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View Full Version : Southern Baptist Hypocrisy - Invest in the Sins of the World


BillyMac
05-15-2004, 02:57 PM
It's all about the money. Just like worldly investors. No difference. The almighty dollar is the bottom line while we denounce the sins of those whom we are supporting.

Just doesn't seem right somehow to me!!!

DALLAS -- The Southern Baptist Convention Annuity Board is drawing criticism from some within the denomination because it owns about $14 million worth of stock in Carnival Cruise Lines, which is hosting a "Gay Days" cruise.

(SNIP)

"The Baptists don't believe in gambling, liquor or pornography, or gays," said Don Allmon, a deacon at First Baptist Church of Dyer, Tenn. "When I say that, we love gays, but we don't like their lifestyle."

Allmon said most Baptists were unfamiliar with the investment but would be upset when they learned about it.

(SNIP)

Karen Weldin, director of operations for Soulforce, a gay rights group that takes issue with the Baptist treatment of homosexuals, said she finds it amusing that the annuity board owns stock in Carnival while boycotting Disney.

"The whole thing just makes me smile a bit about the hypocrisy within the Southern Baptists," Weldin said.

The Baptist board owns about 26,200 shares of Carnival in its Equity Index Fund and 337,600 shares in its Value Index Fund as of Dec. 31, together valued at $14.5 million, according to the Associated Baptist Press, an independent Baptist news service. The board also has holdings in satellite and cable TV companies that provide on-demand or premium-priced pornographic programming.

According to the board's statement, its guidelines prohibit investments in any company publicly recognized "as being in the liquor, tobacco, gambling, pornography or abortion industries." Between 300 and 400 companies are on the board's restricted list, the statement said.

(SNIP)
SOURCE (http://www.news-journal.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Noteworthy/03NewsNOTE05051504.htm)

Different subject I suppose - the quoted statement by Don Allmon:
...said Don Allmon, a deacon at First Baptist Church of Dyer, Tenn. "When I say that, we love gays, but we don't like their lifestyle."find in the Bible where it says to love the sinner, but hate the sin. It's not there that I can find.

rsr
05-15-2004, 03:02 PM
This subject is being discussed at this thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/25/419.html#000005

BillyMac
05-15-2004, 05:18 PM
Yeah...... I went there and got directed back here. Talk about a run around....lol.

Nonetheless, I remain stymied on this subject.

Anyone else feel conflicted??? How do you find balance without abandoning the SBC???

Grasshopper
05-15-2004, 06:55 PM
If you own a Mutual Fund or have a 401k through your employer, you personally probably own some of the same things.

Ben W
05-15-2004, 08:47 PM
I have been in a similar situation where I chose to leave the denomination when I realised that things were not going to change. I grew up in the Salvation Army who run a number of welfare stores and run a secular employment agency and other stuff like that. Sometimes a number of these groups act in a way that is blatent profits driven over what I feel should be their Christian endevour.

One example is the products sold in the stores, often books with horescopes in them or unacceptable videos that are not at all christian, I can go on and on about this, yet at the end of the day when I realised that it would not change, I decided to move on. My suggestion to SBC people is to challenge this head on and have the investment withdrawn and placed into something else. Ethical Investing is becoming more and more popular over extreme capatalism so why not look for another fund that offers a similar return that is an ethical investment.

RandR
05-15-2004, 09:47 PM
Might this just be ABP trying to stir the pot?

But then, if this were the CBF, I'd expect the same treatment from BP. Funny thing, how those Christians treat each other...

As to the topic...I think its a bit disingenuous to divest of some of the stuff they've divested in years past and then come back on this topic with, "only 3% of their income is from gambling..."

Baptist Believer
05-16-2004, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Grasshopper:
If you own a Mutual Fund or have a 401k through your employer, you personally probably own some of the same things. Very true.

Owning stock in a cruise line does not equate to agreeing with everything that goes on on the cruises.

Furthermore, since the SBC Annuity Board is literally a part-owner of Carnival, they can actually have a voice in company business and possibly influence the corporate decisionmaking.

pinoybaptist
05-16-2004, 07:36 AM
BB is right. But, then, again, if $14M dollars represents a huge amount in stocks, then the SBC Annuity Board can at least demand that Gay Day cruises be stopped, or else....

go2church
05-16-2004, 10:42 AM
14 million isn't that much relative to the over all stock market. I am not a big SBC supporter, but this just seems silly to me. Next you won't be able to own ultilities because a gay person might use electricity or want to take a bath...heaven forbid!

LadyEagle
05-16-2004, 11:14 AM
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2569954

Would it help to write & protest?

http://www.sbc.net/contactform.asp

Hardsheller
05-17-2004, 07:39 AM
This is like owning Delta Air Lines Stock and learning that a Gay Group in San Fanscisco charted a Delta Jet to fly to Cancun for a frolic in the sun.

What are you going to do?

Sell your Delta Stock?

As an SBC Pastor, I'm more concerned about the Gambling and drinking on board than the Gay Cruise. Those should be reasons enough to sell the holdings.

dianetavegia
05-17-2004, 08:35 AM
BillyMac said: Find in the Bible where it says to love the sinner, but hate the sin. It's not there that I can find.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not word for word but it's in there. Gotta leave now but if no one else jumps in and shares scripture, I will this afternoon.

Diane

LadyEagle
05-17-2004, 11:39 AM
As an SBC Pastor, I'm more concerned about the Gambling and drinking on board than the Gay Cruise. Those should be reasons enough to sell the holdings. Amen! If there is an "anything goes" attitude, why not invest in a gambling casino in Las Vegas? Or a pornography company? :rolleyes:

Ronald
05-17-2004, 12:27 PM
Diane

You ask where in the bible are we to love the sinner? We show our love to the sinner when we share the gospel with them. When we are CONCERNED for their souls.We also share food and clothing to those in need.We are not to suppose to have the attitude that now that we are saved we should "not even be around those sinful people." Remember where you once were before God's grace found you and I.

Christian love is NOT loving those who love us in return, but to love those who are UN loving. The sins of the sinner Christ will take care of, but reaching the lost and unsaved is our duty and our concern. We are NOW ambassadors for Christ, not secret agents.

gb93433
05-17-2004, 01:20 PM
Just like with the Baptist Foundation of Arizona, they are mixing the world with gospel. I predict their days are numbered. They claim to combat liberalism, but they are indulging in liberalism from within by compromising with the affairs of the world. Do they think God is not big enough to sustain them.

LadyEagle
05-17-2004, 01:33 PM
Since when does "loving" the sinner mean indulging in, partaking of, turning a blind eye to, and condoning the sin? Apples and oranges.

Dr. Bob
05-17-2004, 02:37 PM
Our theology SHOULD "bother" our practice. If we believe alcohol is a sin, we should not invest in the company.

Should be a "no brainer". There are hundreds of mutual funds and stock programs that are designed for conscientious investors. If you are opposed to companies that rape the envionment, invest in a green fund. If you are opposed to tobacco (probably NOT a big issue in the SBC tongue.gif ) then invest accordingly.

It IS hypocrisy to preach against it on Sunday and pay for it on Monday.

ballfan
05-18-2004, 11:20 AM
Sounds like the SBC has been real effective over the years.

Being effective usually brings out the detractors.

Where to invest the money that the world has no influence? Might as well forget investing. That would include the individual Christians who invest. Even something as innocent sounding as a "green" group will have people supporting all kinds of perversions.

LadyEagle
05-18-2004, 12:27 PM
So why not invest in "Christian" stocks?

There are plenty of companies out there and plenty of choices.

Like Chik-Fila.

Like Word publishing.

Like Thomas Nelson.

The list is endless.

mark
05-18-2004, 12:32 PM
I disagree with the analogy of a San Fran group chartering a flight on Delta. There is a difference between being open for business and selling your product to anyone and advertising that you want to promote sin. It isn't the same thing at all.

donnA
05-18-2004, 01:12 PM
find in the Bible where it says to love the sinner, but hate the sin. It's not there that I can find. The bible says that while you were a sinner God loved you enough to die for you. To love someone even though they sin is godly. If God did not love the sinner we'd all be destined to hell with no hope in eternity.
There are people who love you, even though you still sin, God still loves you even though you still sin.

ballfan
05-18-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by LadyEagle:
So why not invest in "Christian" stocks?

There are plenty of companies out there and plenty of choices.

Like Chik-Fila.

Like Word publishing.

Like Thomas Nelson.

The list is endless. How far would you go in investigating the companies they might have investments in or people who invest in them might have.

Hardsheller
05-18-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by mark:
I disagree with the analogy of a San Fran group chartering a flight on Delta. There is a difference between being open for business and selling your product to anyone and advertising that you want to promote sin. It isn't the same thing at all. It was my understanding that a third party company - Travel Agency had arranged for the Gay Cruise.

LadyEagle
05-18-2004, 06:09 PM
How far would you go in investigating the companies they might have investments in or people who invest in them might have. As far as is necessary to be a good steward. We are all accountable to God, for what we do with what we have been given by His hand. It's a sad day when Christians compromise for the almighty buck. graemlins/tear.gif

blackbird
05-18-2004, 06:51 PM
I have Wal-Mart stock---and they sell beer?? What do I do??

I have ExxonMobile stock---and their C-Stores sell Cigarettes, beer, and condoms---what do I do??

I don't buy the cigarettes, beer, or condoms---thats what I do!

Whats the SBC to do---not invest in that Asphalt company just because that asphalt was paid for out of "Sin" taxes for highway use??

LadyEagle
05-18-2004, 06:54 PM
Well, blackbird, then should they invest in a porn company - pornography seems to be doing well these days. Are there any limits?

donnA
05-18-2004, 11:40 PM
Equally, do you investigate the businesses whose products you buy to make sure they are not supporting homosexuality, or abortion? It would be good stewartship too. You are investing in them too when you purchase their products. You may be investing in that porn when you buy your dish liquid or that brand of jeans you like.

LadyEagle
05-19-2004, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by donnA:
Equally, do you investigate the businesses whose products you buy to make sure they are not supporting homosexuality, or abortion? It would be good stewartship too. You are investing in them too when you purchase their products. You may be investing in that porn when you buy your dish liquid or that brand of jeans you like. It seems some are going off the deep end here. What the OP is about is the SBC annuity fund, in other words, a retirement fund which I am supposing most of the SBC pastors contribute to.

So, we're talking about a retirement fund in an organization which has actively taken a stand against Disney on the one hand, but is now justifying their seemingly reversal of position when it comes to how they have been stewards of the retirement fund.

Some look at this as hypocrisy.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, it's not MY retirement fund we're talking about. I, like everyone else on this board, and like the people who are investors in this fund (401K), etc., and those who manage this fund, WILL stand before the Lord one day and we will ALL be accountable to Him.

I do not KNOWINGLY support the gay cause either directly or indirectly.

If the Annuity Board of the SBC did not know, that is different. But the fact is, they DO know. (The meat has not only been offered to idols and they know it, they're making money off of it, to paraphrase.)

I did send them an email. I would think SBC pastors would send an email, but like I said, it is not MY retirement fund. I only posted on this thread because I have recently joined an SBC church. Otherwise, I'd keep my nose and opinions out of it.

Guess it's stuff like this why IFBs and GARBCs end up not having a cooperative retirement fund, when you have no control over how your money is invested. There's something to be said for autonomy.

Here is their official statement on the subject:

https://www.absbc.org/main/page.asp?f=press&s=2004&c=05_18

rsr
05-19-2004, 12:36 AM
Well, there are degrees.

Do you buy Levi's jeans? Do you know that it has cut off funding for the Boys Scouts of America?

We could go on and on.

LadyEagle
05-19-2004, 12:39 AM
No and yes.

ballfan
05-19-2004, 12:51 AM
Whats the SBC to do---not invest in that Asphalt company just because that asphalt was paid for out of "Sin" taxes for highway use?? Better yet should we refuse to drive on that asphalt?

If we keep going I do believe we're going to find out who's qualified to throw the first stone.

Dr. Bob
05-19-2004, 03:43 AM
Slightly off topic - I cruise twice a year and the number of openly gay (mostly sodomite males) people on ANY cruise is increasing alarmingly.

Be aware of that if you take children. Predators function at sea, too.

Aaron
05-19-2004, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by rsr:
Well, there are degrees.

Do you buy Levi's jeans? Do you know that it has cut off funding for the Boys Scouts of America?

We could go on and on. And we will soon learn what was meant when the Spirt warned us that those staying faithful to Christ would soon not be able to either buy or sell.

The End is truly near.

Ben W
05-19-2004, 07:50 AM
I think that for all those that are advocating profiting from the things that the church preaches against, that this verse of scripture might be a good one to think about.

Proverbs 16:2 "We can always 'prove' that we are right, but is the Lord convinced?"

donnA
05-19-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by donnA:
Equally, do you investigate the businesses whose products you buy to make sure they are not supporting homosexuality, or abortion? It would be good stewartship too. You are investing in them too when you purchase their products. You may be investing in that porn when you buy your dish liquid or that brand of jeans you like. It seems some are going off the deep end here. What the OP is about is the SBC annuity fund, in other words, a retirement fund which I am supposing most of the SBC pastors contribute to.

So, we're talking about a retirement fund in an organization which has actively taken a stand against Disney on the one hand, but is now justifying their seemingly reversal of position when it comes to how they have been stewards of the retirement fund.

Some look at this as hypocrisy.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, it's not MY retirement fund we're talking about. I, like everyone else on this board, and like the people who are investors in this fund (401K), etc., and those who manage this fund, WILL stand before the Lord one day and we will ALL be accountable to Him.

I do not KNOWINGLY support the gay cause either directly or indirectly.

If the Annuity Board of the SBC did not know, that is different. But the fact is, they DO know. (The meat has not only been offered to idols and they know it, they're making money off of it, to paraphrase.)

I did send them an email. I would think SBC pastors would send an email, but like I said, it is not MY retirement fund. I only posted on this thread because I have recently joined an SBC church. Otherwise, I'd keep my nose and opinions out of it.

Guess it's stuff like this why IFBs and GARBCs end up not having a cooperative retirement fund, when you have no control over how your money is invested. There's something to be said for autonomy.

Here is their official statement on the subject:

https://www.absbc.org/main/page.asp?f=press&s=2004&c=05_18 </font>[/QUOTE]So when it concerns you personally then the answer is obviously 'no'.

LadyEagle
05-19-2004, 04:42 PM
What's with the personal attack? You're off topic, Donna.

blackbird
05-20-2004, 12:10 AM
It seems that the O S Hawkins explained this line of investing at one of the conventions a few years back---

donnA
05-21-2004, 01:56 PM
No personal attack. You did not answer, I can only conclude from your answer.
Not off topic, it is about using money, when you make purshases you are investing your money in whatever the company recieving it want to do with it.

LadyEagle
05-21-2004, 05:45 PM
Oh, but I did answer: Here it is again:

I do not KNOWINGLY support the gay cause either directly or indirectly.

If the Annuity Board of the SBC did not know, that is different. But the fact is, they DO know. You can conclude whatever you want to conclude about my finances which is NOT the topic being discussed here. The topic is NOT about individuals using money, it is specifically about how the SBC uses other people's money, money they have been entrusted with.

There is a difference but apparently you can't see that. If you want to start a topic about how individuals spend their own money, feel free to start one.

Dr. Bob
05-22-2004, 02:40 AM
Agree. Let's stick with the issue. The SBC (fund) is opting to invest in a broad fashion. That is their right.

And any opposed to such SHOULD noise it abroad.

blackbird
05-22-2004, 07:49 AM
Doctor Bob says, "And any opposed to such SHOULD noise it abroad."

Like in June's Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Indianapolis----when business session comes up---get yourself up---grab a microphone---address yourself and start talkin'---its your right as a SBC messenger!

When Brother Hawkins is presenting the Annuity Board report at its given time---there is always a slot allowed for "Question/Answer Period"---chances are---he knows about this "hoop-la" already---he may have been born at night---but it wasn't last night!----I'm almost certain there'll be somebody there who can straighten this whole mess out!!

RandR
05-23-2004, 11:37 PM
I'd look for a motion to be made during one of the business sessions to direct the AB to divest itself of Carnival. It will then be "referred" to the annuity board to study the matter. Then next year, there will be one line in the report saying why exactly they opted to stay in.

Oops, I said AB. I mean't "Guidestone." Whatever.

Dr. Bob
05-24-2004, 12:27 AM
Makes me thankful I'm an historic ifb'er and not in a convention. Grrr.

donnA
05-28-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Oh, but I did answer: Here it is again:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I do not KNOWINGLY support the gay cause either directly or indirectly.

If the Annuity Board of the SBC did not know, that is different. But the fact is, they DO know. You can conclude whatever you want to conclude about my finances which is NOT the topic being discussed here. The topic is NOT about individuals using money, it is specifically about how the SBC uses other people's money, money they have been entrusted with.

There is a difference but apparently you can't see that. If you want to start a topic about how individuals spend their own money, feel free to start one. </font>[/QUOTE]1. Been seeing several topics where not all your posts are 100% on topic
2. It's not other people's money. Once you give it away it isn't yours anymore.
3. It isn't your 'own money', it is still God's, He allows you to use it.
4. The SBC does not book the cruises, so has no control if homosexuals go on cruises. Dr. Bob goes on cruises with lots of gays on board. Is that wrong too?

LadyEagle
05-28-2004, 04:45 PM
For those who are interested SBC RESPONSE TO MY EMAIL:

It is real long, so these are the last two paragraphs: (from webmaster@absbc.org)



Carnival has only 3% of its income
from gambling on ship. We wish they received none of it from such
enterprises. A recent press release from a moderate Baptist news source
also questions the use of Carnival Cruise Lines by several well-known
Southern Baptists leaders. I suppose one could argue that Carnival is
"publicly recognized" by Southern Baptists as being the world's largest
floating Bible Study since many of our most respected SBC leaders and
former Presidents of the SBC have regular Bible Study cruises on
Carnival which accommodate thousands of Southern Baptists and other
Christians. It is our contention that due to the use of our Southern
Baptists leaders of Carnival and to the very nature of the company it is
"publicly recognized" as being in the vacation-entertainment industry.
We wish hotels, airlines, cruise ships, etc. did not serve alcohol and
the like but if we start down that road there is no end and the result
would be no possibility of having a diversified portfolio and the
potential of litigation from other participants would be a stark
possibility. As it is now we have a sound moral policy and a track
record that screened funds can produce competitive results. Of course,
if the SBC called for a boycott of Carnival we would follow suit as we
did with the Disney issue.

Again, I could go on and on related to this issue but I hope the
preceding information is helpful in understanding what we do and how we
do it. It is a much more involved issue for a retirement organization
than just saying, "Do away with this company because it does this or
that." We do not hold stock in hundreds of companies that are publicly
recognized as being in the alcohol, tobacco, gambling, pornography,
abortion, etc business. The Annuity Board is committed to its origin and
identity as an entity of the Southern Baptist Convention. At the same
time, we must function in a manner that is legally sound and sensitive
to fiduciary and legal duties to maximize the economic return to
participants while maintaining moral standards at the same time. As God
knows our hearts, we take these issues very seriously.

As to Carnival we are continuing to research and evaluate it at the
present time.

It's not other people's money. Once you give it away it isn't yours anymore.BTW, Donna, the annuity fund is not money people have given away or put in an offering plate. It's a 401(K) for retirement. Not a donation, but an investment in a retirement fund - money thousands have SBC pastors and missionaries have entrusted the SBC to take care of (kinda like a savings account) for them until they can retire and draw it back out as pension. See?

It isn't your 'own money', it is still God's, He allows you to use it.
You're right. Whether it's you or me or the SBC. smile.gif

The SBC does not book the cruises, so has no control if homosexuals go on cruises. The SBC does not book who goes to Disney World either for Gay Days, but boycotted Disney. That's the point I was trying to make. The SBC has shown a double standard. But at least, according to the above email, they will be looking into it.

Ben W
05-29-2004, 12:32 AM
I am not to sure that I agree with there reasoning, Christian investment can be made in companies that conduct themselves in a Christian manner. I can not see that it is approriate to preach against Alcohol, Gambling and Homosexuality. Then say it is ok to make profit by investing into companies that profit from that type of thing,

I think that they should get some people that have served in Local SBC churches as Elders for many years to examine the issue without being concerned about loss of revenue streams, but to consider its implication spiritually. I would then think that their reccomendation should be put to a vote. As it concerns doctrine.