PDA

View Full Version : Old Regular Baptist (revised)


Pages : 1 [2] 3

Bethelassoc
03-14-2005, 03:25 PM
Bro. Orloff:

Just for reference, the closest ORB church to Rolla would be somewhere in eastern KY or IN. ORBs are located close to the epicenter, KY. This pretty much goes for United Baptists, too. So, you won't find ORB churches vastly spreading out like you do PBs.

I've come to the conclusion that ORBs and UBs are mainly Appalachian concepts with exceptions, of course.

The only ORBs I know west of the River are in AZ and WA. Bro Slone thought there was one called Kentucky church in Tamey(?), MO, but I have yet to find this place. I am interested in finding it, though.

David

P.S. - I was just in your area yesterday, coming back from a wedding in KS.

pil grim
03-14-2005, 05:31 PM
Thank you Bro. James for your comments. This discussion has given me something to think about. I would like to add my own comments to express my beliefs and feelings in relation to both you and Bro. Slone.

Bro. Slone wrote: "...the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation.";

Bro. Reed wrote: "This is in stark contrast to Primitive doctrine. We believe that the truth or the gospel or salvation was and is never presented by God to the non-elect."

Consider the following scriptures along with Bro. Slone's comments: John Ch. 1, Ch 3, "in him was life, and the life was the light of men", "that was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world", "and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil...every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light"; and, Romans Ch 1, "for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen... even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful..."

Bro. Reed wrote: "If Christ had paid for their sins on the cross, in order that salvation may be presented unto them, even for them to refuse, they would not be able to refuse it because our salvation was not something that we can ask for nor turn down once presented to us. There is no need in presenting salvation to those who can not have it."

That, I believe, is correct. Christ carried the sins of God's people to the cross and death, and by rising from the dead, God testified that the sins of his people were put away, and they were freed from the demands of the law. It was by God's grace that He sent His Son to accomplish this for His people, and this hope in the finished work of Christ is what we confess, are baptized into, figuratively depict it as the cause of our one-time spiritual birth by a symbolic one-time water baptism, and figuratively depict it as an ongoing source of our spiritual nourishment by periodically taking the symbolic wine and bread in communion services.

Bro. James, if I were to give advice to a young Christian woman it would be: dress modestly, wear no make-up or jewelry, and let your hair grow long; the inner beauty God has given a woman, a meek and gentle spirit, is more beautiful than what the "world" is wearing; she will be respected and appreciated more that way than any other. I truly believe it.

As far as the Armed Forces and wars are concerned, I once felt the way you do. Now, I do not think I could point a gun at someone and kill them, even for the right to worship God freely. I suspect the Lord has changed my heart, and I do not think I can intentionally harm someone for any reason. If given enough time to think about it, nothing seems like it would be important enough for me to willfully cause harm to another person.

Well, God bless you for your help.

Bro. Mike Orloff

OldRegular
03-14-2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
This is in stark contrast to Primitive doctrine. We believe that the truth or the gospel or salvation was and is never presented by God to the non-elect. If Christ had paid for their sins on the cross, in order that salvation may be presented unto them, even for them to refuse, they would not be able to refuse it because our salvation was not something that we can ask for nor turn down once presented to us. There is no need in presenting salvation to those who can not have it.
What about Scripture such as the following:

Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 28:23-29
23. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Bro. James Reed
03-15-2005, 12:12 AM
Who is to say those Jews were not children of God?

I know of many children of God who will not heed mens' words.

We see them on this board everyday.

If any of us have ever tried to fight against the conviction of the Spirit that God placed within us, say, before being baptized, or before submitting to the ministry, then we've done exactly what those Jews did.

Tell me, why would God present salvation to people knowing that they can not have it?

I agree with the principle, that the non-elect have sent themselves to hell based on their own sins and wickedness through the fall of Adam and their continued sins afterward, unbelief being one of those.

Romans 3:
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid:...

If everyone who ever did not believe was going to hell, then it would be overflowing with all of us Christians. I know of no one who has not experienced unbelief in their lives.

Thankfully, our destination is not determined by our belief.

If the gospel was presented to us, without the Spirit dwelling within us after regeneration, we would reject everytime too, just like a non-elect.

They can not be offered something they could not receive. They could not refuse something they were not offered. Therefore, because they could never receive salvation, it was never offered to them for them to refuse in the first place.

If we are to say that the non-elect had power to reject the offer of salvation, then we also have to say that they, as well as the elect, have the power to accept salvation. Once you state that, you are just like every other denomination out there. Then you are saying that man is somehow involved and we are in contol of determining our fate.

I just don't believe that and I don't know of any PB that does.

OR, I don't know if that is the position you are taking, but it sure looks like it to me.

If I have misunderstood or misrepresented you in any way, I apologize.

Bro. James

Dragoon68
03-17-2005, 08:36 PM
A whole lot of effort is expended by "theologians" at all levels on the subject of "free" will verses "fatalism". I'm convinced there are good arguments on various sides of the issue but I know there is a great deal we do not fully understand about God's design. The meaning of the Bible will always be the subject of discussion among Christians because it is not a neatly codified set of instructions that immediately answer every legalistic question posed by our challenging and rebellious nature. Rather, it is a collection of many different types of writings which must be taken in full context and in balance to its many parts.

I've, generally, come to accept the belief that most Primitive Baptists seem to hold on the issue but I can't say we are absolutely positively correct about it. I do have the Word of God to read but I am not God to read it. I do feel God called me out of my blind sinful nature through the Holy Sprit according to His will to "accept" the salvation Jesus had in mind for me before the beginning of time and which was secured by His personal sacrifice to reconcile me before the Father as a full pardon for the justly deserved punishment of my sins. I, honestly, don't believe I could have "rejected" knowing God when He did call me out although I certainly did, and still do, reject His desires through my conduct.

On the other hand, I feel I have a "free" will to some extent regarding what I do or don't do and am therefore fully responsible for all my actions. I don't believe God designed robotic fully preprogrammed creatures by His creation of mankind. I do make many choices and to what extent those are determined by my own will or by God's will or some combination I am not entirely sure. It's clear I can make the wrong choices! It is doubtful, from the perspective of personal experience, that I could have not "accepted" salvation yet the Bible does record the rejection of even our Lord even upon the direct witness of His marvelous and miraculous works that should have convinced anyone then present that He was exactly whom He claimed to be.

Reconciling these two points of view can sometimes be a challenge for the limited capacity of the human mind and the boundaries of space and time imposed upon us by God's creation. Our knowledge is limited by our knowledge! Ask me about these things when we get to heaven and, hopefully, then I'll know for sure who was right and was not. Among men I find holes in most arguments. I'm certain God's answer will be correct.

What I can say with much more certainty is that, whether or not man does or does not have some or complete "free" will to accept or reject salvation really doesn't make a difference in so far as what an individual should do with that salvation they have. If you are saved, then you are, and it matters not whether you had a "choice" in the matter or not. If you are not saved, likewise, you are not and what you do by your own power won't change it.

The key point is that creation, judgment, condemnation, sacrifice, redemption, pardon, salvation, rewards, and punishment all come from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It's all under His control one way or the other.

What does matter from the point of recognition of the salvation we are given is what we do from day to day here on earth thereafter. Convincing others of the one true God through good witness for His honor and glory seems to be the right thing to do. Christian brothers and sisters need help doing the right things for the right reasons more than they do a constant deluge of preaching about who is saved and whether or not they had any choice in the matter.

It is an interesting topic worth discussing and I have, in fact, added to it. However, if we become too consumed in the debate of which doctrine regarding "free" will or "fatalism" is perfectly correct we may well loose sight of or neglect the things to be done with the precious gift we've been given.

Patrick

old regular
03-21-2005, 11:34 AM
The Bible does teach and Christ Did Speak to Unbelievers,non elect John 8:44 "Ye are of your Father the Devil" elect or non elect? 2Corth 4:3 and 4 are taling about non-elect which believe not,lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them.The Gospel was There they believe not in Christ because like Christ told them(non-elect)John 10:26"But ye believe not.because ye are not of my sheep,.."Was Christ Manifested Before Them?Also John15:2"if I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin;but now they have no cloak for their sin.Was this for judgement purposes?We belive they were already fallen in Adam or are they the (them) elect?Remember Christ died for the sheep and his sheep hear his voice and a stranger they will not follow.2 Thess2:10"and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;(Why do they perish)because they recieved not the love of truth,that they might be saved."How can you believe not in something that was never manifested how can you recieve not something that was never there?The non-elect will be judged by their works.The elect are saved by Christ's works his righteousness his life we believe because it was given us to believe this is a work of God.I don't believe Christ died to make a way or try to save the non-elect but those the Father gave him.I would rather believe the word of God than try to be a Good ORB or Primitive. I love both of these Churches and their people.Remember also that they are different groups among them and they. don't all see eye to eye.I post articles here more for educational purposes rather than debate so people will have a better understanding who we are and what we believe.A man convinced agains't his will is of the same opinion still.In Love Elder Slone

old regular
03-22-2005, 10:54 PM
On war combat one might want to look at the teachings of Elder Gilbert Beebee a very well known Primitive Baptist who held the same princples that SGA of ORB holds today on this issue.

franniemae78
04-01-2005, 11:11 AM
I was reading the posts on page 14 about Elder Rufus Perrigin and it got me thinkging. I went and looked on my bookcase and I have a copy of the Baptist History book that he co-authored. This book belonged to my Grandfather, Elder Nelson Lester, and when several years after he passed away my grandma gave the book to me. He is listed in the book under the Friendship Association as assistant moderater of Mt. Zion Church and set as presbytary at Mary Lue Church, (Bull Creek, W VA) I read this book and see the names of so many that my dad has talked about or that I have had the privilege to meet and hear preach. Just to name a few, H.A. Lane, Taylor Blankenship, George Hobson,
J. H. Belcher, Morgan Belcher etc..... It brings back wonderful memories.

Brother J.B.
04-16-2005, 01:21 AM
Pil grim our closest church would be the Blessed Hope church in our association. If you ever decide to go let brother mike know and i will try to go down too and meet you aswell. I live in ohio but my dad is down there and i am sure we could get you a place to stay if interested in the trip over... Brother Jeremy

Frogman
04-27-2005, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by old regular:
On war combat one might want to look at the teachings of Elder Gilbert Beebee a very well known Primitive Baptist who held the same princples that SGA of ORB holds today on this issue. Dear OldRegular,
Is there anywhere online this may be available?

Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Preacher's Boy
04-27-2005, 08:48 PM
HI...back after an illness....

old regular
05-04-2005, 12:02 PM
Dear Brother Dallas,
I don't know of any of Elder Beebe's teachings online, you may be able to find some of them at
Pilgrim Brethern Press @ P.O BOX 171, Petersburg,OH 44454. Anabaptist and the Sword by
Charles Shoftstahl contains one article by Bro.Beebee also I was told there was an absolute website that may have some articles on Beebe but this I don't Know. Bro. Slone

rlvaughn
05-04-2005, 05:31 PM
Dallas, I don't know any on the subject you ask about, but some of Beebe's writings are online, plus an autobiography.

The Autobiography of Elder Gilbert Beebe (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/miscl/gilbert_beebe.html)

Absolute Predestination (http://www.the-remnant.com/articles.htm)

Neither Cast Ye Your Pearls Before Swine (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/castswine.html)

Editorials of Elder Gilbert Beebe (http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/beebe/)

Invitations of the Gospel (http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=31%7C%7C79)

Preaching for Pay? (http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=552)

You might also check the back issues link of "The Remnant".

Preacher's Boy
05-05-2005, 06:04 PM
Does anyone know if the OLd Regular churches founded in Cincinatti Dayton, OH area are still meeting...there was on in Westchester, Goshen, Fincastle, Sligo, North Dayton, Columbus, Jacksonburg...also around Milan, Sunman, and Rising Sun in IN?....I'd like to attend but I don't remember from childhood exactly where they were or how to reach them.

I think they were mixed among Indian Bottom, Thornton Union, and Northern New Salem Associations...thanks..if you have any info pleasse email at Medallion#insurer.com
thanks much

Preacher's Boy
05-07-2005, 01:24 PM
Thanks so much for the info on the Indian Bottom web site ...its up now and inclludes the addresses of chuches I had attended as a child and lost track of...Ny Dad's cousin is still the moderator of one of them...thanks...doug ison

OldRegular
05-27-2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Preacher's Boy:
Thanks so much for the info on the Indian Bottom web site ...its up now and inclludes the addresses of chuches I had attended as a child and lost track of...Ny Dad's cousin is still the moderator of one of them...thanks...doug ison Used to know a man named Kirby Ison, Any kin?

old regular
06-07-2005, 12:26 AM
The Sovereign Grace Association Of Old Regular Baptist of Jesus Christ (Churches of Christ)is to have its next Session at the Blessed Hope Church,in Pellyton, Ky Adair Co. not far from Liberty,Ky in Casey Co.Starting at 1p.m Est or 12p.m Cst Friday the 15th of July and continue the next two days the 16th and 17th,all are welcomed!! for more information call Bro.Cleophas Slone @606-346-9619 or Elder Michael Slone 606-787-0144 or any of the Brothers of that association.From Liberty Ky take 70 west to Moxley Rd. turn left at Creston Missionary Baptist take Moxley Rd 4.3 miles as you come down a large hill turn left on Spruce Pine Rd Church will be on your right 1/10 a mile.Anyone who is interested in Old Regular Baptist will find this small association very happy to see them.They usually have one service in which visting Baptist Ministers from other groups of Baptist that share their love for the doctrines of Grace conduct their own service by appointment.SGA ministers preach directly with only other Old School Baptist,Old Regular,Old United,and Primitive but they may preach any where God in his wisdom may cast their lot, they just seperate through prayer.

bubba jimmy
11-30-2005, 02:31 PM
I recently had an occassion to visit the Old Regular Batptist church in Michigan where my grandmother attended church after she moved from Kentucky. I was shocked to find something I thought I'd never find in an Old Regular Baptist church - a baptistry. I believe they belong to the New Salem association, and they got permission becuase the government had essentially regulated away their ability to use any local rivers or streams for baptizing. Anyone know how common this is becoming?

(I notice this thread has been inactive for quite a while - hope folks are still around who are interested in the Old Regulars)

bubba jimmy
11-30-2005, 02:35 PM
Sorry for double posting, but I do have a question. Does anyone know how a person can get a copy of the Sweet Songster or the old Thomas Hymnal? For any who don't get the chance to hear Old Regular Baptist singing live, I highly recommend the CD that is available from Smithsonian. It was recorded about 10 years ago at one of the Indian Bottom Association churches in Kentucky. Anyway, thanks if you can help with the hymnals.

Jim

rlvaughn
11-30-2005, 05:54 PM
Bubba Jimmy, I can't help with the baptistery question, but can with the hymn book question. The last I heard the Thomas hymnal and Sweet Songster were both out of print. I expect the Sweet Songster will be printed from time to time. Check your private messages. I have sent you the address of the person from whom the Sweet Songster was last available, as well as the name of the printer who last printed it. Hope this helps.

Bethelassoc
12-02-2005, 10:16 PM
rlvaughn,

I do have a contact that still gets both songbooks reprinted. He's been referenced several times to me as the one that reprints them every year.

I have yet to purchase any, but I am planning on calling him soon to buy some.

Welcome to the BB, bubba jimmy.

(What part of Michigan? Little Alvie and Little Goldie are established around where I grew up in Indiana.)

David White

rlvaughn
12-02-2005, 10:22 PM
David, I'd be interested in getting this information. Thanks. Rlvaughn

bubba jimmy
12-04-2005, 03:46 PM
(What part of Michigan? Little Alvie and Little Goldie are established around where I grew up in Indiana.)
It was at the Little Ida church in Ecorse, near Detroit. Are all the Michigan Old Regular churches named "Little" something? Interesting...

Yes, if you have a contact for these hymnals I'd appreciate it. They are likely no longer under copyright so my guess is that anyone could reprint them.

Bethelassoc
12-04-2005, 05:24 PM
It was at the Little Ida church in Ecorse, near Detroit. Are all the Michigan Old Regular churches named "Little" something? Interesting... Some churches are named this way. They're sometimes named in memory of a member. I still have a page of the church, Little Martha Old Regular Baptist Church (http://www.unitedbaptists.org/little%20martha.html), I believe to be named for one of my family members.

Little added to the front, I'm not sure of yet.

United Baptists have named churches in this manner also.

David

Jeff Weaver
12-13-2005, 10:54 PM
I recently had an occassion to visit the Old Regular Batptist church in Michigan where my grandmother attended church after she moved from Kentucky. I was shocked to find something I thought I'd never find in an Old Regular Baptist church - a baptistry. I believe they belong to the New Salem association, and they got permission becuase the government had essentially regulated away their ability to use any local rivers or streams for baptizing. Anyone know how common this is becoming?
Don't know of another old Regular congregation with a baptistry, perhaps there are. There are a few Primitive Baptist Churches in the northeast (perhaps elsewhere) that have them. The churches in the Washington, DC area have them because it is just easier than trying to find a place to baptize otherwise. I pastored a church in Wilmington, Delaware, and we used a creek about 30 miles away in Pennsylvania, so it can be difficult in urban areas to find suitable places to baptize.

Hope it helps.

Jeff Weaver

pinoybaptist
12-15-2005, 07:00 PM
This may already have been asked in one of these 19 pages, but, can anyone tell me if the ORB come close to the PB in faith and practice ?
Or, where can one go to dig up info on the Old Regulars ?
And, are there Old Regulars in Maryland ?
Thanks.

Frogman
12-15-2005, 07:24 PM
Dear Brother Pinoybaptist,
Here are some links from Google.com

Old Regular Baptists (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Old+Regular+Baptists&btnG=Google+Search)

Looks like on the first page even this thread is linked...cool.

Also a link to Old Regular Baptists in Eastern Ky.

I will search for Maryland now.

Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Frogman
12-15-2005, 07:28 PM
this page of links seems to equate Old Line Primitive Baptist with Old Regular Baptist.

Old Regular Baptists Maryland (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Old+Regular+Baptists+Maryland&btnG=Search)

Bro. Dallas

rlvaughn
12-15-2005, 11:25 PM
Frogman, pinoy; I put "Old Regular Baptists" in quotation marks and narrowed the hits to 185. That might be less unrelated info to wade through. Hope this helps.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Old+Regular+Baptists%22+Maryland&btnG=Search

Frogman
12-16-2005, 01:06 AM
Thanks Brother Vaughn,
I didn't know to do that trick.

I thought it was awesome, one link said this thread had 2252 posts, in just nineteen pages.

I don't know why Brother pinoybaptist didn't just start with the first page;

By the time he finished certainly he could also have traversed Maryland<grin>.

Just kidding Brother, just kidding.

Bro. Dallas

Jeff Weaver
12-16-2005, 08:45 AM
This may already have been asked in one of these 19 pages, but, can anyone tell me if the ORB come close to the PB in faith and practice ?
Or, where can one go to dig up info on the Old Regulars ?
And, are there Old Regulars in Maryland ?
Thanks. Bro. Tim.

There are some Regular Baptists in Maryland who omit the "Old" from their title. A Church or two exists in Harford County, and a couple more in Cecil County, and there are three or four just over the line in Pennsylvania, which would be close to the "Old Regulars."

As for practice, "Old Regulars" would be perhaps a bit more strict on some things than Primitives are. As for doctrine, some, not all, believe in a general atonement, and would probably be counted four-point Calvinists. Some are very nearly indistinguishable from Primitives.

Hope everyone at Columbia is well. Please give Elder Compton, and everyone our regards. He performed the marriage ceremony for my wife and I a very long time ago. I wish health would permit another visit with the folks there.

Jeff Weaver

Jeff Weaver
12-16-2005, 08:59 AM
this page of links seems to equate Old Line Primitive Baptist with Old Regular Baptist.

Old Regular Baptists Maryland

Bro. Dallas Bro. Dallas.

The link would be incorrect if that is the case. They are very close, but those of us who grew up in both worlds know the differences.

We have discussed this years ago, but there are three groups known known as Regular Baptists in the current scheme of the Baptist universe (perhaps more).

1st. General Association of Regular Baptists - Conservative schism from the old Northern Baptists, not under consideration here.

2nd. "Old Regular" Baptists, located principally in eastern Kentucky, Southwestern Virginia and places where these folks migrated. Very strict church discipline, some 4point Calvinists, others 5-point Calvinists.

3rd. Regular Baptists, also known among themselves as Union Baptists, resultant from a schism among Primitive Baptists and some Missionary Baptists over their support of the Union in the Civil War. Almost all of these Regular Baptists are Republicans. This faction (my great-grandfather was a minister for them) saw the coming together of some Primitives and Missionaries on political principals. Practice is very nearly Primitive, theology is 4-point Calvinist. (The term Calvinist being used as a short-hand). Some of these folks are full 5-point Calvinists, but they don't argue much about it. These bodies are very small, perhaps 100 churches, in four factions. One of their largest associational bodies has their churches named "Primitive."

To further add to the confusion, some Primitive Baptist Churches are officially named the xxxx Regular Primitive Baptist Church of Christ. But in discussion, only the Primitive title is used.

Some "Old Regular" and "Regular" Baptist Churches have the official name of xxxx Regular Primitive Baptist Church of Christ, but in discussion, only the Regular Title is used.

Thoroughly confused? :confused: I thought so, so, I'll quit now.

Jeff

rlvaughn
12-16-2005, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Frogman:
Thanks Brother Vaughn,
I didn't know to do that trick.
You're welcome, Bro. Dallas. If you just search on google for Old Regular Baptists Maryland, it looks for all sites with those four terms. So the Old and Regular and Baptist might not be associated in every case. If you plug in "Old Regular Baptists" Maryland, the search engine is still looking for those four words, but only for "Old Regular Baptists" when the three words are found together.

There is also the advanced search on google in which you can also exclude certain words.

Frogman
12-16-2005, 05:54 PM
Brother Vaughn,
Thanks again.

Brother Jeff,
I am beginning to get straigthened out I think<grin>.

Bro. Dallas

Daniel H
12-25-2005, 06:29 PM
Please visit our website www.oldregularbaptist.com (http://www.oldregularbaptist.com) it is the Indian Bottom Association's website. I am Daniel Hughes the website manager. May God bless.

pinoybaptist
12-25-2005, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Jeff Weaver:

Bro. Tim.

There are some Regular Baptists in Maryland who omit the "Old" from their title. A Church or two exists in Harford County, and a couple more in Cecil County, and there are three or four just over the line in Pennsylvania, which would be close to the "Old Regulars."

As for practice, "Old Regulars" would be perhaps a bit more strict on some things than Primitives are. As for doctrine, some, not all, believe in a general atonement, and would probably be counted four-point Calvinists. Some are very nearly indistinguishable from Primitives.

Hope everyone at Columbia is well. Please give Elder Compton, and everyone our regards. He performed the marriage ceremony for my wife and I a very long time ago. I wish health would permit another visit with the folks there.

Jeff Weaver Thank you for this info, Brother Jeff.
Brother Compton seldom attends services at Columbia anymore.
He is at an old folks' home, run by Elder Bloyd if my info is correct, somewhere in the Eastern Shore of Maryland, actually already in Delaware.
But when I see him, I will give him your greetings.

Brother Tim

old regular
05-26-2006, 02:43 AM
Does anyone know anything about the United Baptist of Primitive Order in Alabama? Are their associations close in doctrine faith and practice to Primitive or Old Regular Baptist.

Joseph M. Smith
05-26-2006, 08:34 AM
The Comptons' son and daughter were at one time members of my decidedly non-primitive Baptist church in Washington, DC. Surprised to hear Mr. Compton is still living.

pinoybaptist
05-26-2006, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Joseph M. Smith:
The Comptons' son and daughter were at one time members of my decidedly non-primitive Baptist church in Washington, DC. Surprised to hear Mr. Compton is still living. If the Lord wills, he will be 102 next year. I haven't seen him for a number of weeks now. The last time was when he came down from Mt. Carmel PBC to preach in Columbia.
He had, as I understand it, an operation for colon cancer, a few weeks back.
I won't be seeing him much anymore, seeing as my wife and I have moved up to North Tonawanda, NY, and there aren't any Primitive Baptist churches around here.
I guess we'll have to settle for going to a Reformed Baptist church across the bridge to Canada.
Elder Compton is a saintly, God-fearing man with nothing unkind to say of anybody, even about those in a Virginia association who seemed to have rejected him (if my understanding is correct).
I know the son you are referring to, and have met him a few times during services at Columbia and during their mother's funeral a few years ago.

Bethelassoc
05-27-2006, 11:13 AM
Does anyone know anything about the United Baptist of Primitive Order in Alabama? Are their associations close in doctrine faith and practice to Primitive or Old Regular Baptist. I believe you are referring to Wills Creek Association and Town Creek Association.

I have some information about them that is not up to date. This small association is officially called, "Wills Creek Association of United Baptists of the Primitive Faith and Order". It has been known as a Primitive Baptist association and has been known as United Primitive Baptist. The name "United" was dropped in 1842, and that it was restored in 1882. They probably called themselves Primitive Baptist from 1842 until 1882, then went back to United since no other PBs would correspond.

This information was given to me by Bro Vaughn from the Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists, Vol. 4, F. Wilbur Helmbold.

The other association is called Town Creek Association of United Baptists of the Primitive Faith and Order. It is quite possible that they do not exist anymore. I've corresponded with a member of the Wills Creek United Baptist Association and he never really heard of them.

I do have minutes from them if you are wanting some information, Bro Slone.

David

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 03:36 PM
If you don't mind my jumping in here. As far as long funerals are concerned it is more practiced among Union, Some New Salem but Sardis have cut their funerals down to abut 1 hour and 3 preachers. One to introduce services and prayer, one to follow and one to close out.

As far as Secret Order it is still an order in New Salem, Northern New Salem, Old Friendship, Old Indian Bottom (not one on web site), Sardis, Philedelphia, Union and the others I dont know.

Difference Theo of United and Old Regular consists mostly of "knowledge". Old Regular preach a Hope but that Hope is Christ and the United preach absolute knowledge but there are among both sides those who strongly agree with each other. Some churches I preach at have almost as many United Baptist as Old Regular and United is like the Old Regular, split very badly over different issues such as double marriage, music etc. More later.

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 03:52 PM
Little Rebecca , Henry Rd, Plymouth, OH
Maggie's Home Dundas, OH
Mt. Zion 5874 St. Rt. 309 Ada, OH
Little Flock, Rt 1 Ray, OH
Little Ruth, Rt 3 Marengo, OH
Little Edna 5160 Bond Ave Lorain,OH
Little Ida 4060 Drennan St Ecorse, Mich.
Little Flossie Lisbon, Indiana
Little Angel, 5733 Saltgaber Rd, Columbus, OH
Lily of the Valley, Rt. 534-600 Kawanis Pk. Dr., Geneva, OH

All Northern New Salem Churches don't know if it will help or not Preacher Boy.

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 03:54 PM
Notice none have mentioned the Moderators of The New Salem Association for last 40 years, Elder Banner Mann, Elder Grover Adkins, Elder Ellis Holbrook (present)

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 04:00 PM
franniemae78; I have preached in the Mary Lou Old Regular Baptist Church in Friendship Association. It is located near Grundy, Va and if you want to contact them George Baker, HC 61 Box 42A, Grunda, VA 24614 )276) 259-7640 or Larry Mullins HCR Box 141, Jolo, WV 24850 (304)967-7637

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 04:16 PM
Bubba; There are a few Old Regular Baptist who have baptisteries but very few and mostly located in Mich, OH. In Kentucky and area there are some who have a baptistery outside with a cover over it that can be slid back. One Church was cut from New Salem over using a baptistery and went to Indian Bottom who has web site but before Indian Bottom would take them they had to get rid of the baptistery. You will eventually see them on the outside more and more because of the filth in the creeks.

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 04:34 PM
bethelassoc;
Holston Valley, Lake Shore Dr., Bean Sta., TN
Bethany, Morelock ST., Kingsport, TN
Union Association Churches

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 05:00 PM
This is an Old Regular Baptist Song Book that I started publishing in 1990 and copyrighted. I started because there were no books published in this part of Eastern Kentucky. I do not do it for profit but just to serve the Old Regular Baptist but now Primitive, United, Freewill and just people who have grown up with these songs buy them. I only sale around 500 copies a year. I make very little effort to sell them I just keep publishing for the orders I get.

Link

Baptist Song Book (http://webpages.charter.net/screamingeagles/Old%20Regular%20Baptist%20Song%20Books/index)

pinoybaptist
05-27-2006, 05:22 PM
Brother Bob:

Know of any Old Regular Baptists of Primitive leanings in the Niagara-Buffalo-Lewiston and Tonawandas area ?
Or maybe somewhere in Ontario ?
Or a church close to being such ?
thanks.

Brother Bob
05-27-2006, 06:12 PM
Sorry Pinoybaptist;
As far North as we go is Michigan. We have several in Michigan. It is just through the tunnel isn't it to Ecorse?

old regular
05-30-2006, 07:43 PM
Dear Bethelasso, Yes I would like info on them, I wanted to know if they are like Old Regulars And Primitives. Thank You.

Brother Bob
05-30-2006, 08:46 PM
The last time Mud River showed up at the New Salem was several years ago. All other Associations had dropped correspondence with them over "light is life". The last Association to drop them was the New Salem Association. The last time they attended with correspondend with New Salem there was only 1 and possibly 2 churches that made up Mud River.

blessings,

BBob

rlvaughn
05-30-2006, 09:31 PM
Does anyone know anything about the United Baptist of Primitive Order in Alabama? Are their associations close in doctrine faith and practice to Primitive or Old Regular Baptist.

There are two associations in Alabama (that I am aware of) that use "United Baptist of the Primitive Faith and Order" in their association's name -- Town Creek and Wills Creek. It is hard to make such a general comparison, but I would say that they are perhaps closer to some of the Kentucky United Baptists than to Old Regular or Primitive. I can't state categorically what they believe, but it seems to me somewhat like "general" in preaching and "particular" in practice, if that makes any sense. In the 1800s, these churches vacillated back and forth from the words "United", "Primitive" and "United Primitive" to what they finally have today. If not mistaken these churches were originally in fellowship with the regular Primitive Baptists in Alabama until there was a division over whether they could accept baptisms from the Missionary Baptist churches. Those that would become "United Primitive" (I think) originally thought it was OK, though I think they later would not. This is from memory and may not be totally correct.

Wills Creek has two churches and Town Creek about 6 or so. There is another larger association of 20 or 30 called "Wills Creek United Baptist Association", which is larger and more "modern" than the other Wills Creek -- baptisteries, Sunday Schools, musical instruments. They were all originally one body and represent an early 1900s split.

old regular
05-30-2006, 10:01 PM
Mud Rivers Doctrine was never proven false by using the Word of God ,Light is Life,Life is Light look at John 8:12 and John 1:4 also no scripture to sinners look @ 2Tim3:17 look to who Pauls letters were addressed to the world or to the church. It takes the same spirt to understand the word of God as it took to Write it.What does the bible say about a carnal mind or the natural mind? No this association was badly abused by the others for the truth that is a quote from Banner Manns Elder/moderator of the New Salem, he said before he died that they were right and that he had been wrong along with the rest of the associations involved.Also note the decline of every association that dropped Mud River , they have lost more than Mud River Had. Brother Mike Slone

Brother Bob
05-30-2006, 10:14 PM
First of all I knew Kirby Isom, ok. I thought when I saw the name of your Association it was one of he ones that started from a split from Thornton but not sure. I also saw what you posted as doctrine for Old Regular Baptist and it is not the doctrine for New Salem, Sardis, Union, Old Friendship, Old Indian Bottom, Phildelphia and Northern New Salem. As far as light being life all of the above association differ with your explanation and so do I for "The Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men, that didn't leave any out did it. Also there is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God Almighty that giveth him understanding. We believe the Scripture that says;
John, chapter 1

Chapter (http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/kjv2www?specfile=/texts/english/religion/kjv/kjv-pub.o2w&act=text&offset=3815805&textreg=0&query=lighteth)
Book (http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/kjv2www?specfile=/texts/english/religion/kjv/kjv-pub.o2w&act=text&offset=3815805&textreg=1&query=lighteth)


"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

(but all did not receive life did they.)

So when you give the doctrine of the Old Regular Baptist you should explain it is the ones you hold to and not all Old Regular Baptist.

Blessings

BBob

Brother Bob
05-30-2006, 10:21 PM
As far as Banner Mann;
I was there when the Association put him out as Moderator and I never saw a man cut such a shine in all my life. I thought sure there was going to be a fight that day when they put Brother Grover Adkins in as their Moderator and best thing they ever did.

Blessings,

BBob

old regular
05-31-2006, 03:03 AM
Dear Bro.Bob, I tried to post you a reply but once again it was some how lost.Maybe I used to many sentences.I have stated in the past that there are different doctrinal views among the old regulars and there really is two sides.This exist in the different associations and churches.for an example you belong to the Sardis but your doctrine is not the same as Isom Hannah.

old regular
05-31-2006, 03:32 AM
IT Happened again Itried to write a reply and it was lost again when I went to post it .Maybe I should try to reach you Bro. Bob By some other means.We also should look into our forefathers historical positions on absolute predestination and Arminism.Maybe we could figure out who if any is holding to the original doctrine of ORB. Bro.Slone

old regular
05-31-2006, 03:44 AM
Bro.Bob How many members did the Sardis have when they dropped Mud River? How many do they Have now? All I was saying earlier that Light and Life are both Christ same as the way the truth are also.I wrote to you several scriptures but every time try to post them it fails.I have preached in all but two associations which use Old Regular in their title. Neither of these in corespondence with you I have preached in Churches in all your corresponding assns. But I don't remember you. SGA has nothing to do with Ermel Isom .SGA history is on one of the ORB sites.

Brother Bob
05-31-2006, 06:12 AM
Brother Isom was one of our highly esteemed brethern and you say my doctrine is not the same as his. Well I don't know any two brothers who agree on everything and if you don't remember me that is alright too for I don't remember you either. I remember a Slone but not sure it was you but will find out. If you don't know me then how can you say Brother Isom's doctrine is different than mine. I was with his son-in-law last Sat in a funeral. I was with brother Isom for years before he died. I can tell you this, all the Associations loved brother Isom Hannah but some of his doctrine they didn't like.

Membership? I don't know anyone who has not declined in numbers over the last few years and there is a reason for that too and its not the Gospel but its we don't build
gymnasiums or a band with drums and "get down" music, I think, but who really knows. Maybe its a fulfillment of the Scriptures.

Brother Bob
05-31-2006, 05:07 PM
Is the following Scripture and if so, where?

"They shall say amen to their own condemnation".

old regular
05-31-2006, 06:14 PM
Brother Bob the only thing I know about your doctrine, is what you have stated on the Baptist Board.I knew that Bro.Hannah preached and believed in predestination, maybe you believe in election and predestination maybe I judged you to quickly,If I have I am very sorry. I would like for you to explain your own views on the doctrine of election by Grace. P.S I see your face almost every Sunday night on one of our pews,The Blesed Hope Church has one of your song books, even though they preach what the NNS calls hard doctrine.I would like to meet you sometime, I am sure there is more we will agree on then disagree. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
05-31-2006, 06:48 PM
Bro Slone;
Glad to hear you have a good song book. :) I have been publishing since 1990 and my books are all over all the Associations now. As you probably know the song book published by Foster Ratliff and sold by Brother C B Smith is still in circulation but Brother CB told me he was thinking about quiting. Most of the Associations won't let him sale his books no more of which I am against such action.

Now concerning election, I sure we disagree for that is mostly why you left the Northern New Salem and started the SGA with Fred Charles but probaby we agree on the rest. I certainly agree on the dress code, the singing, foot washing and Communion except we use the grape juice but you already know that. Probaby we agree on doctrine for I have many many friends who are Primitive Baptist. I live right in the mist of Mates Creek and their Association Moderator is my first cousin, Randall Thornsbury.
I believe that all men can go to Heaven if they will repent. I do not believe a man can save himself. I do not believe the Law can save someone but do believe it is still a schoolmaster and we are made free from the Law when we are born again. I believe Jesus stands at the door of the hearts of men and strives with them to believe in Him. When I was a sinner I knew if I died in that condition Hell would be my home. I cried mightly unto the Lord and He heard my cry blood cleansed me. Salvation is of the Lord and no one else. I also believe in once saved always saved for I believe if He can save me He certainly deliver me unto the end. I am not of those who believe a man can be saved and then murder someone, ask for forgiveness and all is well. I believe if it were possible for him to taste of the good fruits of the Lord and if he were to fall to renew him unto repentance again is impossible. I believe the Grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men, teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lust that he should live soberly and righteously in this present world looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ who had redeemed us from all eniquity and purified unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. If I go on they won't let me post. :praying:

Bro Bob

Brother Bob
05-31-2006, 07:00 PM
This is why Sardis split from Primitive and New Salem followed suit the following year and dropped Mates Creek also. I think Sardis and Mates Creek presented a letter in 1894 to New Salem and Union and they rejected Mates Creek for same reason as Sardis and accepted Sardis. Anyway, Sardis was part of Mates Creek until the split in 1893.


RECORD OF THE SARDIS ASSOCIATION

Organized in the year 1893 upon the following Faith, to wit:

We, the Churches of Jesus Christ of Regular Baptist, are consti­tuted on the following Faith:

1st: We believe in only one true and living God, the Creator of the heavens and earth and all things that are therein contained.

2nd: We believe in Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God, who is Head and King of His Church.

3rd: We believe in the Holy Ghost, the sealer and applier of the redemption purchased by Christ.

4th: We believe in the Father; Son and Holy Ghost and these three are One.

5th: We believe the Scripture of the Old and New Testaments to be the infallible Word of God and take it for our only rule of faith and practice and nothing is to be added to it or taken from it.
6th: We believe in the free atonement of Jesus Christ and that He tasted death for every man and that salvation is offered to all men and women upon the terms of the Gospel.

7th: We believe that repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are necessary previous to baptism, and that by immersion is the only right way of administering the ordinance.

8th: We believe that Christ has but one true Gospel Church and that it will finally persevere through grace to eternal glory.

9th: We believe in the Communion of the Lord's Supper, that is, taking of the bread and wine, by the Church of Jesus Christ in commemoration of the death and suffering of the Son of God until His Second Coming.

10th: We believe that feet washing is an ordinance of Jesus Christ and ought to be observed and kept up by His Church until His Second Coming.

11th: We believe that Jesus Christ is the first resurrection from the dead and that He lives forever.
12th: We believe in the resurrection of the just and unjust.

13th: We believe in the final punishment of the wicked and in the eternal happiness of the righteous.

We, the Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ, composed of duly authorized delegates and members from the Brushy Fork, Sardis and Big Branch Churches, convened with the Brushy Fork Church on August 5, 1893 and organized by electing W.W. Fields, Moderator; and P.D. Bevins, Clerk.

Upon motion, the Moderator appointed Brothers G.W. May­nard and W.L. Smith as Committee to report the order of business for this day. The report of said Committee was read, approved and the Committee discharged.

Upon motion and second, the Association declared the follow­ing to be the reasons for founding a new Association and they, in like manner, adopted the annexed Constitution and Articles of Faith.

We, the Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ, convened with the Brushy Fork Church and composed as a working body for the transaction of business of duly authorized delegates from the Big Branch, Sardis and Brushy Fork Churches, deeming it necessary on account of a material difference of opinion existing between our­selves and other Brethren of the Mates Creek Churches to organize an Association separate and apart from our differing and yet highly esteemed Brethren in which we may live in harmony and perfect unison with each other.

NOW, BE IT KNOWN, in the presence of these witnesses and before Almighty God, the Supreme Judge of the World and all our actions:

First: That we do not object to the outline of Doctrine as we understand it to have been written in the different Constitutions of the Churches composing the Mates Creek Association.

Second: That while we believe no one independent of God's Almighty Power can be instrumental in the salvation of his soul, we do believe that man is responsible for his deeds, which thing we understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Third: That we object to the Doctrine held by our Mates Creek Brethren that man as a created being is compelled by God Eternal in all things to do just as he does, whether it be good or evil.
Fourth: We believe that man in the Creation was given limited power and that good and evil were set before him with the possibility of his choosing either. Therefore, we believe that when Adam par­took of evil he did so not by compulsion but by choice, which thing we also understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Therefore, these things being essential in regard to the prosper­ity of the Church, and as members holding these different views cannot possibly live in true Brotherly love within the same Associa­tion, we thought it better both for our Absolute Predestination Brethren and ourselves that we organize a separate Association. Not that we object to the original Doctrine of the Mates Creek Associa­tion but that we believe that our Predestination Brethren have departed from these same Doctrines.

But to them and all others be it understood, with God as our Judge, that it is with malice toward none that we withdraw from the Mates Creek Association and adopt the following Constitution for our Church government, together with the foregoing Articles of Faith for each of the Churches composing our Body:

old regular
05-31-2006, 08:17 PM
Brother Bob, Thanks for your answer and the history you may want to review pages 24 and 25 of this website and comment.We still hold to the doctrinal boundries set by the New Salem in 1892 this statement set the stage for the Old Regulars identy from the Baptist Associations around them."Resolved, that we drop the nineteenth item of our last years minutes and advise our churches to cleanse, or abstain from the doctrine that teaches that God is the author of sin, or that He influences men therto,and the doctrine of Arminianism that claims the work of the creature(man)to be essential to eternal salvation."

old regular
05-31-2006, 08:29 PM
While I didn't go along with some of the things NNS tolerated to be preached like the whole world faith doctrine when the Bible taught all men have not faith, they really did not charge me with any hersey as I didn't preach anything that I could not support.Our leaving had more to do with lies being told ,Elders permitted to do such with out rebuke , the association not going by her own consitiution,when it came to me ,also the rules of decorum could be violated while i was speaking with no censure from the moderator.The wine issue just broke the dam, we had asked them to reprint historical statements concerning arminian doctrine, they refused saying they were the now regular baptist and that was the old brethern.We would have gladly went to the Union or New Salem but we were told they would kill our churches before they would let us go.We tried to go but they refused.Seeing that our churches being there would continue to disturb our peace and theirs. We left a lot of people we still love dearly.bro.slone

Brother Bob
05-31-2006, 08:47 PM
Brother Mike:
I am sure you did and I am sorry for your past troubles. I have had them too and they can cause you to spend a many sleepless nights. It is really not my business and I don't want to accuse you of anything. I am very good friends with the Northern leaders and know about the situation but that is between you and them.

I do have a question for you that I do not understand on your doctrine and wondered if you espoused it when you were with us. You posted it back on 24 or 25 or somewhere back and is as follows:

There is not much difference they both came from the same original associations.In doctrine they are very close,however the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation.They believe that Gods election is the only cause for any of Adams Race being saved,but election or God can not be blamed for the unbelievers final fate that man is responsible for his actions. While the condemnation they recieve was ordained of old they themselves were not predestinated nor elected for Hell and the lake of fire

(how could it be that a man is not chosen as the elect before the world began and there are two places that will hold the whole human race, then that only leaves he will go to Hell and the Lake, then how can that not be "predestination"?)

Also, "if you die in your sins where I am you cannot come". How can you turn that completely around where you are saved and then repent. I sincerely do not understand.

Do you have a copy of the article that was removed in 1892. In 1893 New Salem refused letters of correspondence because they said they were in such an uproar themselves. I can only surmise that it was about Mates Creek and Sardis for the following year there was no mention of Mates Creek but Sardis's letter was received. I assume also that New Salem and Union agreed with the doctrine of the Sardis at that time which is that a man must repent of his sins. Of course we don't believe a man can do anything on his own, including breating but the Lord is striving with him and man lets the Spirit lead him to Salvation. We also believe that God strives with all men as the Scripture says "that time and chance has happened to all".

All men have not faith; We attribute that to men have their conscious burned with a heart iron and turned over to a hardness of heart, reprobative mind to believe a lie and be damned. (unto every man is dealt a measure of faith).

blessings,

BBob

old regular
06-01-2006, 12:28 AM
Brother Bob, How do you get to post long paragraphs? It always looses mine .We donot agree on every man being delt a measure of faith. that every man in that chapter was in the body, faith is one of the fruit of the spirt, you can not have an appple without the tree.You can't have faith without the spirt even the spirt of faith .That scripture is being taken out of context it would be just as sound to say allmen have not faith so nobody on earth has faith because it says all.All And every are often used in a restricted since.

old regular
06-01-2006, 12:57 AM
Dear, brother Bob Ihave spent 2 hours typing you answers to your questions just to get kicked off the web site and all my discources lost maybe I shoul write you a letter and send it in the mail.New Salem item 19 1891 "resolved that we the new salem association, cannot endorse the sentiment teaching the absolute predestination of all things,held and preached by some of our brethern,which declares God to bethe author of sin,or that he influences men thereto"

Brother Bob
06-01-2006, 06:43 AM
Brother Mike;
I don't know what you are doing different than I am unless they give members who are 1000 posts more bandwidth.

New Salem item 19 1891 "resolved that we the new salem association, cannot endorse the sentiment teaching the absolute predestination of all things,held and preached by some of our brethern,which declares God to be the author of sin,or that he influences men thereto"


Bro. Mike;
I don't see where it says anything about (or that He influences men therto,and the doctrine of Arminianism that claims the work of the creature(man)to be essential to eternal salvation.")

Have not faith? Well Brother Mike I don't know how a person could come to God if he didn't know there was one and repentance is required at the hands of all men. Also He hath purchased every man with His blood. I certainly can see how some go the route of predestination but I just don't believe that is what the Bible teaches. Of course there is predestination but I believe it to be the coming of Christ, his apostles and even John the Baptist and others but not all mankind. I think the predestinated brothers want it both ways. They do not want to say some were predestinated for hell but after they explain what the "elect" is there is no other explaination left. The keep going around and around trying to say man is responsible for his sins but turn right around and say there was nothing else he could do. I truly believe all that are going to Heaven are the "elect", but we that were not in the plan become the elect when born again and God chooses us "out of the world". I believe Israel was God's chosen people and if the Scripture had of stopped before the Middle Wall was broken down then Peter was right and we did not have a right to the tree of life. I thank God after Jesus rose from the dead He said: "now go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

I don't know how you could have faith in the body and not involve the spirit. Without the spirit the body is dead.

When I first started getting interested in church I went to a funeral in Mates Creek and heard a Elder named Teddy Ball preach that there would babies in hell no bigger than the span of his hand, that was enough for me.

Brother Isom Hannah; We all knew that brother Isom got pretty hard at times but he did not advocate it in the stand or he would of been in trouble. I have heard him touch on things that came right up to the line and maybe cross it some but he never pushed it. Brother Isom was indeed a deep scripture brother that I disagreed with on some things such as in Rev;, but I loved him and for the most part agreed with him. New Salem just had a brother die who got pretty close to hard doctrine at times and the New Salem had began to talk about it. I went to his funeral, it was Brother Monroe Jones.

bless,

BBob

Brother Bob
06-01-2006, 06:57 AM
Brother Mike;
We are taking their thread and it is not considered Kosher so I guess we need to get back to "history" don't you think?

BBob

old regular
06-01-2006, 06:27 PM
Brother Bob, as I only can type shot sentences and this is a history forum I agree ,without faith it is imposssible to please God ,the Spirt is recieved by the hearing of faith, if all men world wide have faith they would all be children of God.I doubt very much the man in the bar using Gods name in vain, has the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seem nor does he have the fruit oif the Spirt, this doctrine is new to the Old Baptist it originated from the Russell Prater Church by men who caused the Spilt in the Union which is where the Bethel Came from in the early !960s, this has been confirmed by brothers on both sides, these men did not stay in the Union long after the divide at one point they drew up a list of men in the new saalem that had the same doctrine as the bethel and took it to Grady Adkins who shamed them, and told them what they were doing was wrong,and sow discord among the brethern.I am not an eyewittness but have talked with those who were.

old regular
06-01-2006, 06:39 PM
There after the dropping of the Bold Camp church,there was a series of lawsuits that should have never been, one judge a Primitive would not hear them and told them the church was the highest court on earth but thet went to law before the unjust both the union and bethel 8 out of 9 cases the bethel was declared to be the original old regular baptist in doctrine,using previous circular letters of the union association which they had approved,years before and using the articles of faith with scripture references found in the blue history book, it was also proven in mans court union violated by dissmissing a church without unanimous consent.There was a meeting held several years a go with leaders from several regular baptist associations,they talked freely and openly about our differences and returning to the original doctrine and practice of orb but neither side could at that time comply.As one side left some practice out,the other side had ministers advocating freewill doctrines.Absolutism was not to be tolerated nor works for salvation.

Brother Bob
06-01-2006, 07:23 PM
Brother Mike;
I am pondering how to answer you. Since I have been on Baptist Board almost every thread eventually turns into a Calvinist/Arminian discussion and neither side has given one inch. I admire the Calvinist (which I know you don't want to be called) but they do present scripture and I knew those scriptures were in the Bible before I entered the discussion. I guess I believe like Abraham:
James, chapter 2
"17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
"18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
"20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
"21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
"22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
"23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
"24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I believe that there is a measure of faith that a man has that is not saved. Enough to believe there is a God, for He said "they shall all know me from the least unto the greatest". I certainly "agree" that the man in the bar does not have the faith once delievered unto the saints.

Jude, chapter 1
"1": Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
"2": Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
"3": Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
"4": For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the faith which is the substance of things hoped for.

No Calvinist or anyone else has been able to overcome;

14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, "lest his deeds should be reproved. " (says he could of went either way)

I have seen it over and over men forgetting how much power the Church, Association has. I have heard it over and over "they can't do that". They forget that the Association is ruled by a majority and if anyone including me goes against them, I will lose and they have Scripture for it too.
(whatsoever you bind on earth, shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth, shall be loosed in Heaven).
I have tried several times over the years to get brother to not take them on for they will lose but they go ahead and then they are on the outside. The judge was right! The Church is the greatest power on earth.
Things are changing and you mention the old doctrine and how can I argue with you for I don't know. I do know that all the Associations I am in correspondence with accepted the doctrine of today and it was decided in 1893.
I am like the brethren when the split came with Mates Creek. I love the Primitive and hold no malice towards them whatsoever. Even though they believe in "elect" prechosen, they still preach unto the whole world so if I am right they are still getting the ones I believe "choose ye this day whom ye shall serve".
This is a long post and don't know if it will post or not but blessings and maybe someday we will meet.

BBob

Brother Bob
06-02-2006, 06:38 PM
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, "lest his deeds should be reproved. " (says he could of went either way)

By the Way, there is a Spirit teaching man what he is by nature and what he must be by Grace so man can't do anything on his own but that Spirit strives with all men until they have been turned over to a hardness of heart.

old regular
06-05-2006, 06:54 PM
ephesians 1:19 ".......to usward who believe according to the working of his mighty power," Phillippians 1:29 "For unto you it is given in behalf of Christ,not only to believe on him,but also suffer for his sake."

old regular
06-05-2006, 07:13 PM
Acts 13:48"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 18:27"...........,helped them much which had believed through grace:"If all men world wide had faith all men world wide would be justified. The measure of faith doctrine is hyper-arminisim I know you don't believe the whole world is going to heaven this is a new doctrine even the modern churches know better.Read the book of Romans 5 th chapter "therefore being justifified by faith. What of the faith of Gods Elect? You are better off preaching the Grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us, and through that Grace men and women believe and our justified by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Thus it is Grace for Grace."Bro.Slone

old regular
06-05-2006, 07:21 PM
John 6:28-29 "then said they unto him,What shall we do,that we might work the works of God?29 Jesus answered and said unto them,This is THE WORK OF GOD,that you believe on himwhom he hath sent."

Brother Bob
06-05-2006, 07:53 PM
John 6:28-29 "then said they unto him,What shall we do,that we might work the works of God?29 Jesus answered and said unto them,This is THE WORK OF GOD,that you believe on himwhom he hath sent."
Except you believe that I am He ye shall die in your sins. He was telling them to believe while they were still sinners and He would save them.

1 Timothy, chapter 5
"8": But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

"9": Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,

"10": Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

"11": But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

"12": Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

Unless you believe in a fall, they cast off a faith of some kind, must of not been the saving faith. If there was a "first faith" there must of been "other"s.


Luke, chapter 17
12": And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:

"13": And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

"14": And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

"15": And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

"16": And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

"17": And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

"18": There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

"19": And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Unless you believe in a fall this man had faith before Salvation and also did something about the condition he was in.


Mark, chapter 5
"28": For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

"29": And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

"30": And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

"31": And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

"32": And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

"33": But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

"34": And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

She had faith enough to move out and touch Jesusís garment and she was not saved until she received the virtue.

James, chapter 2
14": What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Seems to me if you donít have any works you have a dead faith, if you believe the children of God can have a dead faith then you believe in a fall again.

Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(good works is what God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)

old regular
06-05-2006, 09:27 PM
by nature there is none that seeketh. man is totaly depraved,has neither the will or power to recover himself most orb carry that as an article of faith Union Assn."we believe in the doctrine of original sin,and man's impotency to rescue himself from the fallen state he is in by his own freewill and ability" the bible is plain on this John 1:13"..........which were born ,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN,but of GOD" Romans 9:16"so then IT IS NOTof him that willeth,nor of him that runneth, BUT OF GOD that sheweth mercy". So the promise is to whosoever that believeth, calleth,comes, but the will and the do came from God that worketh. The whosoevers of this world are the elect of God. they are predestinated to the adoption of children, they are elect according to the foreknowlege of God and this election by Grace is through something : 1PETER1:1'...........the Father through sanctification of the Spirt, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"

old regular
06-05-2006, 09:37 PM
also 2 Thess 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to Godfor you brethern beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirt and belief of the truth" note both times before obedience, before belief of the truth what was first ?sactification of the Spirt. also take your blue history book look at the scriptures used to reference election by grace in the Union Association ,they are the same scriptures I have been using ,much of what I have written comes from the history and circular letters of the associations you are in correspondence with, who changed ? In Love Bro. Slone

Brother Bob
06-05-2006, 09:48 PM
I was in a service yesterday with some of your old friends and maybe still, I donít know. Elder Estil Hamilton brought up service, Brother Roger Hick followed and I closed out. Brother Floyd Jude was there also along with a Brother Bobby Slone and several other preachers.

by nature there is none that seeketh. man is totaly depraved,has neither the will or power to recover himself most orb carry that as an article of faith Union Assn."we believe in the doctrine of original sin,and man's impotency to rescue himself from the fallen state
Surely you donít think anything I said disagrees with that Article. Man canít save himself but that does not say anything about faith enough to believe there is a God. We believe that all men are lost and cannot save themselves but must answer Godís calling which goes out to one and all for time and chance has happened unto all. Whosoever means Whosoever. We believe that the Lord strives with all men but that man must open the door to his heart and let the Lord come in and lead Him to repentance and Salvation. The woman with the issue of blood that I quoted, something had taught her that Jesus was the Saviour of she would not of had faith to move out and touch him.
So the promise is to whosoever that believeth, calleth,comes, but the will and the do came from God that worketh. The whosoevers of this world are the elect of God. they are predestinated to the adoption of children, they are elect according to the foreknowlege of God and this election by Grace is through something : 1PETER1:1'...........the Father through sanctification of the Spirt, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"

You sure put a spin on the "whosoever". What about, "come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved for I am God?

old regular
06-05-2006, 09:55 PM
I would like for all the bible readers to take a look at the 12th chapter of Romans, Paul is speaking to who? I beseech you therefore brethern. note the 3rd verse for I say,through the grace givenunto me, TO EVERY MAN THAT IS AMONG YOU,not to think more highly than he ought to think;but to think soberly according as God hath delt to every man the measure of faith."(every man in the world or every man among the brethern?) note the next vs 4"for as we have(we who the church) note vs 6".......let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith. "This faith was given to the brethern to work the gifts that God gave. "Find one bible scholar or comentator who writes different even the arminian ones. Now look up 1 Corint 12:7 here the manifestation of the Spirt is given to every man to profit withal, note it is talking of gifts again and what this Spirt gives to them (them being the body read the whole chapter)

Brother Bob
06-05-2006, 10:05 PM
The following shows faith before Salvation. I know you probably won't admit it but one of the strongest Calvinist on here finally had to admit the woman believed before she got virtue and was saved. All of the following Scriptures speak for them selves. I understand you have felt this way for some time and I know if that is so I am not going to change you Mike. If you believe that way then you belong with the hard shells. If I believed as you do I would today belong to Mates Creek Association of Primitive Baptist for I have many friends there.

1 Timothy, chapter 5
"8": But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

"9": Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,

"10": Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

"11": But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

"12": Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
Unless you believe in a fall, they cast off a faith of some kind, must of not been the saving faith.


Luke, chapter 17
12": And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:

"13": And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

"14": And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

"15": And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

"16": And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

"17": And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

"18": There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

"19": And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Unless you believe in a fall this man had faith before Salvation.

Mark, chapter 5
"28": For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

"29": And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

"30": And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

"31": And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

"32": And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

"33": But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

"34": And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
She had faith enough to move out and touch Jesusís garment and she was not saved until she received the virtue.
James, chapter 2
14": What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works
Seems to me if you donít have any works you have a dead faith, if you believe the children of God can have a dead faith then you believe in a fall again.

Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(good works is what God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)

Squire Robertsson
06-05-2006, 10:06 PM
brethren, to remember this is a History Forum. It is not a Theology Forum.

Brother Bob
06-05-2006, 10:10 PM
Sorry Squire, got carried away.:type:

old regular
06-05-2006, 10:40 PM
Now read Eph 4:7 (along with the whole chapter)"But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." So if every means every man world wide you would have to say that they all have faith, they all have Grace and they all have the Spirt. Pray tell me what else does he need.That is what the Universal Primitives Believe look how dangerously close some old Regulars are slipping their direction. Let me clear a few other things up also about me, I don't believe in absolute predestination,nor do I believe the eternal children doctrine of some ORB's.I do believe that by his own will he begat us ,through the word and that word being Christ. I believe that life or the Spirt comes first in the travail and Gods goodness leads us to repentence which is unto life not into,as many as are lead by the Spirt of God they are the sons of God , Light and LIfe are both the same thing if you are talking about Christ. Light to the world brings condemnation, but to those who recieved and believed it is life. The lost are not lost because of election,they are lost because of their own corruption, they recieved not the love of truth,they do not come to the light, they believe not, these unbelievers are not his sheep they are lovers of darkness, their condemnation was ordained of old,ey but God did not make them evil in order to condemn them ,he condems them because they are evil,and they have not believed on the only begotten Son of God.Thats way they can say Amen to there own condemnation.2 Thess 2:10-12 tells us the cause. Why then should we blame election for it. If the governor chooses to pardon 2 out 100 prisioners on death row has he been unjust to the other 98 if they are guilty ? Hath not the potter power over the clay? Yet men call him unjust, he will save every whosover will,every believer ,every one that calls upon him with a broken heart and contrite spirt."Blessed are they that mourn :for they shall be comforted."(note if they are mourning they are not to be blessed they are already blessed they are to be comforted, this is what I believe and this is not talking about mourning over mother but through a Godly sorrow,they are blessed because he that begun a good work in them will perform it till the day of Jesus Christ,same as the ones that hunger and thirst after righteousness,they are already blessed and their going to be filled,REV22:17 "And the Spirt and the Bride say come(to hear them you must have a ear to hear proverbs tells us the Lord created them both).And let him that heareth say Come.(they that hear shall live) And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. Thank the Lord for Free Grace Bro.Slone

old regular
06-05-2006, 10:47 PM
prov 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them." PSalms 65:4 " Blessed is the man whom thou choosest ,and causeset to approach unto thee,.........." May God Bless

Brother Bob
06-05-2006, 10:47 PM
My last reply Mike or we going to get banned. The moderator Squire has told us to refrain from posting anything except History on here.
You are cherry picking Mike to fit your own case. I know there are some among who feel as you do but talked to Brother Isom's son-in-law yesterday and he said brother Isom did not believe you didn't get faith until you come to the church. May God Bless and Good luck.

Lest His Deeds Be Reproved!!!!!!! Where does the Bible say they will say "amen" to their own comdemnation?

old regular
06-05-2006, 11:08 PM
I apologize if we have used the wrong thread.This debate however shows the reader,what the difference is between ,the two sides of old Regular Baptist, and has given much information,on the doctines of these Churches. So I hope you will give us a mantle of charity,for prehaps going to far into doctrine on this thread. We will close for now Elder Slone.

Brother Bob
06-06-2006, 08:05 AM
I will end with this Scripture which says that the light, don't leave anyone out but includes the whole world and if it gives life then all would be saved but it does not, just shows what a man is by nature and what he must be by Grace.


John, chapter 1
7": The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

"8": He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

"10": He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Squire Robertsson
06-06-2006, 09:50 AM
As I am not one of this forum's moderators, Brethren, I can't directly exercise any discipline here. However, better I say something and get y'all to come up for air, than some one who can make something stick gets involved. Kinda like with my nephews :saint: , better they listen to their Uncle Keith than they keep going and their parents get involved.

Brother Bob
06-06-2006, 11:31 AM
Sorry, you are right for sure.

old regular
07-07-2006, 06:38 PM
The Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ will be holding their nineth annual session with the New Mt. Zion Church in Attica ,Ohio starting on friday the 14th of July at 1pm the15th @10am and the 16th @ 10am everyone is invited!!! The church is located in the northeast block from intersection 224 and 4 turn by the alley below the gas station for parking right off rt 4 north, for fruther information call Elder Bobby Patton @419)933-4514 or Bro.Jermy Slone (419)964-0901.Note Old School Baptist Ministers please bring a minute from your association,or copy of your articles of faith we try to let all our Old School Brethern exercise their gifts, any other preaching brethern of like faith and doctrine are also welcomed and we often allow them to hold their own service seperate ,not as to gender strife and confusion. Please Come !!!

Bro. James Reed
07-26-2006, 07:46 AM
old regular,

How would you consider the Sovereing Grace ORB view similar to/different than the Primitive view?

FYI, we refer to ourselves as Old School Baptists/Old Baptists as well.

Bro. James

bubba jimmy
07-26-2006, 03:13 PM
Bubba; There are a few Old Regular Baptist who have baptisteries but very few and mostly located in Mich, OH. In Kentucky and area there are some who have a baptistery outside with a cover over it that can be slid back. One Church was cut from New Salem over using a baptistery and went to Indian Bottom who has web site but before Indian Bottom would take them they had to get rid of the baptistery. You will eventually see them on the outside more and more because of the filth in the creeks.

Thank you Brother Bob. I was just looking back over this thread and saw your comment. The baptistry at Little Ida church in Michigan is indoors, and according to the moderator there, it was put in because none of the suitable rivers have public access or the ones that do were in parks and other people had complained about them baptising there. It is a real shame that the local government authorities there are more restrictive than even the Romans and Herod were on John when he was baptizing in the Jordan! By the way, Little Ida is in the New Salem Association and the moderator said they approved the baptistry, so it must be a case-by-case thing.

By the way, how long ago was Elder Grover Adkins the moderator of that association? That name sure rings a bell in the recesses of my mind from somewhere. Anyway, I was listening to my ORB CD in the car on the way to work this morning which probably made me look in again on this thread. Thank you for the update, even if I'm a little late in seeing it.

Jim

Brother Bob
07-26-2006, 04:05 PM
Hi bubby jimmy;
Little Ida is in the Northern New Salem Association and moderated by Brother Ralph Caudell. You are right about the authorities stopping them baptizing in Lake Erie and the other Lakes and waters around so they were given permission for the baptisery in the church. I am looking at a 2002 minute and unless brother Ralph resigned He is still their moderator. Brother Buddy Carty is now Moderator of the Northern New Salem Association for brother Ralph resigned from that because of his age. I talked to him not long ago on the phone.

Brother Grover Adkins has been dead now for I guess 8 to 10 years. Brother Ellis Holbrook is their moderator of New Salem and Brother Monroe Jones was Assistant but he died about a month ago so they will be picking another one in the last weekend in September. I was with Brother Hiriam Adkins, his brother yesterday and we were trying to find his grandpa's grave here on Narrows Branch, Ky.

Good to talk to you I used to live in Mich for many years and some of my family were members at Little Ida. I also preached there when L E Smith was their moderator years ago.

BBob

Bro. James Reed
07-26-2006, 08:24 PM
Bro. Bob,

Why all the controversy over an indoor baptistry?

Our former building was not built with one, but for cost reasons rather than scriptural reasons. The building in which we currently meet has a baptistry, as do 2 of the other 3 PB churches in Houston. In fact, almost all of the PB churches I can think of have an indoor baptistry.

Bro. James

Brother Bob
07-26-2006, 09:03 PM
Brother James:
I will just have to give you what I think is the reason. The Old Baptist of this area including Old Regular, Primitive, United Baptist and others believed strongly that you had to be baptized as Jesus was in the creek, river etc. A baptistry has always been a no no in all these denominations or at least in this area. We are slowly changing but we are not there yet. Change is something that must happen slowly or you lose the old members and if you don't change you don't gain the younger ones. So, I guess we all do the best we know how. If the creeks had not of got so filthy I guess we never would of changed. I have an inground pool and have used it for years but I am an old brother and don't get jumped on to often but have always worried a little about it. You talking about the Primitive but I remember when they would not of thought of having a baptistry, the ones in this area. I suspect if we ran a history on it we would find that it was a no no with all of them years ago, as the pant wearing and cutting of hair for the sisters. Things have changed over the years and still changing.

old regular
07-27-2006, 04:39 AM
Brother James, I would have to know on which group of Primitive Baptist,you would be refering to.SGA would not be in harmony with the absolute faction or at least their terminology,SGA does currently correspond with PBs and has in the past.We are more for the unity of Old Baptist than for the seperation of them and are closer to the original views of ORB as held originally by the Union and New Salem, they used to seat even non corresponding Old School Baptist,in their former years before the man made walls came up, ORB

Brother Bob
07-27-2006, 03:08 PM
James;
I told you I use my inground pool for baptism but I have only used it for sickness cases so far. One was going in for open heart surgery and cases like that. I still use the creeks and rivers to baptize. I personally feel much better using the creeks and rivers. I have some beautiful pictures of baptisms that way.
BBob,

Bro. James Reed
07-27-2006, 08:17 PM
Bro. Bob,

I can certainly see the beauty of being baptized in a creek/river, but I would be hard-pressed to declare against someone who was baptizing or being baptized in another manner. As long as it's done with water, with full immersion, and by an ordained minister under the direction of a church, that is what counts, to me anyway. Maybe it's a regional thing. I was baptized in a baptistry. My mother was baptized in a swimming pool, and my grandmother was baptized in a tank...no, not the army kind.:smilewinkgrin:

If I had to venture a guess, I would say that the churches in the old days used creeks, rivers, tanks, etc, not because they thought baptistries were unscriptural, but because creeks were free and accessible. When the time came many years later, and Bro. so-and-so wanted to add a baptistry, another brother said they couldn't because grandaddy didn't have one in the church, so it must be wrong. It's kind of sad and a little funny to me how, many times, traditions in a church will become doctrine after a couple generations.

I also know a thing or two about stubborn old brethren.

Many years ago, probably 50 or more, some of the members wanted to add padding to the hard, wooden pews. Well, that nearly split the church in two. Many thought it would be adding to the church. So, the compromised. They padded the lower half only. :laugh: Granddaddy wasn't always right.:thumbsup:

Bro. James Reed
07-27-2006, 08:22 PM
Brother James, I would have to know on which group of Primitive Baptist,you would be refering to.SGA would not be in harmony with the absolute faction or at least their terminology,SGA does currently correspond with PBs and has in the past.We are more for the unity of Old Baptist than for the seperation of them and are closer to the original views of ORB as held originally by the Union and New Salem, they used to seat even non corresponding Old School Baptist,in their former years before the man made walls came up, ORB

old regular,

I am of the right faction of PBs.:smilewinkgrin:

That would be the normal, old, everyday Primitive Baptist variety. We do not fellowship Absoluters or Progressives.

May I ask, with which PBs do you correspond?

Bro. James

bubba jimmy
07-27-2006, 08:39 PM
Little Ida is in the Northern New Salem Association and moderated by Brother Ralph Caudell.


Ah, I don't remember there being a "Northern" version of New Salem years ago. Do you know when it came into being? Or was it always that way?


I used to live in Mich for many years and some of my family were members at Little Ida. I also preached there when L E Smith was their moderator years ago.


I've recently moved from Michigan to Florida. I just realized it still said Michigan in my profile. Anyway, my grandmother first belonged to the Dorton Creek ORB church in the Union Association, but joined the Little Ida church when my family moved to Michigan. Brother Caudill was one of the brothers who preached my mothers funeral over 20 years ago there at Little Ida. She had left the ORB to join another baptist church nearer to where she lived, but her request was to have her funeral at the ORB church so that's what we did.

There are a few things I don't exactly agree with the ORBs on, but that is not of any consequence really. They will always and forever have a special place in my heart and I sure hope to join in the ORB singing one day when we are all one with the Lord in heaven. The singing of the Old Regular Baptists will be a part of me til I draw my last breath.

It's funny, here in Florida a lot of the churches baptize in the ocean. Well, at least it seems funny to me. There are not a lot of clean waterways to use here, and I guess some are put off by the alligators! I don't suppose it matters if the water is salty or fresh. The Lord made a whole lot more of the salty kind.

Brother Bob
07-27-2006, 08:55 PM
bubba Jimmy;
Ever since there has been a little Ida there has been a Northern New Salem Association. My uncle helped set up the churches. I am not one of the real hard ones on where to baptize. I would rather if they are going to have a baptisery that it be on the outside of the church.

James;
I can understand how you might think that it got started that way but it still in this area for the Old Regular Baptist is just not practiced. Now I have even baptized in a bath tub, pool and of course the river and creek. Right now if someone put a baptisery inside of their church they would be asked to take it out and if they refused the Association would cut them off. It happend about 6 years ago in the New Salem Association. I think it has more to do with the Old Regular not wanting to be like other more liberal churches. I have no doubt in my mind if time lasts that it will probably change. First it will be built outside then someone will build a new church with one inside but it will be farther down the rode. I try to look ahead and see what will be tolerable later and not be too hard on it now but that is just me.

bubba jimmy
07-28-2006, 10:03 PM
I should probably clarify, the baptistry at Little Ida is in a hall next to the church, not in the church where worship services are held. They are attached, but you go through a door way to a hall and that's where the baptistry is.

Brother Bob
07-29-2006, 08:32 AM
Bro. James;
Covering the seats brings back memories to me also for we had almost identical same problem. We also went through it again when we put carpet on the floor. What about when we put inside toilet facilities. Since I have moderated this church we have bricked, cathedral ceiling, air conditoning, paved parking, etc. man would I be in trouble. lol

old regular
08-03-2006, 02:05 AM
Brother James, We currrently correspond with the Northwestern Association of Primitive Baptist, we formerly had correspondence with the Sandlick Regular Primitive Baptist whose mother was the New Salem,Indian Bottom started as a union meeting, and eventually became an association, its original churches were members of the Sandlick until a sentiment arose preaching absolute predestination of all things, making God the direct author (not by permissive decree) but direct aurthor of every evil and good event that comes to pass,not all of the Sandlick held this view,and that view died out ,but by that time, there had been to much confusion between those churches to re unite,we were the first Regular Baptist to correspond with them in many years.They now have correspondence with the Burning Springs who did not wan't coresspondence with us or Bethel directly or indirectly, I am told that they are fond of their secret orders ,which we do not allow with in our association(to be held as members).How close Bro. James would your church be in practice and doctrine to the original Baptist,I am told Primitive means first or original, and some of the primitives I have visted would be the true historical Baptist of old, others I have visted, practice and sing and dress like the modern church, yet without Sunday School,or musical insturments,but would be no closer to the original than the missionaries in practice. We also have used brothers from independent PBCs and different associations that we don't correspond with.We currently baptise members in an elementary body of water.I once objected strongly to Little Ida baptising members that way, this was when the issue came to the association floor , I was asked by Elder David Slone to withdraw my objection ,to keep from splitting the NNS association, (Little Ida had asked to install the one they have now.)I withdrew my objection for peace sake only at the time, but I have since seen cases where It would have been better to at least have some place clean to perform baptisms besides a cesspool.The Stone Cole Church had an outdoor one at one time according to my good friend now departed Bro. Banner Mannns, it was many years ago. Bro.Slone

old regular
08-03-2006, 02:20 AM
My home Church is Mt. Zion it was organized as Little Maudie in 1954 (,I believe,)( it was originally in the New Salem and went in the arm to organize the Northern New Salem,Maybe Little Ida was also in the New Salem?? I would have to look it up.As to the question of all Old Regular Baptist getting back together , unlikely, but not immpossible. It could be done by going back to their original doctrinal guidelines,by letting each association take care and work on their own problems,maybe withholding of communion of Churches not keeping good order,but not totally isolating them, by studying their Bibles, praying fasting,forgiving each other,dropping former charges against one anthor, then they could also move the same way toward the old United and Primitive, our forefathers did it and they all didn,t agree on every point of doctrine either. Bro .Slone

Brother Jeremy Slone
08-10-2006, 08:43 AM
I was on the Wikipedia on old regular baptist and they had Little Dove Association metioned per 1989 with 35 members I believe. Does any one know anything about them where they are at. or how their Doctrine and practice is. Does any one know the history on them. I do not believe they armed from New Salem. May be they armed off Burning Springs as New Salem and Mountain association of ORB did. ?

rlvaughn
08-10-2006, 11:15 AM
Brother Jeremy, I don't remember their history offhand, but believe I have one of their minutes. I'll try to remember to look this afternoon.

rlvaughn
08-10-2006, 10:29 PM
Brother Jeremy, I don't personally know the Little Dove Association, so can't really say about their doctrine and practice. But you can possibly tell by knowing with whom they correspond.

Little Dove Association was organized around 1984. In 1991 they had two churches, at least one of which was in Pike County, Kentucky. They were corresponding with the Original Mountain Liberty Association of Old Regular Baptist. They also had a "working relationship" with Pilgrim's Rest Association of Regular Primitive Baptist and the Old Montgomery United Baptist Church. Old Montgomery was a former member of the Little Friendship Association of United Baptist (which evidently had disbanded).

Hope this helps.

Brother Jeremy Slone
08-11-2006, 12:05 AM
Yes it does help, thank you rlvaughn. I know the Original Mt. Liberty we Correspond with them now and heard of Pilgrim Rest Primitive. I also would like to correct my last post on here. I said New Salem and Mountain armed from Burning Springs. Well Mountain armed from North District in 1834 the same one Burning Springs armed from in 1813 I believe. I also think Pilgrims Rest was part of the Split of Burning Springs and changed their name then changed it back to the former if I am not mistaken.

Bro. James Reed
08-11-2006, 06:21 AM
Brother James, We currrently correspond with the Northwestern Association of Primitive Baptist, we formerly had correspondence with the Sandlick Regular Primitive Baptist whose mother was the New Salem,Indian Bottom started as a union meeting, and eventually became an association, its original churches were members of the Sandlick until a sentiment arose preaching absolute predestination of all things, making God the direct author (not by permissive decree) but direct aurthor of every evil and good event that comes to pass,not all of the Sandlick held this view,and that view died out ,but by that time, there had been to much confusion between those churches to re unite,we were the first Regular Baptist to correspond with them in many years.They now have correspondence with the Burning Springs who did not wan't coresspondence with us or Bethel directly or indirectly, I am told that they are fond of their secret orders ,which we do not allow with in our association(to be held as members).How close Bro. James would your church be in practice and doctrine to the original Baptist,I am told Primitive means first or original, and some of the primitives I have visted would be the true historical Baptist of old, others I have visted, practice and sing and dress like the modern church, yet without Sunday School,or musical insturments,but would be no closer to the original than the missionaries in practice. We also have used brothers from independent PBCs and different associations that we don't correspond with.We currently baptise members in an elementary body of water.I once objected strongly to Little Ida baptising members that way, this was when the issue came to the association floor , I was asked by Elder David Slone to withdraw my objection ,to keep from splitting the NNS association, (Little Ida had asked to install the one they have now.)I withdrew my objection for peace sake only at the time, but I have since seen cases where It would have been better to at least have some place clean to perform baptisms besides a cesspool.The Stone Cole Church had an outdoor one at one time according to my good friend now departed Bro. Banner Mannns, it was many years ago. Bro.Slone

Bro. Slone,

When you say "practice and sing and dress like the modern church", what exactly do you mean?

I'm not familiar with the Northwestern Association that you mentioned. I am much more familiar with the churches/Associations in this region of the country.

We oppose absolutism, no-hellism, progressivism, and all other non-biblical stands held by so-called "Primitive" Baptists.

We don't have Sunday School, musical instruments, secret orders, mission boards, etc. Our churches don't have crosses, steeples, "pictures" of Jesus, or million-dollar facilities. We do have a baptistry, as do most PB churches.

Primitive does mean original, and I believe we are still contending for the same old truths in the Old Baptist church that our forefathers did.

God bless you Bro. Slone.

Bro. James

old regular
08-16-2006, 11:50 PM
Brother James ,my reference to modern, would be along the lines of missionary boards, women cutting their hair, wearing men's apparel,immodest dress,singing from notebook song books , secret orders,only allowing one minister per service to preach,paid preachers who recieve a particular salary,baptisms performed on those who the gospel doesn't address, ( very young children) these things were not old school baptist practices originally, but have got into the churches, both Primitive and Old Regular(with the exception of a paid ministry) I have also noted some pastors taking members, without them, telling of an experience of Grace, saying they want to belong to church ,thats good enough, if we are going to go by the name primitive or old regular thats what we should be, not this psuedo-old school baptist we are finding all over the country.The new school baptist have all those things if thats what people want why not go there, and not try to change an old school church into a new school. Brother Slone

old regular
08-17-2006, 12:09 AM
Brother James, I was speaking of OSB churches in general and not your home church, I don't know much about them ,but I am famillar ,with a lot of Primitive Baptists that were not very primitive, but are set up like the missionaries, only they don't have musical instruments,or sunday school, but they will baptize little children, who have no knowledge of what they are doing, one step away from infant baptism, they make no remarks about how christians should dress ,live,etc.....,I love the doctrines of Grace and Election and Predestination,but Saved men and women or also to be zealous of good works, and have duties to perform under the gospel charge, are brothers should preach the whole word of God. The Northwestern association would be more a kin to the Chestnut Knob,Little Lotts Creek, Antioch associations,that started after the war between the states. Bro.Slone

Virginia ORB
08-17-2006, 12:54 PM
Brother Jeremy, I feel that I need to respond to your question because I was the one who added the Little Dove Assoc. to Wikipedia. I obtained a copy of the 1989 minute from the Buchanan County Library in VA. I have not heard of this association before and it may not exist now. The host church that year was the Little Dove Church, Rt. 1441, Raccoon, KY. The moderator that year was Elder Wayne Hall.
brother Keith

old regular
09-14-2006, 02:08 AM
Dear Brothers, The Little Dove Assn. churches went into the Original Mountain Liberty and then into the Solid Rock Association. Little Dove no longer meets as an association. Elder Michael Slone

rlvaughn
09-14-2006, 10:49 AM
Bro. Slone, is the Solid Rock Association Old Regular Baptist or something else? What is its history? Is it fairly new? Thanks.

old regular
09-18-2006, 06:33 AM
Dear Brother, The Solid Rock Association came about through a divison of sorts in the Mountain Liberty, There was a brother named Daryl Newsome whose Church (made up of former NNS,and Union members)lettered to the Original Mt.Liberty, this they did for several years, a question came from the Mountain Association about some of the brothers preaching and being ordained with two living wives even though they were divorced ,it started from there.Most ORB will not use men that are divorced and remarried to preach. Elder Slone

old regular
09-18-2006, 07:03 AM
Dear Brother, Solid Rock has Old Regular Baptist churches and some churches of an independent orgin, they are very friendly people but are much too liberal for the other three factions of Old Regulars,and have no correspondence, their over all manner of worship is after the old regular tradition, they are very open to various divorce cases,and seem to be willing to take in Elders,preachers from all factions of old regulars that get in trouble or have been excluded for divorce and remarriage,they have also added an article of faith concerning an age of accountability,that no old regular association has ever added before,their articles of faith would be more in line with missionary baptist than traditional Old regular baptist, but due to their worship style and preaching, I would consider them an Arminian Old Regular Association with modifications ,they don"t believe you can be saved today and lost tomorrow. Elder Slone

Brother Bob
09-19-2006, 10:04 PM
Jimmy Dale said to tell you hi Mike. So, hi

old regular
09-20-2006, 12:52 AM
Brother Bob , Send my greetings and christian love,likewise to Brother Jimmy Dale, one of the Union's most able ministers. I hope all your associations have gone well this year. New Salem Assn. meets this coming weekend. I would attend, but I have to help with the Mt. Moriah Church near Royalton,Ky. Bethel had a wonderful Association these year, very peaceful, good services.The majority of the members are very old, not unlike most of our associations during this time. Bro.Mike

Brother Bob
09-20-2006, 06:56 AM
Bro. Mike;
All the Associations went really good this year and I will be at New Salem on Friday. I had to drive to Hindman to pickup my new books yesterday. New Salem has to pick a new Assistant this year. I was at the Union on Friday and they put me on the stand for Saturday with Brother Robert Haney and others so I had to go back on Saturday also. Jimmy Dale said you might be there so I looked for you but I guess you didn't come.

Brother Bob
09-20-2006, 06:34 PM
http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/music/musik33.gif
*THERE IS NO OTHER FOUNTAIN*

I will draw my strength from Jesus.
As I lay upon my bed.
I will take my comfort from Him.
I will find in Him my rest.

Chorus:
For there is no other fountain.
Where I can be more satisfied.
Than in the arms of Christ my Savior.
No blessings I will be denied.

All pain will leave my aching body.
As His sweet healing virtue flows.
Just ask God in faith believing.
By His will it shall be so.

Chorus:
For there is no other fountain.
Where I can be more satisfied.
Than in the arms of Christ my Savior.
No blessings I will be denied.

Oh, that I may not ever leave Him.
For there is no other place to go.
He has the words of life eternal.
From Him the healing waters flow.

Chorus:
For there is no other fountain.
Where I can be more satisfied.
Than in the arms of Christ my Savior.
No blessings I will be denied.

old regular
09-21-2006, 02:11 AM
Brother Bob, I usually vist the Union on Saturday evening, but I was staying with Elder and Mrs. Trinkle Mullins and they go to bed early, his wife had broke her hip recently and they reside in Pound a little further from the assoc. grounds.I like the people in the Union and New Salem, I was never at Sardis during their association, I have visted some of their Churches. I made one trip with Bro. John Jude, Bro.Edwin Hay and Isom Hannah visted with me and preached in my home when I lived in Plymouth, Ohio. I thought alot of Elder Joe Evans also.I knew several of the Elders in the Sardis and preached with them before the split over wine and order in the NNS. We did not want to cause any confusion for the sister Assns. we were advised to call ourselves NNS and try to letter to the other associations so the truth of the matter would be exposed, and try to force Northern to recant their work, but I had been among them too long and knew how, the politics of that association went , so We chose peace for us and them. Bro.Slone

old regular
10-16-2006, 06:12 PM
All ORB associations and one Primitive Baptist association ,with which we correspond with went well, no troubles noted, good preaching and fellowship.I did not attend the Mountain Association #1 or #2 or the Thorton Union but I heard good reports from both of them.The Little Zion Association of Regular Baptist corresponds with the Primitive Baptist in Indiana and no other Regulars.Their articles of faith would be in line with the articles of faith,carried by our corresponding associations. Elder Michael Slone a member of the Sovereign Grace Association.

bubba jimmy
10-17-2006, 12:33 PM
Where does the need for all the ORB associations come from? The Union and New Salem associations are in communication with each other, for example, so why do they need to be separate associations? Is there some Biblical basis for doing this?

old regular
10-19-2006, 10:01 PM
The biblical basis for an association, comes from the Jerusalem council,that churches may work together as an advisory council. Years ago the associations would arm off other associations, when churches were planted in different locations further away from the main body,they would district them out using landmarks ,example( all churches south of the Ky river to form a new association)then delegates from the newly formed association would travel to other associations of like faith and order to establish correspondence on behalf of the churches in their association,rather than each church sending delegates to all the associations,this took a large burden off the churches especially when travel was limted to foot and hoseback, often different associtions held to different practices than some of the others held to, it was much easier and harmonious for churches that practice alike to be in an association together.Today the Union Association has churches which have baptistries ,while the New Salem withdrew from a church for the same practice.All Old Regulars do not practice nor hold the same doctrine as do others, while they all would agree on some issues,they are a very divided lot on other issues like predestination,election,light and life,double married,dress etc.............. Bro. Mike

old regular
10-19-2006, 10:23 PM
All Old Regular Baptist Associations did not come from the New Salem,and those that did contained churches from other bodies, and splits.The name is found on tombstones on the east coast on graves that are much older than the New Salems 1825 history.The old part was not originally capitilized but became so after some of those who called themselves Regular Baptist began to adopt missionary board practices. The Mud River came from the Pocatalico Asssn. of Paticular Baptist, The Mountain from the North District, New Salem from Burning Springs, some of the Old Freindship from the Pineville District of Primitive Baptist, some of the Union churches also came from Regular Primitive Baptist. The Stone Coal Church in the New Salem was supposed to have come from the Licking Assn. of Paticular Baptist.Indian Bottom developed from a union meeting of churches formerly in the Sandlick District Assn. The New Salem was very much the forerunner for quite some time, but if the founders and even the brothers who sancationed the split with the EVU,Absolute Predestination Regular Primitive Baptist where here today, they would not know that she is an old Regular Baptist Assn. her doctrine is that far from what they established. Some of the singing they might identfy with ,but not the doctrine, unless they where over around Big Mud area. Bro.Slone

bubba jimmy
10-20-2006, 09:40 PM
Thank you for the education. I grew up going to the ORB church, but I never knew how the internal workings of the organizations were established. I very much enjoy reading all that the contributors to this thread have to say about the Old Regular Baptists.

Brother Bob
10-21-2006, 09:10 PM
Very good old regular;
The reason most people use our History as New Salem is because they only go look back so far and if so they the run into New Salem.

old regular
10-23-2006, 11:10 PM
The New Salem Assn. has a long and very interesting history, and is considered the mother association Of Old Regular Baptist but it must be noted two of her daughters are Regular Primitive, the Mates Creek and Sandlick, her mother the Burning Springs has been United then Regular and then Regular Primitive, New Salem gave off the Union and the Philadelphia,Kyova, and Northern New Salem,I have been unable to produce documentation that she gave off an arm to the Indian Bottom or the Sardis, these associations developed from divides, there is mention of a Sulphur Springs Association that went into some kind of disorder ,but I believe they came from the Union, the Union also gave off the Friendship assn. according to one account, which churches were involved with the Elkhorn and Pineville Assns. also the Thorton Union came from the Union,Thorton Union gave off the Little Dove (I have not been able to confrim this)I believe those Churches were former Union Churches that left,I know that Thorton Union gave off Original Mountain Liberty, and Cumberland, Original Mountain Liberty gave off Sovereign Grace ,two of the Sovereign Grace Churches had declared a non-fellowship with the Northern New Salem due to them allowing a sister to church Family of Love, to query the association, about the way Mt.Zion took communion with wine, without sending a commitee, to Mt.Zion and then allowing false reports about New Mt.Zion to be heard and told, and not allowing the assistant moderator of Mt.Zion to speak, the moderator of Mt.Zion was in the hospital with a life threating pneumonia, unable to attend the association and unaware of the actions of the Family of Love and Elder Roy Caudill moderator of the NNS. This is an example of an association not being a help.Bethel Association came about after an illegal action of the Union assn. when it violated its consitution.Mountain Valley was made up of Churches that formerly belong to Thorton Union, and got into several disagreements with that body,However a non-fellowship was not declared in this instance.It was latter told that if the Mt.Zion and New Mt.Zion had only dropped correspondence with the NNS,and then sought assistance from some of the sister associations the rift, would not have been so large, but because they declared non-fellowship and declared the NNS in disorder, and stated they would not seat a commitee appointed illegally by the NNS to vist the Mt.Zion nor did they intend to leave the Bible out of their dispute and take grape juice, there appears no reconcilation with the NNS. These are only examples of what has taken place in the Old Regular Baptist Associations. While many times the split is officially over some action violating the Assn. consititution, most of the time,there is also a doctrinal position being the root cause, usually between ministers,and it grows and evolves into something else. Most ORB articles of Faith are worded very Calvinistic, yet most of the ministers in the majority of the churches at this time are a arminian- calvninst mix, unless you look at SGA,Bethel, Mud River(one active church,) Original Mountain Liberty,Mountain Valley, and some of the Thorton Union.However I would not say that the majorty in the other associations are total freewillers,most do not believe that an individual can believe and repent at human will,but that sinners are called.When I was among them, I did not hear anyone talk about making a decision, or accepting Christ. Choosing God had stated to take, with some brothers , but the older Elders I knew,preached Bible and stated Christ ,"whosoever believeth...." not whosoever chooseth, they stated people could accept the Lord but that didn't save them ,they were saved because God chose them and Accepted them through the beloved.and through his grace they were made. Currently I don't know what the majority hold to, Brother Bob would be more able to give you that information.He is a member of that chain of corespondence. I don't know how one would reach Elder Paul Vance or Elder Edwin Hay, also I don't have knowledge of who the pastor of the Sardis Church is, I knew and loved Elder Joe Evans, who was the moderator of that church, when I last visted.Some of those churches pulled out of the Sardis assn. over different isssues but none of them corespond with us, there again, ask Bro. Bob he can most likely answer ththose questions. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
10-24-2006, 03:35 AM
We all preach that the "Spirit of God is striving with all men to repent" and you must believe that Jesus is the Christ then God chooses to save you by His Grace and through faith. I don't think we differ from the Old time doctrine but admittedly there are those who go too far in our Associations in choosing without explaining that Salvation is entirely of the Lord.
This is the article that we believe in:

ARTICLE 5. We believe that sinners are called to repentance and believe in the Gospel and regeneration of the soul and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and none shall fall away and be lost.


If you notice, believing is before the regeneration and that is where we differ from the Primitive and is the only Article that is not accepted by them. We do believe that God's Spirit strives with man but we believe "all men" and belief is before regeneration.
As far as Edwin Hay and Paul Vance they are by themselves with maybe one church out of the Philedelphia. The Rebecca church where Bro Edwin and Bro Paul are at pulled away because of double marriage. I was among the brethren who went to their church and personally tried to work with them but to no avail. Bro Edwin comes to the church I moderate "Narrows Branch" at least once a year and is a very close friend of mine along with his wife Polly. I also enjoy friendship with Brother Paul Vance and his family. Brother Edwin considers their church and I as being very close in beliefs and so do I.


The Sardis Church is Pastored by Elder Billie Brunfield and they have 3 churches that correspond as far as I know and they did withdraw from us but not over any thing you would accept Bro. Slone. Brother Joe Evans passed away. They were using sisters in positions where the Bible does not support.

Human nature has cause most splits including The Sardis but not on our part.

Brother Bob
10-24-2006, 03:46 AM
As Bro. old regular has already stated that Mate's Creek was a arm off of The New Salem Association and The Brushy Fork with 2 more churches split off of Mate's Creek to form the Sardis Association because the brethren felt that Mate's Creek brethren had left the original doctrine of predestination and became Hyper-Calvinist doctrine in their beliefs. Below is that split:



ORDERS and ADVICE



of the




SARDIS ASSOCIATION



OF



OLD REGULAR BAPTIST



THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST






1893 to 1989

















ORDERS AND ADVICE
of the
SARDIS ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST
1893 to 1989

In humble obedience to an Order of the Sardis Association, Saturday's session, Article 20, in the year of 1989, and with all humility to our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who makes be able, I set forth hereinafter all of the Orders that are still in effect of our beloved Sardis Association from its organization in the year of 1893 to the year of 1989, as found in the Annual Minutes thereof.


The word "Advice" was added by me for the sake of complete­ness because, in my opinion, all of the Items set forth in the Minutes may not properly be classified as an "Order". Whenever possible, exact quotations are shown.


Amendments to the Constitution, Articles of Faith and Rules of Decorum are not shown. Orders that have been reprinted are shown in the year first printed. Orders that have been amended or changed are shown in the year of latest change.


Your Clerk,
Ralph W. E. Varney, Jr.













August 5, 1893
Brushy Fork Church W.W. Fields, Moderator
P.D. Bevins, Clerk



RECORD OF THE SARDIS ASSOCIATION


Organized in the year 1893 upon the following Faith, to wit:

We, the Churches of Jesus Christ of Regular Baptist, are consti­tuted on the following Faith:

1st: We believe in only one true and living God, the Creator of the heavens and earth and all things that are therein contained.

2nd: We believe in Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God, who is Head and King of His Church.

3rd: We believe in the Holy Ghost, the sealer and applier of the redemption purchased by Christ.

4th: We believe in the Father; Son and Holy Ghost and these three are One.

5th: We believe the Scripture of the Old and New Testaments to be the infallible Word of God and take it for our only rule of faith and practice and nothing is to be added to it or taken from it.
6th: We believe in the free atonement of Jesus Christ and that He tasted death for every man and that salvation is offered to all men and women upon the terms of the Gospel.

7th: We believe that repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are necessary previous to baptism, and that by immersion is the only right way of administering the ordinance.

8th: We believe that Christ has but one true Gospel Church and that it will finally persevere through grace to eternal glory.

9th: We believe in the Communion of the Lord's Supper, that is, taking of the bread and wine, by the Church of Jesus Christ in commemoration of the death and suffering of the Son of God until His Second Coming.

10th: We believe that feet washing is an ordinance of Jesus Christ and ought to be observed and kept up by His Church until His Second Coming.

11th: We believe that Jesus Christ is the first resurrection from the dead and that He lives forever.
12th: We believe in the resurrection of the just and unjust.

13th: We believe in the final punishment of the wicked and in the eternal happiness of the righteous.

We, the Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ, composed of duly authorized delegates and members from the Brushy Fork, Sardis and Big Branch Churches, convened with the Brushy Fork Church on August 5, 1893 and organized by electing W.W. Fields, Moderator; and P.D. Bevins, Clerk.

Upon motion, the Moderator appointed Brothers G.W. May­nard and W.L. Smith as Committee to report the order of business for this day. The report of said Committee was read, approved and the Committee discharged.

Upon motion and second, the Association declared the follow­ing to be the reasons for founding a new Association and they, in like manner, adopted the annexed Constitution and Articles of Faith.

We, the Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ, convened with the Brushy Fork Church and composed as a working body for the transaction of business of duly authorized delegates from the Big Branch, Sardis and Brushy Fork Churches, deeming it necessary on account of a material difference of opinion existing between our­selves and other Brethren of the Mates Creek Churches to organize an Association separate and apart from our differing and yet highly esteemed Brethren in which we may live in harmony and perfect unison with each other.

NOW, BE IT KNOWN, in the presence of these witnesses and before Almighty God, the Supreme Judge of the World and all our actions:

First: That we do not object to the outline of Doctrine as we understand it to have been written in the different Constitutions of the Churches composing the Mates Creek Association.

Second: That while we believe no one independent of God's Almighty Power can be instrumental in the salvation of his soul, we do believe that man is responsible for his deeds, which thing we understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Third: That we object to the Doctrine held by our Mates Creek Brethren that man as a created being is compelled by God Eternal in all things to do just as he does, whether it be good or evil.
Fourth: We believe that man in the Creation was given limited power and that good and evil were set before him with the possibility of his choosing either. Therefore, we believe that when Adam par­took of evil he did so not by compulsion but by choice, which thing we also understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Therefore, these things being essential in regard to the prosper­ity of the Church, and as members holding these different views cannot possibly live in true Brotherly love within the same Associa­tion, we thought it better both for our Absolute Predestination Brethren and ourselves that we organize a separate Association. Not that we object to the original Doctrine of the Mates Creek Associa­tion but that we believe that our Predestination Brethren have departed from these same Doctrines.

But to them and all others be it understood, with God as our Judge, that it is with malice toward none that we withdraw from the Mates Creek Association and adopt the following Constitution for our Church government, together with the foregoing Articles of Faith for each of the Churches composing our Body:

It has been said the Old doctrine did not include salvation being offered to all but as you can see in article 6 it was believed by the brethren as far back as 1893.

old regular
10-25-2006, 11:06 PM
No old Regular Baptist association believes that infants go to hell, there are some Primitive Baptist that hold that position, and some that are unsure, I read an article on one of their websites,talking about age of accountabilty,that will prove, the latter(unsure of where infants go). All Old Regulars hold footwashing as an ordinance of the church to be practiced as part of the Lord's supper,not all Primitive Baptist wash feet,all do not line their hymns,most of the Old Regular Singing is lined, most Old Regulars Believe in Special atonement, that Christ Blood Was purposed to save the believer,and those individuals that God chose not to impute sin unto,and these believers make up the elect, some Old Reg. Baptist hold to a general atonement(but not in the way General Baptist Do) some would hold to a strict particular atonement identical to the majorty of Primitive Baptist.There are some Primitive Baptist Articles of Faith written to match Special Atonement,there are also brothers who think special and particular are the same, just a dfferent play on words.Primitive Baptist would be more likely to exclude a brother for differing from their view of the atonement.The Regulars would generally be more tolerant, they still honor the agreement made with the Seperate Baptist, that the preaching that Christ tasted death for every man shall be no bar to communion,the Primitve have not honored that agreement, even though most of them descended from the churches that made those agreements ,you will find those associations listed in their history,the ORB would differ on the word every,among themselves ,some will say it means every man that believes or that has been elected or every man in the body of Christ,or every man in the world, but I don't know of anyone being excluded over the atonement in my lifetime, I would not fellowship brethern who believe the atonement saves the world universally nor would any Old Regular general.special, or particular.Bro.Slone

old regular
10-25-2006, 11:27 PM
The article that states,they (Primitive)are unsure about infants,is the one on the age of accountability, do a search under old line messenger,some of his comments are quite disturbing,especially the last paragraph .I would much rather fellowship with people who have a false notion about there being an age of accountability, than someone, who thinks like this.I know some Primitive Baptist ministers who feel the same way that I do, you can not judge whole groups of people over what one person states, but I have heard of others, in what are supposed to be old line Primitive Baptist Churches advocate likewise. P.S I dont believe in an age of accountability but I do believe that men and women are accountable for their deeds, and their actions .Brother Slone

old regular
10-26-2006, 12:21 AM
Brother Bob, can you give us the current Articles of Faith of the Sardis Association. This would show how much they have or haven't changed or if the brethern tried to define their beliefs more clearly as the years passed by, I know the New Salem carried the Burning Spring Articles then switched to close to their current, Do you know if the NS association approved the change and what year it took place?. Brother Slone

Brother Bob
10-26-2006, 08:21 AM
Here you go Bro. Slone; I do believe you come to an age to know to do good and do it not or in other words "The Commandments came sin revived and I died". I believe infants and children are not accountable for their wrongs until they become of age. Can't find in the Bible where the scripture was to infants but always to men/women.

The New Salem are identical to ours!

ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE
SARDIS ASSOCIATION
ARTICLE 1. We believe in only one true and living God; the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost; and these three are one, equal in power, essence and glory.
ARTICLE 2. We believe the scripture of the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized King James Version of the Bible are the written words of God and are the only rules of faith and practice.
ARTICLE 3. We believe in the doctrine of election by grace, for by grace are ye saved through faith.
ARTICLE 4. We believe in the doctrine of original sin and of man's inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, therefore the Saviour is needed for our redemption.
ARTICLE 5. We believe that sinners are called to repentance and believe in the Gospel and regeneration of the soul and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and none shall fall away and be lost.
ARTICLE 6. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
ARTICLE 7. We believe that baptism is the ordinance of God's Church on earth and the mode IMMERSION, back foremost, so as to cover all over.
ARTICLE 8. We believe that the Lord's Supper is the command of the Saviour, and that by use of bread and the fruit of the vine, and feet washing should be kept up until his second coming by his believers.
ARTICLE 9. We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust, and that the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked shall be eternal.
ARTICLE 10. We believe that no Minister has the right to administer the ordinances and commands of the Gospel except such as are regularly ordained and baptized, and that by immersion by a legal administrator of the Gospel comes under the hands of a regularly chosen presbytery of the Church.
ARTICLE 11. We believe it to be the duty of all Church members to contribute for defraying all reasonable expenses of the Church, never forgetting the poor according to their several abilities.
ARTICLE 12. We believe that every doctrine that goes to encourage or indulge people in their sins or cause them to settle down on anything short of saving faith in Christ for salvation is erroneous, and such doctrine shall be rejected by us.
ARTICLE 13. We believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is a congregation of faithful believers in Christ who have obtained fellowship with the Lord and one another, and have given themselves to the Lord and have agreed to keep up a Godly discipline according to the rules of the Gospel.
ARTICLE 14. We believe that Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and the government thereof is upon His Shoulders.
ARTICLE 15. We believe that a sanctioned marriage of God is between a man and a woman only. Also, we believe in receiving members into our fellowship that follow the natural dating relationship that leads to holy matrimony between a man and a woman only: thereby, preserving the family unit of father, mother and children. Ephesians 5:22,23 and 28, St. Mark 10:6,7,8 and Romans 1:26 and 27.
ARTICLE 16. None of the above Articles shall be considered as to hold with particular election and reprobation so as to make God partial, directly or indirectly, nor to injure any of the children of men, nor shall any of those Articles be altered without legal notice and free consent.

deacon jd
10-27-2006, 01:46 PM
I have a question about the Old Regulars. It is my understanding that they do not believe in Sunday School because that it was not established by the apostles. While I must admit that it is true that it is not found in the Bible I do believe that bible teaching is. What would be wrong with having Bible study no matter what you want to call it? I am not trying to argue I really am curious whether this is true or not, and if it is then why?

Brother Bob
10-27-2006, 06:44 PM
You know Deacon;
In the old days the children went to church every time the grownups went and they did learn enough to draw them back when they got older. We have lost that for very few young come anymore and frankly has me worried about membership. I may be alone in this but I do worry for when I was a child there was a group that came to our public schools and sang christian songs and told little stories about Jesus and I loved it. I do have the order where it was outlawed from our church back in the 20's I think and it was because of the teachers of Sunday schools were not called and ordained of God and the Association felt therefore they should not be teaching the word.
I will be the first to admit we must get to our young or we will fade away. I don't have that much longer on this earth but hope in someway we do reach the young people. I don't believe in reaching them with parties, basketball and such but to tell them about Jesus would be a good thing.

old regular
10-27-2006, 11:38 PM
Old Regular Baptist believe, that God places the responsibility of bringing children up in the fear and admonition of the Lord,belongs to the parents,we believe that children have a sinful nature by birth, and know how to do wrong, without any teaching, we because of that fallen nature , must teach them morals of right and wrong, the conscience is also fallen, it can accuse or excuse, foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, Proverbs tells us alot about children and how they must be corrected,etc.. the churches duty is to preach and to teach all that come under the sound of the gospel,we have no example of placing children in seperate classrooms away from their parents in worship,God has one gospel and there is food there for the young as well as the old.if they have the Spirt,and ears to hear with ,it will bring blessings upon them, if they have not recieved a hearing, then the moral message of the truth will benefit their natural life, children learning scripture is not harmful,but it takes the same Spirt that wrote it, to understand it, for now it is just a book of rules but after God Quickens them its a book filled with life.I was raised by an old Regular Baptist, my Dad was a lay member, he read the bible to us at a very young age,we had family prayer in our home,sang hyms, I went to long church services, I saw the effects of the Spirt upon people, I was taught more by example in those meetings than, I ever learned by the letter, I saw women who lived in poverty, poor in this world's goods who looked like they had nothing by nature, when the gospel trump begin to sound they forgot all that poverty, and would rise to their feet and begin to shout prasies to their king and tell of his mercy and grace and act like children of the King, and I never forgot it, and as a child I wondered what they must feel, I saw them wash each others feet, baptisms, I can tell you sermons I heard as a child and who preached them, old time songs and who sung them. The Lords voice spoke to me when I was 16. I heard that voice and was rasied from the dead state I was in by nature,believed that he is a rewarder of them that dilgently seek him, was led by God goodness to repentence through a Godly Sorrow given a lively hope in Christ, joined. the Pleasant View Church in 1980 at 17 years old.We do not believe that being a christian is something man can cultivate through a man made system but rather by being borned again ,Eternal Life is a gift of God ,that is not of works(mans anyway ).Why we believe in instructing our children this has nothing to do with their eternal salvation,nor do we think we can pray them into heaven, a carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God,the natural man recieveth not the things that be of the spirt neither can he know them.That why we don't have preachers schools to teach someone how to preach, we believe it is neither learned of man nor taught of man but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. In the SGA some of our churches have more young people than old people, and I am very thankful for it, the Elders at that church spend alot of time teaching as well as preaching from the pulpit, they meet at each others houses and teach also ,like Paul ,I taught you publickly and from house to house, This church has services every Sunday evening and on the 2nd sun morn.and I believe thats a good thing, not all of our churches can do this yet.Regular Baptist should have seperated their children from the public schools when they started down the secular humanistic road and threw God,s name out, they could have easily used their church buildings and have given their children a more God centered education, at Blessed Hope several of the members home school, and in the Rock Fork area Regular Baptist are involved with an independent Christ centered school, not as an auxilliary of the church but seperate, using the churches buildings to teach in. This I have no objection to seeing how the public schools have went down the broad road, and they spend more time with our children than we do.When I joined PV there were a lot of young people, many of them became distraught over the fighting and politics of the Old Regulars and left, some still remain, but this still remains an issue. Old Regular Baptist won't preach with each other even at funerals,this has caused a lot of hurt, they have preached against horseshoes ,playing ball,etc... yet most of them have televisions( not all) that condem those who play games with ther children now granted there can be a wrong spirt in sports activities and losing would be the christian thing to do, but television can do much harm if not guarded, a lot more harmful than horseshoes.The different factions of Old Regular have no official communication with one anthor, and often talk negative about each other , in an unchartiable way this hurts old and alike, we do not provide entertainment in our churches for the flesh to enjoy and many go to the false churches that do.Sunday School would be adding to the word of God, teaching would be in keeping with the word of God and should be do in a bilblical manner. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
10-28-2006, 12:05 AM
Well, I lived the same kind of life and would not change it for the world. That being said, all of the Elders I know are concerned about the falling membership of our churches and I lay awake at night trying to come up with an answer to help us gain more members but in the gospel way. Again, as old regular has said and so did I that we were fortunate to be raised so as we did learn some of the gospel teachings. Unfortunately our young as a whole are not receiving the same kind of teaching of the Gospel as we did. My children as I have three all joined the Old Regular because I made them go when they were young and it stuck with them. I also don't preach when I come to the stand as a lot of our preachers to for them to go anywhere that it does not matter. Well, it does matter to me and I for one do not preach that and never have. Its not I don't believe that there are saved in other churches and I do not say all for there are some that are so far off that I don't feel free to make that statement.
We can't walk around with our heads in the sand. We must wake up and try to help ourselves in membership. Maybe its the times and we are almost to the end where Jerusalem will become desolate, I don't know for only God knows that. Again, I would be failing in my calling if I were not concerned about bringing in members to the church. I know it takes God to add to the church but we just stated that the life we lived played a big part in both old regular and myself coming to the Lord. God help us to do what is right in his sight. I am not for Sunday schools like churches have today but do believe we need to have more days where we just serve the children and during that time have some ordained person teach them about Jesus and have them sing some religious songs at the church itself. We have no excuse where we just meet one weekend a month at each church. I look at our own church and see very few young anymore. Again, may God guide my mind to do what He would have me to do. Just some thoughts on the matter.

bubba jimmy
10-28-2006, 08:14 AM
David wrote in the Psalms "O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works. Now also when I am old and greyheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come."

If the children receive and understand the gospel from sitting under the preaching of the gospel, then we have fullfilled what David cried out for. The Lord allows us to tary long enough to declare His strength and power to the next generation.

Let me comment on my personal experience. I attended the Dorton Creek and Little Ida Old Regular Baptist churches as a child. I never understood anything at all about the Lord from being there. I listened to the music, and I heard the praise and worship of the people through that. The preaching did not mean much to me as a child. Where I learned of the Lord was from my mother, and my grandmother, and my great-grandmother. And in the Sunday School of the church my mother attended. That did not stick with me as a young person, but when my life came down to the depths of despair and I had nothing and nobody to turn to, I knew who who it was who was reaching out to me in that moment. That was because somebody had taught me when I was young in a way that I could understand.

Scripture does not tell us about the children and what they were doing when Paul and the apostles and the saints were preaching the gospel in the first churches. Jesus did say to let the little children come unto Him. Sometimes I think it is man and his pride that gets in the way of things, rather than following the heart of our Lord in these things.

Brother Bob
10-28-2006, 08:38 AM
You may be right bubby jimmy. My mother taught me also and I am sure that old regular's mother taught him. You may of not got anything from the service but the fact that I knew they had something I didn't stuck with me. As far as Little Ida, don't know how far you go back but there was Sid Hudson, L E Smith, Roy Caudill as moderators and others I knew. Dorton I know several there also and we did call one brother from there, Jerry Estep but he ran off with a young girl, I don't know if you know him or not. Where in Fla do you live and have you ever went to any of the Old Regulars down there? I wish every home had a old time christian mother teaching her young but unfortunately that is not the case. I guess we could just sit back and wait but I doubt if that is what the Lord wanted us to do.

bubba jimmy
10-28-2006, 12:52 PM
I believe Sid Hudson was the moderator back in the 1960's at Little Ida. Isn't Brother Caudill still the moderator there? I remember some interesting things about Sid Hudson in particular, but I'll not go into it here. I don't recall Jerry Estep or who the moderators were at Dorton, but I remember Boyd Smallwood and Paul Mattingly and some of the other preachers. My great-grandpa was an ORB preacher until he died - Mahlon Burke - but I don't know what church he belonged to. He died when I was too young to remember him really.

Brother Bob
10-28-2006, 03:35 PM
Yes, Brother Caudill is still Moderator at Little Ida but is no longer Moderator of Northern New Salem Association. Bro. Buddy Carty is Moderator of Association now.
I know about Sid Hudson, I am 67 myself. They have been trying to get me to come to Dorton for some time. I hope to get there sometime. I have a brother-in-law who lives around Daytona and a sister-in-law who lives in Ft. Myers Fla.

bubba jimmy
10-29-2006, 01:46 PM
I neglected to answer your other question. I live on the central Atlantic coast area of Florida near Kennedy Space Center. No, I wasn't aware of any ORB churches in Florida. Do you know where?

Brother Bob
10-29-2006, 04:08 PM
Union Association
1. Naomi
Hollister, Fla
Clerk
Randy Ratliff 352-546-5056
165 Ratliff Trail, Interlachen, fla. 32148

2. Little Ruth
Clerk
Billy Hutchings 904-284-9686
3264 Manhattan Av.
Green Cove Springs, Fl 32043

Sardis Association
1. Southern Home
Sparr, Fl
Clerk
Bruce P. Forsyth
P.O. 396
Sparr, Fl 32192
Moderator
William Adair
4358 N.E. 19th Ave
Ocala, Fl 34479
Phone 352-629-7888

2. Okeechobee
Clerk
Ronald Knox
316 Holiday Blvd
Clewiston, Fl 33440
Moderator
Stanley Campbell Sr
Phone 352-368-3998

May be others can't find them right now but some of these brethren can tell you where they all are. I was at Coral Beech once which is close to you and went from there to the Southern Home Church. Not sure I spelled Cora right though, but sure you will know.

Virginia ORB
10-30-2006, 03:38 PM
I have found three other churches besides what Brother Bob found:

Union Association
Crystal Springs Church
40122 Mason Rd., Zephyrhills, FL

Clerk: Tony Mosley 813-715-1386

New Salem Association
Myrtle Church, Melbourne, FL

Clerk: Auttis Cox 321-676-2529

Bethel Association
Mary Elizabeth Church, Hollister, FL

Clerk: Bob Branham P.O. Box 201, Hollister, FL 32147

Brother Bob
10-30-2006, 06:44 PM
I wonder all the time how many people are on Baptist Board that are right around me here in Eastern Kentucky.

Hi Virginia; I saw your moderator and I think Assistant Moderator at the funeral of Elder Hiriam Adkins the other day. I sat beside of Brother Elwood during the service. It was good to see him again. I had not seen him for several years.

Virginia ORB
10-31-2006, 07:28 AM
Yes, I heard Brother Elwood and Brother Jim were at Brother Hiriam's funeral. I have a lot of respect for Brother Elwood for being able to guide the churches and members peacefully through difficult circumstances and problems.

Brother Bob, again thanks for mailing me those minutes from the Sardis.

Brother Keith Deel

Brother Bob
10-31-2006, 08:11 AM
You are welcome and I respect Brother Elwood also and have for many years. Sad what happened but one day it will be alright.

bubba jimmy
10-31-2006, 10:15 AM
Wow, I'm surprised to see how many ORB churches are in Florida. It looks like the Myrtle church is the one closest to me. I may just try to look them up one of these days, if I can find out when they meet.

Brother Bob, I suspect there are more people from right around you on this board that those who are still there. Just judging from how many ORB churches have been established as far north as Michigan and as far south as Florida tells you how much migration has gone on. I was born in Pikeville and my family were all from Dorton, and I still get through that area every two or three years. But it would be hard to try to live there given that I'm still young enough to have to work to make a living for my family. My papaw was a coal miner, but I don't think it made its way into my blood. It's hard to make a living in Pike County, but it used to be a lot harder. Of course when I go back there nowadays I hardly recognize anything because of how they tore everything up building US-23.

But I'm way off the topic now, so I'll shut up...

Brother Bob
10-31-2006, 07:50 PM
bubba;
It don't take too long to go to Southern Home from where you are at if you get a chance. Most of them know me over there. I don't know about Myrtle but I know some of their members know me. There is a sister Lowe there and her son.

old regular
10-31-2006, 11:56 PM
Brothers I believe its Bro.Ralph Caudill who was the moderator of the Little Ida Church, he has never been moderator of the NNS that was his cousin Roy.Indian Bottom has or had a Church in Floridia also.The pastor/moderator of Mary Elizabeth is Elder Hansford Short JR telephone # 813)-858-3474 Lakeland, Fl. I am with Brother Bob all churches are not the same, one is not as good as the other, especially if one is given to error and false doctrine.We all agree our children must be taught, and they need to see more love manifested between the members, I think the stand is the best place for preaching and teaching and from house to house,parents need to turn the television off, and talk with their children. I do not believe this will make christians, but when God awakes them from their dead state,and places a hunger and thirst in their bosom, they may look and go to the Old Regulars vs the modern church, which many ORB's children have done.Some brethern say well none of them were children of Grace anyway, or they would not have joined up with this or that outfit, but I don 't believe that has always been the case. I do believe when you have been raised it and taught it.It still there no matter what they call themselves ,they need to drop their pride and come on home. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
11-01-2006, 06:29 AM
You are right old regular, it is Brother Ralph Caudill instead of Roy. I talked with a cousin in Michigan this week and I made the same mistake with him but he straighten me out for he had just talked with Brother Ralph on the phone.

old regular
11-02-2006, 06:37 PM
There are now three New Hope associations, The Elbert Howard /Albert King side, The Raymond Lycans side, The Teddy Evans side. The last two have seperated over the question of the innocent party in a divorce,being allowed to remarry a clean companion after church membership, the Sovereign Grace association would allow the remarriage, but would not allow, anyone with two living wives to preach or be a deacon(two living means ex-wife/current wife).Some churches in the Indian Bottom would allow the innocent party to preach but not be ordained. Bro. Slone

old regular
11-02-2006, 06:42 PM
Brother Edwin Hay and the Rebbecca Church belong to no association, but the do work with the Mt.Olivet ORB ,And an Old United Baptist Church. I spoke to him by telephone, his wife Polly is not able to travel much.Elder Hay has a good knowledge of the histories of the Old Regular Baptist especialy the Sardis Association. I have always liked him. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
11-02-2006, 07:21 PM
Yes, Bro Edwin Hay and Sister Polly are the greatest. He is a highly educated man with a Doctor degree. I doubt that he will ever come back to the Sardis but if Brother Ed Runyon were still moderator of the Rebecca Church they would never of left. You don't know the full story on that case and it really wasn't Brother Edwin's fault but was led by others.

Virginia ORB
11-03-2006, 08:29 AM
Brother Mike, tell me about the Solid Rock ORB Association. I've heard of it, but do not know much about it.

By the way, we met at the Little Freedom Church where my grandmother is a member at.

Bro. Keith Deel

old regular
11-08-2006, 06:24 PM
The Solid Rock Association is made up of churches that are called Regular Baptist, that formerly belonged to the Mountain Liberty Association, others churches in that association were community churches of which I do not know their orgin. The leadership and several of the churches left, the ML association, after Mountain Liberty was dropped by the Mountain Association over preaching men that have more than one living wife( otherwise have been divorced and remarried and more than one of their wives are living).These men had been ordained prior to their churches becoming a member church of Mountain Liberty. Brother Elmer took the whole church and these men with it, it started a stir, even with associations that used the innocent party but would not ordain them, it was also told, that these churches felt that Mountain Liberty was moving closer to the churches that had came out of NNS, that were more conservative on these issues, Thorton Union was also in debate over this issue. I think Bro. Daryl Newsome knew this, and felt, that if his churches pulled out, the strife would cease and it did.These churches still preach with other old Regular Baptist, and they seem to take in alot of members from other associations in this situation, I do not agree with the Solid Rocks position on this ,but I do consider many of them as friends,they have not agreed with me on several issues, nor I with them, but we don't fuss over it, we don't correspond. They have ,age of accountabilty as an article of faith, I don't believe God has an age picked out in which he vists somone ,like many say it is 12 y.o. I find no such doctrine under Grace, God vists whoever he wants to when he wants to ,some very young and some like Abraham, who was very old, I believe I was borned in sin, I did not have to step out into it, because it was already in me, although I did understand this until God shined his light. Bro.Slone p.s Good to hear from you Bro.Deel

Loria27
11-08-2006, 08:18 PM
Okay...I am more than likely in the wrong place but I am looking for some information about a preacher/brother or anyone who can marry my fiance and I. I grew up in the Old Regular Baptist Church and my mother was a member of the Rose Of Sharon Church in Waynesburg Kentucky untill she passed away in March of 2000. I have been looking for a church to attend here in Columbus Ohio but have had no luck finding one. Any help from anyone would be so appreciated and I do apologize for posting this here...but I honestly didn't know any other place to put this.
Thank you, Loria*

Brother Bob
11-08-2006, 08:36 PM
Little Angel
Forest Osborne
2744 S. High St
Columbus, Oh43207
Phone 614-492-9435

The moderator of that church just died. His name was Hiram Adkins. I gave you the clerk's address and phone number. You can call him and get all the information you need.

Good luck to you and congratulations!

old regular
11-09-2006, 07:19 PM
Sorry to hear of Brother Hiram Adkins passing, he surley will be missed, I have many memories of him. Brother Grover Adkins and I were good friends, I used to preach in their Union meeting every year there for awhile at Fords Branch and also at Island Creek. One of the oldest Elders in the Old Regulars lives in the Columbus area and he is friends with Brother Forrest. Elder Fred Charles telephone number 614-875-3121 he lives in the Orient area. He enjoys talking about the Bible and he can give you alot of history about the ORB. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
11-09-2006, 07:26 PM
Brother Hiram and I went to Columbus to baptize a woman just before He died and we stayed with I think Brother Fred and his wife. I took part in the first night of Brother Hiram's funeral. Was the biggest crowd with 67 preachers in attendance.

Brother Bob
11-10-2006, 07:41 AM
I think I am wrong where Bro Hiram and I stayed in Columbus after thinking about it. I believe the Brother and Sister we stayed with were the "Browns".

old regular
11-10-2006, 06:45 PM
I think New Salem has or had a Church in the Columbus area, Mud River also held house meetings around that area at one time, Brother Luther Ball is not as active as he once was. Sovereign Grace Association will soon have a new website, there is a Brother in the Pellyton,Ky area working on it. He owns Cumberland Books, they are home schooling their children, which I think is much better than having them attending public school, all of us however do not have this option. I currently have two biological children at home and four foster children,the state mandates that the foster children be in the state school system, I work nights at the hospital and it would be almost impossible for me to home school at this time.We did have a private teacher at one time teaching my youngest girls at home but her husband passed away, and she went back north to be near her family.We hope to someday have a school at the church at Blessed Hope, though it would have to function by itself and not as part of the church, but could use the church buildings and grounds. The other churches except Mt.Moriah are large enough for the same, but at this time there are not enough local families to maintain a school.Some of the members and friends that attend our churches homeschool, these families tend to perfer an old fashioned church, with solid christian values. I do believe if the old Regular Baptist Churches are going to grow during this trying time, it will mainly come from men and women who have been called out of darkness,who desire a more conservative lifestyle , living in the world but not part of the world. Brother Slone

old regular
11-13-2006, 06:32 PM
The Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ will soon have a website, sponsored by Cumberland Books. The website will start out small at first but it is our hope it will grow and provide information,on the doctrine,practice,faith and order of our small churches.The site is to include the weekly services at the Blessed Hope Church, and contain articles that favor our views both current and historical, the historical articles may come from some of the older associations Elders, who advocated free grace, and from other old school baptist that have shared our doctrine,faith and practice.We hope it will be a help to those ,trying to understand our positions. We don't believe that tapes,CD,s etc... should replace anyone from attending a local church, that is sound, but there are many shut ins etc all over the country , who get lonesome to hear at least that old time sound.While the sound can be captured on audio/video I never felt the Spirt could be,thats why it is most important to attend church when at all possible, I do not like to hear myself on tapes etc..... and there are others who are afraid that what they say maybe taken wrong, that is why this site is not for debate, but for educational purposes. I do not know when it will be up and running. I will try to keep you posted, if the entire services are going to be down loaded it may take some time for those on dial up, so they may make the CDs available.Brother Slone

old regular
11-13-2006, 06:36 PM
I think the New Salem Assn. Church in Columbus was called Mt. Judah, Brother Bob may be able to tell you more. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
11-13-2006, 08:44 PM
You are correct old regular.

Mt. Judia
Columbus, Ohio
Clerk Rueben L Gillman
2325 Ashley Dr.
Columbus, Ohio 43224
Phone 614-471-3911

This was the clerk in 2004
I guess he still is.

Virginia ORB
11-22-2006, 08:07 AM
Thank you, Brother Mike, for responding to my question. I was wondering what happened to all of the churches that had formerly lettered to the Original Mountain Liberty Association.

bubba jimmy
11-23-2006, 11:44 AM
I am looking for some information about a preacher/brother or anyone who can marry my fiance and I.

You know, your question brought to mind something I hadn't thought of in over 40 years. My mother and father were married by an Old Regular preacher by the name of Dewey Sexton back in the 1950's. I imagine he was old back then, and I don't remember ever meeting him. Hadn't thought of his name until you asked this question. Anyone know of him, were he was from, and what church he was in? Just curiosity more than anything, and some more knowledge of my own family history.

Brother Bob
11-23-2006, 12:35 PM
I knew him when he lived in Michigan. He and Elder Claude Brown established a church up there in Michigan but not sure which one, or they helped establish it. It was before I was a member of the church but Claude Brown was my uncle and I worked with him. I think Brother Dewey was a member of The Old Union Church of the Union Association, but not sure. I saw him several times after joining the church down here in Kentucky.

old regular
11-28-2006, 06:21 PM
The Blessed Hope Church of Jesus Christ of Old Regular Baptist (a member of the SGA) weekly services are now available on line at http://www.cumberlandbooks.com/bhservicesthis is being provided courtesy of Cumberland Books, they are currently working on a larger website for these churches but I don't think it is up yet.Note ,it is by no means trying to replace the local church, but there are a lot of people who want to hear our worship services, and also shut ins etc....Brother Mike

Jeff Weaver
11-28-2006, 08:55 PM
Bro. Mike

Thanks for posting this. I listened to a lot of it, enjoyed most of it. Listening to Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah as I type.

Jeff Weaver
:applause:a hardshell type person.

Bethelassoc
11-29-2006, 05:17 PM
Bro Mike, If you don't mind, I'd like to post a link to this site for people that are looking at listening to the old time singing and preaching. I've been trying to post ones that I come across that are in line with the United Baptists.

old regular
11-29-2006, 06:39 PM
Dear Bethel Association, I see no problem with you posting a link to this site.There are old school churches which are much better at calling out the old time songs, the brother who is working on the website just wanted others to hear what church services are like in SGA of ORB, and be able to have somewhere to keep a history of our heritage, all the sermons are preached with out notes or being written out, the brothers preaching may have just started exercising their gift or may have been an Elder for many years,most of the songs come from the old school baptist faith but some may be of other orgins adapted by this church.I hope those listing will throw a mantle of charity over it , all are welcomed to establish links if it to be used for historical or relational or spirtual purposes . We are very open to the Primitives and the Uniteds. Brother Slone

old regular
11-29-2006, 07:39 PM
To answer a brothers question, no not all Regulars and all Primitives split mainly the appalachain associations, and this started not just over absolute predestination but a form of absolute predestination that made God the direct Author of Sin, and the doctrine of actual eternal vital union and two seedism. the atonement questions came a little later, When Seperates and Regulars merged they agreed that preaching that Christ tasted death for every man would be no bar to communion, this did not last and the Particular atoners and the general atoners started a fued, after all was said and done most old regulars held the view that the merit and worth of Christs blood was beyond human limitation but that its purpose was to redeem the church or the elect or believer, and no else, those familarwith the New Salems history will see that when Elder Hopkins took the general atonement side that several of the New Salem churches left including Joppa and Stone Coal, this break was soon cleared up by modfying Elder Hopkins statements and the break away churches returned, so in the New Salem there were three views of the atonement being advocated, Particular,Special,and a modified General view ,and this issue has never troubled them in a direct form, since.New Salem corresponded with associations with some of these different views , Mud River favored the particular view while old Friendship a modified general view, while the "traditional" view of the New Salem was that Christ made an atonement for all who now believe .who believed in ages past,who will through the working of Gods mighty power believe in the future, most still hold the atonement could save the whole world or a billion worlds if God purposed it to , but since he didn't it will reconcile and save all who come to him by Grace.The Regulars of the midwest had these same differing views in their associations on the atonement, see the "History of the Regular Baptist of Southern Illinois" by Coffey ;many of these associations became Primitive but some in the Midwest still call themselves Regular Baptist like the Little Zion association we claim some of their Elders just like some of the Primitives in Virginia claim ours.Our Thomas Hymnal (Elder E.D Thomas)came from the Regular Baptist of IL.IN regions. They divided with the Uniteds(not old uniteds) over missionary boards etc... They to my knowledge never got in to the disputes that tore the Mountain Old School Baptist asunder. I hope I have answered your question.Brother Slone P.S you may find out that the Regulars are primitives and the Primitives are regulars and both are United though some maybe Seperate.[a little baptist succsession]

Brother Bob
11-29-2006, 08:15 PM
I can't speak for all ORB in Appalachian or from Michigan to Fla., which consist of at least 6000 members or more and at least 400 to 500 churches. I do not know of any church which make up the New Salem, Union, Sardis, Old Friendship, Old Indian Bottom or probably the Elwood side of Indian Bottom, Philedelphia, Northern New Salem and I hope I haven't missed any. I don't know of a Preacher or Church that hold to a particular atonement. There of course are a brother here and there who I suspect does believe that but never ever preaches it in the stand. I have heard them hint that way pretty strong but stop short of going over the edge of which would bring trouble among us. Everyone I know of believes that "whosoever will" can be saved and that Jesus died for the sin of the World and not just a few. We believe a man must repent, believe and be baptized if he wants to be saved. We believe that God loves His whole creation and that the names in the Lambs Book of Life were "written" there according to the Bible that says those whose names are not found "written" in the Lambs Book of Life will not enter into that Holy City. We believe if a man goes to hell it will be at his own doing and he failed to repent. If it says the names were "written" then that means someone wrote them there. It also says if some don't overcome and stop what they are doing their names will be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, that would be kinda rough on a particular atonement.

I think Bro Slone will acknowledge what I have posted to be true among us, or at least I think He will, or he may not even though he does not hold to that belief, or I don't think he does. Again, I love all my brethren and one thing for sure, here we only see in part but when we get to heaven we shall see clearly.

We don't believe that any man can save himself that it takes the blood of Christ to do that by Grace through faith. It is just we believe the faith comes first and its our faith. Our belief all comes down to "You MUST BELIEVE", or you will die in your sins and where He is you cannot come.

I might add, All of the United Baptist Churches I know of in Eastern Kentucky, West Virginia believe as we do. I don't know any of them that believe in particular atonement.

All the Primitive Baptist I know of in this area I believe to be Hyper-Primitive, I may be wrong but don't think so for I have talked to a lot of them and know most of their preachers locally. They believe if the roof in a mine begins to fall on them it was meant to be.

Bethelassoc
11-29-2006, 08:51 PM
Thanks Bro Mike. I do enjoy the lined out songs best. I'm glad others are recording the songs for "catching the tune" for others to enjoy. Lining out songs is a "lost art" in alot of the churches anymore.

I'm always glad to get some tunes I've not heard before. I definitely don't judge the style or talent but am glad to hear how a certain congregation sings them. I also like to hear tune variations to them as well.

I direct my family to what I find and we try to sing them in church. I also am glad that you are posting sermons. I believe there is a need for the old time way and the Internet is a great place to introduce people to it. I'm glad your church isn't afraid of "preserving the spirit" in a media format. :)

I will post the link on my website along with the other sites of sermons and songs.

David

old regular
11-29-2006, 11:31 PM
Particular Atonement Doctrine did exist along side with other atonement views among the Old Regular Baptist and in the New Salem association.

Where did Sandlick Association come from? Where did Mates Creek come from? Answer New Salem.

Check the New Salem association minutes for that year that these associations pulled their letters after Elder N.T Hopkins general atonement sermon.
In it, he stated those not holding to the general view need not lay in their letters. Which, several of the corresponding associations did not and also several of New Salem's own churches.

As to the current position on the atonement in those associations{New Salem's correspondence}, they believe the benefits of the atonement are limited to the believer, not an universal atonement that will save all mankind like I saw posted on one website.

When I was in the NNS they (not all)preached that man must satisfy the wrath of God through his sufferings, among other erroneous things the atonement was preached to be an example of the way we should suffer this was tolerated for a long time.

I contended for a free salvation by the Grace of God, election by Grace and that according to the foreknowledge of God. I never read in the Bible where anyone's name has been added to the Book of Life {Rev 17:8} I have read where God would take away an individuals PART out of the book of life{ Rev 22:19}. I too believe that whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely just as long as he is the same whosoever will that the Spirit and Bride say ,Come. And let him that HEARETH say Come, And let him that is ATHIRST come. And whosoever will, let him come and take the water of life freely.

Note: if someone out there is thirsting after righteousness and they can hear the Spirit and Bride say come Matthew 5:6 states that you are already blessed and has promised you shall be filled.

Christ's atonement will cover every soul that would fain see his face. Those excluded from it exclude themselves and can lay no charge against election or predestination, they loved darkness rather than light. The article I wrote earlier was dealing with the splits among the Regulars in the late 19th century not New Salem currently. The majority of ministers in that correspondence are close to Bro. Bob's views and I would say he is a fair representative of their current line of theology some would be a bit more Calvinistic that Bro. Bob, I do know of many, that would be more Arminian than him, but in all fairness, No Regular Baptist are true Calvinist nor true Arminians, we maybe calvinistic on certain points of doctrine, or a brother may have arminian points on a subject but would not fully embrace all that system teaches.

The major differences between the Old Regulars I correspond with through are little association and Brother Bob corresponds with is how we believe on where life begins in the travail at the end or at the beginning{we are the beginning bunch}. Secondly, our correspondence would never publish a circular letter saying God doesn't know who he is going to save or preach that God doesn't know everything etc... I do not know where Brother Bob is at on all those issues, but all on that side do not believe that God is not all knowing, some believe he knows everything and has declared the end from the beginning, some favor the former.

This I know I have heard it with my own ears and have seen it with my own eyes. I have tried to keep this article informative seeing this is not a debate forum, sorry if I have caused an offence. You will find these historical facts in the Stone Coal church records so I was told by Elder Earl Lawson, the rest in the blue history and the Walter Acers collection of New Salem minutes.
Bro. Slone

Brother Bob
11-30-2006, 05:23 AM
Brother Slone,
You have it right as how it is now among the Associations you were discussing. What you stated before, left it as there were among us, different beliefs about the atonement and as I stated there may be a few, but it is kept to themselves. I sure hope you were not referring to my Circular Letter that is on my web site, for it plainly states that God always had a plan of Salvation. I still stand by what is in that Circular Letter, and you will find that Circular Letter in the Pikeville College Library and the Belfry, Kentucky Library. You have correctly stated to how I believe and I thank you for that. I know the Bible does not say anything about adding names to the Lamb's Book of Life, but it does state "having their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life", which plainly says the names were "written" in the book. I think if they were not "written" in the book, it would of stated "the names in the book", but who knows, I sure glad they were "written" there.
The times of struggle you speak of, about atonement has went on since before they ever came to this country and will continue until we die. The Calvinist theology was not as strong on atonement, as some are on here today.
I only answered, because you were discussing all the Associations and members of who I am a part of, and wanted it to be known that, of course there has been debates and troubles over "atonement" in the past and as you know better than I, it still continues, but we as a whole, believe that Jesus died for all.

For the record, I do believe in an "all knowing" God, but believe just because He knows does not mean He decrees.

Also Bro. Slone, I failed to tell you that Brother Joe Evans passed away last year or year before. You mentioned him once.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


If you did mean my Circular Letter on my web site, please inform me what you disagree with. Thank you,
BBob

Virginia ORB
11-30-2006, 01:27 PM
Brother Mike:

Do you believe in the doctrine of irressible grace? Can a person turn God's call away? Or what some people call the Light & Life doctrine as the Bethal Assoication practices? That a person cannot repent until God shines His light upon him/her?

Forgive me if you have stated your views on these subjects before, but since this thread is 44 pages long, I thought I would just ask you.

p.s. I support your endeavor to post your churches' meetings online.

Bethelassoc
11-30-2006, 05:06 PM
Our Thomas Hymnal (Elder E.D Thomas)came from the Regular Baptist of IL.IN regions. They divided with the Uniteds(not old uniteds) over missionary boards etc...

To add to that, those associations became either Missionary or Southern Baptist. There aren't any United Baptist associations in the Illinois area that I know of now. The associations in Indiana are tied into churches in KY.

David

Brother Bob
11-30-2006, 05:11 PM
...................

old regular
11-30-2006, 08:19 PM
Brother Bob, I have never read your circular letter, but I may try to find it tonite. I had reference to a predestinarian web site that stated the Burning Springs and Old Regulars believed all men would be saved and go to heaven, we need to be careful how we apply words like every and all, as most Greek scholars will tell you they are generally used in a restrictive sense, the same with the word world, there are several websites that deal with those issues.I will give some references to my previous statements concerning historical views of the New Salem on the atonement and like issues, this is so the readers will see, that I am not making things up or trying to give a false history of this association:New Salem association 1891 item 19 "Resolved that we the New Salem Association, cannot endorse the sentiment teaching absolute predestination of all things,HELD AND PREACHED BY SOME OF OUR BRETHERN,WHICH DECLARES GOD to be the AUTHOR OF SIN,or that he influences men there to". New Salem assn. 1892 "Resolved , that we drop the nineteenth item of our last years minutes and advise our churches to cleanse,or abstain from the doctrine that teaches that God is the Aurthor of sin,or that he influences men thereto, and the doctrine of ARMINIANISM that claims the work of the creature (man)to be essential to eternal salvation." note: this is the year they added OLD to Regular Baptist( I asked the NNS to reprint this item as they had adopted the orders etc ..of the New Salem , they told me that was the old brothers that they are the NOW old regulars with their statement I have no quarrel). From History: "Throughout the second half of the 19th century, New Salem fellowships apparently held much closer to a doctrine of limited atonement than to one of general atonement.[ Howard Dorgan ] New Salem Association 1912"...........We never have agreed in full with the PARTICULAR BAPTIST of England on the one hand and the General Baptist on the other..................opposed to the fatalism of the Particular Baptist and the Arminianism of the General Baptist.Note the above is very true of the Sovereign Grace Association stance on those issues, we would reprint them in our minutes , Would the Sardis Assn. reprint them? Would the Union preaching Brothers abide by the above statements concerning doctrine or would they like the Northern New Salem reject as being the old Brothers? In love Brother Mike

Brother Bob
11-30-2006, 08:41 PM
cannot endorse the sentiment teaching absolute predestination of all things,HELD AND PREACHED BY SOME OF OUR BRETHERN,WHICH DECLARES GOD to be the AUTHOR OF SIN,or that he influences men there to". New Salem assn. 1892 "Resolved , that we drop the nineteenth item of our last years minutes and advise our churches to cleanse,or abstain from the doctrine that teaches that God is the Aurthor of sin,or that he influences men thereto, and the doctrine of ARMINIANISM that claims the work of the creature (man)to be essential to eternal salvation


I would endorse them very quickly. The only thing I see any problem with at all is I don't think Belief is works. I still find no fault whatsoever with that order and Sardis Association believes that way. Again, we believe that faith is not works and you must believe. The Sardis and the others as far as I know do not hold to Particular Atonement and neither do any of us hold to all men being saved either. We do believe that Jesus died for all but you must believe to receive the blood. I mean I posted several scriptures last night where He died for all but you must believe to receive the "gift".

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


I really think the Northern New Salem believes the same as we do. I will agree that we have some young preachers and so do most that all they do is tell a sad story and thats it. I sink in my seat all the time over that but I don't believe in absolute predestination and think the Sardis is the one who brought it to the New Salem for they would not do any work that year and didn't receive any letters until they got their own house in order and in 1893 they accepted us and didn't even mention Mate's Creek.
Now the works department, none that I know of ,thinks a man can work out his salvation, because we don't consider faith as works and from that point God leads us and we follow because we want to be saved. I don't know if you can accept that or not, but that is where I can not go any farther, that you are either in or out before you even had a chance, of which I don't believe.

I listen to two of your sermons and couldn't find anything wrong but did notice that after preaching "repentance is required at the hands of all men", you spent the next 15 minutes putting a clause to it. I also noticed that you put a lot of effort into telling men to repent and I have to be honest, the thought came to my mind about whether you believed they could or not. Not to offend you at all but that is where I see the trouble of going too far with the predestination. You mentioned an "all knowing God" and that is what I believe but that makes predestination easy to explain. God knows who will believe so He knows who to draw, to predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, to justify (by the blood of Christ), and to Glorify. We are waiting on our Glorification but God has already saw it, so yes, He does know the beginning from the end for He is everylasting to everylasting. He can work in time or outside of time. Time is for man, not God. :thumbs:

This is when the Sardis was having trouble with Hyper-Calvinism about the same time as you mentioned the New Salem was having problems.

NOW, BE IT KNOWN, in the presence of these witnesses and before Almighty God, the Supreme Judge of the World and all our actions:

First: That we do not object to the outline of Doctrine as we understand it to have been written in the different Constitutions of the Churches composing the Mates Creek Association.

Second: That while we believe no one independent of God's Almighty Power can be instrumental in the salvation of his soul, we do believe that man is responsible for his deeds, which thing we understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Third: That we object to the Doctrine held by our Mates Creek Brethren that man as a created being is compelled by God Eternal in all things to do just as he does, whether it be good or evil.
Fourth: We believe that man in the Creation was given limited power and that good and evil were set before him with the possibility of his choosing either. Therefore, we believe that when Adam par­took of evil he did so not by compulsion but by choice, which thing we also understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Therefore, these things being essential in regard to the prosperity of the Church, and as members holding these different views cannot possibly live in true Brotherly love within the same Association, we thought it better both for our Absolute Predestination Brethren and ourselves that we organize a separate Association. Not that we object to the original Doctrine of the Mates Creek Association but that we believe that our Predestination Brethren have departed from these same Doctrines.

But to them and all others be it understood, with God as our Judge, that it is with malice toward none that we withdraw from the Mates Creek Association and adopt the following Constitution for our Church government, together with the foregoing Articles of Faith for each of the Churches composing our Body:

old regular
11-30-2006, 09:36 PM
Brother Mike:

Do you believe in the doctrine of irressible grace? Can a person turn God's call away? Or what some people call the Light & Life doctrine as the Bethal Assoication practices? That a person cannot repent until God shines His light upon him/her?

Forgive me if you have stated your views on these subjects before, but since this thread is 44 pages long, I thought I would just ask you.

p.s. I support your endeavor to post your churches' meetings online. Dear Virginia ORB I am not sure I understand your question, If you are asking me do I think God saves a man against his will, no he just gives them a new will and a to do after his own good pleasure, Grace will not be resisted by the elect(one who believes according to the working of Gods mighty power) and the Fathers call[drawing] is effectual ,{John 6:44]psalms cx.3] everyone he draws he will raise up at the last day, but if your asking can people resist the Holy Ghost ,yes, LooK at Hebrews 10:38" Now the just shall live by faith:but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.39 vs"But we are not of them(2 classes elect and non -elect(unbelievers)]who draw back unto perdition:but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." also look at 2Thess 2:10, As to the Bethel Association what is it, you think they believe? Secondly have you ever heard a brother from the Bethel Preach? Most people that believe the Bible believe that Light and Life are the same, read St. John chapter one if you are saying that light manifested is salvation then the whole world would be saved, "And this is the condemnation,that light is come into the world,and men loved darkness......John 3:19 but as you see light brings condemnation for those who love darkness but what is Light to those that believe ?you answer, what is the light of life that is given,? in him was life;and the life was the light of men,( is light life?} read the circular letters from the Bethel then get the pre- divide letters from the Union , check to find out which side the court of law ruled to be the original Old Regulars you may be shocked. Most people never knew what these brothers preached ,they believed that salvation was by grace, and that if one recieves the Spirit one recieves life and is quickened or begotten recieves life(they that hear shall live) then by the Holy Ghosts operation one believes ,repents,mourns over sins is justified by the blood and by grace and by faith and by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ,is eternally justified) begotting before a birth, believing before being sealed but life first then action, dead babies do not cry, dead men do not thirst and hunger, "I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, live; yea, I said unto thee when tho wast in thy blood, LIVE" Eph 2nd chapter, look up, begot , begotten ,when Zion travailed, John 5:25 Galatains 3:2 and maybe we can meet again sometime and look at all these things and find out why we are such a divided people and it just might be your generation that God will use to unite the Old School Baptist. Brother Slone

Brother Bob
11-30-2006, 09:49 PM
......................

old regular
11-30-2006, 10:45 PM
We believe that repentence is on one hand commanded of God, yet on the other hand granted and a gift of God ;mans inability to repent does not lie with election it lies with his own sinfullness. and love of darkness which keeps him out of the light which would reprove his deeds, nevertheless we in meekness instucting those who oppose themselves that peradventure God would grant them repentence....."But if our gospel be hid,it is hid to them that ae lost'' The website is not mine ,I do not like to hear myself on tape or CD, and {the hands of every man] statement is not really the best way to preach ,the scripture does not read that way, it is just a habit among ORB's we know God will not recieve an offering at mans hand, we have more of them, I am just as bad as the next ORB, spend eternity,]{ We sometimes have trouble expressing ourselves most of the time when I get to Blessed Hope I have already traveled several hundred miles, and I am very tired, throat sore, yet trusting that my maker may give me something for Gods Little Children. I had very mixed feelings about the website at first but at this time I have already heard from people in VA all the way to California, almost all positive, there was some no hellers who got on the comment side that were not positive about us.I was surprised that Primitive Baptist and United Baptist and Old Regulars of associations not in correspondence with us ,have let us know that they hope Cumberland Books will continue to add to the site.On Doctrine of Regular Baptist ,I try to keep it in context, with this history thread for information, I have also tried when others were not around to give both sides of a split even if I favor one view over the other, and thats very hard for me, because I have lived so close to these things, and have been attacked, lied on, etc... but have loved these people and still love them on all sides, and just because I am not in fellowship with some of them doesn 't mean they are my enemies, I had to stand for what I believe the Word of God states above everything else. Howard Dorgan stated that there had been.". .numerous old regular splits over the last century and a half,the resultant
sides have never been all that far apart in either doctrine or practice.Although old Indian Bottom.New Salem, Thorton Union,and Bethel may not correspond with each othr,it is not difficult to see that they are all of the same Old Regular Baptist tradition." old regular

old regular
11-30-2006, 10:54 PM
Bro.Bob I liked your website........ The song varations that occur among Regular Baptist songbooks , is this done because of copyright, difference in doctrine or was the song from oral tradition or some other reason? Brother Mike

old regular
12-01-2006, 02:11 AM
Belief not a work? I would agree it is not a work of man but it is a work of God, not in the sense that God believes for man, but God gives the Grace by which we believe. I do not go along with all the calvinist on the web, while I may agree with them on many points of doctrine, I would not subscribe to all the things some of them advocate, but through the years ,I haven't always agreed with myself, especially after reading the Bible more carefully, I found it very easy, to misunderstand a verse here and there and this can throw you off keel in a flash.

Brother Bob
12-01-2006, 06:23 AM
Bro.Bob I liked your website........ The song varations that occur among Regular Baptist songbooks , is this done because of copyright, difference in doctrine or was the song from oral tradition or some other reason? Brother Mike

Copyright in most cases and in a few of the newer songs written, I may have left a word out or it was against scripture.

As far as the doctrine, we will just have to agree to disagree for I believe a dead man in sin can hear. He is dead in a sense, that he is separated from God. If the "dead in sin can't hear, then we still all lost". Also, if the dead in sin can't hear, then will they hear him when He says, "depart from me ye workers of iniquity"? I have heard it several times lately that the dead can't do nothing. Well, there is a lot of difference in being dead physically, and being "dead in sin". Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead", that would be pretty hard if they couldn't hear.
Why preach the Gospel to every creature if they "can't hear"?
Why preach repentance if they can't repent?
Why preach ye must believe if they can't hear or believe?
If a man don't have faith of his own, then how can he add to it?
As you already know I can give scriptures for all I have just stated, but you do sound pretty close to the hard liners in some of your doctrine. I can see why you left the NNS, when you say that even repentance and faith is given by God, and that a man can't do nothing until God gives him a new birth, if I am quoting you right, and I believe God meant what He said when He said, preach the Gospel to "every creature" and he that "believeth".

You preach every Sunday and other days "for a man to repent", when all the time you believe "he can't" unless God reborns him first. You are preaching to all men something, you don't believe they can do. I believe that goes against the whole bible from the faith of Abel until now. I don't believe I will ever understand it Mike. From my understanding of the Scriptures, I would never of felt right with the "old hard liners", or those who believe a man can't even have faith of his own.

It seems instead of preaching to all men to repent, when they can't unless God does it, seems it would be better to preach to God to "repent that man and change him and put belief in him", so he don't go to hell, if God is the only one who can do it?

You say "light is life", when the scripture says the "light lighteth every man that cometh into the world". In the sense where Jesus is light, then Jesus is life, but you must believe to receive Him. So, you don't have the light but its there for you, if you will believe. Whosoever believeth on Him, should not abide in darkness.

Jhn 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=1&verse=9&version=kjv#9)[That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 3:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=21&version=kjv#21)But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jhn 12:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=12&verse=46&version=kjv#46)I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

You will find that word "believe" in almost every scripture in the Bible that you use to say a dead man can't do nothing. Well, I think I can use scripture and show where a "dead man in sin" can do a lot, such as believe and repent.

You don't believe that everything is predestinated to a man but you do believe all that is important to the saving of your soul is predestinated to man, if I understand you right. Yet, all men everywhere are commanded to repent and if the dead can't hear then how did they hear that "command"?

Act 17:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=17&verse=30&version=kjv#30)And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I don't mean this in no harsh way at all Mike, I guess you are happy where you are and I am happy where I am. Some of my best friends believe like you do and we just don't get into a discussion about it for it leads nowhere. I have asked them a few things over the years and get a "quick" answer, so I just don't mention it anymore.
BBob

Virginia ORB
12-01-2006, 11:46 AM
Brother Mike,

First of all, yes I have heard a brother from the Bethel Assoication. I have been to churches in the Union, Indian Bottom, New Salem, Old Freindship, Bethel, Mountian Valley, Thorton Union, and Original Mountain Liberty. I hope to visit all of them in the future.

I heard a preacher from the Bethel say that he was unable to repent until he was 39 years old. He said it was impossible for him to repent before that time because God had not shone His light. Do you agree with this statement? I know man cannot save himself, it takes God. Who decides when it is time to repent? Is it man's will or God's will? The reason I asked this was because the Sovergin Grace Assoc. corresponds with the Bethel Assoc.

Brother Jeremy Slone
12-02-2006, 10:15 AM
I am not Mike but i would agree with the Bethel Preacher, if u read Rom. 3:10-19 i think it shows the Bethel preachers condition before his experience he had at 39 years. as well as all the world that becomes guilty before God. As it says in Rom. 2:4 that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance. So its a work of God and in Philippians 1:6 says that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: I don't see how any one who doesn't believe in God would repent. Its a Godly sorrow 2Cor. 7:10, a non believer would have nothing that is Godly of him self. A preacher can't convince, Heb. 4:2, 2Cor 4:3,& 1Cor 2:18. I would say Mercy to those that do not deserve it.

Brother Bob
12-02-2006, 10:21 AM
I don't see how any one who doesn't believe in God would repent. Its a Godly sorrow

So Brother Jeremy, you do believe that a person "can believe" in God and therefore can repent? I am glad for that is what I believe also and have been preaching for 34 years. I have always said that all men know there is a God for He said they shall know me from the least unto the greatest.

Brother Jeremy Slone
12-03-2006, 01:23 AM
Well Brother Bob those who believe according to the working of his mighty power. Ephes. 1:19 and i would say those that believe are those that do by him that raised Christ from the dead. 1 Peter 1:21 and those that don't are those that love darkness rather than light. But i would agree with the Bethel Preacher who ever he may have been that Va ORB mentioned. I being in the SGA would say that our association is close with the Bethel association on this point. Mans depraved nature from adam is against God in nature and does not believe or repent. It takes God. Like it says in 1 John 5:1 Whosoever Believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: This is how I being a member of SGA would see it to compare with the Bethel Preacher.
also above in my reply i used I cor 2:18 mistake its 1:18

Brother Bob
12-03-2006, 06:36 AM
Well Brother Bob those who believe according to the working of his mighty power. Ephes. 1:19 and i would say those that believe are those that do by him that raised Christ from the dead. 1 Peter 1:21 and those that don't are those that love darkness rather than light. But i would agree with the Bethel Preacher who ever he may have been that Va ORB mentioned. I being in the SGA would say that our association is close with the Bethel association on this point. Mans depraved nature from adam is against God in nature and does not believe or repent. It takes God. Like it says in 1 John 5:1 Whosoever Believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: This is how I being a member of SGA would see it to compare with the Bethel Preacher.
also above in my reply i used I cor 2:18 mistake its 1:18

I was kidding you some Brother Jeremy. I know how you believe, we discussed it quite a bit. I personally believe He stands at the door of their hearts and knock. I don't think you can repent until you know you are in need of a Saviour, but I think that knowledge comes when you come to the age of accountability to know to do good and do it not, for the Lord will say in the last day, "I called and you didn't answer". How are you, I haven't seen you on here for a while. You do have to have a tough skin to stand up to these fellows on the theology threads. :)

Brother Jeremy Slone
12-03-2006, 05:35 PM
No problem brother bob, i am well and hope ya got the minute i sent ya.

Brother Bob
12-03-2006, 05:46 PM
Yes, I got both of them Jeremy and thank you very much.

old regular
12-06-2006, 06:19 PM
Brothers I think that this debate among Baptist is very old, Elder Earl Lawson , who was a very close friend of mine, stated a man conviced against his will is of the same opinion still, the KJV tells that God Granted repentence to the Gentiles unto life, not into life, the dead must hear the voice of the Son of God to live John 5:25 also look @ 24 to keep this thread on track historically the Confession of Faith 1644 we according to History Came from these brethern not withstanding the Welsh line that entered in among us" IV We teach that they only do, or can believe in Jesus Christ, to whom it is given to believe in Him by a special,gracious and powerful work of His Spirt:And that this is(and shall be) given to the elect in the time appointed of God for their effectual calling;and to none but the elect, John 6;64,65; Phil 1:29; Jer 31:33-34; Ezek 36:26; Rom 8:29-30 John 10:26 This we hold against those that do maintain freewill and sufficent ability in a man to believe; and do deny election." We don't know who's heart God may have opened but Lydia after her heart was opened attended to the things spoken of by Paul or preaching repentence is on a peradventure that God would grant them repentence, and I feel if one is opposing themselves he will, the gospel is the net to catch fish not make them that is done by the operation of the Spirt and without him we can do nothing, "......Christ and the Prophets give witness that through his name,whosoever believes in Him shall recieve the remission of sins Acts 10:43........" 1644 Confession We simply believe that the gift of eternal life brings all these elements with it, and that this truly is Grace," Who hath heard such a thing?who hath seen such things?...................for as soon as Zion travailed,she brought forth her children. " Shall I bring to birth, and not CAUSE to bring forth? saith the Lord:shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God."Is 66:8-9; God as a Soveriegn can command man to repent, and believe and he can give a law to a people that can not keep it,that is why we must look to Christ who has fulfilled the law and suffered its penalty, he can also write his LAW on our hearts and his law is perfect even converting the soul, I believe that Christ can speak to the dead but for our preaching they must have an ear to hear and Proverbs tells us that the Lord creates an hearing ear or seeing eyes, as some had ears and heard not and eyes that saw not. I am glad there are brothers on the other side of Old Regular Baptist that at least or trying to see where we are coming from ,even if they don' t agree with us, I have often felt that very few on that side even care. We might need to start a Old School Baptist doctrine thread as some of the moderators may feel we are taking too much liberty. In Christs Love Bro. Mike

Brother Bob
12-06-2006, 08:54 PM
the dead must hear the voice of the Son of God to live John 5:25
I don't think I want to go around again, we been there and ended up where we started except we did understand each other better. I am glad you believe those who are dead in sin can hear though.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Brother Bob
12-06-2006, 09:35 PM
The influence of Calvinism on seventeenth-century English Baptists:
In tracing ecclesiastical influences, care must be taken, in default of specific evidence, not to confuse the process of "derived from" with "conforms to," particularly given that numerous groups were thumbing the scriptures at one and the same time, anxious to discover biblical patterns of belief and churchmanship. (1) Moreover, self-respecting Puritans would argue that the authority for their reforms was not a human-made system of theology, be it ever so orthodox, but the authority of Christ as discovered in the scriptures themselves. (2) But that said, it remains that the norm of theological thinking among English Puritanism, and the Dissent that derived from it, was a "prevailing Calvinism," from which deviations have to be established and evidenced. Even so, a common origin can be found for even apparently discrepant thinking

Brother Mike it seems Calvinistic doctrine had his hand in the 1644 confession also.

old regular
12-06-2006, 10:23 PM
I don't think I want to go around again, we been there and ended up where we started except we did understand each other better. I am glad you believe those who are dead in sin can hear though.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. I see no problem with any of the above scriptures, and I am thankful 2 Peter 3:9 (he is longsuferring to US-WARD, not willing that any (any who?)(us)should perish,but all should come to repentence. Now look At Ephesians 1:11"......who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Now if God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, and his will is that not any should perish and that any is all men, then you would have an universal salvation. I do not believe God has any pleasure in the death of the wicked, and he would have all men(all types of men) to be saved Greeks,Jews every nation ,kindred and tongue. I believe God made man upright, and that he does not make anyone evil or wicked in order to condemn them but they are condemned because they are wicked and evil yet Jude says 4th verse"For there are certain men crept in unawares,who were before ordained to this condemnation. ......." people are not going to say to God send me to hell, so he must place them there,because sin must be punished, and God will excute vengeance with eternal fire.Also look and see if there are people that God hates, and I am not talking just about the Esau verse. This is important because there is a Group which came out of the New Salem and Indian Bottom and with 6 members from some of our churches, that are using the words every, and any , and all much like you have but unlike you they take it to the extreme, and they advocate that all men will be saved in the end, that hell is on earth, I know that you on the other hand believe in justification by faith, and I do not really think that you believe that man by nature would turn and believe or repent, but have preached that we all like sheep have went astray and there is none that seeketh, ( that is by nature) that a carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God, that the natural man recieveth not the things that be of the Spirit neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned,We(SGA) believe it is Grace that enables one to believe and then they recieve more Grace so that it is Grace for Grace. [Acts 13:48] good verse but not the one I was thinking about ,Acts 18:27"......helped them much which had believed through Grace" John 1:16"......,and grace for grace." Brother Mike

Brother Bob
12-07-2006, 08:12 AM
Eph: 1:11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


As far as God working everything after council of His own will. He is an all knowing God, and knows who will believe and who will not.
Predestination to me is easy if you believe that God is everlasting to everlasting and knows all.

The difference between you and I is that I believe that Spirit is striving with all men to repent. I do believe the dead in sin can hear the call of God, if I didn't I think all would be lost. I for sure do not believe in universalism Salvation.
We are so close but still not exactly. I believe that the Spirit is there first to strive with man, Man must believe and repent and follow that Spirit to Salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Grace of God. I have never ever believed a man can save himself. A man can do everything he wants, even give his body to be burned but he still don't have Salvation for that is of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I know you believe that God must first regenerate the heart before a man can believe and some use that "the dead can't do nothing". Well, I say the dead can believe and in the end when all the dead in sin will hear the Lord say "depart", they will hear him.
I take my own life and something was always talking with me after I came to know to do good and did it not. When I was dying with this heart of mine. I said, Lord I know I am not worthy and if its your will that I die let it be, but save my dying soul. I give all I got which is not much, but I give it all to you Lord. I then felt the Lord in my life from that day until now. I believe that every other man has the same opportunity as I did but most will continue to love darkness rather than light and neither will they come to the light "lest their deeds be reproved".
You have scriptures and I have scriptures. You are not nearly as hard as the ones I have confronted on here. I have not run into one yet that can use scripture and convince me otherwise than what I believe. I think I might know the one that took your 6 you are talking about and if it is, the leader is nothing but trouble and seeking what he can destroy.

After being on here and meeting all these Calvinists and talking with you and Jeremy, now when I am at church I catch thing I used to would of let go by. Brothers saying things and not finishing what they started, using a short passage for thats all they know and not giving a message but making a point out of a short passage. We have so many that can not get into the Scriptures for they know not what they say. All my Christian life I have heared we ordain our own trouble and there is truth to that for few could debate you and these hard line Calvinists on here, they would be lost. I am glad that God does have ministers that really study what the scriptures mean. I still believe as I did when I first joined this Baptist Board, but they have made me study to defend this Old time Baptist doctrine. Hardly any worship as we do. They mock the washing of feet, the laying on of hands, the fact that we don't believe a child of God can commit adultery. A lot believe a child of God can still do the sinful things he did before Salvation, he just needs to repent again. This Haggard fellow, most take up for him but not me. I don't think he ever was a minister of God. He was a minister alright but not one of God.

I still believe in "cleanse your hands ye sinner" is to the world and its saying we must quit such things as adultery or God will never save us.

Merry Christmas to you and Jeremy and all of your church members and God bless,

old regular
12-08-2006, 06:46 PM
Brother Bob, I do not think the Old Regular Baptist will ever end their debates on Hope and Knowledge, Light and Life etc.......... "cleanse ye hands......" Brother Claude Ousley would rebuke any Brother that preached that to alien sinners, maybe you never met him, he always said it was to Jewish Christians holding on to the law with one hand and Grace with the other, and the apostle was using language a Hebrew could understand, such as cleanse and purify from the temple, most commentators agree with him , I have heard a few NNS Elders use it like you do, but not at the Churches I grew up in, PV,LR.LE my old home church still in the NNS believed in Election, by the foreknowledge of God, and did not preach works for salvation,others in that same association did advocate satisfying the wrath of God ,that Christ did not pay for our sins,we had to suffer for ourselves, that God was not all knowing, that men were born free moral agents, not free agents, but moral agents, I heard them say that Christ never was made sin, that his death only atoned for the Jews, Bro ALex Collier sang a man down for preaching Hell was on earth one time at P.V that if you put away your wife for any cause other than fornication, that,your heart would be so hard that you could never repent and there was no forgiveness for this. If you find this hard to believe ,talk to the moderator at Pleasant View and ask him if I speak the truth or not, you are right we ordain our own trouble, you will not hear preaching like the above in the Bethel Association nor did Mud River advocate such things, I don't believe in adultery but it is not the unpardonable sin, churches should be careful who they recive in that condition not to cause the church body to perish or be disturbed. If preaching salvation by Grace means I am a calvinist so be it, if it means believing in double election and predestination of all things to make God the author of wickedness, I am not, if it means, having to use man in salvation, I am not, If it means that God by ONE direct decree brings everything to pass both good and evil ,I am not, If it means that I belive that God had a direct decree and a decree to permit or suffer the enterance of sin, I will take that, if it means God predestinated the fall of adam then NO!!!! if it means God forknew the fall of adam and ordained that those who when his Grace appeared would through that Grace, his Spirit, his power believe to the saving of their souls ,be justified by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, that those people were given to his son in a covenant before the foundation of the world and are elected, or chosen to salvation, through sanctification of the spirit, and belief of the truth, I am guilty of the charge, and be guilty of the charge which would you rather have preached to your children that God loved them with an everlasting love, and by his love and kindness he drew them,that salvation is free to all who come to Christ by him that election only excludes those who will not believe,who love darkness, who will not obey, who draw back to perdition,who look not to Christ, or wuold you rather they have a steady diet of they must satisfy the wrath of God and pay for their own sins, that they must get good enough for God to save them or that God is only a part Savior you must finish the job, those thing I heard preached to the point of being ill, call me a hardshell but I try to aleast preach the written word of God not some folks tale about not having shoes, and having to hoe corn all day, and that folksey tale if used to make a point or connected to some sound principle would be okay, but you must admit there are very few called men of God preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified, you would be better off Brother Bob to preach to your own congergation then to allow men that do not edfiy the church body to get in your stand just because they are in correspondence with you, I believe that you would preach the Bible and even if , I did not agree with your understanding of a subject or scripture it would still be better than what I listened to for years in some Regular Baptist churches not all. God Bless You to feed his lambs and sheep.Brother Slone

Brother Bob
12-08-2006, 07:23 PM
Well, you have certainly explained our agreements and our differences in how we understand the scriptures.

One thing I must comment on though and that is I hope you don't believe God will save a man while in the act of adultery,

murder, worshiping a golden calf etc. That is why I say "cleanse your hands you sinners". I still believe a man has to repent

and you can't do that without quitting adultery, etc. I don't believe God makes you repent, I don't believe the Lord was just

talking to the Jews. Seems everytime someone don't like something they say well that was to the Jews.

Jesus taught His Gospel to His Apostles and when He sent them out again to the whole world it was the same Gospel. We

cannot cherry pick what we want from the Gospels and say the rest is to the Jews. The Church of Christ believe the Gospels

are not to us, but I believe that are to us. This is in the book of James and I know to the tribes of Israel but there are a lot of

scriptures in James: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in

their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. I think you would agree that this scripture is to us about the

Pure religion and its in the same book of James. I believe its to us and can see if someone believes that a man can't quit

doing anything like adultery before being saved would want it to be to Israel.I will preach until I die that all men can go to

heaven if they will believe that Jesus is the Christ, repent and be born again, not of a corruptle seed but by an incorruptle. I

don't preach tales either and I am not one who spends all my time in the stand weeping trying to draw those by my tears. I

preach the word so people will know the truth and let it fall where ever the Lord chooses to send it.

I know if you heard me preach, you would disagree with quite a bit of my preaching for I preach salvation to all that will

believe. I preach to the congregation that God loves you and its not His will that you perish. I preach the Gospel to every

creature and he that believeth and is baptized (Holy Ghost baptism) shall be saved. Works don't save anyone and salvation is

of the Lord (only and completely), but a man must believe. Since the beginning with Abel until now, man must have faith. I

believe that God is an all knowing God and knew I would believe, therefore he not only called me but predestinated me to be

conformed to the image of His Son, not only me but all that believed He predestinated them also to be conformed to the

image of His Son, He justified me because of that belief, He will glorify me because of that belief that he knew of before I was

ever born, but because He knew does not mean that he

decreed it to happen. I had a choice to choose to walk after the flesh and die or walk after the Spirit and live. If I had to walk

after the Spirit, why did God tell me to preach it if it was already going to happen. If I were prechosen, why in the world are

we preaching to the people to repent? I don't understand that at all. Again, it is required of every man everywhere to repent

and that includes all, if they want to go to Heaven and escape a devil's hell and the Lake of Fire.

If I heard you preach, I would agree with most of everything you said, until you got on God decreed me to be saved along with

a few others. You mentioned preaching to my children. I would want you to tell my children that God loves them and wants

the to believe in His Son, Jesus Christ and that Jesus died for the sin of the world so they did not have to perish and for them

to be saved they must believe this and repent or they will perish also.

old regular
12-08-2006, 09:39 PM
I am not in favor of people living in any kind of sin , I do believe there is an innocent party at times in some marriage cases, some of our correspondence will not recieve a divorced and re-married person even if they put their former spouse away for fornication and married a clean companion, I believe the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, that we don't repent to get the gifts and calling of God but rather because we have recieved them, I don't think the cleanse ye hands verse is limited to just the Jews nor do I use the Jews to avoid a text like some do with ephesians chapter one, I do believe he is talking to the church and even it is Hebrews we should profit from it, sometimes when working outside a gnat would get in my milk and I would take it out, and finish my milk, but if a green fly got in my milk I dumped it out, so with preaching if someone preached that verse to the world and said that it was Christ blood they were to wash their hands in, and it was the Holy Spirit they were to purify their hearts with, and this they could only do through Grace and through the Spirit it would only be a gnat in my milk, and I would still finish the glass, if they preached that they by nature they were to cleanse their hands that would be a green fly, if a person has repented with a GODLY sorrow, then evidence of that would be that they have departed from evil and would not that be understanding caused by the fear of the Lord ?God quickens us in our sins and saves us from our sins,and the women caught in the act was to go and sin no more. I write these things for our understanding that we may look at where we are coming from, and I hope that my comments are not taken by anyone as to mean that I would be little a brother, Brother Bob I know what you would like for your children to hear but if that was not available and you do not have to answer, I would rather my children heard you preach than sommeone down the road saying repeat after me, or someone preaching that they must satisfy the wrath of God through their own sufferings, so what I am saying is there are preachers in your correspondence that have preached heresies, that far exceed the disagreements on this site, and even if I held your position fully, and felt that the other side of ORB were wrong, I would think sovereign grace would be easier to digest, than Christ did not die for our sins, you have to suffer and pay for your own. Bro. Mike

Brother Bob
12-08-2006, 09:55 PM
I guess what I was asking Brother Mike is would you accept a drunk man in and baptize him?

Oh, I think you preach what I preach and I believe in a Sovereign God that you preach. I just don't believe it takes away from

God's sovereignity for Him to create man with the ability to choose. It is still Him doing it all. I could cleanse my hands all I

want but it still would take Jesus to save me. I just don't think He would save me while I was in the act of adultery.

I am one who takes the innocent party also. I believe what Jesus said "except the cause of fornication".

If I told you I believe that man that was drunk should get sober before you receive him and baptize him, and that is what I

mean by "cleansing hands", would you accept that?

Bro. James Reed
12-09-2006, 11:41 PM
I guess what I was asking Brother Mike is would you accept a drunk man in and baptize him?

Oh, I think you preach what I preach and I believe in a Sovereign God that you preach. I just don't believe it takes away from

God's sovereignity for Him to create man with the ability to choose. It is still Him doing it all. I could cleanse my hands all I

want but it still would take Jesus to save me. I just don't think He would save me while I was in the act of adultery.

I am one who takes the innocent party also. I believe what Jesus said "except the cause of fornication".

If I told you I believe that man that was drunk should get sober before you receive him and baptize him, and that is what I

mean by "cleansing hands", would you accept that?

I'm going to jump in this conversation with just a few comments.

If someone comes to the church that is a known drunkard and asks to join the church, I would think that the church would have to examine the man to make sure he has left that lifestyle behind. If he is continuing to live in sin, whether by being a drunkard, or an adulterer, or what have you, then, no, the church can receive such a person as a member and authorize their baptism.

However, that does not negate the fact that our baptism in water has nothing whatsoever to do with our eternal salvation. If a person feels the spirit within them leaning them to join the church, whether they actually submit completely and rid themselves of their sinful lifestyle and choose to join in this "heaven on earth" that we have in the church, that is evidence to me that they are a blood-washed child of God, disobedient though they may be.

My grandfather was an alcoholic for 20+ years. He tried to quit about 2 months before he died because he so wanted to join the church and be baptised, but he knew he would have to give up that lifestyle. He would cry like a baby every Sunday because he knew he was living wrong. He had planned to join our church 3rd weekend September 1985 because we were having an annual meeting for which my grandmother's baby brother, an elder, would be attending. Papaw wanted Uncle James to baptise him. My grandpa died of kidney and liver failure on September 6, 1985, a month after he'd quit drink and 2 weeks before he was to join the church and be baptised.

He may have never hit the water in baptism, and he may not have stayed off the alcohol this time (he'd tried to quit numerous times before), but my heart is completely satisfied that Papaw was a child of God and that he is living in the Holy City today.

Church membership does not determine Heaven's population.

Brother Bob
12-10-2006, 06:27 AM
Your grandfather had at least quit a month before he died, and who am I or anyone else to say whether he went to heaven or not. We are stewards of the church here on earth, and are compelled to act in such a way as to not eat with fornicators, etc.
I have had similar cases where someone did not receive water baptisim, and I certainly felt they made it. We had one ,the brothers were carrying in their arms to the water, and died on the way.
Also, an acoholic to me would be much different than someone in adultery. If someone told me he just couldn't quit adultery I would not believe him and would not have a hope for him if he died similiar to your Papaw.
I respect your answer, and I am glad your Papaw left you a hope. Even he knew, though by the tears he shed, that it was needful to quit certain things before becoming a member of the earthly church. I certainly respect him for that. He knew more than a lot who are stewards over the churches today. Merry Christmas,

Gr8iZthHrvst
12-12-2006, 11:17 AM
I began my prayer life at age 3 on my knees beside my bed. This is an early recollection of being introduced to God and Jesus. I am 51 now and I have journied far in this time. Many changes have taken place since that time and today I am steadfastly trudging a path that has been nearly overthrown by the adversary on many occassion; but God alone has seen me this far. I have a web site which is Harvestcross.com that is a sign of who I am, what I believe, what I am doing for Him, and what I believe that God wants us to do if we are living for Him and are fully aware and believe in the Great Commission.

Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. God's word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes that which He designed and designated it to do.

I know that Christianity has broken off many times, that people have taken it upon themselves to start different churches and have even changed God's original word and have reworked its meaning to suite their own needs.

God said that He knows the desires of our heart, and that He wants us to have the desires of our heart. Thus; the Harvestcross is a sign to the world that we live in that we do love God and that we are a participating in the Great Commission for God. That we are not ashamed, that we are not closet Christians, and that our most loving heavenly Father is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him and who desire to do His will in and through us. Jesus said that if we were ashamed of Him, that His Father would be ashamed of us. In the same; Jesus said that if we deny Him to others that He would deny us before His Father which is in Heaven.

Peace and Love from "(the) Harvestcross"

OldRegular
12-12-2006, 01:32 PM
Dear Brother Pinyobaptist,
I suppose this was a result of several factors related to colonial American history. Among these was prohibition by colonial government supported religions. In Virginia, the Anglican church prohibited any from assembling more than once per month unless the preacher was licensed by the Anglican church. Baptists and I suppose other groups could meet in a home, one time per month, but never in the same location for two consecutive months.

Perhaps transportation and other issues were at fault also. In Kentucky, Baptists were busy trying to establish their homes, avoid or battle Native American raids, until things became settled they would meet together in the nearest home and where ever a man was found to be called to preach they would hold services as such.

There are many missionary Baptists here in the Glasgow area who retain this 1x per month meeting.

I will try to find the source for my statements above and post it later; especially in regards to the restrictions by established societies prohibiting baptists from meeting more often.

IMHO, this is a hold over from those days, I may be completely wrong however, we haven't had any Indian uprisings here for years :D

Hope that helps. I think the information concerning Ky can be found in John Taylor's writings; and that concerning Va. I think I found in Jeffery Morehouse's The Indomintable Baptist

But don't hold me to those sources, I will check them and post them for sure later.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Frogman,

I believe you are correct that the once a month meeting is the result of tradition originating from colonial days. I do not believe that it is the result of lack of preachers since most of the Old Regular services I have attended usually had 3-4 men preach and others who wanted to.

OldRegular
12-12-2006, 02:06 PM
The following is a brief summary of my belief in the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace in Salvation of the Elect.

Salvation, the Work of the Triune Godhead

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect through regeneration by the Holy Spirit and union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

During his earthly ministry Jesus Christ expressed this truth by the following simple statements:

John 5:21 KJV
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 10:26-29, KJV
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fatherís hand.

The doctrine of the sovereignty of God in Salvation is clearly expressed in the Covenant of Grace. This Covenant, an eternal covenant, is best understood as a covenant in which the three Divine Persons in the Godhead co-operate in manís salvation [Psalms 2:8; 40: 6-8; 59:3; Isaiah 49: 3-12; John 17:6; Hebrews 13:20; Titus 1:2] and is summarized as follows:

1. It is God the Father who foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].

2. It is God the Son who agrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].

3. It is God the Holy Spirit who agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father and who regenerates and effectually calls those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].

The Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome clearly defines the sovereignty of God in salvation:

Romans 1:16, KJV
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

That the sovereignty of God is effective in the salvation of the elect is demonstrated in the following Scripture.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:1-8, KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 6:37-44, KJV
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Fatherís will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

From this sampling of many such Scripture we see that:

1. It is God the Father who foreknew and chose His people before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
2. It is God the Father who predestinated that His people would be conformed to the image of his Son [ Romans 8:30] that they might be adopted as His children [Ephesians 1: 5], made accepted in the beloved [ Ephesians 1:6] and become heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8: 16, 17].
3. It is God the Son who humbles Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, Jesus Christ, and sheds His blood on a Roman cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
4. It is God the Holy Spirit, who applies the work of the Jesus Christ to those chosen by God unto salvation so that none are lost [John 6: 37, 39, 40, 44].
5. It is the Triune God who, in time, will regenerate, call, justify, and glorify those whom He chose to Salvation before the foundation of the world, therefore, they can never fall away or lose that Salvation [Romans 8:28-30].

The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the sovereignty of God. By sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve, to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the sovereignty of God in salvation. God not only takes the initiative in salvation but completes that good work.

Philippians 1:6, KJV
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Brother Bob
12-12-2006, 02:20 PM
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Honestly if all people deserve hell then to what purpose was creation? Who would be to blame? Man? God? Who? Hyper-Calvinism and it's Hard Determinism ultimately blames God for a failed creation that only serves to demonstrate His authority? Are we to believe that God chief attribute is vanity?

more later.

Romans, chapter 11
1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

"2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

"3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

"4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

"5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(By Grace are ye saved through faith "believing") You must believe that I am He.
"6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

"7": What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

"8": (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

"9": And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

"10": Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

"11": I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 10: (Aposltle Paul also)
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Brother Bob
12-12-2006, 02:27 PM
We are saved by Grace, through faith and not of our selves but it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast for we are His workmanship.
Ephesians, chapter 2
8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
"14": For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

"15": Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
So here Apostle Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law.
Acts, chapter 16

29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So here we see the same Apostle Paul says we do need the works of "believing". So let us rightly divide the word of truth. It takes "faith" in Eph: and it takes "belief" in Acts.

Romans, chapter 8

"28": And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

"29": For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"30": Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Squire Robertsson
12-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Brethren, this is the Baptist History Forum not the Theology Forum. Please keep that in mind while discussing these matters.
Robertsson the Northern Regular Baptist.

OldRegular
12-12-2006, 04:57 PM
Brethren, this is the Baptist History Forum not the Theology Forum. Please keep that in mind while discussing these matters.
Robertsson the Northern Regular Baptist.

I apologize for my late post, however, Baptist History cannot be separated from Baptist Theology. Thomas Nettles in his book By His Grace and For His Glory describes the sad departure of Baptists from the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.[Jude 1:3]

old regular
12-12-2006, 07:00 PM
I have not been able to post for some reason ,after I hit submit reply, its lost and does not appear. Bro.Mike

Brother Bob
12-12-2006, 07:09 PM
Hit advance before you try to post and then post Bro Mike. It works better.

old regular
12-14-2006, 05:22 PM
1The New Salem Association ORB has shifted it's doctrine back and forth through the years, most of the time it depended on who was their current leaders, the Articles of Faith they now carry, I can not find,nor believe that they were the original articles, Union has kept hers,Mates Creek has not ,Sandlick of Ky is the same as the Union and are most likely original,Sardis,NNS have altered theirs. In 1927 after the death of N.T Hopkins who appears to have had leanings toward the Arminian outlook, [not totally] The New Salem went right back to a very strong calvinistic position, this can be ascertained by looking at both the sermons preached and circular letters written, they were never to my knowledge absolute predestination ,but being a large association a small minorty could have existed among them, and they were most likely the ones who wrote in the Old Faith Contender, 1927 resolution number #4" Resolved, that we have the Articles of Faith,Rules of Decorum and Consititution printed in our minutes, WHEREAS, sometime since our association in the year 1888, there has been omitted from our minutes certain articles of faith ,and rules of decorum as PRINTED DIFFERENT to our original, for ,be it further resolved that we here by authorize the clerk to have printed the exact Rules of Decorum,Articles of Faith and Consitution as printed in our minutes in the year 1888." Note the articles then printed that year match the Burning Spring and the article on election according to the foreknowledge of God is listed as #4 I was told by some brothers of yesteryear that New Salems current Articles were never the legal ,as they were presented as the original and were not, and if anyone would take the time and read the records they would find this error, also that New Salem falsely stated that they had never been identfied with the Particular Baptist when they had churches in their own ranks that came from Particular Baptist and for years the corresponded with Mud River who came from a Particular Baptist Association and also part of the Friendship, It is my belief that these actions were through lack of knowledge of the facts, some believe it was done intentional, but as they are all deceased one may never know, the current articles however seem to include the same doctrines as the other except for the one concerning particular election and reprobation{double predestination, supralapsarnism was supposed to be their main intent}according to the old brothers it was placed to keep one from going to far in one direction,and the others were to keep you from going to far the other way, but as any historian can see New Salem has always had a mixture in the preaching department with one side or the other in control of the association, today it would be under leadership far more arminian than N.T Hopkins but not totally Freewill. Bro.Mike

old regular
12-14-2006, 05:22 PM
1The New Salem Association ORB has shifted it's doctrine back and forth through the years, most of the time it depended on their current leaders, at the time in question.The Articles of Faith they now carry, I can not find,nor believe that they were the original articles, Union has kept hers,Mates Creek has not ,Sandlick of Ky is the same as the Union and are most likely original,Sardis,NNS have altered theirs. In 1927 after the death of N.T Hopkins who appears to have had leanings toward the Arminian outlook, [not totally] The New Salem went right back to a very strong calvinistic position, this can be ascertained by looking at both the sermons preached and circular letters written, they were never to my knowledge absolute predestination ,but being a large association a small minorty could have existed among them, and they were most likely the ones who wrote in the Old Faith Contender, 1927 resolution number #4" Resolved, that we have the Articles of Faith,Rules of Decorum and Consititution printed in our minutes, WHEREAS, sometime since our association in the year 1888, there has been omitted from our minutes certain articles of faith ,and rules of decorum as PRINTED DIFFERENT to our original, for ,be it further resolved that we here by authorize the clerk to have printed the exact Rules of Decorum,Articles of Faith and Consitution as printed in our minutes in the year 1888." Note the articles then printed that year match the Burning Spring and the article on election according to the foreknowledge of God is listed as #4 I was told by some brothers of yesteryear that New Salems current Articles were never the legal ,as they were presented as the original and were not, and if anyone would take the time and read the records they would find this error, also that New Salem falsely stated that they had never been identfied with the Particular Baptist when they had churches in their own ranks that came from Particular Baptist and for years they corresponded with Mud River who came from a Particular Baptist Association and also part of the Friendship, It is my belief that these actions were through lack of knowledge of the facts, some believe it was done intentional, but as they are all deceased one may never know, the current articles however seem to include the same doctrines as the other except for the one concerning particular election and reprobation{double predestination, supralapsarnism was supposed to be their main intent}according to the old brothers it was placed to keep one from going to far in one direction,and the others were to keep you from going to far the other way, but as any historian can see New Salem has always had a mixture in the preaching department with one side or the other in control of the association, today it would be under leadership far more arminian than N.T Hopkins but not totally Freewill. Bro.Mike

Brother Bob
12-14-2006, 06:09 PM
This is 1893 article of faith of the Sardis Association.

6th: We believe in the free atonement of Jesus Christ and that He tasted death for every man and that salvation is offered to all men and women upon the terms of the Gospel.

I think I can honestly say that all associations that correspond with the New Salem and also the New Salem itself will agree with the above article today.

old regular
12-15-2006, 09:46 AM
Does the Sardis still carry that article? if not, why not, I do not doubt that most of your correspondence believe in the free atonement of Jesus Christ and that he tasted death for every man, the problem with that article which Old Friendship carries, and most United Baptist (which is what you are closer too, than the original Regular Baptist.)is not so much the atonement question, as far as Calvinist they are very much split on that issue, since Fuller, but its more with the terms of the Gospel, that would be the real question does the Sardis Believe that one can only be saved by hearing a local preacher, many who carry that article do. The New Salem Records are open to the public and the statements I have made can be found there, they were not originally to go too far into Fatalism or Arminism many felt though ,the beloved N.T Hopkins had went too far and even some of the Union brothers preached their text from Ephesians Chapter 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world......................." Some statements were made about the beloved N.T after he had taken ill, I do not recall the statement, and Union was dropped, these associations are falliable, and have been since the Jerusalem council, It is great error to argue against the word of God in favor of the traditions of men, the election was not for the Jews only, though granted there was a special remnant that was to be brought from the law and become the New testament Church, but that does not mean that God saves the Gentiles by their freewill and ability, or has two ways of saving people , Romans 9:23-24" Andthat he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? also look @ Acts concerning the Gentiles as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation, IIThess 2:13 also look @I Thess. 1:4 remember these are Gentiles that have the faith of God's elect Col 3:12 we could go on and on the old testament has many examples back to history The Sardis association when I visted had brothers who believed that God forknew his seed both Jews and Gentiles, that he manifested him self to all, Brother Wayne made the statement you could not be a good old Regular Baptist and not believe in predestination, none of these brothers advocated at any time absolute predestination nor did they advocate men turning around by their own ability, but believed that God elected a seed of faith that was promised to Abraham they did not touch the atonement, but I believe that they believed that Christ shed enough blood to save the whole world but it would only be applied to the believer, they did not hold foreknowledge and predestination as the same thing ,and stated that to do so has caused the Baptist much hurt. I knew Isom Hannah, Paul Vance,Joe Evans a brother Thornsberry,John Lowe, Edwin Hay , Tommy Dials, and many more they all seemed to have different opinions on many issues but they preached to gether, and I do remember that Isom Hannah preached at the Little Rebecca Church, Whom he did foreknow ,he also did predestinate etc........... and when he finished Edwin Hay followed and said Brother Isom does believe that men and women should repent, there may be a tape of that service somewhere but there are still people living that can attest to it. So look at Article 3 in the Sardis associations Articles of faith" We believe in the doctrine of election by Grace,for by grace are ye saved through faith. Article 4 We believe in the doctrine of original sin and of man's Inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, therefore a Saviour is needed for our redemption.Now ask any theologian what those articles are stating, or look at your sister the Union's articles with the scripture proofs it is located on page 67 History Of the Regular Baptist, Do you believe these articles and their Bible Proofs? if so why can't we all come together under these articles , and the New Salems statements on Fatalism and works of the creature and try to reason with one anthor, when the Seperates and Regulars came together to form the Uniteds they had different views on some of these same items but made it no bar to communion, I listed some brothers from your own assocition that difffered on things but for years they got along How and why? And why can't all old regulars get along politics and envy, I was told it was the dress code, but I know different, there are most likely more sisters wearing pants on your side than in Thorton Union, I have seen Sisters from the Sardis,Old Friendship, NNS,Union, Indian Bottom wearing pants in public even serving brothers their dinner after church.I do not beleive in sisters wearing pants, make-up,cutting their hair, excessive adornments etc..., your sister associations say the same New Salem and Philadelphia, but what does Sardis practice on this issue?Food for thought, also how many times have the associations answered the adultrey question diffferently, or masonary,??? these associations shift with the politics of the day, and have been turned by the influence of popular preachers, instead of searching the scriptures and fasting and praying. Brother Mike P.S I still think there needs to be a doctine,faith and practice thread for the different factions of old school baptist. Also the Mates Creek nor the Sandlick at this time endorse absolute predestination of all things, nor would they endorse a brother advocating that God was the cause of ones sins, they to have shifted through different doctrines at one time MC was in correspondence with the Uniteds , also Indian Bottom Elders helped according to Sandlick history, ordain a Brother in the Sandklick after the split also Regular Baptist Elders ordained Elders in the Mountain, when they had no correspondence .today they would most likely exclude them, New Salem seated brothers from the a Primitive Baptist association in N.C under transientministers and members, the Union brothers and Mates Creek preached memorials together after the divide.MS

old regular
12-15-2006, 10:15 AM
Please note, that there are two who use the old regular login, one is capital mine is not, he is from S.C ,I am from Liberty ,Ky he is very knowledgeable in the Old Regular Faith and Order and I enjoy his posts, I believe he is some relation to one of the past moderators of the Old Union Association.Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
12-15-2006, 12:29 PM
You do know why Brother Edwin said when he came to the stand that Brother Isom does believe a man must repent, don't you? It was because Brother Isom and all of us fail to make things as clear as we should sometimes and it looks like we believe something to the extreme. Mike if you know Edwin Hay, ask him who has stood for the old time way all these years and been the spokesman for the strong ones, besides him and a few others. Brother Edwin, even though he is not longer with us, still come to where I moderate.

You can take an article and read in in such a way as to go to the extreme one way. Or you can read it so that we believe the atonement was made, but a man must believe to receive it. We also believe, that the Spirit of God is striving with all men and only those who believe are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, Predestinated to be Justified by the blood of Christ, predestinated to be Glorified. We believe in a all knowing God who is everlasting to everlasting and knows the beginning from the end. Just because God knows who will believe and who will not believe, does not mean He caused it to happen that way.
We believe that God is outside of time but does work in time when He wants, but being outside of time, He knows us before we are born, even from the beginning of time and also knows who will believe or not believe but does not cause it to happen that way. We believe because God is outside of time that He has already seen our death and resurrection. We believe He is our all and all.

Here is our orders of today. I am sure these are New Salem's orders also.

ARTICLE 4. We believe in the doctrine of original sin and of man's inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, therefore the Saviour is needed for our redemption.
ARTICLE 5. We believe that sinners are called to repentance and believe in the Gospel and regeneration of the soul and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and none shall fall away and be lost.
ARTICLE 6. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

So, you see we are not so different from you. Its just we believe this opporunity happens to all.

I have had some debates with the other Old Regular. I don't think he cares much for me. I am pretty plain in how I stand in the scriptures and I think offends some. I believe what I believe. Its not meant to offend any, but if those of us on here can't disagree and still debate then we shouldn't be on here.

Mike, men will always change. It may come the time where we have to be completely alone. I fought the double marriage thing to the end and if you know anyone in the Sardis they will tell you who was the last one standing when they over ruled me. It took them over 30 years to get enough to out do those of us who still hold to the old doctrine on the double marriage. We do believe in the innocent party and the Church I take care of still works that way, regardless what the Association did.

Brother Bob
12-15-2006, 08:09 PM
Let me add that we believe the Spirit of God is there striving with all men, standing at the door of our heart and knocking. We must believe that Jesus is the Christ and let the Spirit lead us to Christ who is the one who saves man.
We also believe if we don't ever make an attempt to change we will die and go to a devil's hell.

old regular
12-15-2006, 09:11 PM
Brother Bob, I have never heard anyone preach in the Old Regulars who did not believe that the Holy Ghost reproves the world of sin, your statement that it is the believer that is justified, or is to be conformed to his image, would be accepted throughout the Regular Baptist, they may get to that point different than you would,but would not reject your statement, that Christ knocks at the door some would rebuke and say that he is talking to the members, of that church and that would be right, but through out the New Testament he spoke to the non-elect, he told them that they had not the Love of God in them, that they would not come to him, that they believed not because they were none of his sheep, I say that you answered well, much better than I thought you would , I may have misunderstood some of your debates, I read on here, Bro. Isom was not extreme, but a sound Regular Baptist who preached balanced. He gift was a very great loss. I am not a supralapsarian Calvinist though I have freinds who are but they are not Old Regulars . Bro.Mike

Brother Bob
12-16-2006, 07:51 AM
I know it was the seven churches of Asia but they did not have Christ the ones He was speaking to so they could not of been the saved but the unsaved. It plainly says, if you will "open the door" I will come in and sup with you and you with me. There were many in the churches of those days who were not saved as there are some and maybe many today also who are not saved but are in the visible church but not in the "CHURCH". I think you will agree with that.

I had gotten very close to Brother Isom and at last the wise old brethren had passed and Brother Isom had accepted me as one of the ones he turned to when things were going wrong. I remember one case in particular on the double marriage. I miss him and others. I miss Brother Ed May more than any, for he had a gift of holding everyone together. I am getting old in this myself Brother Mike. Are you really just 43?

Mark 16:

"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Isa 45:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=45&verse=22&version=kjv#22)Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Ecc 9:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Ecc&chapter=9&verse=11&version=kjv#11)I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race [is] not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread

to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.


Eph 1:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&verse=13&version=kjv#13)In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(you see they heard the word before they believed)

No one has the love of God in them when they first hear the word.

Brother Jeremy Slone
12-16-2006, 01:53 PM
I know it was the seven churches of Asia but they did not have Christ the ones He was speaking to so they could not of been the saved but the unsaved. It plainly says, if you will "open the door" I will come in and sup with you and you with me. There were many in the churches of those days who were not saved as there are some and maybe many today also who are not saved but are in the visible church but not in the "CHURCH". I think you will agree with that.


1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save theyself, and them that hear thee.
Does Timothy need to be saved? I do not believe its talking about eternal life here but saved from false doctrine. The Church "old regulars" doesn't offer communion to non members but members. but some times the members do not take communion and miss out. I believe that Christ will sup with them was the Groom to the Bride. i believe She was the Bride.
But yes many children of God in the Church need to be saved, not eternal but here in time. We need to walk closer. Romans 8:12-14 these are things that children of God in the Church need to do. most things in the bible address the children of God how to live here in time. But yes there are people in the visible who are not the elect of God and they have their agenda. This is why we as old regulars need to study our bibles and not wrestle a scripture to make it mean nothing. i don't want to kill the soft scripture or the hard.

Brother Bob
12-16-2006, 02:07 PM
I called you didn't answer,
I knocked, you didn't open,
I was sick, you visited me not
I was hungry, you fead me not,

Lord when, as often as you did it to one of these little ones you did it unto me.

Again we change the words "if any man".

old regular
12-16-2006, 10:01 PM
Brother Bob I am 43, looking forward to being a Papaw in January, my 2nd oldest daughter and her husband are expecting a little boy both of them are members at Blessed Hope Old Regular Baptist in Adair County Ky near Liberty(largest town) this church has a lot of young people attending services there, our other churches have young also, Mt.Zion has the fewest, it was an older church which was originally in the New Salem, it was called Little Maudie until Bro.Newt Vanderpool had a dream to change their name to Mt.Zion, I was the moderator there when the split with NNS came about over grape juice and wine, I was raised up in Pleasant View, Little Edna,Little Rebecca, Pilgrim Home churches mainly, though we visted different churches mostly in the NNS, The Lord spoke to me when I was 16 years old but I had many impressions prior to that, I went through a travail and had felt the burdens lifted when I was seventeen, I gave my hand to the Pleasant View Church and was baptised that evening in Oct 1980 started preaching several months later, I have been Blessed to have been able to have preached in churches, In the NNS,Indian Bottom,Old Indian Bottom,New Salem(I was a member in this association at one time)Old Friendship,Sardis,Philadelphia,Union,Mud River,ThortonUnion,Mountain,Mountain Liberty,Bethel,Sovereign Grace,Mountain Valley,Sandlick,Northwestern,Primitive Baptist and United Baptist churches I have never preached in The Friendship or the othersides of Mud River or Mountain, Little Dove and Cumberland no longer exist, there are other Regular Baptist associations I would like to vist, I also would like to note that what ever association I was in ,I kept their order concerning these matters, and I have seperated my service when required by them so as to keep down confusion, and not break the order of the association I was a member of. I have over all been well recieved through out these groups, that does not mean that we all agreed on everything, if we did , we would not be Baptist so I am going on 27 years, I have been an Old Regular Baptist but a christian first, but I love the old school baptist and I don't believe one church is as good as anthor, if there were no Old Regulars, I would be an old time United or Primitive, I could not see me belonging to a modern church even if it was called Baptist after I have felt and seen the things that I have, I know of no other churches any closer to the New Testament pattern than these, and most of our disagreements are over scriptures that are open to different views by the way they are worded, I myself have changed my views on some of these verses after being better enlightened on them, but at one time would have debated with the best of them that what I saw in them was right, but now I am more concerned with preaching them the way that God intended them to be preached ,rather than to try to hold on to some pet doctrine out of pride, if I preach a doctrine or system that is wrong I would rather be corrected, then to continue in some error ,just not to hurt some brothers feeling, I believe the Sovereign Grace Association's Churches preach a God honoring doctrine that comes from his record, we are not fatalist nor arminian nor are we perfect, we try to keep good order, showing mercy when we can, but passing judgements when needed. I have seen the many errors in the Old Baptist and with some of their associations and have tried to correct some of those errors, there has been many things said about me, some true, some lies, I am not as hard as some on that side say(mainly my enemies) and I still have many friends even in your correspondence , who if asked would tell you the truth about Mike Slone and some of those brothers even hold different views from me, but they will not lie on me, and for that I am thankful, I was hurt tremendously by some in the NNS and it was not over doctrine as they would like people to believe, nor was it really over communion practices, it had to do with association politics ,votes for moderator and jealously, the wine in communion was an excuse, they sent a commitee on me one time because a Sister had passed away that had been given a letter in an arm to form a new church her name was read because she was on the letter, it was also noted she had died, before the church was organized. It was not my fault she had passed away, the letter was read as it had been written prior to her death, our churches were stripped of their rights to even debate in their own association, they were told to keep the Bible out of it they knew what they believed, I gave a speech one time and everyone was allowed to give cat calls, interupt etc.... with Brother Roy not saying a word to reprove them or ask them to keep the rules of decorum, at which time my mother got up and spoke her peace, and told them about their secret plots being made outside the building and even young children hearing them plotting against thier brothers ,out of order also but no worse than they. The speech was asking them to reprint their own order on Arminian Doctrine and that of their sister associations, afterwards Bro.Walter Akers told me that this side of Old Regular Baptist [NNS]had already departed so far from the original, it would be nothing but trouble to ask them to return to the old doctrine and old ways, and what I needed was a good history book with the old letters in it to study and read, he sent me the New Salem records, and said wait till you are older, they resent a young brother telling them they are wrong even if it is true, but even through it all, I have always loved them and still believe the Old Baptist Family to be the Church of God, nor do I blame everyone for the politics of one association, that since Brother Baxter ,seemed to loose most of its ability to reason, and begin to try to govern the churches, which makes it an illegal body, assuming power not granted to an association, I recieved a call just this week from a brother ,who said that he feels the Old Regular's would do much better without associations, which leave agreements and try to lord over God's heritage. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
12-17-2006, 04:25 PM
Hi Mike:
You are well learned for a 43 year old. Your voice makes you sound older also, unless you get hoarse like me after preaching.

Guess what I preached on today. Every hear of "predestination". :)

old regular
12-17-2006, 09:40 PM
I get hoarse like you, the Blessed Hope Church is in a area where there is no, lined singing, so it has been very different , for our congergation, most of them were not raised in an Old Regular Baptist Church and they are just learning to line, for that I am thankful, I still do alot of the lined singing, and some weekends, I have preached three to five sermons, so I sound different, I am thankful just to have a voice, the old moderator at Pleasant View, Alex Collier lost his singing voice and can only sing at certain times, he was a very gifted singer, and one of the best I ever heard at doing church work, growing up I heard some of the best old time singers around, Ivan Amburgey, Buddy Carty, Harlos Hall the Edward brothers, I still can remember some of Brother Ivan's sermons, I was only five at the time, but his preaching was very simple at times and he had a wonderful voice, he now belongs at the Little Dove in the Indian Bottom. Predestination is a wonderful doctrine if kept in the limits of God's word, but I have seen some trying to use it, to justify their sins(not ORB)and try to make God the author of sin, which is very hurtful to the cause, I find no such thing in the record of God nor do I believe that God predestinated the fall of Adam, I believe he foreknew the fall of Adam, and purposed to save the believing part of Adam's posterity through the election of grace, , that Christ is the Testator for the seed of faith .Take care for now, John Calvin(kidding) Bro.Mike Slone

Brother Bob
12-17-2006, 09:55 PM
I doubt if I preached it just like you would have it Mike. I preached it ,the call has gone out to all men, as in when Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me, also, come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved for I am God and besides me there is none other, and you must believe first, then you are confromed to the image of His Son, as was predestinated for the believers, Which means to become Christlike, then justified and Glorified inwardly and in the resurrection outwardly. I also preached the plan of God was predestinated. I emphasised that "you must believe" or you will die in your sins. I preached that God is everlasting to everlasting and knows the beginning from the end, that He know who will believe and who will not. I preached that He is outside of time and has already seen our death and our resurrection, but because He knows does not mean that He cause us to believe or disbelieve that He gave us that same choice that He gave Adam but that He already knows whether we will believe in Christ or not.

Predestination is a tricky subject to preach, if you go too far one way then you make God partial. If you go too far the other way then you preach that man can save himself. You can look at people's faces and see if they are getting the message and all that were in the house today, were alighten and happy. I came home feeling good for once. It is not always that I come home feeling that way.

Calvin wouldn't claim me or I him. He was responsible for too many people losing their lives.

I know what I preached is different than what you believe but I guess the difference is I put the belief first for I do believe the dead in sin can hear.

Mike, have you ever thought about when Adam and Eve eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, from that day forward man knew good and evil and too know good, you would have to know there is a God for that is the only place good came from. And we are multiplied Adam. To say the dead do not know anything is to deny the Bible. I will speak of my own experience and when I was a sinner, I knew it.

I know Ivan, we are not friends or anything, but have heard him several times. Doubt that He has heard me, but I sing in Brother Hiram Adkins funeral and the moderator of Indian Bottom, Brother Elwood and his Assistant Brother Fields sat up on the stand with us. Brother Ivan lived around Fleming Neon, for I saw him at the High School one night, when my grandchild was graduating.

old regular
12-18-2006, 07:35 AM
I never had any doubt that you preached it different than I would. I would preach it different than John Calvin myself, I was just having a little fun at your expense, I can't help it, original sin and all, please forgive me!! Brother Ivan and the Indian Bottom are different on several issues, from my home church.That is one reason we never joined them, but there is a lot of good brothers and sisters in that association.I think the other associations should have restricted their communion with them,but continued to preach with them and maintained some type of communication, they are now larger than Union or New salem and appear to have quite a few young ministers, some appear to be studying and searching the scriptures, which I feel is a very postive sign.Brother Mike

Brother Bob
12-18-2006, 08:26 AM
Yea, I agree. We had a meeting, which included them at the Old Beaver Church, trying to restore correspondence but the double married preachers, still stood in our way. At that time the one who purchased their association building, was still with them and had a lot of influence. I don't want to mention his name on here, but if they had never put him up to preach the introductory sermon, I don't think there would of been a split. He has since passed away, and he was from over here where I live, but ended up over there because of coal business, I think. I personally wish we could work something out, for we have things among us that is as bad as anything they have, as far as I know. People's heads get hard after a split, and to get back together is almost an impossibility. I think they are good people myself, but figure the leaders think I am a hard head, but really I just want to follow order. Hope you have a good Christmas with your family and that all goes well with that grandbaby that is on the way.

old regular
12-21-2006, 10:45 PM
I have been working on a more condensed history, for the History Page,mostly following and tracing the Sovereign Grace Association's orgins and history, but it will be awhile before its done, a new updated history of the Regular Baptist may be in the works eventually.Elder Wesely Yonts has one called the History of the Old Time Baptist of America, its mostly associations from the Primitives and Regulars and the Uniteds it gives brief history on the association he could find out about. I think it is still in print. Bro. Mike Slone

Brother Bob
12-21-2006, 10:59 PM
I am on the committe for collecting all the History on the Sardis Association and putting it in the Pikeville Library and the Belfry Library. I have not did a lot myself personally for we have our retired Clerk on the committee also (Brother Ralph WE Varney) and he is doing most of the work. We are trying to get a minute for every year since 1893 and He told me last Sunday or one before that he thought the Perrigan History would be on record also. I am supposed to get a dvd because I am on the committe when it is all finished. I hope to post it on my site if I have room. I may have to buy a site.

Thanks Bro Mike for the info on Convenant theology. I did some study on it and it seems to be pretty big. Someone ask me if I was one and I really didn't know what to say for I do believe there was a church under the Law and it came up out of the wilderness and Jesus used the remnant to set up the bodily Church or "His". Also, there are several scripture that shows they twain were made one.

old regular
12-22-2006, 10:51 AM
Brother Bob, You would be considered under that category, with some modification on certain points, Regular Baptist theology was developed from those positions we are not dispensationalist, we would only hold to two,law and grace some might consider three the first in the garden and before the law, all Old Regular's are amillenial, though we believe in Last Day theology and a realized millenium, the main theological differences between old Regular's is when does regeneration start, at the hearing of the voice of the Son of God which brings life, enabling the sinner to believe to justification bring about repentence, and then believing the Gospel, which brings life and immortality to light , the hearing is the same as the Grace of God that bringeth salvation, the working of his mighty power, hearing the Word of truth the Gospel of your salvation,(we belive that these two terms are nouns refering to Christ not the preached word because it says in whom(pro noun)also after ye believed,ye were sealed with that Holy spirt of promise, this would be the same as a begotting or a quickening vs regeneration or life starting after one believes, that what the division was over does one have life before they are born or after, there are brothers in the New Salem and the Union that hold to the Bethel position, some of the leaders in those associations told me the first split should never occured and they do feel it should be rehashed seeing the ones who brought the trouble are either dead and in the Union they left after they caused the Spilt, and that the Old Regular Baptist would be a lot stronger if our divisons never happened.The scriptures sometimes read differently, like he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved vs he that believeth hath everlasting life it is our understandings of these that led to the split along with light and life. brother Slone

Brother Bob
12-22-2006, 01:10 PM
Yea, and both sides on the Light has some points. Light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world. If that was eternal life it would be Universalism.
The other side of the coin is Jesus is "the Light" and if you have Jesus then you have "the Light", so you are saved. So, I see an argument on both sides.

I believe in both, I think it is speaking of two different types of light. One that gives eternal life, the other teaching a man that he is a sinner.

old regular
12-22-2006, 01:24 PM
The split that happened between Mates Creek and Sardis, I have been corrected it was not a split between Regulars and Primitives but a split in the Regular Baptist with one side latter taking the name Regular Primitive to say they were the original Regular Baptist, the truth be known neither side preached the doctrine of the original, look at the Philadelphia Confession and you will understand my point.All Primitive Baptist are not Amillenial according to Hassell, neither do they all wash feet. The Old Regular's wash feet and are Amillenial and have excluded those who are not, the Little Collie Church was dropped from the Thorton Union because of premillenialism.Gospel Regeneration was never an accepted doctrine of the Regulars or Primitives but found its way into the Uniteds, some of the Indian Bottom advocate it, but those ministers came from the United, If they believe that God can't reach anyone outside the gospel why do the oppose the use of missionaries?I also have trouble with God needs to send man to help save these people but the devil over there working sending them to hell , without man's aid, God has more power than the devil, further more he quicken whomsoever he will, there are people saved without ever hearing the Gospel ,if you don 't believe me visit some of the modern churches, they have people that profess Christ but whats coming from the stand is not the gospel,REV 14:6 speaks of an angel that preaches the everlasting gospel, Old Regular Baptist believe that the gospel should be preached but that regeneration is by the operation of the Holy Ghost, I knew a blind and deaf Sister in the Philadelphia Association that rejoiced in the Lord and would lean against the wall to feel the vibrations during the meeting, God can speak to us inwardly and outwardly, there is a spirit in man, that God imparts understanding to.He is the only one I know who can talk to the dead and give a hearing to(hearing by the Word of God Christ)that life and immortality can be brought to life, and faith(gospel faith ) can be recieved, and the righteousness of God is revealed.Note there are different factions of primitive baptist or primitvist baptist they have most things in common but differences exist even with in there own groups.Old regular,old line primitive,old united, absoluters,regular primitive,regular united.Bro. Mike

Brother Bob
12-22-2006, 01:59 PM
Col 1:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&verse=23&version=kjv#23)If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

old regular
12-22-2006, 02:01 PM
Bro.Bob, there is also gospel light, the Bethel believe that light recieved is life, some of the Mud River held that light manifested was life, this was because they restrict the verse, that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world to be the church world, not universal world, but I agree with you if light manifested saved and light came into the the world and it lighteth everyman universally, all would be saved, but it is a difference in how the brothers understand the same verses, I believe that light has come into world,and this is the condemnation of the world. The other verse I have yet to understand it as the Church World, it is possible that I may be wrong, but I looked at as Christ manifested, I believe Christ is Light and Is Life so in that since if you have one you have the other, I don't believe that some of the Mud River believe that Christ is ever manifested to unbelievers nor do I understand the Little Zion association of Regular Baptist to believe that anything is ever presented to the non-elect they are simply passed over, some Primitives hold that the outward call of the Gospel is all thats manifested, but most Regulars hold to be unbelief there had to be something manifested to believe, to draw back there had to be something to draw back from,to recieve not the love of the truth, it had to be manifested, nor do we hold that this contradicts election, but leaves the non-elect in a state where they are inexcusable and are the direct author of their own sins and are justly condemned for they would not come to the light, and they can come to something that is not there. Bro.Slone

Brother Bob
12-22-2006, 02:10 PM
But it says "lest" their deed be reproved. To me that is saying they have a chance.

I don't know if I ask you or not but when Adam and Eve eat of the Tree of Knowledge, from that time on man knows good and man knows evil. It seems to me that it is impossible to know good without knowing something about God, for God is "good". There is none good saving the Father. Your thoughts?

Brother Bob
12-22-2006, 02:33 PM
I gotta lay down a while Bro Mike. My legs are killing me. Leave me your answer and I will read it.

old regular
12-22-2006, 02:36 PM
Brother Bob I think even the light of nature would teach one that there is a God, but on Adam and Eve all have not sinned after the simlutude of Adams transgression, they don't come to the light because they love darkness rather than light, they recieved not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved,had they recieved it, they would have been saved and this would not change Gods election, Christ told some "That ye also see me and believe not."They believed not because they were not of his sheep,had they been believers then they would have been given to him from the Father, John 6:64.....For Christ knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."Christ knew this, yet he spoke to them, so it must have been done for judgement purposes there they stood at the door of mercy but could not get in why? because of election and predestination, No because of Unbelief, Light was manifested for Christ is the Light had they through grace believed they would have been justified, but they drew back from Christ unto perdition, the sinfulness and unbelief is from the creature not from God.But God is then just to give them over to the hardness of heart, to believe a lie and be damned, we preach peradventure but God knows all. Bro.Slone

old regular
12-22-2006, 02:40 PM
Thanks Brother Bob for the songbooks, they just arrived!! I am going to quit for now and sing myself down. Brother Mike

Brother Bob
12-22-2006, 04:26 PM
Bro. Mike;
Do you agree or disagree that man because of what Adam did, knows good and evil?

old regular
12-22-2006, 06:47 PM
those who have sinned after simlutude of Adam's transgression, would be the one's knowing moral good and immoral evil, though death has reigned over all, infants and children and some, even adults have not sinned after the simlutude of Adam's trangression and thus would not know the difference, therefore children must be taught,they know how to do wrong it in their fallen nature but to do right they must be taught,Romans 5:14 if we are speaking of the imputation of sin, then we must look at Christ's words John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. I am still not sure what point you are getting at or was it meant to be in the form of a question, I like to answer with scripture and not just an opinion. Brother Mike