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mnw
06-06-2006, 04:55 PM
My wife and I have a problem with mixed swimming, but more and more it seems like we are a minority and made to feel like we're strange because we will not participate in it.

Now, the very parents who will not allow their teenage daughter wear mini-skirts for modesty reasons will freely allow them to wear much less when they go swimming - Whats the difference?!!??

Many churches where I am will arrange beach events for their teens and I know at some point I will be put in a hard situation. Some other church youth group will invite ours to meet them at the beach for fellowship and I will have to decline.

If you feel mixed smimming is okay, what is your reasoning?

If you are against it, do you find much opposition?

bapmom
06-06-2006, 06:14 PM
we're against it, too, but we don't see much opposition because our church is like-minded on that issue.

I didn't grow up this way, but when I was a kid I never heard any justification of mixed swimming. It was just accepted.

Dale-c
06-06-2006, 06:24 PM
I mostly agree with what you are saying but I would like to point something out for your consideration.

Is mixed swimming wrong?
No it isn't. There is no prohibition in the Bible to men and women swimming together.

Is it wrong for girls to wear immodest clothes around men they are not married to?
Yes.

Is it wrong for a man to look at the "nakedness" of a woman.
Yes, though how much is acceptable will vary from person to person.

So, instead of teaching that mixed swimming is wrong, teach your kids that lust and immodest clothing are arong, AT ANY TIME.

If you are not careful you can teach your kids legalism and in the future when you are not around, they may be confronted with a situation where there is no immodest dress, but they would say now because of the "rule"
Or, more likely, they would involve themselves in a totally unrelated activity that would be just as bad or worse, but they wouldn't no better because they had only been taught rules and not principle.

Does that make sense?

BTW, for the most part, I am opposed to mix swimming in the way it is usually done.

Rachel
06-06-2006, 06:25 PM
I don't see anything wrong with it. It's always good to have adults around too, of course.

Dale-c
06-06-2006, 06:28 PM
I don't see anything wrong with it. It's always good to have adults around too, of course.

DO you have a problem with women wearing clothes that are immodest?

Gib
06-06-2006, 06:36 PM
DO you have a problem with women wearing clothes that are immodest?

Women can swim modestly.

drfuss
06-06-2006, 06:38 PM
My wife grew up in a church that prohibited mixed swimming. She was one of the few girls in that church that did not have to get married. Girls in that church couldn't go to movies, dance, eat in a resturant that served acholic beverages, no television, etc. So guess what, nature took its course on dates since there was nothing else to do.

Many people today realize what the problem was in those days.

With what is on TV, in the movies, Bill Clinton's affairs, etc., mixed swimming is considered insignificant by most christians.

faithgirl46
06-06-2006, 06:42 PM
I dnon't blame you for not letting your daughter wear mini skirts.
Concerning mixed swimming, I see nothing wrong with it.
Faithgirl

Dale-c
06-06-2006, 06:44 PM
Women can swim modestly.

Yes they can, and so mixed swimming is not wrong.

Dale-c
06-06-2006, 06:45 PM
Concerning mixed swimming, I see nothing wrong with it.

There is nothing wrong with it. BUt if girls are wearing things that make minikirts modest....then you have a problem.

Sister Robin
06-06-2006, 06:49 PM
From a different perspective: I grew up living at the beach every summer. My parents mananged a hotel at Myrtle. We were never told there was anything wrong with mixed swimming, and wearing bathing suits was perfectly acceptible. Of course back then, the bathing suits covered much more than they do today!

I had never thought much about it until recently. A friend's daughter was molested by a deacon/youth leader at a pool party! (He is no longer there). And the more I grow in Christ, the more modest I have become over the years. Today, my sister asks me to go to the pool with her like we've always done... I won't go without a cover-up. I just feel too awkward or "immodest" walking around dressed (or not dressed) that way.

So... in my world, it was foreign to even hear any opposition to it. It was just the norm. But now, I'm not so comfortable with it.

Dale-c
06-06-2006, 07:01 PM
So... in my world, it was foreign to even hear any opposition to it. It was just the norm. But now, I'm not so comfortable with it.


But see, it is the immodesty you have a problem with, not the mixed swimming itself right?

J.D.
06-06-2006, 07:28 PM
Hello MNW, I've had a similar experience. When I moved to the northeast after living in the south all my life, I joined a church I thought had the same views as the one I was in down south. Boy was I wrong!

The church hosted a pool party for the youth. I stood my ground and refused to participate, and I'm glad I did. Many church people came up to me some time later and told me they were glad I made my stand and they always thought there was a double standard somewhere. Girls can't wear short-shorts, but they can wear bikinis? What's that?

If you want to know if swimwear for girls is appropriate, then just ask the boys - if they tell you what they really think. And you men know it's true.

On the morning the pastor announced the pool party during the SS assembly, I went to my SS class where in were my fifteen year old daughter and the pastor's fifteen year old son. The pastor's brash son unashamedly said to my daughter "I can't wait to see you in a swimsuite!" As I was drawing back my fist to knock him out, she retorted back "you will NEVER see me in a swimsuit!" It was the proudest moment of my parental career. I didn't feel the need to knock him out after that.

The pastor is now divorced and living with a married woman that came to the pool party to be "ministered" to. The boy is in prison.

Preachers shouldn't mince words when it comes to modesty, but he shouldn't be brutal either. I stood up to teach my current church one time and I said "Christian women do not want to make themselves objects of lust. When you reveal the skin or shape of your breasts, torso, hips, backside, or thighs, to men, you cause them to lust and God will be far from their minds". I've never had to say a single word about modesty since. And I don't have to be specific like some preachers do (don't wear this, don't wear that.

I am greatful to God that I can say there's not a single young lady in our church that you would catch in a swimsuite, and swimsuits have never been directly mentioned here.

However, I think it's a mistake to assume that because a young lady dresses in a modest way, even if she does so of her OWN convictions, that she will not get into trouble in other areas. Pastors and parents need to help girls understand what's going on in their bodies when hormones are raging and they are overwhelmed with a sense that they are "in love". It's important for fathers to show their love toward their daughters so that the girls have a sense of security - that they don't have to "find" love, because they already have it at home with daddy.

And if nature overcomes, there's no shame in marraige - it is honorable in all, and it is better to marry than to burn.

Milady
06-06-2006, 07:35 PM
Great reply JD! DITTO from me!
Milady

DeeJay
06-06-2006, 07:44 PM
There is a difference between dressing appropriate to swim and dressing to intentenonaly show off your body. A full peice swim suit is not inappropriate. A bikini is because it is ment to show the body.

Boys will look at girls no matter what they wear. So the problem is not swiming it is girls themselfs, with all their bumps and curves. I think the only solution is to put them into full burkas.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40734000/jpg/_40734881_burqawomen_afp203.jpg http://www.sme.sk/cdata/2410804/burkas.jpg

After all that would be the most modist clothing and therefor the right thing to do. All of you that let your women wear non-burka clothing are just immodist. :saint:

I am ready to defend my pro-burka position, useing the same argument you are useing against swiming.

faithgirl46
06-06-2006, 07:45 PM
There is nothing wrong with it. BUt if girls are wearing things that make minikirts modest....then you have a problem.
The problem I have with mini skirts is that they can lead a guy to think a girl is easy or worse. I used to swim laps and there were men and women there.
Faithgirl

bapmom
06-06-2006, 08:06 PM
I believe that realistically we all realized what the original poster intended by "mixed swimming". I think far too often we nitpick at words with each other here, when we know full well what the person meant.

That being said, I agree completely that we must teach our children the principle of modesty so that they can apply it in all areas of their life. That doesn't mean that Im not going to also tell them that they cannot wear a bathing suit in front of a male they are not married to. I should hope that everyone here would have the good sense to teach their children the reasonings behind our rules.....but I guess its a good thing to remind ourselves of.

And any girl who thinks that a one-piece bathing suit is modest is fooling herself. That's like saying "my coffee doesn't have any creamer in it, I only put in one scoop." (Quote from my hubby)

You're right, ladies can swim modestly. We do it all the time. We forget too that men need to be modest as well.

J.D.
06-06-2006, 08:21 PM
Hello DeeJay, I am for burkas too but my wife refuses to get in one of them. Infidel, that woman!

Seriously though, you are right, the male will see what he wants to see, even through a burka. Since you can't stop it, go ahead and issue every male a subscription to Playboy mag at birth? Well that's silly, but so is your analogy.

It's difficult at best for a man to not lust after women. All the more reason the women shouldn't be helping them do it. And there is a difference between HAVING a shape, and SHOWING a shape; between HAVING skin, and SHOWING skin. Is there not?

thjplgvp
06-06-2006, 08:23 PM
Modesty is prompted by the Holy Spirit and not legislated. A lady or man is at liberty to dress how they please but their presentation of themselves to others will tell if they are representing themselves or another.

Since most youth are unmarried they represent themselves first and have little regard for how they represent Christ in modesty. I am sure this is due in part to maturity certainly, but truly their focus is on 'me' as in look at me. For that reason I used to teach a lesson every year to our youth on ‘lines’ not standards but the natural lines formed by the body and snug clothing. It usually brought the usual grins, finger pointing and bowed heads within the youth department but generally speaking it also helped them to understand they were to dress to please Christ and not to meet a set of standards (you can dress to meet the dress standards and still be immodest) in the youth department and we had very strict standards but we seldom had to enforce them and never at the risk of first time embarrassment to a youth.

Once a youth or adult truly understands whom they represent their idea of modesty is heightened considerably. As an example years ago before I got saved when the heat came my shirt was removed, today I am embarrassed if someone shows up unexpectedly and catches me inside my home with out a shirt. While my upbringing remained the same my understanding of who Christ is and who I am in Christ changed. As an ambassador of Christ I ask myself who do I represent? When I represent me I dress how I would and if the world doesn't like it they don't have to look. When I dress as an ambassador of Christ I want to be clean and modest and my modesty is based on my understanding of modesty and not someone else’s idea of modesty.

You don’t have to teach against swimming but you are obligated to teach clear guidelines of modesty and why we are to be modest. Too often we believe our youth unable to understand the real reasons for doing things and we end up insulting their intelligence and underestimating their willingness to respond to Christ in a God honoring way. If they have been taught correctly you would not have to worry about the church sponsoring a swim party because they would not go anyway.

Rules without reason will equal chaos therefore tell them why.

DeeJay
06-06-2006, 08:25 PM
You are right not allowing your daughters and wifes to wear swimsuits. But alowing them to wear clothing that shows off their bodys like shirts and pants is only a little better.

THe result is the same, men looking with lust. It is like saying you can half sin. Then only solution is the full protection a burka offers.

I dont see why it is silly, it is logical according to the arguments made here.

Baptist in Richmond
06-06-2006, 08:27 PM
The church hosted a pool party for the youth. I stood my ground and refused to participate, and I'm glad I did. Many church people came up to me some time later and told me they were glad I made my stand and they always thought there was a double standard somewhere. Girls can't wear short-shorts, but they can wear bikinis? What's that?


A point worth noting is that the bikini is not really designed for swimming.

Growing up in Florida, I did an extensive amount of mixed swimming. I have never had a problem with it, and had never understood the outcry I have seen by some. I am not criticizing their conviction, nor do I question it. I can even respect someone's personal conviction with respect to this subject, provided that they keep their personal conviction..... personal. Consequently, I choose simply to ignore those who would impose their personal convictions on me.

Regards,
BiR (in Atlanta)

DeeJay
06-06-2006, 08:32 PM
I believe that realistically we all realized what the original poster intended by "mixed swimming". I think far too often we nitpick at words with each other here, when we know full well what the person meant.

Bapmom. Maybe I misunderstand what mixed swiming is. Is it ok to take my kids to the public swim pool this summer.

If a one piece swim suit is not modist what should she wear.

http://www.thecanadianmuslim.ca/i/TCMH105-1.jpg

I found this on a google search for modest swim suits. :smilewinkgrin:

bapmom
06-06-2006, 08:45 PM
DeeJay,

going to a ridiculous extreme is not a valid argument to what Im saying. Although I did like your little pictures up there,.....very colorful. :)

We were questioning mixed swimming because of what most people think of as swimwear. My kids wear swim suits....under a T-shirt and culottes(girls) or knee-length shorts(boys). They wear these sorts of clothes even though they do not swim in mixed groups (besides their brothers and sisters). My kids do not feel persecuted by this, because we do not make it a big grim ordeal. Its a fun swim time. And they have fun, too! We do not turn it into a monologue on "all those other people and what THEY are wearing." We simply wear what we wear and go on with our lives. And no, we do not go to public swimming pools because of what other people wear there. If I believe that it is not right for other people to see me and mine dressed immodestly, then logically I could not purposely take them somewhere where they will by definition see other people dressed immodestly.

BTW, DeeJay,
If I or anyone else were to have mocked and poked fun at YOUR standard in this issue you would have been quite upset and Im sure someone would have called us "unloving and legalistic." Yet interestingly it is you who have chosen to begin the mocking. :)

DeeJay
06-06-2006, 08:56 PM
Yet interestingly it is you who have chosen to begin the mocking.

It was humor, you know joking.

Seriously then what do you do about other places. You cant go to the mall or the park. You could never go to a beach walk past a magazine rack.

I think I need to alow my kids to live on this earth. I talk to them about modisty when they swim (in a public pool) they go in a one peice covered by a t shirt. When they get into the water they remove the shirt. They are just there to swim.

I dont think I can spend the next 18 years with my hands over their eyes. And what happens at 18 when I have to remove my hand.


going to a ridiculous extreme is not a valid argument to what Im saying.


BTW going to the rediculous extreme is what this whole tread had done. That was my point.

Shiloh
06-06-2006, 09:06 PM
It's wrong for a Christian......that's goes without saying. However the same goes for some of the clothing girls are wearing in church these days. It looks like some one put it on them with a paint sprayer.

Alcott
06-06-2006, 09:09 PM
Maybe this is the kind of swimsuit you should try to find:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/75/Bathing_suit_1858.png/200px-Bathing_suit_1858.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bathing_suit_1858.png)

saturneptune
06-06-2006, 10:05 PM
A person looking for an opportunity to practice sin will find it wherever he or she goes. If a person, for example, is looking for a way to leer, gaze, and lust after a woman, he will find a way to do so, whether or not mixed swimming is allowed or not. By the same token, a person in a right relationship with God can swim in mixed company without a second thought of lusting.

The same can be said for dancing, the internet, movies, etc. A person looking for evil will find it. This very internet you are posting on has some of the most vile web sites for the right amount of money. The Pharisees had lots of rules, but they did not love God.

If a person has a problem in the area of lust, then stay away from the temptation. That does not mean mixed swimming is wrong, it means the person is a weak Christian in that area.

J.D.
06-06-2006, 10:24 PM
Saturneptune said "a person in a right relationship with God can swim in mixed company without a second thought of lusting."

Are you a male of the species? If so, look me right in my virtural eyes and say that. Are you telling me that you can hang around all that female skin and shape and not lust? Is that how I know if I'm right with God - if I become immune to lust? Did you really mean to say that?

saturneptune
06-06-2006, 10:43 PM
Maybe your virtual eye could read what I said about second thought. The word second thought means there was a first thought. Of course no one is immune to lust. However, a person who is walking with the Lord dismisses the thought, turns it over to him, and does not give it a second thought. If you give it a second thought, you are sinning. If you are sinning, stay away. The point is that a person too weak to handle the situation should have sense enough to stay away. That fact is not justification for making a rule of no mixed swimming. If you like a bunch of do and dont rules, become a Pharisee.

Pipedude
06-06-2006, 11:03 PM
Whether or not it evokes lust, immodesty is wrong.

Can you tell when something is immodest, or are you helpless in this area?

If you cannot tell when something is immodest, and you therefore think that it's a matter of taste, then there's nothing more to say.

DeeJay
06-06-2006, 11:16 PM
Whether or not it evokes lust, immodesty is wrong.

Can you tell when something is immodest, or are you helpless in this area?

If you cannot tell when something is immodest, and you therefore think that it's a matter of taste, then there's nothing more to say.


http://photos1.blogger.com/img/46/2826/320/burka.jpg

Scarlett O.
06-06-2006, 11:20 PM
Is it just me....am I the only female who reads threads like this and feels "dirty" and "unclean" for having a "shape"?


Men have no control of themselves regardless of whether women wear bikinis or burkas???


This thread isn't about modesty. Apparently, it's about man's inability to control his thoughts and his flesh nature and about women being made to bear the guilt and shame of it.

James_Newman
06-06-2006, 11:57 PM
I don't know, I think DeeJay is on to something with the burkha idea. I will never allow my daughter to put on a 'bathing suit' and swim with boys. I used to be one and I know what goes on in their rattly little heads.

Helen
06-07-2006, 12:11 AM
If you are there to socialize, cover up. If you are there to swim, then swim. And a bathing suit (one piece is best for actual swimming!) is the best clothing for that. There are really pretty cover-ups to wear at swim parties and beach parties which don't feel out of place at all and are still very feminine and modest and fun to wear. But if you are actually swimming or diving, extra clothing can not only get in the way, but be a danger.

By the way, guys, those tight swim trunks which show everything plus are quite an embarrassment to many of us gals.

Magnetic Poles
06-07-2006, 12:14 AM
By the way, guys, those tight swim trunks which show everything plus are quite an embarrassment to many of us gals.
Good point, Helen. I wonder how many of the guys promoting burqas would cover more of their own flesh so as to not cause lust in the heart of the ladies.

Helen
06-07-2006, 12:16 AM
Girls aren't like guys that way. When I see a guy in one of those things I don't feel lust. I feel a little more like I want to throw up.

Magnetic Poles
06-07-2006, 12:19 AM
Girls aren't like guys that way. When I see a guy in one of those things I don't feel lust. I feel a little more like I want to throw up.Maybe not you, but some women do struggle with this. Sauce for the goose!

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 01:24 AM
Sauce for the goose!

I had to look that one up.


has traditionally been used to mean that whatever applies to a woman should apply to a man as well.


What an interesting idea. I hope all you that are so against mixed swiming dont watch basketball where the men have naked arms and naked legs. And I hope you dont watch football where the men have tight pants. Or any sport with cheerleaders involved.

How many of you would let your son play for the high school basketball team?

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 01:30 AM
We dont have much Nascar around here so I am not to informed. But I googled it to see, there seams to be alot of nascar girls with very little clothing. There is even a Nascar team sponsered by a polular restaurant that specalizes in hot wings and has something to do with an owl.

How many Nascar fans here? I know there are some.

eyeball
06-07-2006, 02:42 AM
Well, NASCAR is also very prominently sponsored by several very large beer companies that adorn their vehicles with very large advertisements, to say nothing of the Pfizer car, whose main products which treats... a very private and non-life-threatening condition. You get the idea. The restaurant in question is hardly the bottom of the barrel as far as Baptist ought to be concerned with regarding NASCAR.

mnw
06-07-2006, 03:04 AM
As usual when someone tries to promote a standard the opposition take it to an extreme...

Now I know I used mixed swimming in the original thread but that is because it is the prominent issue. Of course you have to teach the reasons behind such standards and carry them over into other areas of life. Now if we were to go simmwing and they wore t-shirts and stuff that is another matter.

When it comes to modesty I believe it applies to men and women. Sorry to those ladies who felt attacked.

So, the reasoning I find so far is that only weak Christians have a problem with lust. (Right, must include every teenage guy and at least most grown men, most teen girls...)

Or, "Hey, we're in the world and sin is all around us so why try to avoid it."

Or blatent inconcistency - "No I do not allow miniskirts but a swimsuit is okay."

From my perspective it is one way the world has crept into the church. I don't know how you could study it, but I am sure immodest mixed swimming has led to immodesty in every area in church history. I know of churches here that would frown on you not wearing a hat but you can wear a miniskirt.

Come on, if it is okay to show the skin all they way up to the thigh then why bother with skirts at all at any time? If it is okay for guys to wear just shorts and nothing else, then why not dress that way anytime?

Scarlett, don't feel dirty. All the thread is about is about modesty - for men and women.

Lustful and inappropriate attraction to the opposite sex is part of the fall. Adam and Eve were naked, until they knew they were naked. So perhaps dressing in a modest way is just a burden some have to bear.

Lastly, it seems the height of ignorance (Not meant as in stupid but as in ignoring the facts) to say that it is okay to dress even in a one-piece swimsuit and it not effect guys.

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 04:25 AM
Some standards need to be opposed and showing the extream is a good way of pointing out inconsistancy.

What I notice is people are against things they really dont care about anyway. People who dont like to swim are more likely to oppose mixed swiming. I bet more then half of those opposed are watching Nascar.


So, the reasoning I find so far is that only weak Christians have a problem with lust. (Right, must include every teenage guy and at least most grown men, most teen girls...)

Or, "Hey, we're in the world and sin is all around us so why try to avoid it."

Or blatent inconcistency - "No I do not allow miniskirts but a swimsuit is okay."


That is a gross miscaritarization of the opposition to your point. Nobody said we are in the world so why try to avoid sin.

Maybe the point is we are in the world and we need to teach our kids to deal with sinfull people instead of shelter them from sinfull people for 18 years then turn them loose in a world they have not been trained to deal with.

Look I can take my kids to the pool and we can just swim. That is what we are there for swiming. Are there girls dressed in bikinis, yes. Do I have difficulty not looking and sinning, yes but that happens at the mall, the grocery store, the park the street, etc.

I draw a difference between clothing ment to attract attention to a persons body and clothing ment to serve a function.

Example. A man on the beach in a speedo is dressed immodistly. However I watched the olympics and the swimmers wear speedos and I thought nothing of it. I bet most of you did not either.

Maybe we just draw our lines in different places. Does that make me a bad Christian?

mnw
06-07-2006, 04:44 AM
Some standards need to be opposed and showing the extream is a good way of pointing out inconsistancy.

What I notice is people are against things they really dont care about anyway. People who dont like to swim are more likely to oppose mixed swiming. I bet more then half of those opposed are watching Nascar.

I enjoy swimming, my wife loves swimming and for safety reasons wants our daughter to learn how to swim.

But perhaps your statement gets closer to the point. If we avoid temptation and uphold a standard in this area, perhaps people are afraid of the impact it has on the rest of their life.

That is a gross miscaritarization of the opposition to your point. Nobody said we are in the world so why try to avoid sin.

But then you go on to say

Maybe the point is we are in the world and we need to teach our kids to deal with sinfull people instead of shelter them from sinfull people for 18 years then turn them loose in a world they have not been trained to deal with.

Look I can take my kids to the pool and we can just swim. That is what we are there for swiming. Are there girls dressed in bikinis, yes. Do I have difficulty not looking and sinning, yes but that happens at the mall, the grocery store, the park the street, etc.

So, sin is every where so why try to avoid it? You made my point.

Do we have to go to the grocery store? Yes. Do we have to go to the mall to buy essentials and evangelise etc? Yes. Do we have to go swimming? No. Could we swim less by only swimming at certain places and arranged functions? Why not?

Of course we should not bundle them up in cotton wool and live on communes. But if they are exposed to sin in the malls and grocery store or public school why take them somewhere that magnifies the issue?

I draw a difference between clothing ment to attract attention to a persons body and clothing ment to serve a function.

Example. A man on the beach in a speedo is dressed immodistly. However I watched the olympics and the swimmers wear speedos and I thought nothing of it. I bet most of you did not either.

So, function negates standards? Again, perhaps the effect on the whole of our lives restrains us from applying a principle in any part of our lives.

Maybe we just draw our lines in different places. Does that make me a bad Christian?

No, I would not say that. But I do disagree with you.

I just cannot see how that because we are swimming we can cast aside the principles of modesty. That somehow because we are swimming we expect our dress standards to not be a stumbling block to others (men and women).

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 05:08 AM
So, sin is every where so why try to avoid it? You made my point.

That is not what I said. I did not say to not try to avoid it. I said to learn to not let it affect you. But that is not quite right either. It is the Holy Spirit that removes sin from our lifes and lust is a difficult sin. I guess here are two ways to deal with it. Not go anywhere that you can see skin or thru the Holy Spirits teaching learn to not let the girl in the bikini draw your mind into sin.

What I am saying is we can avoid sin without staying home. I dont see the difference between going to the pool where the girl is in a bikini and going to the mall where the girl is in a bikini top and short shorts.

We should thru the help of the Holy Spirit not let that draw us into sin.

So, function negates standards?

Ya, it is not a checklist of what we do and dont do what we can do and what we can not. It is what is in the heart and mind.

Do you not see the difference between the girl who dresses in the tiny tiny swimsuit to attract the boys by showing her body and the girl who dresses in the swim suit because she wants to compeat in the olympics and that is the clothing she needs to wear for the event.

The difference is in her heart, her mind and her intentions.

Do you have a problem being immodist at the Dr. office. Are we to set aside the standards when being examined by the Dr.? Extreme but you know the point I am making. The reason is important.

Just for the record. Are you saying you oppose the olympics and Christians should not compete or watch the swiming event?

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 05:22 AM
So, function negates standards

More about the Dr. office because this ilistrates my point perfictly. Unless you are Mr. Sanderson you have no problem loosing your standards to be examined by the Dr. Why?

Because you intention is not to show off your body, you are nekid for a function that is not sinfull.

So when you go to the Dr. you cast aside the principles of modisty.

If you say "this is why I do not go the the Dr." Then I give up :laugh:

mnw
06-07-2006, 05:30 AM
That is not what I said. I did not say to not try to avoid it. I said to learn to not let it affect you. But that is not quite right either. It is the Holy Spirit that removes sin from our lifes and lust is a difficult sin. I guess here are two ways to deal with it. Not go anywhere that you can see skin or thru the Holy Spirits teaching learn to not let the girl in the bikini draw your mind into sin.

But the Scriptures say to avoid the very appearence of evil.

Yes, the Holy teaches us and helps us over come sin and temptation, but why put temptation in our path? Why permit teenage guys and girls with raging hormones to be exposed to one another in such a way as to make them fall?

What I am saying is we can avoid sin without staying home. I dont see the difference between going to the pool where the girl is in a bikini and going to the mall where the girl is in a bikini top and short shorts.

The difference is that some places we need to go to, others we can avoid and it will not effect our lives.

We shold thru the help of the Holy Spirit not let that draw us into sin.

Again, prevention is better than cure. Better to not allow temptation in our path rather than let it be flaunted before our eyes.

Ya, it is not a checklist of what we do and dont do what we can do and what we can not. It is what is in the heart and mind.

Do you not see the difference between the girl who dresses in the tiny tiny swimsuit to attract the boys by showing her body and the girl who dresses in the swim suit because she wants to compeat in the olympics and that is the clothing she needs to wear for the event.

The difference is in her heart, her mind and her intentions.


So if a girl wears skimpy clothes to attract guys, or guys dress to attract girls, then it is wrong. But if a girl or guy wears skimpy clothes for function then somehow it is not a temptation to others?

Since when does our heart's intentions effect how others look at us?



As much as possible I believe in male doctors examining males and women examining women. It is not always possible or practical. But this is where the rules of ethics come in. Is it more important to save a life or appear modest? (Through in the facts of homosexuals and this gets tricky... :) )

[quote]Just for the record. Are you saying you oppose the olympics and Christians should not compete or watch the swiming event?

Immodesty is immodesty regardless of intentions or function.

mnw
06-07-2006, 05:32 AM
PLEASE don't compare me to Sanderson... I may have some strict rules in my life, but I don't beat up TVS. :)

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 05:40 AM
As much as possible I believe in male doctors examining males and women examining women. It is not always possible or practical. But this is where the rules of ethics come in. Is it more important to save a life or appear modest? (Through in the facts of homosexuals and this gets tricky... :) )


Sorry but this is the exact position Mr. Sanderson took.

I notice you say when possable. So it is ok to shed our standards. But I see what you mean there is a difference between medical care and swiming. One nessessary and one not.

SO you are not quite Sanderson like. :thumbs:

Just kidding. You make good points I will sleep on them. We may just have different approches.

but I don't beat up TVS. :)

You dont beat them up, but you do not own one right. Because more skin is seen on TV then any public pool.

saturneptune
06-07-2006, 06:20 AM
mnw,
If you want to be a Pharisee, be a Pharisee. Dont expect other Christians to do the same. While bringing up my teenage daughter, I used the Holy Spirit as a guide in me, and did not memorize a bunch of rules. There is no doubt in my mind that in the end, the standards I used go much deeper and long lasting in a persons life than a person who follows a bunch of do's and dont's instead of the Holy Spirit.

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 06:23 AM
But the Scriptures say to avoid the very appearence of evil.




Yes, the Holy teaches us and helps us over come sin and temptation, but why put temptation in our path?


Again, prevention is better than cure. Better to not allow temptation in our path rather than let it be flaunted before our eyes.


It just occured to me. Is it inconsistant of you to hold this possition and yet be posting on the internet.

As you know the internet is a virtual swimming pool of porn and scantily clad people.

Should we not avoid the temptation to sin on the internet by avoiding the internet all together? We dont need the internet people have done without it for thousands of years.

mnw
06-07-2006, 08:36 AM
Hey, look, another extreme!

I can go to many hundreds of thousands of sites on the web and rarely, if ever, be confronted with what I would find within in 10 seconds at a pool or beach.

Try again.

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 09:57 AM
mnw,
If you want to be a Pharisee, be a Pharisee. Dont expect other Christians to do the same. While bringing up my teenage daughter, I used the Holy Spirit as a guide in me, and did not memorize a bunch of rules. There is no doubt in my mind that in the end, the standards I used go much deeper and long lasting in a persons life than a person who follows a bunch of do's and dont's instead of the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Another fun-filled thread around the ole BB.

I say we form a committee to keep boys and girls away from each other completely until they are 28 years and 4 months old :praise: :thumbs: :smilewinkgrin:

mnw
06-07-2006, 10:14 AM
Deejay, though we disagree, I have appreciated discussing with you. You put forth points and reasons behind them. I can appreciate that.

Dale-C, thanks for your comment on the first page.
Others can only wade in with name calling... speaking of which...

mnw,
If you want to be a Pharisee, be a Pharisee. Dont expect other Christians to do the same. While bringing up my teenage daughter, I used the Holy Spirit as a guide in me, and did not memorize a bunch of rules. There is no doubt in my mind that in the end, the standards I used go much deeper and long lasting in a persons life than a person who follows a bunch of do's and dont's instead of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, so I make a decision and I am being a Pharisee, but you do it and it is being led by the Spirit...

Now put away your spite and name calling and please realise I began this thread in a friendly manner. I called no names and made no accusations. I simply asked for reasonings.

I bet if I started this thread by saying all Christians who think mixed swimming is okay are liberals I would have been slammed. But you can all call me legalistic and a pharisee and that is okay?

Where did you get the idea of it just being a list of does and don'ts? That implies I just say "Do it because I say so." But that is not the case. I do it and share what I believe because I have reasons.

And to expound on my statement regarding drs. Looking back I did not get to finish it. If possible then men examing men etc is best... however, if that is not possible then fine. If only male or only female doctors are around then we just have to live with it.

Call me a Pharisee, but not Sanderson. At least I come back to my posts! :)

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 10:20 AM
Another thought here: In today's world with the homosexual issues, why not just stop all swimming?

mnw
06-07-2006, 10:23 AM
You could have a point, but that seems like another extreme.

Bro Tony
06-07-2006, 10:28 AM
What this whole thread has proved is that extreme is in the eye of the beholder.

Bro Tony

mnw
06-07-2006, 10:33 AM
I do not get it. Really, I don't.

You say a miniskirt is immodest. I say a miniskirt is immodest.
I say a swimsuit, less than a miniskirt is immodest. You say I am legalistic and a pharisee.

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 10:35 AM
Kinda like you saying no mixed swimming is acceptable, but no swimming at all is extreme?

Ciela
06-07-2006, 10:39 AM
"I say we form a committee to keep boys and girls away from each other completely until they are 28 years and 4 months old." I vote "nay". :laugh:

I really want to thank you guys for having this discussion, enabling me to sit back and really consider what has been said without--as MNW continuously keeps pointing out--extremes. I have done a lot of mixed swimming in my life, and always assured myself that it was fine.

The only thing is, I felt extremely uncomfortable when my husband or 7 year-old son were with me, with the teen girls, women, and lifeguards strutting around all tan and fit in microscopic bikinis. As if my guys didn't look! Yeah right. As if it wasn't all over the pool area no matter where you looked!

As if I myself didn't notice all the muscular guys walking around too! Sure, we're only there to swim, but that doesn't mean that swimming disables our vision.
Maybe I'm not the norm, but I do notice. I don't suppose it is in the same way a guy would look at a girl, but I do wonder if it is right for me to be 'merely' admiring the physique of someone I'm not married to! I am all too human--Christian or not.

Anyway, this discussion has made me change my mind. Who was it in the Bible that said "I will put no wicked thing before my eyes."? Thank you for this discussion, and for helping me to confront this issue in my own heart. My husband made the decision a while ago to refrain from swimming except with our immediate family because he indicated it polluted his mind, and now I must admit--it isn't the place or way of dressing for me either.

Ciela

mnw
06-07-2006, 10:40 AM
SBC, If this is in reference to homosexuals, then this is how I see it.

When guys and girls swim together dressed immodestly you can 100% that some, perhaps all at some point, will struggle with sin.

With just guys or just girls you run into the possibility of homosexuals, but I think the chances are small enough to be over looked.

Now, what kind of a Pharisee would say that? :)

Ciela, thanks for your post.

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 10:43 AM
mnw, I understand what you are saying. However, guys and girls are going to all struggle with sin in that area regardless of whether they swim together or not.

bapmom
06-07-2006, 10:52 AM
This attitude most of you have adopted towards mnw is exactly what he was first posting about! He has a standard of no IMMODEST swimming (we can swim modestly and maintain our standard), and yet it is CHRISTIANS who call him names and claim he is a Pharisee and is going too far into the extreme. Why would a Christian attack a brother who is trying to maintain a standard of modesty for himself and his family? Why would you all do that to him? And DeeJay, no his standard should NOT be fought against. If it's not his business what YOU wear at the pool, then why is it your business what HE wears?
and Scarlett, my friend who I usually agree with wholeheartedly, I in no way think that this thread was all about the "inability for men to control themselves and the evils of the womanly form."

But let me add, does the BIble say "withstand lust because that means that you are a strong Christian" OR does it say "flee youthful lusts"? Which one, BIble scholars?

Especially in the area of lust and immodesty we are to FLEE, we are to do our best to AVOID the temptation. We are NOT told to stand up to this particular pitfall. So, if that means I can't bring my family to a busy beach full of people (BOTH genders) wearing things that are not only immodest but look bad on them, then so be it. I will survive, my kids will survive, and they will have a full life in spite of not going to a beach very much. This is from a California raised gal who had plenty of opportunities to go to the beach. I know there are plenty of beaches that are virtually vacant most of the year where we would go and have a blast without all that skin showing. It was great.

If you PARENTS act like it is a big deal to HAVE to dress modestly than your kids will see it as a hassle too, and will resent you making them dress right. But if you present it as just normal, and give reasoned responses to their questions, they accept it with gladness. You have to have your kid's heart, thats the issue.

I do think this is an area where Christians have obviously let the world's thinking creep in. They think that they can go to a beach and dress in a way that shows most if not all of their body, and also be looking at other people dressed that way, and that's fine. They think this makes them a stronger Christian somehow. No, it most likely means they've become desensitized to it and don't even realize it. There is such a thing as having your conscience seared. So, as a Christian, just because something doesn't "bother" you, doesn't mean that it doesn't bother God.

Ciela
06-07-2006, 10:57 AM
Mnw,

My husband is a former paramedic and has "blood-borne pathogen" classes at the pool for the lifeguards which bothers me, which I tell myself is completely silly. I trust him not to do or say anything inappropriate--that isn't the point. I'm sure I don't have to spell the point out.

He probably wouldn't like it either if I taught CPR to a class of shirtless construction workers.

I have casually asked him if he has to keep teaching them since he no longer is a paramedic, and he said reluctantly, "well...." It isn't necessary for him to do this since he hasn't been certified as a paramedic for three years now. I doubt it would bother me much to teach construction workers either--hello.

Is that extreme to feel this way? I feel irritated and at the same time--silly. Like I said, I haven't reacted or told him anything other than asking him if it is really necessary.

Ciela

P.S. Bapmom, you hit the nail on the head--straight on.

mnw
06-07-2006, 11:03 AM
Ciela, I'd be happy to discuss this with you, I'll send you a private messages.

I'd rather not disucss it on the forum as it is going off topic and may open a whole other can of worms. :)

Bro Tony
06-07-2006, 11:03 AM
Bapmom,

Let's be careful not to get carried away, only one person inappropriately (in my opinion) called mnw a name. The rest have been sharing their views which is why the subject was brought up. I continually am amazed that someone brings up a subject and then gets offended when there are those who disagree.

Again, this matter of modesty or extremes always comes back to the eye of the beholder and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the individual believer. We have seen everything from burkas to bikinis----where do you draw the line? Which is biblical? How do you know? And are your standards the standards that all must meet to be right with God?

Bro Tony

bapmom
06-07-2006, 11:05 AM
Ciela,

you have the right, as his wife, to express this to him in a kind and loving way. Talk to him about it like you just talked to us about it. Perhpas he has some real reason that it is necessary that he hasn't realized you needed to hear. Maybe he has some answers that would put your mind at ease. But as his wife you have the right to be bothered by it, and I say that because you already said you trust him.
WHen real trust is met with something that seems out of kilter than real trust has the confidence to ask him about it more pointedly.
As long as you aren't accusing him and assuming things than go ahead and talk to him more about it.

Ciela
06-07-2006, 11:06 AM
Mnw, okay. I really would like another perspective. Thank you.

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 11:06 AM
So, as a Christian, just because something doesn't "bother" you, doesn't mean that it doesn't bother God.

And just because something bothers you, does not mean it bothers God.

bapmom
06-07-2006, 11:16 AM
Bro Tony,

the name calling isn't the only thing.....it was the mocking tone that many posts contained that also got me riled up. But there's been alot of people who's basic response is "well then we can't go here, or there, or here. Hey, 4 pages of it magically appeared here after I went to bed last night. :laugh: See? I can still laugh about it. But you see, when you are conscious of those things then yes, you might not be able to go to the same places you've always gone to. I frankly avoid the malls as much as I can. I especially did that in California, as where I lived it was virtually the same as going to the beach when it came to what people were wearing. And yeah, I'll avoid some aisles in the grocery store because of what's on the magazine rack. Ive even politely complained to the management of one store because of a particular magazine they had on the checkout aisle rack.

It has just always amazed me that it is other Christians who we are not safe with when we have certain standards.


Drawing the line.......I think most of us understand what is modest and what is not. Those who have said they think swimsuits can be modest....I don't know what world they live in. Sure they can be feminine, but lingerie is feminine too, that doesn't mean it ought to be for public consumption. :)


ps. I absolutely love swimming

mnw
06-07-2006, 11:18 AM
Bapmom,

Let's be careful not to get carried away, only one person inappropriately (in my opinion) called mnw a name. The rest have been sharing their views which is why the subject was brought up. I continually am amazed that someone brings up a subject and then gets offended when there are those who disagree.

Bro Tony

I did not, and do not get offended or upset by people disagreeing with me. In my original OP I asked for it. What I objected to is throwing names around and being ridiculed for my position.

Bro Tony
06-07-2006, 11:25 AM
I did not, and do not get offended or upset by people disagreeing with me. In my original OP I asked for it. What I objected to is throwing names around and being ridiculed for my position.

MNW,

I was not specifically referring to anything you said but was trying to point out that the tendency here on the board is to become the martyr when someone dissagrees. I too think that all name calling is inappropriate. There are those who use sarcasm to make their points--as long as it is understood as such I see no problem with it.

I have no problem with your position---as long as it continues to be presented as your position. But when a question is asked in an open forum, you are going to get those who disagree. The problem I have is when people tell me that their standards (not the Bibles) are the standards for everyone. And I am not saying you did this.

Bro Tony

Andy T.
06-07-2006, 11:30 AM
You know, I don't even agree with MNW's position, but I do agree that he has been treated poorly in this discussion. I find that most of the time when one Christian calls another Christian a Pharisee (and others chime in and applaud) it just turns my stomach. In fact, the self-proclaimed Spirit-led Christian actually comes off much more Pharisaical than the one they are accusing. It reminds me of the Pharisee and the Publican where the Pharisee thanks God that he is not like the Publican.

To call another brother a Pharisee is really out of line. The Pharisees weren't even believers - they rejected Christ. Is that what we really think of someone who disagrees with our convictions? It's not like MNW has made this a test of salvation! I think an apology is in order from the accuser and from anyone else who piled on.

Bro Tony
06-07-2006, 11:31 AM
Bro Tony,

the name calling isn't the only thing.....it was the mocking tone that many posts contained that also got me riled up. But there's been alot of people who's basic response is "well then we can't go here, or there, or here. Hey, 4 pages of it magically appeared here after I went to bed last night. :laugh: See? I can still laugh about it. But you see, when you are conscious of those things then yes, you might not be able to go to the same places you've always gone to. I frankly avoid the malls as much as I can. I especially did that in California, as where I lived it was virtually the same as going to the beach when it came to what people were wearing. And yeah, I'll avoid some aisles in the grocery store because of what's on the magazine rack. Ive even politely complained to the management of one store because of a particular magazine they had on the checkout aisle rack.

It has just always amazed me that it is other Christians who we are not safe with when we have certain standards.


Drawing the line.......I think most of us understand what is modest and what is not. Those who have said they think swimsuits can be modest....I don't know what world they live in. Sure they can be feminine, but lingerie is feminine too, that doesn't mean it ought to be for public consumption. :)


ps. I absolutely love swimming

Bapmom,

Thank you for your response. I have no problem with how you have chosen to live your life and what you avoid in order to keep yourself where the Lord wants you. You said you think most of us understand modesty, now how long have you been here? If that were true then this thread and others like it would not go so many pages. How many here would say that women wearing pants is immodest? How about shorts on women? I become concerned only when people try to become the Holy Spirit for others and make their standard the required standard for all other Christians (again I am not saying you or MNW did this).

All name calling and personal ridicule is inappropriate, but if a person brings up a standard issue on this board you know it is going to be challenged. What other reason is there to bring it up? Some will challenge strongly and some will cross the line, but we all need to be careful not to fall into the martyr roll, as happens far too often in discussions.

Bro Tony

Bro Tony
06-07-2006, 11:33 AM
You know, I don't even agree with MNW's position, but I do agree that he has been treated poorly in this discussion. I find that most of the time when one Christian calls another Christian a Pharisee (and others chime in and applaud) it just turns my stomach. In fact, the self-proclaimed Spirit-led Christian actually comes off much more Pharisaical than the one they are accusing. It reminds me of the Pharisee and the Publican where the Pharisee thanks God that he is not like the Publican.

To call another brother a Pharisee is really out of line. The Pharisees weren't even believers - they rejected Christ. Is that what we really think of someone who disagrees with our convictions? It's not like MNW has made this a test of salvation! I think an apology is in order from the accuser and from anyone else who piled on.

I agree with Andy 100%:thumbs:

Bro Tony

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 11:41 AM
I apologize for amening the Pharisee remark. That was a poor choice.

All name calling and personal ridicule is inappropriate, but if a person brings up a standard issue on this board you know it is going to be challenged. What other reason is there to bring it up? Some will challenge strongly and some will cross the line, but we all need to be careful not to fall into the martyr roll, as happens far too often in discussions.

I agree with this statement and I think this happens a lot around here as well.

The problem I have with discussions on these type of subjects is how some people (not saying mnw did this) try to set their "standard" as God's standard for all believers.

If God's Word gives us a clear standard on a subject then we should stand firm on it with both feet. However, standards of man need to be handled very carefully and not made as standards for all.

bapmom
06-07-2006, 11:55 AM
You make a good point, Bro Tony,

thank you! :wavey:

Bro Tony
06-07-2006, 11:58 AM
Your welcome and God bless. I really enjoy hearing how God is leading others. It makes me stop and look at the way I see things and am living and causes me to try to listen closer to what the Lord is saying through His Word and His Spirit.

Bro Tony

DorthyMontine
06-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Haven't read every post here, but did read the first several pages.
So...don't know if this has been shared or not.

But, in the interest of modest swimwear for women, following are two links that might be considered by the serious inquirer.

http://www.swimmodest.com

http://www.modest-swimwear.net


Mixed swimming...yes...with modesty being a must. It can be done. Our son swims with a sleeveless tank and long swim shorts. Our daughter swims in long loose swim shorts with a loose sleeveless tank which is modest around arms and neck line. Yes, people can swim modest. The reason they don't is obvious, they want to show off the flesh. We are all liars if we deny that fact. If your hearts desire is to be modest and discreet, you will do so and you won't care if people call you legalistic because of it. You'll be doing it for the Lord and that is what truly matters. If you desire for your sons and daughters to have these same morals, you will teach it to them and challenge them to live by a higher standard than the world.

Okay, that's my .02!

Seth&Mattsmom
06-07-2006, 12:11 PM
I like those modest swim links. But you gotta wonder how they look sopping wet!

I am curious how many of the men here strip their shirt off while doing lawn work. It seems like every man in America thinks nothing of mowing the lawn in a pair of shorts and it is so uncomfortable to look out the window and see your neighbors half-clothed. Do I keep my family away from our own yard?

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 12:17 PM
So now there is a problem with a man mowing the yard without a shirt ...

Goodness, where will the madness end?

Seth&Mattsmom
06-07-2006, 12:23 PM
I have been uncomfortable with men without shirts on long before I was a Christian...but I added this because it is all mostly about women and modest dress. Sorry if my thoughts are not quite welcome.

webdog
06-07-2006, 12:32 PM
Is it just me....am I the only female who reads threads like this and feels "dirty" and "unclean" for having a "shape"?


Men have no control of themselves regardless of whether women wear bikinis or burkas???


This thread isn't about modesty. Apparently, it's about man's inability to control his thoughts and his flesh nature and about women being made to bear the guilt and shame of it.

You bring up a good point. I think many men get caught up in what women wear (or are not wearing), as opposed to how they are to act in a given situation. Lust is looking upon a woman with sexual intentions. Just looking at or noticing a woman with a "shape" does not necessarily lead to lust, so being around a woman in a bikini does not = automatic lust.

Bro Tony
06-07-2006, 12:41 PM
The guy next door to me would definately be a sin if he wore no shirt when mowing the yard. There are some things that need to be covered up---especially beer guts.:smilewinkgrin: :laugh: :praying:

Bro Tony

mnw
06-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Modesty is modesty regardless of whether you are a man or woman and whether it is at the pool or in the yard.

I appreciate those who have toned down their remarks and made apologies. I think most of us would have had to apologise on the board before.

Thanks for the posts dorthy and seth&mattsmom

Ciela
06-07-2006, 12:47 PM
Webdog,

Hmm, I couldn't say that for certain--I'm not a man. Both my dad and my husband have told me that the thoughts that go through a guy's mind are really not deliberate, but are definitely there. More "susceptible" is the word. What they see affects them differently than how it would affect women. At least, that is what they told me. And they aren't the only guys who have mentioned that.

My dad used to say, "you can't keep a bird from flying over your head, but you can keep it from making a nest in your hair."

Anyway, rather than make up rules, I just ask myself if how I dress is helping or hindering guys. Sure, they need to control their minds, and I also need to control my attire--two way street.

Ciela

Scarlett O.
06-07-2006, 02:22 PM
Who was it in the Bible that said "I will put no wicked thing before my eyes."?

Ciela

It was King David.

And surely you don't mean that women's bodies are wicked things?

I know that there is at least one BB member who believes that because he has said so in another thread a few months ago.

I have a whole lot of hash to sling here. This thread still has not changed it's derogatory tone about women and their bodies, but.......just forget the whole thing.

I need to move on with my day.

Ciela
06-07-2006, 02:36 PM
My point is not that anyone's body is a wicked thing.

My point is that women and men need to mutually respect each other in how they dress AND in how they ALLOW themselves to think about each other. My husband says that women who dress scantily send a message, and hopefully the guy is decent enough to ignore it. Two way street. Both are responsible not to stumble the other.

Showing off my body IS wicked, but the body itself isn't. Purposefully lusting after someone in the heart IS wicked.

Modesty is beautiful, not a ball and chain. Or Scripture itself would never have mentioned it.

Ciela

Pastor Larry
06-07-2006, 02:38 PM
This thread still has not changed it's derogatory tone about women and their bodies, but.......just forget the whole thing.]Actually, Scarlett, just browsing through here in a hurry, the thread was not derogatory about women's bodies. It was very complementary. That is the problem. Men like women's bodies in most cases, and they are instruments of sexual arousal. Most women don't understand that. When I first told my wife that years ago, she just couldn't grasp it. For that reason, women need to be very cautious what they wear. There is a reason why the vast majority of the porn industry is geared towards men ... because men like to look. And most men, in their honest moments, will tell you that a women in a bikini is a whole lot more arousing than a woman who is totally nude. A little something to the imagination is a great tool.

God commands modesty. And it is up to women to do their part to help men in the body of Christ. Yes, men are responsible for what they think; but women are to treat their brothers with love and accept that lust is a huge problem for most men. It is part of being a man. So the question is, Do you want to increase the chance that men will lust over your body? Will you feel like you have been edifying to the body if your style of dress is the reason why a man sins with lust? Is that really what you want to do to your brother?

Ciela
06-07-2006, 02:55 PM
I find it amazing that the attitude of many women is, "If you have a problem with it, don't look."

Wait a second. So the responsibility is only on their shoulders? As if they are blind as a stone. That isn't even realistic. If we expect them to control their thoughts, then by all means, we can control what we wear. Of the two, our responsibility is much simpler.

There is a big problem with immodesty in our day; it is just awful. Even my boss, an unsaved man, has sent girls home for showing off their belly buttons and wearing mini-skirts. Even he is appalled.

My dad was a school principal and sent a boy home for wearing an X-rated T-shirt to school. Yes--a boy. My brothers couldn't be shirtless at the table--out of politeness really.

Slinging hash is not necessary. Modesty--it is almost a dirty word these days--when it really is beneficial to both men and women.

Ciela

NateT
06-07-2006, 03:14 PM
I think part of what Scarlett is saying is that topics like this can come across as saying "Men are just a mass of molecules that can do nothing but respond to stimuli." That's the feel I got for the topic after the first two pages.

Can someone cause someone else to stumble? Absolutely, but is the one who stumbled less guilty of sin? I don't think so.

Wouldn't the whole dynamic of this conversation have been changed if the first few posters said something like "We don't mix swim, because when I see a woman in a bikini, it's hard to be God honoring" ? Instead, the tone was "We don't mix swim because of the skimpy swimsuits the women wear." (the focus was put on what the women wear, rather than the resposne the men had to them.)

mnw
06-07-2006, 04:06 PM
No one can entirely blame another for their sin. That is clear. And I don't think any posters on this thread have 100% blamed women in that sense. In fact, several posts have made a point of saying men and women have the responsibility to dress modestly.

Scarlett, sorry that this conversation has had such a negative effect for you. That was not the intention.

One of the angles I take is that a woman is more than just bumps and curves. She is to be honoured and respected. I know that immodest dress does not encourage the treatment a lady deserves or really wants.

The broader scope of this thread is modesty. The focus was on immodest mixed swimming.

Unfortunately most men, and perhaps all men, have a terrible weakness when it comes to what we SEE. I am told for women it is more about TOUCH. David only SAW Uriah's wife and that was it, the next thing he was an adulterer, murderer and mourning father.

Now, who was to blame? I believe Bathsheba a little... but David 100%!

My pastor used to tell me that if we see something arousing and turn away then God will help us, but if we look twice then we are in trouble.

So, going to mixed swimming where modesty is not on the agenda, I believe helps no one.

As for taking offence for someone stating that David would set no wicked thing before his eyes. We have to be cautious that the sensitivity of the women's lib movement does not effect us negatively. By that I mean we can be in danger of seeing offence where none was meant.

The womans body is no more wicked than a mans. But, I do believe its USE, such as in porn and evocative dress standards, can take something good and make it wicked. That is not to say that any girl in a swim suit is wicked, that is unless she has dressed purposefully to make guys lust.

Right, how big is the hole I am in now? :thumbs:

Well, I'll probably be up most of the night. My little girl (1 year old) started throwing up at church tonight and it does not look like she will stop any time soon. I'd appreciate prayer for her.

All that to say this - I'll be around and look forward to your posts! :)

mnw
06-07-2006, 04:07 PM
double post

mcdirector
06-07-2006, 04:29 PM
I've read most of the posts -- some I did just scan. I really like what Helen said. If you are going to swim, wear that one piece. If you are at the pool and not swimming, wear a cover up. If I had a daughter, I'd insist on a one piece.

I do think we should be modest and completely agree with Bro.Tony about that guy with the beer belly. *icky shiver* But I also think we have to use good judgement here or we will end up like a burka covering society. How do gals play basketball in those things?

I was raised in a home where extreme modesty was a must. My skirts were below the knee. I never got to wear sleeveless. My mom made my bathing suits (yes, she really did). That last little fact means that I did not learn how to swim. It was very hard being that different. There was NO conversation about the importance of modesty. I think that conversation with your children about what the Bible says and about why you feel the way you feel about dress and modesty is a must. Also, if you are going to insist on something different (like a homemade bathing suit), then by all means allow your child the opportunity to decline opportunities while they come to grips with their feelings. Yes, there is story for that one, but I can only share so much in one sitting without getting meloncholy.

As, I said, I think conversation about the whys are very important. I rebelled when I got the the age when I felt free enough to rebel. I never understood some of the dress restrictions. I was frequently embarrassed because I had no ownership in this issue. I've got a much better understanding today, but I'm grown with grown children of my own. I'm modest, but not as modest as my mom would have me be.

IronWill
06-07-2006, 04:33 PM
My wife and I have a problem with mixed swimming, but more and more it seems like we are a minority and made to feel like we're strange because we will not participate in it.

Now, the very parents who will not allow their teenage daughter wear mini-skirts for modesty reasons will freely allow them to wear much less when they go swimming - Whats the difference?!!??

Many churches where I am will arrange beach events for their teens and I know at some point I will be put in a hard situation. Some other church youth group will invite ours to meet them at the beach for fellowship and I will have to decline.

If you feel mixed smimming is okay, what is your reasoning?

If you are against it, do you find much opposition?

It ain't the mixed swimming that's wrong. It's the mixed nudity.

bapmom
06-07-2006, 04:42 PM
mcdirector,

what you described as "extreme modesty" is what we describe as normal in my house. :) (except for I don't make swimsuits.)

I think you'll agree that the big problem there was that the reasons behind those standards were not explained to you. I think we too often use the "easy" way with our kids and just say "because I'm telling you so", instead of meeting an honest question with a well-thought out answer.
I hope that those of us here have our reasons well enough hammered out in our own heads that we could explain them to our kids in a way that won't cause resentment....wherever our lines are drawn. :)

mcdirector
06-07-2006, 04:54 PM
bapmom,

That lack of communication that I experienced was the very reason I posted! I wanted my sons to know why I believed what I believed. I wanted them to see my faith in action. I'm sure most everyone here is sharing why they believe and expect the things they do, I just wanted to give a bit of food for thought for those that don't.

AND, today, I know more about my parents and why they operated the way they did. They both had a tremendous amount of baggage and did the best they could. It was tough then, but understandable looking back.

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 08:55 PM
After I left this morning I went to the gym. I thought MNW could not go here. After the gym I went to the department of motor vehicels to regester my truck. After a few girls walked in I thought MNW certenly could not be in here.

So I thought about you all day :tongue3:

I dont see anyway of removing myself from all the places that this comes up. And I have trouble with the half way stuff. The its ok to be around half naked people in the gym and the DMV, but not at the pool. I cant understand that.

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 09:00 PM
Please could somebody explain to me why a man with out his shirt on is immodest. I dont understand that, there are no parts to cover up.

This is all new to me, I have never heard anybody have a problem with swiming or shirtless guys until this thread. And I was suprised how many of you are onboard.

It was in the mid 90s today here. I can only imagin holding your position in Arizona or New Mexico. HOT

Seth&Mattsmom
06-07-2006, 09:25 PM
Just because there are no parts to cover up does not make it modest to not wear a shirt. You don't little girls that have not budded yet going topless - ever. Or a woman that has had a double mastectomy. Seems like a double standard to me.

gb93433
06-07-2006, 09:27 PM
Please could somebody explain to me why a man with out his shirt on is immodest. I dont understand that, there are no parts to cover up.

This is all new to me, I have never heard anybody have a problem with swiming or shirtless guys until this thread. And I was suprised how many of you are onboard.

It was in the mid 90s today here. I can only imagin holding your position in Arizona or New Mexico. HOT

Until part way into the last century a man could be arrested for not wearing a shirt.

Years ago I worked at a very nice conservative Christian camp. All the girls were required to wear a one piece swim suit. There were times when fundamentalist groups rented the entire camp and brought in their own preachers. What we always noticed was the fact that in the fundamentalist groups the boys would stand around the pool and look at the girls on the times they swam.

But in other groups with mixed swimming that did not happen.

DeeJay
06-07-2006, 09:32 PM
Years ago I worked at a very nice conservative Christian camp. All the girls were required to wear a one piece swim suit. There were times when fundamentalist groups rented the entire camp and brought in their own preachers. What we always noticed was the fact that in the fundamentalist groups the boys would stand around the pool and look at the girls on the times they swam.

But in other groups with mixed swimming that did not happen.

Sooooo......what you are saying is that fundamentalists are perverts.


Just kidding.....please hold the hate mail I was just joking fundies. :laugh: :laugh:

Wait GB93, that is kind of what you said. Is that what you mean.

J.D.
06-07-2006, 09:45 PM
I think that is an interesting point. It very well could be that because some fundy's so strongly emphasize avoiding such situations that they are never taught how to behave when they find themselves in such situations. I know there's a fundy school in Florida that goes to the "hottest" beaches to witness and they teach their folks how to behave. When I was younger I simply could not have participated in such a thing. I could do it now because I've developed some measure of self-control over my eyes. But on some days I still couldn't do it.

PastorSBC1303
06-07-2006, 09:57 PM
This is probably a bad time to share what our church did this evening. Together with some other churches in town we rented out the local water park and pool and had an free picnic and swim. The place was packed with people from all over our community. Our churches had people there to talk to folks, invite them to our different Vacation Bible Schools and interact with people. I personally had the opportunity to talk to people about church, vacation bible school and the gospel.

There were people dressed in all different kinds of swimwear. However, we were more interested in getting to know them and having opportunities to talk to them about the Lord. It was a great evening.

gekko
06-08-2006, 02:03 AM
oh no. my ancles are showing.
hehehe.
quoted much earlier - "Hey, look, another extreme!"
yah well - sometimes in exaggeration we see ourselves most clearly.
---

read most of this thread - cause i love swimming. :)
mixed swimming? dont think much about it - im more focused on the swimming aspect of it all rather then what other people's waist sizes are for their swimsuits...
look at it this way maybe - if you go to the swimmin pool - and you can't control your lust of the flesh - you should get your own private swimming pool - or go find a lake elsewhere. if you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen. simple as that.

on the other hand - for those professing christians who say they have no problem with lust - thats your problem right there - you embrace it - you say you dont have a problem with it because you working right beside it.

on the left foot (i've used both hands already... tryin to lighten things up here people :) ) we got the professing christians - who are true - who hate lust - and when they go swimming - and see all these people - the resist temptation - they just dont go there - with the help of the Lord.
---

at the camp i work at - we've passed the rule that there are only one piece swimsuits allowed - if you dont have one - where a shirt (not a white one either). this was because not all the kids going to the camp are christian. applies to staff as well.

but its mixed swimming. and who cares? i mean... c'mon people - ya aint mennonite are ya? LOL.
---

great job with what you did there PastorSBC! that's what we should focus on the most - evangelism - not fretting if its ok for a christian to be involved with swimming in a public pool.

if you tell your children to stay away from mixed swimming... you're just taking one area away where they could share their faith.
throw stones at me if you wish - but that's how i see it.

mnw
06-08-2006, 02:40 AM
My personal and family position - no immodest mixed swimming. As a pastor I will not arrange immodest mixed swimming. But as individuals the church can do as they wish - even arrange something amongst themselves. That is their right.

Why don't I do it? Because of modesty and consistency. I will not allow my daughter to wear a miniskirt and certainly will not allow her to wear less.

Are there times when ethics dictate that you do something that at other times would be considered immodest? Yes, that explains the doctor issue.

Deejay, I am touched that you thought of me through the day. :) But, with the exception of the gym I would go to those places.

Certain sights you cannot avoid, and should not otherwise you would become isolated and not separated.

But will I deliberately go somewhere that presents temptation? And should I advise others to go to such places? No.

THere it is.

Now, praise the Lord! My wifes visa just came through so she is no longer an illegal immigrant! :)

gekko
06-08-2006, 03:04 AM
mnw said " But will I deliberately go somewhere that presents temptation?"

umm... doesn't EVERYWHERE present temptation?

Mercury
06-08-2006, 04:26 AM
but its mixed swimming. and who cares? i mean... c'mon people - ya aint mennonite are ya? LOL. I am! (But as an Anabaptist I'm allowed to poke my head in the Baptist forums.) I've been bemused as I've followed this topic, though since I'm not new to the BB, I wasn't surprised. At my church, I don't remember this issue ever coming up. Modesty is encouraged, but swimming suits aren't singled out, and most appreciate that different situations call for different attire. (I have some loud Hawaiian shirts that are too loud and thus immodest for my church -- they'd draw attention to me -- but perfectly fine for other settings and perhaps even some other churches.)

And PastorSBC, that's an encouraging story. Indeed, if we focus on loving our neighbour by following Jesus' example, we'll be less likely to lust about them, regardless of their apparel.

Finally, to the suggestion that we should avoid places that cause temptation, I agree that this can be a good principle. However, I think that if we focus on seeing places like public pools or beaches as places to lust, then we will be more likely to be tempted by them. If we instead see them as places to swim or meet with friends or have a picnic, then perhaps we'll focus more on those activities than gawking. After all, if we cannot control our lusting, even a city sidewalk on a hot afternoon will provide plenty temptation, and even a gust of wind rippling a very modest skirt could cause us to sin. Indeed, if one were to withdraw from social interaction (which goes further than has been suggested), that would likely heighten one's temptation at even the most innocent human gathering. If we instead have healthy engagement with other people (understanding that this could look different for different individuals), we'll be less likely to objectify others.

mnw
06-08-2006, 05:34 AM
mnw said " But will I deliberately go somewhere that presents temptation?"

umm... doesn't EVERYWHERE present temptation?

Yes, but are some situations more of a risk than others? Now my turn to use an extremem...

What about all those poor, unevangelised who only ever take holidays at nudist camps? Who will reach them? And surely, if our intention is to reach them then we won't have a problem with lust?

Mercury, I can understand what your saying, but I do not entirely agree. If we go out with lust on the mind then that is what we will get. But, whether we expect it our noit some sins just creep up on us.

Can we, and should we escape it entirely? No, we are in the world but not of the world. Should we take reasonable steps to avoid certain places? Yes.

DeeJay
06-08-2006, 06:28 AM
I am! (But as an Anabaptist I'm allowed to poke my head in the Baptist forums.) I've been bemused as I've followed this topic, though since I'm not new to the BB, I wasn't surprised. At my church, I don't remember this issue ever coming up. Modesty is encouraged, but swimming suits aren't singled out, and most appreciate that different situations call for different attire. (I have some loud Hawaiian shirts that are too loud and thus immodest for my church -- they'd draw attention to me -- but perfectly fine for other settings and perhaps even some other churches.)

And PastorSBC, that's an encouraging story. Indeed, if we focus on loving our neighbour by following Jesus' example, we'll be less likely to lust about them, regardless of their apparel.

Finally, to the suggestion that we should avoid places that cause temptation, I agree that this can be a good principle. However, I think that if we focus on seeing places like public pools or beaches as places to lust, then we will be more likely to be tempted by them. If we instead see them as places to swim or meet with friends or have a picnic, then perhaps we'll focus more on those activities than gawking. After all, if we cannot control our lusting, even a city sidewalk on a hot afternoon will provide plenty temptation, and even a gust of wind rippling a very modest skirt could cause us to sin. Indeed, if one were to withdraw from social interaction (which goes further than has been suggested), that would likely heighten one's temptation at even the most innocent human gathering. If we instead have healthy engagement with other people (understanding that this could look different for different individuals), we'll be less likely to objectify others.

Mercury

A voice of reason. Well said.



MNW
Your saying I cant even go to the gym to work out because of what other people wear. What about the sin of slouthfulness? Cant play sports because of the cheerleaders, cant jog, mostly because I cant physicaly jog but also it is 95 degrees you can imagin what other joggers wear.

I guess I would weigh 400 pounds.

mnw
06-08-2006, 06:43 AM
Deejay, I am not saying what anyone else can and can't do. I am saying what I believe and hold myself to.

Are you saying I have to go swimming and take off my shirt when I mow the lawn? :)

Again, and lastly, it is about being reasonable. Can I leave my house without seeing something objectionable? Probably not. Can I minimise the wickedness that I see? Yes, by avoiding the places I do not NEED to go to.

I go jogging most mornings, just started again after a break and it is killing me! :) Do you risk seeing someone dressed immodestly? Yes, just as you would going to the store.

My position is about minimising those things which I do not want to see. And immodest mixed swimming is one such occasion not NEEDED and avoidable.

You do as you wish. Now, I believe I have nothing more to say on this so I am going to try and keep my virtual mouth shut. I have much to do. :)

Thanks to those who have agreed and my thanks to those who have disagreed and voiced reasoned objections.

mcdirector
06-08-2006, 07:23 AM
This is probably a bad time to share what our church did this evening. Together with some other churches in town we rented out the local water park and pool and had an free picnic and swim. The place was packed with people from all over our community. Our churches had people there to talk to folks, invite them to our different Vacation Bible Schools and interact with people. I personally had the opportunity to talk to people about church, vacation bible school and the gospel.

There were people dressed in all different kinds of swimwear. However, we were more interested in getting to know them and having opportunities to talk to them about the Lord. It was a great evening.

Fabulous idea. I'm thinking of moving to MO. How's your media center looking? :smilewinkgrin:

PastorSBC1303
06-08-2006, 03:09 PM
Come on over! :thumbs:

gb93433
06-09-2006, 04:23 PM
Sooooo......what you are saying is that fundamentalists are perverts.


Just kidding.....please hold the hate mail I was just joking fundies. :laugh: :laugh:

Wait GB93, that is kind of what you said. Is that what you mean.

Just telling what actually happened.

bapmom
06-11-2006, 04:41 PM
that is odd, gb,

the fundies I know figure that if you are against mixed immodest swimming, than its just as immodest to have the boys sitting around the pool watching the girls while they swim.

Its called separate swim times. Sometimes we just don't think.....right?

gekko
06-12-2006, 03:07 AM
i went mixed swimming in the rain today. :D

gekko
06-12-2006, 11:04 AM
i have a question:

for those who practice - or put to use the "seperate swimming times"
how do you deal with homosexuals and lesbians (provided that you dont know about their dilema)?

bapmom
06-12-2006, 02:24 PM
gekko,

we can only reasonably protect ourselves up to a certain point. In our family, the girls are wearing a shirt and culottes over their swim suit anyway, even though its all girls. We do believe in modesty in front of the same gender as well as in front of the opposite.

more later..............:wavey:

TaterTot
06-12-2006, 07:37 PM
I dont have aproblem with mixed swimming, but I do hate to see half naked girls followed around by drooling guys with sagging shorts. I take my youth group swimming in the summer, but they follow the clothing rules, or they wear what I provide them, lol. Our girls all wear T shirts over their swimsuits. And white ones dont count. And they also dont get to linger in corners and dark places or behind bushes or whatever places are available for inappropriate activity. We have lots of fun, and we usually have as many adults as we do kids.
Let me add, though, that we dont allow our 4 and 5 year old daughters to wear 2 pieces even now, although they are cute, because we want them to be accustomed to dressing modestly.

menageriekeeper
06-12-2006, 09:38 PM
Tater, if your girls are anything like mine, they wouldn't wear a bikini anyway. "But, but, my TUMMY shows!" (think very shocked, whiney voice)

Now I do like the new two piece suits for girls that have "boy shorts" for bottoms and tops that meet the bottoms. Modest as a one piece but much more convinient for restroom visits.

Mixed swimming? Well, us folks here at the menagerie left the critters and went on a vacation that included a trip to the beach. Can't get more mixed than that.

Thirteen year old Cassie got more looks and comments dressed in a full length evening gown during a cruise the week before than she did in her swimsuit on the beach (not one comment or overt look on the beach).

11 year old Chris, when asked directly, can't remember anyone on the beach without enough clothes on.

As for myself, I did see just one person who would have been just as well off nekkid, but it was only that one.

Modesty can be practiced even in mixed group swimming. Immodesty can be practiced in mixed group church. In our case, we practice modesty no matter what situation we find ourselves in to the best of our ability as God's grace allows.

But, if you are not comfortable swimming with the opposite sex, DON'T DO IT! But realize that this is a matter of personal preference and not a sin issue.

LOL, what bother me the most that day was the men who had words tatooed across their chests or backs in 3-4 inch letters. What's up with that? :confused:

2BHizown
06-12-2006, 10:41 PM
made to feel like we're strange because we will not participate in it.

Whenever we are 'made to feel' anything at all it is a sign of being shaped by the world. We should determine the best course for our actions, dress and devotion to God by scripture, as stated in Romans 12:1,2

All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2Tim3:12
Note that doesnt say 'possibly' but 'shall'.
This is a good measure of whether we mostly please the world or our Lord.

Dale-c
06-12-2006, 10:58 PM
11 year old Chris, when asked directly, can't remember anyone on the beach without enough clothes on.
Umm...I know you are a woman so you can only go by what you are told what you have observed when it comes to the way men respond, but I would say that the 11 year old boy either has not been taught what an immodest girl is( hte extent) or there truly weren'y any (doubtful) or he lied. Probably the first one.

Since when do we trust 11 year olds for our concept of modesty?

gekko
06-12-2006, 11:26 PM
a thought just occured to me:

could it be that its not really a matter of modest vs. immodest swimming attire along with mixed swimming?

but rather that it could be our mindset that is either modest or immodest? our thoughts being modest or immodest? our spiritual life being righteous or unrighteous? (no im not equating modesty with righteousness...)

but could it be? could it be that we're just defending our hearts and minds from that which we think is wrong? whether its wrong or not - is an opinion.

but could it be? that its more of a matter of a modest vs. immodest heart and mind condition rather then the actual physical swimming attire?

menageriekeeper
06-13-2006, 08:55 AM
Well Dale, this is the same kid who, when visiting the national gallery of art, made the comment that the artists should have painted the figures "with clothes ON!". I think he has a pretty good concept of what is modest and what is not.

And are you accusing me of having not already taught my son what modesty is!?

How many children are you raising Dale? (just an informational question that will allow me to better see where your point of view is coming from)

bapmom
06-13-2006, 11:06 PM
gekko,

I think you are falling into a myth that several others here have seemed to express as well......that if we had clean minds than immodesty wouldn't bother us. God says to flee this sort of temptation, not to fight it. And He does not say that we ought to use it as a test of how spiritual we are. Just to flee it. That would seem to mean we ought to avoid it, right?

Of course if there had been no Fall of Mankind then yes, "immodesty" would not be known among us. It would not then bother us. But there is no man or woman who is not under the Fall. I think your idea of someone with that "clean" of a mind could only be found in someone who had not Fallen.
Only one Person I know of would fit that bill. :)

gekko
06-13-2006, 11:14 PM
i agree bapmom. i was just throwing an idea out there. see where it would go.

yeah - if that temptation comes up - we've got to get up on the legs of Joseph and run! joseph didn't stick around to fight off potiphars wife. no he ran.

like what we gotta do when that type of temptation comes up.

personally - for me. mixed swimming doesn't rise up with temptations (im sure it does once in awhile at water parks and what not) but when i swim. im more focused on staying afloat rather then giving in to temptation. rather im more focused on God then anything else. but i sure as anything dont want to drown!

now im not saying im immune to temptation - nah. the Lord helps me not to give into it.

i mean. if you're swimming in the ocean - say you're surfing... and of course there's gon' be temptations rising up - and you're out on your board...
how are you supposed to run out of that situation? i dont think i can walk on water let alone run on it!

you may say "well then cut surfing out of your schedule!" ---> umm. no. surfing is one of the most fun extreme sports ever! cannot give up surfing...
unless God's got other plans. :D

i love the beach. i love the bush. that's why im applying for beach2bush ywam - ministries on the beach and in the bush.

DodgeRamFanatic
06-22-2006, 02:57 PM
Maybe clean, "modest" minds would help out a lot, but there's only one problem--two, as a matter of fact: #1 "The heart is deceitful and above all things desperately wicked--who can know it?" Whatever is in our hearts will eventually surface to our minds, and then come out in our actions. If we are wearing immodest clothes, no matter how clean our minds are, no matter how hard we try to control ourselves, we can very easily start acting sensual, or something, and that sorta opens up the way for us to do things that are a little unhealthy.

Earlier on in the topic, someone said something that puzzled me: "Women can swim modestly." Excuse me? That's almost impossible. Either we wear decentish shorts and T-shirt/tank-top that cling to us when we get outta the water/float up, or we're already wearing underwear that's so revealing and tight...

As for mixed swimming, Whoever-started-this-topic, you may feel weird, but you're definitely not the only one. I'm not about to take the chance swimming with guys any time soon.
DRF