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Caissie
03-25-2004, 10:33 PM
Jesus did not die on "Good Friday"

Does it matter?
I will show you in the following article that Jesus died on a Wednesday. This is not an important issue though. I their are many more issues that are far more important. One reason I bring this up is just in case you are ever in a debate with a scoffer that knows the bible or someone who is saying, "see, the bible has errors." One of the reasons that some Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah was because they think that Jesus died on Friday and was raised on Sunday (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq079.html).]. This will give you ammo to defend the bible. The other reason I bring this up is to show you that you shouldn't take anyone's word for anything. Check it out! The only word that is perfect is The Word.





The Proof
When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign that He was really the Messiah, Jesus said, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Matthew 12:38-40

We could debate about the 3 days, but there is no debate about the 3 nights. You can't get 3 nights from Friday night to Sunday Morning.

Ok, lets go over some facts:


1. The Hebrew day starts in the evening and ends the following evening.
(Leviticus 23:32)

2. Jesus died on the day before Sabbath (a preparation day)

3. There are 2 types of Sabbaths, the regular Sabbath that occurs every Friday evening until Saturday evening. Then there are the High Days, that are the annual Sabbaths.

4. The preparation day that Jesus died on was preparation for a High Day.
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,)..."John 19:31


5. Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus, Sunday morning and Jesus was already gone. "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay." (Matthew 28:1-6)


6. The feast of unleavened bread is called the Passover. (Luke 22:1)


More Scriptures:


1. Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified. (Matthew 26:2)


2. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. (Luke 22:7) Note that they kill the passover on the first day of unleavened bread.


3. Remember when Pilate gave the people a choice to release either Barabbas or Jesus, and the people chose to release Barabbas. The reason why he gave them the choice was because it was Passover. "But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?" (John 18:39)


4. And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the Passover of the LORD. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein: (Numbers 28:16-18)


This is the really cool part!
Jesus died on the passover. Remember, the Hebrew day starts in the evening. So, Tuesday evening was the beginning of the passover. They ate the passover supper that night, then walked around in Gethsemane. The disciples slept, while Jesus prayed, then Jesus was taken by the soldiers and crucified on Wednesday afternoon which was still passover. They had to take his body off the cross because the next day was a Sabbath which was a high day (an annual Sabbath). Jesus was then in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights just like He said. Some say He rose Saturday afternoon, between 3pm and 6pm. Some say He rose at 6:01pm which would be the first day of the week (Sunday), but Mark 10:34 says that Jesus would rise on the third day. The first day of the week (Sunday) would have been the fourth day.

The really cool thing is in the Old Testament God told the Jews to sacrifice a lamb without blemish for their sins on passover, afterwards they had "the Feast" (Exodus 12:1-30).

Jesus is the "Lamb of God", (John 1:29 and John 1:36) "without blemish" (1 Peter 1:19) who was sacrificed for us on passover! Paul even said that Jesus was our passover and that we should keep the feast. "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast,..." (1 Cor 5:7-8)


Please tell me what you think of this article, agree or disagree, or whatever.

Thanks

Daniel David
03-26-2004, 12:09 AM
Any part of a day can and was considered a day.

If I say I went to work today, few people if any would think I was there for 24 hours.

The same is true in the Hebrew language.

How nice though, another argument on the day he died based upon one verse wrenched out of context. This doesn't get old.

Jim Ward
03-26-2004, 12:43 AM
Excellent Cassie graemlins/applause.gif

I want to add one passage to what you posted that help show the fallacy of the view that says Jesus was in the grave anything less then three days AND three nights.

"Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:17)

You posted for us the following:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40)

Did Jesus lie or was he in the grave for three days AND three nights, which will either disprove a Sunday resurrection, or as your post correctly proclaimes, does away with a Friday crucifixion.

My Pastor has a handout on the days leading up to the crucifixion, I'll try to locate my copy and post it here.


Jim

Daniel David
03-26-2004, 12:55 AM
Again, the Jews used various expressions in their day.

Day and night referred to that day. Jesus was in the grave for 3 days.

Caissie
03-26-2004, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Daniel David:
Again, the Jews used various expressions in their day.

Day and night referred to that day. Jesus was in the grave for 3 days. And you get this idea from where? The Bible? (A footnote in a bible does not count. That is still someone's interpretation.) Or did some one tell you this?

Gen 1:4-5
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night

Caissie
03-26-2004, 01:55 AM
Look in the Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionary. Look at both words that are mentioned here.

day: http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=2250

night: http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=3571

It is clear as day and night.

pinoybaptist
03-26-2004, 07:02 AM
This confuses my simple monkey brain. If per Strong's definition, a part of a day is regarded as a whole day, and the Bible says Jesus died at what we call 3p.m. in our time, and which is considered a day in Eastern usage according to Strong......uhmm, let me see:

If a 24 hour period for the Jews is sundown to sundown, then Wednesday-Thursday is one day, one night; Thursday-Friday is one day, one night, and Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is one day, one night.

The Bible indicates many times that Jesus will rise on the third day, not a fraction before or a fraction after.

If He rose on Sunday morning, as you say He did, then He rose on the fourth day within the 24 hour period of Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown. Wednesday makes the Seventh day Adventists correct in worshipping on a Saturday, since they consider Saturday as the first day of the week.

I don't think you are an Adventist, per your profile, so please do a little simpler math for this poor ignorant brown monkey ?

Thank you.

Ben W
03-26-2004, 07:09 AM
This is one piece of theology that I agree with, the Wednesday Crucifiction is not popular in alot of circles, but factual nonetheless.

People do not consider that Friday was a High Sabbath. Even today this still is the case before passover for the Jews.

I first learnt about this idea from the Church of God Seventh Day, yet I would be very much interested to hear of a Baptist Denomination that has officially adopted this teaching.

pinoybaptist
03-26-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Ben W:
This is one piece of theology that I agree with, the Wednesday Crucifiction is not popular in alot of circles, but factual nonetheless.

People do not consider that Friday was a High Sabbath. Even today this still is the case before passover for the Jews.

I first learnt about this idea from the Church of God Seventh Day, yet I would be very much interested to hear of a Baptist Denomination that has officially adopted this teaching. I forgot who it was, but, some years ago, there was this guy who came out with the theory that Jesus died on a Thursday and not a Friday.

I agree with the thought that Jesus did not die on a Friday, though. Friday is purely traditional, mostly Catholic tradition.

North Carolina Tentmaker
03-26-2004, 09:02 AM
John Phillips provides the following timeline for the last week of Jesus life on pages 223 to 225 in his commentary on the gospel of John. It has been very helpful to me.

A. The Sixth Day before the Passover
The 9th day of Nisan
Our Thursday Sunset to Friday Sunset
</font> The Lord approaches Jerusalem from Jerico (Luke 19:1-10)
He spends Thursday night with Zaccheus (Luke 19:11-27)
He enters Jerusalem and cleanses the temple (Matthew 21:1-16)
He goes to Bethany (John 12:1)</font>
B. The Fifth Day before the Passover
The 10th day of Nisan
Our Friday Sunset to Saturday Sunset
</font> The Lord spends the sabbath at Bethany. After sunset the first of three suppers was given, probably at the house of Lazarus (John 12:2)
Mary of Bethany anointed Jesus (John 12:3-11)</font>
C. The Fourth Day before the Passover
The 11th day of Nisan
Our Saturday Sunset to Sunday Sunset
</font> The triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Mark 11:1-7; Luke 19:29-35; John 12:12)
He returns to Bethany (Mark 11:11)</font>
D. The Third Day before the Passover
The 12th day of Nisan
Our Sunday Sunset to Monday Sunset
</font> The Lord returns to Jerusalem and curses the fig tree (Matthew 21:18-22)
The coming of the Greeks (John 12:20-50)
Opposition from the rulers (Mark 11:12-18)
The Lord leaves Jerusalem, probably for Bethany (Luke 11:19)</font>
E. The Second Day before the Passover
The 13th of Nisan
Our Monday Sunset to Tuesday Sunset
</font> The Lord returns to Jerusalem (Matthew 21:23-23:39; Mark 11:20-12:44; Luke 20:1-21:38)
The Lord gives his Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:1-25:46)
The time note: "After two days is the Passover" (Matthew 26:1-5; Mark 14:1-2)
The Lord returns to Bethany. The second supper, in the house of Simon the leper. The second anointing (Matthew 26:6-13; Luke 14:3-9)</font>
F. The Day before the Passover
The 14th of Nisan
Our Tuesday Sunset to Wednesday Sunset
The Day of the Crucifixion
</font> The plot of Judas (Matthew 26:14-16)
The "preparation" for the last supper (Matthew 26:17-19). The words in Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 refer to "the first day of unleavened bread" (the 14th day of Nisan, "the preparation day")
In the evening the Lord goes to the upper room and washes the disciples' feet (Matthew 26:21-25; John 13:1-20
The Lord reveals the traitor (John 13:21-30)
The Lord eats the Passover and makes the New Covenant (Matthew 26:26-29)
The Lord foretells Peter's denials (John 13:31-38)
The Lord talks to his disciples and prays for them (John 14:1-17:26)
They go to Gethsemane (Matthew 26:30-35; John 18:1)\
The Lord is arrested (Matthew 26:47-56; John 18:2-11)
The trials (Matthew 26:57-27:31; John 18:12-19:13)
The crucifixion (the "third hour"-9 a.m. Wednesday)(Mark 15:25-26)
The Lord's mother commended to John's care (john 19:25-27)
The Lord dies at "the ninth hour" (3 p.m. Wednesday)(John 19:31-37)
The Lord's hasty burial (John 19:38-42)</font>
One thing that Dr. Philips does not emphasize is that the 'passover' meal that Jesus shared with his disciples, which we remember as the last supper was in fact the preparation meal or feast of unleavened bread. No lamb was consumed as the passover lambs were killed the next day, at the very hours Jesus hung on the cross.

Jim Ward
03-26-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Daniel David:
Again, the Jews used various expressions in their day.

Day and night referred to that day. Jesus was in the grave for 3 days. Except you miss the simple fact that in Hebrew when the word 'yome' (day) is used and has included in it words such as, first day, one day, three days, three night, second day, seventh day, and so forth, that it is in every instance limited to a period of 24 hours.

Thge fact that Jesus indicated three days AND three nights for His time in the grave and referenced it to the three 24 hour periods that Jonah was in the belly of the great fish, leaves no room for Him to be crucified on Friday and raised on Sunday.

What the Friday crucifixionists need to show, is where the three nights were from Friday to Sunday morning.


Jim

Jim Ward
03-26-2004, 09:28 AM
Thanks for posting that timeline Tentmaker. Keeps me from having to dig for my copy graemlins/thumbs.gif

Well, correction, I'm still going to dig it out, I just don't need to post it since you were kind enough to do so for us.


Jim

Caissie
03-26-2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by pinoybaptist:

If He rose on Sunday morning, as you say He did, then He rose on the fourth day within the 24 hour period of Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown. Wednesday makes the Seventh day Adventists correct in worshipping on a Saturday, since they consider Saturday as the first day of the week.

I don't think you are an Adventist, per your profile, so please do a little simpler math for this poor ignorant brown monkey ?

Thank you. I think this is addressed to me, so here is my answer:

I never said he rose from the grave Sunday morning. I said, "Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus, Sunday morning and Jesus was already gone." And then I said, "Some say He rose Saturday afternoon, between 3pm and 6pm. Some say He rose at 6:01pm which would be the first day of the week (Sunday), but Mark 10:34 says that Jesus would rise on the third day. The first day of the week (Sunday) would have been the fourth day.

To make it simpler...Jesus died 3pm on Wednesday, put in the grave sometime between 3pm and 5:59pm on that day and rose somewhere between 3pm and 5:59 pm on Saturday.

If this is what the Seventh day Adventists beilieve then they are correct. I am not big on denominations. I believe God gave me a brain to...(now this is a shocker)... think with. That means to read the Bible for myself and with the Holy Spirit's help, come to the conclusion. If I relied on someone else to do the thinking, that would be occultic behavior. I do not care what the official doctrine is for any church. I only care about finding the truth. Also, I have learned that NO ONE is right on EVERYTHING. Not even the apostles were right on everything. (Just look at all the times where they would get in debates.) So I do not have to agree with ANYONE on EVERYTHING (and I do not). So with that in mind, I can safely say that even the Baptist church does not have all their doctrines right (and neither do I). And if a person does not accept a doctrine just because a cult had it right before his denomination did. He is sinning (pride).

TC
03-26-2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
This confuses my simple monkey brain. If per Strong's definition, a part of a day is regarded as a whole day, and the Bible says Jesus died at what we call 3p.m. in our time, and which is considered a day in Eastern usage according to Strong......uhmm, let me see:

If a 24 hour period for the Jews is sundown to sundown, then Wednesday-Thursday is one day, one night; Thursday-Friday is one day, one night, and Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is one day, one night.

The Bible indicates many times that Jesus will rise on the third day, not a fraction before or a fraction after.

If He rose on Sunday morning, as you say He did, then He rose on the fourth day within the 24 hour period of Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown. Wednesday makes the Seventh day Adventists correct in worshipping on a Saturday, since they consider Saturday as the first day of the week.

I don't think you are an Adventist, per your profile, so please do a little simpler math for this poor ignorant brown monkey ?

Thank you. Is Strong's infallible? If Jesus was buried at sundown on Wednesday, then to sundown Saturday is 3 complete 24 hour days. And since the Jewish day began at sundown, Jesus's resurrection was on the first day of the week - which fulfills His words of three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. When the women came to the grave - while it was still dark - early on the first day of the week, Jesus was already resurrected. The Wednesday crucifixion does not contradict the Bible and IMHO it is more reasonable than the traditional Catholic 'Good Friday' one.

I came to believe that the 'Good Friday' tradition was wrong long before I read any other opinion on the subject. Being the literalist I am, I just couldn't believe three days and three nights fit from Friday sundown to Sunday early while it was still dark.

My sister is adventist and they do not believe that Saturday is the first day of the week. Even all their literature (propaganda) states that sabbath (Saturday) is the seventh day of the week. Hence their name - seventh day adventists.

pinoybaptist
03-26-2004, 07:32 PM
Thank you, TC. Now, no matter what I do, I still come to the conclusion that if Jesus rose from the dead at 6:01 pm Saturday, then he spent a minute more than three days and three nights plus the extra two or three hours Wednesday which belonged to the Tuesday-Wednesday 24 hours period.

As for the Adventist thing, yes, you're right, my mistake. I apologize.

Johnv
03-26-2004, 07:37 PM
This is an old arguement. While not all that important, it's certainly worthy of discussion:

Taking the idea that Matthew 12:40 referrins to 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth and mandates three full 24 hour periods, then Jesus would have died on a Wednesday and rose on Saturday night. This view hinges on a literal reading of Matthew 12:40, but require a reinterpretation of the Sabbath day to be a reference to the Passover.

Taking the idea that Matthew 12:40 referrs to 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth and mandates at least a portion of a day and a portion of a night, then Jesus would have died on a Thursday. As before, this view hinges on a literal reading of Matthew 12:40, but require a reinterpretation of the Sabbath day to be a reference to the Passover.

Taking the idea in 1 Cor 15:4; Acts 10:40 that Jesus was raised on the third day, and taking into consideration that the Jews commonly spoke of 3 days and 3 nights as any portion thereof, then Jesus died on a Friday, and Jesus was taken down from the cross just prior to the Sabbath (Mt 27:42-43). This view is supported throughout the New Testament.

Audra
03-26-2004, 10:03 PM
If you believe the bible infallible, then the only way all of those scriptures can be stated truthfully together is to say Christ was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. Meaning a full 3 days and 3 nights, not part of.
Otherwise, you say the bible isn't true.

Jim Ward
03-27-2004, 11:44 AM
Amen Audra. It's either beleive the Bible, or believe the 3 day 2 night myth that has no support in Scripture.


Jim

Daniel David
03-27-2004, 12:19 PM
Audra, your either or scenerio does not take into account all possibilities. I am a strict inerrantist (even going so far to doubt the validity of someone's salvation if they deny inerrancy). You can't play that card with me.

freeatlast
03-27-2004, 04:35 PM
Jesus referred to the prophet Jonah, just as he was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so would He be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:39-40; Luke 11:30. On another occasion, Jesus stated that He would destroy the temple, and He would raise it again in three days. John 2:19. (This is referring to His body, as his body became the living temple/tabernacle on earth).

Matt 27:62-64: “Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

Mark 15:42-44: “Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time.” This means it was Friday afternoon since the Sabbath day begins at sundown.

Luke 23:54-56: “That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.”

Talmud states he died on the eve of the Sabbath, because he practiced sorcery and took them from their God. Mk.14:12 says on the first day of the Unleaven Bread when they sacrificed the Passover.

John 19:31-33: “Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.”

A high Sabbath was one that landed on a feast day.

The Gospels of Mark, Luke and John all make it clear that Jesus' burial occurred shortly after His death on the day of “preparation” (Friday) before the Sabbath (Saturday), and ends at the sunset of each day. Mark 15:37-47; Luke 23:53-56; John 19:31. In order for Jesus to have been buried just before the Sabbath (Saturday), Jesus' crucifixion could only have occurred on Friday.

The Bible is clear that Jesus was crucified on the Passover Friday, then buried later that (Friday) afternoon or evening before the Sabbath (Saturday), and then rose from the dead the first day of the week (Sunday). How could there be a fulfillment of Jesus' prediction that He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? What exactly does this mean? 3- literal 24- hour days or a statement related to a certain time period.

In Old Testament the expression “one day and one night” was an idiom used often by the Jews for a day, even when it was applied to only a part of a day. The Jewish reference to this period as three days and three nights is strictly in accordance with the Jewish mode of reckoning. Evening and morning, or night and day, is the Hebrew phrase for a natural day. It was a maxim among the Jews in computing time, that a part of a day was to be received or computed as the whole.

Christ was dead at three o’clock on Friday, they had before six o’clock, three hours to bury Him. After going through the red tape with the Romans it took less than an hour. The Jewish reckoning of time is found in the Jewish Talmud and the Babylonian Jerusalem Talmud (the commentaries of the Jews), said any part, an “onan”, any part of the day is considered a full day. On Friday before six o'clock by Jewish reckoning, any minute was considered one day and one night. From Friday night at six o'clock to Saturday at six o'clock, was another day and another night. From Saturday night to Sunday was a third day. Thus, Jesus was in the grave part of Friday (a whole “natural day”), through all of Saturday (the second day), and from Saturday at sunset a part of Sunday (the third day). Thus, it is likely that the part of the day (Friday) on which Jesus was crucified, the entire day He was in the grave (Saturday), and the part of the day on which He rose again (Sunday), estimated as entire days. The concept of three days would be an idiom, not necessarily meaning 3 full 24- hour periods.

Genesis 42:17 shows us this idiomatic usage was common in their culture. Joseph had his brothers imprisoned for three days; in v.18, he speaks to them and releases them, on the third day. I Samuel 30:12, 13: “For he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights,” and in the next verse, “My master left me behind… three days ago.” There are other instances in the Bible in which part of a day is viewed as constituting a whole. For example, the same quantity of time referred to in the Gospel accounts of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection as three days and three nights, which in reality was only one whole day, a part of two others, and two whole nights, is termed three days and three nights in the book of Esther. Compare Esther 4:16 (“Go ...neither eat nor drink three days, night or day . . . and so will I go in unto the king”), with Esther 5:1 (“On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall”) this is also found in 2 Chr.10:5, 12; Gen. 42:17-18; 1 Kings 20:29; Luke 2:21.

The Jews were aware of Jesus' prophecy. Matt. 27:63. The fact that the Jews asked that a command be given that the sepulcher be made secure “until the third day” showed that when the Jews spoke of “three days,” Matt. 27:64, they did not of necessity mean three “whole (24) days,” but parts of three days, as was the case of Jesus' lying dead in the grave. While this is debated the evidence for which day He rose is absolutely clarified in Scripture.

WHAT DAY DID JESUS RISE?

Matt. 28:1-2: “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.” The first day of the week is Sunday according to Judaism, since Saturday is the 7th day.

Mark 16:1-4: “Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?” But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away-- for it was very large.”

Luke 24:1: “Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.”

John 20:1 “On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.”

“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish so will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth.” This is a statement of nature and fact not of time. In rebuttal to the Pharisees not believing his miracles only one last one will be given the resurrection. He’s expressing that he will die giving Jonah as a pre-type of his death and resurrection. It was an idiom used for what He would do. How do we know this? All one has to do is read the eyewitness accounts which verify what was meant.

Luke 24:21-23 “But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. “Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive.”

Jesus has twice appeared to people none of which were the apostles but disciples. Cleopas and the other disciple had disbelieved the two reports already given of the resurrection. It is now the third day since all these things have occurred. If he was in three 24 hour periods it would have read the 4th day. The scripture is absolutely clear in the eyewitness testimonies on this.

The testimony of Paul who refers to the scriptures as his validation 1 Cor. 15:3-4: “ For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that he was buried and that He rose again the THIRD day; according to the Scriptures. third day, and showed Him openly.” If it was 3 full 24-hours Paul would have said after the third day or more precisely the fourth day.

The apostles offered Jesus 'post resurrection appearances as “many convincing proofs” (Acts 1:3). The Resurrection was the catalyst for their powerful fearless preaching of Christ as the Son of God (Acts. 2:22-36; 4:2,10; 13:32-41; 17:1-4,22-31).

He rose just as He said he would- on the 3rd day.

THE TIME OF THE CRUCIFIXION

Is there a contradiction between Mark’s account and John’s of the timing of Jesus death?

Darkness was over the land Lk.23:44 Now it was the 6th hour (12:00) and there was darkness over all the earth until the 9th hr. (3:00) Mk.15:33 and Mt.27:45 state the same thing.

Mk.15:25: “Now it was the 3rd hour and they crucified him.”

John 19:14: “It was about the 6th hour he was on trial.”

Mark in his text tells us the crucifixion took place on the 3rd hour using the Jewish reckoning of time, which means around 9 AM in the morning. The Jews measured time by breaking the day into 12 hours twice, with an additional 4 watches in each 12 hour period. The new day in Jewish time began at sunset and the morning began at sun up approx.6 AM.

The apparent contradiction with John’s writing can be easily solved through the centuries of time. It would be hard to accept that John with the other Gospels written over a period of 20 years together, wrote his last with a span of 30 more years later would introduce an independent reckoning of his own. And not taking into account what was already handwritten and bring confusion in the records.

What we need to understand is that John is writing from Asia Minor at least 30 years after the events transpired 70-95 A.D. When John wrote his Gospel the Jewish temple was destroyed and the nation was scattered. So everyone was now under Roman influence, whereas before they existed partly under Rome still functioning as Israel. So when he wrote there was no more Jewish standard of time only Roman. So John used the official Roman mode of computing time. The 6th hour would be 6 AM as they counted the day from 12 midnight as we still do today. This would coincide exactly with the other writers who used the Jewish reckoning of time. The trial was early in the morning and the crucifixion approximately began at 9:00 in the morning lasting until 3 in the afternoon. So John consistently used Roman time while the other Gospel writers use the Jewish standard. Therefore there is no conflict in the accounts.
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct10.htm

Jim Ward
03-27-2004, 07:23 PM
(note from JMW.. I have the following saved in the My Documents folder on my comp. I do not recall from whom I got it but due to the truth contained, I am posting it here for you.)


No one disputes that Jesus arose on Sunday morning, but there is much debate as to what day He was crucified. Most of us were taught Friday was the day Jesus was crucified and this has been widely accepted as the traditional day of crucifixion. But if Christ was crucified on Friday, how was He in the grave for three days and
three nights as Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 He would be? Some of people began to say that Jesus was the son of David, which is a term for the Messiah, after He had cast a demon out of a man. However, the scribes and Pharisees being alarmed that the people would think Jesus was the Messiah began to openly criticize Him saying He had cast the demon out by the power of Beelzebub meaning Satan. Jesus then rebuked them for their unbelief and blasphemy. Blasphemy is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil and that is what they did by
saying that Jesus casting out the demon was the work of Satan. They showed the hardness of their hearts by then sarcastically demanding that Jesus would give them a sign of who He was. They had just witnessed a sign in the casting out of the demon, but they would not accept it. Jesus them rebuked them by saying no sign would be given by the sign of the Jonah who was three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth." The phrase "heart of the earth" referred to dying and being buried. This passage is the key to understanding when Jesus was actually crucified.

Matthew 12:38-40:

38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."


The traditional explanation mistakenly says that Jesus was crucified on Friday. Trying to justify that Friday was the day of the crucifixion those that whole this view say that the Jews counted any part of a day as a full day. That is, part of Friday is day one; Saturday, day two; and if arose sometime Sunday morning - day three. This explanation has some serious problems.

It is true that the Jewish people did not reckon time the way we do. This is one of the first considerations.

1. The Jewish day ended at sundown and the new day began at sunrise.

2. Their Sabbath Day began at sundown Friday (about 6 p.m.) and ended at sundown Saturday. In Genesis 1:5 after the first day of creation, God said ". . . the evening and the morning were the first day." After the completion of each day of creation the Lord states the ". . . the evening and the morning were the ______day."

If Jesus was crucified on the traditional Friday and rose again anytime after 6 p.m. Saturday (the Jewish Sunday) He could not have been in the tomb ("heart of the earth") three full days and three full nights as He said He would be. Some might try to dismiss the importance of Jesus' statement, but He said it would be a sign to the Jews that He was the Messiah. If He was not actually in the grave three full days and three full nights there would be no way to authenticate the sign, so He had to be in the tomb the full time as He stated.

In the Jewish way of reckoning time, from Friday at 6 p.m. to Saturday as 6 p.m. would have only been twenty four hours if Jesus was buried before 6 p.m. From Saturday at 6 p.m. until Sunday morning at day break would have been a maximum of twelve hours. That gives a total of only thirty six hours, not the seventy two hours the
Bible records that He was in the grave. Jesus said He would be in the grave for seventy two hours and therefore He could not have been crucified on Friday.


Friday afternoon to Saturday 6 PM = 24 hours.

Saturday 6 PM to Sunday 6 AM = 12 hours.

Total 36 hours. (Not enough time)


WERE THESE THREE LITERAL DAYS/NIGHTS?

Some mistakenly refer to the passage where in John 11:9 Jesus asked, " . . . Are there not twelve hours in the day" to explain away the problem with the time. In creation God divided the day and night. The evening and the morning = 1 day. If there were twelve (12) hours in a day then there must have been twelve (hours) in a night and the total would be twenty four hours. Also, anytime in the Bible when the word "day" is preceded by a number, it means whatever number of days is denoted by that number. Day can also be used in the Bible to mean an unspecified period of days such as Day of the Lord.

Dr. Charles Halff, Director of the Christian Jew Foundation, in writing "The Fallacies of Easter" stated:

"Sometimes people ask, 'Didn't the Jews count part of a day as a whole day or part of a night as a whole night?' Let me say this, beloved. Whenever you have the _expression 'day and night' mentioned together in the Hebrew Scriptures, it always means a full day and a full night. . . For instance, if you will turn to Esther 4:16; 5:1; 1
Samuel; 30:12-13, and of course Jonah 1:17, you will find the _expression 'three days and three nights.' And in every instance it means full days and full nights - not part of a day and part of a night."


From Friday to Sunday is not three 24-hour days. Jesus said he would be resurrected after three (3) days. (Mark 8:31: "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." Counting backwards
from Sunday three days, you will not arrive at Friday. Remember to count the way the Jews did.


From Saturday 6 p.m. to Friday 6 p.m. = 1 day;

From Friday 6 p.m. to Thursday 6 p.m. = 1 day;

From Thursday 6 p.m. to Wednesday 6 p.m. = 1 day.

Total 3 days.


HOW COULD WEDNESDAY BE THE DAY BEFORE THE SABBATH?

But if He was crucified the day before the Sabbath, how could He have been crucified on Wednesday? The answer lies in the fact that the Jews celebrated more Sabbaths than just the weekly Sabbath. They had a number of feast days that were "High Sabbaths," or high days. He arose on the first day of the week after the Sabbaths* (plural). Sometime after 6 p.m. Saturday, end of the Jewish day, in Matthew 28:1 we read; "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."

The Scofield Reference Bible (1917 ed.) has a center column note which reveals that "Sabbath" in this verse is plural; from the Greek word "sabbata." (Also in Yough's Analytical Concordance) The day after the crucifixion was not the regular (Saturday) Sabbath but a Special ("High" - Greek, "megas", large) Sabbath.

John 19:31 states, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

The Jews observed several "high" Sabbaths ("holy convocations") in their seasons. Leviticus 23:3-6; "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread."

The first Jewish month (Nisan or Abib) is our April. The Feast of the Passover (a high sabbath) and the Feast of the Unleavened Bread (another high sabbath) were celebrated on April 14th and 15th respectively.

The day Jesus died was the preparation day (Wednesday) of the Passover celebration on Thursday (John 19:14, 31: "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he (meaning Pilate) saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" This was the morning of the crucifixion day. Verse 31 states, "The Jews therefore,
because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

Therefore, Passover was on Thursday, that year, the Feast of Unleavened Bread was on Friday, and the regular weekday Sabbath was on Saturday. Jesus was crucified in the morning on Wednesday and placed in the tomb before 6 P.M. He arose from the grave sometime after 6 P.M. on Saturday, which would be early Sunday morning, the first day of the week, according to Jewish time-keeping. This explanation fits Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 12:40 that He would be "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

A POINT OF CONJECTURE

If Jesus was born in 5 BC (The Bible Almanac, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1980) and if He died about at 33 years of age, that would fix his death around 29 AD. The first Roman calendar was off four (4) years. Today's calendar is a product of the Julian & Gregorian calendars. There was a 1 BC and a 1 AD but there was no "0"
between BC and AD. Counting 33 years forward from His birth in 5 BC would fix his death in 29 AD.

Herod the Great, who ordered the murder of all the babies less that two years old in Bethlehem, died in 4 BC. Therefore Jesus had to be born prior to his death and therefore Jesus probably was born in 5 BC or earlier. (Matt. 2:13-16)

Those special Sabbaths, Feast of the Passover and Feast of the Unleavened Bread, occurred on the 14th and 15th of the first month of the Jewish calendar (about our April). Leviticus 23:5, 6 states, "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread."

According to Encyclopedia Britannica the 14th day of Nisan ( also called Abar "green ears of corn") (Easter 3:7), corresponding to parts of March and April in the year of Christ's crucifixion was the same as our April 7 on our
calendar. ( Julian and Gregorian calendars) The Perpetual Calendar [also from Encyclopedia Britannica] shows that the 14th day of Nisan, 29 AD (Passover), fell on Thursday. Hence, it would be followed by the Feast of the Unleavened Bread on the 15th (Friday), and the regular weekday Sabbath (Saturday). Jesus would have therefore been crucified on Wednesday the 13th.

(Information sources were many, including commentaries of the late Evangelist Dr. Oliver B. Greene; Dakes's Annotated Reference Bible, and the article "Sabbaths All In A Row" by Maret H. Dinsmore, Litt. D., Th.D., in The Bibilcal Evangelist, Vol. 18, No. 8, April 13, 1984.)

Passover was on 14th day of the first month of the Jewish calendar, or Nisan (Abib) 14th no matter what day in the week it fell on as the following passages attest:
Exodus 23:15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)

Exodus 34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

Deuteronomy 16:1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.

Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Numbers 9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

Numbers 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.

Joshua 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.

2 Chronicles 35:1 Moreover Josiah kept a passover unto the LORD in Jerusalem: and they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month.

Phillip
03-28-2004, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
This confuses my simple monkey brain. If per Strong's definition, a part of a day is regarded as a whole day, and the Bible says Jesus died at what we call 3p.m. in our time, and which is considered a day in Eastern usage according to Strong......uhmm, let me see:

If a 24 hour period for the Jews is sundown to sundown, then Wednesday-Thursday is one day, one night; Thursday-Friday is one day, one night, and Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is one day, one night.

The Bible indicates many times that Jesus will rise on the third day, not a fraction before or a fraction after.

If He rose on Sunday morning, as you say He did, then He rose on the fourth day within the 24 hour period of Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown. Wednesday makes the Seventh day Adventists correct in worshipping on a Saturday, since they consider Saturday as the first day of the week.

I don't think you are an Adventist, per your profile, so please do a little simpler math for this poor ignorant brown monkey ?

Thank you. Let me see if I can explain this properly. I remember this so well because when I wasn't saved, I partied with a bunch of Israeli soldiers (boys and girls) on the beach of the Mediteranean and they started just as soon as the "first star appeared in the sky" which was the End of their Sabbath day.

This is how they would count days.

Day 1) Jesus was hung on the cross on Friday and was taken down before Sunset on THAT day so that he would not be left hanging on the Sabbath. This was considered a "day" that he was dead because if he was dead any part of that day they considered it a day.

Day 2) Started the Sabbath at sunset (or actually the visibility of the first star). That was day two Saturday. Day 2 ended that night when the first star appeared (Saturday night for us)-Sunday for them. This is the reason the Jewish soldiers could "party" because the Sabbath had ended when the first star rose Sat. Night.

Day 3) The third day from roughly 6-7 PM to early morning. How early in the morning? I'm not sure the hour, but it doesn't matter because half the day had passed when the "sun rose". (or should that be ....the "Son rose")

Anyway, they were partial days, but each day was considered a day even if Friday was actually the shortest period. He died THAT day, so at Sunset when the second day began he had technically been dead the day before (or dead one day).

Does that make any sense? :eek:

Watchman
03-28-2004, 01:59 AM
Jim Ward: Good work, you are exactly right.
While the Jews do indeed consider any part of the day a day, even they will tell you that this does not work within the context of what Jesus said. Three days and three nights can only mean just that. The Christian Jew Foundation, www.cjf.org (http://www.cjf.org,)
is a great source for information from those who are very well versed in Jewish customs and traditions.

Audra
03-28-2004, 11:27 PM
"No one disputes that Jesus arose on Sunday morning..."

Actually that's what Caissie is disputing. Taking into account that there were 2 Sabbaths that week, not just one, and not both on one day, Christ was crucified on Wednesday and died at 3pm - He was put in the grave before sunset on that same day. Then count, He rose on Saturday-3 days and 3 nights later-before sundown (before Sunday started).

Ben W
03-29-2004, 05:19 AM
That is the fact of the matter, go and see for yourself what a "High Sabbath" is. It is in fact an additional Sabbath during the week. The Friday that we know of as good Friday, was a High Sabbath. Still today there are High Sabbaths in Judaism.

Johnv
03-29-2004, 01:45 PM
Jesus rose from the dead, and paid the price for my sins. I think that, in the end, that's all that matters. At least for me.

Debby in Philly
03-29-2004, 04:42 PM
Amen, Johnv! graemlins/thumbs.gif

pinoybaptist
03-29-2004, 04:55 PM
No one disputes that Jesus arose on Sunday morning, but there is much debate as to what day He was crucified. Most of us were taught Friday was the day Jesus was crucified and this has been widely accepted as the traditional day of crucifixion. But if Christ was crucified on Friday, how was He in the grave for three days and
three nights as Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 He would be? Ole lamebrain here, ya'll. Ole Johnv there, he done said sumpin' which we'all agree. But, then, this lamebrain writin' ya'll did a word search for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, thru Sunday and didn't find them words in the whole Bible so I guess we are jis' left with the facts that Jesus stayed in 'at grave a full three days, and three nights 'cordin' to the Scriptures, and that's it. (Gavel slammed !!)

Audra
03-29-2004, 11:40 PM
Ben W:

Thursday was the High Day.

uhdum
03-31-2004, 12:37 AM
The dean of the theology department at my university gave us a paper showing how Jesus supposedly died on Thursday and how it falls in line with the killing of the passover on that same day (14th of Nissan). Wish I had an electronic copy... it certainly is an interesting proposal.

God bless!

uhdum
03-31-2004, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Johnv:
This is an old arguement. While not all that important, it's certainly worthy of discussion:

Taking the idea that Matthew 12:40 referrins to 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth and mandates three full 24 hour periods, then Jesus would have died on a Wednesday and rose on Saturday night. This view hinges on a literal reading of Matthew 12:40, but require a reinterpretation of the Sabbath day to be a reference to the Passover.

Taking the idea that Matthew 12:40 referrs to 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth and mandates at least a portion of a day and a portion of a night, then Jesus would have died on a Thursday. As before, this view hinges on a literal reading of Matthew 12:40, but require a reinterpretation of the Sabbath day to be a reference to the Passover.

Taking the idea in 1 Cor 15:4; Acts 10:40 that Jesus was raised on the third day, and taking into consideration that the Jews commonly spoke of 3 days and 3 nights as any portion thereof, then Jesus died on a Friday, and Jesus was taken down from the cross just prior to the Sabbath (Mt 27:42-43). This view is supported throughout the New Testament. Thank you for the clarification, John. As I read this thread, I did not realize we were dealing with two alternate views (Wednesday and Thursday) in addition to the Friday view. At first I thought we were only dealing with one. While I am still confused, this helps :D

God bless!

Alcott
03-31-2004, 11:51 PM
There is definitely a problem with literalism regardless of what day you think the crucifixion was on::

Matthew 16:21-- From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

Luke 9:22-- The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.

However...

Mark 8:31-- And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

So which is it? On the third day? or after 3 days? The one who said He must in the tomb unrisen for "72 hours" is in contradicition of "on the third day."

If both "on" and "after" mean the same thing in these passages-- and they must, unless at least one passage is wrong-- then any argument about this is silly, and He did not have to stay down 3 'full' days.

cotton
04-02-2004, 02:12 PM
Miss Caisie;
I am not supposed to post here so I beg forgiveness of the moderators in advance; the site you posted on how the Jews believe was from Jew for Judaism; They are notorious anti-missionaries against Messianic Jews! Don't believe for one second they are being honest with that article. You must be as shrewd as a serpent when looking at what they say! They will say and do ANYTHING to combat belief in Y'shua as Messiah!

I applaud the debate here, it has many good responses and questions. But there are some things about this argument that no one here has considered because the arguments are from a Jewish perspective.

Messianic Jewish believers reject many church traditions because we think they contradict biblical teaching, however just because the church teaches doesn't mean its NOT true!

I have researched this topic (hard) since '98. I have gone to Wednesday and back again. There are many reasons that a Friday (or late Thurs evening timeline) work much better than Wednesday.

Please feel free to delete this post; I know I shouldn't have posted here but this battle is severe in Jewish circles, and I hate to see others dragged into possible false doctrine.

Shalom alechim (Peace be unto you)
Cotton

wopik
04-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Jesus was a Quartodeciman (people who observe Passover on Nisan 14). So were all the Apostles. Quartodecimans were excommunicated from the "church". This whole tradition instituted by Jesus was virtually stamped out.

Messiah had to die in accordance with the law and the prophecies, to fulfil them. Paul said since Christ was our Passover, therefore we should KEEP the feast (1Cor. 5:7-8).

Jewish days start around sundown or nightfall. It was at this time that Jesus met with His Apostles in the upper room to eat the Lord's Supper and to share in the NT Passover symbols of His broken body and blood. "Now when the evening was come, He sat down with the twelve" (Matt. 26:20). "He [Judas Iscariot] having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night" (John 13:30).

Later that evening when Jesus was out walking and praying, He was betrayed: "...That the Lord Jesus the same night in which He was betrayed took bread......After the same manner also He took the cup....." (1Cor. 11:23-26).


"In the fourteenth day of the first month at evening is the LORD's Passover" (Lev. 23:5). Jesus died late afternoon on the 14th, and His body had to be quickly taken down because the annual Sabbath of First Day of Unleavened Bread was on the 15th (Lev. 23:6-8).

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p277.html

wopik
04-09-2004, 01:07 AM
"How did Easter really happen"

http://www.vision.org/trdl/2001/trdl010420.html

do a google search on some words:

quartodeciman, polycarp, synod of whitby, polycrates


------------------------------------------
God Bless everyone everyday

wopik
04-09-2004, 01:50 AM
"No one disputes that Jesus arose on Sunday morning..."

"The first day of the week comes Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre....." (Jn 20:1).

Jesus was gone before sunrise.

----------------------------
uhdum -- http://www.cemnetwork.com --- their "online audio" has two good tapes about the death of Jesus. You might have to register, but it's free.

Alcott
04-09-2004, 03:04 AM
Paul said since Christ was our Passover, therefore we should KEEP the feast (1Cor. 5:7-8).

Galatians 4:9-11-- But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Now, disregarding all your cult junk, answer this previously posed question about when the resurrection took place: "So which is it? On the third day (Matthew 16:21)? or after 3 days (Mark 8:31)?"

Gershom
04-09-2004, 10:53 AM
This is an old arguement. While not all that important, it's certainly worthy of discussionIt is highly important, else Jesus wouldn't have prophecied concerning it. It's fulfilment is enormously important because if what was spoken does not add up (come to pass), in this case the 3 days and 3 nights prophecy, then Jesus would be considered a false prophet (and has in fact been accused of this at least by some orthodox Jews that I have conversed with when they attempt to do the math from a Friday crucifixion).

It is a doctrine that most people, including unbelievers, have all heard of. It's out there. We need to be sure, so that when the mockers come along, we can put them to silence.

wopik
04-09-2004, 11:15 AM
uhdum --

The dean of the theology department at my university gave us a paper showing how Jesus supposedly died on Thursday and how it falls in line with the killing of the passover on that same day (14th of Nissan).

I always thought Nisan 14 was a Wednesday.

Nisan 14-Jesus died (late Wed. afternoon)
Nisan 15-Pesach "high day" Sabbath
Nisan 16-Women buy and prepare burial spices
Nisan 17-Women rest on weekly Sat. Sabbath (resurrection late afternoon - 3days & 3nights later)
Nisan 18-Women go to the tomb Sunday (while it was yet dark / at sunrise) and find it empty.

"so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12:40).

=========

Also, here's a scenario that might work ---

"...and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done" (Lk. 24:21). "These things were done" included the sealing of the sepulchre and setting a watch at the tomb -- ordered by Pilate, a day after the crucifixion (Matt. 27: 62-66).

Sunday was the third day from Thursday, making a late Wednesday crucifixion possible.

http://www.centuryone.com/crucifixion.html

wopik
04-09-2004, 09:12 PM
uhdum -- (if you're still there)

The dean of the theology department at my university gave us a paper showing how Jesus supposedly died on Thursday and how it falls in line with the killing of the passover on that same day (14th of Nissan).


regardless which day of the week Nisan 14 fell on, your professor is correct. Jesus did die on Nisan 14; earlier that day (around midnight,perhaps) Jesus was betrayed in the garden by Judas; and still earlier that day(NIGHT), Jesus and His Apostles took the bread and wine: the symbols of the New Testament Passover - "for this is my blood of the NT".


Decades and centuries later, the Christians who were still keeping Nisan 14 as a remembrance of the Lord's DEATH (1Cor. 11:23-26) were labeled Quartodecimans, and their practice was looked down upon and virtually stamped out.

Origen regarded them as a "mere handful of wrong-headed nonconformists" -- quote is at the end of the first large paragraph - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05228a.htm.

Perhaps Origen forgot what the Lord said about His followers - "Fear not, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give YOU the kingdom" (Luke 12:32).

wopik
04-11-2004, 11:39 PM
Even Jesus recognized the distinction between DAYS and NIGHTS. "...Verily I say unto you, That this DAY, even in this NIGHT, before the cock crows twice, you shall deny me thrice" (Mk. 14:30).

Jesus again recognizes the difference between NIGHT and DAY (Jn 11:9-10).

wopik
04-12-2004, 01:50 PM
Alcott --

Paul said since Christ was our Passover, therefore we should KEEP the feast (1Cor. 5:7-8).


Galatians 4:9-11-- But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Gal. 4:8-10 -- "Howbeit then, when you knew not God.......but NOW you know God....so why do you want to TURN BACK to the weak and beggarly elements....."


Paul is talking to Gentile Pagans who NEVER KNEW GOD. These were NOT Jews. The Jews knew God; they might not have obeyed Him perfectly -- but they knew who He was -- they knew the true God.

In theses verses in Galatians, Paul is talking to Gentile converts who -- in time past -- never knew the true God. And Paul is telling them not to TURN BACK AGAIN to their old pagan ways.

Alcott
04-13-2004, 09:49 PM
In Colossians 2:16 Paul tells the 'Gentile converts' to let no one be their judge in regard to feast, new moons, or sabbaths-- things of Jewish tradition-- which are only "shadows" of the substance of Christ.

Now, are you going to continue to be a coward to answer the question?:
When was the resurrection?- on the third day (Matthew 16:21)? or after 3 days (Mark 8:31)?

wopik
04-14-2004, 04:51 AM
Alcott,

in Colossians 2:16, Paul is telling these Christian not to let others criticize or judge them FOR eating or drinking, or For keeping new moons, holy days, and Sabbaths. This is rock-solid evidence that these Colossians were keeping the biblical holidays and Sabbaths.

If the holy days are done away with, so is "eating and drinking", for they are listed there too.

-------------
I don't much like preposition, although I am a grammar freak.

The resurrection was late Saturday afternoon, 72 hours after His death on late Wed. afternoon.

Alcott
04-14-2004, 06:20 PM
Bud, Paul said to let no one be your judge in regard to the things listed. If there is any "rock solid" evidence that the Colossians burdened themselves with the ceremonial law, disregarding the apostles' resolution in Acts 15, then show it. Your word ain't worth sawdust.

If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and rose on Saturday 72 hours later, that is on the 4th day, contrary to Matthew 16:21.

TC
04-14-2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Alcott:
If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and rose on Saturday 72 hours later, that is on the 4th day, contrary to Matthew 16:21. Wed. to Thurs. = 1 day
Thurs. to Fri. = 1 day
Fri. to Sat. = 1 day

1 + 1 + 1 = 3 days

Since the day and exact time jesus was put in the tomb was not listed other than just before the sabbath started, we don't know for sure. Tradition says Friday burial and Sunday resurrection. Evidence points strongly to the possibility of two sabbaths that week - the passover and the regular weekly sabbath. Personally, I think a Wednesday or Thursday burial is a real possibility.

wopik
04-14-2004, 08:14 PM
If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and rose on Saturday 72 hours later, that is on the 4th day, contrary to Matthew 16:21.

Wed afternoon - Thurs. afternoon = 24 hours
Thur - Fri. = 24 hours
Fri. - Sat. afternoon = 24 hours

24 x 3 =72, 3 days and 3 nights

Jesus was already gone when Mary Magdalene got to His tomb, early when it was still dark (Jn 20:1). That's because He arose late Saturday afternoon.

wopik
04-14-2004, 08:18 PM
Evidence points strongly to the possibility of two sabbaths that week...

There are always two sabbaths that week. Nisan 15 is an annual sabbath. And unless it falls on the same day as the weekly sabbath, there are always two sabbaths that week.

Of course your average sunday school going christian is never going to know this, or be told this by his preacher. We're told to start reading the Bible at Matthew. WONDER WHY ????

Alcott
04-14-2004, 08:55 PM
"Wed afternoon - Thurs. afternoon = 24 hours
Thur - Fri. = 24 hours
Fri. - Sat. afternoon = 24 hours

24 x 3 =72, 3 days and 3 nights"

In that case, it was after 3 days, but not on the third day, as Mark 8:31 states.

As to whether a day must be exactly 24 hours, this is disproved by Leviticus 23:32, in which the Israelites are commanded to keep the sabbath from sun 'evening until evening', which varies from one day to the next and thus is not exactly 24 hours.

wopik
04-15-2004, 12:18 PM
....varies from one day to the next and thus is not exactly 24 hours.

you take that up with Jesus:

"are there not twelve hours in the DAY? (John 11:9-10).

"those who walk during the DAY don't stumble, because they see the light of this world".

"But those who walk at NIGHT stumble...."

Alcott
04-15-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by wopik:
....varies from one day to the next and thus is not exactly 24 hours.

you take that up with Jesus:You don't appear to know that dividing a day [day + night] into 24 hours is entirely arbitrary. But the fact remains that in commanding a people to see day as "evening to evening" is commanding to see a day as not exactly 24 hours. At my latitude [33 degrees north] today's "sunset" is 7:57 p.m.; tomorrow's will be 7:58 p.m. This will continue until June 22 when sunset will be 8:39 p.m. Are you so dumb you can't see that 'evening to evening' is not exactly 24 hours?

"are there not twelve hours in the DAY? (John 11:9-10).

Yes, in fact very close to twice that many.

"those who walk during the DAY don't stumble, because they see the light of this world".

"But those who walk at NIGHT stumble...."

OK then, don't sit in your living room after sundown, or you will stumble on the way to your bedroom, right?