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Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-15-2006, 05:15 PM
I have a real problem with this. My husband was recently creamated. It was not what I wanted but his wishes. I finally scattered his ashes last week. What does the bible say about people and their wishes to be creamated or does it say any thing . My heart is broken but I have let him go. I would of rather him be buried than creamated. :godisgood:

Jim1999
10-15-2006, 05:23 PM
The physical body is just that, a body. It came from dust and returns to ashes...burial just takes a little longer.

The memories are what remains in the heart and mind of the survivors. My burial services are the same for ground burials as they are for cremations....a service in behalf of the survivors in memory of the loved one. Cherish these. Either way it is hard on the loved one.

Many people have feeling similar to yours, but over time they get on with their own life, and there is no difference with ground burial, except the mourning seems to be renewed each time they visit the grave.

Cheers, and God richly bless you, and give you peace,

Jim

Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-15-2006, 05:32 PM
What does the bible say on creamations or buring the body? does it say anything or does it tell us what is right? :tear:

Ed Edwards
10-15-2006, 05:41 PM
The Bible is silent on cremation.
The Bible is NOT real specific about burial either, not
giving details.

Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-15-2006, 05:44 PM
I did not know if I was overlooking it or if there was a passage on burial or creamation in the bible.
:flower:

Scarlett O.
10-15-2006, 06:31 PM
There are christians everywhere who believe that cremation is a sin and that people who want or choose to be cremated are lost and going to hell.

They are wrong. What happens to the body in and after death has no bearing on one's spiritual nature.

I'll try not to be graphic, here, but I can't help it. There was a chemical plant in my area that exploded a several years ago. 7 people were killed. None of them could have an open-casket funeral. In fact, there was no need for a casket........you see, in the explosion, they basically disintegrated.

The rescue team spent three days looking for any traces of their bodies. They found nothing.....literally nothing. They had to be declared dead without a body. There were no funerals, only memorial services.

What's the difference in their tragic deaths annihilating their bodies to nothingness and someone choosing to be cremated?

"Thou shalt not cremate" or any other similar reference is not in the bible.

I believe the bible in it's truth and holiness and I intend to be cremated, myself. I, personally, see no conflict.

Besides.....I don't own a burial plot! :laugh:

pinoybaptist
10-15-2006, 08:10 PM
There is no Scripture that says "Thou shalt bury thy dead in this manner......", burying the dead has been customary in the Bible.
The manner of burial varies also.
There are also no specific prohibitions to cremating anyone.
Dr. Livingstone (if memory serves me right) said once, "wherever my body turns to dust, there will my Lord raise it up again". Not verbatim, but that was the thought.

In like manner, you may have cremated your husband, and scattered his ashes, but in the last day, God is able to raise up your husband, as He is able to raise up anyone.

Peace.

rbell
10-15-2006, 09:38 PM
Many folks have in the past misinterpreted the OT phrase "pass through the fire" for cremation. Example: Manasseh made his son "pass through the fire" (2 Kings 16:3). But that involves human sacrifice to the god Molech, not cremation.

Others have shunned cremation because some eastern religions practice it Hindus believe that cremation "best releases the soul." However, since other pagan religions practice burial (Islam, for example), we're back to square one.

blackbird
10-15-2006, 10:46 PM
I go along with the others here-----whether you bury the body or burn it-----what difference does it make??? On Resurrection Day---which will be harder for the Lord Jesus to do????-------raise those who were buried---or gather together individual particles of dust scattered through burning???

When God gives the word----I'm coming up out of the ground----whether I be in a coffin----or in an Urn---whichever one---when He speaks--I will obey!!!!

Gershom
10-16-2006, 06:43 PM
Biblical practice is burial, not cremation.

rbell
10-16-2006, 09:07 PM
Biblical practice is burial, not cremation.

What we see recorded in scriptures was burials. However, burial was never "prescribed," and cremation was never condemned. You will find no passage of scripture that does that.

Sure, Jacob in the OT was buried. But he also had two wives. Let's be careful to not confuse descriptive accounts with prescriptive behavior.

Brother Bob
10-16-2006, 09:17 PM
Very difficult to give a scripture in this case even if you know of one, or at least seems to be one. Has anyone read Amos 2:1

Gershom
10-16-2006, 10:48 PM
What we see recorded in scriptures was burials. However, burial was never "prescribed," and cremation was never condemned. You will find no passage of scripture that does that.

Sure, Jacob in the OT was buried. But he also had two wives. Let's be careful to not confuse descriptive accounts with prescriptive behavior.

The biblical practice is burial. If you want to follow biblical principles, then bury your dead. If not, do what you want.

Scarlett O.
10-16-2006, 10:55 PM
Very difficult to give a scripture in this case even if you know of one, or at least seems to be one. Has anyone read Amos 2:1

This was a case of barbarism, even brutality. It's not about burial vs. cremation.

Apparently the bones of that Edomite king were burned and used as lime would have been used and done so as a purposeful act of cruelty and barbarism.

This particular Moabite king was really into burning people, too. See 2 Kings 3:26. He also burned his own child as a burnt offering to false gods when being overthrown by the Israelites.

This passage isn't about cremation as an option for what to do with a corpse after death.

Diggin in da Word
10-16-2006, 11:10 PM
From what I read in the Old Testament, it was the pagans who were burned or cremated. God's people were buried.

Many say that cremation is ok because of Paul's words, 'If I give my body to be burned...', I am not sure if Paul is saying cremation is ok there or not.

If the Old is a foreshadow of the New, then should we not be buried?

Unfortunately, in the day and age we live in, many cannot afford to spend 7,000 dollars or more to put their loved one in the ground. That is an awful lot just to bury under the ground.

Cremation, on the other hand, is less than 1,000 dollars and made more affordable to all.

My question is, since in the Old Testament God's people were always buried and the pagan were burned, should we be cremated?

Was Paul speaking of cremation when he stated 'Though I give my body over to be burned...', or was he speaking of martyrdom?

Diggin in da Word
10-16-2006, 11:23 PM
Scarlett,

I am not sure the king was burned while alive there in Amos 2:1.

Amos recorded that the Edommite king's bones were burned, which would infer the deceased body.

(a) For the Moabites were so cruel against the King of Edom, that they burnt his bones after he was dead: which declared their barbarous rage, that they would avenge themselves upon the dead.

Seems to be a clear contrast to Paul's statement, 'If I give my body to be burned...'

Scarlett O.
10-17-2006, 08:06 AM
Amos recorded that the Edommite king's bones were burned, which would infer the deceased body.

Yes, that's what I said. I said that the Edomite king's bones were burnt.

I said the Moabite king burned his own son alive. :flower:

Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-17-2006, 09:17 AM
You really got me confused now. When I scattered my husbands ashes as he wished, was I wrong to do so? Will I face condemnation for scattering his ashes?

rbell
10-17-2006, 09:57 AM
You really got me confused now. When I scattered my husbands ashes as he wished, was I wrong to do so? Will I face condemnation for scattering his ashes?

not at all. There is no biblical mandate prescribing burial. There is no biblical prohibition of cremation.

As I said earlier, we know that many of the people of the Bible buried their dead. But that is descriptive...i.e., "Jacob was buried." It does not say anywhere in the Bible that burial is prescribed for people of God...i.e., "You shall bury your dead, cremation is abomination," etc.

People that say, "folks in the Bible buried their dead; thus we should too" should remember:

Men in the OT also had multiple wives. Should we follow everything they do?
If we're gonna say, "Do the burial customs of the Bible to be right with God," then we should wrap and embalm the dead ourselves, using spices and cloth strips...and never on Sunday (see how Jesus' body was prepared).You did fine doing what you did. God is perfectly able to resurrect your late husband's glorified body in the last day.

Joshua Rhodes
10-17-2006, 10:04 AM
God is omnipotent. Knowing this, He'll have no problem raising your husband, no matter where his body is. God bless you sister. I'm praying with you.

Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-17-2006, 10:06 AM
I really needed to hear that, makes me feel a little better, I struggled to scattered his ashes for over 6 months. He passed on in April 2006 and when his best friend died last week and was creamated also, I decided it was time to release him because I had these weird dreams and in one I ask him if he was hurting were he was at. He was lying on a gourney. He looked at me and said yes, so the next day I released his ashes. Now, I don't know what to feel. I don't believe in dreams but that cut my heart in half. :praying:

Joshua Rhodes
10-17-2006, 10:10 AM
Mary -

I'm still dealing with my daughter's death in July. She was stillborn with only 11 days to go. I understand the weird dreams, the unsettledness, and the pain... although mine is different than yours, quite obviously. Serve the Lord, pray for healing, get some counseling if you can, and above all... reflect on the good memories that you have. If He was a Christian, you will see him again... and he will be whole.

Magnetic Poles
10-17-2006, 10:20 AM
rbell said Let's be careful to not confuse descriptive accounts with prescriptive behavior.
This has to be one of the wisest and most profound comments I have ever seen on the BB.

What happens to a body is of no consequence. It is just the lifeless remains of a person who is no longer in need of it. People get burned all the time, leaving no body behind (e.g. the 9/11 victims who burned to death).

Cremation seems to me to be a good way to dispose of the body. Takes no land for burial, and as burning is a chemical process much like decay, it matters not. Actually, although it won't matter to me then, I think I would prefer cremation after reading what happens to a person's body in today's airtight coffins. If I were buried, perhaps a simple pine box would be better. Also better for cremations, as many funeral homes will try to sell you an expensive casket, then destroy it during cremation.

Mary Diana, my condolensces on the loss of your beloved husband. I pray you find peace in this matter.

Brother Bob
10-17-2006, 10:31 AM
I am sure it will be alright Mary. I shouldn't of even posted what I did.

Gershom
10-17-2006, 05:54 PM
not at all. There is no biblical mandate prescribing burial. There is no biblical prohibition of cremation.

As I said earlier, we know that many of the people of the Bible buried their dead. But that is descriptive...i.e., "Jacob was buried." It does not say anywhere in the Bible that burial is prescribed for people of God...i.e., "You shall bury your dead, cremation is abomination," etc.

People that say, "folks in the Bible buried their dead; thus we should too" should remember:
Men in the OT also had multiple wives. Should we follow everything they do?
If we're gonna say, "Do the burial customs of the Bible to be right with God," then we should wrap and embalm the dead ourselves, using spices and cloth strips...and never on Sunday (see how Jesus' body was prepared).You did fine doing what you did. God is perfectly able to resurrect your late husband's glorified body in the last day.
Of course it's descriptive. It was the practice of God's people from the begining. Even God practiced burying the dead, not cremating.

To say men in the OT practiced polygamy has zero to do with whether or not we should practice burial. Apples and oranges, my friend. To say using spices, etc. is simply a side issue to burial and does nothing for your argument.

Diggin in da Word
10-17-2006, 06:05 PM
Agreed, Gershom.

The fact that we cannot find one instance of God's people being cremated by order of God, yet He does give commad for burning of pagans... The fact that we find God Himself burying Moses, should show us that is what God intends for the deceased Christian... burial.

But, as I said, many this day and age cannot afford to purchase a 7,000 dollar casket only to pay someone else to bury it in the ground. Cremation is much, much more affordable.

Do I think Mary is condemned for honoring her husband's wishes? It matters not what I or anyone else thinks. What matters is what is God telling her?

Many times when we feel guilty about something, it is the Spirit convicting. If that is the case, there is good news. God is a forgiving God. He is faithful and just to forgive (if He considers it to be sin). And when He forgives, He forgets. He will not condemn for something that He has fogiven.

Gershom
10-17-2006, 07:45 PM
BTW, I do not judge or condemn the OPster. May God bless you and give you peace and comfort during the absence of your husband. Look ahead to when you will see him again. Remember God's promises and hold to them.

God bless you.

John of Japan
10-18-2006, 09:17 AM
I really needed to hear that, makes me feel a little better, I struggled to scattered his ashes for over 6 months. He passed on in April 2006 and when his best friend died last week and was creamated also, I decided it was time to release him because I had these weird dreams and in one I ask him if he was hurting were he was at. He was lying on a gourney. He looked at me and said yes, so the next day I released his ashes. Now, I don't know what to feel. I don't believe in dreams but that cut my heart in half. :praying:
Mary, as one living in a country that mandates cremation, may I share with you, and maybe give some more comfort?

In Japan, it is virtually impossible for a Christian to be buried. I only know of two graveyards in the whole country of 120 million people where you can actually bury your loved one. I've never talked to a Japanese Christian who had a problem with cremation. In fact, one very mature Japanese Christian once shared how to him, cremation was better, because the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, yet putting it in the ground as is will not prevent the destruction of the body! He felt that cremation was a cleaner and better way to do it. Furthermore, scientifically speaking, what takes place in cremation and in burial are the same chemical process--cremation simply greatly speeds up the process.

As has been pointed out on this thread, there is no Bible command on the matter, even in the OT law, which is very specific in most things. If there is no command to bury, then there is no sin in cremation.

We have in our church a precious believer, Mr. Ueno. His Christian wife died suddenly of cancer down in Yokohama, and he had no place to bury her, though he was able to find a church that would do the funeral. (Her own church refused to bury her since she had not been sprinkled.) He brought her ashes up here to his hometown, and then one day his brother asked if I could help.

As it happens, we have a joint grave between two churches where we place the ashes of believers. When he came to us hoping we could help him he was heartbroken, and still had his wife's ashes after several months. I told him I thought we could help him finally bury his wife's ashes, but what was more important, he would never see her again if he did not trust Christ as Savior. It was so easy to win him to the Lord!

Do you know, at the graveside service where we put his wife's ashes into our church grave, I was so blessed to be able to do that for him! It mattered not at all to me that she had been cremated. What mattered was Mr. Ueno's precious soul. He was baptized not long after that, and is one of our few members. (Japanese churches are tiny.) Furthermore, his whole family heard the Gospel for the first time at the graveside!

Be comforted about your husband. You did what was right.

rbell
10-18-2006, 09:25 AM
Agreed, Gershom.

Many times when we feel guilty about something, it is the Spirit convicting. If that is the case, there is good news. God is a forgiving God. He is faithful and just to forgive (if He considers it to be sin). And when He forgives, He forgets. He will not condemn for something that He has fogiven.

Many other times when we feel guilty about something, we are allowing the extra-biblical mandates of others to weigh us down.

rbell
10-18-2006, 09:26 AM
good post JoJ. Thanks for the insight.

dan e.
10-18-2006, 09:34 AM
I've heard some interesting insight from various views. One has struck me, and that is the avoidance of cremation as believers. I am not in any way saying that cremation is definitely wrong, or there is any punishment for it. However, although our bodies die and return to the ground, don't we believe that they will be raised?? This does not say that God cannot raise a cremated body, He can, and surely will raise many, I imagine. Rather it is the testimony that goes with the burial of a believer. The testimony that says, "I have returned to the earth, and will be raised in the end." Is it better to avoid cremation for the testimony of the future hope and resurrection? Or does it not even matter either way? I'm not sure, but I think that burial over cremation makes sense. Not a hill I'm going to die on, but just an interesting thought.

Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-18-2006, 09:49 PM
Dear JoJ
Thank you so much, you are a blessing in disguise. Your words are very comforting and your heart must match. Thank you again:love2:

TaterTot
10-18-2006, 10:00 PM
The Bible speaks of even the sea giving up the dead that are in it. Those bodies are most likely not in complete bodily form either.

I think John hit the nail on the head. Mary Diana, I also think you did right by keeping your husband's wishes. May God grant you His peace.

Marcia
10-18-2006, 10:02 PM
What does the bible say on creamations or buring the body? does it say anything or does it tell us what is right? :tear:

Since it was your husband's wishes, you should not feel bad about it at all, even if you didn't want it.

The Bible is silent on this but I think we can draw some principles from the Bible to address this issue, without calling cremation a sin.

I used to want to be cremated before I was a believer and told everyone this, so when I became a believer, I had to rethink it (along with everything else in my life.

This is my view: If someone else wants to do it for themselves, I would not say it is a sin. However, I do not want to request it because it is the deliberate destruction of the human body, which was created by God. Even though it's a mortal body, it is still from God. Even though our old bodies will be transformed into new, spiritual bodies, it is still from God.

A lot of people say "the body doesn't matter" and "many people have their bodies destroyed" in fires, etc.

My response:
1) The body does matter; we are spirit-mind-body unities. It's the New Agers who say the body doesn't matter and believe it. It's part of their worldview. I know, I used to be one. They believe the body is a mere vehicle for the soul or spirit. This is not a biblical view.

2) Just because some people's bodies are destroyed in fires, etc., does not mean it's okay to deliberately demolish the body after death.

I still say don't feel bad since this was your husband's wishes - just let it go. The Lord understands why you did what you did.

Gina B
10-18-2006, 10:03 PM
I don't think it's wrong. I see nothing in scripture that says it's wrong, or even best. You followed his wishes and what he asked you to do. That was right.

I personally choose burial because it's what happened with Jesus...then again I'd also prefer to rise again in three days, but neither idea makes my personal preference any holier than someone elses. However, if it wasn't for that I'd go with cremation myself because I just find the whole concept of embalming and using sealed caskets very disconcerting and odd. (in other words, I don't get it!)

But if my loved one requested it, especially a husband, then it would be my job to carry that out. You did that, so good for you. There certainly are no scriptures against it, and I have looked because I was considering cremation for myself until a pastor friend pointed out the idea of burial being closer to what Jesus did, but even he made it VERY clear that it wasn't a command or anything close, that it was a personal decision that didn't has no "better this way or that" written out in scripture for us!

Joshua Rhodes
10-18-2006, 10:07 PM
Personally, I don't care what those who are left do with my body. I won't be here. As I already have a funeral plot, I imagine that I will be buried, next to my daughter. But I'll already be gone, so it really doesn't matter to me.

Jim1999
10-18-2006, 10:10 PM
Does anyone know how long it takes for a buried body to turn to ashes?

The big difference between burial and cremation can be about $5,000.00.

Jesus wasn't buried. He was placed in someone else's catacomb, with a huge rock rolled in front to close it off.

Cheers,

Jim

Marcia
10-18-2006, 10:11 PM
dan e., I think you made some good points I had not thought of.

I agree - it is not a hill I would die on, but I do think there is an issue here. Christians should not demean the body or make it seem like it doesn't matter. God created bodies for a reason and gave them to Adam and Eve. It makes us very distinct from the animal world and since all that God created was good, our bodies were created good. True, they are fallen now, but they will be raised and transformed.

It's a popular view on our culture, which grows more Gnostic every day, spiritually speaking, to demean the body or make it seem not important. At the same time, we are into health fads to make the body better. A very mixed up society it is.

Gina B
10-18-2006, 10:14 PM
Jim, I said in the same post that burial is "closest" to what Jesus did, but yeah, I didn't make that clear in the first part of the post! Thanks for pointing it out clearly.

I've never been responsible for carrying out the finalities of a loved one...but it's gotta be tough to have to wonder if you did the right thing on top of that. :(

Humblesmith
10-18-2006, 10:17 PM
It is not a sin to follow someone's wishes and cremate.

However, as dan and Marcia have pointed out, the church's position for 2000 years has been burial. The reason? Because we believe in ressurection. In 1 Cor. 15, Paul says 11 times directly, and 3 times indirectly, that our physical bodies will be raised. We will not be Casper the friendly ghost, but rather the same body that went in the grave will rise again. This idea that we will get new bodies in heaven is only a very modern idea.....no Christians of any other age believed that. Christians have always believed in respecting the body because scripture says very, very clearly that it will rise again. We are indeed mind/body/spirit.

That said, I in no way mean to upset you, Mary. The body is only particles, and God put it together once, He can put it together again. My sympathy to you and your family.

Helen
10-18-2006, 10:25 PM
Mary, you did just fine. Let me add another thought to all this. The cells in our bodies replace themselves a number of times between life and death. So which bits will be resurrected? The cells of those long since buried, whether Christian or pagan, have become elemental now. We may be breathing a bit of Aristotle! The elements all get recycled over and over again.

So what happens to a body after death has nothing to do with how God will resurrect any of us. He knows what He is doing, and if I have a bit of an arm in China, and He wants that bit to be resurrected with me, great. But I'm not worried about it. He's God!

John of Japan
10-19-2006, 03:01 AM
Dear JoJ
Thank you so much, you are a blessing in disguise. Your words are very comforting and your heart must match. Thank you again:love2:
God bless you, Sister Mary. My heart goes out to you. I can't imagine being without my beloved mate. I am sure that God, since He is love, is giving you sweet comfort.

John of Japan
10-19-2006, 03:52 AM
It is not a sin to follow someone's wishes and cremate.

However, as dan and Marcia have pointed out, the church's position for 2000 years has been burial.
I think this is improvable, and truly a Western point of view. Are you sure it is the Eastern view? Can you give me evidence from church history about Eastern Christianity? The Japanese Christian point of view has been cremation for hundreds of years (since Francis Xavier).

I just looked in the index of my History of the Church by Eusebius (early 4th cent.). Nothing. I then did a computer search on my "Church Fathers" disk, and found 50 references to "burial" with only one telling how to do it. According to the apocryphal "Acts of Philip," Philip wanted to be buried in Syrian paper rather than linen like Christ. (By the way, in Japan we bury after cremation, so the term "burial" itself does not mean interment.)

The term "interment" occurs only 14 times in the Church Fathers, and none of those times mandate interment. Besides, none of these mentions were in the apostolic fathers (nor did the term "burial" occur in the apostolic fathers), meaning that no one in the early church had a thing to say about burial.

There is a mention of cremation in the Syriac translation of "The Apology of Aristedes the Philosopher" (125 A. D.) describing the customs of the Egyptians. However, a direct translation from the Greek gives "burnt as offerings" instead of "cremated." At any rate, Aristides did not condemn the practice, he only mentioned it. Now, if the Egyptians did cremate and God disapproved, we would expect to find mention of it in the Mosaic Law. We do not.

There is also a mention of Indian cremation in a pseudo-Clementine work, but it doesn't condemn it per se.

So, the idea that the Christian church has always practice interment has no historical proof for at least the first 400-500 years after Christ. In fact, I found opposite evidence in my search.

The above mentioned Aristides wrote in 125 A. D., "They also err who believe that fire is a God. For fire was made for the use of men, and it is controlled by them, being carried about from place to place for boiling and roasting all kinds of meat, and even for (the burning of) dead bodies. Moreover it is extinguished in many ways, being quenched through man’s agency. So it cannot be allowed that fire is a God, but it is a work of God." So this Christian philosopher thought fire was a gift of God which could be used in cremation.

In his last three chapters, Aristides describes Christian customs, but never discusses the mode of burial. So, how did the early Christians conduct funerals? They didn't tell us. So why should it matter?:type:

John of Japan
10-19-2006, 04:01 AM
I agree - it is not a hill I would die on, but I do think there is an issue here. Christians should not demean the body or make it seem like it doesn't matter. God created bodies for a reason and gave them to Adam and Eve. It makes us very distinct from the animal world and since all that God created was good, our bodies were created good. True, they are fallen now, but they will be raised and transformed.

My Japanese Christian friend believed it was more demeaning to the body to put it in the ground where it will rot than to cleanly cremate it.

Personally? Shortly after I came to Japan a Japanese young man who later became a pastor asked me how long I planned to stay here. I said I planned to die here. (Now I'm not so sure I won't someday retire to the States and teach. :smilewinkgrin: ) This pastor became a dear friend, and one day said to me, "Himes Sensei ("previously born one," or teacher), when you die you can be buried in our church grave!" I was deeply touched. Interestingly, his church grave plot was in one of the two graveyards I know of in Japan for interment.

Now we have our own church grave, so if I die here my ashes will be buried here right next to the ashes of the believers of my church. I can think of no better end to this old house of clay. It matters not to me whether I am interred or cremated. Let me just live for Christ.

Diggin in da Word
10-20-2006, 01:28 AM
this Christian philosopher thought fire was a gift of God which could be used in cremation

For some insight into passages that speak on cremation, click here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/crematio.htm)

With the many passages given, although some pertain to burning of idols and cities, I think it is safe to say God does not want those made righteous in Christ to suffer the burning that was commanded for pagans and such like.

John of Japan
10-20-2006, 04:13 AM
For some insight into passages that speak on cremation, click here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/crematio.htm)

With the many passages given, although some pertain to burning of idols and cities, I think it is safe to say God does not want those made righteous in Christ to suffer the burning that was commanded for pagans and such like.
I found the article very disappointing. Calling the burning of idols and burning people alive the same thing as cremation is dishonest, IMO. Here in Japan, people often burn their idols when they become a Christian, but absolutely no one considers that to be cremation. On the contrary, they know that the idols are not and never have been living!

Again, in the couple or three passages that actually could be said to refer to cremation, there was no prohibition. If cremation is wrong and a custom of the heathen only, why did not God prohibit it in the Law?

Furthermore, neither of the two examples given in the NT were cremation: burning books on magic, and people thrown into the lake of fire (which will not destroy them but only punish them). So there are no verses in the NT whatsoever on cremation.

The argument that burning always means a curse is very weak. If simple burning means a curse, then the burnt offering God commanded the Jews to do was a curse.

Diggin in da Word
10-20-2006, 10:46 AM
Apples and oranges, JoJ...

A burnt offering that God commands cannot be compared to His command to burn pagan people. The command to burn pagans was justice meted out. The burnt offering was to be a sweet smelling sacrifice to the Lord, not justice.

Diggin in da Word
10-20-2006, 12:43 PM
Abraham was buried (Genesis 25:8-10)

Sarah was buried (Genesis 23:1-4)


Rachel was buried (Genesis 35:19-20)


Isaac was buried (Genesis 35:29)


Jacob was buried (Genesis 49:33; 50:1-13)


Joseph was buried (Genesis 50:26) Joseph’s bones were carried for 400 years before burial. Surely if God’s people were allowed cremation, Joseph would have been cremated! Would it not be much easier to carry a 3 to 4 pound urn of ashes rather than a heavy box with a human body for 400 years?

Joshua was buried (Joshua 24:29-30)


Eleazar was buried (Joshua 24:33)


Samuel was buried (1 Samuel 25:1)


David was buried (1 Kings 2:10)


John the Baptist was buried (Matthew 14:10-12)


Ananias and Sapphira were buried (Acts 5:5-10)


Stephen was buried (Acts 8:2)

"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain; But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. ... So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power; It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" 1 Cor. 15:35-44

It is interesting that Paul gives an illustration of planting seed in comparison of burial of a body. When a farmer gets seed from a store, he does not destroy the seed before planting it in the ground. No, he plants it that it might decay naturally to bring new life. That is a picture of burial of the body to decay naturally and be raised into new life at the resurrection.

It is evident that the Old Testament prophets as far back as Job believed in a bodily resurrection, for Job wrote:

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." (Job 19:25 – 27)

Examples of cremation:

The example of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Peter 2:6)
The example of Nadab and Abihu (Leviticus 10:1,2)
The example of the men who rebelled with Korah (Numbers 16:35)

The Word of God records that ‘we are not our own, for we were bought with a price.’ And what a price that was! Is it glorifying God to destroy the body? Is it bringing glory and honor to Him to reject burial of the natural body and choose that which is associated with the ungodly? Our body is not ours, it belongs to God. Would it be right to burn something that you were entrusted with that belonged to someone else?

Jesus was buried. This is evident as recorded in the gospel of Luke:
"Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. ... There laid they Jesus therefore. ..." (John 19:38-42)


According to God’s Holy Word, the soul of the Christian goes to be with Christ immediately upon death (Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; 2 Tim. 4:6; Lk. 23:43).
The soul of the lost person descends to hell immediately upon death (Lk. 16:22-23; Rev. 20:13).
That which is done to the body after a person dies, whether saved or unsaved, does not affect the soul's condition nor does it affect the future resurrection of the body.
Therefore, if a loved one has been cremated, it's not something to worry one’s self about. It is over and in the past and has no eternal consequences, IMO. If that loved one was saved through his or her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the fact that he or she was cremated certainly didn't keep him or her out of the eternal rest in heaven!

rbell
10-20-2006, 12:56 PM
Many biblical tombs were above ground, so "burial" is a bit misleading.

We don't practice the customs of preparing the body like the jews did...

...so if you're gonna go by "biblical practice" skip the funeral home, get your cloths and spices ready, and "bury" your loved ones above ground.

So Abraham was buried. Abraham also had livestock. Does that mean anyone who doesn't have livestock is wrong? Don't turn a simple historical account (Abe was buried) into prescribed behavior (ya'll have to be buried).

Besides...wouldn't it be consistent with NT theology to not be worried about the body? Heck, if it's buried, it'll decompose anyway. It's ashes either way you go...just a difference in speed.

Diggin in da Word
10-20-2006, 01:03 PM
Jesus wasn't buried. He was placed in someone else's catacomb, with a huge rock rolled in front to close it off.

Cheers,

Jim

Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 15:4 would refute that statement, Jim. It reads:

1 Corinthians 15:4 4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

rbell
10-20-2006, 01:07 PM
Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 15:4 would refute that statement, Jim. It reads:

1 Corinthians 15:4 4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We've changed the definition in 2000 years. Today, "burial" means (usually) "in the ground." Then, "burial" wasn't necessarily subterranian.

Same difference. Jesus died, and rose.

Diggin in da Word
10-20-2006, 01:15 PM
Same difference
Isn't that an oxymoron?

Jesus died, and rose.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Jesus did not just die and rise again. Paul included 'And that He was buried' for a reason.

rbell
10-20-2006, 01:25 PM
Last post on this hijack for me...I don't want to totally derail the thread.

DITW, I'm not saying "Jesus wasn't buried."

But "burial" was done differently in AD 30 than in 2006 AD. The word "burial" did not necessarily mean "under ground." Many tombs were above ground. "He was buried" means he was placed where one would place a dead person.

Hope of Glory
10-20-2006, 02:04 PM
But "burial" was done differently in AD 30 than in 2006 AD. The word "burial" did not necessarily mean "under ground." Many tombs were above ground. "He was buried" means he was placed where one would place a dead person.

Actually, the word used there is "entombed", so I guess we need to quit burying people, according to Diggin, since that's not what they did back in the day.

OTOH, we could just accept that God is powerful enough to resurrect us, whether we are buried, entombed, burned, or whatever. Or, we could worry about the state of those who have died accidentally in horrific fires.

MLDH, I agree with Helen: Ya done did good.

Diggin in da Word
10-20-2006, 03:04 PM
If one looked at Biblical history, one would see that the tombs they were buried in were generally in a hole dug on the side of a hill or mountain. Even though they were above one level of the ground, they were still buried under the ground because earth or rock in that hill or mountain was above them.

HoG, your insults are uncalled for.

Gershom
10-20-2006, 05:04 PM
Lots of sidetracking going on in some of the replies from pro-cremators in how God has the power to resurrect a pile of ashes; how a burial should be followed to the mark, etc. But the point is:

God's people did not practice cremation.

Diggin in da Word
10-20-2006, 05:31 PM
Amen, Gershom.

One might also note that God told Adam

Genesis 3:19 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

He did not say 'for ashes thou art', and ashes are not dust.

Helen
10-20-2006, 07:15 PM
Ummm, let's do a little of the yuckier biology here, OK?

When a body and soul are separated in death, the body begins to decay. In the biblical days, it would be entombed or buried with just a cloth. No nice metal casket to keep the worms out. And so the organisms in the ground would gradually eat away at it, including the worms. The person's body would become worm poo in part, which is very good to help plants to grow. The person's elemental remains would be recycled into plants, dirt, even some in the air, washed out to sea in part....or into the ground water to be drunk later by others....

Dust was the smallest bit of matter known in the ancient days. Dust to dust simply means back to the elements -- the same stuff that makes up the dust. Ashes make up a good part of dust, especially after fires and volcanoes! Dust includes ashes in their tiniest pieces.

It does not matter HOW your body is returned to the elements. The simple fact is that, unless the Lord Himself intervenes, it will be. Rot, burning, whatever. It does not matter.

As for me, whatever the survivors wish to do with my body is fine with me. I won't be living in it anymore! They need to do what makes THEM feel more comfortable with the death process.

Joshua Rhodes
10-20-2006, 08:27 PM
Lots of sidetracking going on in some of the replies from pro-cremators in how God has the power to resurrect a pile of ashes; how a burial should be followed to the mark, etc. But the point is:

God's people did not practice cremation.

God's people didn't do alot of things back then that God's people do today. Or maybe you can show me Biblical precedent for alot of the things we have or do in our churches. Just because cremation wasn't a traditional method of dealing with the deceased does not make it wrong.

John of Japan
10-20-2006, 09:13 PM
Apples and oranges, JoJ...

A burnt offering that God commands cannot be compared to His command to burn pagan people. The command to burn pagans was justice meted out. The burnt offering was to be a sweet smelling sacrifice to the Lord, not justice.
Maybe I should have explained. Some who oppose cremation do so saying that fire in the Bible always means judgment. (I don't say that you do.) That is what I was referring to.

Cremation and burning a live person: apples and oranges. So, the early church writer mentioned by me earlier opposed suttee, the practice of burning alive the widow on the funeral pyre of a dead man, but did not oppose the cremation per se. Again, it was largely due to the efforts of William Carey, the Baptist missionary, that suttee was abolished in India. However, to the best of my knowledge, Carey did not oppose the practice of cremation itself.

John of Japan
10-20-2006, 09:14 PM
Ummm, let's do a little of the yuckier biology here, OK?

When a body and soul are separated in death, the body begins to decay. In the biblical days, it would be entombed or buried with just a cloth. No nice metal casket to keep the worms out. And so the organisms in the ground would gradually eat away at it, including the worms. The person's body would become worm poo in part, which is very good to help plants to grow. The person's elemental remains would be recycled into plants, dirt, even some in the air, washed out to sea in part....or into the ground water to be drunk later by others....

Dust was the smallest bit of matter known in the ancient days. Dust to dust simply means back to the elements -- the same stuff that makes up the dust. Ashes make up a good part of dust, especially after fires and volcanoes! Dust includes ashes in their tiniest pieces.

It does not matter HOW your body is returned to the elements. The simple fact is that, unless the Lord Himself intervenes, it will be. Rot, burning, whatever. It does not matter.

As for me, whatever the survivors wish to do with my body is fine with me. I won't be living in it anymore! They need to do what makes THEM feel more comfortable with the death process.
Well said, Helen. And thanks for taking on the yucky part! :thumbsup: :tongue3:

John of Japan
10-20-2006, 09:17 PM
Examples of cremation:

The example of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Peter 2:6)
The example of Nadab and Abihu (Leviticus 10:1,2)
The example of the men who rebelled with Korah (Numbers 16:35)

These are NOT examples of cremation, they are examples of burning someone alive. Apples and oranges. The Japanese Christians would be horrified to hear their custom being compared to Sodom and Gomorrah. But they are not reading this, so I will be horrified for them. Totally ridiculous!!

El_Guero
10-20-2006, 09:50 PM
These are NOT examples of cremation, they are examples of burning someone alive. Apples and oranges. The Japanese Christians would be horrified to hear their custom being compared to Sodom and Gomorrah. But they are not reading this, so I will be horrified for them. Totally ridiculous!!

Maybe he just wants a little personal judgment!

Gershom
10-20-2006, 10:47 PM
God's people didn't do alot of things back then that God's people do today. Or maybe you can show me Biblical precedent for alot of the things we have or do in our churches. Just because cremation wasn't a traditional method of dealing with the deceased does not make it wrong.

Doesn't make it right either, now does it? If someone were to ask for guidance in how to lay a body to rest, whether cremation or burial, I'd point them to scripture (which is our ultimate source for all things pertaining to life and death) where the evidence is overwhelming that burial is the way to go - the proper method, practiced by GOD Himself. Now, if you or anyone else wants to point them in another direction, that's on you.

Gershom
10-20-2006, 10:52 PM
God's people didn't do alot of things back then that God's people do today. Or maybe you can show me Biblical precedent for alot of the things we have or do in our churches. Just because cremation wasn't a traditional method of dealing with the deceased does not make it wrong.

Church government hardly compares to laying a body to rest.

Ed Edwards
10-20-2006, 11:15 PM
Gershom: //If someone were to ask for guidance in how to lay a body to rest, whether cremation or burial, I'd point them to scripture (which is our ultimate source for all things pertaining to life and death) where the evidence is overwhelming that burial is the way to go - the proper method, practiced by GOD Himself.//

Sometimes God picks up used bodies by fire :)

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
And it came to passe as they still went on
and talked, that beholde, there appeared a charet of fire,
and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder,
and Elijah went vp by a whirlewind into heauen.

Not to mention a Tornado.

John of Japan
10-21-2006, 05:03 AM
Gershom: //If someone were to ask for guidance in how to lay a body to rest, whether cremation or burial, I'd point them to scripture (which is our ultimate source for all things pertaining to life and death) where the evidence is overwhelming that burial is the way to go - the proper method, practiced by GOD Himself.//

Sometimes God picks up used bodies by fire :)

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
And it came to passe as they still went on
and talked, that beholde, there appeared a charet of fire,
and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder,
and Elijah went vp by a whirlewind into heauen.

Not to mention a Tornado.
Great point Ed!! :thumbsup:

I'd love to go up in a Mustang, myself!

Gershom
10-21-2006, 02:39 PM
Gershom: //If someone were to ask for guidance in how to lay a body to rest, whether cremation or burial, I'd point them to scripture (which is our ultimate source for all things pertaining to life and death) where the evidence is overwhelming that burial is the way to go - the proper method, practiced by GOD Himself.//

Sometimes God picks up used bodies by fire :)

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
And it came to passe as they still went on
and talked, that beholde, there appeared a charet of fire,
and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder,
and Elijah went vp by a whirlewind into heauen.

Not to mention a Tornado.
Not sure what this has to do with burial vs cremation, or how it would play in favor of cremation. ???

rsr
10-21-2006, 02:45 PM
Church government hardly compares to laying a body to rest.

True. Church government is far more important.

Joshua Rhodes
10-21-2006, 02:46 PM
Doesn't make it right either, now does it?

My point exactly. Not right, nor wrong.

If someone were to ask for guidance in how to lay a body to rest, whether cremation or burial, I'd point them to scripture (which is our ultimate source for all things pertaining to life and death) where the evidence is overwhelming that burial is the way to go - the proper method, practiced by GOD Himself.

I'll agree Scripture is the source for those things. But you don't make stuff up when Scripture is silent on the issue, Gershom. We have instances of burial in the Scripture, that is correct. But I don't remember one of the commandments being "Thou shalt bury the dead." Why limit those options, when Scripture is silent?

Now, if you or anyone else wants to point them in another direction, that's on you.

Great. It's on me, whatever that means. :thumbs:

Joshua Rhodes
10-21-2006, 02:47 PM
Church government hardly compares to laying a body to rest.

And I wasn't referring to "church government" per se. Tradition does not equal Scripture. End of story.

Gershom
10-21-2006, 03:03 PM
My point exactly. Not right, nor wrong.

I'll agree Scripture is the source for those things. But you don't make stuff up when Scripture is silent on the issue, Gershom. We have instances of burial in the Scripture, that is correct. But I don't remember one of the commandments being "Thou shalt bury the dead." Why limit those options, when Scripture is silent?


LOL! But scripture isn't silent on the issue! You admit that yourself. In fact, it is overwhelmingly in favor of burial. You agree that the Bible is the source for these things, but advise otherwise in saying it doesn't matter.

And who is making stuff up???? I am advising people to look to the Bible where the scale tips over in favor of burial.

It just befuddles me how Christians want a "thou shalt not" in order to justify their behavior and choices in life (and death).

Gershom
10-21-2006, 03:06 PM
And I wasn't referring to "church government" per se. Tradition does not equal Scripture. End of story.
Again, when you think biblically you will find God's way and walk therein. There may be a tradition of cremation, but you'll not find it in scripture. End of story.

Joshua Rhodes
10-21-2006, 03:13 PM
LOL! But scripture isn't silent on the issue! You admit that yourself. In fact, it is overwhelmingly in favor of burial. You agree that the Bible is the source for these things, but advise otherwise in saying it doesn't matter.

And who is making stuff up???? I am advising people to look to the Bible where the scale tips over in favor of burial.

It just befuddles me how Christians want a "thou shalt not" in order to justify their behavior and choices in life (and death).

I didn't say you made anything up. Reread Gershom, and calm down. And I didn't ask for a "Thou shalt not" either... it was a "Thou shalt". :thumbs:

This isn't worth arguing over, to me at least. The OP cremated her husband, per his wishes. I don't believe there was anything wrong with it, because God can raise him up again regardless of how his physical body was destroyed (whether immediately, or over years). I'm not justifying anything, it's just that my faith in God moves beyond the box of burial/cremation.

The tradition of burial is not the issue. The issue is whether or not cremation is a sinful option. It is not. I will be buried, as is the custom of my family, and it is why I buried my stillborn daughter. But I will not persecute, preach to, vilify or bully someone who has chosen this method of funeral.

Take care, Gershom. This is my last post on the subject.

Gershom
10-21-2006, 03:39 PM
I didn't say you made anything up. Reread Gershom, and calm down. And I didn't ask for a "Thou shalt not" either... it was a "Thou shalt". :thumbs:

This isn't worth arguing over, to me at least. The OP cremated her husband, per his wishes. I don't believe there was anything wrong with it, because God can raise him up again regardless of how his physical body was destroyed (whether immediately, or over years). I'm not justifying anything, it's just that my faith in God moves beyond the box of burial/cremation.

The tradition of burial is not the issue. The issue is whether or not cremation is a sinful option. It is not. I will be buried, as is the custom of my family, and it is why I buried my stillborn daughter. But I will not persecute, preach to, vilify or bully someone who has chosen this method of funeral.

Take care, Gershom. This is my last post on the subject.

I am not persecuting or bullying anyone either. I'm simply pointing to the Word. I believe that is the best advice anyone could give. The Bible clearly points to burial as being the way to lay a body to rest. And, like you, I will be buried just as my 20 year old son was buried three years ago.

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 03:42 PM
Not sure what this has to do with burial vs cremation, or how it would play in favor of cremation. ???

It shows that your statement about the Bible being only
pro-burial is incorrect. My Scriptural argument blew your
'claims to be scriptural' argument right out of the water.

Gershom: //If someone were to ask for guidance in how to lay a body to rest, whether cremation or burial, I'd point them to scripture (which is our ultimate source for all things pertaining to life and death) where the evidence is overwhelming that burial is the way to go - the proper method, practiced by GOD Himself.//

Your bet has been cast. I match your bet. I CALL.

John of Japan: // I'd love to go up in a Mustang, myself!//

Reminds me of a joke. The first person comments to a second
person at the funeral of a rich Texas Oilman. The Oilman is
being buried with His Stetson Hat on, his chaps, his spurs,
he is sitting at the seat of a Lincon convertable. Sez the
person #1: "NOW THAT'S LIVIN' " :)

Gershom
10-21-2006, 03:51 PM
It shows that your statement about the Bible being only
pro-burial is incorrect. My Scriptural argument blew your
'claims to be scriptural' argument right out of the water.

Gershom: //If someone were to ask for guidance in how to lay a body to rest, whether cremation or burial, I'd point them to scripture (which is our ultimate source for all things pertaining to life and death) where the evidence is overwhelming that burial is the way to go - the proper method, practiced by GOD Himself.//

Your bet has been cast. I match your bet. I CALL.

John of Japan: // I'd love to go up in a Mustang, myself!//

Reminds me of a joke. The first person comments to a second
person at the funeral of a rich Texas Oilman. The Oilman is
being buried with His Stetson Hat on, his chaps, his spurs,
he is sitting at the seat of a Lincon convertable. Sez the
person #1: "NOW THAT'S LIVIN' " :)

Please. Your reference to Elijah's being called up blows my argument for burial out of the water? LOL. C'mon, Ed. Surely you jest. That's funny.

Diggin in da Word
10-21-2006, 03:58 PM
Why... don't you see it, Gershom? According to Ed's statement the Christian is not supposed to be buried or cremated...

... His loved ones are to strap him to a light vehicle and leave it in the path of a tornado. :laugh:

Marcia
10-21-2006, 04:23 PM
I don't think the issue now is, "Is cremation a sin?" But just because it's not a sin does not mean it's the best thing to do.

And just because the body naturally goes back to the earth, does not mean cremation is the best thing to do rather than burial. Setting aside the OP question (which I already addressed by saying she was only following her husband's wishes and so that's that), we still have the issue of cremation being the deliberate destruction of the body.

Our bodies do matter. God created the human body; he made it the way he did for a reason. It sets us apart very much from the animal world. No matter how old or sick the person may have been in life, cremation is the deliberate destruction of the body. So I think when we have the choice, is it the wiser choice?

Cremation was associated with pagan rites
http://www.answers.com/topic/cremation (http://www.answers.com/topic/cremation)
Disposing of a corpse by burning. In the ancient world cremation took place on an open pyre. It was practiced by the Greeks (who considered it suitable for heroes and war dead) and the Romans (among whom it became a status symbol). The pagan Scandinavians also cremated their dead. In India the custom is very ancient. In some Asian countries only certain people may be cremated (e.g., high lamas in the Tibet Autonomous Region of China). Christianity opposed cremation, and it became rare in Europe after AD 1000 except under extreme circumstances, such as that brought on by the (http://www.answers.com/topic/cremation)Black Death (http://www.answers.com/topic/black-death). The practice reemerged in the late 19th century and was eventually accepted by both Protestants and Roman Catholics.
(http://www.answers.com/topic/cremation)

Even though we have liberty to cremate, does that mean it's the best example to the world?
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Cor 6.19,20

I realize the passage above is speaking of when one is alive, but does the body cease to belong to God at death? Being buried is a witness to the hope of the resurrection of the body promised by the Lord and given as an example of by Jesus Christ.

rbell
10-21-2006, 04:52 PM
Lots of sidetracking going on in some of the replies from pro-cremators in how God has the power to resurrect a pile of ashes; how a burial should be followed to the mark, etc. But the point is:

God's people did not practice cremation.

God's people practiced polygamy and slavery, but we don't imitate that.

Difference between historical account and biblical command.

The NT reminds us that we're in a "jar of clay." We should treat the body with respect because it is God's creation...but nowhere in scripture is cremation described as disrespectful to God's creation.

I do want to commend folks who disagree with me such as Gershom and DITW...I appreciate you guys handling your views in a sensitive matter in relating your viewpoints to the OP. You were gentle and sensitive with your wording and statements. I appreciate the care you took.

I'll probably bow out here, as we've all fired every round we have, and our spiritual gift of stubbornness is shining strong. :laugh: Peace to ya'll.

Marcia
10-21-2006, 05:39 PM
The NT reminds us that we're in a "jar of clay." We should treat the body with respect because it is God's creation...but nowhere in scripture is cremation described as disrespectful to God's creation.


And some do believe that cremation is disrespect to the body since it is purposeful, delibertate destruction of the body.

I do want to commend folks who disagree with me such as Gershom and DITW...I appreciate you guys handling your views in a sensitive matter in relating your viewpoints to the OP. You were gentle and sensitive with your wording and statements. I appreciate the care you took.

And not me?? :tear:

Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-21-2006, 05:45 PM
you are right, I guess God did not want the body of Elijah to decay since God took him. So the question I am asking is that if Elijah was taken by God, could it possibly be that God does not want our bodies to be burned? His love for Elijah was clear. :praying:

Jim1999
10-21-2006, 06:33 PM
If God does not want our bodies to be burned, why does the body break down into ashes? It is only a question of time. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, from earth we came and to earth we return.

Cheers,

Jim

John of Japan
10-21-2006, 07:40 PM
LOL! But scripture isn't silent on the issue! You admit that yourself. In fact, it is overwhelmingly in favor of burial. You agree that the Bible is the source for these things, but advise otherwise in saying it doesn't matter.

And who is making stuff up???? I am advising people to look to the Bible where the scale tips over in favor of burial.

It just befuddles me how Christians want a "thou shalt not" in order to justify their behavior and choices in life (and death).
The proper term for what you are talking about is "interment," not burial. The Japanese bury the ashes of their loved ones after cremation. How do you know that was not done in the Bible? You don't. We know little about the culture of those days.

Jim1999
10-21-2006, 08:25 PM
If burial is mandated in the Bible, why wasn't jesus "buried"? He was entombed. A large cavety closed over by a huge rounded rock with a flat edge. This was someone's elses grave, so it must have been planned ahead.

Cheers,

Jim

Gershom
10-21-2006, 09:22 PM
The proper term for what you are talking about is "interment," not burial.

The proper term is burial, just as the Bible says. Nevertheless, the two have similar meanings so I don't know what your beef is here.

The Japanese bury the ashes of their loved ones after cremation. How do you know that was not done in the Bible? You don't. We know little about the culture of those days.
I know what the Bible says, and it does not say God's people were cremated. It does say, however, that they were buried. So, when someone asks how to care for someone who has died, I would recommend burial.

Helen
10-21-2006, 09:38 PM
If cremation is a problem because it is 'deliberate destruction of the body', then why don't Christians, at least, demand mummification?

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 09:45 PM
Gershom: //And who is making stuff up???? I am advising people to look to the Bible where the scale tips over in favor of burial.//

Use bigger letters, bigger letters are more true than small letters :)

Please give the scriptures I should use in my will.
I want my ashes to be buried.
Before I pay $10,000 for a funeral, I want HARD SCRIPTURE
evidence. I'd rather my family just pay $2000 for a party
and $600 for a cremation.

What part of my present human body does GOD need to make
my glorified eternal body?

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 10:14 PM
If burial is mandated in the Bible, why wasn't jesus "buried"? He was entombed. A large cavety closed over by a huge rounded rock with a flat edge. This was someone's elses grave, so it must have been planned ahead.

Cheers,

Jim

That was burial for them.

Gershom
10-21-2006, 10:28 PM
Please give the scriptures I should use in my will.
I want my ashes to be buried.
Before I pay $10,000 for a funeral, I want HARD SCRIPTURE
evidence. I'd rather my family just pay $2000 for a party
and $600 for a cremation.

GENESIS 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

GENESIS 23:19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah before Mamre: the same [is] Hebron in the land of Canaan.

GENESIS 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

GENESIS 25:10 The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

GENESIS 35:8 But Deborah Rebekah's nurse died, and she was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and the name of it was called Allonbachuth.

GENESIS 35:19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which [is] Bethlehem.

GENESIS 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, [being] old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

GENESIS 48:7 And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of Canaan in the way, when yet [there was] but a little way to come unto Ephrath: and I buried her there in the way of Ephrath; the same [is] Bethlehem.

GENESIS 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

GENESIS 50:13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.

GENESIS 50:14 And Joseph returned into Egypt, he, and his brethren, and all that went up with him to bury his father, after he had buried his father.

NUMBERS 20:1 Then came the children of Israel, [even] the whole congregation, into the desert of Zin in the first month: and the people abode in Kadesh; and Miriam died there, and was buried there.

DEUTERONOMY 10:6 And the children of Israel took their journey from Beeroth of the children of Jaakan to Mosera: there Aaron died, and there he was buried; and Eleazar his son ministered in the priest's office in his stead.

DEUTERONOMY 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

JOSHUA 24:30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathserah, which [is] in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of Gaash.

JOSHUA 24:32 And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for an hundred pieces of silver: and it became the inheritance of the children of Joseph.

JOSHUA 24:33 And Eleazar the son of Aaron died; and they buried him in a hill [that pertained to] Phinehas his son, which was given him in mount Ephraim.

JUDGES 2:9 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash.

JUDGES 8:32 And Gideon the son of Joash died in a good old age, and was buried in the sepulchre of Joash his father, in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

JUDGES 10:2 And he judged Israel twenty and three years, and died, and was buried in Shamir.

JUDGES 10:5 And Jair died, and was buried in Camon.

JUDGES 12:7 And Jephthah judged Israel six years. Then died Jephthah the Gileadite, and was buried in [one of] the cities of Gilead.

JUDGES 12:10 Then died Ibzan, and was buried at Bethlehem.

JUDGES 12:12 And Elon the Zebulonite died, and was buried in Aijalon in the country of Zebulun.

JUDGES 12:15 And Abdon the son of Hillel the Pirathonite died, and was buried in Pirathon in the land of Ephraim, in the mount of the Amalekites.

JUDGES 16:31 Then his brethren and all the house of his father came down, and took him, and brought [him] up, and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the buryingplace of Manoah his father. And he judged Israel twenty years.

RUTH 1:17 Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, [if ought] but death part thee and me.

1SAMUEL 25:1 And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran.

1SAMUEL 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

1SAMUEL 31:13 And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.

2SAMUEL 2:4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, [That] the men of Jabeshgilead [were they] that buried Saul.

2SAMUEL 2:5 And David sent messengers unto the men of Jabeshgilead, and said unto them, Blessed [be] ye of the LORD, that ye have shewed this kindness unto your lord, [even] unto Saul, and have buried him.

2SAMUEL 2:32 And they took up Asahel, and buried him in the sepulchre of his father, which [was in] Bethlehem. And Joab and his men went all night, and they came to Hebron at break of day.

2SAMUEL 3:32 And they buried Abner in Hebron: and the king lifted up his voice, and wept at the grave of Abner; and all the people wept.

2SAMUEL 4:12 And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged [them] up over the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ishbosheth, and buried [it] in the sepulchre of Abner in Hebron.

2SAMUEL 17:23 And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled [his] ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father.

2SAMUEL 19:37 Let thy servant, I pray thee, turn back again, that I may die in mine own city, [and be buried] by the grave of my father and of my mother. But behold thy servant Chimham; let him go over with my lord the king; and do to him what shall seem good unto thee.

2SAMUEL 21:14 And the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son buried they in the country of Benjamin in Zelah, in the sepulchre of Kish his father: and they performed all that the king commanded. And after that God was intreated for the land.

1KINGS 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1KINGS 2:34 So Benaiah the son of Jehoiada went up, and fell upon him, and slew him: and he was buried in his own house in the wilderness.

1KINGS 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1KINGS 13:31 And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God [is] buried; lay my bones beside his bones:

1KINGS 14:18 And they buried him; and all Israel mourned for him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by the hand of his servant Ahijah the prophet.

1KINGS 14:31 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name [was] Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

1KINGS 15:8 And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

1KINGS 15:24 And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.

1KINGS 16:6 So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah: and Elah his son reigned in his stead.

1KINGS 16:28 So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria: and Ahab his son reigned in his stead.

1KINGS 22:37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria.

1KINGS 22:50 And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.


cont'd...

Gershom
10-21-2006, 10:29 PM
2KINGS 8:24 And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 9:28 And his servants carried him in a chariot to Jerusalem, and buried him in his sepulchre with his fathers in the city of David.

2KINGS 10:35 And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria. And Jehoahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 12:21 For Jozachar the son of Shimeath, and Jehozabad the son of Shomer, his servants, smote him, and he died; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David: and Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 13:9 And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria: and Joash his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 13:13 And Joash slept with his fathers; and Jeroboam sat upon his throne: and Joash was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel.

2KINGS 13:20 And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.

2KINGS 14:16 And Jehoash slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 14:20 And they brought him on horses: and he was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David.

2KINGS 15:7 So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 15:38 And Jotham slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 16:20 And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 21:18 And Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 21:26 And he was buried in his sepulchre in the garden of Uzza: and Josiah his son reigned in his stead.

2KINGS 23:30 And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem, and buried him in his own sepulchre. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father's stead.

1CHRONICLES 10:12 They arose, all the valiant men, and took away the body of Saul, and the bodies of his sons, and brought them to Jabesh, and buried their bones under the oak in Jabesh, and fasted seven days.

2CHRONICLES 9:31 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 12:16 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 14:1 So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years.

2CHRONICLES 16:14 And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds [of spices] prepared by the apothecaries' art: and they made a very great burning for him.

2CHRONICLES 21:1 Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 21:20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.

2CHRONICLES 22:9 And he sought Ahaziah: and they caught him, (for he was hid in Samaria,) and brought him to Jehu: and when they had slain him, they buried him: Because, said they, he [is] the son of Jehoshaphat, who sought the LORD with all his heart. So the house of Ahaziah had no power to keep still the kingdom.

2CHRONICLES 24:16 And they buried him in the city of David among the kings, because he had done good in Israel, both toward God, and toward his house.

2CHRONICLES 24:25 And when they were departed from him, (for they left him in great diseases,) his own servants conspired against him for the blood of the sons of Jehoiada the priest, and slew him on his bed, and he died: and they buried him in the city of David, but they buried him not in the sepulchres of the kings.

2CHRONICLES 25:28 And they brought him upon horses, and buried him with his fathers in the city of Judah.

2CHRONICLES 26:23 So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which [belonged] to the kings; for they said, He [is] a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 27:9 And Jotham slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 28:27 And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city, [even] in Jerusalem: but they brought him not into the sepulchres of the kings of Israel: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 32:33 And Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the chiefest of the sepulchres of the sons of David: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honour at his death. And Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 33:20 So Manasseh slept with his fathers, and they buried him in his own house: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.

2CHRONICLES 35:24 His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in [one of] the sepulchres of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.

JOB 27:15 Those that remain of him shall be buried in death: and his widows shall not weep.

ECCLESIASTES 8:10 And so I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of the holy, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done: this [is] also vanity.

JEREMIAH 8:2 And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.

JEREMIAH 16:4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; [but] they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

JEREMIAH 16:6 Both the great and the small shall die in this land: they shall not be buried, neither shall [men] lament for them, nor cut themselves, nor make themselves bald for them:

JEREMIAH 20:6 And thou, Pashur, and all that dwell in thine house shall go into captivity: and thou shalt come to Babylon, and there thou shalt die, and shalt be buried there, thou, and all thy friends, to whom thou hast prophesied lies.

JEREMIAH 22:19 He shall be buried with the burial of an ass, drawn and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem.

JEREMIAH 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

EZEKIEL 39:15 And the passengers [that] pass through the land, when [any] seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

MATTHEW 14:12 And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus.

LUKE 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

ACTS 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

ACTS 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him].

ACTS 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.

ACTS 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

1CORINTHIANS 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

Gershom
10-21-2006, 10:30 PM
What part of my present human body does GOD need to make
my glorified eternal body?

What God can do is not the issue.

Jim1999
10-21-2006, 10:44 PM
I love when people waste space typing out a host of verses as if none of us have Bibles........

Now, the most common form of burial in the Middle East was either a hole in the ground, a cavern for the rich, or stones piled over a body to delay decay because of the extreme heat and decomposition was considered to be a disgrace to the deceased.

The cavernous tomb was the exception and not the rule.

Cheers,

Jim

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 10:50 PM
Not to mention the words of Job;

Job 14:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Job&chapter=14&verse=13&version=kjv)¶O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Mat 8:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=8&verse=22&version=kjv)But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Diggin in da Word
10-21-2006, 10:53 PM
Nevertheless, Jim...

Nowhere in Scripture can it be found that God's people were cremated. I believe as Marcia wrote earlier,

It is willfully destroying the Body. Gershom was asked to produce Scripture dealing with God's people being buried, can you produce any to show we should be cremated before burial?

I didn't notice the men in Acts cremated Ananias or Sapphira before burial.

And Jesus was buried. The Word of God says He was. And we are commanded to preach it as a burial.

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 10:59 PM
Joh 19:40 (KJV1611 Edition):
Then tooke they the body of Iesus, & wound
it in linnen clothes, with the spices,
as the maner of the Iewes is to burie:

Do you intend to be buried in the manner of the Jews?

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 11:02 PM
Amos, chapter 2



1: Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 11:03 PM
What God can do is not the issue.

I respectfully disagree.

What God can do is the issue.

Rev 20:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the sea gaue vp the dead which were in it: ...

Needless to say, the molecules making up the
DNA are disolved into the sea and throughly mixed.

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 11:06 PM
Amos, chapter 2



1: Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:Why are bones kept?

Because flesh rots fast; the bones rot slower.

How many human cells does it take for God to reconstruct
the soul of a person?

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Amos, chapter 2



1: Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:
Why are bones kept?

Because flesh rots fast; the bones rot slower.

How many human cells does it take for God to reconstruct
the soul of a person?
Resurrection is not what we talking about. We talking about the temple of God, and the destruction of it.
God will have no problem with the resurrection regardless.

2 Corinthians, chapter 6


"16": And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jim1999
10-21-2006, 11:11 PM
Can you show me one scripture that says to drive a motorcar? Just one, please..Plenty talk about driving an ass, an ox, but not one a motorcar, yet, I should think you don't think twice of driving your motorcar.

No one answered my statement before about the body decaying in short order, so why does it matter..burial and rot in time; cremation..and ashes in a few hours? James 3:4 (MV)

Cheers,

Jim

Helen
10-21-2006, 11:16 PM
Can you show me one scripture that says to drive a motorcar? Just one, please..Plenty talk about driving an ass, an ox, but not one a motorcar, yet, I should think you don't think twice of driving your motorcar. (MV)

Cheers,

Jim

Don't shoot, but weren't the early believers all in one Accord? I'm hoping they took turns.... (didn't find a smilie with a shield, or I would have used it)

Diggin in da Word
10-21-2006, 11:17 PM
This thread is not about motorcars. You may find a thread about motorcars in the sports section. We are talking cremation vs burial here.

Isn't cremating willfully destroying a body?

True, the body will decay over time, but it is not man destroying that body in that case, but natural decay.

Are we disobeying God's Holy Word if we willfully destroy a body?

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 11:20 PM
How do you feel about burning the temple of God?

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 11:21 PM
What becomes of those Christian Martyrs where
the Pagan tormentors burned their bodies as a
postmortem insult -- will they be in the resurrection
of the just (AKA: First Resurreciton)?

Jim1999
10-21-2006, 11:22 PM
We are talking about using the invention of a crematorium; a modern invention. I love modernity. That is the relation of the motorcar and the buggy...we do evolve you know as do customs.

If the physical body is so important, what do we do with those soldiers who were blown into oblivion in wars? Don't be so silly and make religion look assinine!!!!

Cheers,

Jim

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 11:26 PM
Why do we have so many funerals and burials, I wonder. Is the vast majority wrong and a few right or could it be that we do have scripture for burial but none for cremation except where God condemned it in Amos: 2:2

Joshua Rhodes
10-21-2006, 11:30 PM
Why do we have so many funerals and burials, I wonder.

Cremated people often have funerals as well, some are even open casket prior to the cremation.

Joshua Rhodes
10-21-2006, 11:35 PM
Oops. I wasn't going to post in here again. I was reading along and posted before I remembered. Sorry. :BangHead:

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 11:39 PM
How many of those you saw Joshua?

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 11:40 PM
Oops. I wasn't going to post in here again. I was reading along and posted before I remembered. Sorry. :BangHead:
You are forgiven, Brother Joshua Rhodes.
We just don't need your LEVEL HEADEDness here:tonofbricks:

Jim1999
10-21-2006, 11:42 PM
I like that, Ed...Joshua is just too brilliant for us old timers.........:applause:

Cheers,

Jim

Ed Edwards
10-21-2006, 11:47 PM
Brother Bob speaking of cremation: // ... God condemned it in Amos: 2:2."

Amos 2:1-2 (KJV1611 Edition):
Thus sayth the Lord, For three transgressions of Moab,
and for foure, I wil not turne away the punishment thereof,
because hee burnt the bones of the King of Edom into lime.
2 But I will send a fire vpon Moab, and it shall deuoure
the palaces of Kerioth, and Moab shall die with tumult,
with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:

Uh, er, Moab is damned because they burn the
King of Edom (against the King's wishes)
NOT Moab is damned because they
creamated the King of Edom. This verse doesn't condemn
me being creamated, if I wish.

Marcia
10-21-2006, 11:49 PM
If cremation is a problem because it is 'deliberate destruction of the body', then why don't Christians, at least, demand mummification?

I think there is a big difference between deliberate destruction of the body and the natural degeneration of the body after death, a process we can't really control. It's not that the body needs to be preserved, it's just that being buried, when we have the choice, can be a sign of the knowledge that we will be bodily resurrected.

I'm not saying the Bible mandates it or that it is a sin to cremate, but am just trying to point out the reasons for burial over cremation using the Bible and biblical principles.

I also think the burial done at the time was in opposition to the burning of bodies practiced by some pagans. Cremation, I beileve, has been traditionally not practiced by Jews, at least the Orthodox Jews.

It just seems that the Gnostic/New Age denigration of the body has been creeping into the church sometimes.

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 11:57 PM
Brother Bob speaking of cremation: // ... God condemned it in Amos: 2:2."

Amos 2:1-2 (KJV1611 Edition):
Thus sayth the Lord, For three transgressions of Moab,
and for foure, I wil not turne away the punishment thereof,
because hee burnt the bones of the King of Edom into lime.
2 But I will send a fire vpon Moab, and it shall deuoure
the palaces of Kerioth, and Moab shall die with tumult,
with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:

Uh, er, Moab is damned because they burn the
King of Edom (against the King's wishes)
NOT Moab is damned because they
creamated the King of Edom. This verse doesn't condemn
me being creamated, if I wish.


Seems it must of been against the Lord's wishes also, especially burning his bones into lime. Wonder why it didn't just say they killed him? Wonder why the Lord was disturbed they had actually burned his bones instead of just they have killed him? I wonder!

Maybe you are right but for some reason the Lord felt it necessary to tell us about they had burned his bones into lime.

Wonder why we have to try to hunt to find where they actually burned bodies in the scriptures? Wonder why all the scriptures on a burial if they had the knowledge way back when, I wonder?

Jim1999
10-22-2006, 12:02 AM
Well, the Jews also bury the same day or at most the day after death. Why do Christians et al go three days before burial?

The chemical process of the body breaking down takes but a matter of hours to start. Modernism also uses a chemical to preserve the body for viewing purposes. So, the blood is all drained from the body........that's a lot of body already gone.

We are running out of land for burials in a lot of places, such as the UK and Holland...I think Holland has a ten year's in the ground policy and then the ground is reused.

Our local cemetary is almost full, but we have a crypt for the ashes with name plates and all. How much more dignity do we need?

Cheers,

Jim

Brother Bob
10-22-2006, 12:05 AM
Maybe the Lord will come back before then.

rbell
10-22-2006, 12:31 AM
This thread is not about motorcars. You may find a thread about motorcars in the sports section. We are talking cremation vs burial here.

Isn't cremating willfully destroying a body?

True, the body will decay over time, but it is not man destroying that body in that case, but natural decay.

Are we disobeying God's Holy Word if we willfully destroy a body?

Now DITW, you're being silly with your eisegesis. Quit equating cremation with wanton disregard for God's Word.

LeBuick
10-22-2006, 12:37 AM
What becomes of those Christian Martyrs where
the Pagan tormentors burned their bodies as a
postmortem insult -- will they be in the resurrection
of the just (AKA: First Resurreciton)?

God stuck them under the altar. Not sure what he plans to do with um but I'm sure it'll be good... :laugh: :laugh:

Diggin in da Word
10-22-2006, 12:40 AM
No eisegesis at all, rbell.

The Word of God tells us:

1 Corinthians 3:17 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The Word 'defile' in that verse is translated to corrupt or destroy.
So the question is a valid one. If one cremates a body, thereby destroying it, are they in direct disobedience of God's Word?

rbell
10-22-2006, 12:47 AM
out of context.

1 cor. 3 is about divisions in the church.

But if you want to play the out of context game, 1 cor. 3:13 says, "It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work." I could use that out-of context reference to support cremation...but I won't 'cause that's silly.:laugh:

Gershom
10-22-2006, 01:31 PM
I love when people waste space typing out a host of verses as if none of us have Bibles........

Cheers,

Jim

If you have been following along, you'd see that Ed requested Scripture that he should use in his will. I posted some. Sorry if that ruffles your feathers. I know the evidence is overwhelming when it comes to laying a body to rest, but you'll be okay.

Jim1999
10-22-2006, 01:51 PM
You act as if no one knows the scriptures. Just list the references. Let the people look them up if they don't know them.

At any rate, the verses quoted do not support burial in the ground anymore than they decry cremation....a more economic form of disposal.

Cheers,

Jim

Gershom
10-22-2006, 02:27 PM
You act as if no one knows the scriptures. Just list the references. Let the people look them up if they don't know them.

At any rate, the verses quoted do not support burial in the ground anymore than they decry cremation....a more economic form of disposal.

Cheers,

Jim

I'll post Scriptures as I please, thank you. If you can't see that these Scriptures support burial, you'd better find yourself a new eye doctor.

Diggin in da Word
10-22-2006, 03:35 PM
I'll post Scriptures as I please, thank you. If you can't see that these Scriptures support burial, you'd better find yourself a new eye doctor.
Bravo, Gershom!

Brother Bob
10-22-2006, 04:25 PM
1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Hope of Glory
10-23-2006, 01:41 PM
Now I see the light!

Since he wanted to be cremated, he wasn't really, really, really, really saved, truly.

Brother Bob
10-23-2006, 08:52 PM
Now I see the light!

Since he wanted to be cremated, he wasn't really, really, really, really saved, truly.

Huh??????????????????????????

Mary Diana Lynn Harper
10-29-2006, 03:46 PM
No one knows weather creamation is right or wrong, I guess there is no right or wrong about it. I guess it is up to each individual as to their preferences of being buried or creamated. I was hoping to get more out of this than causing a rebellion. I think my husband was saved. Each individual knows in their own heart if they are saved or not. But we never really talked about it. Although he was brought up with both grandfathers as preachers, I guess no one ever knows. Even the best person in the world may not be saved. It is like when the young rich person asked Jesus :" What must I do to be saved?" and Jesus told him, "sell all you have and give to the poor and follow me'" with that the young man left heavy hearted, because he owned much. Than the response that Jesus had was "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to Heaven" or thereabout is what was said in the Bible, so know I am right back where I started. John was an acoholic but he had the heart of gold. In the end, he was reunited with all his children before he passed on to eternity. I guess that is all that has to be said. :tear: I know it is too late but maybe he was sanctified through my belief in Christ and God. I believed in our love for each other and the love I had for God did not allow me to let go. So maybe my love for him and God helped him make it through even though he was creamated. I guess it is time I moved on. Love for everyone who responded. Diana

Amy.G
10-29-2006, 03:58 PM
Diana, I have read the posts on this thread and found many to be insensitive to your feelings as if you were not able to read them. I am sorry for that and hope that you will focus on God's love for you and your husband. I believe that a saved person is at home with the Lord no matter how the body is buried. He is able to raise up any saint with only His word. I pray for your peace in this matter.
With Christian love, :1_grouphug:
Amy

2BHizown
10-29-2006, 05:28 PM
When the right or wrong of a thing is not specific in scripture then one is free to go with their conscience.

Job said: 'For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand in the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God!' Job 19:25,26

Think of all the christians that were eaten by lions, drowned in the sea and such! On that last day our God will still call them forth to Himself and He knows where every atom of flesh and bone are, just as He did before they were formed by Him!

Burial of whatever type, done with honor to your loved one is acceptable to God. He knows our every thought and He knows your desire is to be honorable to your husband!