Do christians have to eat kosher butchered meat?

[xdisciplex]

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

:confused:

[BobRyan]

Those are OT lev restrictions being quoted in Acts 15. Many people try various means to get away from the Word of God -- and it just keeps "coming back again and again and again"

But the NT saints were STILL to "Love their Neighbor" they were STILL to "Love God with all their heart" they were STILL to "Not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain..." etc.

In others words -- the saints of Acts 15 did not say "HEY -- toss out your Bibles and replace them with these 4 sentences".

AS much as the RCC might like to use that kind of method today - nobody EVER used it as approved by God.

In Christ,

Bob

[Brother Bob]

How would you ever get all the blood out of meat even if they slit their thoats and let all the blood run out. Here in the mountains they still slaughter livestock and they slit their thoats and hang them up by their back feet as quickly as possible so the blood does run out, but that don't sound as "kosher" as OT. We used salt to keep the meat in old days before refrigeration, but it was not to remove blood, but to keep the meat from spoiling.

[BobRyan]

Actually the OT text does not describe much more than draining the animal and removing the fat. Then the meat was either roasted or boiled.

In Christ,

Bob

[billwald]

Ever try to strangle a cow or pig?

[EdSutton]

Ever try to strangle a cow or pig? No, but I'm pretty sure they would not be much in favor of the idea! In fact, I'd guess that they would object very much! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by billwald
Ever try to strangle a cow or pig?

No, but when I was a young man still in the world drinking we decided one night we would steal us a young beef. I talked my cousin into taking a butcher knife, and he was supposed to lay down in the field with the knife. The rest of us were going to run the herd over top of him, and he was supposed to jump up and slit one's throat. We had planned on taking it back to my house and clean it in a bath tub. You can tell we had several drinks at that time. For some reason, my cousin backed out on us, so we did not get the young steer, and my cousin is still alive today!!:laugh: :laugh: True story, and we still roll the floor laughing over that one.

[xdisciplex]

I don't understand anything. Does this mean that christians have to care about all the hundred thousand jewish OT restrictions?

[El_Guero]

No it does not.

I don't understand anything. Does this mean that christians have to care about all the hundred thousand jewish OT restrictions?

[Scarlett O.]

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

If you will, let me explain what this verse means in the context of the whole chapter of Acts 15. Please bear with me as I paraphrase the chapter.

At the beginning of Acts 15 there were Jewish christians teaching that "outsiders", Gentiles who were saved, had to be circumcised too, or that their salvation was not valid.

This made Paul and Barnabas very, very mad and they got into arguments with others over it. So they all decided that Paul and Barnabas should go to Jerusalem to debate this issue with the apostles and elders there.

On their way there, they told everyone that they met how "outsiders", Gentiles, were being saved and Jewish christians all around were rejoicing. But when they got to Jerusalem, there was a group of Jewish christians who would NOT let it go that Gentiles must be circumcised to be saved. The bible says that there was much fighting over this legalistic issue.

Finally, Peter, who was in Jerusalem told everyone that God, Himself, had chosen for the Gentiles to hear the truth and be saved and that God, Himself, knows their hearts, and gave those saved Gentiles the Holy Spirit. He said that God saw no difference in a saved Jew nor a saved Gentile because it was the heart that needed purification, not the body.

He continued saying that why were those legalistic christians trying to tempt God (or to overrule Him) by adding unnecessary behaviors to one's salvation, when neither they, the Jews nor their forefathers could keep any of those rules themselves, in the first place!

The bible says that the arguing and fighting crowd became silent! Peter turned the floor over to Paul and Barnabas who explained what wondrous miracles God was doing in the lives of Gentiles.

Then Paul and Barnabas turned the floor over to James who was also there. James was so impressed by Peter's words that he repeated them to the crowd and then.....

......in true Baptist form.....he made a motion from the floor!!! :laugh: :laugh:

He said "I move that we don't bother these Gentiles with legalities that don't mean a thing to their salvation. I so move that we simply tell them to keep away from idolatry, sexually immorality, and keep away from strangled meat and blood products."

Everyone was happy with that and they went back to their own towns and sent lengthy letters to all the churches teaching that circumcision was not a required for salvation.....and that more importantly, abstaining from idolatry, sexually immorality, and blood products was going to be the rule of thumb.

They all got a renewed sense of excitement and began preaching mightily again.

Yet, at the end of chapter 15, Paul and Barnabas, themselves, had a big fight over whether or not to take John Mark with them on their preaching circuit and they parted ways with Paul taking Silas and Barnabas taking John Mark.

**********************************************

With all that paraphrase being said, to answer your question.....no, it is not require for christians to eat only kosher meat.

These requirements for clean living were simply a way for these Jewish christians who were still very deeply entrenched in Levitical law, to reconcile their acceptance of these Gentile christians.

Many, many of these Jewish christians still observed dietary laws of the OT even after being saved. Peter, himself, did until God explained that it was not necessary.

If those Jews wanted to ask the Gentiles to try and not partake of strangled meats or blood products and with them NOT attaching that stipulation to their salvation in any way, I see this simply as a very early "tradition of men" issue in the early church.

This admonishment is not for christians today and is was not a "law" for Gentile christians then. Neither Paul nor Barnabas nor Peter nor Silas went door-to-door investigating what these people ate.

It was just a suggestion, based on that's what many of the Jewish christians were still doing.

[xdisciplex]

Hi Scarlett,

does this mean that today christians could eat blood pudding or blood sausage if they wanted to? I once heard a preacher say that this is not allowed. But I'm also not keen on blood so it doesn't really affect me.
But what I also didn't understand while I read the book of acts was wether the jews which became christians have to keep laws which the gentile christians don't have to keep. Is there a difference between jewish christians and gentile christians? Do jewish christians have to obey all these old testament rules while the gentile christians don't have to do they both not have to worry about any old testament laws?

[Scarlett O.]

Hi Scarlett,

does this mean that today christians could eat blood pudding or blood sausage if they wanted to?

Why would they want to? :laugh: :laugh:

We have an awful form of that saugage here in Louisiana made with blood and other horrible things - it's called boudin (boo-dan). It's gross!

If they want to, sure. Remember that these early Jewish christians had hundreds of years of indoctrination with the law and with isolating themselves from Gentiles.

It wasn't easy coming together and learning to accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. Sometimes, the "old ways" would creep in.

The whole purpose of the law was to show you that you were not perfect enough to keep it, just like Peter told all of those Jewish christians. It was an impossible hurdle to jump over - trying to keep all of those laws.

Ultimately it turned people to God seeing how helpless they were to try and be "perfect".

But what I also didn't understand while I read the book of acts was wether the jews which became christians have to keep laws which the gentile christians don't have to keep.

No, they don't. It was very hard for some of them to wrap their mind around that fact.

Is there a difference between jewish christians and gentile christians?

No, there is no difference. Some Jewish christians still observe some cultural traditions such as some Sabbath rituals, but they do not do these things for salvation - just tradition. Just like some Gentile christians don't eat meat on Fridays, even though they recognize now that doesn't have anything to do with salvation - it's just a habit they still keep.

Do jewish christians have to obey all these old testament rules while the gentile christians don't have to do they both not have to worry about any old testament laws?

No christian, neither Jewish nor Gentile, since the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago has to "worry" about OT laws.

It's important that we all read them as part of our bible study.

Even though we aren't bound to them, there are many inspirational and educational things to learn. We see how God cared for his people even by teaching them things as basic as hygiene laws. We see pictures of Jesus and foreshadowings of Jesus in the ceremonial laws. And we get our basic concepts of morality from them.

There are not "laws" anymore, but they are still God's Word and He can still be found on the pages of the OT.

[billwald]

>He said "I move that we don't bother these Gentiles with legalities that don't mean a thing to their salvation. I so move that we simply tell them to keep away from idolatry, sexually immorality, and keep away from strangled meat and blood products."

This was the local interpretation of the Noahic Covenant and is still valid.

[DQuixote]

What Scarlett said. Bravo!:jesus:

[BobRyan]

I don't understand anything. Does this mean that christians have to care about all the hundred thousand jewish OT restrictions?

When you frame the Word of God as "Jewish" you imply one of three things.

1. God used to be a jew and as such had some pretty bad ideas. But "he got betta" in recent days.

2. God did not write the OT -- Jews did. It is not the Word of God - ignore it.

3. God wrote a list of bad-idea commands and saddled just-the-Jews with them to show us how much he loves us - not them.

But for those who believe "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God and IS STILL to be used for doctrine and instruction in righteousness" -- a different model would be needed - ENTIRELY. That is why James makes the point in Acts 15 that the Word of God was being heard each Sabbath in the synagogue JUST as we SEE Gentiles HEARING it Sabbath-after-Sabbath IN the synagogue in Acts 13!!

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Why would they want to? :laugh: :laugh:

We have an awful form of that saugage here in Louisiana made with blood and other horrible things - it's called boudin (boo-dan). It's gross!

...
The whole purpose of the law was to show you that you were not perfect enough to keep it, just like Peter told all of those Jewish christians. It was an impossible hurdle to jump over - trying to keep all of those laws.



If your argument is that eating that gross blood-based-food is so awful that Christians should not WANT to eat what God said was not to be eaten (as we find His statements in scripture) - then can we also conclude that God was "right about that"??

If Paul is arguing that the continued authority of the Law shows our sin and our need of forgiveness then once we are saved "with the Law of God now written on the tablets of the human heart" Heb 8 under the New Covenant - would we not want to joyfully concur with God's Law?

in Christ,

Bob

[DQuixote]

One thing about BobRyan. He is usually wrong.

He usually, not always, muddies the waters for babes in Christ and Christians who are not well grounded in the faith.

[Scarlett O.]

If your argument is that eating that gross blood-based-food is so awful that Christians should not WANT to eat what God said was not to be eaten (as we find His statements in scripture) - then can we also conclude that God was "right about that"??

Hi, Bob....

I won't challenge that point. I'll just add that I also find boiled cabbage extremely foul to the point that I don't know why a sane person would want to eat it and I know that God doesn't forbid that food item.

Same thing goes for dill pickles. :laugh:


If Paul is arguing that the continued authority of the Law shows our sin and our need of forgiveness then once we are saved "with the Law of God now written on the tablets of the human heart" Heb 8 under the New Covenant - would we not want to joyfully concur with God's Law?

Well, if we are going to eat only kosher food items, in joyful concurrence of the law, then we are also going to have to stone our sons to death when they are rebellious and burn our daughters alive when they are promiscuous. You will also have to slaughter animals in sacrifice for your sins.

Paul also said in Hebrews 8 that "In that he saith a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

Yes, God's law is printed in our minds and hearts. But, to me, all that means is that only the spiritual/moral principles of the law still apply - just read the Sermon on the Mount and you will see.

[Brother Bob]

Well, if we are going to eat only kosher food items, in joyful concurrence of the law, then we are also going to have to stone our sons to death when they are rebellious and burn our daughters alive when they are promiscuous. You will also have to slaughter animals in sacrifice for your sins.


I have given this some thought. (kidding) :)

[BobRyan]

Hi, Bob....

I won't challenge that point. I'll just add that I also find boiled cabbage extremely foul to the point that I don't know why a sane person would want to eat it and I know that God doesn't forbid that food item.

Same thing goes for dill pickles. :laugh:

Ok now we really don't see eye to eye Scarlett.

If we are talking creamed corned beef and cabbage -- ... hmmm.

If we are talking dill pickles with a tastey Reuben -- hmmm

(Actually I think you may have a point on the vinegar used for the pickles)

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Well, if we are going to eat only kosher food items, in joyful concurrence of the law, then we are also going to have to stone our sons to death when they are rebellious and burn our daughters alive when they are promiscuous.


However you are listing the civil laws for the nation - I am talking about the moral laws and the health laws.

The term "Kosher" is not found in the bible and implies a bit more than is found in the Levitical text.


You will also have to slaughter animals in sacrifice for your sins.

That is true. IF we did not have God telling us "Sacrifices ENDED at the death of Christ" in Heb 10 -- we certainly would have to continue those practices HE established.

My preference is to let God be the one to state when something ends.



Paul also said in Hebrews 8 that "In that he saith a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

If the OT is scripture then when Paul says in 2Tim 3 that ALL scripture IS STILL to be used for doctrine and instruction - we can not simply suppose that in Heb 8 "the OT is the OC". In fact Heb 8 is QUOTING the OT when it affirms the New Covenant since that is the SOURCE for the NC.



Yes, God's law is printed in our minds and hearts. But, to me, all that means is that only the spiritual/moral principles of the law still apply - just read the Sermon on the Mount and you will see.

The Sermon on the Mount is given precross at at time when by every measure the full law of God is still in place.

The Law of God written on the heart - means "scripture" the Word of God itself -- the Commands of God.

Civil laws apply to a theocracy - we don't have it anymore.

Ceremonial laws are based in the sacrifices that ended according to Heb 10.

The health and moral laws remain as we see in Isaiah 66 where God tells us that even at the end of the age -- God burns in fire those who eat mice and destible things.

In Christ,

Bob

[EdSutton]

I ain't into "meeces", as Snagglepuss or Jinx would say :eek: :laugh:, but I like kosher hot dogs and corned beef and cabbage. Steam it as opposed to boiling it, Scarlett_O, or put in a little sea salt or some definitely non-kosher 'country ham', and you might not hate cabbage so much! :laugh: :laugh:
The usual cook arround our home is-

Ed

[EdSutton]

Ok now we really don't see eye to eye Scarlett.

If we are talking creamed corned beef and cabbage -- ... hmmm.

If we are talking dill pickles with a tastey Reuben -- hmmm

(Actually I think you may have a point on the vinegar used for the pickles)

In Christ,

Bob C'mon, Bob! Ya' cream chipped beef, not corned beef, and serve it on biscuits or toast! :laugh:


Boile' corn beef and steamed cabbage? Hard to beat!

Same with the Reubens, which BTW, have some of that cabbage in them, in the form of sauerkraut. :thumbsup:

And kosher dills taste better than non- kosher dills, IMO. :applause:

Ed

[EdSutton]

>He said "I move that we don't bother these Gentiles with legalities that don't mean a thing to their salvation. I so move that we simply tell them to keep away from idolatry, sexually immorality, and keep away from strangled meat and blood products."

This was the local interpretation of the Noahic Covenant and is still valid. Interesting point, billwald. I'd never considered that before. I'll think about that, since the Noahinc covenant is in no way either affected or effected by the Abrahamic covenant or the Mosaic/Sinaitic covenant.

Definitely something to think about.

Ed

[Dustin]

I like boudin. It's a big thing down here in south Louisiana. It must not be wherever in this great state Scarlett is from, either that or she's picky.

Like the way I can't eat seafood. No fish, no crawfish, no shrimp, but I like a little gator meat, but technically that's not seafood.

I don't like seafood because of the simple fact that it makes me want to vomit, I'm not allergic to it or anything.

Forget the fish, eat a steak.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

[EdSutton]

Forget the fish, eat a steak.
I'm with you on this, as long as it's considered 'kosher' to say that. :thumbsup: :laugh: :wavey:

Ed

[Scarlett O.]

I like boudin. It's a big thing down here in south Louisiana. It must not be wherever in this great state Scarlett is from, either that or she's picky.

I'm from the Monroe area and there are people who make it and eat it, but not in abundance like in South La. I just can't bring myself to develop a taste for it. :(

Like the way I can't eat seafood. No fish, no crawfish, no shrimp, but I like a little gator meat, but technically that's not seafood.

No catfish?! No grilled shrimp or coconut shrimp?!

Help me.....I feel faint! :laugh:

[Dustin]

I'm from the Monroe area and there are people who make it and eat it, but not in abundance like in South La. I just can't bring myself to develop a taste for it. :(



No catfish?! No grilled shrimp or coconut shrimp?!

Help me.....I feel faint! :laugh:

No ma'am. The fishiest I get is tuna fish sandwhiches. But I consider tuna fish and chicken salad to be one in the same. They taste the same to me. I've eaten catfish before, but my taste buds have found it lacking.

Shrimp smells bad before it's cooked, while it's cooking, and after you throw whatever you don't eat away. I mean, they're almost like little bugs that live in the mud. Shrimp, crawfish, crabs, oysters, all of that makes me stomach turn. I would really have to be starving with nothing else to eat on a desert island before I ate any.

Thank God for beef.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

[BobRyan]

I ain't into "meeces", as Snagglepuss or Jinx would say :eek: :laugh:, but I like kosher hot dogs and corned beef and cabbage. Steam it as opposed to boiling it, Scarlett_O, or put in a little sea salt or some definitely non-kosher 'country ham', and you might not hate cabbage so much! :laugh: :laugh:
The usual cook arround our home is-

Ed

Now we are talking -- God seems to command that we go for the beef steak and corned beef fair rather than eating rats. He says we should choose Tuna and Salmon over eating "water filters". Water filters basically filter out much of the harmful deadly chemicals in the surrounding sea water and concentrate them in their own flesh 10x and 100x times that which is in the water itself. Then when people "eat those filters" they get the "full effect"!!

Our Creator God claims that eating the daintly little sea filters is not "a good thing". Should we believe Him?

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

C'mon, Bob! Ya' cream chipped beef, not corned beef, and serve it on biscuits or toast! :laugh:

Irish rules sir -- not english!

Boiled Corned Beef yes - but then you have to cover them in cream sauce sir!