Hall of Shame

[TexasSky]

I stumbled on this on line today.
Though I never followed any of these people, this really stunned me.

http://www.ondoctrine.com/00shame.htm

[IAD]

Interesting, though I don't really like the way it's written.

From the first paragraph... "the true leaders of righteousness"... I would've thought that the Author and Finisher of our faith would hold that title, not a guy running a website.

Also, the second paragraph... "Moral failure is always preceded by the embracing of a sense of personal pride, in which an individual considers themselves to be superior to others, and/or favored by God to the extent that they are no longer accountable morally, because of the duties or works that they perform, which they believe elevate them to a superior standing." The writer seems to know an awful lot about what's going on in the hearts, minds and lives of these people, and it apparently sure that every one of them sinned as part of a premeditated scheme to elevate their will above God's. There's no room here for someone who had been struggling with private sin in their minds to finally have a lapse in judgment and act out on their thoughts. Mind you, I'm not saying that such a situation is any better or worse than premeditated sin. Not at all. Just that this author acts like he knows a LOT about what got the folks on this list where they are.

I also see some names missing from his list. What about Amy Grant? Michael English? Bonnie Keen? Charles Stanley?

[webdog]

More "christian" gossip. Does anyone remember "ye who is without sin cast the first stone"? Why wasn't Saul, David, Mary Magdalene, Paul on that list?

[robycop3]

TS, it's best to VERIFY if the accusations against certain of these parties is true. About the only thing that can be easily verified is a criminal conviction. Since we usually don't know the truth about someone's divorce, it's best to not hold that against someone. It could be that the celebrity's spouse was the one committing adultery, and both Scripturally & under USA law, adultery is grounds for divorce.

As a staunch Freedom Reader, you know I hold Dr. Peter S. Ruckman in very low esteem. But that's because of what he SAYS & WRITES, not because of his divorces. I think his first 2 wives left him, and we don't know why, nor is it any of our business unless we're a close relative of any of the players involved. I would think the same of Ruckman had he never married, or if he'd had the same wife for 60 years.

[dianetavegia]

TexasSky, I'd never heard of many of those people but also notice most are listed for adultery, divorce and remarriage. graemlins/tear.gif

Following the links off that link shows heretical beliefs of some, news stories or t.v. shows where their adultery was discussed, etc. Divorce and remarried equals adultery except in the most extreme case (continued unrepentent adultery on the part of the spouse; lifestyle of adultery or incest and then dessertion and divorce by that spouse) so a second marriage, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc.... is inexcusable in a Christian leader.

[patrick]

Can all of these allagations be proved true? What was the cause of divorce? pre or post conversion.

Is divorce the unpardonable sin of the Baptist church? Where does grace fit in?

[dianetavegia]

Is divorce the unpardonable sin of the Baptist church? Do a search, Patrick. This has been discussed numerous times. You might look under 'husband of one wife', 'adultery', 'forgiveness', 'pastor versus preacher', etc.

[patrick]

Define husband of one wife. What is that verse really saying. Was it talking about polgamy? I can show you many God honoring men who have been divorced. I agree with you on the subject.

So Diane in your eyes Charles Stanley is a preacher and not a pastor? He has been divorced. Is he disqualified from his pulpit?

When I do a search on a topic this board will one the last places I will look. The Bible would be my 1st place.

[mioque]

Is this the moment where I point out that that list can be made a lot longer?

[TexasSky]

Patrick,

Please look at Christ's own words regarding divorce, and then ask God what you think "one wife" means.

Regarding why I posted the list, I think it serves as a very good reminder to us all that we need to follow God, not men.

[Jeffrey H]

Some folks on the list are well-documented, however....

I was troubled that there was no reference (with a few exceptions) to any evidence about the accusations. This list sours the integrity of the website.

[patrick]

I know what it is saying Sky. I am just pointing out what others say. I feel divorce is not the answer 90% of the time. We have made it to convient in America.

We take this to it's conclusion, my thoughts are simple. I know pastors who are divorced. It wasn't of their own choosing and the churches kept them. We are talking conservitive SBC churches and they are still pastoring. I have a friend who wife divorced him. He was totaly faithful to her. His church wanted to keep him. Are they wrong?

My thoughts are simple. I have had one wife and I am planning on keeping her till she realizes she got the short end of the stick.12 years ago was a great day in my life.

So in eyes because of Charles Stanley's divorce, is he unfit to pastor?

[TexasSky]

Patrick,

First regarding Charles Stanley - I think he should have kept his promise to step down. Stanley used to teach divorce was wrong - until it hit him. He taught to a national audience on multiple occasions that if divorced, a minister should step down from the pulpit. When asked about his own marriage, he affirmed that applied to him as well. Then - when it DID apply to him, the rules changed. God's word didn't.

So, you tell me, which was the correct teaching by Stanley?

Second - Look at your own phrasing, "I am planning on keeping her till she realizes she got the short end of the stick."

I know you said that in jest, but really look at it.

That spirit of acceptance or inevitability or "I can't change my partner" is one reason the divorce rate is rising so quickly. People have a fatalistic, "I can't stop them," view point, so they don't try as hard to stop it.

[Salamander]

Seems everyone forgets we are all made of the same flesh, but it doesn't go without saying, these men that are divorced and remarried are disqualified from the ministry, including those guilty of incest.

Meanwhile, we little ol' cast-away preachers still stand and trust God to keep us from these same sins.

Thank You LORD, for saving my soul, countless times from many sins.

[Salamander]

Oh, and since when did God make an exception that results in adultery by the remarriage to have precedence over His Institution of marriage?

Hint: He didn't.

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by patrick:
</font> Define husband of one wife. What is that verse really saying. Was it talking about polgamy? I can show you many God honoring men who have been divorced. I agree with you on the subject.</font> Husband of one wife is exactly what it says. God hates divorce and a divorced man cannot pastor nor be a deacon.

</font> So Diane in your eyes Charles Stanley is a preacher and not a pastor? He has been divorced. Is he disqualified from his pulpit?</font> I wouldn't attend his church, buy his books nor watch him on t.v. His church gave him a vote of confidence yet his own son has started another church. According to scripture, he can preach as an evangelist but not pastor. HOWEVER... his wife demanded the divorce and never claimed he'd done anything other than not pay enough attention to her and the kids. I heard no claims of adultery.

BTW... his church has started a satellite church in the 'neighborhood' in our poor little town where the houses go up to over $600,000. We have half empty churches and it makes ME wonder if the 'need' for this mission was because of the large tithes available. Just my wonderings and no proof of course....

</font> When I do a search on a topic this board will one the last places I will look. The Bible would be my 1st place.</font>Why? Because those of us who have debated this and are disliked for our stand against divorce grow tired of the same fights over and over for years and years. If you want to see what people on our board think, do a search or start a new thread but if you're anti divorce, expect to lose friends. God says no divorce.

Jesus said to forgive our brother 70 X's 7.

It's quite clear to me that divorce is not an option ... and we've been married 35 years this Oct.

[mioque]

"these men that are divorced and remarried are disqualified from the ministry, including those guilty of incest."
"
I'd say ESPECIALLY those guilty of incest, but that could be personal feeling more than Biblical orthodoxy.

[Ben W]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
I stumbled on this on line today.
Though I never followed any of these people, this really stunned me.

http://www.ondoctrine.com/00shame.htm Interesting Website Sky, What is sad is the names that could be added to it.

I was not aware of what is written about Kathryn Kuhlman there though, I am going to have to do a little research on that one.

[patrick]

You look at the issue of divorce in America, it is scary. The national average is huge. in my former youth group 95% of all my kids came from single parent homes.

Divorce is not answer!!! People need to realize, it is daeth to we part. Sky, my wife and myself decided early on in our relationship, we were in to the end.

however to put someone on a website called hall of shame they better have concrete proof. I have done things in my life that I wished I could have done over.

People are quick to point at others fault and not notice their own. Divorce is not the unpardonable sin. I feel, we need to look at from the perspective of grace. Should they still pastor? that is each to individual church. Ain't great to be Baptist

[patrick]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by patrick:
</font> Define husband of one wife. What is that verse really saying. Was it talking about polgamy? I can show you many God honoring men who have been divorced. I agree with you on the subject.</font>
Husband of one wife is exactly what it says. God hates divorce and a divorced man cannot pastor nor be a deacon.

</font> So Diane in your eyes Charles Stanley is a preacher and not a pastor? He has been divorced. Is he disqualified from his pulpit?</font>
I wouldn't attend his church, buy his books nor watch him on t.v. His church gave him a vote of confidence yet his own son has started another church. According to scripture, he can preach as an evangelist but not pastor. HOWEVER... his wife demanded the divorce and never claimed he'd done anything other than not pay enough attention to her and the kids. I heard no claims of adultery.

BTW... his church has started a satellite church in the 'neighborhood' in our poor little town where the houses go up to over $600,000. We have half empty churches and it makes ME wonder if the 'need' for this mission was because of the large tithes available. Just my wonderings and no proof of course....

</font> When I do a search on a topic this board will one the last places I will look. The Bible would be my 1st place.</font>Why? Because those of us who have debated this and are disliked for our stand against divorce grow tired of the same fights over and over for years and years. If you want to see what people on our board think, do a search or start a new thread but if you're anti divorce, expect to lose friends. God says no divorce.

Jesus said to forgive our brother 70 X's 7.

It's quite clear to me that divorce is not an option ... and we've been married 35 years this Oct. </font>[/QUOTE]Diane,

I am anti divorce. I don't believe in it. I think it is one of blights on today's families. Jesus did say if adultry was involved then divorce was an option? Right.

I think you have to look at why. One of my favourite teacher in Bible college was divorced. His wife left him at 20 years of marriage. She just grew tired of the life of a pastor's wife. He resigned, his pulpit. I resapect him from that.

Diane the main point of my 1st reply was to make sure the info was relaible. The polgamy stuff old NOBTS arguments, I had to endure.

Even if every word on the hall of shame web site is true, does that web site edify the Body. It gives us something to talk about. I have seen men's reputation ruined because of rumors and gossip and I hate to see others names run thru the mud. If all the info is verfied then it is a good warning. Some of those guys were dead. so does that help us today, in any way?

[TexasSky]

As I said earlier in the thread, I think that website serves as a reminder to us that we need to follow God, not men.

As to the accuracy - many of those stories made National News, with the men involved confessing. After people asked me about the accuracy, I did some quick internet searches on those I didn't already know about - and each of them are apparently documented in things like biographies, autobiographies or AP wire services.

[TexasSky]

Regarding the issues of divorce - the fact it is so rampant is one reason I think it is imperative that men of God step aside when they find themselves in that situation.

It is very difficult to teach a message of "do as I say, not as I do," and be taken seriously. If marriage IS important, and if our families DO matter second only to God, the church leaders need to set the example. We would tell a compulsive gambler or someone openly fornicating "its fine."

We treat divorce like, "it is something that happened to you." We often feel that way, because in the end, while we struggle to put a marriage together, and a spouse is struggling to pull it apart, it feels that way, but we need to ask ourselves, how did we get to the point of no return in the first place?

[patrick]

Is not Stanley, still the husband of one wife? As far as I know he nevere remarried. I am just wondering?

[TexasSky]

Patrick,

What should keep Stanley out of the pulpit, in my opinion, is the instruction to have his house in order.

[Songbird]

When I read that list I was saddened. I almost felt like one of the pharisees who stood with the stone ready to kill the adulteress--who was caught in the very act. It doesn't say (to my recollection) that she acted like she wanted to repent, but Jesus saw her and He forgave her and encouraged her to sin no more.

The folks listed I know are "high profile" Christians--simply meaning they are/have been in public leadership. But they are still human--no make that sinners saved by grace (I know not all, but most are). Yes the sins they committed were horrible and many people were hurt. But if they have repented (truly repented), we can no longer point fingers at them. We need to let them live their lives and let the Lord use them--not saying they need to be restored back into the pulpit. But God can salvage their lives. One thing I am careful about is harshly judging other Christians, b/c I don't want to find myself in that same sin (think Jimmy Swaggart in the Jim Bakker situation). And it's by God's grace that I have not found myself in some of their situations.

I'm not saying just to slap their wrist and let them back into the pulpit. There are consequences to sin. Sadly, some the men (and women) listed may have ruined the ministry God called them to. But I have to go back to repentence and forgiveness. God can use broken people.

Instead of reading that list and thinking, "how dare he/she" can we add those folks (still living of course, lol) to our prayer list.

Take care.

Linda