Jerry Falwell Question?

[Rhetorician]

To all who have an ear:

I was reared in a nominal SBC context. I had a "Bob Jones Man" as a pastor. He baptized me, married my wife and I, and ordained me to the Gospel Ministry. I went on from there to become a "full-fledged" Southern Baptist. I was a Bus Pastor back in the 70s and went to the Hyles and Falwells for the "Super Conferences" and "Bus Conferences" et al.

I would like to pose a question to those of you who have been "the movement" (IFB movement) for a while.

What think ye of Jerry Falwell as he became in the last 20-30 years? He did end up being aligned with the SBC through the conservative Virginia Baptist Convention.

Has he given up his fundamentalism? Did he betray "the movement?" Did he mellow as most of us do as we get older?

I would like the comments to be truthful from your perspective. I would also like them to be very respectful of one who did much for the Kingdom of Christ and for America.

sdg!:thumbs:

rd

[npetreley]

He baptized me, married my wife and I

Isn't that polygamy? Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread...

[Salty]

I will give you a serious answer! :applause:
The question is did Jerry (and others) stray from fundamentalism, or did fundamentals become Ultra - Fundamentals Baptists (UFB)?

I would think its like that ole story where a wife after 30 years of marriage the woman looks and her husband and asks how they have grown so far apart. He says this is the spot I was sitting 30 years ago when you cuddled up to me. I haven't moved one bit.

I would like to consider myself as a fundamental, but please don't group me with those who are KJO, no long hair allowed,CCM is of the Devil ... It seems the UFB's just keep adding more and more rules

Salty

[John of Japan]

Hi, Rhet. :wavey:

Brother Falwell was a great man who did much good for the Lord. However, in my eyes (and those of many others) he lost his Fundamentalism (and senses!) when he decided to rescue Jim Bakker's ministry in 1987.

My mother would excoriate me for this view, though. She thinks Brother Jerry walked on water and clouds (as he now can!).

God bless.

John :type:

[tinytim]

I will give you a serious answer! :applause:
The question is did Jerry (and others) stray from fundamentalism, or did fundamentals become Ultra - Fundamentals Baptists (UFB)?

I would think its like that ole story where a wife after 30 years of marriage the woman looks and her husband and asks how they have grown so far apart. He says this is the spot I was sitting 30 years ago when you cuddled up to me. I haven't moved one bit.

I would like to consider myself as a fundamental, but please don't group me with those who are KJO, no long hair allowed,CCM is of the Devil ... It seems the UFB's just keep adding more and more rules

Salty

I am with you on this one...
This almost describes me to a T.

I never followed his ministry after the Jim Bakker incident.. (I was 17 at that time) But looking back, I see a lot of Grace coming from Falwell to Bakker that other Christians were not willing to give...

Personally, I grew up as a fundamentalist, but as the movement got more and more into onlyism, it moved away from me. I still hold to the fundamentals.. but like, Salty.. because of the stigma now associated with fundamentalism in the USA (onlyism... hyles... etc..) I don't want to be labeled that...

Call me a Christian.

[John of Japan]

I am with you on this one...
This almost describes me to a T.
Is that the T in tiny or the T in tim? :laugh:

I never followed his ministry after the Jim Bakker incident.. (I was 17 at that time) But looking back, I see a lot of Grace coming from Falwell to Bakker that other Christians were not willing to give...

Brother Falwell paid a huge price for the Bakker support. I read recently that his ministries almost went bankrupt after that because of the fallout and loss of support. I think it may have been good for Brother Falwell to offer personal help and counseling to Bakker, but what many objected to was not the grace extended personally to Bakker, but rescuing a ministry that seem to thrive on excess. I think Brother Falwell underestimated the fallout.

God bless!

[blackbird]

I attended several Pastor Conferences at FBC, Jacksonville over the years and would hear Bro. Jerry "Pitch" Liberty U from the pulpit-----I almost enrolled in hopes he'd meet his enrollment quota and get on to some good preachin'!!! But that was never the case!!!

IMHO---the dude never could preach---but he could sell bricks!!!!! Know what I mean????

[Rhetorician]

I attended several Pastor Conferences at FBC, Jacksonville over the years and would hear Bro. Jerry "Pitch" Liberty U from the pulpit-----I almost enrolled in hopes he'd meet his enrollment quota and get on to some good preachin'!!! But that was never the case!!!

IMHO---the dude never could preach---but he could sell bricks!!!!! Know
what I mean????

Brother Blackbird,

I am a little embarrassed at your reply!

May I admonish you just a bit?!

Your reply was off the OP.

And besides that, it was in a bit of poor taste was it not?! The Rev. Dr. Falwell is not even cold and in the grave yet. Please refer to the OP and feel free to answer that question with some dignity and respect for the man, his position, his legacy, and our Lovely Lord Jesus that he no doubt served and loved.

As one who was reared in a semi-fundamental and semi-SBC context; I should have known that it would be difficult to ask a question, when certain individuals do not understand the difference b/t criticism and a well thought-through critique.

After your response, I am really sorry and chagrined that I posted the question.


I remain fraternally yours!

sdg!:thumbs:

rd

[SaggyWoman]

I attended several Pastor Conferences at FBC, Jacksonville over the years and would hear Bro. Jerry "Pitch" Liberty U from the pulpit-----I almost enrolled in hopes he'd meet his enrollment quota and get on to some good preachin'!!! But that was never the case!!!

IMHO---the dude never could preach---but he could sell bricks!!!!! Know what I mean????

I have on occasion listened to his sermons on television. :laugh: You are right he couldn't preach worth nothing, but he could sell tens of millions of bricks. :tonofbricks:

[SaggyWoman]

How is bus ministry conferences a gear of fundamentalism???

[go2church]

Well who else is hosting bus ministry conferences but the fundamentalists?

Falwell was used like all of us, in spite of our faults. Being public, we got to know his faults a bit better then someone else. But for the most part I have cool view toward Falwell. Don't recommend his school, his preaching, revisionist history or his politics.

[Plain Old Bill]

I believe Bro. Falwell remained a fundamentalist to his last breath.As far as the Bakker thing goes if that were the only mistake I ever made I would think I did quite well. Bro. Jerry was a gracious man of God and a soft touch.I look forward to meeting him one day again in heaven.

I think we have found a useful term to describe the difference between true classic fundamentalists and the Ultra -legalist -fundamentalist-onlyist movement, UFO or ultra fundamentalist onlyist.:godisgood:

[TomVols]

I think the Reagan "I didn't leave the Democrats; they left me" applies here. As someone rightly pointed out on page 1, the UFBs give Fundamentalism a bad name.

[JamesBell]

He may have changed, I don't really know. As I got older the only way I had to keep in contact with his ministry was by following Liberty and what they were doing. Thomas Road's television broadcast was must watch TV for me as a child, and stayed that way until it was no longer on the air in the area I live.

From outward apperance, I would say he probably softened his views slightly to appeal to a larger audience but still always preached the cross and the need for a savior.

[Ed Edwards]

I believe Bro. Falwell remained a fundamentalist to his last breath. As far as the Bakker thing goes if that were the only mistake I ever made I would think I did quite well. Bro. Jerry was a gracious man of God and a soft touch. I look forward to meeting him one day again in heaven.

I think we have found a useful term to describe the difference between true classic fundamentalists and the Ultra -legalist -fundamentalist-onlyist movement, UFO or ultra fundamentalist onlyist.:godisgood:

Amen, Brother Plain Old Bill -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Check out the name of this thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=39754

It is: Mr. Fundamentalism Dies

[jshurley04]

I think the Reagan "I didn't leave the Democrats; they left me" applies here. As someone rightly pointed out on page 1, the UFBs give Fundamentalism a bad name.

This is actually a topic of converstion amoung some alumni of the college he graduated from, Baptist Bible College in Springfield, MO. I did not know but he used to be a part of the BBFI until something happened, maybe the PTL thing, I don't know, that caused them to basically tell Falwell not to come back. I always thought he sought the SBC association and it would seem that it may have been forced upon him. No matter what, I don't have a problem with the man or the ministry. I believe that he honored God in ALL that he did.

[Rhetorician]

Hey gang:

It is a bit off the OP that I started but it well worth the read. And guess where it was found? In the SBC Press!

Enjoy:

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25691

sdg!:thumbs:
rd

[John of Japan]

This is actually a topic of converstion amoung some alumni of the college he graduated from, Baptist Bible College in Springfield, MO. I did not know but he used to be a part of the BBFI until something happened, maybe the PTL thing, I don't know, that caused them to basically tell Falwell not to come back. I always thought he sought the SBC association and it would seem that it may have been forced upon him. No matter what, I don't have a problem with the man or the ministry. I believe that he honored God in ALL that he did.

In the interest of historical accuracy, I don't think the BBFI kicked him out. To the best of my knowledge the BBFI has no mechanism for kicking pastors out, since it is a pastors' fellowship and not a denomination. I may be wrong.

I believe Brother Falwell kept close ties with some in the BBFI even after he joined the SBC, in particular Dr. John Rawlings. (Now there's a fascinating preacher, one of the old-time BBF men, a real mover and shaker in the fellowship.)

[John of Japan]

Hey gang:

It is a bit off the OP that I started but it well worth the read. And guess where it was found? In the SBC Press!

Enjoy:

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25691

sdg!:thumbs:
rd
Excellent article. :thumbs:

[jshurley04]

In the interest of historical accuracy, I don't think the BBFI kicked him out. To the best of my knowledge the BBFI has no mechanism for kicking pastors out, since it is a pastors' fellowship and not a denomination. I may be wrong.

I believe Brother Falwell kept close ties with some in the BBFI even after he joined the SBC, in particular Dr. John Rawlings. (Now there's a fascinating preacher, one of the old-time BBF men, a real mover and shaker in the fellowship.)

I never said that Falwell was kicked out, I said that they told him, rather rudely if you ask me, not to come back and fellowship with them. You cannot be kicked out of something that you are not an offical member of. Since the BBFI does not have membership process, only show up and be active, they did not revoke any membership standing. They simply, and very wrongly IMHO did not want to associate with him any longer.

If I am not mistaken, he just quit coming to the fellowship meetings but still supported fellowship causes such as missionaries and the college. I personally think that what they did to Falwell should have been done to Sam Davidson in Oklahoma over what he actually did to the fellowship, but that is another story.

[Sly Fox]

I have my own strong feelings about Dr. Falwell and I admit I consider him an earthly hero of mine.

Until his last day, Jerry considered himself a strong fundamentalist. And I have yet to see any proof where he ever strayed from those strong convictions.

As for those that say Jerry couldn't preach, you just weren't around him much. He was one of the most amazing communicators I have ever witnessed no matter what the arena may be (religious, political, entertainment).

[John of Japan]

I never said that Falwell was kicked out, I said that they told him, rather rudely if you ask me, not to come back and fellowship with them. You cannot be kicked out of something that you are not an offical member of. Since the BBFI does not have membership process, only show up and be active, they did not revoke any membership standing. They simply, and very wrongly IMHO did not want to associate with him any longer.

If I am not mistaken, he just quit coming to the fellowship meetings but still supported fellowship causes such as missionaries and the college. I personally think that what they did to Falwell should have been done to Sam Davidson in Oklahoma over what he actually did to the fellowship, but that is another story.

You obviously know a lot more about this than I do! :smilewinkgrin:

[BillYoung]

I will give you a serious answer! :applause:
The question is did Jerry (and others) stray from fundamentalism, or did fundamentals become Ultra - Fundamentals Baptists (UFB)?

I would think its like that ole story where a wife after 30 years of marriage the woman looks and her husband and asks how they have grown so far apart. He says this is the spot I was sitting 30 years ago when you cuddled up to me. I haven't moved one bit.

I would like to consider myself as a fundamental, but please don't group me with those who are KJO, no long hair allowed,CCM is of the Devil ... It seems the UFB's just keep adding more and more rules

Salty


I feel that this is where I am at as well. In 1974 when I surrendered to the ministry, our Southern Baptist schools were not what I throught they should be. Always being in a conservative SB church,I had to go to an independent Baptist school to get my training.The schooling I recieved then is the same conservative training our SB schools put out today. I would say they moved away from him.

[John of Japan]

Gentlemen, please don't generalize. There are as many as 10,000 independent Baptist churches nowadays, with many different positions on separation among them.

[tinytim]

Gentlemen, please don't generalize. There are as many as 10,000 independent Baptist churches nowadays, with many different positions on separation among them.


That is the characteristic of being independant! :laugh: :laugh:

Also, even in the ABC-USA as I am, we have some UFOs as Salty has defined... and our denonmination is listed as one of the most liberal...

But our church and convention are conservative.

So John has something here about painting too broadly...
It is very hard to put labels on Baptist churches because each one is different...

Thank God for Autonomy...
When we lose autonomy, we quit being Baptist.
When a church can tell another church what to do, they are no longer Baptist.

[John of Japan]

That is the characteristic of being independant! :laugh: :laugh:

Also, even in the ABC-USA as I am, we have some UFOs as Salty has defined... and our denonmination is listed as one of the most liberal...

But our church and convention are conservative.

So John has something here about painting too broadly...
It is very hard to put labels on Baptist churches because each one is different...

Thank God for Autonomy...
When we lose autonomy, we quit being Baptist.
When a church can tell another church what to do, they are no longer Baptist.
Well said, Brother Tim! :thumbs:

[jshurley04]

You obviously know a lot more about this than I do! :smilewinkgrin:

No, No. I just got some information recently that cleared up some of my own misunderstandings. What I shared was simply what my understanding is of the whole situation. I was not there and must go by what I have been told by those who were.

[John of Japan]

No, No. I just got some information recently that cleared up some of my own misunderstandings. What I shared was simply what my understanding is of the whole situation. I was not there and must go by what I have been told by those who were.
That works for me. Since I am way over here across the ocean I'm out of touch in some ways. We witness of what we know, amen?

God bless.

[DeafPosttrib]

Early in his life, he was a truly STRONG independent fundamental baptist. His college was before named Liberty Baptist College, then later changed to Liberty University. Why? Because of accreditation for added degrees like, Ph.D, etc. But, it made looks much liberal now than before.

I was graduated from baptist college not time ago. Several deaf students were transfered from L.U. they told me, that college is much liberal and lower standards.

Also, Dr. Falwell was invloved with compromising with religions.

I know why, because he makes lot of money and pride.

Yesterday, I read in local newspaper(Detroit), the article mentioned of Falwell burial. He was buried at his mansion. That is misery.

Being fame and pride and wealthy mean nothing.

He focus on politicals and education too much rather than evangelical and gosepl of Jesus Christ. He likes to get the world pay attention to him. He received lot of popular from media than any baptist pastors except Dr. Hyles.

He did sued Flint Flynn of maginaze for millions of dollars. But, the court order send several of thousands dollars instead of million dollars.

Also, I read newspaper saying that ex-L.U. student was arrested during funeral for plan to put 5 bombs to threaten L.U. That was so fool.

I doubt that many L.U. studentds are actual saved. Only God knows.

We know that Yale, Havard, and other colleges were used as Christian colleges many years ago. Now, they are worldly college. I would not be surprise that L.U. would be worldly college one day. Sad.

I don't pay respect him for his testimony and fruit.

I truly respect Dr. Lee Roberson the mostly, because of his humble and truly loved the Lord for lost souls.

But. let God judge pastors. I am aware that all pastors shall received greater judgment than regular Christians in the judgment day. Because of many people are being lead by their leader.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[Ed Edwards]

Mat 7:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Iudge not, that ye be not iudged.
2 For with what iudgment ye iudge,
yee shall be iudged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you againe.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote
that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest
not the beame that is in thine owne eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother,
Let mee pull out the mote out of thine eye,
and beholde, a beame is in thine owne eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beame
out of thine owne eye: and then shalt
thou see clearely to cast out the mote
out of thy brothers eye.

[jilphn1022]

I want to say that I agree with Rhetorician who started this thread. Jerry Falwell used his life serving the Lord. Jerry was not perfect, but he loved and served the Lord. He was a public figure which caused his strengths and his weaknesses to be made known to all. Jerry and his wife have two sons who will be ministrying in the same church and same school which their dad had started many years ago. May we lift up Jerry's wife and children at this time in prayer as they begin their new roles without Jerry.

[Zenas]

While Jerry Falwell never abandoned his bedrock conservative beliefs, he became less outspoken on controversial issues later in life. A prime example is his statement following the 9/11 attacks to the effect that God has withdrawn his protection from America due to our immorality. After the public outcry, he softened his stance considerably. The Jerry Falwell of the 1980's would never have backed down from such a statement.

Falwell was also a public figure at the national level--a friend of presidents, senators and Supreme Court justices. As such he was constantly in association with Catholics, Jews and mainline Protestants. I believe this association with people far more liberal than he was moderated his views concerning other religious groups. Certainly his public statements about these groups became more moderate with the passing of time.

[Jim1999]

I grew up in the same era as did Jerry Falwell. I know a little about the changes we made in personal attacks on liberalism. Over time, we did not change our theology, but we did change our personal attacks and methods of reaching out. Perhaps we learned that rabid personal attacks alientated rather than reached those we disagreed with, and this looked like compromise to others.

I personally believe that Jerry remained faithful throughout, and I should like to share his testimony for the Lord throughout my life.

God bless his family and may this ministry continue to grow in His truth.

Cheers,

Jim

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Jim1999, Sir -- Preach it! :thumbs:




Edited to remove a stray 'c'???

[Conservative Christian]

I believe Bro. Falwell remained a fundamentalist to his last breath.As far as the Bakker thing goes if that were the only mistake I ever made I would think I did quite well. Bro. Jerry was a gracious man of God and a soft touch.I look forward to meeting him one day again in heaven.

I think we have found a useful term to describe the difference between true classic fundamentalists and the Ultra -legalist -fundamentalist-onlyist movement, UFO or ultra fundamentalist onlyist.

I disagree that Falwell was a fundamentalist to his last breath. In fact, I don't believe he was a fundamentalist after the 1960's.

As of the 1970's, I believe he was clearly in the evangelical camp, and stayed there until his death.

There are distinct differences between evangelicals and fundamentalists, though even many Christians confuse the two.

In person, in church and in the media, Falwell virtually always identified himself as an evangelical. The vast majority of his supporters also identified him as an evangelical. Most of his actions from the 70's on were those of an evangelical, not a fundamentalist.

As for your "UFO" remarks, what exact beliefs and practices constitute an "ultra fundamentalist onlyist"? Using the word "ultra" to describe a religious or political figure or organization is considered to be highly derogatory. It is used to describe people who harbor extremist views.

Please enlighten us as to what these "extreme" beliefs and practices are that the "UFO's" allegedly espouse.

I'm not personally offended by your remarks, because I'm a conservative evangelical. However, I'm wary of those who try to paint an entire segment of brother Christians as "ultras/extremists", without providing any documented examples of extreme beliefs and behavior.

[Conservative Christian]

To answer Rhetorician's original question as to what happened to Falwell in the last 30 years or so, I'd say Jerry moved from the fundamentalist camp squarely into the evangelical camp.

[rbell]

I disagree that Falwell was a fundamentalist to his last breath. In fact, I don't believe he was a fundamentalist after the 1960's.

As of the 1970's, I believe he was clearly in the evangelical camp, and stayed there until his death.

There are distinct differences between evangelicals and fundamentalists, though even many Christians confuse the two.

In person, in church and in the media, Falwell virtually always identified himself as an evangelical. The vast majority of his supporters also identified him as an evangelical. Most of his actions from the 70's on were those of an evangelical, not a fundamentalist.

As for your "UFO" remarks, what exact beliefs and practices constitute an "ultra fundamentalist onlyist"? Using the word "ultra" to describe a religious or political figure or organization is considered to be highly derogatory. It is used to describe people who harbor extremist views.

Please enlighten us as to what these "extreme" beliefs and practices are that the "UFO's" allegedly espouse.

I'm not personally offended by your remarks, because I'm a conservative evangelical. However, I'm wary of those who try to paint an entire segment of brother Christians as "ultras/extremists", without providing any documented examples of extreme beliefs and behavior.

Saltcity said it earlier...

I would like to consider myself as a fundamental, but please don't group me with those who are KJO, no long hair allowed, CCM is of the Devil ... It seems the UFB's just keep adding more and more rules...

I wouldn't even assert that it is those particular rules that make one an ultra-fundie (although those listed above are quite common)...but it's the long list of "extra regulations" and quite honestly, it seems that most all of those regulations are "hills to die on."

[Conservative Christian]

"Ultra" is defined as:

"extremist: (used of opinions and actions) far beyond the norm; "extremist political views"; "an ultra conservative""

The opinions and actions rbell mentioned clearly do NOT constitute extremism.

Extremism would be such things as advocating violence against an individual, group or property.

The use of terms like "ultra-fundies" to describe someone who insists on using the KJV etc., are completely inappropriate. "Ultra" is merely being used as an unwarranted personal and derogatory attack to discredit fundamentalists.

Baptist Board admins and mods should not allow it, unless the person(s) using the word can indeed identify genuinely extremist activity that a person or group are engaging in.

[Ed Edwards]

The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism:

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

The ultra-fundamentals:

1. Anti-Bible (KJBO = King James Bible Only)
2. Anti-education (AKA: pro-ignorance)
3. Anti-success
4. Anti-female
5. Anti-alien (Hate of gay-boys, racism, etc.)

Typical statements made by the ultra-fundamentalists:
(note that the world calls them "fundies"
and we real fundamentalists have to bear their
burden unjustly):

1. The KJB replaces the original language manuscripts as being God's word
2. Calling "seminary": "cemetery"
3. Jerry Falwell sold out to the Devil
4. mistreatment of women
5. Jews killed Christ

[mcdirector]

The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism:

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

The ultra-fundamentals:

1. Anti-Bible (KJBO = King James Bible Only)
2. Anti-education (AKA: pro-ignorance)
3. Anti-success
4. Anti-female
5. Anti-alien (Hate of gay-boys, racism, etc.)

Typical statements made by the ultra-fundamentalists:
(note that the world calls them "fundies"
and we real fundamentalists have to bear their
burden unjustly):

1. The KJB replaces the original language manuscripts as being God's word
2. Calling "seminary": "cemetery"
3. Jerry Falwell sold out to the Devil
4. mistreatment of women
5. Jews killed Christ

Thank you Ed! This is a wonderful differentiation!

[mcdirector]

I grew up in the same era as did Jerry Falwell. I know a little about the changes we made in personal attacks on liberalism. Over time, we did not change our theology, but we did change our personal attacks and methods of reaching out. Perhaps we learned that rabid personal attacks alientated rather than reached those we disagreed with, and this looked like compromise to others.

I personally believe that Jerry remained faithful throughout, and I should like to share his testimony for the Lord throughout my life.

God bless his family and may this ministry continue to grow in His truth.

Cheers,

Jim
Thank you Jim!

The older I get, the more I realize that I need to be ready to share my testimony with gentleness and respect. (Of course, I did read that in the Bible. It's just taken a long time for it to sink in ;) )

[dcorbett]

I want to say that I agree with Rhetorician who started this thread. Jerry Falwell used his life serving the Lord. Jerry was not perfect, but he loved and served the Lord. He was a public figure which caused his strengths and his weaknesses to be made known to all. Jerry and his wife have two sons who will be ministrying in the same church and same school which their dad had started many years ago. May we lift up Jerry's wife and children at this time in prayer as they begin their new roles without Jerry.

There was only one perfect man that ever walked this earth, and he was crucified.

I do believe that Bro Falwell drifted from fundamentalism, and I am enrolled in LU online. But that was his choice as a Baptist. There are many in this forum who have drifted from fundamentalism....I love TinyTim's statement about autonomy....yep, Baptists are a different sort. My Dad was a very hard core Southern Baptist. He would be better suited to IFB (as I am now) if he were still alive.

Preach Christ, crucified, risen and ascended....and preach Grace and Mercy....preach repentance and acceptance of salvation, preach once saved - always saved, and you are ok with me - the other points are personal, between you and God. (I watch movies, my former Pastor preached against them. There is doctrine and then there are preferences)

So I too look forward to meeting Bro Falwell in Heaven.

Debbie Mc :jesus:

[rbell]

"Ultra" is defined as:

"extremist: (used of opinions and actions) far beyond the norm; "extremist political views"; "an ultra conservative""

The opinions and actions rbell mentioned clearly do NOT constitute extremism.

Extremism would be such things as advocating violence against an individual, group or property.

The use of terms like "ultra-fundies" to describe someone who insists on using the KJV etc., are completely inappropriate. "Ultra" is merely being used as an unwarranted personal and derogatory attack to discredit fundamentalists.

Baptist Board admins and mods should not allow it, unless the person(s) using the word can indeed identify genuinely extremist activity that a person or group are engaging in.


"unwarranted personal and derogatory attack"??

please.

Well, then....just hit that yellow triangle in the top right corner of my posts. Show the mods all my attacks.

Be prepared to be covered in laugh-spittle.

[mcdirector]

"unwarranted personal and derogatory attack"??

please.

Well, then....just hit that yellow triangle in the top right corner of my posts. Show the mods all my attacks.

Be prepared to be covered in laugh-spittle.

Brother Bell,

I'm behind you all the way, but laugh-spittle? ewwwwwwww

Sister Griffin

[Conservative Christian]

The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism:

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

The ultra-fundamentals:

1. Anti-Bible (KJBO = King James Bible Only)
2. Anti-education (AKA: pro-ignorance)
3. Anti-success
4. Anti-female
5. Anti-alien (Hate of gay-boys, racism, etc.)

Typical statements made by the ultra-fundamentalists:
(note that the world calls them "fundies"
and we real fundamentalists have to bear their
burden unjustly):

1. The KJB replaces the original language manuscripts as being God's word
2. Calling "seminary": "cemetery"
3. Jerry Falwell sold out to the Devil
4. mistreatment of women
5. Jews killed Christ

Well, I am definitely NOT an "ultra-fundie" myself. In fact, I'm not even a fundamentalist, but rather an evangelical, even though I certainly hold to the five "good" fundamentals you mentioned above. Perhaps that makes me a hybrid of some sort? :laugh:

Could you name several of these "ultra-fundies"? Every Christian forum I go to, there seems to be a lot of people complaining about "all the ultra-fundies" giving "us" a bad name. Thus I presume there must be a lot of these "ultra-fundies" around.

I know secular liberals refer to the SBC as "ultra-fundie", even though they're not. So please point out some real ones to us.

Thanks.

[Ed Edwards]

A google search of these is interesting:

seminary cemetery -seminary's "King James Bible" "Jerry Falwell"

Please do your own research.
Thank you.

Recall i've been a Conservative, Baptist, Fundmantalist
and Christian Adult for 42 years.
I've been a Conservative, Baptist, and Fundmantalist
Christian for 55 years.

[Dan Todd]

My wife and I attended several "Super Conferences" at Thomas Road Baptist Church in the late 70's. For the most part, we enjoyed the preaching very much.

I too was upset with Jerry when he took over for Jim Bakker - and that move cost him a lot of followers. I also learned that if you were on his mailing list, you would get lots of mail from his many organizations. I recently sent for a DVD on the Divinci Code - and I am now back on the mailing list.

Falwell did much for the Lord during his lifetime. I believe that he will have to answer to the Lord for some of the things he did, but so will Billy Graham, and so will I.

Remember, if you don't do anything for the Lord - no one (except the Lord) will notice, and you'll not have anyone throwing stones at you (except the Lord).

Let's let the man rest in peace - and be thankful for the many good things he accomplished for the Lord.

[Ed Edwards]

... Let's let the man rest in peace - and be
thankful for the many good things he accomplished
for the Lord.

Amen, Brother Dan Todd -- Preach it!

[TCGreek]

Amen, Brother Dan Todd -- Preach it!

Amen:thumbs:

[Lacy Evans]

Recall i've been a Conservative, Baptist, Fundmantalist
and Christian Adult for 42 years.
I've been a Conservative, Baptist, and Fundmantalist
Christian for 55 years.

I've been . . . for 43 years.

I really should start actively honoring Bro Ed Edwards (and Brother Bob) more.

Hoary head and what not. Forgive me if I ever disrespected you my dear elder brother.


In Christ, Lacy

[Ed Edwards]

You are forgiven.

I'm 63 years old.
In a couple more months I'll be 64.

I'm in the top dozen geezers around here. :D

(if OLD geezer isn't totally redundant,
I'm a young geezer! )

[swaimj]

I was never a big fan of Jerry Falwell's during his life and have never been in his "orbit" (didn't attend his school, or his summer camp, or his conferences, etc.), but I think his legacy is mainly positive and certainly on historic consequence. Several random thoughts:

As a teen I used to see ads for Sword of the Lord conference and Soutwide Baptist Fellowship. Falwell often spoke at those conferences, though you'd have to consider that time the early and mid years of his ministry. In his later years he did not speak at those conferences for whatever reasons. As I think back on those conferences and the men who were there, I think that Falwell was a man of tremendous vision and I think that he was possibly the most personally gifted man of his generation. Most of the men who were at those conferences; men who were considered great at the time, will be lost to broader history because their ministries tended to fade in their later years (this did not happen to Falwell) or they became very narrow in their opinions and irrelevant (not a trait of Falwell).

I remember waking up on election day in 1980 and watching Good Morning America. The analyst/pollster who was being interviewed predicted that Ronald Reagan would win the election that day by a narrow popular vote and he attributed that narrow margin to the efforts of the Moral Majority. That pollsters "live" prognosis has stood the test of time in academia. Historians still give credit to the Moral Majority for that victory. What an accomplishment by Falwell! I believe in the sovereignty of God, but Jerry Falwell was certainly an instrument in God's hand to bring Reagan's victory about.

I often admired Falwell for going into the forums that he entered to speak up for Christian values. He appeared on many national shows such as Donahue and later was a guest several times on Politically Incorrect with Bill Mahr. Talk about going into the lion's den! Though he made some occasional gaffs which got much play in the media, he was a gracious though forthright guest on these shows.

Falwell had the personal ability to succeed in anything he endeavored. If he had gone into business, I really believe he would have become the richest man in the world. When the Moral Majority began, one prominent fundamentalist accused Falwell of being so ambitious that he would not stop until he became president of the US. I think that man really misunderstood Jerry Falwell. Falwell often said that to become president would be a step down for a pastor. He proved that he meant this because he remained a pastor and a pastor primarily to his last day.

Well done, Jerry!

[Bob Alkire]

Well written swaimj! Jerry's attitude caught me back in the 60's, his love of God and his love for the lost as well as the saved. In the 90's I saw his attitude had not changed. As many will tell you, he was fun to be around.

[Jkdbuck76]

....and you know how the media/pop-culture complex are:
Dr. Falwell builds a school and a church....and he'll be remembered
as the guy that took a pot shot at Tinky Winkie from the Teletubbies.


What a sick world we live in.

[Sopranette]

In another universe, he could have sold used cars by the truckload.

[swaimj]

As a used car salesman myself, I'm happy to be associated with him! :laugh:

[Sopranette]

I didn't mean it as an insult. I just meant, the man could probably sell ice cubes to an Eskimo.

Love,

Sopranette