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west
06-11-2005, 04:06 PM
We read this Creed at times at church .Every time after the reading my Pastor says that the word Holy Catholic Church means the church universal not the Roman Catholic Church .I read about how that Creed was changed up to the 8th century words added and some taken away . I think the Catholic church influenced its writing .Why did;n t the writers say the Body of Christ or the Church period .Anyone ever hear anything about this ?Thank you .PS. I like the Creed .

Brandon C. Jones
06-11-2005, 04:27 PM
Hi West,

I believe that the most reasonable answer to your question is that the creed itself supposedly countered gnostic teaching. Perhaps, the creed writers included "catholic" (universal) to distinguish their beliefs regarding the church from the gnostic teaching that church doctrines were for a few, but not everyone.

There is no way to tell for sure if "catholic" indeed was original (you're right the most common verson of the creed today is from the 8th century). There's also no way to know for sure what the motives were behind the creed writers for including "catholic" if it is indeed part of the original creed. My suggestion above is merely speculation since most any historical creed is in response to a heresy, and one should keep in mind what the creed is in response to when trying to determine motives behind its wording.

BJ

P.S. I like the creed too (except the whole "descent into Hades" part is, IMO, a more interesting feature of the creed).

johnp.
06-11-2005, 05:12 PM
Hello there.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints...

It's a good point and I just went along with the notion that 'catholic' meant universal but I see that the Church would be mentioned twice once after the other ...the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints... Since the communion of the saints is the Church?

john.

Ben W
06-12-2005, 04:43 AM
catholic does mean universal, if it had a captial "C" as in "Catholic" that would be a different matter.

I Am Blessed 24
06-12-2005, 08:49 AM
catholic: Including or concerning all humankind

Catholic: Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church

rsr
06-12-2005, 04:43 PM
"Catholic" was not in the original creed, which may date as far back as the end of the second century.

The Old Roman Creed, in its form circa 340:

"I Believe in God almighty
And in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord
Who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried
And the third day rose from the dead
Who ascended into heaven
And sitteth on the right hand of the Father
Whence he cometh to judge the living and the dead.
And in the Holy Spirit
The holy church
The remission of sins
The resurrection of the flesh
The life everlasting."

The "catholic" reference had been added by the Gallican version of the mid sixth century and is generally believed not necessarily to be a reference to the Latin Rite church, but is, as Brandon said, a refutation of gnosticism. As James Kiefer said:

"The Gnostics believed that the most important Christian doctrines were reserved for a select few. The orthodox belief was that the fullness of the Gospel was to be preached to the entire human race. Hence the term 'catholic,' or universal, which distinguished them from the Gnostics."

Jeffrey H
06-14-2005, 10:01 AM
We read this Creed at times at church . That's good! It's a timeless ancient creed that states the essentials of our faith originating from the Bible. Baptists in my area tend to avoid it considering it too "formal" or "catholic" to use in worship.

I agree with the others. Catholic means "universal" and is not in reference to Roman church.

Bro. James
06-14-2005, 10:40 AM
Creeds--are of men, regardless of age and time.

"Sanctify them in Thy Truth, thy Word is Truth", should be sufficient. Most folks seem to want to follow the commandments of men. That is why most of us are in a "ditch"--blind leading blind.

Selah,

Bro. James

Jeffrey H
06-14-2005, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Bro. James:
Creeds--are of men, regardless of age and time.

"Sanctify them in Thy Truth, thy Word is Truth", should be sufficient. Most folks seem to want to follow the commandments of men. That is why most of us are in a "ditch"--blind leading blind.

Selah,

Bro. James A typical "Baptist" response. The Apostle's Creed is not Scripture, but it does indeed express the truth of Scripture in summary form.

"Sanctify them in Thy Truth, thy Word is Truth" is a great verse, but a Jehovah's Witness could use the same verse to support their heretical doctrines.

Baptists will often declare, "The Bible is my only Creed". That is a good statement but it is insufficient because it does not express what you believe about it.

Bro. James
06-15-2005, 08:11 AM
Creeds--again, are of men. The Truth is of God.

Hide The Word in the heart, not the Creed.

Creeds are in the same category as beads, Hail Marys, crucifixes and other satanic/human diversions from the plain truth of the Word of God.

Want to "rote" something? "Rote" The Word.

Then let the Holy Spirit bear witness.

No, this is not typical "Baptist".

Selah,

Bro. James

jdcanady
06-15-2005, 12:55 PM
Bro. James

I think you are a little harsh on creeds, putting them in the category of beads, Hail Marys, etc. Creeds are useful, but not infallable. They summarize important elements of the Truth. They can and should be modified as the Spirit illumines our minds with the Truth of God's Word.

Bro. James
06-15-2005, 03:12 PM
Useful for what? An adjunct to "Thus saith The Lord"?

The so-called Apostle's Creed has a lot of the marks of the "holy see".

What fellowship has the Temple of God with Belial?

Selah,

Bro. James

johnp.
06-15-2005, 03:30 PM
This creed thing is dead interesting.

Is a Church statement of faith the same as a creed?

I don't think Bro.James is too harsh. I have no trust in man made things.

john.

Debby in Philly
06-15-2005, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by johnp.:
Is a Church statement of faith the same as a creed? Good point. It is the "thing" now to have a "Statement of Faith" as well as a "Mission Statement."

But shouldn't we all subscribe to the Creed, the Baptist distinctives, and the Great Commission?

GulliverBarb
06-15-2005, 04:00 PM
Here is scripture reference for the Apostles Creed. I don't understand how any christian can have a problem with this.

•1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. [Eph.4:6; 1 Cor.8:6; Ps.86:10; 145;3; Rev.1:8; Heb.11:3; Gen.1:1-3; Neh.9:6; Ac.17:24-26]
•2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. [2 Pet.1:16-18; Jn.10:30,36-38; Col.1:15,17-19; 2:3,9; 1 Cor.8:6]
•3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. [Mt.1:18-25; Lk.2:8-11]
•4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. [Lk.23:13-25,32-34,44-46; 1 Cor.15:3-4; Isa.53:4-8]
•5. He descended to the dead. [Mt.12:38-40; Ac.2:22-28; 1 Pet.3:18-19]
•6. On the third day He rose again. [Mt.27:62-66; 28:1-9; Lk.24:44-47; Rom.1:2-4; 1 Cor.15:12-14,19-20]
•7. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. [Jn.20:17; Lk.24:49-51; Heb.1:1-3; 9:24; 10:12-13; 12:2]
•8. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. [Ac.1:10-11; Mt.24:27,36; 25:31-34,41,46; Jn.14:1.3; 1 Thes.4:15-18; 2 Pet.3:10-13]
•9. I believe in the Holy Spirit [Jn.16:7-15; Ac.1:8-9; 1 Cor.6:19-20; Gal.5:22-23,25; Eph.4:30-32],
•10. the Universal Church [Eph.1:22-23; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.2:18-22; 1 Cor.12:13-14,27],
•11. the communion of saints [Ac.2:42-47; 1 Cor.10:16-17; 1 Jn.1:5-7; Gal.6:2,10],
•12. the forgiveness of sins [Mt.26:26-28; 1 Jn.4:9-10; Rom.5:6-10; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-2],
•13. the resurrection of the body [Jn.6:39-40,44; 5:28-29; 1 Cor.15:23,42-44,50-54; Phil.3:20-21],
•14. and the life everlasting [Jn.11:25; 3:14-16; 1 Jn.5:11-13; Jn.10:10; 1 Pet.1:3-5; Rev.21:1,3-4]. Amen.

Bro. James
06-15-2005, 04:01 PM
Salutations, johnp,

Hope you are having a blessed day.

Excellent question, Brother.

There are written statements of "Things Believed Among Us". These seem to be making a statement to the outside world in terms of doctrinal differences. However, the scripture says we are known by our fruits, not by what we say we believe.

There is a document called a "Church Covenant" which is an internal document stating the purpose of the assembly and the circumspectness of the members. There is nothing particularly "binding" about the document. It is a good outline for a "membership" class. So is I and II Corinthians. Perhaps this document(church covenant) is one of those "Baptist Barnacles Without Biblical Basis".

Then there are the creeds. There is something subtly deceptive about the origin of these documents. They are shrouded in the smoke screen of the "holy see". Better it is to stay clear of such things.

Why not go for the unadulterated?

There are enough things in the scripture to keep one busy for a lifetime. Why clutter The Truth with man's depraved efforts to define God?

Beware the wolves dressed as sheep.

Selah,

Bro. James

Jeffrey H
06-15-2005, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Bro. James:


Creeds are in the same category as beads, Hail Marys, crucifixes and other satanic/human diversions from the plain truth of the Word of God.

On Sunday, we sang the hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy”. This hymn is essentially a creed and we are reciting the creed as we sing it; the only difference is its set to music. Would that be in the same category as “beads” and “Hail Mary’s”?

Baptists recite creeds every Sunday; we call them hymns and songs. That being said, it’s very important that the songs we sing are supported and validated by the Holy Bible.

GulliverBarb
06-15-2005, 06:26 PM
Amen Jeffrey!
That is an excellent point.

Bro. James
06-15-2005, 06:53 PM
The problem is:

When you ask someone who espouses the "Apostles' Creed" "have you been born again?", you get answers like: Well, I am Catholic; or, I have been baptized; or, I am a member of "thus and such"; or, I have been a Christian all my life; or, I was born a Christian; or, I am not sure--cannot know until the end; these are just a few. Jesus told Nicodemus: "You must be born again". John Ch. 3.

Another creed of sorts: "Hail, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women; blessed is the fruit of thy womb--Jesus. Holy, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.(This is a paraphrase of scripture + mariolatry.) I learned these words when I was 5--I still have them etched in memory--55 years later. The Lord has led from darkness unto His glorious Light in the meanwhile.

Repeat the Hail Marys __ times to invoke the powers from on high; to receive indulgence for sin; to reduce purgatory time for yourself and your loved ones. If that does not work, go visit Lourdes or Majorgoria(sic).

Beware. Satan himself is become an angel of light.

Selah,

Bro. James

GulliverBarb
06-15-2005, 07:05 PM
Those responses can also be heard from those spouting the "Roman's Road" also...

I see the "Hail Mary" is a whole different matter. I do not relate it as a creed at all.

Bro. James
06-15-2005, 07:18 PM
The Roman Road--leads to easy believism; repeat after me; say this prayer, now you are saved. Churches are filled with the fruits of hyper-evangelism: carnal Christians. What that amounts to is blind leading blind--all in the ditch.

"Noone comes to The Father unless The Spirit draws him."

Selah,

Bro. James

Magnetic Poles
06-15-2005, 08:17 PM
The so-called "Roman Road" uses pulling verses out of their context, stringing them together, and coming up with an answer. Other verses could be used in this manner to gain a totally different spin.

jdcanady
06-15-2005, 10:54 PM
Bro. James

You said,
"However, the scripture says we are known by our fruits, not by what we say we believe."

Scripture also says what we believe is essential. Creeds are "useful" in that the church summarizes what is taught in scripture. I would never suggest creeds should be used instead of scripture, but creeds can keep every new generation from fighting the same old heresies/having the same old debates, that have already been carefully studied and refuted.

They should be carefully reviewed, and are certainly not infallible, but again, they are useful.

Jeffrey H
06-16-2005, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Bro. James:
The problem is:

When you ask someone who espouses the "Apostles' Creed" "have you been born again?", you get answers like: Well, I am Catholic; or, I have been baptized; or, I am a member of "thus and such"; or, I have been a Christian all my life; or, I was born a Christian; or, I am not sure--cannot know until the end; these are just a few. Jesus told Nicodemus: "You must be born again". John Ch. 3.

Another creed of sorts: "Hail, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women; blessed is the fruit of thy womb--Jesus. Holy, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.(This is a paraphrase of scripture + mariolatry.) I learned these words when I was 5--I still have them etched in memory--55 years later. The Lord has led from darkness unto His glorious Light in the meanwhile.

Repeat the Hail Marys __ times to invoke the powers from on high; to receive indulgence for sin; to reduce purgatory time for yourself and your loved ones. If that does not work, go visit Lourdes or Majorgoria(sic).

Beware. Satan himself is become an angel of light.

Selah,

Bro. James James,

I'm not talking about Roman Catholic Church, but simply debating the merits of the Apostle's Creed. I affirm the Apostle's Creed as a true statement of faith and I'm not Roman Catholic and never have been.

I'm glad that God has delivered you away from the errors and heresies of the Roman Church. May God be praised! The errors of the Roman Church is another topic that I will not debate here.

--Jeff

johnp.
06-16-2005, 09:24 PM
Hello Jeffrey.
I affirm the Apostle's Creed as a true statement of faith and I'm not Roman Catholic and never have been.Hello GulliverBarb I'll use the creed from your post if you don't mind. :cool:
I don't understand how any christian can have a problem with this.I shall explain why I don't like this particular creed apart from the indoctrination thing.

There is a doctrine that says that Jesus, after He died, actually visited those suffering the torments of Hell, those who died in sin before Christ came and gave them a second chance. :cool:
I don't accept that scripture is saying this.

•5. He descended to the dead. [Mt.12:38-40; Ac.2:22-28; 1 Pet.3:18-19]

I believe He died and was buried and He sat beside His Father for three days before raising Himself in the flesh that was Him.
I don't know if you believe as I do or as that other doctrine does.

•10. the Universal Church [Eph.1:22-23; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.2:18-22; 1 Cor.12:13-14,27],
•11. the communion of saints [Ac.2:42-47; 1 Cor.10:16-17; 1 Jn.1:5-7; Gal.6:2,10],

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints...
But without the comma it reads, the holy catholic church the communion of saints... Emphasising the holy catholic church is the communion of saints. But it is 10 and 11 not just ten so how is the Universal Church different from the communion of the saints? What is meant by the communion of the saints? If they are the same why have they two different proofs and numbers?

I also make note that 'catholic' has become 'Universal'. Which is it? A capital or a lower case?

I get back to the songs I have to go to bed. See yer tomorrow God willing. :cool: .

john.

GulliverBarb
06-16-2005, 11:49 PM
Hello John,
In answer to your question.... "But it is 10 and 11 not just ten so how is the Universal Church different from the communion of the saints? What is meant by the communion of the saints? If they are the same why have they two different proofs and numbers?"

My interpretation of Universal Church is all evanglical churches. I went to catholic school and have aunts that are catholic nuns and it was always made very clear that catholic in the apostles creed ment "universal". Nothing else. I am a born again christian and can see many of the misconceptions people make that do not know the Catholic faith. The pedulium swings both ways and misconceptions are also made of the Baptist faith.

Communion of saints in my opinion is just that... communion (the eating of bread and wine that is done in rememberence to what Jesus did for us. People of "faith" being the saints.)

David Ekstrom
06-19-2005, 11:27 PM
Philip Schaff has an excellent three-volume set entitled, "Creeds of Christendom." In the first volume, Schaff talks about the role of creeds in comparison to the Scripture. Both Scripture and creeds serve as standards for our faith but in different ways. The Bible declares, "thus saith the Lord." The creeds respond, "I believe." In other words, the creeds are our response to God's revelation.
Another comparison is that the Bible is a standardizing standard while the creed is a standardized standard. The Bible is like the official yardstack made by the bureau of weights and measures. The creeds are yardsticks sold in your local hardware store. They are made to reflect the official yardstick.
By the way, Schaff was a committed Evangelical who makes strong criticisms of Rome.

David Ekstrom
06-19-2005, 11:32 PM
May I point out that some who were converted from the Roman church have an axe to grind. Not that I blame them. I'm sure I'd feel the same way. Their passion for the Gospel and their hatred of its perversion is a great thing. But sometimes they become reactionary. Instead of evaluating things on their merits, they evaluate them based on whether or not they feel they are associated with Rome. Might this explain the opposition to solid, Christ-honoring creeds from otherwise Bible-believing Christians?

Bro. James
06-20-2005, 07:42 AM
"In vain ye do worship, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Shall we analyze the existence and use of creeds using the above scripture as a paradigm?

Why is there no reference to: Salvation by grace through faith, not of one's self, but a gift from God? Eph. 2:8-10.

Selah,

Bro. James

HankD
06-20-2005, 10:03 AM
According to the dictionary a creed is a set of fundamental beliefs.

By that definition the Baptist distinctives comprise a creed.

Or how about the following, is it a "creed"?:

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

Although one may claim and offer Scriptures as proof of these beliefs, none of these five word phrases can be found in the Scriptures except "perseverance of the saints" which can be found together in one verse (Ephesians 6:18).

For instance the two words "limited atonement" do not exist together in the Scriptures yet many believe the concept of these two words with absolute conviction.

Such is the essence of creeds.

HankD

Kiffen
06-20-2005, 10:11 AM
Well said HankD! Creeds are simply stating what we believe. No one believes they are above Scripture.

Bro. James
06-20-2005, 11:25 PM
TULIP is an acronym to help teach/preach the doctrines of Grace.

The Apostles Creed was birthed in the "holy see".
We were "brainwashed" in Catholic School to memorize the Creed and to pray it often to "gain points" to be used in dealing with purgatory.

I have since found out that only Jesus can pay the price--and there "ain't no" purgatory--there is glory and the pit.

There is not even an inference to the "Grace of God" in this "creed"--which is consistent with salvation by works--which is what the "holy see" is about--also most of the "separated brethren"(reformed and re-reformed as it were) believe in salvation by works. They are happy with the creed too.

I prefer to leave the creeds and the catechisms in the cathedrals--so they can melt with fervent heat--God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Selah,

Bro. James

Gold Dragon
06-20-2005, 11:47 PM
Some Baptist creeds (http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/hbd.htm)

HankD
06-21-2005, 09:11 AM
TULIP is an acronym to help teach/preach the doctrines of Grace.OK, but is is still a list of statements or a "confession" comprised of phrases not found in the Scripture, of which statements many Christians would say promote error.


HankD

David Ekstrom
06-21-2005, 11:27 PM
I think we concede too much to Rome when we consign everything before the Reformation to the Roman Church. Before the Council of Trent, there was no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church as far as I'm concerned. Unwittingly, many anti-Romanist argue Rome's points for them.
For example, the Roman pontiff and cardinals refer to themselves as the Church. Even the media sometimes refer to the Roman intelligensia as The Church. The Church of Christ is not one man, or even a small council of men. The true catholic church is the Body of Christ, not a political organization.