What is going on at M-Fuge

[Paladin]

Have anyone here seen this ... quiet distrubing

http://www.founders.org/blog/2005/08/guess-what-kids-learned-at-m-fuge.html

[TexasSky]

If it is accurate, its disturbing.

There seems to be some debate in the blog about the accuracy of the information though.

[James_Newman]

"The mind is the great enemy."
- Aleister Crowley, Magick, p.29

"The formalized beginning and end of the (satanic) ceremony acts as a dogmatic, anti- intellectual device... "
- The Satanic Bible

"The no-mind not thinks no-thoughts about nothings."
- Buddha

"There is no need, therefore to understand the language of the mantra, nor is there any need for mental speculation nor any intellectual adjustment for chanting the mahamantra. It is automatic coming from the spiritual platform.."
- A.C. Bhaktivedanta

[USN2Pulpit]

Before all of you actually buy into the so-called "evil SBC" theories, take this into account: I'm a veteran of many 'Fuge events, and I have never - read this: "NEVER" - heard of, witnessed, or been a part of anything even remotely close to what this article speaks of. And I was at a 'Fuge event during the year in question, when this was supposedly "scripted," or as the article somewhat misleadingly states, "from the lifeway outline that every M-fuge preacher must follow."

I know there are many who don't like the SBC for various reasons. If this was actually scripted, I'm shocked - but I'm happy that is was pulled from the curriculum. Leadership would have done the right thing to pull it - as we all know.

[ August 12, 2005, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: USN2Pulpit ]

[Joseph_Botwinick]

This is why I wrote an e-mail to M-Fuge and asked them if they knew anything about this. Sometimes, it is good to get both sides of the story first hand before we make a judgement. Why don't we wait a while and see if they happen to respond?

Joseph Botwinick

[USN2Pulpit]

good idea...

[JohnAMac]

There are some things in the report about the youth pastor that are in error, and I wonder if that is an indication of the credibility of the story, or just a lack of thoroughness in making sure the presentation is correct. The school in Charleston that hosts the M-Fuge event is Charleston Southern University, not Southern Charleston University. Others have pointed out that the youth pastor who made the original statement was not from South Carolina, but from Tennessee.

I don't see anything here that is particularly un-Christian or deliberately intended to lead the kids astray. The focus was maintained on God, not "a god". The word the kids were instructed to use was one that they chose themselves, and which they associated with a connection to God. It sounds similar to prayer sessions in Pentecostal or Charismatic circles, where the repetition of words is designed to "lead" one to "speak in tongues" or where there is an emphasis on coming to a point of being "slain" in the spirit.

Is there a suggestion here in the criticism that God couldn't or wouldn't get involved in prayers directed toward him, made by believers in Christ, because he didn't care for the method of prayer they were using?

As a side note, I accompanied our church youth to M-Fuge in Nashville on two occasions. It's not a bad program, though for our particular group, the tracks, Bible studies and worship times seemed geared at junior high kids and weren't as "age appropriate" for high school. I think the worship in particular missed the mark completely, and was way more focused on being entertaining and "fun" than on leading the congregation to a real encounter with God. I really did like the hands-on approach to missions, though several of my kids said they really didn't accomplish much during the week because of a lack of planning and preparation at the specific places where they went to work.

Last summer, we discovered "World Changers," which is an initiative of the North American Mission Board of the SBC. You don't have to be an SBC church to participate, at the construction projects, the mission work is an all day event, the preparation was remarkably organized and, at least at the places we have gone, the worship leaders did an outstanding job of leading the kids to genuine, Christ-centered worship of God.
The two years we have gone to it have had a lasting spiritual impact on our youth ministry, and on the whole church.

Although our church is not SBC, we do rely on materials published by Lifeway, and are involved in some events that the various SBC entities conduct. I've always felt that they were straighforward in their dealings, and I'm sure that if you ask for a response, the reply you get from Lifeway will be an honest one.

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
This is why I wrote an e-mail to M-Fuge and asked them if they knew anything about this. Sometimes, it is good to get both sides of the story first hand before we make a judgement. Why don't we wait a while and see if they happen to respond?

Joseph Botwinick Betcha don't get a response.

[USN2Pulpit]

Aaron, they'll respond, but it will take a long time (in my experience).

[blackbird]

I've glanced over the link Paladin provided-----awefully spooky sounding to me.

To be honest---I don't know how Centrifuge or MFuge "goes about" scheduling different preachers for their events---but I suppose if you line up a thousand preachers---you'll get a few "quacks" from out of the group.

[Marcia]

What is being described is being taught in some youth group gatherings, especially those associated with Youth Specialties. It's called Contemplative or Centering Prayer. It is based on techniques taught for Buddhist and Hindu meditation but was "christianized" by some Roman Catholic monks who brought into the Catholic Church first. In fact, one of the original teachers that was used included a monk who had become a Transcendental Meditation teacher. Then it got into the evangelical church via Richard Foster, Brennan Manning (though he's Catholic, he's popular with evangelicals)and others. Contemplative Prayer is neither contemplation nor prayer. I have an article on it my site:
http://cana.userworld.com/cana_ContemplativePrayer1.html

I also hear Thomas Keating, one of the 3 founders of this "movement" speak back in May when he was in this area. After his talk, I spoke with him personally and asked a few questions. He said some pretty startling things.

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I have actually been to two YS conferences and have never been introduced to what you are describing. I will have to do some more research and check into it...perhaps even ask them first hand and see if they respond.

Joseph Botwinick

[Paladin]

Here is an update on my op, from the youth minister who went to the camp director

http://jaredmoore.exaltchrist.com/

[Songbird]

My dh was one of the leaders from our church that took our youth on an M-Fuge Missions trip in Jacksonville, FL.

For the most part, he said it was great and it greatly impacted our youth.

2 things disturbed him a bit. Sometimes the worship music became more of rock concert. He actually called me one night during a worship service. He stood outide of the auditorium b/c he couldn't take the loud music. I heard on his cell! Now, I'm used to Contemporary Christian Music--but this was over the top. He also said he doesn't think worship involves pelvic thrusts.

Another thing was the cheer everyone did each morning b-4 going to the sites. The gist of it was, "Who's ya daddy?" The response from the kids was "JC." The kids from our church wanted to do that cheer in church when they presented their report. My dh lovingly and diplomatically explained that that cheer basically degraded our Lord and Savior. That seemed to settle it for the kids.

I love youth work and encourage everyone to go on at least one missions' trip. But we need to be ready to help our kids see what true worship and repect for our God is.

Take care.

Linda

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Paladin:
Here is an update on my op, from the youth minister who went to the camp director

http://jaredmoore.exaltchrist.com/ Jackson:
Not everything is of value, but I think exercise was intended to help students focus on the Lord in a way that is consistent with Scripture, even if it is not explicitly endorsed in Scripture.They're being "relevant." The funny thing is, they will demand that you provide an explicit passage against a practice before they deem it unbiblical.

Jackson:
I am not sure where your conviction that this is a pagan method of prayer comes from, but this was certainly not what the developers of the prayer experience came from. Perhaps in conversation with them you might be able to hear their hearts.They mean well, so it is good. In otherwords, don't judge their fruits, judge their hearts.

Moore:
The reality is that our hearts are irrelevant. What matters is what the Truth says.Boy, you're in trouble now, you bigoted, narrowminded, pharisaical legalist!

Jackson:
Lifeway DOES stand for Scripture alone. But as Henry Blackaby says in Experiencing God, God speaks through the Holy Spirit through the Bible, prayer, circumstances, and the church to reveal Himself, His purposes, and His ways.”In other words, we stand for Scripture alone, but we don't.

Unfortunately for you, Jared, the foundation for this was laid long ago in another area where the SBC laid down their arms, and that was in the so-called "Worship Wars." If you can be relevant and on the cutting edge by adopting the "youth cultures" of dress, jargon and styles of "their" music...

I noticed you described some of the styles and antics as over the line, but the line is a lot farther back now than our parents would have drawn it. The question is, where does God draw the line?

...then you can also in this style of meditation. They're one and the same, because music is a form of meditation. To battle this, you will have to do more than deal with this isolated incident. You can see that they simply greased the squeaky wheel in their replies to you. You'll have to battle the whole foundation and philosophy of modern youth ministry.

[Bro. Jeff]

Originally posted by USN2Pulpit:
Before all of you actually buy into the so-called "evil SBC" theories, take this into account: I'm a veteran of many 'Fuge events, and I have never - read this: "NEVER" - heard of, witnessed, or been a part of anything even remotely close to what this article speaks of. And I was at a 'Fuge event during the year in question, when this was supposedly "scripted," or as the article somewhat misleadingly states, "from the lifeway outline that every M-fuge preacher must follow."

I know there are many who don't like the SBC for various reasons. If this was actually scripted, I'm shocked - but I'm happy that is was pulled from the curriculum. Leadership would have done the right thing to pull it - as we all know. Man, how ignorant. Jared documented it well and thoroughly on his site. I've seen the hard copy of the letter he received from M-Fuge and the emails from Mohler and Nettles promising to "look in to this right away." (Written right before the national convention in Nashville.)

Just because it points out a failure of an SBC entity doesn't mean it's anti-SBC. Jared is, in fact, committed to reform in the SBC..

[crazylegs]

Guys,
I'm the guy who posted the original article. If you'll go to my website, you can see all that happened. Also, if you believe that this didn't happen, then why did Lifeway send out the letter apologizing and confirming that the prayer had been changed?

website- www.jaredmoore.exaltchrist.com (http://www.jaredmoore.exaltchrist.com)

[crazylegs]

Here is the exact website for the article.

http://jaredmoore.exaltchrist.com/?p=9

Please respond to it on there or on here if you have any questions.

In Him,

Jared H. Moore

[USN2Pulpit]

I'll not try to hard to defend myself - if this indeed happened, but I will stand by my admittedly anecdotal testimony: "I have never - read this: "NEVER" - heard of, witnessed, or been a part of anything even remotely close to what this article speaks of. And I was at a 'Fuge event during the year in question, when this was supposedly "scripted," or as the article somewhat misleadingly states, "from the lifeway outline that every M-fuge preacher must follow."

Further, it was the first Fuge event of the season. If it had been scripted for everybody, I would have seen it. I don't know about other Fuge events, but it did not take place at the one I went to.

Now if you think that's ignorant...first hand information that disputes the OP, you're entitled to your opinion. Being good at debate, I'm sure crazylegs can handle a discenting opinion.

That was my reasoning at the time of my post months ago, which Bro.Jeff quoted. (But I thought this thread died months ago.) Crazylegs, I won't dispute - this may have happened...but I have a hard time believing it was scripted for everybody - or I would have seen it.

[crazylegs]

USN2PULPIT,
I understand what you are saying. Let me add this though... this prayer only lasted the first 2-3 weeks of camp last year... because, after I and some other gentlemen wrote lifeway about it, they changed it. It was changed for the rest of the summer.

There was another youth pastor from Crossville, TN (The town I'm serving in) that went as well. He went to another "kind" of lifeway camp, and he experienced the same thing...

Would you like me to send you a .jpeg of the original curriculum that each pastor had to sign off on?

In Him,

Jared Moore

[Gold Dragon]

Centered/contemplative prayer is scary to many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians whose culture has been inculcated with modernist rational reductionist philosophy that glorifies the mind and is suspicious of anything mystical.

[crazylegs]

Gold Dragon,

Give me one Scripture verse that backs up centering prayer..... just one.

[Brother Ian]

All I can say is. . . .wow.

[USN2Pulpit]

Originally posted by crazylegs:
this prayer only lasted the first 2-3 weeks of camp last year...This is just what I'm trying to tell you...I was at the first week of camps, and it didn't happen at the camp we attended.

Let me be rightly understood: If this did happen a certain camps, I'm against it, and glad that it was changed. I also thank you for your efforts. I'm just saying it couldn't have been for every camp, or I would have seen it, too.

[crazylegs]

USN2Pulpit,
Your pastor possibly could have skimmed over it... or not done it... but, each pastor had to sign off on the curriculum... so, he was supposed to do it.

Here is the image of the paper that our camp pastor gave to me... the one that contains the "Centering Prayer"

-There are 3 links, but it's the same picture in each link.

http://s63.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0KR72Q89IDTB30I6Z08GX55LO7

http://s63.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0SLIDKLBRWPNU0BP48YTV1HS0W

http://s63.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1J0UZM8S6VACF14XLC9SMHCMI3

Let me know what you think.

In Him,

Jared Moore

[USN2Pulpit]

Thanks for providing the links. What I think is this: I don't like it, and I'm in agreement with you. If this was indeed mandatory curriculum for all camp pastors, thank God we had one who noted at the very least the confusion this would cause and elected (possibly to his detriment) not to do it.

[cojosh]

Very disturbing if it is true! Strange if not true!

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
Centered/contemplative prayer is scary to many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians whose culture has been inculcated with modernist rational reductionist philosophy that glorifies the mind and is suspicious of anything mystical. That's right as far as a truism goes. However, you must realize that the culture you're critiquing with heavily laden connotative terms was molded from a Jewish-Christian monotheism whereas the culture spawning centered/contemplative prayer was a pantheistic non-Christian culture. After all, our Lord God Jehovah is a rational Being. Throughout the OT, you will find repeated reminders that God acted in concrete, observable, and verifiable ways to reveal Himself to the Children of Israel as a real and rational God. The NT, as well, reveals God as a definite, rational Being who entered real space-time history. So, our whole western culture has centered on a real, rational God who interfaced with the affairs of men. There is a discernable difference between the rational western culture and the mystical eastern culture immersed in pantheism and spiritism. In post-modern parlance, you are pulling centered/contemplative prayer from other religious traditions, not Christianity. The current vogue of centered/contemplative prayer is simply an outgrowth of the post-modern infatuation with spiritualism. In other words, the centered/contemplative prayer fad is a post-modern cultural thing. I think that I’ll stick with traditional western culture. ;)

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
Centered/contemplative prayer is scary to many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians whose culture has been inculcated with modernist rational reductionist philosophy that glorifies the mind and is suspicious of anything mystical. That's right as far as a truism goes. However, you must realize that the culture you're critiquing with heavily laden connotative terms was molded from a Jewish-Christian monotheism whereas the culture spawning centered/contemplative prayer was a pantheistic non-Christian culture.</font>[/QUOTE]This is not a truism. While centered and contemplative prayer is similar in appearance to some eastern polytheistic or pantheistic cultural practices, western monotheistic Judeo-Christian culture has also produced western monotheistic mystical practices that has been rejected by western monotheistic rationalistic reductionists.

An fyi that I am not critiquing that culture since I am also a product of it. I am simply trying to hold up a mirror to myself.

Originally posted by paidagogos:
After all, our Lord God Jehovah is a rational Being. Throughout the OT, you will find repeated reminders that God acted in concrete, observable, and verifiable ways to reveal Himself to the Children of Israel as a real and rational God. The NT, as well, reveals God as a definite, rational Being who entered real space-time history. So, our whole western culture has centered on a real, rational God who interfaced with the affairs of men.Most definitely. God is a definite and rational being.

Originally posted by paidagogos:
There is a discernable difference between the rational western culture and the mystical eastern culture immersed in pantheism and spiritism. In post-modern parlance, you are pulling centered/contemplative prayer from other religious traditions, not Christianity. The current vogue of centered/contemplative prayer is simply an outgrowth of the post-modern infatuation with spiritualism. In other words, the centered/contemplative prayer fad is a post-modern cultural thing. I think that I’ll stick with traditional western culture. ;) I agree that centered and contemplative prayer is part of a greater postmodern cultural movement within the Christian church, something I feel is a movement in the right direction away from some of the influence of rational reductionistic philosophy that has inculcated western Christianity in both positive and negative ways.

I myself have not practiced and have not encouraged the practice of contemplative or centering prayer. But I do not oppose it simply because it is counter-cultural.

I recognize that many wise and spiritual evangelicals and fundamentalists disagree with me.

[ December 07, 2005, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Gold Dragon ]

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by paidagogos:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
[snipe]
I myself have not practiced and have not encouraged the practice of contemplative or centering prayer. But I do not oppose it simply because it is counter-cultural.

I recognize that many wise and spiritual evangelicals and fundamentalists disagree with me. I would not oppose it because it is counter-cultural. My roots are in counter-cultural Fundamentalism. I oppose completmplative or centering prayer because it is rooted in pantheism and mysticism--it is the product of another religious worldview. IMHO, Christians are not to borrow from other religious traditions.