coming up. OR we will tune into K-Love and belt out "My Redeemer" along with Nicole C Mullen (anyone that can listen to that and not be moved…I doubt their salvation), or my personal favorites Third Day. I love the music of those guys.

The point is, all of these songs have one thing in common. They all are singing praises to the Lord. I say anything that lifts His name and gives Him glory is OK in my book. After all, this is why we were saved to begin with…. To glorify the Lord.

My last thought is this. I work with a lady who is a good Christian (in words and deeds) and I ma not doubting her salvation. She attends an IFB church that is KJVO church, and she is very critical of the CCM that I have coming from the radio on my desk. In the meantime she has her radio tuned to the local country music station. Now I ask you…. which station is honoring God more?

So…there it is. As always, your mileage may vary. ;)

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Cskokido ]

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Cskokido ]

JonC
01-19-2002, 05:09 PM
Wow! This is a blast from the past. :D

My dad never liked contemp. music (but my mom did). Her fav. was Dallas Holm (Rise Again) and the Gaithers at the time. We even saw D.H. at 6 flags one summer. smile.gif

It was too much for my dad. :eek: Just didn't sound like Christian music. (He liked J.D. Sumner a lot though).

I like contempary music, but I feel a lot of it is entertainment rather than worship (which is not a bad thing, as entertainment goes). And there are some great worship songs out there, Sonic Flood gomes to mind.

Still, I love current gospel groups, like "Gold City", and traditional hymns also.

I'm really starting to miss the traditional hymns in my church.

Kathy
01-24-2002, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cskokido:
I am reminded of a company I use to work for (who shall remain nameless). They had been around for years and had a set way of doing things. They had the mindset that it had worked well this long, there is no reason to change anything. They had a loyal customer base and things were going along just peachy for them.
Then one day they noticed that sales were dropping…and dropping…and dropping. Why?
It took awhile, (and a new CEO) to point out to them that they had not changed the style of their product since day one. It had appealed to a select group of customers, but those customers were…well… they were dying. Their product did not appeal to the new generation so sales were going down the tubes. They realized this almost too late.

I use this analogy because we are faced with the same dilemma. We have all of these old hymns and we expect them to appeal to everyone simply because we like them, our parents liked them our grandparents like them, etc. In the meantime people are dying daily and going to hell because we don't want to vary from the old way.
Let's face it, you will NOT get young people to your church singing "It is well with my soul". They just don't cause them to flock in to hear the gospel. [snip] My last thought is this. I work with a lady who is a good Christian (in words and deeds) and I ma not doubting her salvation. She attends an IFB church that is KJVO church, and she is very critical of the CCM that I have coming from the radio on my desk. In the meantime she has her radio tuned to the local country music station. Now I ask you…. which station is honoring God more?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me understand this correctly...you are equating "old" soul stirring hymns to a company that has lost it's edge in marketing? I'm sorry, but there is no comparison. The church is not a marketing strategy...The church as a whole is not responsible for witnessing to people, WE ARE, individually.

Music should not define where you attend church, the doctrinal stand should be your utmost qualification in searching for a church.

I have found myself at the crossroads where CCM is concerned. I believed that the "old" hymns were boring. Since joining BB.com and reading in this very forum, I began to test the CCM I listened to...I found that MOST of the songs I listened to promoted a false doctrine and were charismatic in nature. I have successfully weaned myself off of CCM and I have found that I LOVE the old hymns! I want to learn each and every hymn in our Hymnal! So you see...what you may perceive as old and boring may be new and exciting if you've never taken the time to learn them and really read the words! Some of them are 2 minute sermons full of sound doctrine!

I hope I didn't come off too harsh, I just couldn't see equating the matter as you did. Welcome to the BB by the way!

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

Kathy
01-24-2002, 03:16 PM
P.S. That nice IFB lady you work with that you say listens to country music and is critical of CCM...well, that is just judgmental if you ask me...it's like saying "well she does that, so I'm gonna do this!" I personally would rather hear a song about love, country style, then false doctrine any day.

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

Cskokido
01-24-2002, 03:54 PM
Kathy,

It is OK. I did not take your post as harsh at all. I do think you might have read my post wrong though.

I do not find the "old" hymns boring as you say. If you will read my post you will see that I do enjoy them very much. My wife and I absolutly love to sing "Great is thy Faithfulness".
But, some young people feel that they don't fit in with the congregation because that kind of music just don't appeal to them. Most CCM is not compromising the gospel, just presenting it in a different format.
Music can be a powerful tool in reaching lost souls. You have to remember, some of the unsaved teenagers listen to rock music because they feel the artists are speaking for them. If we can get a young person into church, and they hear music that sounds similar to what they listen to, they are more apt to pay attention and hear what is being said.
On the other hand, if you play only hymns all of the time, they become bored, the mind starts to wander thinking how much longer is this going to be...when will they ever stop. I wonder what is on MTV right now... You just lost this person.
This is not saying not to play the old hymns, because they have a part in the service as well. They can stir the soul as much as some sermons.

Now in regards to the lady I work with. I was not being judgemental, just making an observation. Which is lifting up the Father more? A song singing praises to Him that has a fast beat, or one about your friends in low places. (Sorry Garth)

In His Service

Kathy
01-24-2002, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cskokido:
Which is lifting up the Father more? A song singing praises to Him that has a fast beat, or one about your friends in low places. (Sorry Garth)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I think you owe Mr. Brooks an apology!!! LoL!

I hear ya tho...I know exactly where you are coming from, and I didn't mean to imply that you thought hymns were boring. I believe tho, that what should grab a person's heart is doctrine, not music...salvation is not based on feelings and emotions, it is based on the rock solid truth of the Bible. Of course, your salvation experience can be emotional but it's not proof of salvation. The proof of salvation is in black and white in the Bible.

Either way, I appreciated your thoughts on this matter...I too used to feel EXACTLY as you do (just a few shorts months ago in fact).

I pray that we can all be a light in this dark world and rely solely upon the inspired Word of God to pass the gospel on to a dying world.

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

Cskokido
01-24-2002, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I pray that we can all be a light in this dark world and rely solely upon the inspired Word of God to pass the gospel on to a dying world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya know Kathy, that is a very profound statement. God can use each of us in different ways, but each of them to win the lost to His kingdom. Thanks for your thoughts as well. ;)

EFORC1
01-24-2002, 05:14 PM
Hi there Guys!! First of all I am a 47 year old Youth Director, wow that age is even hard to type :eek: , over the years I have really listened to all kinds of CCM and have come to the conclusion that there IS a lot of really good and inspirational music out there, I have also discovered that there is a LOT of music that is deemed CCM that is not Christian. I mean, that it dosen't really say anything about "Jesus". The music might say something about GOD, but whose GOD does it refer to. Nowadays there are so many people preaching a GOD, the question is, is it the Music GOD? the Money God? or is it referring to the Alha and Omega, the Father of my Lord Jesus CHrist. That should be the question. I have discovered that Jesus Christ is being preached in some of the CCM, and therefore, if it is, and it is winning and drawing our Youth closer to Jesus then so be it!! Praise God for another tool!
I enjoy good hymns, most by the way, are dated back in the 1800's, just think about what the older Christians in that time thought about the then new hymns like, The Old Rugged Cross, I'll Fly Away, and etc. when they were first introduced...makes you say to yourself hmmmmm...
Please, we older Christians need to be wise and listen to what the CCM industry is preaching. If it is Jesus, then Praise God that he has provided another tool. I so love our Youth, and Praise God for everything that he sends my way to help introduce them to a God that wants to introduce them to his SON, JESUS!

EFORC1
01-24-2002, 05:17 PM
;) Hey there "AteenageChristian" good thread and "Listen very Carefully" and may God Bless you"

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: EFORC1 ]

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: EFORC1 ]

Megs84
01-24-2002, 05:51 PM
I know we have gone on and on about this topic but i would just like to mention a few things. I am part of the praise team at my church who are in charge of leading worship on Sunday mornings. Don't get me wrong, I went through middle school singing hymns and they are really wonderful. The only thing is.... My church is bent on reaching a new generation. They secular music today is more upbeat and therefore to reach lost teens and other younger people you have to have music that they can identify with. If you take them from there secular music directly to old hymns THEY might find them boring and dull. Mind you that is not my opinion but i have many friends who feel that way. CCM is not there to mislead people, it is just the closest thing for new christians to keep them interested in the faith and to keep them thinking about God. I hope this wasn't confusing and i'm not trying to start an argument smile.gif Just wanted to share my thoughts.

superdave
01-28-2002, 11:29 AM
Good points on this thread!

Just like the hymnal, there is plenty of good music that would be considered CCM, and there is plenty of trash as well. You have groups that are Christian in name only, and you have Christian groups that don't play "Christian" music. You have to be very selective in what you choose to use in a worship service, but I don't think the style of the music is as much of a Biblical issue as some people say it is. Even the best preachers and teachers I have heard on music have to leave the realm of Biblical teaching and get into a bunch of humanistic, tradition laced mumbo jumbo to explain what styles of music are "God Honoring" They reveal their own ingorance in most cases, more than any Biblical truth regarding music. There is a balance somwhere, between throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and throwing out all guidleines on musical choice altogether, although I have yet to find it in a particular church. I guess I need to start my own. Think I'll call it Unrealistic Ideal Baptist Church, and change my name to Pastor Perfect :D

Daniel
01-30-2002, 11:01 PM
Seriously, ask the Holy Spirit what He thinks? If there's no unconfessed sin in your life, He will speak clearly in that still small voice. (If, however, you are hardened to sin and sinful things, you will NOT hear Him...you will be doing an exercise in futility...) So many of the music questions could be answered following this simple truth...but few will HONESTLY do it because they WANT WHAT THEY WANT regardless of what God thinks.

Helen
01-30-2002, 11:36 PM
Just a quick note here. Because I have been a deaf interpreter, and now because my husband is invited to speak in a number of churches, we have been to many and seen many types of services. Through it all, there is something that has really come to bother me -- when the music becomes entertainment.

There are churches with a band up in front playing loudly and the singers bouncing around just like in a rock concert. That is not church. That is entertainment. That might be fine at a youth assembly, but that is not what church is for.

I love the old hymns and I also love a lot of the newer songs. So it is not a 'type of music' objection, really. It is the way the music is used. Church is a gathering place for believers after being out in the weird, noisy world all week. We don't need more noise Sunday morning. We need a chance to breathe deeply, quiet down, and worship the Lord together, in both music and prayer, and then also listen to some solid Bible teaching.

I know I'm mostly dreaming. But there are churches, still, like this, and I love it when we end up in one in our travels. What is interesting is that it is in the western culture countries where the music becomes entertainment in many churches. We have never found that in churches that have to struggle to survive. The people there are simply grateful to be able to gather and to be together in prayer and learning and singing for a bit.

I'm seriously wondering if, in trying to 'reach out' to some, we are changing the message of the gospel? I have heard lyrics that make me cringe as far as doctrine is concerned...

Just my two cents' worth.

Barnabas H.
01-31-2002, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen: There are churches with a band up in front playing loudly and the singers bouncing around just like in a rock concert. That is not church. That is entertainment. That might be fine at a youth assembly, but that is not what church is for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that Helen! smile.gif

cuffy7
01-31-2002, 03:21 PM
Hello, I am 16 years old and pretty new to this site. I like much of CCM, but I'm finding that the lyrics get emptier and emptier every year. A few that never get old for me, though, are Stephen Curtis Chapman, Michael Card, Michael W. Smith and Phillips, Craig & Dean. I'm not as worried about the venue that is used to communicate the music, but rather the lyrical quality. With that said, hard rock, and much of rap and pop have consistently shallow lyrics. That is why I refrain from listening to it, not because of the style, per se, but the poor quality I associate with it. (and nothing can beat most hymns for lyrical quality, though, I recognize there are a few with doctrinal problems)

Mike McK
01-31-2002, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cuffy7:
...With that said, hard rock, and much of rap and pop have consistently shallow lyrics. That is why I refrain from listening to it, not because of the style, per se, but the poor quality I associate with it. (and nothing can beat most hymns for lyrical quality, though, I recognize there are a few with doctrinal problems)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure how you can say that hard rock has shallow lyrics when there are artists like Alice Cooper, Bride, WhiteHeart and many other Christian hard rock bands out there who have very well written, well though out, though provoking lyrics.

Perhaps you're just listening to the wrong bands.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

Mike McK
09-09-2002, 10:30 AM
bump

Abiyah
09-09-2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
[qb]I'm not sure how you can say that hard rock has
shallow lyrics when there are artists like Alice
Cooper, Bride, WhiteHeart and many other
Christian hard rock bands out there who have
very well written, well though out, though
provoking lyrics.

Perhaps you're just listening to the wrong bands.

Mike
http://www.keylife.orgAlice Cooper is a Christian artist? I thought it was
a wild, worldly extra-hard rock band! I had no
idea! And I didn't know the others you men-
tioned were Christian groups.

My tastes in music are fairly eclectic: I enjoy the
old songs as well as the new. But my CCM is
limited to what my station will play, and they are
very selective.

I have been amused and pleased, however, when
a young person has exclaimed over a "new song"
they have heard or found, and when I see or hear
it, I find myself seeing/hearing a song from the
long past, once put out to pasture, and brought
back into play by the youth.

Since starting to read this thread, someone early
in it mentioned the song, "Face to Face." I have
been humming it since. I love the old songs.
They often fill the bill for my musical hunger.
But contemporary songs fill that bill at other
times, as do classical hymns and anthems, the
old "Sunday school songs," and spirituals.

Lately, I have found myself learning to sing
the blues, with my "learning song" being "Some-
times I Feel Like a Motherless Child." I get a lot
of joy out of singing it many different ways,
filling it in here and there, changing the timing
and tune, changing the mood.

Music speaks to those deep places in all of us,
and each one has a diffeent idea of what songs
fill a need within them. While I admit that my
spiritual preferrences lead me far from certain
artists, a song is what the listener makes it.
Still, I find it interesting that musical tastes are
often used to disqualify certain music as
spiritually uplifting.

Specifically to Smoke Eater, you have mentioned
many groups and singers as singing Christian
music--singers I would not normaly bother to
listen to. I don't like Country music, but that is
mainly because I don't like the subject matter
and too many I had heard in my early years
could not sing on key. Furthermore, the nasal
quality was irritating.

But you have sparked my interest. I shall check
out some of these people you have mentioned.

Molly
09-09-2002, 12:14 PM
Great post,DocCas!!!(from the first page!) I agree. graemlins/thumbs.gif

[ September 09, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

Mike McK
09-09-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Abiyah:
Alice Cooper is a Christian artist? I thought it was a wild, worldly extra-hard rock band! I had no idea! And I didn't know the others you men-
tioned were Christian groups.Hey Abiyah

The evolution of Alice is kind of interesting.

"Alice Cooper" started as a "wild, wordly extra-hard rock band", just like you said, led by a young detroit singer named Vince Furnier.

Over time, people came to see Vince as "Alice", the same way some people thought that Ronnie Van Zandt really was "Lynyrd Skynyrd" and Ian Anderson really was "Jethro Tull".

He and the band accepted this, believing that "Alice" would be more popular as a charismatic individual than as a band.

Years later, when the band eventually broke up, Vince Furnier was awarded the rights to the "Alice Cooper" name by the courts.

He has gone by Alice since, even though his legal name is still Vince Furnier.

At some point, Alice's wife (who's name escapes me) became a Christian and encouraged her husband to turn to Jesus to help overcome a battle with alchohol.

At the urging of his wife and next door neighbor (and frequent golf partner), Pat Boone, Alice became a Christian in the early nineties.

He is an artist who is a Christian, but not necessarily a "Christian artist".

He still sings and acts in mainstream cirles but is svery outspoken about his faith in Christ and the lyrics from his "Dragontown Trilogy" ("The Last Temptation of Alice", "Brutal Planet" and "Dragontown") all reflect this.

"The Last Temptation" is an aligorical tale of a young man who goes to a carnival and is offered all sorts of treasuers and pleasures by the carnival barker, who represents the Devil.

I won't spoil the ending for you.

"Brutal Planet" and "Dragontown" goes on to tell the tale of a world that has rejected Christ and, as a result, has become a Hell on Earth.

When the rumours of his being saved first started to surface, I went around the internet to see what I could find out.

I found one fansite in which the guys went to see Alice in concert but left because "he wouldn't stop talking about Jesus".

According to Alice, who has always maintained that "Alice" is only a character, the post-conversion Alice is still the same, but Alice's message is completely different and I would be inclined to agree with him.

Specifically to Smoke Eater, you have mentioned many groups and singers as singing Christian music--singers I would not normaly bother to listen to. I don't like Country music, but that is mainly because I don't like the subject matter and too many I had heard in my early years could not sing on key. Furthermore, the nasal quality was irritating.

But you have sparked my interest. I shall check
out some of these people you have mentioned.That's great Abiyah. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. Also, Mr Curtis has excellent taste in that kind of music and I'm sure he would be glad to help you, too.

Mike

[ September 09, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

Abiyah
09-09-2002, 01:12 PM
Thank you, Smoke Eater! 8o)

Now, I have been totally disengaged from popular
music since the revelation of Keith Green, who
took his first place upon my 8-track player and
has morphed through cassettes to CDs. He is
yet to be dethroned in my home. So I do not
know anything musical, other than Christian
music, since Green's debut. Hence, my question:

Is the person known as Alice Cooper the guy on
the TV ad, wearing a garishly-painted black and
white face, who gives an excellent spoken mes-
sage on family values, with the last scene being
him jumping rope. Ttwo little children are turn-
ing the rope, and he jumps to the seesaw rhyme
which begins, "My name is Alice; I live in a palace . . . ."

Mike McK
09-09-2002, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Abiyah:
Thank you, Smoke Eater! 8o)

Is the person known as Alice Cooper the guy on
the TV ad, wearing a garishly-painted black and
white face, who gives an excellent spoken mes-
sage on family values, with the last scene being
him jumping rope. Ttwo little children are turn-
ing the rope, and he jumps to the seesaw rhyme
which begins, "My name is Alice; I live in a palace . . . ."That's the guy.

He talks about the commercial and, oddly enough, family values in an interview on Heaven's Metal magazine's website (it's still in their archives but I can't remember the web adress).

He's got a great quote in the interview something to the effect of "I may be Bela Lugosi on stage but what people don't understand is that I'm really Ward Cleaver at home".

The makeup is one of the character's trademarks although he looks strange enough wothout it.

I never will forget when Mad magazine ran a picture of what Alice Cooper would look like bald and it was the freakiest thing I'd ever seen.

There's an "Alice" thread around here in the music forum, somewhere, I think.

Abiyah
09-09-2002, 04:24 PM
Okay. I believe I may have also seen him, sans
makeup, with his family in one of those shows
which focuses upon celebrity homes. I don't
like those shows, so I only saw a few minutes
of it, with his son a the comuter and also the
family at the table for a meal. Something was
mentioned about what a straight, norrmal father
he is. Yes, he was interesting, even without the
makeup!

Well, I am going to have to at least listen to
some of his music. 8o) I think I am guaranteed
it will be out of my usual genres!

M Wickens
09-09-2002, 05:56 PM
A few random thoughts on this topic...

Can anyone show me the Biblical example for using music to reach the lost? I'll not argue that it can/should be used but as for making evangelism the main purpose of music extreme caution should be used.

Are the lost more apt to follow the flesh or Christ? Which type of music do the lost generally listen? That which appeals to the flesh or the spirit? Should we take their music, put God's Word's to it and expect it to be blessed. Music can be used for evangelism but it is dangerous ground.

Rock music cannot be Christian. Consider the relation rock has to music; where did the term "rock and roll" come from?

Yes, in times past people were steeped in tradition and resisted change but this is not the same. The issue now is that the music itself is proven to be harmful. The Communist regime would not allow Rock music as they saw that it encouraged rebellion. And it was the music not the words that encouraged rebellion. That is why Russians under that regime listened to English rock, not for the lyrics but the music itself.

Music does not have to be liked by us, it has to 1. Glorify God, 2. Instruct believers, 3. Edify believers and then at a stretch be used for evangelism.

Why is the music usually changed? Because, for example, little Jimmy is backslidden and not attending church. What is the answer? Let's take his music that in a backslidden state he enjoys and put our words to it! Does this seem like flawed logic to anyone else?

Aaron
09-09-2002, 06:11 PM
Hello, M Wickens. Welcome to the forum! You've opened a can of worms with that post! ;)

Good insights.

Mike McK
09-09-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by M Wickens:
A few random thoughts on this topic...

[qb][quote]Can anyone show me the Biblical example for using music to reach the lost? I'll not argue that it can/should be used but as for making evangelism the main purpose of music extreme caution should be used.There's not one but it's not prohibited, either.

I don't like the idea of making the music the attraction to the Gospel.

CCM'er, Mylon LeFevre has said many times that he considered the music as nothing more than a lure to get kids inside to hear the Gospel.

I hate that. It's awfully manipulative and I think that the gospel ought to be able to stand on it's own.

I do believe, though, that music is an acceptable art form for Christians and that there's nothing wrong with a Christian expressing himself and his worldview through music.

Are the lost more apt to follow the flesh or Christ?The Bible tells us that the carnal man is at emnity with God.

Should we take their music, put God's Word's to it and expect it to be blessed.You still haven't demonstrated that it's "their" music.

Rock music cannot be Christian. Consider the relation rock has to music; where did the term "rock and roll" come from?There are numerous blues songs of the thirties and R&B songs of the 40's and pre rock 50's (the most popular is "Roll With Me, Henry") that include the phrase "rock and roll" in some form and it's generally excepted to be an antiquated slang term for sex.

But are you judging an entire genre of music on it's merits or on what people call it?

The Communist regime would not allow Rock music as they saw that it encouraged rebellion.The communists also banned religion and persecuted Christians. What's your point?

And it was the music not the words that encouraged rebellion. That is why Russians under that regime listened to English rock, not for the lyrics but the music itself.You just said that they didn't allow rock music.

Music does not have to be liked by us, it has to 1. Glorify God, 2. Instruct believers, 3. Edify believers and then at a stretch be used for evangelism.Again, why can't you make music just for the saje of art?

Why is the music usually changed? Because, for example, little Jimmy is backslidden and not attending church. What is the answer? Let's take his music that in a backslidden state he enjoys and put our words to it! Does this seem like flawed logic to anyone else?I've followed CCM for roughly fifteen years now, was involved in the production end of CCM for about eight years and, for a brief, unfortunate time in the early nineties, even played CCM.

I've never run across anyone who held to this logic.

[ September 09, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

M Wickens
09-10-2002, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:

There's not one but it's not prohibited, either.Wouldn't argue that one with you. Music can be used for evangelism, just carefully.

You still haven't demonstrated that it's "their" music.Ever seen the scene in a night club where people are musically induced to seing their hips and the fleshly result of the music is easy to see? Surely music that is so sexually emotive cannot be right. I know there are many types of CCM but much of it is that way. Even the country music style stuff is that way. Garth Brooks has been quoted as saying concering country music "It is sex." Ever tried dancing to the traditional style of hymn music?

But are you judging an entire genre of music on it's merits or on what people call it? I am judging rock by its sounds and the effects it has on people.

The communists also banned religion and persecuted Christians. What's your point?

You just said that they didn't allow rock music.
The communists had a lot of wrong going on. But look at the reasons for opposing the things they did. Obviously going against Christianity is wrong. But why oppose rock music? Because they saw the effect it had on people, it encouraged rebellion.

Drugs are not permitted, illegally they still get through though. It may have been illegal, but rock music still got through.

Again, why can't you make music just for the sakje of art?
But does that art edify? I would listen to classical. People say that is hypocritical but not when you analyse the music. Classical can be relaxing and is proven in studies to encourage thought and is academically profitable. I AM NOT saying people who don't listen to other types of music are stupid. smile.gif But studies show positive results from certain music types but not others. (Rock etc.)

Also, art has moral responsibility also. "One mans art is another man's pornography."

I've never run across anyone who held to this logic.But that is the logic with many. "Let's use the style of music they like so that we get them to church"

ChristianCynic
09-10-2002, 03:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M Wickens:
Rock music cannot be Christian. Consider the relation rock has to music; where did the term "rock and roll" come from?

And where did the church "steeple" come from? Can that be Christian?

What is the answer? Let's take his music that in a backslidden state he enjoys and put our words to it! Does this seem like flawed logic to anyone else?

Was it "flawed logic" for Paul to tell the men of Athens by their alter To the unknown God-- one altar among many-- he was going to tell them about this God they worship in ignorance (Acts 17:23)?

Mike McK
09-10-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by M Wickens:
Ever seen the scene in a night club where people are musically induced to seing their hips and the fleshly result of the music is easy to see? Surely music that is so sexually emotive cannot be right.You're falsely assuming that that represents a large part of rock and roll and it doesn't.

I can't imagine that happening at, say, a Bottle Rockets' or Buddy Miller show.

I've seen people dancing at a reverend Horton Heat show and people used to dance when my band played, but neither could scarcely be considered "sexual".

I know there are many types of CCM but much of it is that way.Examples, please.

Even the country music style stuff is that way. Garth Brooks has been quoted as saying concering country music "It is sex."Bad example. Garth Brooks isn't country and shouldn't be considered any sort of authority on country music.

It's a bit like asking Iggy Pop to comment on what gospel music is.

Ever tried dancing to the traditional style of hymn music?Can't say I have but it's not made for dancing, is it?

I am judging rock by its sounds and the effects it has on people.But you're assuming that all rock music is the same and that music affects eveyone in the same way.

Drugs are not permitted, illegally they still get through though. It may have been illegal, but rock music still got through.And the criminalization of drugs has been a disaster. In the same way, the church waged a war against a cultural and artistic movement that it could never win when, instead, teh church could have made a huge impact for Christ.

But does that art edify?Yes, many of us would argue that it does. It edifies me, anyway.

I would listen to classical. People say that is hypocritical but not when you analyse the music.I think it could be hypocritical, in a sense.

After all, you can dance to classical music.

Hitler used classical music for evil purposes, just as some use rock music for illicit purposes.

The misuse of classical music by a few doesn't make it bad anymore than the misuse of rock by a few makes it bad.

Classical can be relaxing and is proven in studies to encourage thought and is academically profitable. I AM NOT saying people who don't listen to other types of music are stupid. smile.gif But studies show positive results from certain music types but not others. (Rock etc.)Studies do shoe that people who listen to classical music do tend to be better educated than average and they do show that abies forced to listen to classical music are, on average, smarter but, my education being in sociology, I would tend to think that there are other familial conditions at play here.

There was a study not very long ago that showed that people who listen to alt.country, singer songwriter folk (both of which would be labled "rock" by the anti-rock crowd here)are shown to be in disproportionate numbers college educated.

I don't remember where I saw that, but if I find it, I'll post it here.

"One mans art is another man's pornography."True, but the opposite is also true. What you would consider pornography, many of us would consider art.

But that is the logic with many. "Let's use the style of music they like so that we get them to church"Sorry, that's not what I understood your previous post to say.

I agree with you to a point, in that it's wrong to use popular music as some carrot on a stick, but I don't see anything wrong with offering people an opportunity to worship in a way that is culturally relevant, so long as it's in accordance with Biblical guidelines for worship.

[ September 10, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

Aaron
09-10-2002, 11:24 AM
M Wickens asked: "Ever tried dancing to the traditional style of hymn music?"

Smoke_Eater replied: "Can't say I have but it's not made for dancing, is it?"

Exactly.

As far as the difference between classical dances and dances to rock/pop/jazz, Michael Ventura said it this way. When you felt transported by Mozart or Brahms, it wasn’t your body that was transported. The sensation often described is a body yearning to follow where its spirit has gone -- the sense of a body being tugged upward, rising a little where you sit. And you almost always sit. And, for the most part, you sit comparatively still. The music doesn’t change your body.

The classical dance that grew from this music had a stiff, straight back and moved in almost geometrical lines. The folk dances of the West were also physically contained, with linear gestures. The feet might move with wonderful flurries and intricate precision, but the hips and the spine were kept rigid.

stubbornboy
09-11-2002, 12:22 AM
if rock and roll is not part of glorifing god then let it be.lets not put our own personal interest in what we may call gods work.i listen to rock not just christian rock but indie pop,deep house,classic rock as long as it cant affect your thinking and acts for god then theirs nothing to argue

Alliswell
09-11-2002, 02:35 AM
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Was that Stephen Curtis Chapman on the Billy Graham Crusade broadcast nationally last week?

He and his band did a song we have been singing in Praise and Worship time for several years, 'Open The Eyes Of My Heart, Lord' and the Choir sang, 'Shout To The Lord' and another contemporary one that we do and I can't remember which one.

I just tuned in to this thread tonight and read the whole thing.

I have been a church organist for years, and also was the accompanist for the Youth Choir when the Youth Musicals, such as "Tell It Like It Is" became popular.

We use the newest Baptist Hymnal which has some music that is fairly new on the scene, like "There's a Sweet Sweet Spirit In This Place"
"I Love You Lord",'Bless That Wonderful Name Of Jesus', 'Something About That Name', 'Majesty', and The Blood Will Never Lose It's Power" by Andre Crouch.

Our Youth Choir did a lot of Andre several years back: 'Everywhere', I Don't Know Why Jesus Loved Me', 'Soon and Very Soon', 'One Way To Heaven (The Freeway of God's Love)', and 'Through It All.' Most of these have a contemporary beat but I would not call it rock, and it definitely is Spiritual heart music that leads to reverence, joy, faith and committment. We did a contempory Psalms 19 also.

Is the Praise and Worship that has become a part of our services in the last few years some of what you are calling Contemporary?

It is more suited to Keyboard and Guitar than Organ and Piano and in the Youth Group they do it with sound track; but in the worship we do it. I usually let the piano do it and just sing along.

Some of the ones we do are:'Open The Eyes Of My Heart', 'Shout To The Lord', 'You Are The Air I Breathe', 'Sanctuary', 'I Can OnlyImagine','Your Grace Covers Me','I Could Sing Of Your Love Forever'and 'Change My Heart O God'.

If you'll notice, these are prayers!

Our young people are missionaries to the public schools and we regularly have professions of faith. It is amazing how many teen age boys are getting serious with the Lord.

We did Veggie Tales Jonah for VBS with music on sound track.

Then our Coed Youth Encampment did the Adult version of Jonah with a young ministerial student from ETBU doing the teaching. On the afterglow at our church that Sunday Night every student except a couple of sixth graders, who were the youngest to go gave a stirring testimony on the content of the Bible teaching!!

Someone posted that it is manipulative to lure them with popular music and the gospel should be able to stand on it's own.

My reply to that is how are you going to get them to come hear the gospel?

Parents won't allow much evangelism of their children one to one.

Our pastor for the last 8 years, whose wife is our Youth Director, has 3 children who graduated the last three years and all entered East Texas Baptist University on graduating. The youngest is already a contemporary Christian artist but that family has a talent for finding contemporary music that minister the Holy Spirit in a service, and Kendra loves to do the 'old folks' requests also.

We have a Christian radio station in Houston, and if I occasionaly listen, I turn it off when I stop, lest a passerby think I am tuned to a Heavy Metal Rock Station. Unless it has understandable words that minister the Holy Spirit to the hearers, there is no place for it in a service.

However, the Psalmist did write, "Play skillfully with a loud noise!" graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/saint.gif

Our pastor wisely tells the youth that we will do songs they love and leads them to also respect the great old hymns that have blessed to many generations.

That leads me to something that has puzzled me.

I do not rememember any of my contemporaries when we were growing up thinking that we had to have 'our' music. Even the popular music from before my parent's time was not boring to us.

I loved some of the old turn of the century popular music. My mother collected records of them, like: 'The End Of A Perfect Day','Just A Song At Twilight', 'When You And I Were Young, Maggie', 'Down By The Old Millstream', 'My Gal Sal', 'Love Letters In The Sand'(which Pat Boone revived),'My Blue Heaven', 'Carolina Moon', and even 'The Little Red Schoolhouse'. She always had youth around, and she had a portable wind-up antique Victrola that we would carry on picnics.

Popular music back then was so innocent!

Even the Country Western had such classics as 'Tumbling Tumbleweeds', 'Get Along Little Dogies', 'Empty Saddles In The Old Corral', 'That Silver Haired Daddy Of Mine','When The Bloom Is On The Sage', 'Water', 'Supper Time', and etc. Not a honky tonk nor adultery song among them.

I allowed my brother to inherit all of mothers old 78s, but I kept a few that are Reader's Digest updates of the old classic popular music, but still on 78s.

"We've come a long way, baby!" :eek:

Shalom :D

Alli

[ September 11, 2002, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Alliswell ]

Bro. Curtis
09-11-2002, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
[QUOTE]
That's great Abiyah. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. Also, Mr Curtis has excellent taste in that kind of music and I'm sure he would be glad to help you, too.

MikeWhy thank you, Mike. That's very nice. My dad got me into the 4-H club very early in life. Hank Locklin, Hank Thompson, Hank Snow, & Hank Williams. And all the Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, & Johnny Cash didn't hurt, either. My dad also had a very extensive collection of bluegrass gospel songs, and there was always great music at our house. I learned to love good music at a very young age.

BTW, thanx for the shout about Jorma's new record. I love it. And the song "What are They Doing in Heaven Today" is just beautiful.

Brett Valentine
09-11-2002, 03:41 AM
Has anybody seen the new Michael W. Smith "Worship" DVD? I caught the tail end of "Agnus Dei." Definitely a song with a "rock" feel.

Very simple, yet entirely directed toward God. As the song wound down, quieter and quieter, eventually to silence, the audience picked it up and started singing it, very reverently, to God. All on their feet, many with eyes closed, many with hands raised.

Can you tell me for sure God was not in that?

Yes, there's pablum out there, yes, there's fluff, but there IS substance out there. . .

". . .Holy, Holy are You, Lord, God Almighty. Worthy is the Lamb, worthy is the Lamb Who is Holy. . ."

. . .works for me,
Brett

Aaron
09-11-2002, 11:08 AM
stubbornboy? What a screen name! Welcome. smile.gif

Grizzly660
09-12-2002, 10:52 AM
Hey, sorry for joining the frey so late....

I've heard that today's current Hymns were placed to the music of tavern songs so that recent converts would be farmiliar with the music.
Makes sense to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any evidence of this. Anyone?

Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing! :D
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?
:rolleyes:
Thanks.

A Fiery Fundamentalist
09-12-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Grizzly660:
Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing! :D
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?
:rolleyes:
Thanks.I believe that your beat very likely would distract sinners from the message of the song. That is the beauty of hymns: everything about it, including the music, points to the lyrics, which often deliver the message in the clearest way possible. Your beat did indeed ruin the song by diverting attention away from the message to the groovy, cool, sensual beat. I grew up in CCM, and I now hate it with a passion. At the same time, my love for the traditional hymns deepens every day. If you wish to best use your music for church evangelism, then I would suggest learning the piano and/or organ.

Alliswell
09-12-2002, 03:42 PM
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

In my opinion not at all, Grizzly. I am an old timer but I would so much rather see a teenager singing an upbeat 'Amazing Grace' with all their hearts and energy, than to see this sullen degenerated look that is trying to take over the angry young generation!

Christians have always taken worldly things, raised them from the mire, and given them back to the Lord where they belong.

Shalom :D

Alle

Alliswell
09-12-2002, 03:48 PM
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Fiery, your post was loading while mine was being typed.

Did you read the post about the Organ distracting someone from worship?

I am an organist, and believe me, there are people who do not consider that spiritual.

I believe it is as old as TubalCain's clan in Genesis and they were not of the Godly line of Seth!

I try not to do 'High Church', but heart music that the congregation knows the words to, and can worship with.

Shalom :D

Alli

AdoptedDaughter
09-12-2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Alliswell:
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

In my opinion not at all, Grizzly. I am an old timer but I would so much rather see a teenager singing an upbeat 'Amazing Grace' with all their hearts and energy, than to see this sullen degenerated look that is trying to take over the angry young generation!

Christians have always taken worldly things, raised them from the mire, and given them back to the Lord where they belong.

Shalom :D

AlleWell put, Alle!
Did the beat ruin the song? No, I have always believed that the words to a song are much stronger than the beat to the song. CCM is there for people like you and me, people that desire to please God, but the taste in music is not old hymns, which I do enjoy singing, or pure instrumental, but something that you and I can tap our foot to!

That's just my opinion, though!

~Teresa~

A Fiery Fundamentalist
09-12-2002, 07:06 PM
I am a Baptist, not an Episcopalian. As a Baptist, I do not particularly enjoy having the "High Church" label slapped on me. I am a traditionalist, NOT a ritualist, although some seem to consider it one and the same, and it can be if one is not careful. But a contemporary worship service can be just as ritualistic and liturgical, if not moreso.
For one thing, it is not for us to conform to the ways of the world. I John 2:15 says, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." That pertains to the field of music also. While you may completely disagree with the statement I am about to make, but I believe that, when you carry the reasoning used by many to justify CCM in churches to its logical end, then you might as well open up a "Christian" strip joint. And believe me, the distractions there would be just about as distracting, though in a different way, as at a "Christian" CCM concert. Cry blasphemy if you like, but I strongly believe it to be the truth. And I do not think that many of you who like CCM are of the devil. :D

Molly
09-12-2002, 08:48 PM
Agreed. graemlins/thumbs.gif

Aaron
09-12-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Alliswell:
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Christians have always taken worldly things, raised them from the mire, and given them back to the Lord where they belong.

Shalom :D

Alle"Raised them from the mire" is the key phrase. That takes more than slapping spiritual words to a sensual tune.

Aaron
09-12-2002, 09:42 PM
BTW, Welcome, Grizzly660 and A Fiery Fundamentalist!

Brett Valentine
09-12-2002, 11:59 PM
Alliswell brings up an important point. While there are those who ligitimately find, say, drums, guitars, piano, organ, instruments, more contemporary forms of music, (insert yours here), there is no universal standard among the varying groups.

For those who find the CCM genre to be worldly and distracting, but love a good hymn done by a more classical orchestra, there are those who will consider THAT to be too worldly and distracting and require (and restrict)instrumentation solely to organ, and there are those who go even farther and require the unaccompanied voice for true, pure worship.

So to that last group, ANY instrumentation is wrong, and the rest of us find ourselves on the otherside of thie line together. . .

So in practice, it seems that the principle is universal, but the application is personal.

Brett

P.S. One of the most uplifting CCM songs I know: For the Sake of the Call" by Steven Curtis Chapman. Here's the chorus:

". . .We will abandon it all, for the sake of the call.

No other reason at all, but the sake of The Call.

Wholly devoted to live and to die for the sake of The Call. . ."

[ September 13, 2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Brett Valentine ]

Alliswell
09-13-2002, 02:50 AM
smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Fiery, I hate labels and I used the label 'high church' and truly apologize if you took my comment as criticism of you!

What I meant by that was just formal music that our country church would not relate to. One of my favorite young pastors is also a talented instrumetalist and can make Bach sing with joy, but, though I enjoy it, our people wouldn't.

I don't want to be like David's wife Michael, daughter of King Saul who despised his worship!

We will celebrate our 61st wedding anniversary on the 27th so I could be a crabby old lady and say we never did it that way and it's wrong, but I have seen the true worship on the faces of teens doing, say Amazing Grace, in an upbeat style, and furthermore, I see their lives as they witness and love other young people to Jesus.

Psalms 100 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all you lands. Serve the Lord with gladness; come before His presence with singing!

The bagpipe rendition of Amazing Grace is very touching for funerals but is not the joyful noise the psalmist is seeking!!

I do understand your concern about some of the dancing and mindless lyrics of some so called Christian music.

Shalom :D

Alli

Grizzly660
09-13-2002, 10:02 AM
Fiery,
You stated, "...when you carry the reasoning used by many to justify CCM in churches to its logical end, then you might as well open up a "Christian" strip joint."

Well...I sincerely disagree, but let's carry out the reasoning by many to discredit CCM: The music itself is intrinsically evil or "of the devil."
What's evil about it, that the notes and rhythm patterns are similar or identical to those played in the world? That would mean that we couldn't use any of the notes or rhythm patterns that comprise worldly songs; In other words MUSIC would be removed from Church all together. That doesn't make any sense, does it? That would be like saying that ACDC's songs are mostly in the key of F, so we can't sing any Hymns in F. (Don't forget that your favorite Hymns derived their music from Taverns and were shaped through history by the Blues and Slave-songs.)

Our logical criteria boils down to preference. Let's apply Biblical criteria to the music we listen to. Psalms 66, 81, 95, 98 and 100 say that it must be "joyful." These scriptures also claim that this "noise" that we make must be directed to The Lord. (By this standard, many Hymns would be removed from our assemblies.) These scriptures also encourage the use of wind, string and percussive instruments. Why, what(words) and to Who we sing is the key to unlocking what God desires. What Glorifies him will have the why, what and who all in line with his Word. The music isn't even an issue.

Now, you can't tell me that a sleepy-eyed church singing "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me..." monotone and half-bored is preferred by God over an energetic, drumset and guitar-accompanied rendition of the same song, where the Church claps and taps their foot or lifts their hands and praises God. In the same vein, if organ music is your "cup of tea" and you can sing the song with joy, to the Lord...Keep it up!

Music for the sake of music is worthless and hollow, no matter what label you put on it, but music for the glory of God is honorable and pleasing in God's eyes. IMO

Pete
09-13-2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Grizzly660:
I've heard that today's current Hymns were placed to the music of tavern songs so that recent converts would be farmiliar with the music.
Makes sense to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any evidence of this. Anyone?

Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing! :D
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?
I have heard the tavern story, but have my doubts...I just can't imagine Hyfrydol or Slane being used in a tavern smile.gif If I find the tavern they are used at I will pick up there more in the taxi ;) One of these days I'll look it up.

Although I'm an old rocker (slowly learning better ;) ), I don't think Amazing Grace is the song to be doing it to. Based on the description given I think I would have headed for the door.

The worst I have ever heard Amazing Grace sound was at an "Alphabet Soup" Church (AOG/CLC/ETC) one night. They played it to tune of House Of The Rising Sun, for a minute I thought it was The Animals themselves playing. YUCK! What a slaughter. I didn't ask later wether it was pre-arranged, or if someone up the front noticed people sitting down in the Church or something, but after they finished that they did the first verse again a cappella in the original tune.

I must admit when I hear Christians praising God a cappella I have to consider trading in my guitars and joining the "no instruments" side ;)

Oh, P.S. to the House Of The Rising Sun story. For years mum has told me the story of my brother singing Isaac Watts' "Alas And Did My Saviour Bleed" to that tune at a "down and out" mens group when he was 14. A couple of years ago I had had enough of hearing about it and wanted in on the action, so I got together with him and did it at Church, with just myself playing acoustic guitar softly. heh heh and to cut a long story short its times like that I think about staying on the "instruments side of the force" ;)

Pete

Mike McK
09-15-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:

Your beat did indeed ruin the song by diverting attention away from the message to the groovy, cool, sensual beat.Were you there or did I miss something?

Mike

Mike McK
09-15-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Grizzly660:
Hey, sorry for joining the frey so late....

I've heard that today's current Hymns were placed to the music of tavern songs so that recent converts would be farmiliar with the music.
Makes sense to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any evidence of this. Anyone?Hey, Grizz,

The only one I know of for sure is the childrens' song, "Jesus Loves the Little Children", which is taken from an Irish rebel tune called, "God Sve Ireland" and goes:

God save Ireland
Say the heroes
God save Ireland
Say we all
Whether on the scaffold high
Or the battlefield we die
For what matter when
For Ireland dear we fall

Or, if you're an Eagles fan:

"We're all part of Andy's army
We love all our boys in green
(or, "We're on our way to the final game")
And we'll really shake 'em up
When we win Lombardi's Cup (yes, we know it's not a "cup")
For Philly has the finest football team"

There's also a Flyers' version but you get the idea.

Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing! :D
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?
Thanks.No, I think it's great.

My pastor plays guitar, too and often sits in with us.

One of our favorite things to do is to sing Amazing Grace to the tune of the Eagles' "Peaceful, Easy, Feelin'"

The way we do it, the verses are the traditional words to Amazing Grace with the chorus being:

"Now, I got a peaceful, easy feelin
'Cause I know You won't let me down
Now that You've set me on solid ground"

It's been a while so I'm a little shaky on the words to the bridge, but I think it's:

"Oh, Lord, You search my heart and know me
You are the lover of my soul
By Your cross You have redeemed me
By Your grace I am made whole"

It's really pretty and it's nice to shake things up once in a while.

Hymns, pretty as they are, are not scripture.

They're just the words of men and if you have a different take on the songs, go for it.

Mike

PS.

Another great way to do Amazing Grace is to the tune of the Hollies' "Bus Stop".

[ September 17, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

A Fiery Fundamentalist
09-17-2002, 03:43 PM
Grizzly, you said, "What's evil about it, that the notes and rhythm patterns are similar or identical to those played in the world? That would mean that we couldn't use any of the notes or rhythm patterns that comprise worldly songs; In other words MUSIC would be removed from Church all together. That doesn't make any sense, does it?" In all Christian charity, you do not make sense! You are saying that the notes and rhythms in the world's songs of today are the SAME as the hymns? I doubt that your knowledge of music is truly that deficient. Trust me, I am a musician myself, and I know that you are dead wrong. I do not intend to make this post tedious by giving a three-hour lecture on musical theory.

"(Don't forget that your favorite Hymns derived their music from Taverns...) Admittedly, Charles Wesley's original tune for "Jesus, Lover of My Soul" was derived from an English tavern tune. However, your statement is totally absurd. For one thing, how do you know what my favourite hymns are? I do not recall posting my favourite hymns. :confused: Do you recall Fanny Crosby? She wrote over 5000 hymns and, to the best of my recollection, she composed many of her hymn tunes herself. The others were written by recognized devout Christians who sent their tunes to her so that she could write lyrics for them. Here is a challenge for you: post a substantially-sized list of hymns that you say were derived from tavern tunes. I will see if any of my favourite hymns are among them.

"Our logical criteria boils down to preference. Let's apply Biblical criteria to the music we listen to. Psalms 66, 81, 95, 98 and 100 say that it must be "joyful." These scriptures also claim that this "noise" that we make must be directed to The Lord. (By this standard, many Hymns would be removed from our assemblies.)" You seem to have fallen for the CCM world's claim that most of the hymns do not speak to God and should thus be ruled out of modern worship. I can go through any given Fundamentalist hymnal and give you a LONG list of hymns that address God directly. I can also go through a good-sized "Praise & Worship" songbook and give you an even longer list of songs that do NOT address God. I agree with your line of reasoning not in application to the hymns, but to the fact that those CCM songs should be removed from our worship. The hymns that do not address God still bring glory to Him and are, in that way, "unto Him." Most of the traditional churches I know sing their hymns joyfully, but without the sensuality that marks your style of worship. I will close this post now, as I believe that I have covered your other remarks as well.

Grizzly660
09-18-2002, 10:13 AM
Fiery,
Let me further clarify: Notes are notes and Rhythm is rhythm. A note or rhythm or tempo cannot be definitively declared "evil." Given the disagreements among many well-intended Christians, it is not clear at what point the combination of those notes and rhytms becomes "evil" if they do at all (and I say they do not.)

I apologize for writing "your" but you know I was speaking in generalities. :rolleyes:

I agree that some CCM does not meet up to scriptural criteria, but some of "your style of worship" would be too.

We can't call something "evil" if God doesn't, especially if it's not "sin" and my intentions are to glorify God. If singing a Michael W. Smith song is a vehicle for me to worship, then what's it matter if the song has a fast tempo, has electric guitars and a drum-set?

We won't agree on this issue and that's absolutely fine. We do agree, however, that God is worthy of ALL praise and honor. That's priority over all this, as I'm sure you'll agree.

God Bless!

AdoptedDaughter
09-18-2002, 12:35 PM
Has anyone talked about convictions? One may havea conviction on such a topic as music, now, does that mean that it's a sin? No, it simply means that it is a conviction of yours for whatever reason, but that does not mean that everyone else will have that conviction, so we can't neccessarily say something is a sin if it is a matter of the heart, now can we?

~Teresa~

Bobster
09-18-2002, 03:31 PM
[Dear Sir,

You did not specify Baptist as your religion in your profile. This forum is for baptists only. Please review the Baptist Board Posting Rules.

http://www.baptistboard.com/postingrules.html

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]

[ September 18, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

A Fiery Fundamentalist
09-18-2002, 03:36 PM
[Fiery,

Since I deleted your "foe's" posts, I couldn't very well leave your response to him.

Just wouldn't be fair.

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]

[ September 18, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Bobster
09-18-2002, 03:41 PM
[Please see the edition of your first post.

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]

[ September 18, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

A Fiery Fundamentalist
09-18-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Grizzly660:
We won't agree on this issue and that's absolutely fine.I am well aware of the distinct possibility that you mentioned above. I am grateful to learn that you are not trying to force your views on me; that is not the case with nearly all of my Christian friends and relatives on a variety of topics. I apologize if, in defending my convictions rather passionately as I usually do, I come across as trying to force my views on you. :D

latterrain77
09-20-2002, 05:54 AM
Hi all! According to Psalm 33: 3, the best praise music will be NEW songs, NEW styles/renditions performed LOUD and NOISY. They may also be performed on guitars (Psalm 33: 2 "ten string instruments"). It is obvious that loud, noisy guitars, playing NEW music describes exactly what some call "contemporary" Christian Rock, Rap, and Pop music. "Old Time" songs such as the ones that many seem to prefer are NOT new (unless performed in new styles). "Old Time" musical styles are NOT new either. smile.gif

latterrain77

"Sing unto him a NEW song; play skilfully with a LOUD NOISE" (Psalm 33: 3) - the emphasis is mine

[ September 20, 2002, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

Bro. Curtis
09-20-2002, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by baptistforever:
Has anyone talked about convictions? One may havea conviction on such a topic as music, now, does that mean that it's a sin? No, it simply means that it is a conviction of yours for whatever reason, but that does not mean that everyone else will have that conviction, so we can't neccessarily say something is a sin if it is a matter of the heart, now can we?

~Teresa~Apparantly there are Christians who are not convicted that homosexuality is a sin.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

I'm sorry Theresa, but that isn't a very convincing argument.

RaptureReady
09-20-2002, 10:12 AM
I agree 100% with DocCas. If you think the old hymns are boring, I would hate to hear what you think about the old King James Bible. Music was made to praise, honor, and glorify God, not the artist. I myself have watched clips from the CCM artists like Carman and watched how the people in the crowds go crazy when he comes on stage and when he is singing and jumping around. I don't believe that this is spiritual at all. What I do believe is that the spirit of the antichrist is moving more and more each and every day to confuse Christians on what is right and wrong. Someone told me that if you took the words away from the music, would it sound pleasing to the Holy Spirit. I think not since over half of CCM would sound like the world. Here is a good site for further information: http://www.av1611.org/othpubl.html#Crock
God Bless! smile.gif

Mike McK
09-20-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by HomeBound:
I agree 100% with DocCas. If you think the old hymns are boring, I would hate to hear what you think about the old King James Bible.Honestly?

Beautiful at times and sometimes the most appropriate version for certain occasions but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry (You may fire when ready - Mike dives behind the couch)

Music was made to praise, honor, and glorify God, not the artist.Yes, but I don't think precludes music as an artform.

I myself have watched clips from the CCM artists like Carman and watched how the people in the crowds go crazy when he comes on stage and when he is singing and jumping around.Carman's kind of a special case. You have to consider who his audience is. It's mostly made up of people from the Word of Faith cult, who are especially given to hero worship.

I don't believe that this is spiritual at all.If you consider CCM "ministry", then I would say that you have a good point, but it's not ministry. It's entertainment.

What I do believe is that the spirit of the antichrist is moving more and more each and every day to confuse Christians on what is right and wrong.That's an interesting idea. Could you elaborate on how the antichrist's actions realte to CCM?

Someone told me that if you took the words away from the music, would it sound pleasing to the Holy Spirit.Does this mean that God is not honored by instrumental music?

I think not since over half of CCM would sound like the world.There is a song we used to sing in my old church called (I think) "I Should Have Been Crucified" which is done to the tune of the old country standard, "There Goes My Everything". When I hear "Jesus Loves the Little Children" I immediately think of "God Save Ireland", the song from which the tune of "Jesus Loves the Little Children" is taken.

There are dozens of songs we sing in Baptist churches that remind me of "worldly" songs. Does this mean we shouldn't sing them anymore?

{qb] Here is a good site for further information: ...
God Bless! smile.gif [/QB]That's not a good site at all, Homebound. We've demonstrated many, many times before here that they engage in promoting urban legends as fact, shoddy journalism and outright lies to make their points.

Among other things:

1) They claim that the Eagles are Satanists and that their name comes from their devotion to native American religions. They also claim that the building on the cover of "Hotel California" is really Anton Levay's Church of Satan.

The truth: They're not Satanists. They have denied this over and over and have admitted that they did nothing to discourage the rumors that they were Satanists because their manager thought it was good publicity.

Their name comes from an incident on a tour as Linda Ronstadt's backing band in which they ended up in the same hotel as the Philadelphia Eagles football club, who were in town for a game. The Eagles had taken over the hotel and the only way for Glen Frey to get room service was to call the desk and claim to be one of the Eagles. He and the other members of the band thought this was funny and the name stuck.

The building on the covers of Hotel California was the old Bevrly Hills Hilton, which had fallen into disrepair and that the band used as a metaphor for the disrepair California had fallen into as a result of the "sex, drugs and rock and roll" lifestyle. The song "Hotel California" is not about a drug trip or a Satamic occurance, as the folks on your website would have us believe. The song is a strong statement against materialism, casual sex and the rampant drug use that the band and many of their friends found themselves caught up in.

2) Alice Cooper is a Satanist and got his name from the disembodied spirit of a 17th century witch through a Ouija board.

The truth: Just as Ronnie Van Zandt is not "Lynyrd Skynrd" and Ian Anderson is not "Jethro Tull", Vince Furnier is not (orm at least, was not) Alice Cooper.

Vince Furnier was the leader of a band who took their name from a character in an old, 50's B horror movie and made up the story about the witch and the Ouija board, again, for publicity.

When the band broke up, the rights to the name "Alice Cooper" were awarded to Furnier who kept the name. Over time, people gradually associated him with the name "Alice" and he ran with it.

Today, as folks on Baptist Board have heard me repeat 300 times, Alice is a born again Christian who is performing music with overtly Christian themes and has become an outspoken voice for Christ, as well as the unborn.

3) Brian Wilson hears voices. Therefore, he is evil.

The truth: There is, perhaps, no other fact in rock and roll so well known as that Brian Wilson suffers from schizophrenia and a host of disassociative disorders.

To label him "evil" or "Satanic" because of his illness is not only untrue, but cruel.

4) John "Ozzy" Osbourne and Jimmy Page are satanists.

The truth: According to Ozzy's wife/manager, Sharon, "Ozzy and I have no religious affiliation, Sataic or otherwise."

Jimmy Page has admitted that the rumors of his Satanism revolved around his real interest in spiritist, Alistir Crowley, but staunchly denies any involvement in Satanism.

5) They condemn the Christian rock band, Petra, for recording the KISS song, "God Gave Rock and Roll to You" yet Petra's version was recorded years before the KISS version.

6) They take a quote by bad Christian lounge singer, Carman, "It's all about the money" out of context in order to make it appear that he's condemning a Newsboys venture, yet their own footnotes show that Carman's own quote was made two years before the Newsboys thing.

7) They list David Pack, Barry Maguire, Bill Withers, Bob Dylan, Buddy Holly, David Wilcox, Phillip Bailey, Elvis Presley, Eric Clapton, Grand Funk Railroad, Jimmie Davis, John Berry, Johnny Cash, Kansas, Social Distortion, U2, Van Morrison, and, as only the whackos they are can do, the Cookie Monster as being "Extremely anti-christ people".

The truth:

David Pack: Christian.
Barry Maguire: Christian (one of the first mainstream artists to proclaim his Christianity publicly)
Bill Withers: Christian (later became a minister)
Bob Dylan: Professed his Christianity in the early seventies and made several gospel albums. Even though he no longer speaks publicly about his beliefs, he is active in Messianic Christian circles.
Buddy Holly: Raised in a Christian home. Grew up singing in church. Don't know if he ever publicly professed Christ but he's hardly an "extremely anti-christ person".
David Wilcox: Christian. Even made a few Christian albums in the 80's
Phillip Bailey: Christian. Made several Christian albums in the 80's and early 90's.
Elvis Presley: Professed Christ. sang gospel music all his life. Through mental illness and drug addiction, fell into a sinful lifestyle. Hardly a shining example but even less so an "extremely anti-christ person".
Eric Clapton: Professed Christ in the early 70's and included many overtly Christian songs in his days with Blind Faith and solo. Turned away from Christ but, following the death of his son and largely through the ministry of Christian rocker, Dana Key, has expressed interest in Christianity.
Grand Funk Railroad: Two thirds of the band, Mark Farner and Donnie Brewer are Christians. Farner even had a successful CCM career in the 80's and early 90's.
Jimmie Davis: In addition to being the governor of Louisiana, he was a minister and prolific gospel songwriter.
John Berry: During his bout with cancer in the early 90's, John Berry was a terrific witness for Christ.
Johnny Cash: One of the most outspoken Christian artists ever. Several gospel albums and wrote an excellent biography of the Apostle Paul called "The Man in White"
Kansas: With Kerry Livgren, Dave Hope, Michael Gleason John and Dino Elefante, all Christians in the band and with a good chunk of their songs containing Christian (or at least Christian-like) lyrics, it's hard to understand why they would be considered "extremely anti-Christian people".
All the above, except for Dave Hope, have gone on to successful careers in gospel music.
Social Distortion: While their style of music may be irritating to the more conservative Christian fundementalist, with 2/3 (Mike Ness and John Maurer) of the band being Christian, I think we can cross them off the list.
U2: Might be Christians, might not. They're lyrics are very sympathetic to Christian ideals, though.
Van Morrison: While he would appear to have turned away from Christianity, he did at one time profess Christ and even had a couple of CCM hits in the 80's, including "Whenever God Shines His Light"
The Cookie Monster: He's made no profession of faith but, despite spending time in Muppet rehab to battle a crippling cookie addiction, he seems to want to set an example for children that I think would be in line with Jesus' teachings.

Christians should be ware of his occasional colaborator, Elmo, who many theologians and Vegas odds makers believe may be the Anti-Christ.

I could go on and on but you get the point and we've all been through this a million times before.

The only thing that surprises me about that website is that they haven't had the pants sued off of them.

These guys love to quote the Bible but they always forget the verse that says that "The Lord hates a lying tongue".

Mike

[ September 20, 2002, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

AdoptedDaughter
09-20-2002, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Apparantly there are Christians who are not convicted that homosexuality is a sin.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

I'm sorry Teresa, but that isn't a very convincing argument.Well.......you see Bro. Curtis, there is a difference between homosexuality and this issue of music. Ready for it?........

Homosexuality is in the bible defined as a sin, music, well.....I haven't seen any verses that says this music issue is a sin, or what styles of music is. This is called a gray area, and with gray areas we need to use our convictions, so, what you and Aaron, and many other people are posting about are your convictions, are they not?

~Teresa~

JonathanDT
09-20-2002, 03:40 PM
First I’d like to address an earlier question.
DocCas, you have correctly defined CCM using a dictionary, however many people don’t use the dictionary definition. Personally, when I think of CCM I think of the soft-rock/pop of artists like Michael W. Smith, Sandi Patty, Michael Card, ect. I don’t think of Christian rock/alternative music as CCM. Audio Adrenaline, Skillet, Newsboys, Supertones, The Insyderz, I consider them part of the Christian rock scene, but not CCM. However, For the purpose of this post when I say CCMers I will be using the dictionary definition.

Originally posted by M Wickens:
A few random thoughts on this topic...

Can anyone show me the Biblical example for using music to reach the lost? I'll not argue that it can/should be used but as for making evangelism the main purpose of music extreme caution should be used. No, I can’t tell you. But it certainly doesn’t say NOT to use it. I’m not sure where you get this “making evangelism the main purpose of music,” but most music from CCMers that I listen to is first to Glorify God, though often evangelism is an ulterior motive. I generally avoid bands/singers that I don't think put God at the center of their music. The one exception is POD, I simply enjoy some of their songs, and they are very talented.

Are the lost more apt to follow the flesh or Christ? Which type of music do the lost generally listen? That which appeals to the flesh or the spirit? Should we take their music, put God's Word's to it and expect it to be blessed. Music can be used for evangelism but it is dangerous ground.To answer your questions: the flesh, everything from rock to classical, and the flesh. Not sure what your points are.
Why wouldn’t it be blessed? Your sadly mistaken if you think that it is a new thing to take a secular style of music and use Christian lyrics to set it apart as a tribute to God. In fact, they used to take it a step further, not just taking the style, but an actual melody. Today CCMers at least write their own melodies, unless of course it’s a parody.

Rock music cannot be Christian. Consider the relation rock has to music; where did the term "rock and roll" come from? I honestly don’t know, slightly before my time. :D However, I’m not sure why you say there can’t be Christian rock. Just because of its origins? Did you know Christmas was originally a pagan holiday? Using your logic, we’d better stop celebrating it.

Yes, in times past people were steeped in tradition and resisted change but this is not the same. The issue now is that the music itself is proven to be harmful. The Communist regime would not allow Rock music as they saw that it encouraged rebellion. And it was the music not the words that encouraged rebellion. That is why Russians under that regime listened to English rock, not for the lyrics but the music itself. I realize this isn't popular, but Christ was a rebel!! The trick is who and what he rebelled against. He rebelled against the Pharisees and their legalistic laws. He rebelled against Satan's earthly "kingship," and he rebelled against sin itself. Being a rebel in and of itself isn’t wrong, I’m commonly considered a rebel at the local high school, because I do things different then the status quote. I’m a hardcore Christian, I’m homeschooled, I work hard to keep my vocabulary clean, I won’t play sports on Sunday, ect. Wow. I’m terrible. tongue.gif

Music does not have to be liked by us, it has to 1. Glorify God, 2. Instruct believers, 3. Edify believers and then at a stretch be used for evangelism. I agree with #1, the Bible says many times to praise God with singing. What verse are you basing #2 on? For #3, I can agree with this on principle, but I’m not sure where your basing this Biblically. And the last I think is optional. It CAN be used for evangelism, but certainly doesn’t HAVE to.

Why is the music usually changed? Because, for example, little Jimmy is backslidden and not attending church. What is the answer? Let's take his music that in a backslidden state he enjoys and put our words to it! Does this seem like flawed logic to anyone else?Yes that seems flawed, but it is also flawed to think that the reason you gave is the sole reason for CCM.
There are certainly problems with CCM, but they arise from individuals, when they lose site of Christ, when they "sell out" for the money, when they get drunk from being on stage or simply famous and forget that they are but ministers of our Lord. I'm sure that Smoke Eater could list some more, but you get the point.
If you are going to say that CCM absolutely cannot glorify God simply because of what it is, then what else can't and why? Can I play baseball to the glory of God? Can I do my job to his glory? Can I do my school to his glory?

Your obviously intelligent and sound like you love the Lord, so I can’t wait for your response. smile.gif
God Bless,
~JD

RaptureReady
09-20-2002, 04:39 PM
- Honestly?

Beautiful at times and sometimes the most appropriate version for certain occasions but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry (You may fire when ready - Mike dives behind the couch)

Smoke_Eater, as you may know by now, I believe the av1611 KJV to be the errant, infallible, inspired true Word of God. Yes, there are words in the bible that we do not use today, but I don't need another translation to help me figure out the meaning. You didn't agree with me on the last site about music, maybe you will agree with this site about archaic words: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_04.asp

- Carman's kind of a special case. You have to consider who his audience is. It's mostly made up of people from the Word of Faith cult, who are especially given to hero worship.

I'm not really familiar with the Word of Faith cult. Is this the same as the charismatic movement?

- That's an interesting idea. Could you elaborate on how the antichrist's actions realte to CCM?

I believe the antichrist is in the church, new bibles, music, and anything else outside the pure Word of God (av1611 KJV). Also if you believe that all bibles are the Word of God, then why would you make a statement like... but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry, that is God's word that you are saying is boring. WOW!

- Does this mean that God is not honored by instrumental music?

Not when it sounds like the world.

- There are dozens of songs we sing in Baptist churches that remind me of "worldly" songs. Does this mean we shouldn't sing them anymore?

I can safely say that so far the songs in my church have not reminded me of worldly songs. I did have a friend of mine let me hear a tape of "Jars of Clay" which the first song reminded me of "Hootie and the Blowfish, and "Crash Test Dummies," but this may be part of that Word of Faith cult you were speaking about early.

- That's not a good site at all, Homebound. We've demonstrated many, many times before here that they engage in promoting urban legends as fact, shoddy journalism and outright lies to make their points.

Who is we and what part of the site are you talking about? And why would a site put out false information, knowing that it would be researched?

- Today, as folks on Baptist Board have heard me repeat 300 times, Alice is a born again Christian who is performing music with overtly Christian themes and has become an outspoken voice for Christ, as well as the unborn.

Well Smoke_Eater, I am new to BB and have not heard it 300 times. Praise God if Alice Cooper is saved, maybe he can be a good witness for hollywood.

By the way, how did you put my comments in the quote box?

JonathanDT
09-20-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by HomeBound:

Smoke_Eater, as you may know by now, I believe the av1611 KJV to be the errant, infallible, inspired true Word of God. Yes, there are words in the bible that we do not use today, but I don't need another translation to help me figure out the meaning. You didn't agree with me on the last site about music, maybe you will agree with this site about archaic words: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_04.asp I'm not going to get into the KJV debate, however about that site. First, consider the source. Look around at the rest of the site. Second, they are basically comparing apples and oranges.

I'm not really familiar with the Word of Faith cult. Is this the same as the charismatic movement?
...
I believe the antichrist is in the church, new bibles, music, and anything else outside the pure Word of God (av1611 KJV). Also if you believe that all bibles are the Word of God, then why would you make a statement like... but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry, that is God's word that you are saying is boring. WOW!Would you rather he lie? IMHO, it's an archaic, hard to understand version of the Word of God, though certainly not without it's merits. Truthfully, I have a hard time enjoying and learning from God's word when I'm spending most of my time and energy translating the English into something that I can comprehend. And this is from someone who has grown up with every version of the Bible since I was a small child. Imagine what a new, less educated Christian must go through.

Not when it sounds like the world. Why not? Chapter and verse please. smile.gif

I can safely say that so far the songs in my church have not reminded me of worldly songs. I did have a friend of mine let me hear a tape of "Jars of Clay" which the first song reminded me of "Hootie and the Blowfish, and "Crash Test Dummies," but this may be part of that Word of Faith cult you were speaking about early.
Who is we and what part of the site are you talking about? And why would a site put out false information, knowing that it would be researched?Because they seem to forget that they aren't the only ones in the information age who can easily verify their sources. :D Truthfully, I think that they're like many secular "journalists", who care more about their "cause" then the truth. It's sad that something like that can take a hold in Christ's church. :(

By the way, how did you put my comments in the quote box?You see at the top of my post, their are different icons you can click? Their's profile, email, PM, edit, and on the far right there's a button that says quote.

RaptureReady
09-20-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Why not? Chapter and verse please. smile.gif Romans 12:2

[Just tightening up your UBB code. Don't worry, you'll learn it fast. Aaron]

[ September 20, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Aaron
09-20-2002, 07:45 PM
Hello, JonathanDT and Homebound. Welcome to the Music Ministry Forum. graemlins/thumbs.gif

Homebound, to begin learning UBB code, you can click on the following URL. smile.gif

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=ubb_code_page

Aaron
09-20-2002, 07:51 PM
I believe the av1611 KJV to be the errant, infallible, inspired true Word of God. Yes, there are words in the bible that we do not use today, but I don't need another translation to help me figure out the meaning.

Let's keep the discussion on track and not digress to a discussion of the KJV vs. Modern Versions here.

There is a forum on the Baptist Board dedicated to just such a discussion:

Bible Versions/Translations (http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=4)

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron

[ September 20, 2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Mike McK
09-20-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by HomeBound:
Smoke_Eater, as you may know by now, I believe the av1611 KJV to be the errant, infallible, inspired true Word of God. Yes, there are words in the bible that we do not use today, but I don't need another translation to help me figure out the meaning. You didn't agree with me on the last site about music, maybe you will agree with this site about archaic words:Homebobund, I read the link you included and there are some interesting points in it, but I don't see anything that precludes us from interpreting modern usage words into the translation, so long as the translation itself is accurate.

Please don't misunderstand, it's not the word of God itself that I find boring. It's "the power of God unto salvation" and I can't think of anymore exciting thing than a love letter from God Almighty telling us that He wants to reconcile with us.

No, it's the expression of God's word usung 600 year old language that I have a hard time getting a hold of.

Like I said, there are times when the KJV is the more appropriate version but there are times when it's almost painfully dry.

I'm not really familiar with the Word of Faith cult. Is this the same as the charismatic movement?Not exactly.

It's a movement within the charismatic movement.

There are plenty of charismatics who hold to orthodoxy, but there is a growing movement that stresses "experience over exegesis" as Spurgeon would say.

Think Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, Marilyn Hickey, etc.

Even though the birth of the movement is largely credited to Kenneth Hagin, it actually goes back to Essek W. Kenyon and William Branham (the bulk of Hagin's writings were largely plagerized from these two.

Whatever you may think of the teachings of Kenneth Hagin, these two were so far out in left field that they made Hagin look like a piker.

Although the idea of a "born again Jesus" (the idea that Jesus literally became the embodiment of sin by nature, rather than merely taking our sin upon himself and thus, having to go to Hell and suffer for His own redemption before he could redeem us) had been around for nearly two thousand years, it was Kenyon and Branham who really popularized it in the modern day church.

There are several false teachings of the Word of Faith cult that we can argue over(by the way, WoF is not generally recognized as a cult. I believe they are because of their views of the nature of all three members of the Godhead) but the idea of (a) a born again Jesus, (b) a corporeal, physical God, (c) nine persons in the Godhead are unacceptable to me and, I hope anyone who takes his doctrine seriously.

Also if you believe that all bibles are the Word of God, then why would you make a statement like... but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry, that is God's word that you are saying is boring. WOW!Please see my first point.

Not when it sounds like the world.OK. See, this is where the problem lies. In all of the time I've been here and in all of the posts we've tackled this issue, we still haven't determined what "wordly" music is.

I can safely say that so far the songs in my church have not reminded me of worldly songs....And that's the second thing. Music is a very person thing. It affects everyone in different ways. Like I said earlier, anytime I hear, "I Should Have Been Crucified", all I can hear is Eddy Arnold singing "there goes my only possession..."

Just like what may be fine with me may be offensive to you, what may be fine to you may be offensive to another.

I did have a friend of mine let me hear a tape of "Jars of Clay" which the first song reminded me of "Hootie and the Blowfish, and "Crash Test Dummies,"Yuck! I don't have have a problem with being derivative, as all music is to one point or another, but for crying out loud derive from something better than Hootie, although the Crash Test Dummies do have a few songs I like.

but this may be part of that Word of Faith cult you were speaking about early.Not as far as I know.

Who is we and what part of the site are you talking about? And why would a site put out false information, knowing that it would be researched?Specifically, I was talking about the part of the site in which they deal with rock and pop music.

Off the top of my head, I don't remember who all was in on the discussions but they're still around here somewhere if you'd like to look them up.

The reason they say these things even though they know that people can look it up for themselves is because they know that people won't.

They know that, even though we say we want to be Bereans, we're too lazy to really do it.

They know that your average Christian (particularly us fundies) would just as soon take the word of a fellow Christian, especially if they agree with us.

They're also counting on the fact that your average Christian is woefully ignorant of pop-culture.

I think they're counting on the fact that most people who go to their site are already biased against popular music and are looking for an excuse to say, "Aha!".

Well Smoke_Eater, I am new to BB and have not heard it 300 times. Praise God if Alice Cooper is saved, maybe he can be a good witness for hollywood.Welcome. I have a lot of respect for someone who comes in and dives right in to the most controversial topic on the board. graemlins/thumbs.gif

I'm sorry if my "300 times" statement sounded curt.

From everything I've heard, Alice has been an outstanding witness for Christ. He says that he spends most of his time at home in Pheonix with his family and close to his church, so I don't know what his impact in Hollywood is, but from everything I've heard, he is a strong Christian voice in his community.

By the way, how did you put my comments in the quote box?At the top of everyone's posts, there are a series of icons "Profile", "Edit", "Quote", etc.

Just click on quote to include someone's entire statement and edit it from there.

To break someone's statement's up into smaller points, like I did with yours, just put "qb" and "quote" in brackets (sorry I can't show you but the computer thinks I'm giving it a command) at the beginning of the statement and "/qb" and "/quote" at the end.

I have to do this because I have a terrible memory and I don't want to misquote anybody. It's also easier to address someone's specific concerns this way (especially for me. I'm easily distracted smile.gif )

Mike

Aaron
09-20-2002, 09:10 PM
Please see my post just above the previous one. ;)

Bro. Curtis
09-21-2002, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by baptistforever:
Well.......you see Bro. Curtis, there is a difference between homosexuality and this issue of music. Ready for it?........

Homosexuality is in the bible defined as a sin, music, well.....I haven't seen any verses that says this music issue is a sin, or what styles of music is. This is called a gray area, and with gray areas we need to use our convictions, so, what you and Aaron, and many other people are posting about are your convictions, are they not?

~Teresa~If you read my post, you would not see me making a judgement on music. I am saying, as an undecided spectator, your post did very little to convince me towards your viewpoint.

RaptureReady
09-21-2002, 09:09 PM
Thank you for the welcome Smoke_Eater. Aaron, sorry about getting off track, I will try to keep the discussion on the topic at hand. I guess music and other bibles are a hard topic for everyone to agree upon and I guess it may lie upon personal convictions for some people. For me, I did a test(just bear with me). Me and my boy(4 yr old) where riding down the road listening to the old hymns. After the song was over, I turned the station and scanned across a CCM station and my son started to bob his head. I then turned it to a rock station and he continued to bob his head. I then turned it back to the old hymns station and he stopped bobbing. I did this about 4 times and every time he bobbed his head. What did this mean? I took this as the flesh likes the beat, moving music and the spirit likes the calm less or no beat music. This really nailed the nail in the coffin for me about CCM.

JonathanDT
09-22-2002, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Why not? Chapter and verse please. smile.gif Romans 12:2
</font>[/QUOTE]Ok. However, millions of athiests drive cars, so we shouldn't. Millions use computers and the internet, sometimes for not so good reasons. There are secular choirs, so all choir music should be banned. Elton John plays the piano, so no more pianos in church. The organ is used in baseball stadiums all across the country, so no more organs. Heck, there are even accapela groups and choirs, so you can't even sing accapela. Do you see my point? You can't ban something simply because it also exists or was even created by the secular world.


...I guess music and other bibles are a hard topic for everyone to agree upon and I guess it may lie upon personal convictions for some people. For me, I did a test(just bear with me). Me and my boy(4 yr old) where riding down the road listening to the old hymns. After the song was over, I turned the station and scanned across a CCM station and my son started to bob his head. I then turned it to a rock station and he continued to bob his head. I then turned it back to the old hymns station and he stopped bobbing. I did this about 4 times and every time he bobbed his head. What did this mean? I took this as the flesh likes the beat, moving music and the spirit likes the calm less or no beat music. This really nailed the nail in the coffin for me about CCM.
That's a rather unscientific test you ran there, way too many variables to come to a decisive conclusion about why he bobbed his head, and what it means. First, why does bobbing his head mean his flesh likes it? Are you saying that bobbing, or even taking it to the extreme and actually dancing are Biblically wrong? Second, he's only 4, certainly not trained. In the old hymns it can sometimes be hard to pick out the beat, it simply isn't as pronounced. I've studied music for a little while now, and can find the rhythm in most music, however that's after a good deal of music lessons. My point is, maybe if your son had the training to recognize the beat he would bob his head to the hymns too, I sometimes find myself absent-mindedly patting my leg to the rhythm of the hymns. And you can't say a beat is bad, because ALL music is both melody and rhythm, and if you say that a pronounced beat is wrong, where do you draw the line? When it's noticeable by me? By your average listener? When you can easily clap to it? Just when there's an actual drum set? Third, why conclude that his spirit liked the hymns? Because you saw no reaction? Because you like the music? Too often even "science" is taking a predetermined conclusion, and then fitting the "evidence" to match this conclusion. I've done a couple science projects, and it's very tempting to squeeze the evidence to support your hypothesis. smile.gif

Have you ever heard "I can Only Imagine" by Mercy Me? If you only listen to one CCM song ever in your life, this is the one. I can just see David while still a shepherd sitting, watching his sheep while singing this song. smile.gif I truly believe that if all CCM songs had this...quality and power in so many aspects, the CCM debate wouldn't exist, as people would recognize the power and beauty of it.

AdoptedDaughter
09-22-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
If you read my post, you would not see me making a judgement on music. I am saying, as an undecided spectator, your post did very little to convince me towards your viewpoint.My viewpoint? Ummmm....I haven't posted my viewpoint in quite a while, and my post was not to try to sway you towards my viewpoint, even if I was trying to prove a point. I think that this debate is overdone and it's been done too many times. There is so many better things that we could be doing with our time than debating whether or not we should listen to CCM when it's your convictions, in a gray area such as this, will tell whether or not you should.

Have a blessed Sunday, though!

~Teresa~

Mike McK
09-22-2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by HomeBound:
For me, I did a test (just bear with me). Me and my boy (4 yr old) where riding down the road listening to the old hymns. After the song was over, I turned the station and scanned across a CCM station and my son started to bob his head. I then turned it to a rock station and he continued to bob his head. I then turned it back to the old hymns station and he stopped bobbing. I did this about 4 times and every time he bobbed his head. What did this mean? I took this as the flesh likes the beat, moving music and the spirit likes the calm less or no beat music. This really nailed the nail in the coffin for me about CCM.Hi Homebound,

Like I said earlier, there are five billion people on the planet and no two of them react to music the same way.

When I hear certain hymns, a great deal of emotion wells up inside me. Does that mean that the hymns appeal to my flesh?

I don't think so. I think it means that they connect with some feeling or idea inside me.

I would nod my head or tap my feet to hymns, too, except that, as a rule, they are so rigid as to discourage any sense of celebration.

(BTW, in spite of that, I actually prefer hymns in most church settings and I often read from an old hymnal during my devotion time at home)

On the other hand, I'm not sure I understand how simply not bobbing your head shows that your "spirit" likes a certain kind of music?

There are a lot of songs (in fact, Metallica's "One" is playing in the bacxkground right now) that I couldn't imagine nodding my head or tapping my feet to, but I'm sure they don't appeal to the spirit.

Mike

Aaron
09-22-2002, 06:09 PM
Here is a request that has to date not been answered: Originally posted by Grizzly660:
I've heard that today's current Hymns were placed to the music of tavern songs so that recent converts would be farmiliar with the music.
Makes sense to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any evidence of this. Anyone?In response to JonathanDT's assertion: ...Christ was a rebel!! The trick is who and what he rebelled against. He rebelled against the Pharisees and their legalistic laws. He rebelled against Satan's earthly "kingship," and he rebelled against sin itself. Being a rebel in and of itself isn’t wrong...Christ was not a rebel, He was a reformer, and there is a big difference. But more importantly, the distinction between "good" rebellion and evil rebellion offered here is not Biblical. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry, 1 Samuel 15:23.

Though the scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites, Christ did not oppose the authority of their office, and instructed His disciples to submit to their teaching, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do," Matthew 23:2-3.

Bro. Curtis
09-23-2002, 12:34 AM
Christ was NOT a rebel. He was not a law-breaker, but the law-giver. He wasn't somebody who bucked authority. He is someone who came to Earth and did exactly what his daddy told him to do.

A Fiery Fundamentalist
09-24-2002, 08:01 AM
Despite being solidly Fundamentalist, I come into contact with neo-evangelicals nearly every day, and I have become sick and tired of listening to them parrot a lot of Campus Crusade trash, including the notion that Jesus Christ was a rebel. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was a rebel or behaved in any way indicative of that? Whoever came up with that hocus-pocus idea obviously forgot or ignored the depraved sin nature of man. Mankind is, and has been, in rebellion against God since Adam first rebelled. God is the King and Sovereign Ruler of all Creation, whereas Satan, his devils, and humankind are revolutionaries who, having either blatantly or in his heart of hearts said the five "I Will's" of Isaiah 14:12-14, are bent on overthrowing God and exalting themselves above Him and His throne. As Christians, we are not rebels but loyal subjects of our omnipotent and merciful King.
As loyal subjects, we are not to follow the revolutionary ways of the rebellious world. God created many beautiful things which Satan has twisted and perverted. That includes music. However, comtemporary music os by no means the first example of such perversion of music. Throughout history, much of the music used for pagan rituals and observances was designed to stir up emotions, make the participants lose themselves, and often work them up into a frenzy. An example of this that survives into the present is the music of Taoism. In contrast to the traditional Chinese music, which is soft, flowing, and meditative, Taoist music is a loud, harsh cacophony designed to do much of what pagan music was designed to do.
Today, we Christians are facing a similar intrusion into our sacred music. Traditionally, at least since the Reformation, the music has always pointed to the lyrics, which teach one or more sound Biblical doctrines. The hymns were the music of the Reformation, the Wesleyan Revival, the Great Awakenings, and the rest of the great era of revivals that ended after World War II. In contrast, the music of CCM is designed to stir the emotions of the participants, to make them "lose themselves" supposedly in God's presence (how ironic it is that Christians, after having found God and salvation, would want to be lost!), and, in the case of the Pentecostal/Charismatics who originated and dominate CCM, whip them up into a frenzy. When the Bible commands us to be "in the world and not of the world" and "wherefore be ye separate, saith the Lord," it is apalling and tragic that we as Christians should use pagan forms of worship. "But the lyrics are good and justify the music," I am often told. For one thing, trying to justify that music by the lyrics would be, as I heard one preacher say, like sending the love of your life a Gothic Dracula card saying, "I love you." And for another thing, to compare the lyrics of CCM to those of the hymns is like comparing a spoonful of cotton candy to a 48 oz. porterhouse steak. With CCM, you lose the sound Biblical doctrine; that often includes salvation. Instead, you get these repetitive lyrics that often promote a palatable but false doctrine. Those who say, "but CCM is the only way to reach people these days" are stuffing God inside an electric guitar.
Believe me, I know what I am talking about; I spent most of my life in CCM, and I thank God profusely unto all eternity that he saved me from CCM after he saved my soul. God's blessing upon you all, and I pray that this post will be of benefit to someone.

Mike McK
09-24-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:And for another thing, to compare the lyrics of CCM to those of the hymns is like comparing a spoonful of cotton candy to a 48 oz. porterhouse steak.I couldn't disagree more.

While there is some CCM that is sickeningly "pie-in-the-sky-when-I-die", (of course, no less so than a great deal of Southern Gospel) the music of Rich Mullins, Wes King, Randy Stonehill, Bruce Carroll, Charlie Peacock, Jimmy Abegg, Julie Miller, Margaret Becker, Mark Gershmehl & WhiteHeart ("Don't Wait For the Movie" notwithstanding), isn't shallow at all.

It's well thought out and thought provoking to the listener.

Rich Mullins and Wes King have always provided a great deal of scripture references in their liner notes and in some cases, simply comparing the scripture references to the lyrics themselves can be productive as Bible study.

with CCM, you lose the sound Biblical doctrine;Really? All CCM? The only example I'm aware of is Carman.

Could you please elaborate?

that often includes salvation.The are a good deal of CCM songs that deal with salvation and many CCM'ers give invitations or invite the pastor of the church to give invitations at their concerts.

I remember being asked to counsel people who had come forward at a Mylon and Broken Heart concert to recieve Christ and being completely overwhelmed by the huge numbers of people.

Instead, you get these repetitive lyrics that often promote a palatable but false doctrine.Again, many CCM'ers have very well thought out and beautiful lyrics.

Again, please provide an example of the false doctrine.

Those who say, "but CCM is the only way to reach people these days" are stuffing God inside an electric guitar.I agree, but then, I've never heard a CCM proponent say that.

Believe me, I know what I am talking about; I spent most of my life in CCM, and I thank God profusely unto all eternity that he saved me from CCM after he saved my soul.While I, personally, don't listen to CCM, other than a few of the afformentioned artists, I'm glad He gave Christians an alternative and that He gave the artists themselves an arena in which to serve Him.

Mike

[ April 14, 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

Aaron
09-24-2002, 02:20 PM
It looks like we dogpiled poor JonathanDT, about the "Christ was a rebel" statement. Let's back off just a little and consider that he made the statement in good faith. ;)

JonathanDT
09-24-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Christ was NOT a rebel. He was not a law-breaker, but the law-giver. He wasn't somebody who bucked authority. He is someone who came to Earth and did exactly what his daddy told him to do.I wasn't sure if I should respond to the rebel thing, I don't want to go OT, but since three posts have mentioned it, I'll try to make a short reply.
First, I'll have to research this some more. However, without any in depth research, here's why I think what I think.

1. Aaron, I have a hard time believing that the verse you mentioned is condemning ALL rebellion, I think it's specifically talking about rebellion against God. I say this because of the many times that God raised up leaders in the Judges to rebel against the governing nation of the time and to free Israel.

2. re·bel Pronunciation Key (r-bl)
intr.v. re·belled, re·bel·ling, re·bels
To refuse allegiance to and oppose by force an established government or ruling authority.
To resist or defy an authority or a generally accepted convention.
I think that the second definition fits Jesus, as he defied the generally accepted convention of the Pharisees legalistic rule. The Pharisees themselves obviously saw him as a rebel, they tried stoning him at one point, and as you well know eventually had him hung on a tree. While Jesus told his followers to submit to their rule, he himself overthrew them by dying on the cross.

Those are my initial impressions, however I said this merits more study on my part. Thanks!

God Bless,

~JD

A Fiery Fundamentalist
09-25-2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:And for another thing, to compare the lyrics of CCM to those of the hymns is like comparing a spoonful of cotton candy to a 48 oz. porterhouse steak.[qb]

I couldn't disagree more.

While there is some CCM that is sickeningly "pie-in-the-sky-when-I-die", (of course, no less so than a great deal of Southern Gospel) the music of Rich Mullins, Wes King, Randy Stonehill, Bruce Carroll, Charlie Peacock, Jimmy Abegg, Julie Miller, Margaret Becker, Mark Gershmehl & WhiteHeart ("Don't Wait For the Movie" notwithstanding), isn't shallow at all.

It's well thought out and thought provoking to the listener.

Rich Mullins and Wes King have always provided a great deal of scripture references in their liner notes and in some cases, simply comparing the scripture references to the lyrics themselves can be productive as Bible study.

[qb][quote]with CCM, you lose the sound Biblical doctrine;Really? All CCM? The only example I'm aware of is Carman.

Could you please elaborate?

that often includes salvation.The are a good deal of CCM songs that deal with salvation and many CCM'ers give invitations or invite the pastor of the church to give invitations at their concerts.

I remember being asked to counsel people who had come forward at a Mylon and Broken Heart concert to recieve Christ and being completely overwhelmed by the huge numbers of people.

Instead, you get these repetitive lyrics that often promote a palatable but false doctrine.Again, many CCM'ers have very well thought out and beautiful lyrics.

Again, please provide an example of the false doctrine.

Those who say, "but CCM is the only way to reach people these days" are stuffing God inside an electric guitar.I agree, but then, I've never heard a CCM proponent say that.

Believe me, I know what I am talking about; I spent most of my life in CCM, and I thank God profusely unto all eternity that he saved me from CCM after he saved my soul.While I, personally, don't listen to CCM, other than a few of the afformentioned artists, I'm glad He gave Christians an alternative and that He gave the artists themselves an arena in which to serve Him.

Mike</font>I am glad that, for once, I am debating this with someone who partially agrees with me at all. I do not recall saying that I support Southern Gospel, especially since I do not.
Rich Mullins: Many churches still sing his "Awesome God," and many of them also sing also sing the accompanying verses. I thought that the first verse especially was highly disrespectful talking about God ("When he rolls up his sleeves, He ain't just puttin' on the ritz").
Wes King: Many of his songs that I have heard have fit into the Gothic card illustration.
Can you name me any CCM songs that would be considered unacceptable to liberals, Pentecostal/Charismatics, etc. At least you are the CCM-supporter I have ever debated who did not like Carman's music.
Here is a prime example of false doctrine in CCM using one of CCM's best loved choruses: "Majesty" by Jack Hayford. Here is the particular line I have in mind: "Majesty, kingdom authority flow from his throne unto his own, His anthem raise." Note: KINGDOM AUTHORITY. That is the summation of much of Charismatic falsehood. All authority belongs to God. I am sure that there is no need for me elaborate on the false doctrine of kingdom authority. Especially remember that Jack Hayford is Charismatic and did intend it that way.
As far as your response to my thoughts on "CCM is the only way to reach people these days," 1) were you saying that you agree with me, or were you saying that you agree with them? 2) I am very surprised that you never came across that kind of statement. Surely you must have heard someone say, "Hymns are well and good for old people (some do not even give hymns that "complement"), but the only way to reach the present generation is with their kind of music," *snip*.
As I am sure you have gathered, I believe that this "alternative" is definitely not from God *snip*. Thank you for being the least naive person that I have ever debated the CCM issue with. Here is a parting question: what do you think of POD? (I am sure you gather that I do not like them :( )

[ September 26, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Mike McK
09-26-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:
I am glad that, for once, I am debating this with someone who partially agrees with me at all. I do not recall saying that I support Southern Gospel, especially since I do not.I didn't mdean you, specifically.

By and large, people who knock rock and CCM are into Southern gospel.

Take the folks on i-love-jesus.com.

They come out and say that they will not allow any disussion of rock or CCM (except to bash it, of course) and one of their moderators, bennieboy (who I think has changed his name to brother ben), follows southern gospel groups with almost cult-like fascination.

In fact, I was banned from the board for daring to demonstrate that his favorite SG groups used the very same studio musicians as Hank Williams, Jr, Jimmy Buffett, Shania Twain, Garth Brooks and a variety of rock and pop/country artists.

Rich Mullins: Many churches still sing his "Awesome God," and many of them also sing also sing the accompanying verses. I thought that the first verse especially was highly disrespectful talking about God ("When he rolls up his sleeves, He ain't just puttin' on the ritz").As much as I love his music, I don't like "Awsome God" (but for different reasons than you don't like it).

Why do you think it was disrespectful?

Wes King: Many of his songs that I have heard have fit into the Gothic card illustration.I don't know what you mean by that.

I've always found his music to be pleasant acoustic pop and his lyrical content to be scripturally based and well thought out.

Can you name me any CCM songs that would be considered unacceptable to liberals, Pentecostal/Charismatics, etc.I don't know if I can for a couple of reasons.

One is that, with only a few exceptions, CCM is entertainment, not ministry, and, as such, is sort of "Christianity-lite".

They subjects they sing about are very tame and not anything controversial that we would disagree with.

I know that, in both my time as a charismatic and working in the production end of Christian music, I've found that it appeals to people fo a wide variety of non-essential ideologies.

If, by "liberal", you and I are thinking of the same people, they tend not to listen to CCM, anyway. However, in very extreme cases, they have changed the words to some of the great hymns of the faith to suit their political ideology.

At least you are the CCM-supporter I have ever debated who did not like Carman's music.I'm not the only one. If you go to crosswalk.com, you'll see that, while he does have his supporters there, he takes quite a bit of heat for his faulty doctrine, his admiration of false teachers such as William Branham and other things.

Personally, I believe Carman is what would hapen if Wayne Newtion and Benny Hinn had a baby.

Here is a prime example of false doctrine in CCM using one of CCM's best loved choruses: "Majesty" by Jack Hayford. Here is the particular line I have in mind: "Majesty, kingdom authority flow from his throne unto his own, His anthem raise." Note: KINGDOM AUTHORITY. That is the summation of much of Charismatic falsehood. All authority belongs to God. I am sure that there is no need for me elaborate on the false doctrine of kingdom authority. Especially remember that Jack Hayford is Charismatic and did intend it that way.FF, that's not CCM. This is what is commonly called "worship choruses", which I don't like for a variety of reasons (none of them doctrine, I think).

Jack Hayford is a biblically orthodox teacher but is heading out of bounds rather quickly.

In the case of "Majesty", though, I think you're reading something in to it that's not there.

As far as your response to my thoughts on "CCM is the only way to reach people these days," were you saying that you agree with me, or were you saying that you agree with them?I was saying that I've never heard anyone say that CCM is the only way to reach people, only a valid way.

I am very surprised that you never came across that kind of statement. Surely you must have heard someone say, "Hymns are well and good for old people (some do not even give hymns that "complement"), but the only way to reach the present generation is with their kind of music," *snip* Nope, never have.

The artists I've worked with have, to the best of my knowledge, been very respectful of the old hymns.

One of Starsongs top selling albums was a various artists compilation of the top CCM artists of the late eighties and early ninties singing hymns.

Julie Miller (when she was doing Christian music), Bruce Carrol, Wayne Watson, Jerome Olds, Jacob's Trouble and many other artists have included hymns on their albums.

Thank you for being the least naive person that I have ever debated the CCM issue with.Thank you. I hope I'm not cynical about it by now.

Believe me, I've been on every concievable side of this issue and have had nearly fourteen years as a Christian to sort this out.

When I was a young Christian, I was one of those people the Bible talks about being "blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine".

When I first became a Christian, I had this crazy notion that I had to get rid of all of my albums.

Fortunately, I was in a place where I didn't have room for my albums and my sister was holding on to them for me.

Having been through the same thing in the mid-late seventies, she refused to let me throw them out.

Looking back, I glad.

I bought all the books, Jim and Steve Peters, Fletcher A. Brothers, Bob Larson, David Wilkerson, etc.

I was caught up in such a fervor that I didn't even bother to see if they had their facts straight and, sure enough, they didn't.

I finally noticed that they would say things about artists I listened to that I knew weren't true and I always thought it was funny that their books were aimed at kids but talked about artists that no kid in my school would be caught dead listening to and artists that no one who was a teenager in the mid-late eighties would have heard of.

There was a lot of CCM in those days that I listened to and that God used greatly to minister to me and to help me grow.

Then, I backslid for a while and it was the Christian music that God used to convict me.

Today, with the exception of just a few artists, I don't listen to Christian music at all, just mainstream.

I find that there's a lot of mainstream music that God also uses. All mainstream music isn't good and some of it is downright awful and not conducive to growing in Christ, but there is plenty of good music out there, if you're willing to use discernmment.

There's actually a lot more to that story, but I haven't had my coffee yet. :cool:

Here is a parting question: what do you think of POD?Honestly, I don't know enough about them to comment. Even though I can't stand that kind of music, the very few things I've heard about them seem to be good.

Mike

[Just cleaned up edited portions of Fiery's Post that survived in your quotes. Aaron smile.gif ]

[ September 26, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Mike McK
10-28-2002, 04:07 PM
Fiery,

Are you there? Hello?

wwjd
10-31-2002, 02:39 AM
CCM is not a new thing. Think of it this way. Now a days kids and people out there listen to music that is satanic. If people find CCM enjoyable then that's something that takes them away from the examples of "poP music". I know, myself, I had one friend become a Christian because she was introduced into my church through a song taht she really liked. I couldn't get her to come to church, or anything, and one day when I was listening to "Avalon", the song "Adonai" she really liked it. The next Sunday she was at my church without me even knowing she was coming. Three and half months later she asked Christ into her heart. CCM is a different beat of music and frankly, I belive everything and anything has a purpose that God has planned for it. It's not for one to judge...God created CCM on this earth for some reason. Some people believe it is the demon coming out in a different way, but then why would so many people look at it as a positive and Christian look? It's not like AC/DC. I think we all need to look at what Christ-like means, and not judge.

tiggertoddy
11-02-2002, 10:07 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:
By and large, people who knock rock and CCM are into Southern gospel.

*snip* I speak only for myself when I say the following: I knock rock AND CCM, and, GUESS WHAT? I despise Southern Gospel! I worked for quite some time for a Southern Gospel radio station here in Minnesota. I left because I got sick of the *snip* music I was unfortunately playing, as part of my job. I also quit because of the lackadaisical attitude of the hyper-charismatic influence that permeated the radio station/chapel. I can attest, by experience,t hat the radio station I worked at was EXACTLY like secular radio stations, the only difference, was that they spake Jesus' name. they had a prayer request time, and they prioritized the requests. Some requests were for the 'healing' of "beloved" pets, hangnails, the right grocery store to redeems coupons, et al.

I couldn't take it anymore. I was disciplined for reading a section of the Bible on air. And, what do you know, the section i was reading on the air was about redemption. Some listeners called up and complained about me reading the bible during thier precious "feel good, glory-train" music time, and I was told NEVER to read the bible on the air again; that I had to leave that to the programs and the pastor. I was just to announce music, time, weather, Public Service Announcements, etc. this station was a christian music station? PUH-LEEASE. When you can't even read God's Word on the air, IN A "CHRISTIAN" RADIO STATION, it is pretty sad.

Southern Gospel really loves to focus on the "blood", camp meetings, the Glory Train, Beulah Land, and a "Holy Ghost" Party. I didn't hear any songs that stated that we are sinners, that we are not righteous ("no, not ONE".), that we NEED Jesus, that we are inconceivably smaller than God, and so forth. Nope, I heard alot of "pity me for guzzling booze", or " I can't wait to party with Jesus.". Sick, all of it SICK.

Where in the Bible does it EVER tell us to be looking forward to a PARTY? Is heaven just a party place? I have a RIGHT to say what I have said, because I was A PART OF IT! I was "rescued" from it by Jesus Christ. THAT is MY AUTHORITY. I accept no other authority but Jesus.

[Please make your arguments without provocative language. ;)

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]

[ November 03, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Mike McK
11-02-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by tiggertoddy:
I speak only for myself when I say the following: I knock rock AND CCM, and, GUESS WHAT?Yeah...and?

I was disciplined for reading a section of the Bible on air.If your attitude there was anything like your attitude here, I'd bet that you were being disciplined for more than just reading the Bible.

Some listeners called up and complained about me reading the bible during thier precious "feel good, glory-train" music time, and I was told NEVER to read the bible on the air again; that I had to leave that to the programs and the pastor.Perfectly within a PD's right to do.

I was just to announce music, time, weather, Public Service Announcements, etc. this station was a christian music station?Sounds like that was your job. What's the problem?

When you can't even read God's Word on the air, IN A "CHRISTIAN" RADIO STATION, it is pretty sad.From the way you described your run in with the management, it sounds as though the Bible was being read.

I didn't hear any songs that stated that we are sinners, that we are not righteous ("no, not ONE".), that we NEED Jesus, that we are inconceivably smaller than God, and so forth.I take it you don't listen to much Southern Gospel music.

I can't wait to party with Jesus.". Sick, all of it SICK.So, when David and the Apostle Paul spoke of how much they looked forward to Heaven, were they equally as sick?

Where in the Bible does it EVER tell us to be looking forward to a PARTY?Luke 6:23 tells us to "rejoice in that day and leap for joy".

Luke 15:7 tells us that "great joy shall be in Heaven"

There are several OT passages that tell us that the Lord rejoices and "rejoice" carries with it the idea of celebration.

Is heaven just a party place?Not by Earthly standards, but the Bible does tell us that there is a celebratory atmosphere there.

Just visiting to clean up an edited portion of the previous post that survived in a quote here.

[ April 14, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

Dina
11-04-2002, 04:22 PM
Just wondering what the thoughts are about CREED?

neal4christ
11-04-2002, 05:17 PM
Just wondering what the thoughts are about CREED? They are not a Christian group, but a secular band. From what I know (I used to listen to them) the lead singer is "searching" when it comes to God. I would not promote them or recommend them to anyone.

Baptist Believer
11-04-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Dina:
Just wondering what the thoughts are about CREED?I'm far from an expert on Creed, but they don't fly under the banner of CCM. The subject of Creed, IMO, should be discussed in a seperate thread.

try hard
11-09-2002, 12:45 AM
I like Lifehouse smile.gif

Christian A. Lindsey
11-14-2002, 09:13 PM
What is the purpose of music for the Christian? Music, as is anything given to man by God, is to glorify and honor God above all else. Means by which this is accomplished are many: evangelization, edification, exhortation, etc.

This many times creates in us a feeling of accomlishment, satisfaction, happiness, joy. But our feelings are not what qualifies or disqualifies good Christian music. It's what that music in and of itself does. Does it glorify God? Does the message AND the music mirror the Word of God?

I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist. One song doesn't make him good or bad. Judge each song for what it is from a BIBLICAL standpoint. Don't call it a bad song because this guy sings it, and this song good because this lady sings it. If we were to judge Mozart's or Beethoven's music for the composer, we'd throw it all out the window.

One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing! Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics. Interestingly enough, the only persons who claim that music, without the lyrics, is amoral (neither good nor bad), are
Christians who want to justify their listening to "Christian Rock."

Rock artists, producers, and even satanists will admit that it is the music apart from the words that most effectively teaches their philosophy. Here is a URL address for you to take a look at. It is a satanist's view of "Christian Rock."

http://www.geocities.com/athens/9708/CROCK.TXT

Always, as with every aspect of the Christian life, base your decisions, preferences, standards, convictions, and life patterns on the Word of God, and you won't have difficulty "choosing" the right kind of music.

Sincerely,

Christian Lindsey

Mike McK
11-14-2002, 09:55 PM
CHRISTIAN METAL: A SATANIST'S POINT OF VIEW
BY DANIEL JOHNSON

Lyrically, you must admit that christian rock and metal are ridiculous and hae little merit.Why? I find the music of Randy Stonehill, bruce Carroll, Steve Camp, Buddy and Julie Miller, Margaret Becker, Ashley Cleveland, Mark Heard, Charlie Peacock, Wes King, Michael Card and many others to be very well thought out and Biblicallu sound.

Why must we "admit that Christian rock and metal are ridiculous and have little merit"?

But, ignoring the senseless word, there is a definite musical wonder found in all metal.By whom? Wouldn't this depend on individual tastes? Who has examined "all metal"?

The rythm which makes your heart speed up, the emotional solos which send a shiver down your spine, the
chanting, marching pace which makes your adreniline flow.
It's all there in Chirstian metal, same as any other.So?

When I rock my infant daughter to sleep, I play Type O Negative's album "October
Rust". Is there a christian alternative? Probably, but as young minds at the border between being awake and asleep are most vulnerable to messages in the subconscious, I don't want to risk the subliminal indoctrination which may occur from playing Christian gothic.If the music is "ridiculous and of little merit" then why would you worry about it's message influencing your daughter towards Christianity?

However, with the faster, heavier music, it's different. On our way to political rallies, my friends and I always take the long way around, cruising the streets with Rage Against The Machine, White Zombie, Deicide or Bad Religion blasting over the car stereo, to get our nerves ready for the chaos of a near riot.I listen to hard rock bands before I skate onto the ice. So what?

Rock and Roll, which got it's name from a black slang term for sex in the back of a car, is derived from a combination of blues and voodoo ceremonial rythms.Actually, it's not. It's derived from a combination of jump blues, hillbilly, and gospel, but don't let me stop you.

Christian music has always historically lacked rythmI take it you don't listen to much Christian music.

If it lacks "rythm" then why is it sinful, as it's supposed to be the "rthym" that stirs up the flesh?

anything that stirs up emotion of
any kind is considered sinful.By whom? By that logic, most of the great hymns of Christendom are sinful.

Jazz, and R&B, the earlier bases of rock, metal, gothic, punk, death metal, industrial, country rock and rock itself have always been synonymous with decadence, atheism, Satanism and social protest.Not in and of themselves, but only by those who choose to place those meanings on them.

This is because of it's voodoo roots.What voodoo roots?

Some say that voodoo is a christian
denomination,Who?

If the lyrics are ignored, christian rock fills this purpose of voodoo spiritual posession just as easily.What do you base this on? What do you base any contemporary music being used to summon evil spirits with?

Take Black Sabbath for example. Long considered the epitome of Satanic rock. If you
read the lyrics to "Lord Of This World", "War Pigs", and "After Forever" you see that the
message is obviously christian.I'm not sure I understand how these are "Christian messages". Please explain.

*snip*

Take any Christian metal band of today and put them in the same time and place, and
they would be in the exact same position Black Sabbath is in now.What do you base this on?

I could sing a song about loving Jesus, and still there would be many people in the
audience with their hands thrust up in the air to show the sign of the horns.How do you know that the sign their showing isn't the ASL sign for love? How do you know that they're not Texas football fans? How do you know they're not signaling "Two outs" to the outfield?

You see this sign a lot but your average concert goer has no more clue what it means than can make sense out of this guy's rambling essay.

This sign is no more indicative of Satanism than somebody wearing a cross around their neck is a Christian.

The rythm of christian rock will summon Baron Samedi all the same, as the death god
awaits his spiced rum sacrifice from those of us who conjure him.Really? Which song?

So, pick up a copy of the christian metal magazine "Heaven's Metal" and look up the
newest of the Satanic rock bands!
HAIL CHRISTIAN ROCK! A TRUE WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING!
HAIL SATANOK, Mr Johnson, it's time for your medication.

[ November 16, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

Mike McK
11-14-2002, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Christian A. Lindsey:
Rock artists, producers, and even satanists will admit that it is the music apart from the words that most effectively teaches their philosophy. Here is a URL address for you to take a look at. It is a satanist's view of "Christian Rock."Why is it that we're not supposed to listen to "the Devil's music", but it's OK to accept "Satanist's", which I really don't believe this guy is, advice on the music we should listen to?

Mike

[ April 09, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

Baptist Believer
11-14-2002, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Christian A. Lindsey:
What is the purpose of music for the Christian? Music, as is anything given to man by God, is to glorify and honor God above all else. Means by which this is accomplished are many: evangelization, edification, exhortation, etc.

This many times creates in us a feeling of accomlishment, satisfaction, happiness, joy. But our feelings are not what qualifies or disqualifies good Christian music. It's what that music in and of itself does. Does it glorify God?Excellence in music glorifies God, whatever the style.

Does the message AND the music mirror the Word of God?The message should mirror a Christian world view. The music itself should strive for excellence.

I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist. One song doesn't make him good or bad. Judge each song for what it is from a BIBLICAL standpoint. Don't call it a bad song because this guy sings it, and this song good because this lady sings it. If we were to judge Mozart's or Beethoven's music for the composer, we'd throw it all out the window.Um, what's wrong with Beethoven?

One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing!Oh...

Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics.If the devil owned music, that would be true....

Interestingly enough, the only persons who claim that music, without the lyrics, is amoral (neither good nor bad), are Christians who want to justify their listening to "Christian Rock."Not really... I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't really care for most Christian rock and don't listen to it very often.

Rock artists, producers, and even satanists will admit that it is the music apart from the words that most effectively teaches their philosophy.Really??? Music can certainly stir the soul, but the response to the music is from within. If you sin while listening to music, it is because *you* wanted to do it. The music did not make you or motive you.

Here is a URL address for you to take a look at. It is a satanist's view of "Christian Rock."

http://www.geocities.com/athens/9708/CROCK.TXTThree thoughts:

1.) The "satanist" needs to learn to spell and type.
2.) I really doubt that this person is a "satanist"
3.) If he truly is a satanist, why should I believe a word he says? If he is the enemy of God, why would I believe that he would tell the truth about something in the Christian community? If anything, the fact that he speaks against Christian rock is probably the best endorsement of Christian rock that you could get.

Always, as with every aspect of the Christian life, base your decisions, preferences, standards, convictions, and life patterns on the Word of God, and you won't have difficulty "choosing" the right kind of music.True. I'll listen to Christian rock, "secular" rock, bluegrass, folk, classical, blues, country, rhythm and blues, hip hop, praise and worship, Contemporary Christian, alternative rock, standards, and pop music.

I will not sin if I choose my music carefully.

Ransom
11-15-2002, 10:33 AM
Christian A. Lindsey said:

I'm not going to attack or support any particular artist.

No, you're just going to lob a cluster bomb and get them all with one shot.

One thing I will warn you about...stay away from what is classified as "Christian Rock!" There really is no such thing! Music of the Devil cannot go hand-in-hand with Godly lyrics.

That rock music, per se, is "Music of the Devil" is your unsupported assumption, nothing more.

Your link brought me to: "CHRISTIAN METAL: A SATANIST'S POINT OF VIEW." So it's come to this: going to Satanists to tell us what Christians ought to do. In straining out the gnat of "worldly" music, its critics have swallowed the camel of worldly thought. Rom. 12:1-2 would seem to apply.

[ November 15, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

Aaron
11-16-2002, 08:36 AM
Clarification,

Any encyclopedia article on rock music will say that rock music has its roots in African music. Dig a little deeper and you will find that African rhythms are all about Voodoo.

There is no dispute on that fact all. The dispute is whether those rhythms can transfer to Christian music. Until recently, the resounding answer of the church was no.

Baptist Believer
11-16-2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Aaron:
Clarification,

Any encyclopedia article on rock music will say that rock music has its roots in African music. Dig a little deeper and you will find that African rhythms are all about Voodoo.

There is no dispute on that fact all. The dispute is whether those rhythms can transfer to Christian music. Until recently, the resounding answer of the church was no.I maintain that this belief had more to do with racial bigotry than with any sort of spiritual insight. Until recently, the resounding answer of the church was to keep people of African descent out of "white" churches. I did a little reading on the subject a number of years ago, and one memorable opinion was that it was okay for black people to enjoy music with strong percussion in worship because they need to "work out their pent-up emotions." :rolleyes: For lots of white people "reverence" involves becoming as unemotional as possible, instead of submitting everything (mind, emotions, the will) to God.

Kiffin
11-16-2002, 11:16 AM
Any encyclopedia article on rock music will say that rock music has its roots in African music. Dig a little deeper and you will find that African rhythms are all about Voodoo.
I don't think most will deny that, though I believe Jack Chick once wrote that Heavy Metal music had it's origins with the Druids :confused: (That would mean that Ozzfest is a Celtic music festival graemlins/laugh.gif Let's bring our tartans and kilts :D ). Seriously though, African rhythms are part of African culture but that does not make it evil. African rhythms are also about great black Gospel music.

As for the Satanist link, it seems to be stuck in the 1980's Hell's Bells syndrome that believes the whole Rock music industry in run by a secret society of Satanists. I mean the guy mentions, " Stryper or Petra". O please Stryper hasn't existed for over a decade and Petra's glory days in CCM faded about 7 years ago. "Heaven's Metal" magazine had it's name changed years ago to Hard Music magazine when Metal declined in popularity and Christian metal barely exists today.

I suspect there is something dishonest about the article in that I suspect the writer is probably a Fundy Baptist pretending to be a Satanists in that his knowledge of contemporay music seems to be stuck back in the late 80's and early 90's. :rolleyes: Many anti CCM bashers such as Jack Chick, Bill Gothard and the ridiculous Jeff Godwin often lie, twist and distort the truth. Many of us who are CCM supporters have serious problems with the current state of CCM but embracing slander is not the Christian way.

Mike McK
11-16-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Aaron:
Clarification,

Any encyclopedia article on rock music will say that rock music has its roots in African music. Dig a little deeper and you will find that African rhythms are all about Voodoo.Then they would be denying that Rock and roll is drawn from a wide variety of sources.

Mike McK
11-16-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Kiffin:
[QUOTE]I don't think most will deny that, though I believe Jack Chick once wrote that Heavy Metal music had it's origins with the DruidsIt's true. Remember the dwarf dancing around the little Stonehenge in "This is Spinal Tap"? :D

If you were going to follow that logic, then it would be much more logical to say that bluegrass has roots in the Celtic music used in Druidic worship, yet bluegrass gospel is widely accepted in many fundy circles.

Hmm...

I mean the guy mentions, " Stryper or Petra". O please Stryper hasn't existed for over a decade and Petra's glory days in CCM faded about 7 years ago.I agree.

It all starts with Stryper and Petra and then, before you know it, the kids are listening to Honeytree and Sweet Comfort Band. :eek:

I suspect there is something dishonest about the article in that I suspect the writer is probably a Fundy Baptist pretending to be a Satanists in that his knowledge of contemporay music seems to be stuck back in the late 80's and early 90's.Funny, that's exactly what I thought.

:rolleyes: Many anti CCM bashers such as Jack Chick, Bill Gothard and the ridiculous Jeff Godwin often lie, twist and distort the truth.No doubt. Just check out av1611.com some time.

Many of us who are CCM supporters have serious problems with the current state of CCM but embracing slander is not the Christian way.I agree. Either judge it on it's own merits or don't. Why do they have to resort to lies and urban legends?

Christian A. Lindsey
11-17-2002, 08:10 PM
I am glad I received so many responses to what I wrote. It seems that there are plenty out there who are, in one form or another, in favor of this type of music. Please do not misunderstand me. I do not consider this conversation a measuring-stick of your (or my) spirituality. That is not the issue. The issue is that music and our discernment of what is good and bad music has definite affects on our spiritual lives, and I believe that it is important that each believer establishes his basis for judgment on the Word of God. The URL article was simply a "bibliographic note" to what I was saying that even those not in Christian circles say that music is not amoral--meaning it is, in and of itself, neither good nor bad.

First of all, it seems that most did not really grasped the application of the article to what I was saying. This satanist is not writing to Christians. He has written this article as part of his satanist webpage. He is applauding Christian Rock and endorsing it to his followers as something great and wonderful.

The author of this article is saying that no matter what the words say, the music considered "Rock" or "Metal" has innate evil influences and affects. He LIKES this music for what it stands for, and for what it does to a person's emotions.

His reference to Christian music that historically lacks rhythm is obviously speaking of the conservative Christian music of past centuries, not what is called contemporary Christian music. The rhythm that is lacking is the dominant syncopation that has been added in much of the relatively new Christian music.

The fact that he misunderstands the Christian's view of emotions and their appropriateness is understandable, and at this point, I would have to agree with Smoke Eater concerning his logic, though I dare say the author is not only speaking of "healthy" emotions, but emotions and passions unbecoming to a Christian.

The purpose of mentioning this article was to show how this satanist belittles and despises Christianity and its faith, yet enjoys and actually promotes "Christian Rock". This is pretty heavy evidence--apart from the Word of God--against this type of music.


Secondly, "style" is to music what modesty is to dress. There are some styles that are not appropiate for the Christian, just as some clothing would not be considered approriate. The difficulty comes when judging what is and is not appropriate.

Baptist Believer, you mentioned that music should mirror a Christian world view. I do not agree. Basically, what I am dealing with at this point (I did not clarify myself here) is music in the church. Music in the Bible is always described as a form of worship of God and as a means of glorifying Him, as well as "speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts...UNTO THE LORD." The music in the church is for "interelationship" between believers, and between them and God. Keep the world out of it.

The comment on Mozart and Beethoven was to show the difference between their music and their lives. I was saying that one should be careful NOT to judge the song because a particular person composed it or sings it, one way or another. If we were to do that, we would have to throw the music of these two wonderful composers out the window. I am a well-trained musician with years of studies...trust me, they were not nice men.

The term Rock and Roll by the way DOES come from the activities the author of this article describes. The roots of the that music come from African rituals and voodoo among other things, but the TERM comes from that idea. If it represents these ideals, then this type of music--its very philosophy and application--has no place in the Christian's life. This is what was meant by saying the Devil's music (I think people have misinterpreted the meaning of that phrase--it does not mean he OWNS it, it means he manipulates it to his purposes) cannot be linked with "Christian" words and be considered good. (II Cor. 6:14-17) The two are in direct contrast of each other.

Sure you sin because YOU want to, but if you are allowing something in your life that tempts you to sin, what should you do with that "something"?

I am not condemning all secular music, nor am I condemning contemporary Christian music or its artists in general. Besides, that's not for me to decide. I am not judging anyone. I am simply saying that there are certain types of music, based on their philosophy, affects and associations, that are not healthy for the Christian.

I do not doubt your sincerity in your responses, but I do not make any apologies for what I said either. I will make this last statement and not bore some of you to tears any longer. Music does not "make or break" a Christian, but the music we listen to does have a tremendous affect on our spiritual responsiveness and resulting relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

Christian A. Lindsey

Mike McK
11-18-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Christian A. Lindsey:
The author of this article is saying that no matter what the words say, the music considered "Rock" or "Metal" has innate evil influences and affects.Be he doesn't show that it does. I'm happy taht he has a chance to express an opinion, but so what?

Unless he can show a reason, it's just his opinion and I, for one, would disagree.

This is pretty heavy evidence--apart from the Word of God--against this type of music.How does this demonstrate anything?

My sister's not a Christian, but she has every 2nd Chapter of Acts record ever made (it's a long story). By the same standard, does this make soft, mellow, middle of the road folk that doesn't lend itself to heavy emotionalism evil?

In my time in Christian music, I met a lot of people who weren't Christians, but enjoyed Christian music.

Mark Heard, Bruce Cockburn, Buddy and Julie Miller, Leslie Phillips, Kerry Livgren, among others, are all Christians who do or have done Christian music that appeals to a wide cross section of people. So what?

There are some styles that are not appropiate for the Christian, just as some clothing would not be considered approriate.Why?

The term Rock and Roll by the way DOES come from the activities the author of this article describes.I thought that was established and agreed upon. What does what someone chose to call it sixty years ago have with what someone chooses to do with it today?

The roots of the that music come from African rituals and voodoo among other thingsThat hasn't been established yet.

If it represents these ideals, then this type of music--its very philosophy and application--has no place in the Christian's life.I agree. If music represents illicit sex and voodoo, then it has no place in a CHristian's life.

But, since we're talking about Christian music, which doesn't represent these things, so what?

This is what was meant by saying the Devil's music cannot be linked with "Christian" words and be considered good.You're talking in circles.

You still haven't established that all music of any one particular style represents any one thing.

(II Cor. 6:14-17) The two are in direct contrast of each other.Why?

Sure you sin because YOU want to, but if you are allowing something in your life that tempts you to sin, what should you do with that "something"?Obviously, you should avoid those things that tempt you but in Matthew 5:27-30, we learn that we're still going to have to look within ourselves to find the root of the problem.

I am simply saying that there are certain types of music, based on their philosophy, affects and associations, that are not healthy for the Christian.But you still haven't demonstrated that any one type of music shares the same "philosophy, 'affects' and associations" across the board.

For example, Aerosmith, Doug Sahm and Jimmy Buffett are all rock artists, but their music is all as different from one another as it can be.

"Walk This Way" and "Little Miss Magic" are both rock songs, but are as different in both style and content as you can imagine and the only thing they share is that the two guys who sing them live down the street from one another on Long Island.

Music does not "make or break" a Christian, but the music we listen to does have a tremendous affect on our spiritual responsiveness and resulting relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.I agree.

Mike

Baptist Believer
11-18-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Christian A. Lindsey:
I am glad I received so many responses to what I wrote. It seems that there are plenty out there who are, in one form or another, in favor of this type of music. Actually, the terms “contemporary Christian music” and “Christian rock music” are so incredibly broad that I would hesitate to label myself as a supporter of “this type of music” without clarifying that I believe all music can be good or bad depending upon the lyrics, the intent of the performer and the context. I believe lyrics carry the moral weight of a song while the tune is neither inherently good or evil. :D

Please do not misunderstand me. I do not consider this conversation a measuring-stick of your (or my) spirituality. That is not the issue. The issue is that music and our discernment of what is good and bad music has definite affects on our spiritual lives, and I believe that it is important that each believer establishes his basis for judgment on the Word of God. I fully agree.

The URL article was simply a "bibliographic note" to what I was saying that even those not in Christian circles say that music is not amoral--meaning it is, in and of itself, neither good nor bad. Certainly, but in my opinion, the “satanist” was not very well informed or a credible basis of authority for Christians. Certainly a person can get stimulus or “energy” from music with a fast tempo (whether classical, contemporary Christian, rock, Southern Gospel, etc.) without listening to the words and then go out and do evil, but that is a problem with the person, not the music.

First of all, it seems that most did not really grasped the application of the article to what I was saying. This satanist is not writing to Christians. He has written this article as part of his satanist webpage. He is applauding Christian Rock and endorsing it to his followers as something great and wonderful. Please send me the URL of this “Satanist” Web page where this article appears in a private message so that I can research it myself. I tried a search on the internet and I couldn’t find it – except for the link you gave.

The author of this article is saying that no matter what the words say, the music considered "Rock" or "Metal" has innate evil influences and affects. He LIKES this music for what it stands for, and for what it does to a person's emotions. “Rock” and “Metal” are type very different things… Metal is always rock, but rock is only occasionally metal music. Personally, I don’t care for metal music, but that does not mean it is inherently evil.

His reference to Christian music that historically lacks rhythm is obviously speaking of the conservative Christian music of past centuries, not what is called contemporary Christian music. The rhythm that is lacking is the dominant syncopation that has been added in much of the relatively new Christian music. The only music that doesn’t have rhythm is the music I play on piano or guitar. (I’m rhythmically challenged!) What he may be referring to is a pronounced rhythm, or danceable music… Music classical music is full of that too. So are traditional hymns.

The fact that he misunderstands the Christian's view of emotions and their appropriateness is understandable, and at this point, I would have to agree with Smoke Eater concerning his logic, though I dare say the author is not only speaking of "healthy" emotions, but emotions and passions unbecoming to a Christian. We agree here as well! :D

The purpose of mentioning this article was to show how this satanist belittles and despises Christianity and its faith, yet enjoys and actually promotes "Christian Rock". This is pretty heavy evidence--apart from the Word of God--against this type of music. Actually, it may just be an indicator that this fellow is not very bright or the music is of very high quality… You’ve already affirmed that he misunderstands the Christian perspective in this music.

Secondly, "style" is to music what modesty is to dress. There are some styles that are not appropiate for the Christian, just as some clothing would not be considered approriate. The difficulty comes when judging what is and is not appropriate. Based on what authority? Certainly if music is anti-Christian or of very low quality, it is no appropriate for Christians to enjoy for personal or corporate edification. But if you are talking about styles of music, I would have to strongly disagree unless you can give me biblical evidence to the contrary.

Baptist Believer, you mentioned that music should mirror a Christian world view. Absolutely. Christian music should at least come from a viewpoint of Christian faith – even if it is not a religiously-themed piece.

I do not agree. Basically, what I am dealing with at this point (I did not clarify myself here) is music in the church. Okay, that’s a little different. Music for worship should focus on God and songs of testimony and service.

Music in the Bible is always described as a form of worship of God and as a means of glorifying Him, as well as "speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts...UNTO THE LORD." The music in the church is for "interelationship" between believers, and between them and God. Yes. But certainly you understand that music not focused on God is acceptable outside the context of worship… If I were to write a love song to my wife, that would be an acceptable song for a Christian.

Keep the world out of it. I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood what I mean by “Christian worldview”. A worldview is a philosophical outlook on the world that colors perceptions and help create an integrated structure for human understanding. (Look it up in the dictionary if I don’t make sense here.) Essentially I’m saying that a Christian should look at the world with eyes of faith. I am not endorsing the “world system” or anything in the world except the goodness of God revealed in His creation.

The comment on Mozart and Beethoven was to show the difference between their music and their lives. I was saying that one should be careful NOT to judge the song because a particular person composed it or sings it, one way or another. If we were to do that, we would have to throw the music of these two wonderful composers out the window. I am a well-trained musician with years of studies...trust me, they were not nice men. Certainly Mozart was probably at least as bad as he was portrayed in “Amadeus”, but I understand the jury is still out on Beethoven and his faith. Certainly he was irritable and sinful, but so was Luther. Beethoven also had some severe health problems (lead-poisoning, etc.) that probably caused a lot of his moods. In any case, I agree that the source of the music is irrelevant to whether or not the music is acceptable for Christians.

The term Rock and Roll by the way DOES come from the activities the author of this article describes. The roots of the that music come from African rituals and voodoo among other things, but the TERM comes from that idea. Even if it does, I thought you just made a good case for judging the music on it’s own merits instead of the creator of the music???

If it represents these ideals, then this type of music--its very philosophy and application--has no place in the Christian's life. This is what was meant by saying the Devil's music (I think people have misinterpreted the meaning of that phrase--it does not mean he OWNS it, it means he manipulates it to his purposes) cannot be linked with "Christian" words and be considered good. Nonsense… See the point you just made about Beethoven and Mozart.

(II Cor. 6:14-17) This is referring to people, not music. Furthermore, this is about leaving paganism and paganistic religion. You still have yet to demonstrate that “rock” (whatever you mean by the term) is necessarily pagan.

The two are in direct contrast of each other. Yes. Pagan religion and Christian religion are incompatible. Tunes and styles created by non-Christians/pagans and Christian lyrics are compatible, since the meaning is found in the lyrics.

Sure you sin because YOU want to, but if you are allowing something in your life that tempts you to sin, what should you do with that "something"?You should get rid of it. My music does not tempt me. If your music tempts you, it’s time to get rid of it – but don’t assume everyone shares the same weaknesses.

Liquor has no temptation for me. I can live around it without facing any temptation. (I used to keep a bottle of Everclear in my home – I confiscated it from a student at the private high school I used to work at – and used it only for medicinal (external) purposes. I had not inclination to drink the stuff. I had a friend give me a bottle of beer four months ago. I put it in the fridge thinking I might want to try it sometime. I haven’t cared enough to even open the bottle. I tried drinking red wine for my cardiovascular health about a year ago (a doctor recommended it), but I don’t really care for it and I’ve gradually stopped drinking it – but that’s me.

Other people have real problems with alcohol and they would have consumed that Everclear, the beer and worked their way through countless bottles of wine during the last year because they have that weakness… But that does not make *me* wrong for occasionally having an alcoholic drink or having it around the house.

I am not condemning all secular music, nor am I condemning contemporary Christian music or its artists in general. Excellent.

Besides, that's not for me to decide. I am not judging anyone. I am simply saying that there are certain types of music, based on their philosophy, affects and associations, that are not healthy for the Christian. And you still have yet to demonstrate this… Maybe you should say that some forms of music, regardless of lyrics, may not be good for some Christians?

I do not doubt your sincerity in your responses, but I do not make any apologies for what I said either. Fine.

I will make this last statement and not bore some of you to tears any longer. I’m not crying. :D

Music does not "make or break" a Christian, but the music we listen to does have a tremendous affect on our spiritual responsiveness and resulting relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Yep. If we listen to music with bad theology or music that celebrates evil, it will harm us.

Thanks for your input!

Mike McK
04-09-2003, 02:42 PM

christfollower55
04-09-2003, 05:07 PM
christian music should glorify God not the man singing it. I personally don't like contermpory music, however it get's the young people in. i don't agree with that tatic but once again they are getting them in with it. i like southern gospel music there is nothing like it. it puts a feeling down in my soul like nothing else has ever done.


GOD BLESS AMERICA

Terry_Herrington
04-14-2003, 02:32 PM
christfollower55,

So, what you are saying is that using CCM works, but you still don't like it. If it works, why not use it, or as the KJVO love to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

DanielFive
04-14-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
christfollower55,

So, what you are saying is that using CCM works, but you still don't like it. If it works, why not use it, or as the KJVO love to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." This comment reminds of a story I heard about the late Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

Following a run of poor attendances at sunday evening gospel services some of the church members suggested that the service should be livened up with special singing performances etc., which would draw more people into the church.

MLJ sarcastically asked them if he should put up posters around London inviting people to come and see him preaching in the nude. He guaranteed a full church.

I hope you can see that just because something draws crowds to a church it doesn't mean that it is right.

God Bless

Enda

Terry_Herrington
04-14-2003, 06:18 PM
Edna,
You are comparing apples and oranges. To come to church nude is not the same as allowing people to enjoy music that is contemporary to their generation.

You could attract people to come to church by doing almost any absurd thing. Being able to worship God with CCM is hardly absurd.

DanielFive
04-14-2003, 07:44 PM
Terry,

If it works, why not use it You suggested that the use of CCM in church was justified because it works(ie.gets people into church)

My point was, that wheather or not CCM draws crowds to the church is absolutely irrelevant.

If you want to consider wheather something should be allowed in worship you don't start with the question of wheather people enjoy it or not. You consider wheather scripture allows it and leave it at that.

I am not addressing the rights and wrongs of CCM, I've been down that road before. Nevertheless I think that if some of the Puritans were around today they would find much of our modern worship totally absurd.

God Bless

Enda

Molly
04-14-2003, 08:36 PM
I hope you can see that just because something draws crowds to a church it doesn't mean that it is right.

God Bless

Enda [/QB][/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more! graemlins/thumbs.gif

Terry_Herrington
04-15-2003, 08:14 AM
I see things from a different perspective that you do, evidently. I think we should use every means at our disposal, if it is not evil, to attract people to our churches. Being that I do not think that CCM is evil, I think it should be used. In fact, I do not think that any particular style of music is, in and of itself, evil. Therefore, I would use any style of music at the appropriate time to attract those who are lost.

My experience is that some churches like to stay fifty or one hundred years in the past. I think that they do this because it causes them to be rejected by many today. As odd as this may seem, I think they do this so that they can feel special. I had one pastor say to me many years ago that we were the only church in our city that really taught proper doctrine. I was amazed because he was serious. I live in Houston, Texas, the forth largest city in the United States. At that time the population here, including the surrounding suburbs was around two million people.

DanielFive
04-15-2003, 09:54 AM
Terry,

Your desire to see sinners brought into the church is commendable but I don't think your methods are supported by scripture.

We don't want to see unsaved people in church so that we can have fellowship with them, we want to see them getting saved. They will be saved only through the foolishness of preaching .

I would say that if someone is finding church entertaining then they are not being challenged by the preaching and therefore not being brought under conviction of sin.

Entertaining services which draw large crowds are very dangerous in that people start to think that just because they are attending a church and enjoying the services that they are saved. This can leave them with false assurance and in many ways worse off than they were before they started attending church.

God Bless

Enda

Terry_Herrington
04-15-2003, 08:00 PM
Edna,

First, you say that we need to win the lost, but they should not be comfortable in church. Then you say don't use music that will get them in church in the first place. If you don't get them into the church who will you preach the Gospel to.

I say that CCM is not for the lost; I don't know any lost people who listen to it. It is for the saved. It is so that they can express their love for God with a musical style that they like. It just so happens that this style of music is more familiar to the un-churched, not the message, just the musical style.

BTW, what would be wrong with using a style of music that will, perhaps, cause people to come to church and then preach the Gospel to them. After all, it is the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that they need to hear in order to be saved.

What is the difference in inviting children to come and rewarding them when the do attend. This is done in almost every bus ministry.

DanielFive
04-15-2003, 10:23 PM
First, you say that we need to win the lost, but they should not be comfortable in church. Terry,

I'm beginning to wonder if you're actually reading my posts. I never said this. I said that just because something (in this case CCM) brings crowds into a church it doesn't mean that it is right to have it in church.

In your earlier post you said 'if it works, we should use it', show me where it says that in the Bible.

When you talk about the unsaved feeling comfortable in church, well thats fine, but if they are feeling comfortable they are not experiencing conviction of sin.

Should we try to make the unsaved feel comfortable in our churches?

NO, we should be hospitable of course, but we shouldn't be content just seeing them at church, if we truly want to see them saved we will want to see them being convicted by the Holy Spirit, anyone who has truly experienced this will say that they were not comfortable in this state. That is what draws them to the Lord, they need to be cleansed from their sin. This is the whole purpose of inviting them to church in the first place.

I'm not suggesting that Christians should feel uncomfortable in church, but again just because CCM makes them feel comfortable doesn't mean that it is right. The pattern for worship is clearly defined in scripture, this is how we must judge wheather something is right or not, people's feelings don't come into it at all. It is God that we are worshipping, it is Him we are trying to please, not ourselves. What we like is not always what God likes.

I am not knocking CCM here, wheather it should be used in worship is another argument, what I'm disagreeing with is your basis for using it.

If you think I'm wrong, show me exactly where I am going wrong.

God Bless

Enda (NB not Edna)

Terry_Herrington
04-16-2003, 12:51 AM
Enda (sorry about the spelling),

This has turned into a hugh misunderstanding. I do not necessarily believe that as long as something works it should always be used. On this point I agree with you. I just do not see any violation of Scripture with using CCM, whether it is in church or out of church. I just like CCM music.

Somehow this discussion has gotten out of hand. If I have been the cause I apologize.

BTW, I do not dislike hymns, southern gospel, country gospel, black gospel, or many other styles of christian music; I just like CCM better.

Molly
04-16-2003, 08:16 AM
Enda is exactly right...churches allover are accepting things based on what? It works? Works for what? The prgamtic church growth movement has woatered down God's word so that it is not confrontive but a feel good style service which the music has much to do with this...actually if I remember corretcly,Jesus said He would grow His churches...and He put much more emphasis on preaching the word than all this other. Man's ways are just that,man's. We need to be trying to be biblical in all we do.

Unfortunately,Terry,there are many churches who have bought into this....actual;ly there are probably very few churches holding to God's ways. The world's ways are much more FUN! The emphasis shifts when this becomes the focus...

Preacher Nathan Knight
04-16-2003, 09:00 AM
Molly is right. This modern Christian movement is very large in size but very small in affect. The tools of that movement are ungodly music and ungodly bibles, both of which do extreme harm. Their philosophy is "easy believism." I hate to see a preacher on TV give an invitation at the end of the service and he asks all those who want to be saved to come down front, raise their hand and repaet a little prayer. I do believe that salvation is that simple but it must come from a persons heart and they must first be convicted of the Holy Spirit. If they are not convicted it is very doubtful that they trusted the Lord. I believe some may get saved through that method, but probably only 1 out of 100. This brings up an interesting question. If all those people who raise their hand do not truly get saved, are they given a false hope of salvation and are still bound for hell? I believe so.

DanielFive
04-16-2003, 09:23 AM
Hello Molly,

I fully agree with everything you have said, nice to see another Reformed Baptist in the music forum. graemlins/thumbs.gif

God Bless

Enda

DanielFive
04-16-2003, 09:34 AM
Terry,

I also apologise if I have misunderstood you in any way.

As I said I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of CCM in the church, suffice to say I agree with the comments made by Molly and Preacher Nathan Knight above.

Anyway, I think we've cleared up the point I was trying to make, so I'll leave you to continue the discussion with Molly and PNK.

God Bless

Enda
PS It wasn't the spelling mistake that bothered me, it was the fact that you had me down as a woman graemlins/laugh.gif

Su Wei
04-17-2003, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by enda:
PS It wasn't the spelling mistake that bothered me, it was the fact that you had me down as a woman graemlins/laugh.gif :eek: lets be clear on this!!!
are you saying you're not a woman? redface.gif

tongue.gif

PS I am a woman....a mom of two. :D

graemlins/laugh.gif

DanielFive
04-17-2003, 08:32 AM
Su Wei,

I hope you're not too shocked but yes, the last time I checked I was a man. ;)

Enda is actually a gaelic name, I am called after the Irish Saint Enda of the Arran Isles.

Its not a very common name even here in Ireland so I have gotten used to people thinking it is Edna redface.gif

God Bless

Enda not Edna (Maybe I need to sign all my posts like this graemlins/laugh.gif )

Eric B
04-17-2003, 10:21 AM
This modern Christian movement is very large in size but very small in affect. The tools of that movement are ungodly music and ungodly bibles, both of which do extreme harm. Their philosophy is "easy believism." I hate to see a preacher on TV give an invitation at the end of the service and he asks all those who want to be saved to come down front, raise their hand and repaet a little prayer. I do believe that salvation is that simple but it must come from a persons heart and they must first be convicted of the Holy Spirit. If they are not convicted it is very doubtful that they trusted the Lord. I believe some may get saved through that method, but probably only 1 out of 100. This brings up an interesting question. If all those people who raise their hand do not truly get saved, are they given a false hope of salvation and are still bound for hell? I believe so. While it certainly is true that anyone can go down to an altar and not really give their hearts to Christ, still is the deciding factor in the assumption that most today fall into this category the style of music and translation? Should we use old music and translations just to make things "hard", as if salvation is is "hard believism"?
There were probably just as many in the past who fell into this category, and the traditional music and Bible all the more made them feel they were doing good (compare to the 'godless', the 'sensual', etc), and it was "easy" for them as well.
Yes, easy believism is a danger, but let's not tie it to music and translations, as if older is always God's particular way just because it is old.

Su Wei
04-17-2003, 10:11 PM
Enda!

I'm laughing here!!! graemlins/laugh.gif
Whadda mixup! :eek: :eek: :eek:

THousand apologies!!! (That's from Mind your Language.... if you're familiar.)

I guess your gentleness and coureous disposition just sealed in my mind that i was talking to another lady!!! (Not that men are not courteous, mind you! tongue.gif )

Glad to meet you, again, Enda! :D

graemlins/wavey.gif

DanielFive
04-18-2003, 01:58 PM
graemlins/laugh.gif

Su Wei, Thanks for the nice things you've said about me, I hope I can live up to it in the future.

See you around graemlins/thumbs.gif

Enda

PS Yes I used to watch 'Mind Your Language' when I was young. Wouldn't be very politically correct these days. smile.gif

Harald
04-20-2003, 02:48 AM
I am convinced that CCM so called is not of God, but of the world. There was a time when as a young convert I used to buy tapes and listen to what may be labeled as CCM. It was not English, but CCM nevertheless. I thought it was "the thing to do", listening to such music, that is. But after some time I began to be more and more disturbed in my spirit as respected that music, and so I eventually ceased listening to it. It had sort of become an addiction to me also. I never regretted putting it away.

As for CCM and churches I believe true churches of Christ will not tolerate CCM in their services. I come to think about how in England William Huntington and certain others were opposed to the increasing emphasis on music in the services, especially instrumental music. He said it was of the devil, and others with him. If I recall aright his congregation did sing hymns and psalms in the services, but they were opposed to the new thing of bringing in manifold instruments into the meeting house. If such an approach was good enough for Huntington, who was an Independent, and for the old Particular Baptists, then it should be good enough for today's Baptists, if they be of Christ, that is.

About the most beautiful congregational singing I have ever heard was by some Primitive Baptist church in USA. It was non-instrumental, male and female voices mixed in powerful hymn-singing. And the lyrics were Biblical and God-exalting. I happened to come across it on the internet. Such beautiful singing I have never encountered in my country, where all sects and denominations professing Christ have instruments in their services, some more some less.

I think that if some old Baptists like Gill, Kiffin, Knollys etc. were given to visit the earth today they would be shocked at the worldly music posing as "Christian music" amidst the churches who profess to be of Christ.


Harald

Su Wei
04-20-2003, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Harald:
I am convinced that CCM so called is not of God, but of the world. There was a time when as a young convert I used to buy tapes and listen to what may be labeled as CCM. It was not English, but CCM nevertheless. I thought it was "the thing to do", listening to such music, that is. But after some time I began to be more and more disturbed in my spirit as respected that music, and so I eventually ceased listening to it. It had sort of become an addiction to me also. I never regretted putting it away.

As for CCM and churches I believe true churches of Christ will not tolerate CCM in their services. wow. pretty strong statements here!
But i agree!
graemlins/thumbs.gif

Eric B
04-20-2003, 08:07 PM
If one person becomes addicted to CCM (or whatever else), how is it then proven to be no good for anyone/any "true Church"?
And if instruments are the issue, contemporary styles can be sung with less instruments, or even a-capella, so what does that have to do with the spiritual worth of a style?

Harald
04-21-2003, 03:11 AM
My personal experience with CCM, which I briefly stated, was not given in order to prove anything. It was just that a relation of experience. The other statement I made was not based on my experience but on the sum total of what I know about CCM, worldliness, true Christianity etc.

There are some certain things which show that CCM is not of God but of man and of the enemy of souls. If someone can give a few names of some CCM performers that have "made it big", and their respective statements of faith respecting Christ, salvation, the Trinity etc., then it should not be too difficult to assess what spirit they are of, in the light of what the word of God teaches, Isa. 8:20, 1Tim. 6:3-5, 2John 9-11. What a man professes with his mouth (or pen) is what he believes in his heart. If the heart is full of infidelity the mouth professes heretical beliefs. This I believe is the case with most if not all CCM performers.


Harald

Jude
04-21-2003, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Harald:


There are some certain things which show that CCM is not of God but of man and of the enemy of souls. If someone can give a few names of some CCM performers that have "made it big", and their respective statements of faith respecting Christ, salvation, the Trinity etc., then it should not be too difficult to assess what spirit they are of, in the light of what the word of God teaches, ...If the heart is full of infidelity the mouth professes heretical beliefs. This I believe is the case with most if not all CCM performers. Let's see, Harald, you're in to 'conspiracy theories' about George W Bush, and now you're painting with a 'broad-brush' regarding CCM. It is truly amazing that one man has such insight! How on earth would you know what every CCM 'performer' believes? Their are plenty of 'enemies of souls' in this world, Harald. One is called 'bigotry'. Another is 'ignorance'. Another is 'judgementalism'. If one does not like 'instrumental' Christian music, fine. I've actually known people who do not like music! But don't conclude that all CCM is an 'enemy of the soul', simply because you don't 'like it'.

Harald
04-21-2003, 12:24 PM
According to what little knowledge I possess the type of music called CCM began in the 20th century. Thus it is not part of the faith once delivered, which was delivered in the first century. Some has said its roots is in the charismatic movement. The charismatic movement has yet to show it can produce godly fruit. The charismatic movement is one of the last vomits of the dragon, the old serpent, Satan. CCM is not the same as "instrumental Christian music". CCM is thoroughly worldly music dressing up in "Christian" garbs. It is such a wolfish type of music as compared to Biblical standards that it would be even stupid to say it comes as a wolf in sheep clothing. It is manifestly worldly and carnal, the fruit of deceived souls.

Whatever I may think of David W Cloud I think his book on CCM is one of the most worthwhile and important exposes of this ungodly thing.


Harald

wizofoz
04-21-2003, 01:55 PM
I just joined a few days ago, and I may be a little late on this, but.....

There are some songs that supposedly pass for Contemporary Christian, but do not glorify God. But there are a lot of CCM songs out there that do just that. They praise Jesus, lift people up, stir peoples' souls ( I dare anyone to listen to anything Rich Mullins wrote or sung and say that it isn't from God), and do help to bring people to Christ (mostly the younger people, since they are the majority of listeners).

I stated in another post that people are afraid of and tend to criticize anything that is new and different, and unfamiliar. It is a human characteristic.
I would say do more research, let God guide you and give you discernment as to what is and is not of Him.

BTW, only in the last line of "Amazing Grace" is God's name even mentioned. Only in the last line does it say anything about praise. Should we stop singing it?

Alcott
04-21-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by wizofoz:
BTW, only in the last line of "Amazing Grace" is God's name even mentioned. Only in the last line does it say anything about praise. Should we stop singing it? No, just go straight in to that last verse, flubbing the first 4 (3, depending on which song book).

wizofoz
04-21-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Alcott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wizofoz:
BTW, only in the last line of "Amazing Grace" is God's name even mentioned. Only in the last line does it say anything about praise. Should we stop singing it? No, just go straight in to that last verse, flubbing the first 4 (3, depending on which song book). </font>[/QUOTE]Is that what you do? ;)

ScottEmerson
04-21-2003, 11:51 PM
CCM was around way before the 20th century. The same kind of rhetoric was around when people had the audacity to sing in two parts way, way, back when. The same kind of rhetoric came about with the use of the organ. Even more rhetoric came when Handel had the nerve to use some bar tunes as the music for his work "The Messiah."

The fact that people despise such godly men and women as Steven Curtis Chapman, Steve Green, the members of Caedmon's Call, and so on, places them in the same shoes as the who belabored those who came before these artists in praising God.

Eric B
04-22-2003, 12:56 AM
According to what little knowledge I possess the type of music called CCM began in the 20th century. Thus it is not part of the faith once delivered, which was delivered in the first century.

And neither was whatever you sing in church, whether instrumental or not, or even "traditional".
CCM is not the same as "instrumental Christian music". CCM is thoroughly worldly music dressing up in "Christian" garbs. It is such a wolfish type of music as compared to Biblical standards that it would be even stupid to say it comes as a wolf in sheep clothing. It is manifestly worldly and carnal, the fruit of deceived souls. As Scott just said, at one point in time, when your style was new, people in church said the same things. The first century worship was probably more lively than the somber Platonic sound that came from the medieval church period and much of the Reformation.

Harald
04-22-2003, 12:12 PM
As for the first century apostolic congregations one may only speculate what kind their congregational singing was, or perhaps reach some conclusion via study of the NT. I recall Paul briefly refers to this in Eph. chapter 5.

As for the Roman Catholic church and its music I do not know much about it, nor do I care at the present. That church is a great harlot even to this day. Nor do I know much about the Reformation era Protestant music. What I am concerned with first and foremost is the kind of singing that was custom in the British Particular Baptist congregations of the 17th and 18th centuries and in the US sister branch, the old Regular Baptists. While I cannot prove it as for now I believe these Baptists were quite near to the original apostolic assemblies in their singing, except for the language of course. If the apostolic congregations used instruments I think they did not use many different kinds at the same time to accompany the singing. My take is that when Jesus Christ and the apostles celebrated the passover they sang a capella, perhaps some psalm of David.


Harald

Eric B
04-24-2003, 10:55 AM
If you admit you don't know (or care) about the first century "kind of singing", then you can't say that 20th century is "worldly", while only your 127th/18th century Particular Baptist style is "the faith once delivered to the saints", because that is making a presumption of knowledge about the first century (when the faith was delivered to the saints).
Your 17th and 18th century style was what I was including in the "medieval" [Catholic] and Reformation style, which all tended to be somber (whether with many, few, or no instruments, which was not so much my argument), because of Platonic influence, and historical evidence suggests the Biblical worship was not like this, so also your 17th/18th century style was not "the faith once delivered to the saints" either.