Does God have control over the people who populate Heaven?

[billwald]

I can think of 3 possibilities:

1. God selects and determines in advance who is admitted to Heaven.

2. God selects some people in advance for Heaven and lets the rest choose for themself where they shall go wither on the basis of good works or "believing" or some secret combination of both.

3. God takes pot luck and takes people who pass the test (whatever it is) on their own - like the College Boards or a civil service exam with no veteran's preference.

[TaterTot]

Of course, God is sovereign and has control over all things. His will is never dependant on man's choice. However, I think you are making it harder than it is to go to heaven. Theres not a secret combination to have to get right. Its all by grace.

[rbell]

or 4...none of your answers got it right.

[Scarlett O.]

I agree with TaterTot and am voting with rbell. :1_grouphug:

[BobRyan]

I can think of 3 possibilities:

1. God selects and determines in advance who is admitted to Heaven.

2. God selects some people in advance for Heaven and lets the rest choose for themself where they shall go wither on the basis of good works or "believing" or some secret combination of both.

3. God takes pot luck and takes people who pass the test (whatever it is) on their own - like the College Boards or a civil service exam with no veteran's preference.

Actually there is only 2 choices

God either has a universe of pre-programmed robots or He created a free will universe.

In BOTH cases He has infinite knowledge and KNOWS the end from the beginning. (That is pretty confusing for Calvinists since they can not figure out how to BE God in a free will universe where God also knows the end from the beginning).

But the method God chose in that free will universe was to CONVICT ALL of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16) and to "die for our sins and NOT our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 and to "DRAW ALL " unto Him John 12:32.

I thought we ALL already knew that.

in Christ,

Bob

[hillclimber1]

BobRyan, I looked at your profile and see you are a SDA. What are you trusting in for salvation?

[Dustin]

I vote #1.

[Dustin]

Actually there is only 2 choices

God either has a universe of pre-programmed robots or He created a free will universe.

In BOTH cases He has infinite knowledge and KNOWS the end from the beginning. (That is pretty confusing for Calvinists since they can not figure out how to BE God in a free will universe where God also knows the end from the beginning).

But the method God chose in that free will universe was to CONVICT ALL of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16) and to "die for our sins and NOT our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 and to "DRAW ALL " unto Him John 12:32.

I thought we ALL already knew that.

in Christ,

Bob


Draw all of who?

[Dustin]

This video is quite instructive, using another famously misused verse.

The points in this video certainly apply to the verses Bob posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI)

God bless your studies.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

[BobRyan]

Draw all of who?

Draw all of 721 people?

Wrong sir. As much as Calvinism would insist on inserting a qualifier into John 12:32 -- it is unqualified "I will DRAW ALL" unto Me.

Sadly for the needs of Calvinism the text can not be edited and sufficiently downsized to meet the demands of Calvinism's doctrine on this point.

[BobRyan]

BobRyan, I looked at your profile and see you are a SDA. What are you trusting in for salvation?

Don't you mean "WHO" are you trusting in for salvation? :jesus:

Your profile says you are non-denom so I suppose this concept could be new for you. Please let me know if you would like futher explanation sir. I am happy to explain the Gospel in detail as long as there is a genuinely interested listener.:wavey:

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Since no one has posted a substantive rebuttal - I will offer this again -- just incase someone wants to debate it.

Actually there is only 2 choices

God either has a universe of pre-programmed robots or He created a free will universe.

In BOTH cases He has infinite knowledge and KNOWS the end from the beginning. (That is pretty confusing for Calvinists since they can not figure out how to BE God in a free will universe where God also knows the end from the beginning).

But the method God chose in that free will universe was to CONVICT ALL of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16) and to "die for our sins and NOT our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 and to "DRAW ALL " unto Him John 12:32.

I thought we ALL already knew that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dustin]

Draw all of 721 people?

Wrong sir. As much as Calvinism would insist on inserting a qualifier into John 12:32 -- it is unqualified "I will DRAW ALL" unto Me.

Sadly for the needs of Calvinism the text can not be edited and sufficiently downsized to meet the demands of Calvinism's doctrine on this point.


I guess you didn't watch the video.


Trust me, it's very instructive.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

[BobRyan]

Was it "instructive enough" for you to make a dotrinal point from scripture after having watched it or is the emotion of the moment that is provided in a video context more to the point??

Hint: all you had to do was state that in 2Pet 3:1 Calvinism needs to LIMIT salvation to the First cetury reader of Peter's letter AT THE TIME that it was written and it fallaciously contrasts that bogus idea with "universal salvation" as IF the only alternative to such a hollow position is universalism.

That -- without the music was the substance that you seem to be "not wanting to post yourself" in respect to the video. I don't blame you for not actually posting it sir. I wouldn't want my name on it either.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dustin]

Was it "instructive enough" for you to make a dotrinal point from scripture after having watched it or is the emotion of the moment that is provided in a video context more to the point??

Hint: all you had to do was state that in 2Pet 3:1 Calvinism needs to LIMIT salvation to the First cetury reader of Peter's letter AT THE TIME that it was written and it fallaciously contrasts that bogus idea with "universal salvation" as IF the only alternative to such a hollow position is universalism.

That -- without the music was the substance that you seem to be "not wanting to post yourself" in respect to the video. I don't blame you for not actually posting it sir. I wouldn't want my name on it either.

in Christ,

Bob


Bob, it's just like you posting your multi-colored models and such. The content of the video explains itself throughly. It is not a matter of me not wanting to post the whole thing, in my own "writing", but it was a matter of not having enough time to do so.

You wouldn't want your name on it because you're a flaming Arminian! I mean red hot! You attribute what the text says to the needs of the system of theology called Calvinism. Even though the intepretation is correct, according to the context, if Calvinism says it, it must be wrong! Come on, Bob, I thought you were a serious Bible student. Really look at what the text says, it's all right there, I promise.

If the points in the video (which I agree with) are wrong, then by all means, enlighten me. I would really like to see where I'm going wrong. I don't have any John Calvin posters in my house, I'm not out here like Spurgeon saying Calvinism is the Gospel. Prove to me from the Scriptures that what I believe is wrong. Don't just show me where you think Calvinism is wrong, show me where there is a common or preveniant grace, show me where the atonement is for every single man, woman, and child in the entire world.

I would really like it if you could do that.

Thank you.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

[donnA]

God either has a universe of pre-programmed robots or He created a free will universe.

In that case the only real choice here is that either God is in control or man is.

[billwald]

Thanks for the replies.

I suppose what baffles me most is the underlying question - why would God WANT to know everything?

A child learns tic-tac-toe. When he discovers that he knows the end of the game after the first move, he moves on to checkers.

[J.D.]

I would like to volunteer of my own free will to be God's robot! It's better than being Satan's bond-robot.

[rbell]

Thanks for the replies.

I suppose what baffles me most is the underlying question - why would God WANT to know everything?

A child learns tic-tac-toe. When he discovers that he knows the end of the game after the first move, he moves on to checkers.

"His ways are not our ways."

You describe boredom. Boredom stems from dissatisfaction at not being sufficiently pleased. God, being God, does not have this weakness.

But then again, "wanting to know everything" kinda screwed up life in Eden, eh?

[Scarlett O.]

"His ways are not our ways."

You describe boredom. Boredom stems from dissatisfaction at not being sufficiently pleased. God, being God, does not have this weakness.

:thumbs: :applause:

But then again, "wanting to know everything" kinda screwed up life in Eden, eh?

:laugh: :saint:

(I'm trying to be less wordy.)

[billwald]

Some say Heaven is a better place than Eden. Anyone on this list want to spend eternity in a child-like state pruning trees?

[rbell]

Some say Heaven is a better place than Eden. Anyone on this list want to spend eternity in a child-like state pruning trees?

Well Bill, you don't have to go if you don't want to...

[billwald]

You think Eden still exists someplace?

[rbell]

You think Eden still exists someplace?

Geographically, I don't know...but even if it's a place we can get to...the setting has been destroyed due to sin.

My original point was that our "wanting to know what God knows" (more like wanting to "be in charge") was what took Eden out of the picture.

Your statement,

Some say Heaven is a better place than Eden. Anyone on this list want to spend eternity in a child-like state pruning trees?

misses the mark IMO as to what the world before sin was like.

[BobRyan]

Some say Heaven is a better place than Eden. Anyone on this list want to spend eternity in a child-like state pruning trees?

#1. Some say EDEN is nothing more than Hominids surviving and evolving in a death-starvation-predation-extinction world -- and that mankind "FELL" from that paradise into what we have today.

Any rational being can easily see that what we have in first world countries is "paradise" compared to "the caves".

#2. Eden is not the dark domain of ignorance that you suppose sir. God walked with man - visibly in the cool of the evening. Man's first science teachers were Angels and God Himself. To SUPPOSE that a laborator that IS EARTH would have been "too simple" and that teachers that ARE God and the Angels "insuffiently challenging" is to go far down the wrong alley. (Hint the Discovery Channel recently completed a series on PLANET EARTH that shows a post-fall decaying world to STILL be absolutely astonishing from the standpoint of almost any kind of science, discovery, exploration)

Rather the LONG life recorded for mankind preflood and the GIANTS mentioned preflood show a phyiscal state far beyond ours and possibly equal to the task of being able to LEARN from such other-world intelligences as God Himself and His angels.

If one is to speculate about it - I would rather go a direction consistent with the tiny glimpses that we get into that preflood prefall world than imagine it in such nursery school terms.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

You think Eden still exists someplace?

The Bible says that God sent an Angel to guard the entrance to the Garden so that mankind could not enter for all those years prior to the flood. What a witness that must have been to preflood man - yet the greater the light the greater the sin in rejecting it.

A "hint" here is that God took the time to preserve and protect the Garden after the fall. If He remained consistent with his actions pre-post fall then it is not unthinkable that He has found a place to preserve it "still".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob, it's just like you posting your multi-colored models and such. The content of the video explains itself throughly. It is not a matter of me not wanting to post the whole thing, in my own "writing", but it was a matter of not having enough time to do so.

You wouldn't want your name on it because you're a flaming Arminian!...

If the points in the video (which I agree with) are wrong, then by all means, enlighten me.
Dustin

Saying that you do not agree with all points in the video then asking me to refute the video is not "Substance" sir.

If you have a doctrinal argument - feel free at some point to make it - instead of dishing out insults as though you had done something significant. Any child can kick someone next to him - try a productive substantive approach instead.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I would like to volunteer of my own free will to be God's robot! It's better than being Satan's bond-robot.

Arminians have always said that Calvinists choose that of their own free will.

Arminians also claim that God has predestined us to continually expose the doctrinal flaws in Calvinism for the benefit of both Calvinist and Arminian Christians world wide.

So -- apparently we have some form of agreement here.:laugh: :thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Thanks for the replies.

I suppose what baffles me most is the underlying question - why would God WANT to know everything?

A child learns tic-tac-toe. When he discovers that he knows the end of the game after the first move, he moves on to checkers.

It always comes back to "It is really TOUGH to BE God" doesn't it!

Only usually we don't get to that point so quickly in the A/C topic threads.

in Christ,

Bob