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IfbReformer
03-08-2007, 10:58 AM
Recently the former Pastor of a Church we use to attend who is now on a mission board wrote an article dealing with this. He basic premise was that missions support was waining because conservative baptist churches were shrinking.

I believe there is a difference between conservative Baptist churches and "Old Fashion" Baptist churches.

First let me just say that I think both types of Baptist church believe and preach the Bible is the Word of God and believe in the fundamentals of the faith.

But the difference is really an addition or subraction, depending on your point of view.

"Old Fashion" Baptist Churches insist on using the same order of service they have for the last 50 or 100 years. The same Bible translation(obvisoulsy the KJV) and no change in how the do Sunday school or Wednesday night services. They have their Revial meetings at exactly the same time each year and refuse to change almost anything about their ministry.

Conservative progressive Baptist churches on the other hand, seem to what to change whatever they need to(without compromising the fundamentals of the faith) resulting in modern music, modern translations and different approaches to Sunday school and evangelism.

It is these Conservative progressive Baptist churches that I see seem to be growing while the "Old Fashion" Baptist Churches seem to be dying out.

Believe me, I have Pastor friends on both sides of the aisle on this. The friend of mine who are in "Old Fashion" Baptist Churches " seem to have trouble with church growth and any growth they get seems to be simply transfers in of existing believers from other "Old Fashion" Baptist churches.

While I think they will always be around, I think the age of larger "Old Fashion" Baptist churches is coming to a close.

What do you think?

IFBReformer

Joshua Rhodes
03-08-2007, 11:17 AM
I agree that they are thinning down. I predict that they will continue to dwindle, not because what they are preaching and teaching is incorrect, but that it isn't relevant to a society that changes gears every few moments. Churches that evaluate things like VBS, Sunday School, and other institutions of the church are not change for change's sake, but are evaluating whether or not those things still reach people the way they used to. "Fixing" something to work is not always a bad thing. Not always.

preachinjesus
03-08-2007, 12:00 PM
I believe there is a difference between conservative Baptist churches and "Old Fashion" Baptist churches.

I agree completely. The church where I get to serve is a conservative Baptist church in doctrine and belief...but exceedingly progressive in methodology and practice. "Old Fashioned" Baptist churches to me says something about their methodology (three points and a poem, piano and organ only, hymnal, tons of faultering programming, etc.) where they are stuck in the past and aren't vibrant, growing fellowships. They have been come private country clubhouses instead of open public communities.

"Old Fashion" Baptist Churches insist on using the same order of service they have for the last 50 or 100 years. The same Bible translation(obvisoulsy the KJV) and no change in how the do Sunday school or Wednesday night services. They have their Revial meetings at exactly the same time each year and refuse to change almost anything about their ministry.

That right there explains why they refuse to grow. Inspite of what God would have them do, they selfishly hold onto ridiculous practices that negate the movement of the Spirit in their midst.

Conservative progressive Baptist churches on the other hand, seem to what to change whatever they need to(without compromising the fundamentals of the faith) resulting in modern music, modern translations and different approaches to Sunday school and evangelism.

Change, methodological, helps create momentum and adapting to current needs shows that you care where people are at in their lives. Most of these churches also have compotent systems in place to welcome, assimilate, train, and plug-in new members into their ministris. It's huge.

It is these Conservative progressive Baptist churches that I see seem to be growing while the "Old Fashion" Baptist Churches seem to be dying out.

yep. The dying out is probably the best term to use particularly because there isn't a younger, recently regenerate membership available.

While I think they will always be around, I think the age of larger "Old Fashion" Baptist churches is coming to a close.

Old Fashioned died out ten years ago...just takes a while to catch up with reality. :)

Honestly I don't care what you do, old or new or middle or whatever, just do it with excellence. Most old fashioned churches that I've known (including the one I grew up in) don't accomplish excellence in their churches and thus will not capture people.

pinoybaptist
03-08-2007, 12:15 PM
Well, I don't know about that.

But, the church I used to go to in Columbia, Maryland has been around for nearly three hundred years, preaching the same Doctrine of Grace, singing the same songs, holding services on basically the same day, observing the same "order" of worship (singing, praying, preaching, singing), have not introduced musical instruments, or Sunday School, and seems to me like they'll be around for another hundred years.

Now, membership wise, true, the church has been like an accordion.

But I don't think Old Fashioned Baptist churches per se, are on the way out.

A particular local old fashioned Baptist church may die out, but the churches as a whole will still be around.

IfbReformer
03-08-2007, 01:23 PM
Well, I don't know about that.

But, the church I used to go to in Columbia, Maryland has been around for nearly three hundred years, preaching the same Doctrine of Grace, singing the same songs, holding services on basically the same day, observing the same "order" of worship (singing, praying, preaching, singing), have not introduced musical instruments, or Sunday School, and seems to me like they'll be around for another hundred years.

Now, membership wise, true, the church has been like an accordion.

But I don't think Old Fashioned Baptist churches per se, are on the way out.

A particular local old fashioned Baptist church may die out, but the churches as a whole will still be around.

pinoybaptist,

I agree they will probably never die out. But they certainly will not have the growth that progressive conservative Baptist churches have.

I have friends back home in Michigan who attend Primitive Baptist churches and know just the sort of church you describe. I have not known of any large size Primitive Baptist churches though. It seems to go against their setup anyway.

I was not really talking about Primitive Baptist churches though, I am more refering to the Sunday School at 9:45, Sunday Service at 11:00, Sunday night, Wednesday night, same hymns, same methodology they have had for the last 50 to 100 years.

I agree by Primitive Baptist standards these churches would still be progressive.

IFBReformer

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 01:33 PM
The only thing that I can find in scripture that reaches people is the Word of God and the Holy Ghost. Add anything else to that and the message gets waterd down.

rbell
03-08-2007, 01:47 PM
The only thing that I can find in scripture that reaches people is the Word of God and the Holy Ghost. Add anything else to that and the message gets waterd down.

I would wholeheartedly agree that the above mentioned are the two absolutely essential ingredients.

I might have some trouble on what constitutes "adding anything else." We used a very powerful video from Facing the Giants a few months ago to illustrate wholehearted commitment. IMO that doesn't "water down" the Gospel; rather, it becomes an object lesson to illustrate it.

God seems to be a fan of object lessons. Look how he used them with the prophets. As long as we don't worship the method, and the method does not detract from God's glory or message, have at it, IMO.

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 01:58 PM
"Old Fashion" Baptist Churches insist on using the same order of service they have for the last 50 or 100 years. The same Bible translation(obvisoulsy the KJV) and no change in how the do Sunday school or Wednesday night services. They have their Revial meetings at exactly the same time each year and refuse to change almost anything about their ministry.

That right there explains why they refuse to grow. Inspite of what God would have them do, they selfishly hold onto ridiculous practices that negate the movement of the Spirit in their midst. I have become one of those "old fashioned Baptists". Could you describe for me specifically which practice I adhere to that is "ridiculous"?


Is the old AV ridiculous?
Is having Sunday school ridiculous?
Are Wednesday night services ridiculous?
Is the timing of revival meetings ridiculous?


What changes would you require so that we were not engaged in ridiculous practices?

Further, I believe that my brethren and I hold to these practices not out of selfishness but because we believe this is what God would have us do and that we are more God-centered than selfish. What makes you think you understand our motivation as being selfish whereas your motivation to change abounds in selflessness?

pinoybaptist
03-08-2007, 02:13 PM
The Dictionary defines progressive as:

1.favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters: a progressive mayor. 2.making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.


And Conservative as:


1.disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2.cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3.traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.



Now, how on earth could there be a Conservative Progressive church ? I don't care which way you cut it, but one has to weigh more than the other, or eventually one gives way to the other.

Either you're Old Fashioned, or you're Progressive.

Least ways that's how I look at it.

If there is a decline in church membership today it is because the days are evil, and the love of many has waxed cold.

If there is a tremendous growth in church membership among the liberals and the "progressives" could it be because they ceased to rely on the Holy Spirit and instead rely more on methodology and systems, charisma and modernism ?

I'm not saying that's it, but could it be ?

IfbReformer
03-08-2007, 02:22 PM
I would wholeheartedly agree that the above mentioned are the two absolutely essential ingredients.

I might have some trouble on what constitutes "adding anything else." We used a very powerful video from Facing the Giants a few months ago to illustrate wholehearted commitment. IMO that doesn't "water down" the Gospel; rather, it becomes an object lesson to illustrate it.

God seems to be a fan of object lessons. Look how he used them with the prophets. As long as we don't worship the method, and the method does not detract from God's glory or message, have at it, IMO.

Amen brother! Who was the greatest object lesson teacher of all - Christ himself.

IFBReformer

Salty
03-08-2007, 02:23 PM
[quote=Rufus_1611]I have become one of those "old fashioned Baptists". Could you describe for me specifically which practice I adhere to that is "ridiculous"?


Is having Sunday school ridiculous?
Are Wednesday night services ridiculous?

quote]Let me answer two of your examples

Many churches have SS at 945 am then church at 11 am

Suppose someone recommended to have SS AFTER morning worship. Many churches are doing this and finding they have more people stay for SS

Wed Night service. Lets say, in your town, Wed is a big community night. For example, the First Wed of the month is the School PTA, the Second Wed is the Town Council, the Third Wed is the Youth sports leagues meeting.

Would it be wrong to change Prayer meeting to Thursday night, if several of your church members are involved in these activities?
Would it be wrong to have SS after morning worship to have more involvement.


I think this is what IBC Reformer has in mind.
I would never consider compromising the fundamental message of the Lord. But Prayer meeting on Wed Night is NOT a fundamental doctrine of the Bible ( in any version)

Salty

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 02:31 PM
I would wholeheartedly agree that the above mentioned are the two absolutely essential ingredients.

I might have some trouble on what constitutes "adding anything else." We used a very powerful video from Facing the Giants a few months ago to illustrate wholehearted commitment. IMO that doesn't "water down" the Gospel; rather, it becomes an object lesson to illustrate it.

God seems to be a fan of object lessons. Look how he used them with the prophets. As long as we don't worship the method, and the method does not detract from God's glory or message, have at it, IMO. How many prophets or disciples went to the theater to understand those object lessons?

pastor_brad
03-08-2007, 02:35 PM
I am a pastor who recently planted a new "Old Fashioned" Baptist Church. While there is nothing sacred about keeping the same schedule and the same hymnal, I see no need to throw out tradition simply for the sake of being "progressive." Tradition is not a bad thing especially if the tradition is based on Scriptural principle.

My burden is for the preaching of God's Word to be the focus of our services. Though we live in a much different time than the believers of the 1800's, the truth of Scripture remains the same. His truth is what will change lives.

Not only am I a Old Fashioned Baptist pastor(age 27), but I am also a web developer. I mention this to explain that I see nothing wrong with changing our methods to fit the culture we live in, but our standard can never change. I will utilize whatever I can to be most effective in my service for Christ, but I must not compromise truth for the sake of relevancy.

For example: There is nothing wrong with using newly composed music in our churches, but it must meet certain Biblical standards of 'good music.' I cannot take the world's music, change a few lyrics and hope to please Christ.

Anyways, back to the topic; In my personal experince of planting an 'Old Fashioned' church three and a half years ago, there is a great need for and interest in our church. People are looking for a church where the people humbly live separated holy lives and are not ashamed to be recognized as Christians. They want to sing the old hymns, and hear the directly applied preaching of the Word of God(There can be nothing more relevant).

While we have had several families 'transfer' from other Baptist Churches, there have been just as many newly saved young(mid 20's) families added to the church and discipled. They are excited about our church, and I am excited to be a small part of what the Lord is doing.

IfbReformer
03-08-2007, 02:36 PM
The Dictionary defines progressive as:

1.favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters: a progressive mayor. 2.making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.


And Conservative as:


1.disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2.cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.
3.traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.



Now, how on earth could there be a Conservative Progressive church ? I don't care which way you cut it, but one has to weigh more than the other, or eventually one gives way to the other.

Either you're Old Fashioned, or you're Progressive.

Least ways that's how I look at it.

If there is a decline in church membership today it is because the days are evil, and the love of many has waxed cold.

If there is a tremendous growth in church membership among the liberals and the "progressives" could it be because they ceased to rely on the Holy Spirit and instead rely more on methodology and systems, charisma and modernism ?

I'm not saying that's it, but could it be ?

First let me answer your most important question:
"Now, how on earth could there be a Conservative Progressive church ?"

Thats easy when we understand what conservative and progressive refer to. Conservative refers to Doctrine and practice on those things which the Bible is very specfic on. The same Gospel is preached and the same Baptism is administered the same way as it was 50 years ago. The progressivness has to do with methodology. How do we reach others with the Gospel, how do we disciple.

We may use the Yellow Pages and Internet today to let people know where our church is and when our services are. We may show Christian movies or play Christian contempory music to illustrate Godly principles. But we are still conervative in doctrine, but progressive in methodology.

And really "Old Fashion" is a relative term. What is considered old fashion today was considered brand new 50 or 100 years ago. When Wednesday night services and Sunday school were introduced in the 1800's they were considered new.

When regular scheduled Revival meetings were first introduced in 1800s they were also considered new. When the altar call was first introduced it was considered new.

When the King James Version was first introduced, it was considered new and many opted the previous version of the Geneva Bible.

The point is that all these things that "Old Fashioned" Baptist churches are doing, was at some point fairly recently(in the last 100 to 400 years) considered new.

I agree the church should always proceed with caution, but yet it cannot be afraid of something just because it is new. In the same token, I and those like me who favor a progressive approach in methodology do not want to throw out all the old items, we simply want to introduce new ways of doing things that do not violate the Scriptures.

I love singing the old hymns and believe a church should have a blending of modern and traditional Christian music. One connects us to our past, the other points toward the future.

IFBReformer

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 02:38 PM
[quote=Rufus_1611]I have become one of those "old fashioned Baptists". Could you describe for me specifically which practice I adhere to that is "ridiculous"?


Is having Sunday school ridiculous?
Are Wednesday night services ridiculous?

quote]Let me answer two of your examples

Many churches have SS at 945 am then church at 11 am

Suppose someone recommended to have SS AFTER morning worship. Many churches are doing this and finding they have more people stay for SS

Wed Night service. Lets say, in your town, Wed is a big community night. For example, the First Wed of the month is the School PTA, the Second Wed is the Town Council, the Third Wed is the Youth sports leagues meeting.

Would it be wrong to change Prayer meeting to Thursday night, if several of your church members are involved in these activities?
Would it be wrong to have SS after morning worship to have more involvement.


I think this is what IBC Reformer has in mind.
I would never consider compromising the fundamental message of the Lord. But Prayer meeting on Wed Night is NOT a fundamental doctrine of the Bible ( in any version)

Salty I do not believe that it would be wrong to change the Wednesday fellowship or the timing of Sunday School. If the congregation believes it to be beneficial and it doesn't cause strife then I don't see a Biblical argument against it. However, I would question the priorities of people scheduling church around their life rather than scheduling their life around church.

rbell
03-08-2007, 02:49 PM
How many prophets or disciples went to the theater to understand those object lessons?

The same number that used electric lighting and indoor plumbing. :rolleyes:

preachinjesus
03-08-2007, 02:56 PM
Is the old AV ridiculous?

I don't believe God inspired the KJV more than any other version. To suggest otherwise negates the nature of the text. I do believe God wholly inspired and inspired men and women to write the original texts in Hebrew, Aramiac, and Greek and in those original languages we find our extant texts for translation. The KJV is a great text for its day, but no one uses that language anymore. I can't remember the last time I heard someone using the KJV in their services or messages. More current versions are better equipped to communicate God's words to the masses in our contemporary verbiage imho.

Is having Sunday school ridiculous?

No, as long as it is full of open classes that are willing to grow and divide into new groups and aren't small, clustered groups representing the holy huddle.

Are Wednesday night services ridiculous?

We don't do them b/c we aren't in an area that allows us to have easy flow of traffic in and out. If your program methodology is that you have Wednesday night service have them. Just don't say that everyone must have Wednesday night services.

Is the timing of revival meetings ridiculous?

The only thing about these is that all of the "revival" meetings that I've been to, led, attended, etc. aren't true revivals but just a group of spiritual emphasis meetings where the fellowship is encouraged greatly. Good stuff, I think we need to figure out where they fit into our strategy for growth and impact and use them (and term them) appropriately.

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 02:57 PM
The same number that used electric lighting and indoor plumbing. Do you get object lessons from those devices as well? :rolleyes:

IfbReformer
03-08-2007, 02:59 PM
How many prophets or disciples went to the theater to understand those object lessons?

Apparently Christ did not have a problem comparing himself and John the Baptist to street performers.


Luke 7
31"To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:
" 'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.' 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."


The absense of an example does not forbid that type of example being used.

Just because we don't see an ancient play being used as an object lesson in the scriptures does not mean it is forbiden to be used.

Yet I will grant you that the early church fathers(not the Apostles) were very hard on the acting community in general. They forced all new converts to Christianity to give up their careers if they were an actor or musician. The held celebicy in the highest regard and even had married couples take vows of celebicy. However this behavior like many of the early church behaviors was not supported by the Scriptures.

IFBReformer

rbell
03-08-2007, 02:59 PM
Do you get object lessons from those devices as well? :rolleyes:

I can think of two or three GREAT object lessons from indoor plumbing.

But they'd probably get edited.

Now...since you've cast a judgemental eye...tell me from scripture: What was wrong with my using a clip from Facing the Giants to illustrate a scriptural point?

EdSutton
03-08-2007, 03:07 PM
I don't believe God inspired the King Jimmy version more than any other version. To suggest otherwise negates the nature of the text. I do believe God wholly inspired and inspired men and women to write the original texts in Hebrew, Aramiac, and Greek and in those original languages we find our extant texts for translation. The King Jimmy is a great text for its day, but no one uses that language anymore. I can't remember the last time I heard someone using the King Jimmy version in their services or messages. More current versions are better equipped to communicate God's words to the masses.



No, as long as it is full of open classes that are willing to grow and divide into new groups and aren't small, clustered groups representing the holy huddle.



We don't do them b/c we aren't in an area that allows us to have easy flow of traffic in and out. If your program methodology is that you have Wednesday night service have them. Just don't say that everyone must have Wednesday night services.



The only thing about these is that all of the "revival" meetings that I've been to, led, attended, etc. aren't true revivals but just a group of spiritual emphasis meetings where the fellowship is encouraged greatly. Good stuff, I think we need to figure out where they fit into our strategy for growth and impact and use them (and term them) appropriately. Just to point out, the description of the KJV as the "King Jimmy" version violates one of the BB rules. So would calling the New Living Translation, say, the "New Lying" or "New Dying Translation" violate the same rule.

http://www.baptistboard.com/postingrules.html

And while the following rule may be specific to one forum of the BB, I'd say the spirit is not, IMO.

9. Certain terms are off limits in this forum.
For example:
</font>
The KJVO crowd will not not refer to the Modern Versions as "perversions," "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc.</font>
The MV crowd will not refer to the KJVOs as "cults," "heretics," "sacrilegious," etc...nor refer to the KJV in derisive terms such as "King Jimmy's Bible," "Pickled Preserved Version," etc.</font> If I am wrong, I am willing to be corrected by any Moderator, Administrator, or the Webmaster.

Ed

dan e.
03-08-2007, 03:12 PM
[QUOTE=SALTCITYBAPTIST] I do not believe that it would be wrong to change the Wednesday fellowship or the timing of Sunday School. If the congregation believes it to be beneficial and it doesn't cause strife then I don't see a Biblical argument against it. However, I would question the priorities of people scheduling church around their life rather than scheduling their life around church.


The problem lies with the "showin' up" attitude. You can't "show up" differently than you have before. You can't recite different "quartlies" than you have before. You can "sit n' worship" differently than you have before, because then you're not "doin' church". As if this were comparable to the early NT. ha!

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 03:12 PM
I can think of two or three GREAT object lessons from indoor plumbing.

But they'd probably get edited.

Now...since you've cast a judgemental eye...tell me from scripture: What was wrong with my using a clip from Facing the Giants to illustrate a scriptural point?

I don't see precedence for it in scripture and that just because Christ taught via object lessons that equates to let's watch a movie or let's turn on the television. When Jesus Christ was giving object lessons he used words and is thus why I think we should use words. Perhaps this is an example of the difference between being a progressive and being a conservative/old-fashioned.

rbell
03-08-2007, 03:15 PM
Jeremiah and Isaiah used more than words. Were they wrong?

rbell
03-08-2007, 03:17 PM
interesting...so using a Christian film, with a Christian message, to illustrate a Christian point to a bunch of Christians...

...is wrong.

Wow.

dan e.
03-08-2007, 03:18 PM
God had Jeremiah use his belt, he had him watch a potter.....GASP!

If a person who holds to "we must only use words" to teach should not set foot in any kind of educational position, religious or secular. It shows lack of ability to teach, and lack of desire to......reach! (sorry for the cheesy rhyme).

preachinjesus
03-08-2007, 03:20 PM
Just to point out, the description of the KJV as the "King Jimmy" version violates one of the BB rules. So would calling the New Living Translation, say, the "New Lying" or "New Dying Translation" violate the same rule.

well I call that in normal conversation because the other way is silly. But just to be in line with the guidelines (probably should read them one of these days) I've changed my above post to reflect some modicum of conformity.

Anyhoo, on to more important matters.

dan e.
03-08-2007, 03:28 PM
By the way, my church doesn't have Sunday school.......you can all now get up off the floor.....I imagine many would feel that this is a near heretical decision to make. But this is part of the point made, churches that refuse to design and format to best reach their particular culture/subculture will not fair well in reaching those who need Jesus. Many would respond with "well we like it, so we will keep it because we've always done so". Well, because the majority of those who have sat in the church for 20 + years like it doesn't mean it is what should be done. But, maybe it is.

EdSutton
03-08-2007, 03:31 PM
I don't believe God inspired the King Jimmy version more than any other version. To suggest otherwise negates the nature of the text. I do believe God wholly inspired and inspired men and women to write the original texts in Hebrew, Aramiac, and Greek and in those original languages we find our extant texts for translation. The King Jimmy is a great text for its day, but no one uses that language anymore. I can't remember the last time I heard someone using the King Jimmy version in their services or messages. More current versions are better equipped to communicate God's words to the masses.



No, as long as it is full of open classes that are willing to grow and divide into new groups and aren't small, clustered groups representing the holy huddle.



We don't do them b/c we aren't in an area that allows us to have easy flow of traffic in and out. If your program methodology is that you have Wednesday night service have them. Just don't say that everyone must have Wednesday night services.



The only thing about these is that all of the "revival" meetings that I've been to, led, attended, etc. aren't true revivals but just a group of spiritual emphasis meetings where the fellowship is encouraged greatly. Good stuff, I think we need to figure out where they fit into our strategy for growth and impact and use them (and term them) appropriately. The church I attend, grew up in, and have been a member of most of my Christian life, save when I lived elsewhere, has also been around for a few years - starting our 225th year. We haven't had a lot of revivals, recently, mostly because we've been too busy growing, mission trips, evangelism, etc., and have had little time for them. We are on our second building program in the last few years, 'cause we need the space, as our membership has been jumping to its largest in our history, since we started "doing" missions rather than just sponsoring them. And we are a fairly small country church, with a membership of some 650, and a roll that has not been searched in recent years, but attendance has gone from the 150-160 mark some eight years ago to hitting around 300+ consistently. (We've had some services over 400.), and growing, and showing no signs of slowing anytime soon. The music is a varied blend, at least in specials, and the preacher taught from the KJV last evening.

Let's not confuse 'tradition' with 'precept' as another noted. I personally love this quote from a noted non- Baptist.
Tradition apart from the Word of God is error grown cold! - the late Dr. S. Lewis Johnson I agree.

Ed

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 03:38 PM
interesting...so using a Christian film, with a Christian message, to illustrate a Christian point to a bunch of Christians...

...is wrong.

Wow.

I haven't watched the film so I can't speak intelligently about it. I've read through the soundtrack lyrics in the past and couldn't find Jesus Christ mentioned once which is not uncommon with today's contemporary Christian music. I've been in protestant churches that have promoted movies such as the "The Passion of the Christ" and they had me convinced that it was a Christian movie until God saved me from my Catholic lite worldview. This same megachurch based many sermons on popular theater like Braveheart and Monty Python and television shows such as Seinfeld and Everybody Loves Raymond. In my worldview, hypocrites do not belong in church whether it is recorded or live. If it worked for you then praise God. I'm not so interested in judging you as I am in demonstrating the difference between progressive churches and conservative churches and why I believe "Old-Fashioned" churches are the way to go and I am not in favor of the new paths. If "Old-Fashioned" churches are shrinking it is only because they are not entertaining enough for the masses and I do not believe churches should be about amusing people.

EdSutton
03-08-2007, 03:42 PM
well I call that in normal conversation because the other way is silly. But just to be in line with the guidelines (probably should read them one of these days) I've changed my above post to reflect some modicum of conformity.

Anyhoo, on to more important matters.Would it be "silly" if I had not abbreviated "King James Version"? Or used "Authorized Version"? That is what the version is known by, in the flyleaf and/or often on the cover, as well.

FTR, I do not use the King James Version, preferring another.

Ed

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 03:42 PM
I would wholeheartedly agree that the above mentioned are the two absolutely essential ingredients.

I might have some trouble on what constitutes "adding anything else." We used a very powerful video from Facing the Giants a few months ago to illustrate wholehearted commitment. IMO that doesn't "water down" the Gospel; rather, it becomes an object lesson to illustrate it.

God seems to be a fan of object lessons. Look how he used them with the prophets. As long as we don't worship the method, and the method does not detract from God's glory or message, have at it, IMO.


What consititutes adding anything else is to say that unless you do this or do that people will not believe. In other words unles you use progresive methods gen x will not believe. Or unless you use this method or that method people will not have the ability to believe.

The preaching of the Word of God is what reaches people and nothing else. Romans 10:9-17

dan e.
03-08-2007, 03:45 PM
I haven't watched the film so I can't speak intelligently about it. I've read through the soundtrack lyrics in the past and couldn't find Jesus Christ mentioned once which is not uncommon with today's contemporary Christian music. I've been in protestant churches that have promoted movies such as the "The Passion of the Christ" and they had me convinced that it was a Christian movie until God saved me from my Catholic lite worldview. This same megachurch based many sermons on popular theater like Braveheart and Monty Python and television shows such as Seinfeld and Everybody Loves Raymond. In my worldview, hypocrites do not belong in church whether it is recorded or live. If it worked for you then praise God. I'm not so interested in judging you as I am in demonstrating the difference between progressive churches and conservative churches and why I believe "Old-Fashioned" churches are the way to go and I am not in favor of the new paths. If "Old-Fashioned" churches are shrinking it is only because they are not entertaining enough for the masses and I do not believe churches should be about amusing people.


You've missed it. While you have a point about entertaining, you are lumping all creative ministry into entertainment. Praise God Jesus didn't have the attitude of keeping things "Old Fashioned".

preachinjesus
03-08-2007, 03:47 PM
(I) couldn't find Jesus Christ mentioned once which is not uncommon with today's contemporary Christian music.

lol...hehe...I once was in the studio with a guy who recorded a hidden track on his CD that just kept saying "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" in a melodic way with a tune on his guitar for the purpose of satisfying the "Jesuses Per Minute" requirement of some people in his church. Just thought about that. It was great.

[quoteThis same megachurch based many sermons on popular theater like Braveheart and Monty Python and television shows such as Seinfeld and Everybody Loves Raymond.[/quote]

we do that, well not Monty Python but British humor isn't funny, in moderation b/c there are some terrific principles to use as illustrations into the text.

Don't forget that Paul used a secular poem in Acts 17:28 from Aratus, a third century BC Greek poet, to draw a spiritual principle to explain the Gospel.

Life change happens at the intersection of the Gospel and conviction...sometimes we can get people there faster through common cultural metaphors.

EdSutton
03-08-2007, 03:47 PM
The only thing about these is that all of the "revival" meetings that I've been to, led, attended, etc. aren't true revivals but just a group of spiritual emphasis meetings where the fellowship is encouraged greatly. Good stuff, I think we need to figure out where they fit into our strategy for growth and impact and use them (and term them) appropriately. On this about 'revival', we agree. I recall one of my SS teachers once saying "We are going to have a week of 'meetings'. Whether or not we are going to have 'revival', remains to be seen." BTW, at that time, we did not have much of any any revival, IMO.

Ed

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 03:47 PM
well I call that in normal conversation because the other way is silly. But just to be in line with the guidelines (probably should read them one of these days) I've changed my above post to reflect some modicum of conformity.

Anyhoo, on to more important matters.

Calling it a KJV is silly, whereas calling it King Jimmy is dignified? :confused:

dan e.
03-08-2007, 03:50 PM
What consititutes adding anything else is to say that unless you do this or do that people will not believe. In other words unles you use progresive methods gen x will not believe. Or unless you use this method or that method people will not have the ability to believe.

The preaching of the Word of God is what reaches people and nothing else. Romans 10:9-17

Tell that to the woman at the well, or to the adultress, or to anyone else Jesus came in contact with and loved. I would say that Jesus did a lot more than "preach the word of God". At least, today's warped definition of "preach the word of God". Read the parable of the sower. If you do nothing to prepare the soil, all you are doing is "preaching the word of God", but you are scattering it on lifeless dirt.

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 03:51 PM
You've missed it. While you have a point about entertaining, you are lumping all creative ministry into entertainment. Praise God Jesus didn't have the attitude of keeping things "Old Fashioned".
What power does "creative ministry" have, that the Word of God does not?

preachinjesus
03-08-2007, 03:51 PM
Maybe the biggest thing we should look at is how many people are you baptizing in your church in a year? How many people are going on mission for God in their communities and abroad?

Show me an "Old Fashioned" church that is baptizing dozens and sending hundred on mission and I'll shake their hand...hug their neck...and praise God for their witness.

Life change is the key. How are you changing lives in your community? Methodology isn't the devil in the details...it is a means to an end.

tinytim
03-08-2007, 03:55 PM
I haven't watched the film so I can't speak intelligently about it. I've read through the soundtrack lyrics in the past and couldn't find Jesus Christ mentioned once which is not uncommon with today's contemporary Christian music.
Well here is the lyrics to the main song in the movie...
It doesn't take a genius to figure out the spirituality of the song...

Maybe that is the difference between the "old fashioned" and modern..
The old fashioned has to be spoon fed, and are unable to think for themselves.... If they would think for themselves, they would not be stuck in a century old rut that is killing churches.
If they would think for themselves they would see that what they have been doing is killing their church instead of building it up.
If they would think for themselves, they could come up with effective ways to reach out and become relevant to the masses, so that people will come to Christ and not go to Hell.

But sadly, some are so stuck in their rut, that if Jesus was to actually visit their churches, no one would move over and give him their seat!

I thank God I serve in a progressive, conservative church... he he hee.
We are conservative with the message, but use up to date methods that are reaching people and souls are being saved.

conservative with message
progressive with methods


From Casting Crowns.:


Oh what I would do to have
The kind of faith it takes
To climb out of this boat I'm in
Onto the crashing waves

To step out of my comfort zone
Into the realm of the unknown where Jesus is
And He's holding out His hand

But the waves are calling out my name
And they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times
I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
Time and time again. "Boy, you'll never win!"
"You'll never win!"

Chorus:
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
The voice of truth says, "Do not be afraid!"
The voice of truth says, "This is for My glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth

Oh what I would do to have
The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant
With just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors
Shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand

But the giant's calling out my name
And he laughs at me
Reminding me of all the times
I've tried before and failed
The giant keeps on telling me
Time and time again. "Boy you'll never win!"
"You'll never win!"

But the stone was just the right size
To put the giant on the ground
And the waves they don't seem so high
From on top of them lookin' down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
Singing over me

I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth

tinytim
03-08-2007, 03:58 PM
Maybe the biggest thing we should look at is how many people are you baptizing in your church in a year? How many people are going on mission for God in their communities and abroad?

Show me an "Old Fashioned" church that is baptizing dozens and sending hundred on mission and I'll shake their hand...hug their neck...and praise God for their witness.

Life change is the key. How are you changing lives in your community? Methodology isn't the devil in the details...it is a means to an end.

That's the point... there are very few, if any, that are doing what you describe. And then they turn around and say that the reason they are not growing is because they are not compromising... hogwash.

They are not growing because they refuse to move from their comfort zones of age old traditions.

dan e.
03-08-2007, 03:58 PM
What power does "creative ministry" have, that the Word of God does not?


Stop proving to me that you are missing the point and GET THE POINT!

pastor_brad
03-08-2007, 04:01 PM
Maybe the biggest thing we should look at is how many people are you baptizing in your church in a year? How many people are going on mission for God in their communities and abroad?


As stated before, I pastor newly planted "old fashioned" church. We are seeing people saved and baptized on a regular basis, but your logic of "look at the numbers" is not what I am concerned with. We need to be careful about using pragmatic approaches to ministry. By doing whatever works to get a crowd, we loose the purpose of our churches.

Of course I want to see our church grow in number. I am seeing that, but more importantly, I want to see those that are here grow more into the image of Christ. Choosing methods solely on the basis of their ability to draw large numbers is a dangerous ministry model.

Joshua Rhodes
03-08-2007, 04:02 PM
I don't see precedence for it in scripture and that just because Christ taught via object lessons that equates to let's watch a movie or let's turn on the television. When Jesus Christ was giving object lessons he used words and is thus why I think we should use words. Perhaps this is an example of the difference between being a progressive and being a conservative/old-fashioned.

Are felt-boards ok? What about drama? Music? Visual art of any kind?

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 04:02 PM
Well here is the lyrics to the main song in the movie...
It doesn't take a genius to figure out the spirituality of the song...

Maybe that is the difference between the "old fashioned" and modern..
The old fashioned has to be spoon fed, and are unable to think for themselves.... If they would think for themselves, they would not be stuck in a century old rut that is killing churches.
If they would think for themselves they would see that what they have been doing is killing their church instead of building it up.
If they would think for themselves, they could come up with effective ways to reach out and become relevant to the masses, so that people will come to Christ and not go to Hell.

But sadly, some are so stuck in their rut, that if Jesus was to actually visit their churches, no one would move over and give him their seat!

I thank God I serve in a progressive, conservative church... he he hee.
We are conservative with the message, but use up to date methods that are reaching people and souls are being saved.

conservative with message
progressive with methods I guess we can add "don't think for ourselves","church killers", and "folks who make Jesus stand" to "ridiculous".

Joshua Rhodes
03-08-2007, 04:07 PM
Rufus, no one is saying that. Well... at least I'm not.

I was raised in what I would consider an "Old-fashioned" baptist church. And I thank God for it. But I also see the need to fashion worship and methods to the culture that surrounds us, leaving the message completely intact.

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 04:14 PM
Are felt-boards ok? What about drama? Music? Visual art of any kind?

On drama...show me where Jesus Christ played the role of an actor or commisioned his disciples to reach people by acting.

On music...music is called for in scripture for the edification and worship of God but is not described as a tool for reaching the lost.

Visual art...I believe any representation of the Godhead through art is explicitly forbidden. As to other artwork much of the religious artwork that is in play today was comissioned by the Roman Catholic Church and much of it contains embeds that are quite wicked. For me, I would prefer to leave the graven images to the Pope and those who desire to follow him.

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 04:19 PM
Rufus, no one is saying that. Well... at least I'm not.

I was raised in what I would consider an "Old-fashioned" baptist church. And I thank God for it. But I also see the need to fashion worship and methods to the culture that surrounds us, leaving the message completely intact. Is the message completely intact? Was there not a difference in your "Old-Fashioned" Baptist church versus the progressive one? The central message may be the same but there must be a difference between the two and thus, there must be a change in the message no?

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 04:24 PM
Rufus, no one is saying that. Well... at least I'm not.

I was raised in what I would consider an "Old-fashioned" baptist church. And I thank God for it. But I also see the need to fashion worship and methods to the culture that surrounds us, leaving the message completely intact.

One more thing...and this is not focused on Joshua necessarily...have ya'll considered that maybe part of the reason "Old-Fashioned Baptist Churches" are shrinking is because ya'll are leaving them behind for new ways of doing church? When you say that "Old-Fashioned Baptist Churches" are not culturally relevant does this not mean they aren't relevant to you?

dan e.
03-08-2007, 04:25 PM
On drama...show me where Jesus Christ played the role of an actor or commisioned his disciples to reach people by acting.

On music...music is called for in scripture for the edification and worship of God but is not described as a tool for reaching the lost.

Visual art...I believe any representation of the Godhead through art is explicitly forbidden. As to other artwork much of the religious artwork that is in play today was comissioned by the Roman Catholic Church and much of it contains embeds that are quite wicked. For me, I would prefer to leave the graven images to the Pope and those who desire to follow him.


That is horrible logic and Bible interpretation to decide if something is unbiblical.


Show me where music is condemned? Show me where drama is inherently evil? Show me where Jesus used a pulpit? Show me where Jesus used a publisher? show me where Jesus did most of the stuff that church's do! Does that make them all unbiblical!!!! Please don't be teaching this stuff!!!

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 04:27 PM
"cultures" within the culture of the United States are not equivilent to moving into a culture in another country. It isnt necessary to cater to gen x or postmodernism. A gen xer can understand the message preached in an old fashion church. They may not like the music but they understand it. Just because someone claims being offended at a lack of "cultural" understanding doesnt mean it is true. In many cases it is rebellion. They just want the gospel message delivered their way. The rich ruler tried that. Jesus didnt cowar down to it.

A gen xer or post modern can get saved under an old fashioned gospel message being preached the same as anyone else. Conforming to subcultures are unnecessary.

pastor_brad
03-08-2007, 04:28 PM
I beleive the thing that makes our church "Old Fashioned" is our literal application of Biblical principles to our daily lives and our ministry. I use new methods, and illustrations to help make Bible truth clear to my listeners.

If you can believe it, I even have stopped recording sermons on tape and now use a computer to record mp3 audio! :laugh:

The real difference is our application of Scripture to the methods we choose. There is nothing wrong with using a whiteboard, or projector. I have used both from time to time, but there is something wrong with incorporating worldly elements of our culture into our services.

We may reach more people, but what are we reaching them to?

dan e.
03-08-2007, 04:31 PM
"cultures" within the culture of the United States are not equivilent to moving into a culture in another country. It isnt necessary to cater to gen x or postmodernism. A gen xer can understand the message preached in an old fashion church. They may not like the music but they understand it. Just because someone claims being offended at a lack of "cultural" understanding doesnt mean it is true. In many cases it is rebellion. They just want the gospel message delivered their way. The rich ruler tried that. Jesus didnt cowar down to it.

A gen xer or post modern can get saved under an old fashioned gospel message being preached the same as anyone else. Conforming to subcultures are unnecessary.


just stop.....please just stop. :BangHead: sit in your little church and refuse to tend to the hard and rocky soil. thats a cheap way to love people. that is, to insist they should "understand" your style. PLEASE don't mention Jesus as having that attitude.

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 04:37 PM
just stop.....please just stop. :BangHead: sit in your little church and refuse to tend to the hard and rocky soil. thats a cheap way to love people. that is, to insist they should "understand" your style. PLEASE don't mention Jesus as having that attitude.



What you fail to understand is that it isnt about anybodies style. Christ said he will build the church. Not you, me or anyones style. Styles do not lead people to the Lord. that idea comes from human sentiment not the Bible. We cannot find it in ourselves to come to God. And we cannot find it in ourselves to convince anyone to come to God. Subcultures are irrelevent.

pastor_brad
03-08-2007, 04:38 PM
just stop.....please just stop. :BangHead: sit in your little church and refuse to tend to the hard and rocky soil. thats a cheap way to love people. that is, to insist they should "understand" your style. PLEASE don't mention Jesus as having that attitude.

Just because a church draws a crowd doesn't make its methods right. It think it would do us all good to not just be 'seeker sensitive.' We need to be more 'Savior Sensitive.' What pleases Christ must come before what pleases the unsaved world. If every element of my service is designed to make unsaved men feel at home, then I have grave problems, and am missing the purpose of the local church.

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 04:40 PM
The worship service should not be about subcultures. worship services should be scriptually based without any consideration of subcultures. Please God and not man.

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 04:42 PM
That is horrible logic and Bible interpretation to decide if something is unbiblical.I did not use this term.

Show me where music is condemned? I did not condemn music. On the contrary, I love music and there are many verses that promote it.

Show me where drama is inherently evil?
I did not state drama is inherently evil but ya'll are asking me to prove why it's wrong, I'm asking you to prove why it's right? Where is the model and scripture that encourages you to go on stage and pretend to be someone you are not?

Show me where Jesus used a pulpit? I can't do that but I wonder whether or not Jesus needed a Bible and notes when he preached and a place to put them.

Show me where Jesus used a publisher? See England around 1611, with varied examples prior and after.

show me where Jesus did most of the stuff that church's do! Does that make them all unbiblical!!!! Please don't be teaching this stuff!!! You seem to be getting a bit excited, are you gonna be alright?

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 04:52 PM
just stop.....please just stop. :BangHead: sit in your little church and refuse to tend to the hard and rocky soil. thats a cheap way to love people. that is, to insist they should "understand" your style. PLEASE don't mention Jesus as having that attitude.

Is that really what the EC, genx, and postmodern ministries are about? Tending to rocky soil? Is everyone who gets involved in in these ministries rocky soil? would that include you? Or are you beyond that type of ministriy because you are much softer soil?

Joshua Rhodes
03-08-2007, 04:56 PM
On drama...show me where Jesus Christ played the role of an actor or commisioned his disciples to reach people by acting.

I'm not Jesus Christ, Rufus. Where is it said in Scripture that "thou shalt not" use acting or drama?

On music...music is called for in scripture for the edification and worship of God but is not described as a tool for reaching the lost.

But if it accomplishes the first two things, why not the other as well?

Visual art...I believe any representation of the Godhead through art is explicitly forbidden. As to other artwork much of the religious artwork that is in play today was comissioned by the Roman Catholic Church and much of it contains embeds that are quite wicked. For me, I would prefer to leave the graven images to the Pope and those who desire to follow him.

You're entitled to that opinion, and I haven't tried to squelch it. Merely understand it.

Is the message completely intact? Was there not a difference in your "Old-Fashioned" Baptist church versus the progressive one? The central message may be the same but there must be a difference between the two and thus, there must be a change in the message no?

Yes. The message hasn't changed. The differences between the church I grew up in and this one are "methodical" and not "message" differences. The music is maybe a little different. The bulletin and the message format maybe different week to week. The invitation may be given a little differently. The screens with the pastor's notes are definitely different. But these are cosmetic things, and not things that affect the message itself. It is and has been Christ, and Him crucified.

One more thing... have ya'll considered that maybe part of the reason "Old-Fashioned Baptist Churches" are shrinking is because ya'll are leaving them behind for new ways of doing church? When you say that "Old-Fashioned Baptist Churches" are not culturally relevant does this not mean they aren't relevant to you?

The church has changed, not "me going in search of a modern church." It has nothing to do with what I like or don't like, or what's relelvant to me. It has to do with the people around us that we're reaching out to. Have you ever wondered why Cowboy Churches are springing up everywhere? Because they reach out to an almost untapped people group. If that's what it takes, then set up a mechanical bull in the foyer of my church! (I'm just kidding... you can't see me laughing!)

pastor_brad
03-08-2007, 04:58 PM
Is that really what the EC, genx, and postmodern ministries are about? Tending to rocky soil? Is everyone who gets involved in in these ministries rocky soil? would that include you? Or are you beyond that type of ministriy because you are much softer soil?

Tending to rocky soil invloves picking out the rocks and pulling a sharp plow through the soil if there is ever any hope of seed being planted. The truth remains that we do not reach sinners by making them feel comfortable, but by exposing their sin to the pure light of the Scriptures.

Joshua Rhodes
03-08-2007, 04:59 PM
Just because a church draws a crowd doesn't make its methods right. It think it would do us all good to not just be 'seeker sensitive.' We need to be more 'Savior Sensitive.' What pleases Christ must come before what pleases the unsaved world. If every element of my service is designed to make unsaved men feel at home, then I have grave problems, and am missing the purpose of the local church.


I'll agree with this. Can you not see that we aren't talking either-or here? They are so many places on the spectrum...

Also, it's not ALL about comfort, but if a lost person comes to your church, do they see a Christ who can save them, or a bunch of people who are so afraid to look at them they'd rather stay away? When was the last time a stereotypically "wrong" person came to your church? What was the reaction?

dan e.
03-08-2007, 05:02 PM
You seem to be getting a bit excited, are you gonna be alright?




wheew....I'll be okay. Thanks for your concern...no, really....thanks.:thumbs:

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 05:03 PM
Tending to rocky soil invloves picking out the rocks and pulling a sharp plow through the soil if there is ever any hope of seed being planted. The truth remains that we do not reach sinners by making them feel comfortable, but by exposing their sin to the pure light of the Scriptures.



Amen and Amen.

I dont have any issue with methods except when they are looked at as needed. In other words to place on methods the idea that people cannot be reached without them. Methods are not necesary but that doesnt make them automatically wrong.

dan e.
03-08-2007, 05:11 PM
is not just "preaching the word of God" a method? Is that not a method that God has chosen. God also used some of human's methods to interact.....like when He crossed between the the birds cut in half to make a vow, or how about when he spoke to Moses....isn't that a method, speaking? How about Jesus walking on water, then challenging the faith of his disciple to do the same....isn't that a method He used (quite an object lesson). Aren't all forms of evangelizing methods? Isn't building a relationship with someone lost a method? Isn't standing in a pulpit a method? The point is....which methods work. Which are most appropriate. It is not, 1)preach the word or 2) use a method. It is all methods!!!!

Rufus_1611
03-08-2007, 05:20 PM
I'm not Jesus Christ, Rufus. That makes two of us.

Where is it said in Scripture that "thou shalt not" use acting or drama? I would say in all of the locations where the Bible says we should not lie or bare false witness or be a hypocrite.

But if it accomplishes the first two things, why not the other as well? Scripture declares that it is the foolishness of preaching that saves them that believe, not the foolishness of rock and roll or hymns.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." - 1 Corinthians 1:21

You're entitled to that opinion, and I haven't tried to squelch it. Merely understand it. It's an Acts 17:29 thing.

Yes. The message hasn't changed. The differences between the church I grew up in and this one are "methodical" and not "message" differences. The music is maybe a little different. The bulletin and the message format maybe different week to week. The invitation may be given a little differently. The screens with the pastor's notes are definitely different. But these are cosmetic things, and not things that affect the message itself. It is and has been Christ, and Him crucified. The methods are contained in the message. There is an order and instruction for the way we are to worship and preach to the lost. There is a message about the method we are to set-up church. When we change the method we are changing the message.

The church has changed, not "me going in search of a modern church." It has nothing to do with what I like or don't like, or what's relelvant to me. It has to do with the people around us that we're reaching out to. Have you ever wondered why Cowboy Churches are springing up everywhere? Because they reach out to an almost untapped people group. If that's what it takes, then set up a mechanical bull in the foyer of my church! (I'm just kidding... you can't see me laughing!) I know your joking but that's the way it seems to some of us old-fashioned types. If putting a mechanical bull in the foyer brought in more warm bodies, it would not surprise me if there was a church somewhere that would consider it.

We go out to reach the lost, we come home to church for edification, sanctification, exhortation etc. The draw to go to church should be obedience to not forsake the assembly, to worship an Almighty God, a desire to hear the Word of God preached, a desire to praise God by raising our voices in beautiful melody, a desire to fellowship amongst saints etc. If the draw is an arena, cutting club, gymnasium, rocking band, coffee bar, big screens, movies, swim parties, ATMs and like-minded activities, then it would seem to me, that these are misplaced self-focused priorities.

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 05:22 PM
Is not just "preaching the word of God" a method?

And God was very clear on that method. That is the one method no one can do without. Everything else is not required. Using subculture to determine what goes on in the worship service is not scriptual. Trying to apply how Jesus interated with people outside of the worship service to insist that is how it should be done in the worship service is a misapplication. To insist we can only reach people through subcultures is a failure to see just who it is that does the reaching.

dan e.
03-08-2007, 05:34 PM
And God was very clear on that method. That is the one method no one can do without. Everything else is not required. Using subculture to determine what goes on in the worship service is not scriptual. Trying to apply how Jesus interated with people outside of the worship service to insist that is how it should be done in the worship service is a misapplication. To insist we can only reach people through subcultures is a failure to see just who it is that does the reaching.


God never condemned other methods. By the way, when you say preaching....do you mean standing in front of a crowd and speaking an outlined message?? Just curious.


I never said anything about the requirement of using subcultures....whatever you mean by that. However, a refusal to look and understand the culture you are in so that you may effectively reach that culture is foolish.....and unbiblical. GASP!


I think you are in error to think that "worship services" then are the same now. Using Jesus' teaching methods is EXACTLY how we should be using them in our "worship services", or Sunday schools, or small groups.


I'm done. Its silly going back and forth.

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-08-2007, 05:39 PM
God never condemned other methods. By the way, when you say preaching....do you mean standing in front of a crowd and speaking an outlined message?? Just curious.


I never said anything about the requirement of using subcultures....whatever you mean by that. However, a refusal to look and understand the culture you are in so that you may effectively reach that culture is foolish.....and unbiblical. GASP!


I think you are in error to think that "worship services" then are the same now. Using Jesus' teaching methods is EXACTLY how we should be using them in our "worship services", or Sunday schools, or small groups.


I'm done. Its silly going back and forth.


God Bless!

EdSutton
03-08-2007, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Show me where Jesus used a pulpit?
I can't do that but I wonder whether or not Jesus needed a Bible and notes when he preached and a place to put them.
Uh, His lap? As I read Scripture I find He usually sat down to teach and preach. So how come today we sit down, and the preacher stands??

Just stirrin' the pot a bit! 8:-)

http://mentaljokes.com/images/witch.gif
For Halloween!

Ed

rbell
03-08-2007, 06:39 PM
What power does "creative ministry" have, that the Word of God does not?

If our "creative ministry" is not proclaiming the Word or its truths, we don't use it. Each element of our worship points to God, glorifies Him, and enumerates a scriptural truth.


In response to 'where in scripture does it say "thou shalt not act?" ......I would say in all of the locations where the Bible says we should not lie or bare false witness or be a hypocrite.

That's a mis-application of Scripture. You are taking a figure of speech and interpreting it in a literal sense. The Bible does not lump "lie, bear false witness, or be a hypocrite" together. Acting (drama) and hypocrisy are not synonymous.

I think we all would be in agreement that the Word is central to any worship.

But let's also keep in mind...what we consider "old fashioned," relatively speaking, isn't. Does that mean it's wrong? Absolutely not. But there are many, many elements of an "old-fashioned" worship service that might be absent from, let's say, a 2nd-century worship service.

Our church doesn't utilize an "either-or" approach when it comes to worship. We do many, many differing things, all evaluated for their scriptural basis/emphasis and honoring of God. Our "old-fashioned" learn to appreciate new ways to worship, and our "newfangled" folk learn the rich meaning and theology from the "old fashioned" stuff.

And at our church, God is honored, and believe it or not, we all are getting along just fine.

rbell
03-08-2007, 06:54 PM
"cultures" within the culture of the United States are not equivilent to moving into a culture in another country. It isnt necessary to cater to gen x or postmodernism. A gen xer can understand the message preached in an old fashion church. They may not like the music but they understand it. Just because someone claims being offended at a lack of "cultural" understanding doesnt mean it is true. In many cases it is rebellion. They just want the gospel message delivered their way. The rich ruler tried that. Jesus didnt cowar down to it.

A gen xer or post modern can get saved under an old fashioned gospel message being preached the same as anyone else. Conforming to subcultures are unnecessary.

OK, let me go at it this way...

Think of all the slogans you can for Coca-Cola.


"Coke Adds Life"
"I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing..."
"Have a Coke and a Smile"
"Enjoy Coke"
"The Real Thing"and so on...

Now: with the exception of the failed "new Coke" in 1984, all of the above slogans pitched the same product. Only the slogans were changed to reach a new market...the "recipe" hadn't changed for any of these ad lines.

If we change the "recipe" handed to us in the Word, we've messed up...kinda like "new Coke!" :laugh: But I don't mind using a different "slogan" to help folks see the "product."

IMPORTANT: I'm not reducing the Gospel to a product to be pitched. Jesus is so much more important than a carbonated beverage...I'm just trying to use an analogy that my brain (and hopefully other ones) can wrap around.

2 Timothy...we do agree that God can save if there's simply a preacher and a hearer. And we don't have worship services where I'm at without the Word being preached. But we try and communicate The truth in many other ways as well. But yes, the preaching of the Word is paramount.

tinytim
03-08-2007, 07:22 PM
How is this for old fashioned worship...
I wonder how many here are willing to do church the way they did less than a 100 yrs after Christ?

What some are calling old fashioned is really nostalgia from the 50s!
If you really want to be old fashioned, do it the right way...like Justin Marytr! If not, then you must be progressive also.

I posted the following, but you should read the whole article... very enlightening...
Here is also proof that Christians were worshiping on Sunday shortly after Christ. Pooof goes the proof of the SDAs! (which is another thread)

Chapter LXVII.-Weekly Worship of the Christians.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things.
And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.
And on the day called Sunday, (th tou Hliou legomenh hmera.) all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place,
and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits;
then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
Never did faithful people SERMONIZE or further expound (private interpretation) the Inspired Word of God. Rather, preaching was simply making sure that everyone understood that which was read and exhorted to keep. To Timothy the EVANGELIST:
Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.1Ti.4:13
Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended,

http://www.piney.com/MuJustMar.html

preachinjesus
03-08-2007, 07:37 PM
So the whole thing with Paul using a secular poem in Acts 17:28 is moot is guess.

Strange since it is fairly applicable to our current conversation.

convicted1
03-09-2007, 03:40 AM
Here where I live in Eastern West Virginia, some of the "Old School" churches are shrinking, while others flourish. I don't know why, either. There are the Old Regular Baptist churches, which I attend, that seem to do quite well. Others, like "Old" United Baptists( They are just like the ORBs in practice, doctrine, and line-singing) seem to dwindle. I don't have the answer, either. One could be that more of the UB's had coal miners, and as the coal mines shut down- I know of at least four that have-this caused them to move where the work was/is at.

But I think the one major reason why I think that the older churches seem to dwindle is because they just don't go out and do things that they consider as "worldly". A lot of the freewill and UB's- that are just like the FW's in practice, doctrine, and singing- do things that the older churches would not find acceptable. The older churches don't believe in make-up, wearing shorts-male or female- cutting their hair, some of the women don't even wear pants. Now I am not saying that wearing make-up, cutting your hair, or wearing pants will condemn you to hell, but that is the way they were brought up. However, I did watch a documentry one time about Egypt, and they talked about lip-stick being used by the Egyptian harlots using it to resemble "something" when doing "something". I won't go into details, because it's too racy, but y'all know what I am talking about. So lipstick was apparently created to do ADULTEROUS(sp?) acts.

The newer/progressive churches tend to be a little too liberal for me. I believe that when someone becomes a christian, they need to act, as well as, look like a christian. I have witnessed some of the christians in the newer churches wearing real short, shorts. I think both sexes should wear modest clothing. But I am not going to judge them. I have no right to. Some of the things people do who attend the newer churches, going to concerts, listening to rock and roll, wouldn't be accepted in the older churches.

This is why I think that some of the churches do shrink in numbers. Please do not think I am judging anyone, I am just telling you an opinion. I will not judge anyone. I will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ and give an account of myself.....and that's a handfull in-and-of-itself!!

I know that I haven't given any scripture, but as I said earlier, it only an opinion as to why they may be shrinking. Thanks. May God bless us all!!

convicted1
03-09-2007, 03:53 AM
I just thought of one more reason why they may be shrinking. Some of the "Old" United Baptist churches, as well as some, not all, ORBs seem to be shrinking is because they don't want to accept people who are what they call, Double-married. To be double-married, one has to be married to TWO people at the same time. They want to preach on Matthew chapter 19 too much. The ORB churches who do this, don't have very many members. But the ones who take these people in seem to flourish. If someone was married 100 times before they were saved, after salvation, I believe God only see one marriage. People want to try to group sinners with the church when they talk about the bible. The carnal minded is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The OT was written to the Jew-God's chosen people. The NT was written to God's chosen people, the christians. The bible does not take affect on an individual until they are saved. Romans chapter 7 tells us that being married to the Spirit, is different than being married in nature. The ones who don't/won't take people in this condition, have a small number of members. But most of the ORBs take anyone in who gives a good confession. They won't go behind your conversion and judge you. These are the ones who do the best. Well, I guess I shall shut up now and try to go to bed. Take care and may God bless us all!!

ituttut
03-09-2007, 04:58 AM
Don't agree with everything you say (sure it works the other way too) Rufus_1611, but I believe you got 'em on the run. His Word says to me, and evidently you, we use foolish tools, our tongues and writings, to reach those "called". It is by the foolishness of preaching that saves those that believe.

Trying to come up with "Props, Seminars or Programs smacking of motivational pitches, can be hurtful. When we go forth preaching and teaching His Word, it has the Power, and what we on our own come up with only makes His Word palatable to the lost, and pabulum to the church members.

We should be careful what we put forth in using such materials that places heavy emphases on anything that alludes only to God's chosen people, such as 400 years, 40 years - 40 days, or twelve. God has reserved the use of these numbers (except for general use outside of His Word) only from the beginning, and His chosen people, just as the number 144,000 is set-aside for them. Overuse of these will have a tendency to believe we "may" think we are them. In the eyes of God, today, there is no Israel for they are just as we Gentiles.

Scripture tells us Paul is chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentile, as well as the Jew, and was just to preach God's gospel of grace, not with wisdom of words, but the Cross of Jesus. When we take our eyes off of the Cross, what are we doing? We have cut-off the light. Mans solution? "Oh that's OK". "Lights - camera - action". Hey I'll bet people would pay money to hear us sing and play. His Word isn't working, so we'll "strut our stuff" (Thank you Jesus) and show what we can do.

pinoybaptist
03-09-2007, 06:37 AM
What I'm really reading in all these posts is: NUMBERS.

Numbers define the vitality of your church.

Numbers define whether a church is God's church.

Numbers define the effectivity of the preaching.

Heck, God is never big in numbers.

He had only twelve apostles, his first organized church had only 120 people, Paul made only three missionary journeys, there never was a mention of a big sized New Testament church in the Acts, and yet today half the world claims Jesus Christ as their Savior, the other half froths at His Name, kings and kingdoms have come and gone, the devil had tried to suppress His written word, yet His church survives, and those who would have numbers as their measuring stick would usually have compromised some principle to the world.

I Am Blessed 24
03-09-2007, 07:27 AM
yep. The dying out is probably the best term to use particularly because there isn't a younger, recently regenerate membership available.

My church is an "Old Fashioned" church - according to your definition.

We are growing by leaps and bounds. Way over half of the church membership is younger families with several children each. They are taking over when the older members relinquish their duties.

We have a thriving outreach program (and always have) and also a Christian school. And we have our revivals when the Holy Spirit wants us to - we don't schedule one without Him.

We're not a mega church, by any means, but we give more to missions than a lot of the larger churches.

Be careful when stereotyping...

EdSutton
03-09-2007, 08:14 AM
pb - "What I'm really reading in all these posts is: NUMBERS.

Numbers define the vitality of your church."

Not necessarily "define", but can and do give some evidence of impact, I'd say.

pb - "Numbers define whether a church is God's church."

Not at all. One of the largest growing organizations in the world is the "Church of Latter Day Saints" as the Mormons are known. I'd not call them God's church.

pb - "Numbers define the effectivity of the preaching."

Somewhat, probably, but the "effectivity" may be either 'bad' or 'good', as I've said in the two above sentences. The bigoted, onery, and out of fellowship, Jonah preached a sermon from a street corner of a total of eight words and a huge city repented. I'd say that message was 'effective'. Peter preached one sermon where 3000 souls and another where 5000 were "added to the Lord". I'd say those messages were "effective".

pb - "Heck, God is never big in numbers."

He had only twelve apostles, his first organized church had only 120 people, Paul made only three missionary journeys, there never was a mention of a big sized New Testament church in the Acts, and yet today half the world claims Jesus Christ as their Savior, the other half froths at His Name, kings and kingdoms have come and gone, the devil had tried to suppress His written word, yet His church survives, and those who would have numbers as their measuring stick would usually have compromised some principle to the world."

Overstated, IMO, with some half-truths, here. The Jerusalem Church may not have reached the numbers of "Saddleback" or "Willow Creek", early on, but 8000 converts in two sermons, and added to the church daily "such as were beig saved" does not seem to be a 'stagnant' congregation, IMO. And to assume that all larger churches are somehow 'compromizers' seems to be pretty judgmental, as well. We can still be a church at Ephesus- 'doctrinally correct' but still having "left our first love".

Ed

rbell
03-09-2007, 08:48 AM
Don't agree with everything you say (sure it works the other way too) Rufus_1611, but I believe you got 'em on the run. His Word says to me, and evidently you, we use foolish tools, our tongues and writings, to reach those "called". It is by the foolishness of preaching that saves those that believe.

We should be careful what we put forth in using such materials that places heavy emphases on anything that alludes only to God's chosen people, such as 400 years, 40 years - 40 days, or twelve. God has reserved the use of these numbers (except for general use outside of His Word) only from the beginning, and His chosen people, just as the number 144,000 is set-aside for them. Overuse of these will have a tendency to believe we "may" think we are them. In the eyes of God, today, there is no Israel for they are just as we Gentiles.

Scripture tells us Paul is chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentile, as well as the Jew, and was just to preach God's gospel of grace, not with wisdom of words, but the Cross of Jesus. When we take our eyes off of the Cross, what are we doing? We have cut-off the light. Mans solution? "Oh that's OK". "Lights - camera - action".

I don't think anyone here is arguing otherwise.

Trying to come up with "Props, Seminars or Programs smacking of motivational pitches, can be hurtful.

Who's arguing for that? I mentioned "object lessons"--using something from everyday life to illustrate a God-breathed, Scriptural point. Jeremiah did it. Isaiah did it. Is it wrong for us to do it? Besides, I've been quite clear that the preaching of the Word is central.

What we on our own come up with only makes His Word palatable to the lost, and pabulum to the church members.

I'm not sure I get this. In any worship service, there is creativity. When we sing a hymn...didn't someone "come up with" that? When we illustrate a point in a sermon...isn't that human creativity? God uses us, as creative beings, to proclaim His truth. Now...if His truth is absent, then Houston indeed has a problem. But creativity does not water down the Gospel unless it replaces it. When I used the "Facing the Giants" clip, it was to illustrate a truth from the Word...not something to go in place of said truth.

Hey I'll bet people would pay money to hear us sing and play. His Word isn't working, so we'll "strut our stuff" (Thank you Jesus) and show what we can do.

Once again...you're refuting a point no one has made here.

***

I'm reminded of the story in Mark 9:

38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

The disciples had a problem with how someone else honored God. Jesus set them striaght...as long as they lifted Him up, the disciples were not to stop those who did His work, even if they weren't "one of us."

Joshua Rhodes
03-09-2007, 09:07 AM
What I'm really reading in all these posts is: NUMBERS.

Numbers define the vitality of your church.

Numbers define whether a church is God's church.

Numbers define the effectivity of the preaching.

Heck, God is never big in numbers.

He had only twelve apostles, his first organized church had only 120 people, Paul made only three missionary journeys, there never was a mention of a big sized New Testament church in the Acts, and yet today half the world claims Jesus Christ as their Savior, the other half froths at His Name, kings and kingdoms have come and gone, the devil had tried to suppress His written word, yet His church survives, and those who would have numbers as their measuring stick would usually have compromised some principle to the world.

Some of these posts, maybe, but not ALL. As I've said before, some of the most incredible churches I've ever been in were peopled by 20-50 people on Sunday morning, but they loved WHOEVER came through their door. In fact, I've heard that some incredible percentage (like 80%) of Baptist churches are under 250 people in attendance. It may not be the small church that gets the attention, but most often, that's where God will choose to work. IF they'll reach outside the walls of their church and be relevant to the people who are lost.

Rufus_1611
03-09-2007, 10:58 AM
If our "creative ministry" is not proclaiming the Word or its truths, we don't use it. Each element of our worship points to God, glorifies Him, and enumerates a scriptural truth. I don't have cause to doubt this as I am confident you to be a laborer in the Lord. I do not desire to criticize you or your church personally but rather to make a case for why I believe "old-fashioned" churchin is better than the "new-fashioned".


That's a mis-application of Scripture. You are taking a figure of speech and interpreting it in a literal sense. The Bible does not lump "lie, bear false witness, or be a hypocrite" together. Acting (drama) and hypocrisy are not synonymous. Hypocrisy is synonymous with acting...

Webster's 1828

Hypocrisy - 1. Simulation; a feigning to be what one is not...

Online Etymology Dictionary

hypocrisy
c.1225, from O.Fr. ypocrisie, from L.L. hypocrisis, from Gk. hypokrisis "acting on the stage, pretense," from hypokrinesthai "play a part, pretend," also "answer," from hypo- "under" + middle voice of krinein "to sift, decide" (see crisis). The sense evolution is from "separate gradually" to "answer" to "answer a fellow actor on stage" to "play a part." Thus hypocrite (c.1225) is ult. Gk. hypokrites "actor on the stage, pretender."

I think we all would be in agreement that the Word is central to any worship. Yes we would, though we would disagree on which Word.

But let's also keep in mind...what we consider "old fashioned," relatively speaking, isn't. Does that mean it's wrong? Absolutely not. But there are many, many elements of an "old-fashioned" worship service that might be absent from, let's say, a 2nd-century worship service. True, the word is relative. If you are in favor of modeling after 2nd-century worship, let's do it. Far better to model after the 2nd century than the 21st.

Our church doesn't utilize an "either-or" approach when it comes to worship. We do many, many differing things, all evaluated for their scriptural basis/emphasis and honoring of God. Our "old-fashioned" learn to appreciate new ways to worship, and our "newfangled" folk learn the rich meaning and theology from the "old fashioned" stuff.

And at our church, God is honored, and believe it or not, we all are getting along just fine.I believe it. Lord's blessings upon your local assembly.

Rufus_1611
03-09-2007, 11:06 AM
Some of these posts, maybe, but not ALL. As I've said before, some of the most incredible churches I've ever been in were peopled by 20-50 people on Sunday morning, but they loved WHOEVER came through their door. In fact, I've heard that some incredible percentage (like 80%) of Baptist churches are under 250 people in attendance. It may not be the small church that gets the attention, but most often, that's where God will choose to work. IF they'll reach outside the walls of their church and be relevant to the people who are lost. Well said...totally agree.

rbell
03-09-2007, 12:05 PM
Lord's blessings upon your local assembly.

And to yours as well :thumbs:

rbell
03-09-2007, 12:07 PM
Waaaiiiit a minute....

What are we doing? Agreeing? Finding common ground????

C'mon people, get your "business meeting faces" on! :laugh:

preachinjesus
03-09-2007, 12:18 PM
Our churches are commanded by Christ to grow.

I've served in churches from 20 to 6,000 on the weekend and several in between. All kinds have been great communities. Again, so long as your assembly is bringing people into the Kingdom, baptizing, equipping and sending them out than we are accomplishing that command.

Our churches aren't supposed to be holy huddles. That is a command from Christ we should be going and getting and sitting and soaking.

Show me in Scripture where we should sit around and not care about lost around us. Show me where we must so inward focused that we forget about those who we run into daily that need Christ.

We all need the growth complex to push us to great things for Christ.

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-09-2007, 12:40 PM
So many folks and especialy in the Emerging Church movement have gotten such an outward focus that true worship has been set aside for evangelsitic reasons. Gathering together to sing, pray, be taught and lead by the God ordained Pastor is necessary, commanded and essential.

Much of what goes on today under the guise of worship is really self worship because we want to do it our way. Focusing on worship inside the walls of the church on Sunday morning is biblical and should be driven by scripture not what appeals to lost people.

Numbers are not evidence of either a living church or a dead church. Both living and dead churches have small and large numbers. A living church focuses on worship of God. Period.

Evangelism has become the excuse for self indulgent, godless, rebellious, irreverent, form of worship. There are those who want to focus on some teachings and examples of Christ like his love, healing, reaching out to sinners but ignore his hard teachings like hell, sin, redemption, the cross, His shed blood, and submission. They suggest that the gospel isnt being watered down in their self indulgent practices but very seldom call anyone to repentance or recognition of sin.

Churches wether "old fashioned" or progressive can be and are as dead as the dry bones in Ezekial 37. But the death has not occured because of style, or methods as is claimed by the EC. They are dead because they are lost. A church filled with true saints of God cannot die. And new methods are not necessary to reach people. Methods are ok so long as they do not water down the gospel and are not seen as a necessary agent of salvation. In other words not seen as "if we do not have them we cannot reach people with the gospel". That is a lie from hell.

ituttut
03-09-2007, 06:21 PM
How is this for old fashioned worship... (snipped)
Good reference tinytim.

Some of the "so called fathers had much of it right", but Sunday observance began long before Justin Marytr, as did worship that was to be uncomplicated with focus on preaching of the Cross. Proof of the Christian faith, belief and worship must be done before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A. D. I believe it imperative we go back to the beginning to verify, making determination of validity of what we believe.

It is not I hold the "so called father's" views in disrepute, but are we one whit behind, when we believe Paul's gospel? It looks as if Justin Marytr is on the same page as was the churches after Pentecost. We don't need man to mold and make our belief for us, if we allow the Holy Spirit to do so. Scripture tells us iniquity had already begun its work during the time of the Apostles. Iniquity continues its work, and so must we continue in His Word", whether some of the fathers did, or did not go back to the words of Jesus of earth, and of heaven.

I don't know who interjected in your post the following:
"Never did faithful people SERMONIZE or further expound (private interpretation) the Inspired Word of God. Rather, preaching was simply making sure that everyone understood that which was read and exhorted to keep. To Timothy the EVANGELIST Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.1Ti.4:13
Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended,"

Paul is not telling us in I Timothy one man is to rule over all other men. Paul today is not here, nor Peter or any Apostles of Jesus Christ to lay hand's on any man to establish or carry on a succession of their Apostleship. All this does is tell us how the Catholic Church came into being. If we take this as written, then all but ONE BAPTIST PREACHER has no business being in the business he is in. Or we had better start listening to the POPE as all his people do. My friend somebody is wrong and I don’t believe it is you and I. We are in the Body Church and are free believing on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation.

Paul had authority to show how a local church is to be set up, but nowhere does he ever demand a male member to keep their mouth shut in church. He says be followers of me by permission of Christ Jesus. His understanding and authority came from Christ Jesus in heaven, and is the reason we are to listen to, understand, and spread to the world the gospel Christ gave to him. Bless all those missionaries whole truly suffer for the cause of Christ, along with we each will not allow any man or church tp shut us up. We are after all Ambassadors for Christ.

When we go to church we are to sit and listen hopefully to hear HIS WORD as presented by Paul. We may not agree with Paul, or the Preacher for whatever reason, but we are to sit, listen, not being disorderly. The Epistles to Timothy and Titus show us the Order a church is to be set-up under, and in Corinthians we are told "all things be done decently and in order".

ituttut
03-09-2007, 06:32 PM
What I'm really reading in all these posts is: NUMBERS.

Numbers define the vitality of your church.

Numbers define whether a church is God's church.

Numbers define the effectivity of the preaching.

Heck, God is never big in numbers.

He had only twelve apostles, his first organized church had only 120 people, Paul made only three missionary journeys, there never was a mention of a big sized New Testament church in the Acts, and yet today half the world claims Jesus Christ as their Savior, the other half froths at His Name, kings and kingdoms have come and gone, the devil had tried to suppress His written word, yet His church survives, and those who would have numbers as their measuring stick would usually have compromised some principle to the world.Love the way you express truth

ituttut
03-09-2007, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by ituttut
Don't agree with everything you say (sure it works the other way too) Rufus_1611, but I believe you got 'em on the run. His Word says to me, and evidently you, we use foolish tools, our tongues and writings, to reach those "called". It is by the foolishness of preaching that saves those that believe.

We should be careful what we put forth in using such materials that places heavy emphases on anything that alludes only to God's chosen people, such as 400 years, 40 years - 40 days, or twelve. God has reserved the use of these numbers (except for general use outside of His Word) only from the beginning, and His chosen people, just as the number 144,000 is set-aside for them. Overuse of these will have a tendency to believe we "may" think we are them. In the eyes of God, today, there is no Israel for they are just as we Gentiles.

Scripture tells us Paul is chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentile, as well as the Jew, and was just to preach God's gospel of grace, not with wisdom of words, but the Cross of Jesus. When we take our eyes off of the Cross, what are we doing? We have cut-off the light. Mans solution? "Oh that's OK". "Lights - camera - action".


I don't think anyone here is arguing otherwise.
I see there are some who have conversation with Rufus, you being one. Are they, or you in agreement with some of his points? I'm in this instance agreeing more with him than those disagreeing.

Quote:
Trying to come up with "Props, Seminars or Programs smacking of motivational pitches, can be hurtful.


Who's arguing for that? I mentioned "object lessons"--using something from everyday life to illustrate a God-breathed, Scriptural point. Jeremiah did it. Isaiah did it. Is it wrong for us to do it? Besides, I've been quite clear that the preaching of the Word is central.
We are not a "stiff necked people", and that is to whom Jeremiah and Isaiah were speaking. We are not Israel. Christ told Paul, and Paul told us, here I come. "I go to the Gentiles for they will hear."Pure stupidity, and heresy I know, but that is what I believe.

I have never said you, or any other on this board believe His Word was not to be central. But what we say, do and present (in what ever manner) can take away that which is "Central". Once we unknowingly believe what we can present will enhance the meaning and more clarify His Word (Which is plain) moves us from the Center of all things. When we add (or subtract) to the center of all things, I say we wish to interject, attempting to clarify what has already been made Central.
Quote:
What we on our own come up with only makes His Word palatable to the lost, and pabulum to the church members.


I'm not sure I get this. In any worship service, there is creativity. When we sing a hymn...didn't someone "come up with" that? When we illustrate a point in a sermon...isn't that human creativity? God uses us, as creative beings, to proclaim His truth. Now...if His truth is absent, then Houston indeed has a problem. But creativity does not water down the Gospel unless it replaces it. When I used the "Facing the Giants" clip, it was to illustrate a truth from the Word...not something to go in place of said truth.
I believe only He can create. I have not seen the film, but I know what it portrays, as all films that are supposed to inspire us to believe and come to Christ that are made to make money, and charge to do so.

To begin with to who goes the "hype"? By reputation Billy Graham's movies elevate him above others, yet he himself says he may not be welcome in heaven, because he is not "Mother Teresa". It is no sin to build on Gods creativeness, but in doing so are we are not to be doing it, thinking we are gaining points to get into heaven. Evidently Dr. Graham doesn't believe even making movies is enough to work his way to heaven.

Will this "play, show, or movie" you reference win any to Christ? Will it get any that made it, or that or in it, or that see it into heaven? I don't know, but I do know if we preach the Word of believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we will be saved, and there will be new members added to the Body of Christ. Does this "show put on by man" say you will go to hell if you do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or is it watered down to not offend anyone, but made acceptable to the taste of their mind? If I am wrong I here apologize for my ignorance, and making unfounded accusation's without firsthand knowledge of what the show portrays. The show may have elements pointing to a belief in God, but is the Cross with the blood at the center?

The Lost need the Word, and the Saved need to preach the Word of salvation of believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. How they ask? By the Grace of God, through faith of and in Jesus Christ who shed His blood on the Cross, and if we believe we need works also, we do boast.

Quote:
Hey I'll bet people would pay money to hear us sing and play. His Word isn't working, so we'll "strut our stuff" (Thank you Jesus) and show what we can do.


Once again...you're refuting a point no one has made here.
I didn't bring a play such as "Facing the Giants" to help people understand our God.

***

I'm reminded of the story in Mark 9:
Quote:
38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.


The disciples had a problem with how someone else honored God. Jesus set them striaght...as long as they lifted Him up, the disciples were not to stop those who did His work, even if they weren't "one of us."
Shouldn't we ask who us is? To whom is Jesus speaking?
Jesus had not yet shed His Blood. I believe something new, never before known happened on Damascus Road. Again, some will call me a heretic, just as was Paul, for the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven is not the "orthodox preaching of the great commission".

EdSutton
03-09-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm in this instance agreeing more with him than those disagreeing. (snipped)

(snipped) I didn't bring a play such as "Facing the Giants" to help people understand our God. "God, I thank thee, that I'm not as other men ar..." :rolleyes:

Ed

amity
03-09-2007, 10:37 PM
"Old Fashion" Baptist Churches insist on using the same order of service they have for the last 50 or 100 years. The same Bible translation(obvisoulsy the KJV) and no change in how the do Sunday school or Wednesday night services. They have their Revial meetings at exactly the same time each year and refuse to change almost anything about their ministry.

Conservative progressive Baptist churches on the other hand, seem to what to change whatever they need to(without compromising the fundamentals of the faith) resulting in modern music, modern translations and different approaches to Sunday school and evangelism.

It is these Conservative progressive Baptist churches that I see seem to be growing while the "Old Fashion" Baptist Churches seem to be dying out.
I go to a church that is soooo old fashioned that we don't even meet your criteria for old fashioned. Sunday schools, revival meetings as you understand them, mission boards, and Wednesday night services would all be viewed as newfangled extra-scriptural human inventions. And they are! All that stuff was only invented in the late 1700s or later. Brand new!

I think many or most baptist churches have lost track of the quite baptist idea that things should follow the scriptural model. The good ol' way is singing, praying, and preaching in the simplest and most straightforward way possible. EVERYTHING else is a distraction from the true purpose of worship.

And yes, over the last few generations we have been shrinking. Personally, I blame two factors:

1) Most of our churches are out in the country in areas that historically had enough Primitive Baptist population to keep the church going. Now with people more mobile, they oftentimes find themselves in big cities where they may not know of any other PBs.

2) Many modern people who are used to being entertained through TV, movies, concerts, etc., expect production values in worship. We have none. Plus, most people have gotten worldlier in a broader sense, too, and are not willing to undertake the self-denial that goes along with membership at a very conservative church.

And someone said, "The church has gotten worldlier, and the world has gotten church-ier."

I Am Blessed 24
03-09-2007, 10:49 PM
I didn't bring a play such as "Facing the Giants" to help people understand our God.

That is the finest Christian movie I have seen in a long time. PTL that Christian movies sometimes find a spot in the secular world.

rbell
03-09-2007, 11:23 PM
I'm seeing two extremes:

"Old fashioned should be ditched"

and

"You're doing it differently than me. You must be wrong."

I'm uncomfortable with both.

Ituttut, I don't think you adequately addressed two points I made:

1. There will ALWAYS be creative input in worship. Otherwise, don't sing. Don't use illustrations. Don't expound upon the Scriptural text. Don't use a poem. Don't play an instrument. Don't pray in your own words. God wants us to be creative...but He doesn't want us supplanting His word with creativity...which, by the way, my church doesn't do.

2. You didn't really address Mark 9. To be honest, I'm not sure what you did with that account. But the fact remains...some of the disciples had their Authentic Biblical Bathrobes in a wad because someone who wasn't on their "approved list" was doing the work of Jesus. I think the point is quite applicable here.

Let me commend so many of you posters. It's one thing to say, "I don't like that," or "I'm not using that in my church." Most all of you have stayed away from, "That's not of God." That is appreciated.

tinytim
03-09-2007, 11:26 PM
I just watched Facing the Giants tonight for the first time... I love it!!!
If people find something wrong with that movie, they have their heads screwed on backwards!!! It is one of the greatest.

I wish more churches would quit complaining about how bad the world is, and try to do something like Sherwood Baptist did by producing that movie!

And I want to thank the OP for this thread. It has made me appreciate how blessed I am to be a pastor of a church that is not stuck in the 16th century trying to win souls in the 21st century.

Between the movie tonight, and this thread, I was inspired to write an article on my blog about thinking outside the box.

Please, whether your church is old fashioned, progressive, progressive/conservative, etc..... just ask God what He wants you to do to reach people today... He will show you.

But be prepared to act when He shows you.
Don't say, "I'm not going to, God, because we have never done it this way." Try something new for God... He just might surprise you...

Afterall, who would have thought that a stone could take down a giant?
Pretty progressive on David's part I think!!!

What are your stones? Are you using them? If not why not?
I get criticized on here sometimes for my out of the box ideas. But at least I am trying to reach the world.

Don't sit there and condemn us that are trying if you refuse to try yourself...

amity
03-09-2007, 11:28 PM
I would love to see this "Facing the Giants" movie based on the many rave reviews. How can I find it?

tinytim
03-09-2007, 11:29 PM
Walmart has it.
Our local movie rental store has it.

amity
03-09-2007, 11:31 PM
Thanks, Tiny. I will hunt for it. What is it about exactly?

rbell
03-09-2007, 11:38 PM
a "david vs. goliath" story...high school football at a Christian school.

But you'll enjoy it...even if you're not a football fan.

I Am Blessed 24
03-09-2007, 11:41 PM
I am NOT a football fan, but I was riveted to the TV while watching this movie. It made it even more exciting to know these people were not actors. They did a fantastic job!

I rented mine through Netflix, but I'm going to buy a copy.

tinytim
03-09-2007, 11:42 PM
Yeah, what the funny looking guy said above...
It is also about fighting our personal giants in life by the power of God.

Once we realize that all we do in life, whether we win or lose, should be done to glorify God we are ready to face the giants.
All we have to do is give it our best, and leave the rest up to God.

Something like that... I don't want to ruin it for ya!

amity
03-09-2007, 11:43 PM
I am glad you told me that, I Am Blessed. Not being a football fan myself, I admit rbell almost lost me there for a sec!

On the other hand, I loved Chariots of Fire and I am not a track fan...

rbell
03-09-2007, 11:45 PM
BTW amity...have Kleenex handy.

Now I didn't cry...I, er, um, had something in my eye. Both eyes.

amity
03-09-2007, 11:46 PM
Oh no, don't tell me the good guys LOSE!

tinytim
03-10-2007, 12:07 AM
I um..had something in my eyes... too....
No, you will cry when you see God blessings.

And then apply them to thoughts of your own life.

Anyway, that is what I've been told the reason OTHERS cry.

Rufus_1611
03-10-2007, 12:54 AM
Afterall, who would have thought that a stone could take down a giant?
Pretty progressive on David's part I think!!!

What are your stones? Are you using them? If not why not?
I get criticized on here sometimes for my out of the box ideas. But at least I am trying to reach the world.
I would say that progressive was David putting on the armor given to him by Saul as this was the new thing. Conservative was David using the sling that had been proved or already been tried.

amity
03-10-2007, 01:09 AM
Afterall, who would have thought that a stone could take down a giant?
Pretty progressive on David's part I think!!!

What are your stones? Are you using them? If not why not?
I get criticized on here sometimes for my out of the box ideas. But at least I am trying to reach the world.
.
The FIVE smooth stones are grace. Five is the number of grace. I am not a big numerologist, but I got that much!

I Am Blessed 24
03-10-2007, 01:33 AM
David putting on the armor given to him by Saul as this was the new thing.

He didn't keep it on long though. It just didn't feel right to him. :laugh:

I think David took 5 stones because Goliath had 4 brothers...

Bro. James Reed
03-10-2007, 02:45 AM
I have not known of any large size Primitive Baptist churches though. It seems to go against their setup anyway.

I don't know about it being against our set up; I'd sure like to see a church house full of gospel-thirsty brethren every Sunday morning, but I do agree with you about our size. We have tended to remain pretty consistent in size over the last few centuries. You would be hard-pressed to find a Primitive Baptist church with membership over 100. There are several out there, but they are few and far between. The average is probably somewhere around 25 members, which has always been typical of Primitive Baptist churches.

I agree by Primitive Baptist standards these churches would still be progressive.

Yep.

Bro. James Reed
03-10-2007, 02:49 AM
I love singing the old hymns and believe a church should have a blending of modern and traditional Christian music. One connects us to our past, the other points toward the future.

The thing is, when you don't use instruments in church, modern songs sound traditional. It would be hard to have a bass guitar, drum, and keyboard instrumental in a song while singing a cappella.:laugh:

ituttut
03-10-2007, 04:31 AM
"God, I thank thee, that I'm not as other men ar..." :rolleyes:

Ed
Amen! Praise God, we saved sinner's are not as other men, and contend with one another of what was said. Some make remarks, as that is human nature, which makes it interesting revealing how each judge among the brothers.

ituttut
03-10-2007, 04:49 AM
That is the finest Christian movie I have seen in a long time. PTL that Christian movies sometimes find a spot in the secular world.Evidently this is a nice clean movie suitable for the whole family.

I love football and a movie with a good story line, and I'm sure anytime the Word of God goes forth, it will not return to Him void.

rbell
03-10-2007, 10:23 AM
Evidently this is a nice clean movie suitable for the whole family.

I love football and a movie with a good story line, and I'm sure anytime the Word of God goes forth, it will not return to Him void.

Ituttut, borrow or rent this movie when you get a chance. You'll really enjoy it. :wavey:

ituttut
03-10-2007, 05:42 PM
I'm seeing two extremes:

"Old fashioned should be ditched"

and

"You're doing it differently than me. You must be wrong."

I'm uncomfortable with both.

Ituttut, I don't think you adequately addressed two points I made:

1. There will ALWAYS be creative input in worship. Otherwise, don't sing. Don't use illustrations. Don't expound upon the Scriptural text. Don't use a poem. Don't play an instrument. Don't pray in your own words. God wants us to be creative...but He doesn't want us supplanting His word with creativity...which, by the way, my church doesn't do.

And I am uncomfortable with your view, and fully understand there will be creative additions by man injected into worship. But I look at it from another view. If we step back a little we get a much better view of the entire Bible. You spoke of object lessons, as well as being creative. I am not against that but we had better understand what we are doing, and see what others are doing. God address' both these subjects in the beginning hoping we would pay attention.

The first is Adam and Eve being creative in what they believe to be the correct attire. Lesson? He sets the standard.

The second is the offspring of sinful man that wishes to be creative. Enter Cain who decides to be creative for he rejects what he has been told. He rebelled and in his will, brought sacrifice that he just knew God would be happy with for it was so beautifully arranged, so colorful, presented with clean hands, free of that awful looking, stinking sticky stuff called blood. The world will reject what God requires. The blood was repulsive to Cain so he determined God was wrong for what God found precious, Cain rejected in his creativeness.

Lesson? We in our creativeness had better not ever leave out what is most precious to God. No preaching of the Cross - believing on our Lord Jesus Christ, is devoid of blood, and rejected by God. Blood must be mentioned for the world cannot make the connection without explaination. I believe "books, shows, programs" are from creative minds of man if this gospel is not central. These appeal to our own human nature, and we tell ourselves how much better off we are now as someone has been so creative to present to the secular world a very beautifully arranged, so colorful, and presented with clean hands, free of that awful looking, stinking sticky stuff called blood.

All I'm saying is we must be careful in our creativeness, and recognize it is so many times just that - Our Creativeness. I stand on the creativeness of God, and His lessons, and not man's. When I write such things as the above I am accused of arrogance, and being dogmatic. I don't mind this for the above is scripture narrowly defined, correctly divided and those that incorrectly judge do not accept assertions that are proved.

Wife has found some more things for me to do - will answer rest of your post tomorrow (God willing).

amity
03-10-2007, 07:10 PM
If I want to be creative I'll take an art class.

We really ought to try following the Biblical pattern first. Let's do things God's way. The Bible is a thorough furnisher.

rbell
03-10-2007, 08:47 PM
If I want to be creative I'll take an art class.

We really ought to try following the Biblical pattern first. Let's do things God's way. The Bible is a thorough furnisher.

It's not "either-or."

Creativity is a part of worship. Otherwise, there is no music, no sermon--other than the Scripture being read--no vocalized prayer, etc.

No one here is saying, "Hey, let's be creative at the expense of God's way."

And remember...we don't have an AD 60 bulletin from The First Baptist Church of Philippi. We don't know each and every element of the oldest of old-school worship. We do know we're admonished to sing, to pray, to listen to (and do) the Word, and other stuff. God's not up there going, "YOU REPROBATE...you did the offering in the wrong part of the service!!!" (insert lightning zap here)

If our creative input overshadows or diminishes God's message, then we have a problem. But if we use our creativity to illustrate God's message, I see absolutely no problem.

The first is Adam and Eve being creative in what they believe to be the correct attire. Lesson? He sets the standard.

You're describing sin and its consequences. Creativity and sin are not the same thing.

amity
03-10-2007, 11:26 PM
It's not "either-or."

Creativity is a part of worship. Otherwise, there is no music, no sermon--other than the Scripture being read--no vocalized prayer, etc.

No one here is saying, "Hey, let's be creative at the expense of God's way."

And remember...we don't have an AD 60 bulletin from The First Baptist Church of Philippi. We don't know each and every element of the oldest of old-school worship. We do know we're admonished to sing, to pray, to listen to (and do) the Word, and other stuff. God's not up there going, "YOU REPROBATE...you did the offering in the wrong part of the service!!!" (insert lightning zap here)

If our creative input overshadows or diminishes God's message, then we have a problem. But if we use our creativity to illustrate God's message, I see absolutely no problem. The point is, if you design a worship service whose object is to give vent to human creativity, then that can only come at the expense of overshadowing the word of God. I have not been to very many churches outside of my own faith in decades, but when I have been it has generally been an enormous shock. I have been entertained! That is really too bad. A worship service should not be choreographed.

I suppose whatever I say is bound to fall on deaf ears because you have never known it any other way. That is about all there seems to be out there these days.

ituttut
03-11-2007, 04:03 PM
ituttut:To finish (snipped what has been answered).

rbell: 2. You didn't really address Mark 9. To be honest, I'm not sure what you did with that account. But the fact remains...some of the disciples had their Authentic Biblical Bathrobes in a wad because someone who wasn't on their "approved list" was doing the work of Jesus. I think the point is quite applicable here.

Not to be flippant but to answer again can we apply correctly the Word of God and know when was the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Had John and Messiah been included in Prophecy? What was that gospel, and to whom it was preached? Mark 1:1-5. We need to go to Matthew to flesh out to see the whole message in the gospel of Jesus Christ. We see in chapter 3 verse 2 the gospel told that the "kingdom is at hand", as well as in Mark, and Luke.

Can we agree then that the gospel of Jesus Christ was that of John the Baptist? I believe Mark, Matthew, and Luke can be trusted in this, just as the "great commission" can be trusted as shown in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

We see this same gospel being preached on the day of Pentecost and was in prophecy, but "the kingdom is at hand" has been dropped. So then the gospel changed to that "Kingdom will come", and no longer "it is at hand".

As we progress to the purpose of God, we see this same gospel is given to Peter to preach on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:38? We notice this is all still in prophecy for proselytes can still come, but still can't enter into the inner court of the Temple.

With this information shown in His Word, which we believe in, Mark 9 perhaps can be better explained. What happened in Mark 9, took place in prophecy. It happened before Jesus shed His blood (Jesus said the Gentile, other than by proselysation is not included in that "Kingdom gospel), and then Pentecost came, and there were none outside of that group that could cast out Devil's, for surely scripture would tell us this was happening in that day.

What I am trying to get across is, if we believe the Bible and Christ Jesus from heaven, as well as on earth, we are to believe scripture for it tells us things that are not in prophecy or any where else. His Word says He had hidden from man since the beginning His Purpose of reconciling the world unto Himself. This cannot be in prophecy so that which happened in Mark 9 cannot be applied today. Is it the same gospel of the Cross that came after Acts 9, and was there a change in whom could now be included in this new gospel, and who could also be preached to? The gospel had to be changed from the "Kingdom gospel", to the "Body gospel".

The above is the reason we cannot make applicable today what is shown in Mark 9, as this is a specific incident occurring in that day only. That "Kingdom will come" is all that is known in Mark 9, but the reference was not available after Pentecost, and certainly not after Acts 9.

Let me commend so many of you posters. It's one thing to say, "I don't like that," or "I'm not using that in my church." Most all of you have stayed away from, "That's not of God." That is appreciated.

"Judge not that you be not judged." You take great liberty in you condemnation, and in your blessings. No where have I stated "That's not of God". Those are your words. I quote scripture understood.

Please answer (I've furnished you with this information) what is of God. Did Jesus while on earth preach a Gospel? What was it, and where did it come from? To whom did He preach? Was there a "Kingdom at hand", and is not the next thing on the agenda when He left this earth that the "Kingdom will come"? Tell me if this information is from God. If it is then you greatly err in condemning HIS WORD.

I believe the above, and I understand it. I also now know next on the agenda is the rapture so that "Kingdom can come". I know today Christ from heaven gave to my Apostle, and yours and every creature on this earth today another gospel. It is the gospel, and the only gospel that will get us into the "BODY OF CHRIST".

How do we enter in? Just as scripture tells, and not until God reveals what "He had hidden", was it possible to do so. Our gospel today is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Is this all, and if so HOW and WHEN is it made possible. Only when it appears in His Word. It first appears in writing where it can be understood, and also WHEN it can be understood. Ephesians 2:4-9, "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Tell me if this of God or things I have made up, as some endeavor to convince other's.

ituttut
03-11-2007, 04:14 PM
Ituttut, borrow or rent this movie when you get a chance. You'll really enjoy it. :wavey:I'll check it out. I like a good story line.

ituttut
03-11-2007, 04:18 PM
If I want to be creative I'll take an art class.

We really ought to try following the Biblical pattern first. Let's do things God's way. The Bible is a thorough furnisher.I've said it before to you. WoW!

rbell
03-11-2007, 05:41 PM
You take great liberty in you condemnation, and in your blessings. No where have I stated "That's not of God". Those are your words. I quote scripture understood.



I believe you misunderstood me. I was commending you for not being condemning in your posts.

ituttut
03-11-2007, 06:43 PM
ituttut, You're describing sin and its consequences. Creativity and sin are not the same thing.
Sin is brought about by being creative. To create is to bring into mind or do something that is NEW. If we do not take the initiative to do something we believe to be creative, then we cannot sin. We have His Word and we are told to Preach His last gospel He gave to man. That gospel came from Him in heaven.

Evidently that is not enough for we now decide we are to be creative, that is to actually believe we are the creator, and can create something new.

The problem is the word that is being used, i.e. we are to create. There is only one that can create, and we know it is not us. Change the word we are using, then we can take what God gave to us to aid in "spreading the gospel of Paul", but we ourselves cannot create anything.

rbell
03-11-2007, 07:01 PM
Sin is brought about by being creative. To create is to bring into mind or do something that is NEW. If we do not take the initiative to do something we believe to be creative, then we cannot sin. We have His Word and we are told to Preach His last gospel He gave to man. That gospel came from Him in heaven.

Evidently that is not enough for we now decide we are to be creative, that is to actually believe we are the creator, and can create something new.

The problem is the word that is being used, i.e. we are to create. There is only one that can create, and we know it is not us. Change the word we are using, then we can take what God gave to us to aid in "spreading the gospel of Paul", but we ourselves cannot create anything.

so then, what do you do with the Psalmist's phrase, "Sing unto the Lord a NEW song?"

We're just not gonna agree on this. When we sing the "Hallelujah Chorus," the words come from God...but he used G.F. Hanel's creativity to pen the score.

God created us in His image. We are creative beings.

I stand by my words. And when we do anything creative...song, written word, illustration, object lesson...then according to you we've sinned...because we've "diminished the Gospel." I think it's entirely possible to preach the Gospel, use creative means to do so, and still honor God and reach people through the process.

ituttut
03-11-2007, 07:04 PM
I believe you misunderstood me. I was commending you for not being condemning in your posts.l saw things in your post that pointed in the other direction, but as you say your intention was otherwise I stand corrected, and do apologize.

You are a good debater and I like your humor. He has chosen every one of us, and I doubt any two are alike, other than in our love for Him. We each stand our ground come "Satin or high water", yet we can be moved if He chooses.

rbell
03-11-2007, 08:11 PM
You are a good debater and I like your humor. He has chosen every one of us, and I doubt any two are alike, other than in our love for Him. We each stand our ground come "Satin or high water", yet we can be moved if He chooses.

Well said, sir :wavey:

Jack Matthews
03-12-2007, 12:44 AM
I would wholeheartedly agree that the above mentioned are the two absolutely essential ingredients.

I might have some trouble on what constitutes "adding anything else." We used a very powerful video from Facing the Giants a few months ago to illustrate wholehearted commitment. IMO that doesn't "water down" the Gospel; rather, it becomes an object lesson to illustrate it.

God seems to be a fan of object lessons. Look how he used them with the prophets. As long as we don't worship the method, and the method does not detract from God's glory or message, have at it, IMO.

The Parables of Jesus come to mind as well.

amity
03-12-2007, 02:27 AM
rbell, it is you who are defining the issue as one of "creativity." I am not sure that is what I would have quarrel with if I were framing the issue myself.

Here is what I see when I go to many churches: The dramatic lighting, the set-like physical layout, the segues from one little vignette or performance to another, the printed programs, the rehearsed (or worse, canned!) music, the smooth personas, the pre-written dialogue, literally everything that happens, is based on concepts borrowed from the theater, or more specifically from television. In fact, many churches are theater at its best. The whole production is pitched to the "audience," not toward God. What is supposed to be a worship service is transformed into a convivial morning talk show, or worse a religious Johnny Carson Show. I once was in a church the Sunday before Christmas where they had all the kids standing on a some sort of a platform singing to form a human Christmas tree! The entire thing was worthy of Hollywood! We have made the front area of our churches into a stage and ourselves into an audience.

If you go to such a church, it might be difficult to imagine what the alternative could be, we are so used to the way things happen on TV shows anyway that it may seem perfectly "natural" to us, so let me try to come up with a scriptural example. When you close your eyes and imagine the scene at the sermon on the mount, does your mental image accord with the way things happen in church? Do you see six disciples entering stage left and six disciples entering stage right, each holding a candle aloft, while a chorus of children sings on a Christmas tree shaped platform? If not, then we should reconsider how things are being done.

Don't attempt to provoke emotion in me with pretty music or rehearsed production numbers, smack me in the face with the gospel! It ain't supposed to be entertainment!

ituttut
03-12-2007, 02:29 AM
so then, what do you do with the Psalmist's phrase, "Sing unto the Lord a NEW song?"

We are to keep it in perspective, proving scripture with scripture. If we drop down a few verses in Psalms 33, we find to WHOM this applies. Verse 12, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Don't we find in Deuteronomy 9:26 the prayer for God to not destroy His people, and His inheritance".

We must keep this in context realizing who is the Lord's chosen nation and who will inherit the earth. There are a number of references in the Book of Psalms of a New Song, and they fit like a glove with the Book of Revelations that is written to God's people. Match what you can find in prophecy as spoken in the Psalms, with prophecy future in Revelation chapter 5 of those promised the earth, noticing it is they that will reign on the earth.

If you are reading any of my posts please notice it is God that created the scriptures and not me. I can only point out what He has shown me.

We're just not gonna agree on this. When we sing the "Hallelujah Chorus," the words come from God...but he used G.F. Hanel's creativity to pen the score.

No we don't agree, but that doesn't mean salvation lost, for in our faith we are to work out our own salvation, and I doubt any two agree on too many things.

Do agree Handel used what God had furnished. God created Handel. Handel did not create the song, and he did not create himself and his talent. God did this. It is impossible for us to create anything, for all we can do is use what God has created, not thinking we are the one creating in our own right. You have a talent? If you are using it, then that is why He created it in you.

I stand by my words. And when we do anything creative...song, written word, illustration, object lesson...then according to you we've sinned...because we've "diminished the Gospel." I think it's entirely possible to preach the Gospel, use creative means to do so, and still honor God and reach people through the process.

We sin only if we take credit for what God has created. So count me in as one of those sinner's as I sit here and type out these words as I create a new post that has never been seen before. So I think as you often; but then sometimes I catch myself and say, "this is not new for God knew when He created me, I would be posting this post new to me, but not to Him.

I praise and thank God for at the Cross all my sins were taken care of, both large and small. We're in the same boat in rough waters, but this boat can't be swamped.

John of Japan
03-12-2007, 02:44 AM
Heck, God is never big in numbers.
Hmm. Seems like He wrote a book called "Numbers." Nah, I must be wrong! :laugh:


He had only twelve apostles, his first organized church had only 120 people, Paul made only three missionary journeys, there never was a mention of a big sized New Testament church in the Acts, and yet today half the world claims Jesus Christ as their Savior, the other half froths at His Name, kings and kingdoms have come and gone, the devil had tried to suppress His written word, yet His church survives, and those who would have numbers as their measuring stick would usually have compromised some principle to the world.

Mt 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
Mt 15:38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ac 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Hmm. Pinoybaptist, could you be wrong possibly? :tongue3:

amity
03-12-2007, 02:55 AM
Mt 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
Mt 15:38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ac 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Those folks were not a church. They are just some people who turned out to hear Jesus preach in the first instances!

John of Japan
03-12-2007, 03:04 AM
Those folks were not a church. They are just some people who turned out to hear Jesus preach in the first instances!
But the Lord was concerned enough to mention the numbers Jesus preached to. And yes, those mentioned in the book of Acts became church members: "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47).

While I believe that the glory of God comes first, and numbers are right to consider only when they glorify God, it seems quite myopic in view of the Scriptures I've mentioned to claim that God is never concerned about numbers. In fact, at a minimum, those who oppose evangelism and missions should feel that God might want to reduce the numbers--but He still keeps track. http://bestsmileys.com/wink/1.gif

If God ignored numbers, He wouldn't be omniscient now, would He? "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30).

Filmproducer
03-12-2007, 03:24 AM
I agree that they are thinning down. I predict that they will continue to dwindle, not because what they are preaching and teaching is incorrect, but that it isn't relevant to a society that changes gears every few moments. Churches that evaluate things like VBS, Sunday School, and other institutions of the church are not change for change's sake, but are evaluating whether or not those things still reach people the way they used to. "Fixing" something to work is not always a bad thing. Not always.

I am still reading through this thread so forgive me if I am being redundant, but this post sums it up in a nutshell, IMO. I attended a youth pastor's summit this past Thurs. and Friday, and I was, frankly, shocked by some of the statistics I heard. For example, 10 years ago 88% of teens considered themselves to be Christian compared to 55% of teens today and that 61% of teens drop out of the church once they move past the youth group stage. These figures are alarming to me and also very telling in some ways. We don't have to water down the gospel but we still need to find new ways to reach out to people, especially the younger generation. They are the future and we are losing too many of them, imo.

Good posting Joshua!

*all stats were compiled the Barna Research Group

Filmproducer
03-12-2007, 03:43 AM
If "Old-Fashioned" churches are shrinking it is only because they are not entertaining enough for the masses and I do not believe churches should be about amusing people.

How do you reconcile this with Matthew 15:3-9? Church does not have to be just about amusing people. It is possible to give clear, concise, biblically sound messages but still in a manner that appeals to people. I am in no way saying tradition is wrong or discarded, but change is not always bad.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mexdeaf
03-12-2007, 08:14 AM
Thoughts that come to mind -

1) Was the preaching of Jesus 'culturally relevant'? YES! His message was always geared to the audience- Jew or Gentile, man or woman, Pharisee or tax-collector.

2) Did Jesus use 'methods' to draw a crowd? YES! Miracles. Of course we know that miracles were a sign, but man, could they also draw a crowd. I don't suppose that was a surprise to our Lord.

3) Was Jesus creative in his presentations? YES! There are 29 parables recorded in the Bible. Each one was for the express purpose of illustrating a point or lesson to His audience in a way that they could understand- or not, as the case may be.

In a nutshell- there really is 'nothing new under the sun'.

tinytim
03-12-2007, 09:45 AM
Creativity is not limited to modern churches.
The churches that still use lined out hymnody were creative at one time.
They CREATED a way to sing since people could not read.
In other words they were culturally relevant at one time.
The culture couldn't read, so the church met that need and came up with a way for illiterate people to worship.

But now because it has been done that way for hundreds of years to suggest that they try something else causes some to say we are suggesting they compromise their standards... Which are not standards at all, but merely man created traditions that were started to praise God.

Joshua Rhodes
03-12-2007, 10:07 AM
rbell, it is you who are defining the issue as one of "creativity." I am not sure that is what I would have quarrel with if I were framing the issue myself.

Here is what I see when I go to many churches: The dramatic lighting, the set-like physical layout, the segues from one little vignette or performance to another, the printed programs, the rehearsed (or worse, canned!) music, the smooth personas, the pre-written dialogue, literally everything that happens, is based on concepts borrowed from the theater, or more specifically from television. In fact, many churches are theater at its best. The whole production is pitched to the "audience," not toward God. What is supposed to be a worship service is transformed into a convivial morning talk show, or worse a religious Johnny Carson Show. I once was in a church the Sunday before Christmas where they had all the kids standing on a some sort of a platform singing to form a human Christmas tree! The entire thing was worthy of Hollywood! We have made the front area of our churches into a stage and ourselves into an audience.

If you go to such a church, it might be difficult to imagine what the alternative could be, we are so used to the way things happen on TV shows anyway that it may seem perfectly "natural" to us, so let me try to come up with a scriptural example. When you close your eyes and imagine the scene at the sermon on the mount, does your mental image accord with the way things happen in church? Do you see six disciples entering stage left and six disciples entering stage right, each holding a candle aloft, while a chorus of children sings on a Christmas tree shaped platform? If not, then we should reconsider how things are being done.

Don't attempt to provoke emotion in me with pretty music or rehearsed production numbers, smack me in the face with the gospel! It ain't supposed to be entertainment!

Thanks for casting your experiences and opinions on all of us. It certainly doesn't make you appear judgmental or disparaging in any way.

The fact is, you're better off in your church. If you came to mine, you'd probably find most of these things you've mentioned. I'm not going to debate that with you, as you have pretty much offended me with your entire paintbrush approach. I see nothing wrong with good lighting so people can see, a sound system that allows people to hear, and (God-forbid) excellence in the music ministry. I know nothing draws me into the presence of God like trying to sing a hymn while the pianist is "muddling through." ;)

This argument is NOT about numbers, but it's impossible to seperate the two. How many people have joined your fellowship in the last year? How many have said, "I must join this body of believers, because they've got exactly what I need... a smacking in the face!"

rbell
03-12-2007, 10:23 AM
rbell, it is you who are defining the issue as one of "creativity." I am not sure that is what I would have quarrel with if I were framing the issue myself.


Sorry you don't like my definition of "creativity." I guess Mr. Webster was wrong.

Here is what I see when I go to many churches: The dramatic lighting, the set-like physical layout, the segues from one little vignette or performance to another, the printed programs, the rehearsed (or worse, canned!) music, the smooth personas, the pre-written dialogue, literally everything that happens, is based on concepts borrowed from the theater, or more specifically from television. In fact, many churches are theater at its best.

so...let me get this straight:

A well-lit stage is evil.
A big stage is evil.
Bulletins are evil.
Recorded music is evil.
Dramas are evil.
Anything that looks like anything ever done dramatically or that has been recorded on video is evil.Wow. Remember what Jesus said about the judgement by which you judge...

When you close your eyes and imagine the scene at the sermon on the mount, does your mental image accord with the way things happen in church? Do you see six disciples entering stage left and six disciples entering stage right, each holding a candle aloft, while a chorus of children sings on a Christmas tree shaped platform? If not, then we should reconsider how things are being done.

Well, now sister...you are sinning, if you follow your own logic. Reasons:

You meet indoors...Jesus spoke outdoors.
Do men and women sit together? If so, you're wrong...they didn't in the first century.
Do you use any amplification? If you use a mic, you're sinning, because Jesus didn't.
Are you wearing 20th century attire? If so, you're wrong, because these folks had 1st century garb.
Do you have indoor plumbing? Wrong again, if you do.You're imposing your preferences, and selectively imposing first century guidelines in worship. Now...since I don't follow your logic, I think what you do in your worship is fine.

Don't attempt to provoke emotion in me with pretty music or rehearsed production numbers, smack me in the face with the gospel! It ain't supposed to be entertainment!

Your dig at my church is not the least bit appreciated. I get a bit steamed when someone who has never been to my church decides to lecture me about how I'm dishonoring God in my worship.

amity
03-12-2007, 11:15 AM
So you recognized your own church in my little description! Did I ever say "your church"? I have no idea what you do in "your church." If it convicts you, you will hopefully reconsider. The scriptural pattern for worship is just as simple as it can be made.

Glad what I said hit home.

tinytim
03-12-2007, 12:03 PM
OUch.....
That was sharp.

tinytim
03-12-2007, 12:11 PM
So you recognized your own church in my little description! Did I ever say "your church"? I have no idea what you do in "your church." If it convicts you, you will hopefully reconsider. The scriptural pattern for worship is just as simple as it can be made.

Glad what I said hit home.

Worship should be giving God our best...
not a shoddy performance.

The musicians should be the best they can be.
So should the singers.
The sound man should do his best,
as should the one in charge of lighting.

God gifted them... it is not right for you to say they are not worshipping God by using the gifts they have. That is very presumptuous.
Don't call something evil that God has called good.
And I know God has called our worship good. He has approved it, no matter what you say. You are not God.

If an artist paints a picture for the glory of God, it is worship.
If a photographer takes a picture of the sunset for the glory of God it is worship.

If dancer dances to the glory of God it is worship.

Simple is not always Godly.
And Godly is not always simple...
look at Solomon's temple... just a simple shack I suppose.

Jerome
03-12-2007, 12:49 PM
Yes, just think how much more effective Jesus could have been had He had a "sound man", a "dance team", a "worship band".

2 Timothy2:1-4
03-12-2007, 01:43 PM
Junior Hill was once told that people will repsond to his alter calls better if he would preach in blue shirts. He told this individual that he is sure the disciples would have wanted to know that.

Mexdeaf
03-12-2007, 03:00 PM
Junior Hill was once told that people will repsond to his alter calls better if he would preach in blue shirts. He told this individual that he is sure the disciples would have wanted to know that.

:laugh::applause::thumbs:

rbell
03-12-2007, 03:05 PM
So you recognized your own church in my little description! Did I ever say "your church"? I have no idea what you do in "your church." If it convicts you, you will hopefully reconsider. The scriptural pattern for worship is just as simple as it can be made.

Glad what I said hit home.

Actually, I didn't recognize my church in your invectives. I recognized a pharasaical tone that Jesus preached against.

If it convicts you, you will hopefully reconsider.

The scriptural pattern for prideful judgementalism is just as simple as it can be made.

rbell
03-12-2007, 03:09 PM
Junior Hill was once told that people will repsond to his alter calls better if he would preach in blue shirts. He told this individual that he is sure the disciples would have wanted to know that.

That is actually true. Just recently, archaeologists unearthed one of the earliest known portraits of Peter, James, and John:
http://www.chicagogigs.com/images/content/blue-man-group_blue-man-group_theatre_tickets_029889.jpg

:laugh: :laugh:

ituttut
03-12-2007, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by John of Japan
Originally Posted by pinoybaptist

Heck, God is never big in numbers.

Hmm. Seems like He wrote a book called "Numbers." Nah, I must be wrong!

John have you considered one of David's great sins highlighted in II Samuel 24? It is the numbers game. When God was dealing directly with His own, judgment took place in the dispensation they lived. God will again deal directly with all so we each brace ourselves for that day we stand before Christ to see what of ours will be burned. I hope I am not left naked before him.

I believe God holds charges against the Baptist churches, as well as others as they wish to record and look at those big figures in their ledgers to see just how good they are in brining in the numbers. Is this "carnal" or is it "spiritual" count?

If David sinned in the eyes of God, what makes us think we are above David? God knows how many He has baptized, and how many are his. All we can know is about our self. We leave the numbers to Him as His Word works.

Eight souls out of millions or billions in the dispensations Noah lived? We are told at that time, it will be as in the days of Noah.

He had only twelve apostles, his first organized church had only 120 people, Paul made only three missionary journeys, there never was a mention of a big sized New Testament church in the Acts, and yet today half the world claims Jesus Christ as their Savior, the other half froths at His Name, kings and kingdoms have come and gone, the devil had tried to suppress His written word, yet His church survives, and those who would have numbers as their measuring stick would usually have compromised some principle to the world.

Mt 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
Mt 15:38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ac 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
All spoken only to His people, those of the "Kingdom Church". There were hundreds of thousands or millions of God's people in Judah, and Israel. From our standards this is a puny count, and God thought so too as the "Kingdom at hand" is going to be put-off in order for the purpose of God to come about. They "stumbled" in order for us to hear.

Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

James, a man in the "Kingdom under Law" that will inherit the earth. We see in this section of Acts Paul will do anything to "gain the Jews", even come under the Law to gain them (I Corinthians 9:20), but we see God said nothing doing Paul; I will not let you go back under bondage of law for your love of your people that you had killed, beaten, whipped, and harassed. I will not let you make that blood sacrifice.

Christians do not do those laws and ordinances that are only for His people in their belief. God is going to get Paul to Rome to spread his gospel to the whole world whether Paul liked it or not.

amity
03-12-2007, 06:13 PM
Actually, I didn't recognize my church in your invectives. I recognized a pharasaical tone that Jesus preached against.

If it convicts you, you will hopefully reconsider.

The scriptural pattern for prideful judgementalism is just as simple as it can be made. I hope I will get only more strident on this issue. We really need to stop and THINK! What are we doing? A STAGE in church (well lit or not!)? And it is actually being called it that, too! A sound man, for the love o' mercy?!??!?

tinytim
03-12-2007, 06:43 PM
What do you call the front portion of the church where your preacher preaches? Some call it a stage, some platform, pulpit, holy desk.. etc.
Some churches even have curtains they pull for plays and such!!

OH MY...NOT A PLAY IN CHURCH!!!!

And yes, some churches have sound people... some even associate with us here on BB.
Why, some of our churches have electricity, indoor plumbin, and copiers!!!
We no longer light lanterns to see, and we have A/C in the summer and heat in the winter...We no longer write with feathers, we actually have these thangs called ball point pens.

We have glass in our windows, and an electric piano, electric guitar, No Organ though, we have DVDs, TVs, and a fully furnished kitchen. (complete with that new fangled thang called a microwave!!!)

God intends for us to use the technology that is developing to reach more and more people.
My son is my media manager. He runs my powerpoint that I use when I preach. He also controls some videos and and music we use. I've even written music videos to be used with some of my songs.

Do you intend to tell me that our church is wrong for reaching out and providing the means to reach more people for Christ?

I dare you... because you will then be going against the will of God. For he has given us everything we use, and is blessing us for using it!
(50% new growth in one yr) OOOppps sorry, I guess that would disqualify us from belonging to the "holy remnant"

I guess you would be against PowerPoint also?
What about tapes to the shutins.. ooops CDS or DVDs now...
And MP3s for podcasts...
My sermons converted to flash so that people that have to miss church can still see them on our website.
What about church chatrooms... we just had a Bible study online a couple weeks ago in our chat room.
We also have an online forum where we have ongoing Bible studies...

But we are such sinners huh?

I'll tell you what... describe what an average Sunday morning worship service is like for you. What do you do in Church?

The Bible says that the more you have the more you are responsible for.
We are living in a generation where anything is possible with technology.
If you don't use everything you got to reach souls, God is going to ask you why. He is going to hold you accountable...

I want to do everything I can to keep someone out of hell, everything.
Do you? or are you stuck in 17th century style worship that is not relevant to modern man?

OH< and before you think we are some big church in the city, we are not.
We are a small country church that is determined that with God all things are possible. (Average worship attendance 60) Ah, man, theres that number thing again!!!

ituttut
03-12-2007, 07:16 PM
Thoughts that come to mind -

1) Was the preaching of Jesus 'culturally relevant'? YES! His message was always geared to the audience- Jew or Gentile, man or woman, Pharisee or tax-collector.

Hi Mexdeaf. Most definitely "culturally relevant", narrowly defined. Jesus attracted all men and women, but He only preached His message of the "Kingdom" to His people, and healed only His people, except on few occasion's as we see in Matthew 15:21-28. He had no "dealings with the Gentiles", unless absolutely necessary. We find this avoidance of preaching directly to, or at such as me, is carried through to Acts 10, and then by hand shake the Apostles later say they have not (Peter one time forced to), and will never preach their circumcision gospel to the Gentile - Acts 15, and Galatians 2.

We cannot change scripture to suit our purposes.

2) Did Jesus use 'methods' to draw a crowd? YES! Miracles. Of course we know that miracles were a sign, but man, could they also draw a crowd. I don't suppose that was a surprise to our Lord.

Jesus used the Intercessor, the Comforter. As you say He was not surprised.

3) Was Jesus creative in his presentations? YES! There are 29 parables recorded in the Bible. Each one was for the express purpose of illustrating a point or lesson to His audience in a way that they could understand- or not, as the case may be. God is truth, and God speaks truth to His people.

In a nutshell- there really is 'nothing new under the sun'.Amen!

amity
03-12-2007, 07:18 PM
I'll tell you what... describe what an average Sunday morning worship service is like for you. What do you do in Church? What do we do in church you ask? Along about 10:30 one of the brethren stands up in the front of the aisle and calls a number. He or someone else pitches it by ear and starts off and we all join in, 4-part harmony. After two hymns he calls someone else who repeats, and so on until 11:00 or so. No instruments BTW. Then one of the brethren offers prayer, and whoever is preaching gets in the stand and starts off preaching using a Bible and his vocal cords. After about an hour, around noon, we sing another hymn and everyone goes around shaking one another's hand and greeting the preacher. Then we have a final prayer and go to the other building to get lunch ready. This is more or less how baptist worship was for centuries up until recently.

The last time I had this discussion with someone it was over a sign advertising "clown-led worship" in front of a non-Baptist church. I said I thought it was unscriptural to have a clown lead worship. Was I being pharasaical? The person told me that whatever would bring people in so that they could save their souls was legit. I said why not have an exotic dancer lead worship, then, if it will pull the masses in so we can save their wretched souls? Bound to be more effective than a clown, right?? Believe it or not the lightbulb came on at that instant and they jumped at the idea! I hope it is not happening even as we speak. So that argument does not wash with me any longer, I am afraid. Once we start relying on our own wisdom in matters of worship the battle to keep worldliness of the church is lost. God told us, pray, preach, and sing, and that oughta be enough.

I am strongly supportive of the regulative principle of worship. I think we can see where things lead when man follows his own idea of right and wrong in pursuit of a supposedly "good aim." For the things that seemeth right to a man... I am sure you can see the qualitative difference between having an automatic coffeemaker in the lunchroom and having a clown leading a worship service. so I won't waste words. Clowns, stages, and sound managers are fine, but not in a worship service. To the degree that a church service entertains, it is no longer worship.

tinytim
03-12-2007, 07:35 PM
To the degree that a church service entertains, it is no longer worship.

Thank you, and to that I agree.
Worship is about HIM... not us.

Thank you, I have never experienced PB worship.

amity
03-12-2007, 07:39 PM
Tiny, I am not saying that is the only way to do it. In fact even in PB churches there is some variation, and that "Texas two step" bit where men each get to pick two songs I think is limited pretty much to Texas and Arkansas, from what I have heard. The point to me is that with worship, less is definitely more. And an attempt to follow the scriptural pattern is always appreciated by me, however its done! And no fine production values to steal the show from the simple word of God and the true focus on God that comes from singing songs oneself.

Ezekiel 43:10
Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

ituttut
03-12-2007, 08:09 PM
I dare you... because you will then be going against the will of God.
"Ouch" Not too sharp, but tearing.

John of Japan
03-12-2007, 08:35 PM
John have you considered one of David's great sins highlighted in II Samuel 24? It is the numbers game. When God was dealing directly with His own, judgment took place in the dispensation they lived. God will again deal directly with all so we each brace ourselves for that day we stand before Christ to see what of ours will be burned. I hope I am not left naked before him.

Yes, I've considered David's sin. His sin was in counting selfishly and for his own glory rather than God's glory, not in counting, since at other times God commanded him and other OT kings and generals to count Israel and/or the troops.


I believe God holds charges against the Baptist churches, as well as others as they wish to record and look at those big figures in their ledgers to see just how good they are in brining in the numbers. Is this "carnal" or is it "spiritual" count?

As I said in my previous post to Amity, numbers should be for God's glory and not ours. There are many places in Scripture where God Himself counted or commanded to count, including the whole book of Numbers, so obviously the act of counting in and of itself is not a sin, and can be for God's glory.

Does your church have a list of members? If so is that unspiritual counting? I think not.

If David sinned in the eyes of God, what makes us think we are above David? God knows how many He has baptized, and how many are his. All we can know is about our self. We leave the numbers to Him as His Word works.

Funny, I thought God commanded us to baptize. (Unless, like Pinoybaptist, you don't believe the Great Commission in Matthew is for us. :rolleyes: ) Last time I baptized I don't remember an angel coming down and saying, "Okay, John, God sent me to do this instead of you."


Again, every single time a soul is saved that is for God's glory. So if I say, "God brought revival and five folks publicly confessed their faith in Christ," I believe that is to His glory.

Eight souls out of millions or billions in the dispensations Noah lived? We are told at that time, it will be as in the days of Noah. All spoken only to His people, those of the "Kingdom Church". There were hundreds of thousands or millions of God's people in Judah, and Israel. From our standards this is a puny count, and God thought so too as the "Kingdom at hand" is going to be put-off in order for the purpose of God to come about. They "stumbled" in order for us to hear.

Noah's story is a great encouragement to me, since I live and work in a "Gospel-resistant" country. However, I keep track of how many tracts I get out, for example, since my supporting churches have a right to know if I am being lazy and taking their support for naught. Is that type of counting sin? I think not.

James, a man in the "Kingdom under Law" that will inherit the earth. We see in this section of Acts Paul will do anything to "gain the Jews", even come under the Law to gain them (I Corinthians 9:20), but we see God said nothing doing Paul; I will not let you go back under bondage of law for your love of your people that you had killed, beaten, whipped, and harassed. I will not let you make that blood sacrifice.

Christians do not do those laws and ordinances that are only for His people in their belief. God is going to get Paul to Rome to spread his gospel to the whole world whether Paul liked it or not.

We will have to agree to disagree on theology here. I believe Paul and James were on the same team in the church age.

tinytim
03-12-2007, 08:36 PM
Since you described yours, let me describe ours.

skip Sunday School, go to Worship at 10:45..

If you were a visitor to our church, you would get out of your car, go through the front doors, there you are greeted by a greeter...and you will see people everywhere talking, and enjoying one another. After you find a seat you would be swamped by people welcoming you. We absolutely love visitors!!!

You would then notice announcements either in the bulletin that you were handed, or on the wall up front. (via PowerPoint) I lead the service also.
I welcome everyone, and give the most important announcements outloud. We then have a bidding prayer where I start the prayer out, and name categories for the congregation to say a name or a sentence or whatever the Holy Spirit puts on their heart. I will say something like, "Now we lift up the names of those that are sick" you would then hear people from all over the church joining in the prayer.

After this the choir sings the call to worship song.
Then the congregation sings.
Then the offering is taken up.
Doxology is sung... ( I have surprised them with other songs!)
Then the youth leader sometimes has the children sing, or sometimes has a children's story to tell.. (I think I get as much out of this as the children do!!!)

The Children are then dismissed to go downstairs to childrens church, while we shake each other's hands, and welcome everyone, or as someone said earlier... "love on people"

We then sing a praise song (modern) with the lyrics on the screen from the PowerPoint or on the back of the bulletin.

I then get into my sermon. I always try to start with an illustration that would be relevant to my sermon. Sometimes it is a video clip, comic strip, news article, funny story, or I might sing a song... just something that is relevant to the sermon and to get the attention and keep it for the sermon... Then I go right to the scripture and the pastoral prayer.

I have different styles of preaching. Most of the time I just use the 3-4 points out of the scripture, expository.. or sometimes I go for topical, very rarely I use the storytelling approach, as I am just not that comfortable with it...
But the main points of my sermon and the scriptures are all projected by the powerPoint. (my son running it. He has gotten used to my sermons, so he knows when to advance the next slide ... This also keeps him alert to my sermons, instead of the girls!!!!... ol dad is using his head here!!)
The older people with failing eyesight and hearing love the powerpoint. For they can see the sermon, and scriptures in type that they can read.
(BTW, God used powerpoint... remember the handwriting on the wall...lol OK bad joke)
I will preach about 30-35 minutes.
Then give an invitation. (I'm sure that is different from the PBs, right?)
I don't drag it out, but as we sing, the opportunity to pray at the altar is there if the Holy Spirit draws them.

After the invitation, I again thank the people for coming, and close with either me praying a pastoral prayer, or one of the other men praying. This is between noon, and 12:10.

People then get up and are supposed to leave... but lately they have seemed to stick around just talking and fellowshipping.
Some Sundays we have a basket at the door for people to give to specific missions or missionaries we support.
We also have on some Sundays special poems read, songs sung, skits, etc. not for entertainment, but to direct people's thoughts to God.

There is one lady in the church that loves to play the flute and she is practicing playing the praise chorus now so she can play it for the first time in church in the next few weeks... (BTW, this is a song that Joshua, here on BB wrote! Beautiful!!) she is willing to use her talents to praise God, and help add to our worship experience.

While we make sure the sound is right, the lighting is right, and such it is not to add to the entertainment of the service, but if the sound is not right, the people can't hear. If the lighting is not right, the people can't see the powerpoint.

Everything we do is to help people worship God..
It is not a showy atmosphere, but one of unified worship with reverence to God...
and if you are ever in my part of WV, feel free to stop in.
or I welcome you to go the sermons page of our website to see a sample of a PowerPoint sermon I have preached.

tinytim
03-12-2007, 08:37 PM
"Ouch" Not too sharp, but tearing.

Yeah, I apologize... that was mean...
I got too carried away...
sorry.

amity
03-12-2007, 09:17 PM
Then give an invitation. (I'm sure that is different from the PBs, right?)
I don't drag it out, but as we sing, the opportunity to pray at the altar is there if the Holy Spirit draws them. We don't have an altar call, but we do "publish an open door to the church" which means an announcement that anyone may come forward and join.

People then get up and are supposed to leave... but lately they have seemed to stick around just talking and fellowshipping.
Some Sundays we have a basket at the door for people to give to specific missions or missionaries we support.
We also have on some Sundays special poems read, songs sung, skits, etc. not for entertainment, but to direct people's thoughts to God. Have lunch! Everybody bring a casserole, church provides the tea, members clean up afterward. Some are probably staying behind anyway because the restrooms have to be cleaned and the church vacuumed, right?

I have no problem per se with the things you say happen (except for the collection plate) and they are all lovely things to do, but couldn't they be more productively done some other occasion rather than take time out of the worship for them? I don't mean to be critical, so please excuse me if it seems that way. If someone has a flute to play, why not do that some other time, for example?

tinytim
03-12-2007, 09:26 PM
What is wrong with the collection?
Don't you take up a collection?
If not how is the church supported?
I am not opposed to different ways... (as you can tell) you may have a better way.
Is your pastor paid a salary?
How are utilities paid?
etc.

And to us everything we do is connected to Worship.
Children singing to God... Worship
Collection... giving to God...Worship
Youth leader telling children story.... (short sermonette) ...Worship
All singing..... Worship
Giving to missions.... Worship
Praying....Worship
Sermon.... Worship
Poems, skits, special songs... directing people to focus on God...Worship.
I have a feeling we disagree on what worship is in a service.

I like your idea of having lunch....
We do that sometimes also.

We also have a custodian that cleans through the week, but yeah, some are straightening classrooms, sanctuary, bathrooms, etc.

I missed the part about the flute when I wrote this, so I am editing the rest of this in.
The flute playing will be accompanying our praise song we sing right before I preach.
As it stands right now, I play an electrical/acousitic guitar to the song.
We have a piano, but no piano player, so we either sing acapella or along with my guitar.

She has been looking for a way to give back to God from her talents, and this will be a perfect way.
God gave her the talent to play, and she is now ready do give it back to Him... To us, that is Worship.

amity
03-12-2007, 10:48 PM
What is wrong with the collection?
Don't you take up a collection?
If not how is the church supported?
I am not opposed to different ways... (as you can tell) you may have a better way.
Is your pastor paid a salary?
How are utilities paid?
etc. No, we do give money, but you have to take the initiative and find a deacon and slip it into his pocket. No one will ask for money. There is no collection. It should all be private. No preacher salary.

And to us everything we do is connected to Worship.
Maybe it depends on definition. For example, someone was talking about Handel's Messiah. Now Messiah is a great favorite of mine. I would definitely drive hours to another city to see a good performance of it. But it would never be performed during a service at church! That is just it, it is a performance, it is not worship.

Brother Bob
03-12-2007, 11:02 PM
amity;
You worship almost identical as we do except I know how you feel on predestination of which we believe man is give a choice. Other than that we worship the same even to the collection of monies, except everyone just brings up to the front their gift to the church what time we are giving out appointments and then calling dismission.
We start by singing for about 30 to 40 minutes and then we have usually a young minsiter not ordained to bring up services and someone will lead prayer. We then have what we call the "meat" preacher come to the stand and he usually is the "doctrine" brother and he preachs for 40 minutes to an hour. Then we have what we call a "closing" brother who is usally a "warm" preacher brother who lifts everyone up in the Spirit if he is blessed by God to close out the meeting. We then give out appointments of other churches meetings and then people give their donations.
We also have a lunchroom attached to the church of which you have to go outside the church and through a door to feed the people after services. I would not let them put the door to the lunchroom in the church because I thought it would disrupt the services.

I forgot to mention, we have no musical instruments either and we "line" our songs.

Bro. James Reed
03-12-2007, 11:20 PM
amity;
You worship almost identical as we do except I know how you feel on predestination of which we believe man is give a choice. Other than that we worship the same even to the collection of monies, except everyone just brings up to the front their gift to the church what time we are giving out appointments and then calling dismission.
We start by singing for about 30 to 40 minutes and then we have usually a young minsiter not ordained to bring up services and someone will lead prayer. We then have what we call the "meat" preacher come to the stand and he usually is the "doctrine" brother and he preachs for 40 minutes to an hour. Then we have what we call a "closing" brother who is usally a "warm" preacher brother who lifts everyone up in the Spirit if he is blessed by God to close out the meeting. We then give out appointments of other churches meetings and then people give their donations.
We also have a lunchroom attached to the church of which you have to go outside the church and through a door to feed the people after services. I would not let them put the door to the lunchroom in the church because I thought it would disrupt the services.

I forgot to mention, we have no musical instruments either and we "line" our songs.

Brother Bob,

I would feel right at home in your church, except for that "little" difference we have over predestination and election. I hope you would feel the same way in ours. If you're ever down this way, you're more than welcome to come worship with us. I don't think we have any Old Regular congregations in this part of the state, so you might would have to visit us.:thumbs:

God bless.

Bro. James

PS We don't line out songs too much anymore since everyone has a song book with shape notes. A cousin of mine, Elder Harold Horn, who is 85 years old, is about the only person left around here who can really line out a song, the old way. I wish we would do it more often, during big meetings and such, so we don't lose it. He is getting old and the last time I heard him asked to line one, he couldn't because he forgot the words to the lines that weren't included in the song book. Maybe I ought to come over there to KY so I can take some lessons from y'all.:laugh:

Brother Bob
03-12-2007, 11:32 PM
Bro. James;
I would make you most welcome at our church and would do my best not to get on predestination:)
I plan on putting some "lined out" songs on my web site soon, so you can go there and hear them. I have just songs on there now but they are not lined.

This may surprise you but after reading amity's post I was thinking if I was in Texas I would probably have to go to the Primitive to feel at home. The only thing is though I couldn't preach and sometimes I get the urge and I am sure you know what I mean. I don't have preacher's itch but do get hungry at times to just preach.

BBob

Amy.G
03-12-2007, 11:36 PM
This is for Bro. Bob, Amity and any other Old Regulars or PB's. I am really enjoying learning about your church services. I have never been to any like them, but they sound very simple and wonderful. I wanted to ask you guys about sunday school. Is that something you don't do? I love the worship service at our church and they are always God centered and simple, but my favorite part of church is sunday school because we talk about scripture with one another and we learn so much. It's also a good way to get to know one another on a more personal level and pray together as a small group. Anyway, I was just wondering if you guys have S.S. at your churches. :)

Here is the link for my church if you're interested.

http://meridianbaptist.net/

amity
03-12-2007, 11:41 PM
This is for Bro. Bob, Amity and any other Old Regulars or PB's. I am really enjoying learning about your church services. I have never been to any like them, but they sound very simple and wonderful. I wanted to ask you guys about sunday school. Is that something you don't do? I love the worship service at our church and they are always God centered and simple, but my favorite part of church is sunday school because we talk about scripture with one another and we learn so much. It's also a good way to get to know one another on a more personal level and pray together as a small group. Anyway, I was just wondering if you guys have S.S. at your churches. :)

Here is the link for my church if you're interested.

http://meridianbaptist.net/ Most PBs do not have Sunday school. I keep qualifying everything I say with "most" because there are so many types of PBs who are not in formal fellowship with each other who have other doctrines and other orders of service, etc. Some, called "progressive" who are mainly black churches DO have Sunday school and musical instruments. There are even Arminian PB churches, I was amazed to find out a few months back. Some PBs believe in the absolute predestination of all things. Some are... well, just all sorts of PBs out there.

I have read a little bit about baptists in England in the very olden days, like 1600s, and they seem to have had the same basic ideas and way of worshipping as old order Baptists (PBs and Old Regulars, etc.) do today, though with some differences. In the U.S. in the late 1700s and early 1800s it is very much like old order baptists today. I guess that is why we are called "old order" Baptists! :)

Brother Bob
03-12-2007, 11:45 PM
Hi Amy;
There was a time many years ago they had Sunday School among the Old Regular Baptist but it was did away with and we have the children sit in on the adult meetings and singing. Of course they sure take their part in the lunchroom. At out Association building we have up swings sets and such for children.
Not too long ago, we did not have lunchrooms at our churches. People prepared dinner at their home and would take so many home with them. Back then I think the children learned more about the church than they do today and sometimes it worries me. If parents don't have their children go to church and let them stay home then we lose out on our future membership.

BBob

Amy.G
03-12-2007, 11:51 PM
Thanks guys. I like the lunch part! Lot's of good fellowship enjoyed during a meal. Baptists do love to eat! Or is that southerners?

Bro. Bob, I've been to your website and you're a good singer!

God Bless

Bro. James Reed
03-12-2007, 11:53 PM
Bro. James;
I would make you most welcome at our church and would do my best not to get on predestination:)
I plan on putting some "lined out" songs on my web site soon, so you can go there and hear them. I have just songs on there now but they are not lined.

This may surprise you but after reading amity's post I was thinking if I was in Texas I would probably have to go to the Primitive to feel at home. The only thing is though I couldn't preach and sometimes I get the urge and I am sure you know what I mean. I don't have preacher's itch but do get hungry at times to just preach.

BBob

Bro. Bob,

It's hard not to get on predestination, at least for me.:laugh:

I know how you feel about preaching. I will go to meetings sometimes and feel so full that I want to burst, but I don't get preached. I might have to preach to the folks in the car on the way home. Of course, I don't get upset or jealous if I don't get put in the stand. The Pastor of the church where the meeting is has the responsibility of choosing who to preach, and I trust his decision and that he believes the Lord leading him in such a way. Then, of course, there are times I go to meetings dreading that I might be asked to preach, and then I am! Hopefully, I will be instant to preach the gospel, even if I am scared to death, but it sure does feel better to get in the stand with the burning desire and a scripture or two on my mind than to get up feeling empty. I pray that the Lord will continue to deliver me in such situations.:praying:

Besides, if I get feeling the urge too much during a service, I can (and you can) always shout! A good Spirit-moved shout during a sermon can be overwhelming...and contagious.

Brother, you are welcome to worship our Lord and Savior with us at anytime you so desire. I think the main (and perhaps only) difference you will find in our practice is that our songs are sung a tad faster than y'alls.:laugh:

rbell
03-12-2007, 11:53 PM
I hope I will get only more strident on this issue. We really need to stop and THINK! What are we doing? A STAGE in church (well lit or not!)? And it is actually being called it that, too! A sound man, for the love o' mercy?!??!?

Yes...the book of Hesitations does prohibit the construction of an elevated place for the preacher to stand. Everyone knows that the only Godly way to preach is to stand on a hillside like Jesus did...in a robe, with men and women seated separately.

And I had forgotten...the book of 1st Confusions does prohibit the use of amplification. And 2nd Confusion 3:99 says, "Should thou needest a microphone, thou mayest not, God forbid, use a person to adjusteth the volume."

Sorry about the translation...I was only able to find the 1769 revision of Hesitations and Confusions.

**************

Two scriptures (from actual books now):

I Peter 4:11--
If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

That one sums up my feeling about folks that serve in our church as we corporately worship Him together.

Matthew 12:21-32--

The lesson from this one: Be very, very, very careful. Jesus was quite harsh on those that took a God thing and assigned it to the realm of Beelzebub. I'm not asking you to like our worship style and approach. But it has been prayed over, it has been laid before God, and it is something we constantly ask for God's guidance on.

Don't like it? Fine. But when you start to say, "That's not of God," you are treading into pretty dicey territory.

What we are doing here is God-honoring, and God is blessing it. I would stake my life upon it.

I have several friends who are PB. I've attended one's church a while back. We've had several good discussions, and agree to disagree. One of them "returned the favor" and attended our church a few months back. He didn't like how the service was set up, but he did say at the end that he thought God was honored in the service. We both went away from our visits having learned something.

amity
03-12-2007, 11:56 PM
Yes, Brother Bob has a wonderful gift for singing. I would love to hear his gift for preaching one day.

Amy, there is a sub-forum on here for Baptist history. I have read some of the posts there and it is very interesting. If you have any questions about how all these different types of baptists came to be and what the issues were there would be a good place to ask.

amity
03-12-2007, 11:59 PM
Yes...the book of Hesitations does prohibit the construction of an elevated place for the preacher to stand. Everyone knows that the only Godly way to preach is to stand on a hillside like Jesus did...in a robe, with men and women seated separately.

And I had forgotten...the book of 1st Confusions does prohibit the use of amplification. And 2nd Confusion 3:99 says, "Should thou needest a microphone, thou mayest not, God forbid, use a person to adjusteth the volume." rbell, I am sure neither one of us would say that anything that is not expressly forbidden by scripture is allowable, would we?

And besides, we aren't under the law. The point is, are we following the N.T. example in worshipping, or adding to it at will?

rbell
03-13-2007, 12:09 AM
rbell, I am sure neither one of us would say that anything that is not expressly forbidden by scripture is allowable, would we?

And besides, we aren't under the law. The point is, are we following the N.T. example in worshipping, or adding to it at will?

I think God gives us a conscience, Biblical principles, and the Holy Spirit for discernment in what is allowable that is extra-Biblical (VERY different from UN-Biblical). For example:

Wet T-shirt contests at church: Not addressed specifically, but quite wrong.
Electric lighting and indoor plumbing at church: Not addressed specifically, but quite nice to have and all right.At my church, twelve years ago, the folks who voted to build our sanctuary decided to have an elevated place for the preacher to stand. We call that a "stage" in Alabama. We would have this "stage" even if we didn't have various instrumentalists and other folks up there. Why did we do such an awful thing? So people could see.

In addition, we have another abomination: a "sound man." This fella makes sure that the 1,000 or so folks that come on Sunday can hear the Word of God (as well as other stuff--but he'd do it if all that was done was preaching). He also commits another extra-biblical act--he records the message so that those who cannot come can also hear.

I'm sorry you think things such as this are wrong. Perhaps we could run off enough folks so that a stage and amplification would not be necessary. Then, we could have deacons commit the entire message to memory, and could go and deliver said message to our homebound folks and nursing home residents.

On second thought, being as God has directed us to where we are now, we'll just keep listening to Him, thanks.

amity
03-13-2007, 12:18 AM
I think God gives us a conscience, Biblical principles, and the Holy Spirit for discernment in what is allowable that is extra-Biblical (VERY different from UN-Biblical). For example:

Wet T-shirt contests at church: Not addressed specifically, but quite wrong.
Electric lighting and indoor plumbing at church: Not addressed specifically, but quite nice to have and all right.. No one is arguing against lights and plumbing. That has nothing to do with worship. You misunderstand the point.

At my church, twelve years ago, the folks who voted to build our sanctuary decided to have an elevated place for the preacher to stand. We call that a "stage" in Alabama. We would have this "stage" even if we didn't have various instrumentalists and other folks up there. Why did we do such an awful thing? So people could see. We have the same thing. We call it a "stand." No one performs on it.

In addition, we have another abomination: a "sound man." This fella makes sure that the 1,000 or so folks that come on Sunday can hear the Word of God (as well as other stuff--but he'd do it if all that was done was preaching). He also commits another extra-biblical act--he records the message so that those who cannot come can also hear. Do you hold a separate worship service afterwards especially for him? In my estimation, it would be better by far to split into 20 different churches of a size where everyone can participate. If someone has to be providing child care, someone else tending the sound system, someone else choreographing the kids group, then things seem to have gotten way out of hand? Not a single scriptural precedent for that sort of thing.

I'm sorry you think things such as this are wrong. Perhaps we could run off enough folks so that a stage and amplification would not be necessary. Then, we could have deacons commit the entire message to memory, and could go and deliver said message to our homebound folks and nursing home residents. We also (sometimes) make tapes for homebound people, and for a record. Again, we aren't Amish and the technology is not the problem. I think you are again misunderstanding the point. I don't think I ever quite said "wrong" in the sense you are using it here. You perhaps just don't know what you are missing. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to be free of all that stuff and just have a sermon-on-the-mount type of experience? Just sit and gather the manna as it appears? The whole thing reminds me of Mary and Martha somehow.

rbell
03-13-2007, 12:32 AM
I guess I should call that teen back that called me tonight, who was excited almost beyond words. He had led his friend to Christ, and was just about ready to bust! What was his connection with that friend? He was teaching him guitar...the Christian teenager helps lead worship on Wednesdays. Oops, sorry...he performs on our stage. Forgot that he was doing it to glorify himself. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Amity, since you think my church is wasting God's time, I shall not interact with you any more on this issue.

It's too bad our poor, pitiful bunch of backslidden believers are doing a third-rate church, and don't get ALL of Jesus.

I'm quite thankful that I've had fruitful and enjoyable discussions with other PB folk here. I shall not hold your attitude against them. And unlike your attitude towards my church, I am quite thankful that God is using our brothers and sisters that are PB to honor Him and reach others with the Good News.

It's just that I hate to think of all the scores of folks that have had their lives transformed by Christ while attending our church. Could you imagine what God could really do if we weren't wrong in everything we've been doing all this time? All that spoiled, rotten manna they've been getting.

Wow. "The Pharisee and the Publican" still rings true today.

amity
03-13-2007, 12:38 AM
I never said any of those things, rbell. You are raising a straw man.

Bro. James Reed
03-13-2007, 12:47 AM
When we first moved to our current location, we had two break-ins at the church. One happened in the sanctuary and the other happened in the kitchen/dining room. They are 2 separate buildings. Nothing was stolen either time. The police officer on the scene, who was the same guy for both break-ins, said that crooks love to break into churches to steal sound equipment, instruments, and other mechanical/electrical equipment. Since that break-in occurred, no more have. I guess the thieves realized we had nothing worth stealing (or getting injured over). The one who broke in the sanctuary got all cut up from the broken window he came through.

Aside from biblical arguments, I am glad we don't have all that equipment I named. If it was stolen and replaced, it would likely have been stolen again later, unless we packed it all up after services and someone took it home, which could lead to it being damaged in the move or being stolen from the home.

I have no problems with a raised platform so the preacher can be seen or a microphone and speakers so the preacher can be heard, although that's not typically a problem with most of our PB preachers.:laugh:

I do not object to anything that would aid us in our worship of the Lord. There is no reason we should have to be uncomfortable or inconvenienced (too much anyway) by being without a/c, indoor plumbing, padded pews, sound system (if needed), etc. My objection comes when things are added specifically to the worship service which has nothing to do with simple worship itself. I know, you all believe these sorts of things(special programs, instruments, side shows, you get the idea) are part of worship, so there's no need to argue that point.

Without dressing up like 1st century shepherds and fishermen, and meeting in caves and on hilltops, we should try to keep our worship service as close as possible to the way Christ set it up. He gave us a perfectly good and righteous way of conducting his worship service, and we ought to follow his example in singing, praying, and preaching.

I fear that, if you took away children's church and Sunday School for the kiddies, instruments and special programs (of the school production sort), and other fun and exciting things, you would lose many folks because they are there just for the excitement and the fun of those things outside of preaching, praying, and singing. Now, it probably wouldn't happen en masse, but I think you would see some people leave. How many people today would sit through a church service without any glitz or glamour? Only those who are truly there to worship their Lord. I am in no way condemning anyone's church here, but pointing out what I think is a reality. Why is it that old-timey churches are typically small and contemporary churches are typically large? If the same doctrine is being preached at both, then people are there for something else, and I think being entertained, and possibly having a babysitter for junior, is the difference.

I am content to be entertained by the gospel. I wish everyone was.

A word of advice, take it if you want, and if not, then leave it. When we as sinful creatures add practices to a perfect worship style, set up by the Lord himself, all we are likely to do is take away from it. Why is it sinners, myself included, are always trying to improve upon something that was perfect the way it was established? Why do we feel the need to try and entice people in using all sorts of means? I myself have been tempted to try new things to get bodies in the seats, yet I realize that anything I might do to "improve" the church and make it appeal to others would only damage our cause. Our cause, as the church, is to preach Jesus Christ and him crucified, nothing more and nothing less. That, in and of itself, is as simple as it gets.

I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone with my comments. That is in no way my intention.

God bless.

Bro. James

amity
03-13-2007, 12:54 AM
Yes, Bro. James. And you know what happened to those two guys who reached out to steady the ark! The Lord will provide for His church.

A church I used to be a member of once had a break-in. They stole our coffee maker! It was all they could find to steal ....

Bro. James Reed
03-13-2007, 12:55 AM
Btw, I think another big reason or differences arises in our reason for being in the church.

Many churches that have things contrary to what most PBs would have believe that they are saving people from hell. Therefore, they are willing to use these means in doing so. Since PBs do not believe we can save people from hell, and our only goal is to worship Christ in spirit and in truth, we fight tooth and nail (sometimes too much) over anything that seems to be taking away from that. Certainly, we want others to come in and worship with us, and even join our church through baptism, but we are not concerned with attracting non-believers in so they can get saved and accept Christ.

I think much of our differences in worship stem from that premise.

Just my thoughts.

JR

Bro. James Reed
03-13-2007, 01:02 AM
Yes, Bro. James. And you know what happened to those two guys who reached out to steady the ark! The Lord will provide for His church.

A church I used to be a member of once had a break-in. They stole our coffee maker! It was all they could find to steal ....

Precisely. I know with all my heart that those men just "knew" that they were doing right by God. Why in the world would God want His ark to fall to the ground, after all.

Likewise, I never try to doubt or disparage anyone for worshipping God the way they think they ought. I will kindly admonish them in the Lord, as I think I have done here, but I don't wish to browbeat people with my beliefs in hopes that it will change theirs. God could have easily kept those men from touching the ark, but He didn't, for whatever reason. I believe they went to heaven too, after He took their natural lives from them.

In lieu of getting caught up in what other churches are doing, especially those with whom we would not fellowship anyway, I think we are doing well in keeping our churches as close to the old paths as possible. If and when God chooses to move on His child to worship in that old simple style, I am confident He will do so, and we will still be here for them.

Hope all is well.

Bro. James

amity
03-13-2007, 01:07 AM
In lieu of getting caught up in what other churches are doing, especially those with whom we would not fellowship anyway, I think we are doing well in keeping our churches as close to the old paths as possible. If and when God chooses to move on His child to worship in that old simple style, I am confident He will do so, and we will still be here for them. Yes, I am glad that I have not really seen very many people who want to change things and start having pancake suppers on Wednesdays or something to try to increase the church. Really, things are not changing.

ituttut
03-13-2007, 04:43 AM
Yes, I've considered David's sin. His sin was in counting selfishly and for his own glory rather than God's glory, not in counting, since at other times God commanded him and other OT kings and generals to count Israel and/or the troops.
Have not been able to locate scripture where God today speaks directly to all the Baptist churches, through their "Conventions", or otherwise. Are we of David, and of God's nation today, we Baptists?
I believe God holds charges against the Baptist churches, as well as others as they wish to record and look at those big figures in their ledgers to see just how good they are in brining in the numbers. Is this "carnal" or is it "spiritual" count?

As I said in my previous post to Amity, numbers should be for God's glory and not ours. There are many places in Scripture where God Himself counted or commanded to count, including the whole book of Numbers, so obviously the act of counting in and of itself is not a sin, and can be for God's glory.
I notice injected twice the phrase "God commanded". Does God command today? Jesus Christ commanded two things, and today makes one request of us. God gave "commands" to His "covenant people", and I can find nowhere that he ever asked or desired the Gentile make "covenant with Him". We are offered the "gift".
Does your church have a list of members? If so is that unspiritual counting? I think not.
For what purpose is it necessary for us to count other than for "numbers" for our own benefit? It would be moronic not to do so, and that is what my church does.

I have missed scripture that says we today are to count our numbers for "spiritual reasons". Are we going to report this information to God? God adds to His Church, and we add, or subtract figures in ours. In Conventions, or congregational meetings what is discussed? Is it not our numbers, the baptisms into our church, the denomination, and the financials? It is our preaching that is to be spiritual and it goes forth to the individual heart, not to save a nation but one into the "Body of Christ".
Quote:

If David sinned in the eyes of God, what makes us think we are above David? God knows how many He has baptized, and how many are his. All we can know is about our self. We leave the numbers to Him as His Word works.

Funny, I thought God commanded us to baptize. (Unless, like Pinoybaptist, you don't believe the Great Commission in Matthew is for us. ) Last time I baptized I don't remember an angel coming down and saying, "Okay, John, God sent me to do this instead of you."
I can find nowhere that He commanded us today to baptize for salvation. His last "great commission" to His Apostles and disciples were all of Israel, and it is a "Kingdom to come" they look for as it is their inheritance. Baptisms of the "great commission" were only done by the hands of those of His nation. You are correct in recognizing the possibility I don't believe the "great commission" was written for the Gentile's benefit, other than for a proselysation into the "Kingdom Church".

As that "Kingdom Church" began to fade as shown in Acts, we see the "Body Church" begin its growth, as baptism's were done without hands, after their spiritual circumcision, and sealed with those stampings.

Was Paul told to "baptize", or was he told to preach the gospel of the grace of God through faith, with no work at all necessary? I understand water baptism is dogma of the Baptist church and every other denomination, and most all cults. We cannot all be correct, and I know the Catholic church is not for they believe it is "they with their hands, that have a hand in saving one being baptized". They believe they have been given this authority by God, because God does not send anyone down from heaven, so they must have the Power just as did His Apostles, and disciples, by the use of their hands.

But is that what we Baptists are to believe, and is this then truly in our doctrine? I thought it was to accept that one that was saved and baptized into the "Body of Christ" Spiritually, and then later be baptized into fellowship with others by the hands of man into that local Baptist church.

Again, every single time a soul is saved that is for God's glory. So if I say, "God brought revival and five folks publicly confessed their faith in Christ," I believe that is to His glory. Amen!
Eight souls out of millions or billions in the dispensations Noah lived? We are told at that time, it will be as in the days of Noah. All spoken only to His people, those of the "Kingdom Church". There were hundreds of thousands or millions of God's people in Judah, and Israel. From our standards this is a puny count, and God thought so too as the "Kingdom at hand" is going to be put-off in order for the purpose of God to come about. They "stumbled" in order for us to hear.

Noah's story is a great encouragement to me, since I live and work in a "Gospel-resistant" country. However, I keep track of how many tracts I get out, for example, since my supporting churches have a right to know if I am being lazy and taking their support for naught. Is that type of counting sin? I think not.
It's common sense.
James, a man in the "Kingdom under Law" that will inherit the earth. We see in this section of Acts Paul will do anything to "gain the Jews", even come under the Law to gain them (I Corinthians 9:20), but we see God said nothing doing Paul; I will not let you go back under bondage of law for your love of your people that you had killed, beaten, whipped, and harassed. I will not let you make that blood sacrifice.

Christians do not do those laws and ordinances that are only for His people in their belief. God is going to get Paul to Rome to spread his gospel to the whole world whether Paul liked it or not.

We will have to agree to disagree on theology here. I believe Paul and James were on the same team in the church age.
For arguments sake I'll agree here with that terminology, for they both are of God. However before the teams come together, one "team" plays to enter A specific Kingdom, and the other plays entering The Kingdom, which that specific Kingdom will be in. It is no contest as Christ wins both, inherits that is.

Don't we find James is destined to be in the Kingdom that Jesus Christ gave to His earthly Apostle's, where the proselytes will serve the Jew? I do not believe the gospel of the circumcision, as my Apostle tells me Christ gave to him a gospel for me. That gospel speaks of me being in the Body of Christ in His Kingdom of Heaven, in which is housed the Apostle's Kingdom. Jesus tells His Apostles they may come and eat with Him at His Table, in His Kingdom, where we are.

ituttut
03-13-2007, 04:52 AM
Yeah, I apologize... that was mean...
I got too carried away...
sorry.I'm sure you'll get to tag me.

John of Japan
03-13-2007, 09:39 AM
Have not been able to locate scripture where God today speaks directly to all the Baptist churches, through their "Conventions", or otherwise. Are we of David, and of God's nation today, we Baptists?I notice injected twice the phrase "God commanded". Does God command today? Jesus Christ commanded two things, and today makes one request of us. God gave "commands" to His "covenant people", and I can find nowhere that he ever asked or desired the Gentile make "covenant with Him". We are offered the "gift".For what purpose is it necessary for us to count other than for "numbers" for our own benefit? It would be moronic not to do so, and that is what my church does.

I'm lost. I'm not sure what you are saying here except for the end part, counting numbers for our own benefit. God does command today through the Scriptures. I've said nothing about God speaking to all Baptist churches (other than as far as we follow Scripture). I'm not a member of any convention, and being here in Japan I don't know what they are saying back in the States.

Concerning counting, my whole purpose in what I have posted was to show that the statement "God is not concerned with numbers" is false. I think I have proved that, and that all churches and Christians are concerned with numbers in God's work one way or another.

I can find nowhere that He commanded us today to baptize for salvation. His last "great commission" to His Apostles and disciples were all of Israel, and it is a "Kingdom to come" they look for as it is their inheritance. Baptisms of the "great commission" were only done by the hands of those of His nation. You are correct in recognizing the possibility I don't believe the "great commission" was written for the Gentile's benefit, other than for a proselysation into the "Kingdom Church".

I absolutely agree that baptism is never, anywhere, for salvation.

Other than that, well, we will certainly have to agree to disagree here. I think. I'm still really not sure what you are saying. You appear to have different definitions for many things than I do (kingdom of God, etc.). You seem to be saying that the Great Commission was for the Jews and not us, but wait, maybe it is for us, too.

I believe that all five statements of the Great Commission were for us. I see no change in the age in Scripture between the Apostles and us in what we are to do for the Lord.

Your other statements wander further from the OP, so forgive me, but I'll let them slide.

God bless.

John

Mexdeaf
03-13-2007, 09:44 AM
As I read this thread, this thought came to mind-

"More hair-splitting!"

tinytim
03-13-2007, 09:46 AM
There are some things I've noticed/learned on this thread.
First of all, I want to thank all the PBs and ORBs for letting us know what goes on. I have always wondered how they worshipped.

I have noticed that our worship stems from our theology.
Of course the PBs aren't concerned about missions, or reaching people, why should they be? They don't believe it is our job to reach people. So therefore, that part of their Sunday Service doesn't exist.
But us ABCs, SBC, other IFBs, and others view that we have a command to reach people so it is an important part of our service.
IOWs, We worship according to our theology.

Next, I have a suspicion that when we get to Heaven, we will all realize we have missed some part of true worship. We are all fallen creatures here. And no branch of Baptists have the exclusive worship rights.

Next, God is a creative God that has given us a multitude of worship styles in which our personalities match. It would drive me crazy to worship like a PB. As I am sure it would them to worship like me.
Instead of cutting one another down, we need to recognize that God accepts all kinds of worship. And worship is based on our personal taste.

Finally, I have found the most important thing that links all of us together, whether we are PB, ORB, IFB, SBC, ABC, or anyother type of Baptist:

.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
FOOOOOOOOOD!!!
Praise God for lunches!!!

I Am Blessed 24
03-13-2007, 10:07 AM
You beat me to it, Tim!

I was going to say that the reason Baptists count people is so they will know how much food they need for the potlucks... :godisgood:

tinytim
03-13-2007, 10:13 AM
And all this time I thought it was the distinctives that defined what a Baptist is...

But folks, you have seen it here...
We can disagree over everything, but the one thing we all agree on is Food!
Food is both old fashioned and modern
They had food in 1611, and food today
Food is neither calvinistic nor freewill.... (unless that pig that died so that I have the ham sandwich I am about to eat was predestined for consumption by me?!)
I can sing bluegrass while eating, or CCm while eating....
Food stops arguments... (you have to keep your mouth closed while you eat)

Praise God for Food.
(can you tell I am on a diet?)

John of Japan
03-13-2007, 10:36 AM
As I read this thread, this thought came to mind-

"More hair-splitting!"
I just want you to know, Brother Mexdeaf: God knows the number of every hair we split! :laugh: :wavey:

tinytim
03-13-2007, 11:14 AM
As long as the hair (split ends or not) doesn't get into my food, I am happy!!!

Brother Bob
03-13-2007, 11:31 AM
Well Tim, my friend;
Its food alright, but its that Heavenly food that came down from Heaven that we all have in common by the name of "Jesus", and I don't think you are on a diet for that food. Blessings,

BBob

amity
03-13-2007, 11:39 AM
I have noticed that our worship stems from our theology.
Of course the PBs aren't concerned about missions, or reaching people, why should they be? They don't believe it is our job to reach people. So therefore, that part of their Sunday Service doesn't exist.
But us ABCs, SBC, other IFBs, and others view that we have a command to reach people so it is an important part of our service.
IOWs, We worship according to our theology. Tiny, I sort of agree with you, but realize that the "way we worship" stems from being baptist, i.e., non-liturgical. There has long been a specific baptist approach to worship services that today is most closely found among the old order baptists. I don't know exactly when things started to change for other baptists, I expect the first subtle changes began to occur around the time fo the U.S. civil war. I like to do historical research, and read about a few southern churches getting an organ around that time. The arguments made by members of the congregation against the organ were exactly what an old order baptist might say today. I suspect that the emphasis on productions, "specials" etc., came about in the 20th century under the influence of the entertainment industry. Really, I think we are just contrasting those who continued worshipping the way baptists traditionally worshipped with those who chose to modernize and drew their concepts for doing so from somewhere outside the baptist churches.

At any rate, like you said, each to his own interpretation on this. I really thought most people here would recognize what I am saying, because we already established that this is a generally conservative board and that most of us attend relatively small churches. I guess I just didn't realize how widespread a lot of the modern practice is. I expected most to agree with me!

tinytim
03-13-2007, 12:26 PM
Amity, welcome to Baptistboard... you are an official member...
lol!!!

I am also talking about the differences in worship styles amongst Baptists... Liturgies never crossed my mind.

As for most agreeing with you.... that is the other thing about Baptists... when you have 2 Baptists in a room, you have 10 different opinions.
We have all kinds of Baptists here.
Some from small churches, some from mega churches, some from conservative churches, some more liberal. We have missionaries, seminary professors, and everything else in between... (and this is just the Baptist section of the board.!!!, when you get to the other denominations section..... Who knows what we got... I only go there when I feel brave... it is a whole other world!!!)
One of my favorite posters, and she is an SBC preacher's wife, Tatertot even had a clown ministry at one point... and i doubt you could ever find a more spiritual lady than she.
One thing you will learn by being here longer is, that although we disagree on different things, most, if not all, loves Jesus with all their hearts!
And we will hold each other up in prayer... Just ask Brother Bob. I don't agree with him on everything. But when it comes to what really matters...Love... we both are there!
There are others here that wouldn't let me preach in their pulpits, and I wouldn't let them preach in mine, but we still love each other...
Pinoy is one of them... he is PB also. And of course we disagree over predestination. But I consider him a brother in Christ, the same as I consider you a sister in Christ.

It does get hot in here sometimes... but that is just the nature of BB.
When the fire dies down, we can still agree to disagree.
Now there have been some to come along that didn't learn this, and left too soon... they were immature, and had to have things their way. And they couldn't understand that just because someone differs with them, they are not a bad Christian.

And, Bob...all I can say about heavenly food is this.... BRING IT ON!!!!

Brother Bob
03-13-2007, 02:44 PM
Amy;
Bro. Bob, I've been to your website and you're a good singer!

God Bless

Thanks Ladies, you are special.

amity;
Yes, Brother Bob has a wonderful gift for singing. I would love to hear his gift for preaching one day.

rbell
03-13-2007, 02:53 PM
JOIN TODAY!!!!

the "Brother Bob Fan Club" only $19.95 per year!

If you call in the next five minutes, you will receive the "Brother Bob Unplugged" album. It's a must-have for your iPod!

Call 1-800-PREACH IT BOB

:laugh: :laugh:

Brother Bob
03-13-2007, 03:28 PM
thank you very much, thank you very much. :laugh: :laugh: :applause:



http://bestsmileys.com/music1/7.gif

Bro. James Reed
03-13-2007, 04:46 PM
thank you very much, thank you very much.



http://bestsmileys.com/music1/7.gif

I hope that chicken's not playing that instrument in the church, Brother Bob.:laugh:

rbell
03-13-2007, 05:02 PM
thank you very much, thank you very much. :laugh: :applause:



http://bestsmileys.com/music1/7.gif

Great. Primitive Baptists and Progressive Chickens. What next? :laugh:

Amy.G
03-13-2007, 05:22 PM
Great. Primitive Baptists and Progressive Chickens. What next? :laugh:
Progressively primitive Baptist Chickens.


:laugh: :1_grouphug:

Bro. James Reed
03-13-2007, 05:24 PM
Progressively primitive Baptist Chickens.


:laugh: :1_grouphug:

Wouldn't that be reverse evolution?

Let's form a committee to discuss it.:1_grouphug:

tinytim
03-13-2007, 05:27 PM
NOT a committeeeeee!!!!!

tinytim
03-13-2007, 05:31 PM
http://bestsmileys.com/tvshows/1.gif How's this for the committee?

Amy.G
03-13-2007, 05:32 PM
NOT a committeeeeee!!!!!
Oh yes! Who's bringing the reverse evoluted progressively primitive Baptist Fried Chicken?

That made my brain hurt!

tinytim
03-13-2007, 05:36 PM
Now your talkin!!!

LEt's fry that bird!!!!
little bit of mashed taters, cole slaw, rolls, carrot cake, mmmmmmmm....

When's our next church dinner...
Oh yeah, Sunrise service.

rbell
03-13-2007, 05:41 PM
NOT a committeeeeee!!!!!

Speaking of committees...It's an oversize photo, but check THIS (http://www.worth1000.com/emailthis.asp?entry=358329) out...

:laugh:

rbell
03-13-2007, 06:02 PM
http://a123.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/55/m_3bd74a44668d813eaadc4e0f09099da2.gif

And thanks to our superhero TinyTim and his sidekick Rbell, yet another contentious thread has been relegated to total irrelevance.

Join us next time for....

(insert annoying reverb)

The Adventures of TinyTim and RBell, the Thread Hijackers!

ituttut
03-13-2007, 06:02 PM
I'm lost. I'm not sure what you are saying here except for the end part, counting numbers for our own benefit. God does command today through the Scriptures. I've said nothing about God speaking to all Baptist churches (other than as far as we follow Scripture). I'm not a member of any convention, and being here in Japan I don't know what they are saying back in the States.

Concerning counting, my whole purpose in what I have posted was to show that the statement "God is not concerned with numbers" is false. I think I have proved that, and that all churches and Christians are concerned with numbers in God's work one way or another.
We are saying the same thing then, for I agree all churches are involved in numbers.
I can find nowhere that He commanded us today to baptize for salvation. His last "great commission" to His Apostles and disciples were all of Israel, and it is a "Kingdom to come" they look for as it is their inheritance. Baptisms of the "great commission" were only done by the hands of those of His nation. You are correct in recognizing the possibility I don't believe the "great commission" was written for the Gentile's benefit, other than for a proselysation into the "Kingdom Church".


I absolutely agree that baptism is never, anywhere, for salvation.
Completely agree.

Other than that, well, we will certainly have to agree to disagree here. I think. I'm still really not sure what you are saying. You appear to have different definitions for many things than I do (kingdom of God, etc.). You seem to be saying that the Great Commission was for the Jews and not us, but wait, maybe it is for us, too. The "great commission" may be for some today, which is a possibility. But where is the "rapture" found in the great commission?

This is the reason I see two (2) gospels, the reason I see two (2) foundations offered on the foundation of Jesus Christ, as the Bible shows us, and they are (will be) brought together. I choose not to be a proselyte to the "Kingdom Church", but to the "Body Church" faith in my freedom of choice. It looks to be we all have freedom of choice of where we wish to be in the "Kingdom of Heaven".
I believe that all five statements of the Great Commission were for us. I see no change in the age in Scripture between the Apostles and us in what we are to do for the Lord.
I find Damascus Road in my Bible.

Your other statements wander further from the OP, so forgive me, but I'll let them slide. Your choice. Forgive me as I now follow Him on to heaven, which is His purpose for me.

ituttut
03-13-2007, 06:09 PM
As I read this thread, this thought came to mind-

"More hair-splitting!"Rightly dividing as Paul calls it.

tinytim
03-13-2007, 06:13 PM
Is that the same as parting on the right or left?

Sorry... my last hi-jack I almost promise!!!

rbell
03-13-2007, 06:16 PM
Is that the same as parting on the right or left?

Sorry... my last hi-jack I almost promise!!!

Theological combover!

I made no such hijack promise (j/k)

ituttut
03-13-2007, 06:38 PM
Great. Primitive Baptists and Progressive Chickens. What next? :laugh:
We already have a "jolly chubby man, and bunny rabbits in our mist". Now "chickens"?

John of Japan
03-13-2007, 06:40 PM
As long as the hair (split ends or not) doesn't get into my food, I am happy!!!
Woman's hair, beautiful hair,
What words of praise I utter.
But oh, how sick it makes me feel,
To find it in the butter. http://bestsmileys.com/sick/9.gif :laugh:

ituttut
03-13-2007, 06:46 PM
Is that the same as parting on the right or left?

Sorry... my last hi-jack I almost promise!!!That's O. K. for our God is a God of division, and we always come back finding we are on the "other side" when those troubled waters come together.

Bro. James Reed
03-13-2007, 07:11 PM
We already have a "jolly chubby man, and bunny rabbits in our mist". Now "chickens"?

Hey now, I'm not that jolly!:laugh:

Mexdeaf
03-13-2007, 07:40 PM
Rightly dividing as Paul calls it.

Ahh, but he says, "rightly dividing (or handling) the word of truth."

:)

With the direction this thread is taking perhaps I should have called it "Hare-splitting." :laugh:

Mexdeaf
03-13-2007, 07:55 PM
Is that the same as parting on the right or left?

Sorry... my last hi-jack I almost promise!!!

I part mine in the middle.

Reminds me of an old joke- A lady goes to a photo shop and asks the technician to retouch a photo of her recently departed husband. She has a photograph of him wearing a hat, but she wants the retouch sans hat.

The tech says to her, "Madam, in order to do that I need to know what side of his head he parted his hair on."

The lady replies, "I don't remember. But you should be able to tell once you take his hat off." :laugh:

Thank you, thank you, you have been a great audience. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

ituttut
03-13-2007, 08:01 PM
Hey now, I'm not that jolly!:laugh:I thought you were. A man happy in the Lord.

ituttut
03-13-2007, 08:09 PM
Ahh, but he says, "rightly dividing (or handling) the word of truth."

You just quoted Paul to whom Christ from heaven revealed "truth" as we are to understand it today.

With the direction this thread is taking perhaps I should have called it "Hare-plitting."Time to eat. You and tinytim have driven me to the dinner table.

Mexdeaf
03-13-2007, 08:13 PM
Time to eat. You and tinytim have driven me to the dinner table.

¡Buen provecho!

Brother Bob
03-13-2007, 08:26 PM
Thump thump thump;

I am beating my chest to make sure you know I am a rooster. :)

ituttut
03-14-2007, 02:33 AM
¡Buen provecho!Thanks. Finding no better words "Bon Appetit"

rbell
03-14-2007, 04:39 AM
Thump thump thump;

I am beating my chest to make sure you know I am a rooster. :)

Bob, you are one fowl individual.

What'sa matter? Chicken?

http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/images/smilies/smiley_chicken.gif

Brother Bob
03-14-2007, 10:11 AM
Come here, chicky chicky!

http://bestsmileys.com/eating2/5.gif

Mexdeaf
03-14-2007, 10:32 AM
Come here, chicky chicky! http://bestsmileys.com/eating2/5.gif

Now that reminds me of another joke-

Salesman is driving down the road out in the country and he sees a chicken standing by the side of the road. Doesn't think too much of it until he notices that the chicken has started running alongside his car going 55 MPH. The guy steps on the gas and runs it up to 65 and the chicken keeps pace. He ramps it up to 75, chicken still there. Shortly thereafter, he comes to a farm lane and the chicken splits off and heads up the lane. Salesman slams on his brakes, makes a U-turn and follows the chicken up to a farm house.

When he arrives, what should he see but several chickens running around, all with THREE LEGS! Guy gets out of his car in bewilderment and as he does, the farmer walks up to him. Guy says, "I haven't ever seen a three-legged chicken before." To which the farmer replies, "Yup, we bred 'em speshul. See, m' wife, m' son n m'self all like the drumstick best of all."

Salesman says, "So how do they taste?"

Farmer says, "I dunno, we ain't been able to ketch one yet to find out."