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gekko
12-16-2006, 07:40 PM
2 Corinthians 5:8 is the specific verse -- i'll let you look the passage up in context in your own version of scripture.
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where in of all scripture does it say that if we're absent from the body that we are immediately present with the Lord?

Amy.G
12-16-2006, 07:46 PM
2 Corinthians 5:8 is the specific verse -- i'll let you look the passage up in context in your own version of scripture.
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where in of all scripture does it say that if we're absent from the body that we are immediately present with the Lord?
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise."

Scarlett O.
12-16-2006, 11:49 PM
2 Corinthians 5:8.....a very oft misquoted verse. How many times have you heard someone say, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."? They only quote half of the sentence and change one word, yet those two subtle errors completely destroy the meaning of the verse and context of the passage.

The whole point of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 is to acknowledge that while this world is not our home and heaven is our home, we are to find contentment in either state and strive our hardest to please God in either state.

Verse 8 says, "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." "And" does not mean "is"

This does not directly declare that death brings an immediate state of being into the presence of God, but it does not deny it either. The reason that this verse can't be concrete evidence of either position is because that is not the message it is addressing.

The whole point of the message is in the next verse...verse 9. "So we make it our goal to please Him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it."

I would lay claim to Amy G.'s verse about Jesus' quote to the dying thief for a scriptural foundation of immediately being in God's presence upon death. But I am not 100% certain either way.

Read the whole passage in Corinthians to see that it is not addressing the timing of our being brought into God's presence, but that we will eventually get there and that we should not get hung up about when, but how we live in the meantime.

J. Jump
12-17-2006, 09:12 AM
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise."

I know you are going to jump all over my case because I'm disagreeing with you, but this is not a good verse to quote to "prove" the OP point. Reading it in English does give the illusion that it is saying that today the thief is going to be with Jesus in paradise.

However the comma that creates that illusion was not in there and comma comes from errant men that translated Scriptures.

Based on the context of the passage the today belongs with I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise. The paradise is the kingdom of Christ, which is what the thief asked about. We are still awaiting the coming of that paradise, but when that paradise begins the thief will be there.

Claudia_T
12-17-2006, 09:38 AM
Very good, Scarlett and Jump, Im surprised.

Claudia_T
12-17-2006, 09:40 AM
This is from a book called "Bible Readings for the Home" which is an very old non-copyrighted book. It just basically gives Bible verses and explains...

Absent from the Body
Upon what subject does Paul treat in 2 Cor. 5:1-8?
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Cor. 5:1.
NOTE. - In this verse the present and future condition of the believer is spoken of .
While we are here "in our earthly house," in "this tabernacle," that is in this present mortal state, what is our condition?
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven." "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." 2 Cor. 5:2, 4.
Where else does the apostle express the same fact?
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Rom. 8:22.
How many conditions, or states of being, does the apostle bring to view?
Three: First, a positive state in this present life clothed with "our earthly house" (2 Cor. 5:1.), "this tabernacle" (2 Cor. 5:4); second, a negative state, called in verse 3 "unclothed" or "naked," that is, when in death, in the grave; third, another positive condition, when mortality is swallowed up of life, when we are clothed upon with our house from heaven (verses 2, 4).
Which one of these conditions did the apostle wait for and desire?
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven." 2 Cor. 5:2.
What disclaimer does he utter concerning the second or middle state?
"Not for that we would be unclothed." 2 Cor. 5:4.
How is it proved that Paul looked forward to the resurrection, when he expressed a desire to be clothed upon with the house from heaven?
By the parallel text in Rom. 8:23: "And not only thy, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
When is the body to be redeemed?
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel. and with the trump of God; and dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16. See Phil. 3:20, 21.
When is mortality to be swallowed up of life?
"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor. 15:51-53.
NOTE.- To be "naked," or "unclothed," must refer to one's condition in death. But how can it be said that one is unclothed, if he is a conscious, disembodied spirit, instantly enters the heavenly abode at death? It can be plainly seen that if an immortal soul is the "house from heaven," when the "earthly" house, the body, has been redeemed, an individual would have two houses, one more than he would have occasion for. Then again, if the second house is the supposed immortal soul, and one had it now in possession in his body, it could not be true that it is, "eternal in the heavens." On the whole it is evident that the apostle is here treating of the future redeemed body.
If the house from heaven is the future redeemed immortal body, how can it be said that, "we have" it?
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 John 5:11. Hence, "he that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12.
When, only, is a person fitted to be present with the Lord?
Not till he is redeemed from all that is mortal and corruptible. 1 Cor. 15:50; 1 Thess. 4:17.
To what condition, then, does the apostle refer by the words (2 Cor. 5:6), "At home in the body?"
To the first condition spoken of in verse 1.
To what condition does he refer by the expression, "To be present with the Lord?"
To the third condition. They are not necessarily immediately connected. Some time may elapse between them, as we have shown.

BobRyan
12-17-2006, 09:46 AM
2 Corinthians 5:8 is the specific verse -- i'll let you look the passage up in context in your own version of scripture.
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where in of all scripture does it say that if we're absent from the body that we are immediately present with the Lord?

Since apparently nobody eslse is going to take the Urban legend side of this topic -- I will step up to the plate.



And I quote "for TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" "and SO shall we ever be WITH the Lord", "AND we know that we ARE LIKE Him for we shall SEE Him as He IS".

Recall that in Luke 23 when the thief asked about the future "WHEN you come into your kingdom" Jesus turned it around by specifically placing the comma BEFORE the Word "TODAY" in the sentence "truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise". The Greek text is very specific about punctuation and so Jesus wanted to make sure we put the comma exactly where Luke placed it by inspiration.

In Christ,

Bob

J. Jump
12-17-2006, 10:17 AM
The Greek text is very specific about punctuation and so Jesus wanted to make sure we put the comma exactly where Luke placed it by inspiration.

I'm trying to figure out if you are joking here or if you really mean this. Can you provide some resource material that says what you are saying here, because there are numerous Greek scholars that disagree with this statement.

tragic_pizza
12-17-2006, 10:26 AM
Greek had no punctuation. In fact, Greek rarely put spaces between words, if I recall correctly.

And to the OP: so?

Claudia_T
12-17-2006, 10:34 AM
JJ


He said he was posting the Urban Legend side of the topic since nobody else was apparently doing it.

BobRyan
12-17-2006, 10:40 AM
I'm trying to figure out if you are joking here or if you really mean this. Can you provide some resource material that says what you are saying here, because there are numerous Greek scholars that disagree with this statement.

I stand corrected.

It's just that nobody was taking this side of the argument yet -- and I wanted to be the first on this thread to do so.

Bob