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OldRegular
03-15-2005, 12:30 AM
How are people saved during the so-called earthly millennial kingdom? Scripture tells us that we are now saved by grace through faith [Ephesians 2:8]. Yet in the millennial kingdom Jesus Christ is supposedly sitting on David's throne, ruling with a rod of iron.

It seems to me that there is no need for faith, in fact there will be no such thing as faith. I don't need faith to understand that Bush is president of the United States [unless I am a democrat]. Everyone will be able to see the King and know who He is what with TV and all that.

The Apostle Paul has told us that by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight [Romans 3:20] which presumably included the Old Testament Saints also. Even though Jesus Christ is ruling with a rod of iron no one can be good enough to merit salvation.

So tell me, how are people saved in the earthly millennial kingdom?

Ed Edwards
03-15-2005, 12:37 AM
Rom 10:9 (KJV1611):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.

But there will be church age saints with
glorified bodies on the earth teaching,
and judging. The Lord himself will be on
the earth. Many shall be saved.

DeafPosttrib
03-15-2005, 08:15 AM
Ed,

Romans 10:9 is apply to this present age. This verse is for any individual either Jew or Gentile, whosoever shall confess with mouth and heart believe that God hath raised Christ from the death, shall be saved. This is the promise for everyone.

You do really need a solid clear verse to prove that people shall be saved during in the next age beyond Christ's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Ed Edwards
03-15-2005, 08:42 AM
tee hee. DeafPosttrib is a dispensational a-mill. I guess God can do anything smile.gif

DeafPosttrib
03-15-2005, 09:02 AM
I am not a dispensational amil. I simple believe the Bible teaches that the kingdom is an eternality without end instead to called myself, "amill".

Dispensation find in N.T. four times. It means stewardship, duty, responsiblity. It never meaning of different plans, different times.

Word, 'dispensation' was actually translated in Greek means 'stewardship'.

Ed, please stop playing with me.

You know better Romans 10:9 always apply to everyone either Jew of Gentile for salvation throughout all ages from the Calvary to the end of the age.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

blackbird
03-15-2005, 09:04 AM
Now---Eddy---we both know that DPT would make an excellent Pre-mil----see??? Here's my reasoning---if I were taking a airline flight---wouldn't it be a whole lot more enjoyable flight if I were up front close to the Pilot---rather than having to be hanging on to the tailend of the plane????? I mean, at 35,000 feet in the air---crusin' at a speed of 550 mph----I'm up front with the Pilot--cabin pressurized and temp controled at 72 cool degrees!!! DPT---he's on the same flight---but he's outside hangin' on to the tail for dear life---unpressurized---and enjoyin' a cool -100 degree weather!!! Both of us are gonna get there---my trip is more enjoyable-------see????------One of these days---DPT will be known as DPT!!!!! The Post changes to Pre!!!!

The question is not CAN folks be saved during Jacob's Trouble---the question is WILL they be saved----factoring in the "strong delusion" being sent by God in that terrible age to come---and factoring in the truth that folks will in that age---literally "believe the lie"---thus the father of that lie!!!!

But all in all----We love and appreciate DPT!!! graemlins/thumbs.gif

Your Southern Baptist buddy,
Blackbird

OldRegular
03-15-2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Rom 10:9 (KJV1611):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.

But there will be church age saints with
glorified bodies on the earth teaching,
and judging. The Lord himself will be on
the earth. Many shall be saved. Ed Edwards, my question is where is faith required? It is required for you and I. Are you telling me that folks during the earthly millennial reign are justified without faith?

OldRegular
03-15-2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by blackbird:
Now---Eddy---we both know that DPT would make an excellent Pre-mil----see??? Here's my reasoning---if I were taking a airline flight---wouldn't it be a whole lot more enjoyable flight if I were up front close to the Pilot---rather than having to be hanging on to the tailend of the plane????? I mean, at 35,000 feet in the air---crusin' at a speed of 550 mph----I'm up front with the Pilot--cabin pressurized and temp controled at 72 cool degrees!!! DPT---he's on the same flight---but he's outside hangin' on to the tail for dear life---unpressurized---and enjoyin' a cool -100 degree weather!!! Both of us are gonna get there---my trip is more enjoyable-------see????------One of these days---DPT will be known as DPT!!!!! The Post changes to Pre!!!!

The question is not CAN folks be saved during Jacob's Trouble---the question is WILL they be saved----factoring in the "strong delusion" being sent by God in that terrible age to come---and factoring in the truth that folks will in that age---literally "believe the lie"---thus the father of that lie!!!!

But all in all----We love and appreciate DPT!!! graemlins/thumbs.gif

Your Southern Baptist buddy,
Blackbird Just answer the question Blackbird, if you can. EE tried and failed.

OldRegular
03-15-2005, 11:24 AM
By the way Blackbird if you read a little Southern Baptist history you will see there were no pretribbers amongst Southern Baptists until the Scofield reference book came along.

icthus
03-15-2005, 04:02 PM
According to Scripture, no one will be saved after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

"so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation" (Hebrews 9:28)

To assume that there will be "people saved during the so-called earthly millennial kingdom", is wishful thinking!

OldRegular
03-15-2005, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by icthus:
According to Scripture, no one will be saved after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

"so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation" (Hebrews 9:28)

To assume that there will be "people saved during the so-called earthly millennial kingdom", is wishful thinking! Thanks! I used that Scripture somewhere else today. I really don't believe in a so-called earthly millennial kingdom, just trying to find out what those who do believe.

DeafPosttrib
03-15-2005, 06:19 PM
Matt. 25:1-13 telling us of the parable of ten virgins. Five wise virgins with oil, mean they are ready. Five fool virgins without oil, mean they are not ready. When their bridgegroom comes after midnight, the trumpet sounds, all virgins wake up, and the five virgins are ready to go, as they light the lamp on. The five fool virgins ask five wise virgins need oil. Wise virgins tell them, they have not enough oil left, they have go and sell and get more. Then, five wise virgins ahead on the way to bridgegroom's room with their lamp. Then, the door shut. The five fool virgins ran to the door, and knock beg to open and enter. The bridgegroom tells them, He do NOT know them.

This parable shows us, it is the picture of Christ's coming, when Christ once comes, then there will be too late for people not yet repent and not ready, will be grab away as thief in the night cast into the fire.

Same with flood. Noah preached and warning to people, the flood will come and destroy world. People do not believe Noah's warning. When after 120 years past. Rain poured, and I am sure people ran to the Ark, and knocked begging to enter into. But it was too late for them. All of them were killed.

Christ tells us of Matt. 24:37-41, flood came and took them all away, same with at Christ's coming, when Christ comes, shall take all unbelievers away at once.

Clearly, Bible teaches us, there was no one survived after the flood past. All unbelievers were killed. This lesson teaches us, there will be no unbeliever left remain beyond Christ's coming by follow the great white throne.

It is unbiblical that there will be another chance for a person to be saved beyind Christ's coming. Because this age will come to passed, then the next age will be eternality.

Also, Matt. 25:46 tells us, all goats(unbelievers) shall be cast into the lake of fire for everlasting punishment at once.

And verse 46 says, sheep(believers) shall go into EVERLASTING life.

Obivous, all believers shall have glorify new body and being immortality and be with the Lord for forever and ever.....

So, there is no evidence find in the Bible saying that there will be salvation beyond Christ's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

OldRegular
03-15-2005, 06:34 PM
Good post DPT! graemlins/thumbs.gif

Ed Edwards
03-15-2005, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by OldRegular:
By the way Blackbird if you read a little Southern Baptist history you will see there were no pretribbers amongst Southern Baptists until the Scofield reference book came along. We will gladly look at your evidence.

Ed Edwards
03-15-2005, 11:19 PM
DeafPosttrib: "This lesson teaches us, there will be no unbeliever left remain beyond Christ's coming by follow the great white throne. "

The Lord already had me write up the proof
otherwise:

-------------------------------------------


Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

------------------------------------------

OldRegular
03-15-2005, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
By the way Blackbird if you read a little Southern Baptist history you will see there were no pretribbers amongst Southern Baptists until the Scofield reference book came along. We will gladly look at your evidence. </font>[/QUOTE]You could start with

1. By His Grace and For His Glory by Thomas J. Nettles

2. Abstract of Systematic Theology by James P. Boyce, pay particular attention to the Abstract of Principles of the Southern Seminary, Articles 19 and 20.

3. Manual of Theology by J. R. Dagg

4. Baptist Confessions of Faith by William L. Lumpkin

I won't hold my breath.

OldRegular
03-16-2005, 10:40 PM
From all the response from the pretribbers or premillennialists [or lack thereof] I assume no one is saved during the Millennial Reign.

Ed Edwards
03-16-2005, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by OldRegular:
From all the response from the pretribbers or premillennialists [or lack thereof] I assume no one is saved during the Millennial Reign. If i was a betting man, i'd bet
that way.

2Co 6:2 (KJV1611):
(For he saith, I haue heard thee in a time
accepted, and in the day of saluation haue I
succoured thee: beholde, now is the accepted
time, behold, now is the day of saluation)

Yep, i only bet on SURE THINGS. Nobody knows
if after the Christians are all gone to
heaven in the pretribulation rapture, if
anybody but Jews will be saved in
the Tribulation Period.

Ed Edwards
03-16-2005, 10:47 PM
Oops, i can't keep up with all the eschatology
topics. The previous post goes in
some other topic :confused:

Ed Edwards
03-16-2005, 10:49 PM
I can't say who: "I won't hold my breath."

Don't. I have no access to these books :eek:

Would you care to quote those documents
in the direction you would like to prove?

OldRegular
03-16-2005, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I can't say who: "I won't hold my breath."

Don't. I have no access to these books :eek:

Would you care to quote those documents
in the direction you would like to prove? Then you might try the Bible.

Ed Edwards
03-16-2005, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Rom 10:9 (KJV1611):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.

But there will be church age saints with
glorified bodies on the earth teaching,
and judging. The Lord himself will be on
the earth. Many shall be saved. The second post is repeated.
Seems a pretribulation raptureist done gone
and said how people get saved in the
Millinnial Reign of Christ.

But the same person didn't bother to notice
when literally 100s of verses support the
pretribulation/preweek rapture/resurrection
were offered.

Ed Edwards
03-16-2005, 10:53 PM
Duh! It would be impossible to prove
"there were no pretribbers amongst Southern Baptists until the Scofield reference book came along" from the Bible. Well maybe if you had
the version with Acts chapter 88 in it smile.gif

Dr. Bob
03-16-2005, 11:17 PM
How many unsaved people will survive the hell on earth of the 7-year tribulation and enter the millennium alive?

Do the math of the destruction and you have very very few.

Jesus will rule for 1000 years and most will be believers. At the conclusion there will be a rebellion of the unsaved (and their progeny from 1000 years) and final destruction.

I'm searching for any indication of people who will responed to the Gospel in the Kingdom. Can't find any thus far.

Sad to think that Jesus will reign (with a rod of iron) and they still will not believe. Sad the depravity of the human heart.

DeafPosttrib
03-17-2005, 08:31 AM
Christ tells us in Matthew 13:29-30, 39-42 about the harvest at the end of the age. Both tares and wheat are growing together, till the harvest time comes, then tares shall be gathering and separate them from wheat, cast them into fire. This is same with the world. Both unbelievers and believers are growing together. Unbelievers shall not be removed from believers till when Christ shall come with his angels at the end of the age. When Christ comes, He shall send his angels to gathering all unbelievers, separate them from believers same with Matt. 25:31-33. Then, all unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting fire. There shall be no unbelievers remain left beyond the judgement day at Christ's coming. Only remain is all believers have immortality, and shall live eternal with Christ on new earth after the judgement day at Christ's coming, it is clearly find in Matt. 25:46.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

OldRegular
03-17-2005, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
How many unsaved people will survive the hell on earth of the 7-year tribulation and enter the millennium alive?

Do the math of the destruction and you have very very few.

Jesus will rule for 1000 years and most will be believers. At the conclusion there will be a rebellion of the unsaved (and their progeny from 1000 years) and final destruction.

I'm searching for any indication of people who will responed to the Gospel in the Kingdom. Can't find any thus far.

Sad to think that Jesus will reign (with a rod of iron) and they still will not believe. Sad the depravity of the human heart. Well I am pleased that you believe one Biblical thuth, the depravity of man, I assume you are referring to the doctrine of total depravity.

However, I would be pleased if you would respond to the question: How are people saved during the Millennial Reign. So far I don't believe anyone has attempted an answer.

Daniel David
03-19-2005, 01:21 AM
Well, I am breaking my own sabbatical from this board only long enough to point out the answer for Oldreg.

The question is: how are people saved during the millenium if they can actually see Christ? In other words, where is the need for faith?

Well, my answer is simply this, take it for what it is: people who lived when Christ walked the earth and actually saw him still needed to personally believe in him. When Paul was confronted on the road to Damascus, he had to personally believe in him.

I sense a little pride in your question as though you got us somehow by a clever question. If you took the time to think through your question, a simple look at salvation is the gospels and for Paul give you the answer.

OldRegular
03-19-2005, 02:32 PM
When Jesus Christ returns He will come in the full glory of the Godhead. When He came the first time it was in the form of a man. A big difference don't you think.

Daniel David
03-19-2005, 03:00 PM
The answer remains, unless you think people are saved differently.

Ed Edwards
03-19-2005, 03:21 PM
Thank you David Daniel for dropping by.
I think you gave up BB for Lent? I hope
the last week of Lent will be well for you!!!

mountainrun
03-20-2005, 09:42 PM
The problem is not how to save those who enter the Millenial Kingdom. They are already saved or they would not be entering.

The problem is how to save those who are born in the 1000 years reign.

{As Dr. Bob pointed out, not many will be left after the trib. to enter the kingdom, and yet there are billions at the end. People will still have children and death will be rare.}


The solution is the same as for everyone...faith.

Now understand faith--

Faith is not simply believing the Jesus exists.
It is believing what He stands for and trusting in Him for salvation.

If seeing Him in person disqualifies ones saving faith , then those who saw Him 2000 years ago have a problem.

Some of those who see Him will trust in Him and some will not...their number will be "as the sands of the sea."

MR

OldRegular
03-21-2005, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by mountainrun:
The problem is not how to save those who enter the Millenial Kingdom. They are already saved or they would not be entering.

The problem is how to save those who are born in the 1000 years reign.

{As Dr. Bob pointed out, not many will be left after the trib. to enter the kingdom, and yet there are billions at the end. People will still have children and death will be rare.}


The solution is the same as for everyone...faith.

Now understand faith--

Faith is not simply believing the Jesus exists.
It is believing what He stands for and trusting in Him for salvation.

If seeing Him in person disqualifies ones saving faith , then those who saw Him 2000 years ago have a problem.

Some of those who see Him will trust in Him and some will not...their number will be "as the sands of the sea."

MR When Jesus Christ returns He will return in the full glory of the Godhead [Revelation 19]. Scripture also teaches that no man can see the glory of God and live.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

1 Timothy 6:13-16

13. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So how are people going to look upon Jesus Christ during the so-called millennial reign?

Ed Edwards
03-21-2005, 09:32 AM
Mountainrun: "The problem is not how to save those who enter the Millenial Kingdom. They are already saved or they would not be entering."

I respectfully disagree. The following Judgement is to determine
which surviving kingdoms enter
the Millennial Kingdom (MK) and which do:

(from Ed's Five Judgements document):
---------------------------------------

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age
---------------------------------------

Also in the MK will be the Messanic Jews saved in the
Tribulation 7-year-day and protected by the very hand
of God to the end of the Tribulation 7-year-day.
Also in the MK will be selected members of the church age
Christian elect saints. These will sit on thrones judging
as a reward for actions performed in the flesh prior to
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
These people will be in glorified 'heavenly' bodies.

OldRegular
03-21-2005, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Mountainrun: "The problem is not how to save those who enter the Millenial Kingdom. They are already saved or they would not be entering."

I respectfully disagree. The following Judgement is to determine
which surviving kingdoms enter
the Millennial Kingdom (MK) and which do:

(from Ed's Five Judgements document):
---------------------------------------
Do we have a new revelation from God: Ed's Five Judgements document?

Ed Edwards
03-21-2005, 09:54 AM
I said this:

(from Ed's Five Judgements document):

for two reasons:

1. There are people who check everything said
on the board to verify that the quotes are
correctly identified. The data following my
statement appears elsewhere BUT i wrote it.

2. It gives some a new way to damn me.
Yes, they were going to damn me no matter what
i did, but i like to make it easier for them :(

Ed Edwards
03-22-2005, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by OldRegular:
So how are people going to look upon Jesus Christ during the so-called millennial reign? The doctrine you damn: Dispensations,
has the answer to your question. But you
will have none of it.

In the Old Testament age, things are as you
note. In the Church age (AKA: New Testament
Age) things are as you note. In
the Millennial Reign Age we shall look up
on the face of Jesus, 2ed person of the
Trinity, and live.

mountainrun
03-22-2005, 12:02 PM
Posted by O.R.
==================
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So how are people going to look upon Jesus Christ during the so-called millennial reign?
=================

It is not Jesus that we cannot look upon in verse 16, it is the light in which He lives in Heaven.

When He returns, we will look upon His glorified body the same as they did after his resurrection.

Ed's post is confusing. I'm not sure how he has determined that unbelievers will enter the kingdom to repopulate the earth.
The only time you see them before Jesus is to be judged and cast into hell.

Matthew 24 teaches that believers will be left at His coming and unbelievers will be removed.

For the sake of argument however, and of the topic , these unbelievers he says will be in the millenial reign will have children and they will be saved or damned by their faith or the lack of.

MR