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sciencefan
01-18-2007, 10:57 AM
Have you read Heaven by Randy Alcorn?

I just started reading it and I have to say I am not enjoying it.
I mean, I was okay up to the first chapter, but I peeked ahead to where he talks about whether we're going to sleep in heaven, and what-not.

I think my problem is that I have always been more of a Mary than a Martha.
I have never had a problem with the idea of Heaven being a 24/7 worship service.

Alcorn seems to make it out to be more like an Eden make-over... working, eating, sleeping...
It makes me tired just thinking about it.
For the first time in my life, I am dreading dying and going to Heaven.

Have you read the whole book, and maybe you can set my mind at ease about that?

webdog
01-19-2007, 12:43 PM
I loved it. It sounds like you are taking more of an agnostic approach (spirit = good, physical = evil) in dealing with Heaven. It's a place. It's real. And you know what? It will be here on Earth someday. When thinking of a "New Earth", why would we assume it won't have trees, animals, cultures, etc? When you buy a new car, do you expect to receive something without wheels, windshield and steering wheel?
Why does work and eating make you "dread" going to Heaven? You are looking at this through the clouded eyes of the sin nature. This is exactly what Satan wants you to think about Heaven! Finish the book, and pray through it asking God to show you His truths and remove the fears you have.

sciencefan
01-20-2007, 10:31 AM
I loved it. It sounds like you are taking more of an agnostic approach (spirit = good, physical = evil) in dealing with Heaven. It's a place. It's real. And you know what? It will be here on Earth someday. When thinking of a "New Earth", why would we assume it won't have trees, animals, cultures, etc? When you buy a new car, do you expect to receive something without wheels, windshield and steering wheel?
Why does work and eating make you "dread" going to Heaven? You are looking at this through the clouded eyes of the sin nature. This is exactly what Satan wants you to think about Heaven! Finish the book, and pray through it asking God to show you His truths and remove the fears you have.Thank you for your input. :wavey:
You have me figured out all wrong.
I am a born-again, Bible believing, God-worshiping, disciple of Jesus.
Whether Heaven is physical or not does not bother me, but I am of the opinion it will be a different dimension of "physical" than we are familiar with, like a Heavenly physical instead of earthly physical- something we have never experienced before.

In my opinion, it is more appealing to the flesh to say that Heaven will be just like earthly life now.
What does anyone have to give up then?
We can keep our earthly feet planted right here.

I guess Alcorn scared me when he said we would get tired and need sleep.
I'm always exhausted.
I don't find it pleasurable to have things expected of my when I am exhausted.

I may decide to continue to read the book and pray about it as I go.
I will consider your advice on that.
Thank you.

Karen
01-20-2007, 02:01 PM
sciencefan,
I enjoyed a lot of the book. But keep in mind that Alcorn is just expressing an opinion on some things we just don't know.
If we do get "tired" in Heaven, it would be in a completely different way than what we know on Earth and would not be troublesome to us.

I commend him for doing what is not done these days as much as in past generations. Thinking about our real Home. However, that does not mean we need to worry about his opinions. He in many cases is just giving some ideas. He does not have special revelation and could be wrong in many ways.
When you get there, you will be at Home. It will be better than we can imagine now.

sciencefan
01-20-2007, 09:37 PM
sciencefan,
I enjoyed a lot of the book. But keep in mind that Alcorn is just expressing an opinion on some things we just don't know.
If we do get "tired" in Heaven, it would be in a completely different way than what we know on Earth and would not be troublesome to us.

I commend him for doing what is not done these days as much as in past generations. Thinking about our real Home. However, that does not mean we need to worry about his opinions. He in many cases is just giving some ideas. He does not have special revelation and could be wrong in many ways.
When you get there, you will be at Home. It will be better than we can imagine now.Thanks Karen.

webdog
01-21-2007, 03:01 PM
Thank you for your input. :wavey:
You have me figured out all wrong.
I am a born-again, Bible believing, God-worshiping, disciple of Jesus.
Whether Heaven is physical or not does not bother me, but I am of the opinion it will be a different dimension of "physical" than we are familiar with, like a Heavenly physical instead of earthly physical- something we have never experienced before.

In my opinion, it is more appealing to the flesh to say that Heaven will be just like earthly life now.
What does anyone have to give up then?
We can keep our earthly feet planted right here.

I guess Alcorn scared me when he said we would get tired and need sleep.
I'm always exhausted.
I don't find it pleasurable to have things expected of my when I am exhausted.

I may decide to continue to read the book and pray about it as I go.
I will consider your advice on that.
Thank you.
I don't question whether you are a believer or not, but you are equating humans as either material or immaterial, but we are made up of both, and you cannot separate these two. We will never NOT be human. God is preparing a place for us (humans) where He will choose to dwell with US. We know what kind of habitat humans have. Why would glorified humans need an entirely different habitat?

Remember, everything God created, He deemed "good" and "very good". To wipe the slate clean and start over with an all new creation would mean He is powerless to renew (not recreate) what He deemed 'good' that has been tainted by sin. This leaves sin more powerful than God, and God subjected to it. After Jesus rose from the dead in His glorified body, He ate, walked, talked, and I'm sure went to the bathroom! There was nothing about His body that the Bible nor the disciples deemed surreal or un-earthly. Thomas even touched Him...His scars... skin to skin. While I believe we will be totally renewed from sin, we most likely will still recognize each other the way we always have. We will still be male and female. We will just be glorified, living forever!

I also don't see how this desire to be immortal in the bodies we know is a "fleshly" desire. Ecc. 3:11 tells us that all men were created with this immortality (eternity) written on our hearts. We do desire to stay here with our feet "never leaving the earth". If not, we would all be suicidal and would refuse any medical treatment. We also desire to be with the Lord if we are believers. Someday we wil get the best of both!

sciencefan
01-22-2007, 11:04 AM
I don't question whether you are a believer or not, but you are equating humans as either material or immaterial, but we are made up of both, and you cannot separate these two. We will never NOT be human. God is preparing a place for us (humans) where He will choose to dwell with US. We know what kind of habitat humans have. Why would glorified humans need an entirely different habitat?

Remember, everything God created, He deemed "good" and "very good". To wipe the slate clean and start over with an all new creation would mean He is powerless to renew (not recreate) what He deemed 'good' that has been tainted by sin. This leaves sin more powerful than God, and God subjected to it. After Jesus rose from the dead in His glorified body, He ate, walked, talked, and I'm sure went to the bathroom! There was nothing about His body that the Bible nor the disciples deemed surreal or un-earthly. Thomas even touched Him...His scars... skin to skin. While I believe we will be totally renewed from sin, we most likely will still recognize each other the way we always have. We will still be male and female. We will just be glorified, living forever!

I also don't see how this desire to be immortal in the bodies we know is a "fleshly" desire. Ecc. 3:11 tells us that all men were created with this immortality (eternity) written on our hearts. We do desire to stay here with our feet "never leaving the earth". If not, we would all be suicidal and would refuse any medical treatment. We also desire to be with the Lord if we are believers. Someday we wil get the best of both!
Thanks.
I guess I don't like it.

AF Guy N Paradise
01-22-2007, 11:39 AM
I have always been curious about several things concerning Heaven:

* Will sex ever occur?
* Will we be able to eat and enjoy food?
* Will we hang out with our families and friends we knew on Earth?
* Will we enjoy hobbies we liked on earth such as sports, hiking, etc...

So I guess I will just have to wait and find out. It does seem selfish wanting and to be concerned with such fleshly desires.

BTW, I have never even heard of that author or book. What is his background? Liberal, conservative, Baptist?

sciencefan
01-23-2007, 09:51 AM
I have always been curious about several things concerning Heaven:

* Will sex ever occur?
* Will we be able to eat and enjoy food?
* Will we hang out with our families and friends we knew on Earth?
* Will we enjoy hobbies we liked on earth such as sports, hiking, etc...

So I guess I will just have to wait and find out. It does seem selfish wanting and to be concerned with such fleshly desires.

BTW, I have never even heard of that author or book. What is his background? Liberal, conservative, Baptist?I haven't been able to find out anything about the author.
From the first 5 chapters of his book, he seems doctrinally sound.
He holds degrees in theology and Biblical studies, and has taught as an adjunct professor for Multnomah Bible College and Western Seminary in Portland, Ore.

Jesus said in Matt 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Since one of the primary purposes of sex is procreation, and that inside of marriage, I would think that there will be no need for sex.

I do not know about the other things you asked about, except that Lazarus and the rich man still recognized each other after death. (Luke 16)

webdog
01-23-2007, 10:13 AM
I have always been curious about several things concerning Heaven:

* Will sex ever occur?
* Will we be able to eat and enjoy food?
* Will we hang out with our families and friends we knew on Earth?
* Will we enjoy hobbies we liked on earth such as sports, hiking, etc...

So I guess I will just have to wait and find out. It does seem selfish wanting and to be concerned with such fleshly desires.

BTW, I have never even heard of that author or book. What is his background? Liberal, conservative, Baptist?Here's a couple...

http://www.epm.org/randysbio.html
http://www.epm.org/articles/alcornpers.html

The book was a real blessing for me, as I used to have the view we would be floating around strumming harps. To answer you questions from what I think:
1. I have no clue.
2. I believe "yes". After Christ rose from the dead, He had a body and ate with the disciples. "The Angel of God" in the OT (who many beleive to be Christ) ate with Abraham. Isaiah 25:6 states the Lord of Hosts will throw a banquet with the the best food and *gasp* the best wine. If He throws it, I guarantee we will enjoy it.
3. Why wouldn't we? We won't lose our identities. Like the earth, our bodies will be renewed someday from sin, death and decay. We won't be getting entirely new faces and bodies. I'm 6' now with dark blonde hair and green eyes, and I'll most likely have these features then. Something to think about: Say you met your best friend while at your job. If he leaves to find another job, does he cease to be your best friend? You still talk and hang out, but your are no longer business colleagues. I believe the same thing will happen with our spouses / families & friends. While there will be no marriage in Heaven, the title of "marriage partners" will be removed from my wife and I, and "daddy" will be removed from my son and I, but everything else including the love, friendship and closeness will remain.
4. Again, why not? God gives us these things to enjoy. If your child has a room full of toys, when you move into a new house do you throw out eveything your child likes to do? As Dr. Alcorn states, I believe there will even be new games and sports that are yet to be invented! We will be constantly learning for eternity. The idea that once we get to Heaven we will know everything is heretical. We won't be omniscient...we won't be "gods". Only God is omniscient. We remain human beings, albeit forgiven, saved and glorified human beings who won't die.

Karen
01-23-2007, 10:30 AM
I think that many things we do now such as sex will not be carried on in the same manner in Heaven, if they are done. What we do on earth would only be the seed or kernel or tiny glimpse of something much greater in Heaven.

If they are not done, it is not that Heaven will have lack but that it will be filled with other things we cannot imagine.