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righteousdude2
01-19-2008, 03:35 PM
I've always been against cremation [personally], but more of my friends and family are electing to be cremated, and I would like some Scriptural help in better understanding God's will and Word in regard to cremation of the body.

I'm sure that there are a lot of you who have an opinion, and I'd love to hear from you, preferably with Scripture enclosed.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

standingfirminChrist
01-19-2008, 03:46 PM
Many use Paul's statement 'Though I give my body to be burned...' (1 Cor. 13:3) and say that justifies cremation. I do not believe Paul was speaking about cremation here, but rather of persecution and martyrdom.

In the Old Testament, God's people were always buried. The heathen or pagan were burned.

This day and age the price of burial is so expensive, it makes it hard for people such as myself living on only 6024 dollars a year (I got a $12 increase the first of the year) to plan for burial. Cremations are generally under $700 depending on what the wishes are along with cremation, that many are opting for it as opposed to burial.

I do believe though, if one chooses to be burned, there may be some talking to by God, for Paul states 'if any destroy the temple, him will God destroy.' (1 Cor. 3:17)

Tough call, as I said.

From Way of Life Encyclopedia:

God's people have always practiced burial.
Abraham (Ge 25:8-10),
Sarah (Ge 23:1-4),
Rachel (Ge 35:19-20),
Isaac (Ge 35:29),
Jacob (Ge 49:33; 50:1-13),
Joseph (Ge 50:26),
Joshua (Jos 24:29-30),
Eleazar (Jos 24:33),
Samuel (1Sa 25:1),
David (1Ki 2:10),
John the Baptist (Mal 4:6),
Ananias and Sapphira (Ac 5:5-10),
Stephen (Ac 8:2).

In Ro 15:4 and 1Co 10:11 God tells us that we are to follow the Bible's examples as well as its direct instructions.

Even in difficult circumstances God's people in olden days practiced burial. For example, Joseph's body was kept for over 400 years in Egypt and then carried through the 40 years of wilderness wanderings before being buried in the Promised Land. We read of this in Ge 50:24-25; Ex 13:19 and Jos 24:32. How much simpler it would have been for the Israelites to have cremated Joseph, then carried his ashes with them in a tiny container! This they refused to do. Joseph, a follower of the one true God, a man who looked forward to the bodily resurrection, was given an honorable burial. From this important example, we learn that even if cremation is less expensive or easier than burial, it is still to be rejected, as the Israelites rejected the economical and simpler way to transport Joseph's body.

righteousdude2
01-19-2008, 03:55 PM
Many use Paul's statement 'Though I give my body to be burned...' and say that justifies cremation. I do not believe Paul was speaking about cremation here, but rather of persecution and martyrdom.

In the Old Testament, God's people were always buried. The heathen or pagan were burned.

This day and age the price of burial is so expensive, it makes it hard for people such as myself living on only 6024 dollars a year (I got a $12 increase the first of the year) to plan for burial. Cremations are generally under $700 depending on what the wishes are along with cremation, that many are opting for it as opposed to burial.

I do believe though, if one chooses to be burned, there may be some talking to by God, for Paul states 'if any destroy the body, him will God destroy.'

Tough call, as I said.
I had heard about the ancients being buried and the criminals being burned, and used that as my reasoning for burial. I am also leaning on being buried without being embalmed, which I believe is wrong too. Thanks for your answer and words of wisdom. I will be praying for your finances to allow you a proper burial, in accordance to your beliefs my brother.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

standingfirminChrist
01-19-2008, 04:04 PM
continued...

Contrast heathenism. They have no such knowledge or hope. The Hindus and Buddhists, for example, believe in reincarnation. Though they believe in a human soul which is distinct from the body, they do not believe that soul, once departed from the body at death, will be resurrected in any relation whatsoever to the first body. Rather they believe the soul will be reincarnated in another entirely unrelated body, or into a non-physical sphere of existence.

God's people have always buried their dead with this magnificent hope burning in their hearts. "We will see that brother or sister again in that same body, only changed, glorified!" Hallelujah! Only through the death and shed blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can we have this certain hope. He has taken upon Himself on the cross the punishment for our sins, carried our sins into the grave, and risen again in eternal triumph three days later. When an individual thoroughly acknowledges his sinfulness before God, repents of his sin, and receives Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior, the sin debt is paid, and eternal life and glory is promised from God the Father. Part of this heritage in Christ is the glorified resurrection body.

God practices burial (De 34:5-6).

Cremation is a sign of God's curse. Throughout the Bible the destruction of a human body or of an object by fire is used as a sign of divine wrath (Ex 32:20; Le 10:1-2; De 7:25; Nu 16:35; 2Ki 10:26; 1Ch 14:12; Ac 19:18-19; Re 20:15).

For a person not to have a proper burial was considered a dishonor (1Ki 21:23-24; Ps 83:9-10).

The Christian's body belongs to God. The body is not ours to destroy by fire or by any other means (Ro 14:8; 1Co 6:19-20).

God has plainly called cremation wickedness (Am 2:1).

The Lord Jesus Christ was buried, and He is our great example (Joh 19:38-42).

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ was buried in certainty that He would rise again on the third day according to the Scriptures, even so is the Christian said to rest at death. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, as the Apostle Paul testified (2Co 5:9 and Php 1:21-23). The body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26). The dead body sleeps in the grave while the redeemed soul waits in glory for the great resurrection day.

Of course we cannot force people either to bury or not to bury. And we know that the manner of one's burial does not affect one's salvation or resurrection, but we do believe these things are important, and we are convinced that Christians should take their stand upon the examples of the Word of God.

Brother Bob
01-19-2008, 04:13 PM
continued...

Contrast heathenism. They have no such knowledge or hope. The Hindus and Buddhists, for example, believe in reincarnation. Though they believe in a human soul which is distinct from the body, they do not believe that soul, once departed from the body at death, will be resurrected in any relation whatsoever to the first body. Rather they believe the soul will be reincarnated in another entirely unrelated body, or into a non-physical sphere of existence.

God's people have always buried their dead with this magnificent hope burning in their hearts. "We will see that brother or sister again in that same body, only changed, glorified!" Hallelujah! Only through the death and shed blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can we have this certain hope. He has taken upon Himself on the cross the punishment for our sins, carried our sins into the grave, and risen again in eternal triumph three days later. When an individual thoroughly acknowledges his sinfulness before God, repents of his sin, and receives Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior, the sin debt is paid, and eternal life and glory is promised from God the Father. Part of this heritage in Christ is the glorified resurrection body.

God practices burial (De 34:5-6).

Cremation is a sign of God's curse. Throughout the Bible the destruction of a human body or of an object by fire is used as a sign of divine wrath (Ex 32:20; Le 10:1-2; De 7:25; Nu 16:35; 2Ki 10:26; 1Ch 14:12; Ac 19:18-19; Re 20:15).

For a person not to have a proper burial was considered a dishonor (1Ki 21:23-24; Ps 83:9-10).

The Christian's body belongs to God. The body is not ours to destroy by fire or by any other means (Ro 14:8; 1Co 6:19-20).

God has plainly called cremation wickedness (Am 2:1).

The Lord Jesus Christ was buried, and He is our great example (Joh 19:38-42).

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ was buried in certainty that He would rise again on the third day according to the Scriptures, even so is the Christian said to rest at death. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, as the Apostle Paul testified (2Co 5:9 and Php 1:21-23). The body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26). The dead body sleeps in the grave while the redeemed soul waits in glory for the great resurrection day.

Of course we cannot force people either to bury or not to bury. And we know that the manner of one's burial does not affect one's salvation or resurrection, but we do believe these things are important, and we are convinced that Christians should take their stand upon the examples of the Word of God.
I have thought for years that I read a scripture where God was against burning the body, but I haven't been able to find it.
Does anyone know of a scripture directly against burning the body?

Yes, Sfic; I think Am 2:1 is it.

BBob,

standingfirminChrist
01-19-2008, 04:16 PM
I have thought for years that I read a scripture where God was against burning the body, but I haven't been able to find it.
Does anyone know of a scripture directly against burning the body?

BBob,
Amos 2:1 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:

Here is a clear case where a cremation took place and because of that God said He would not turn away from punishing Moab.

menageriekeeper
01-19-2008, 05:12 PM
Ya'll sure God was mad over the cremation and not the disrespect shown to the King of Edom?

Is there corresponding scripture that describes what was going on more specifically?

rbell
01-19-2008, 05:25 PM
Context would indicate to me that the problem wasn't cremation per se, but the rebellion.

I don't see where God has an issue with cremation. Being our "temporary residences" are "jars of clay," they are to be respected and treasured while we live....but when we die, they are not our homes anymore.

I could care less what is done with my body after I die. I'll be with God, praising Him. If it saves my family 3 grand, build a bonfire!

Having said that...if someone's conscience gives them pause, then take care of your conscience. I won't condemn anyone, anytime for desiring burial.

I've done funerals over caskets, and urns. The "body holder" isn't the issue, anyway.....

standingfirminChrist
01-19-2008, 05:59 PM
Ya'll sure God was mad over the cremation and not the disrespect shown to the King of Edom?

Is there corresponding scripture that describes what was going on more specifically?

Amos declares that there are four reasons God is pronouncing judgment and the burning of the bones is one of them. That is clearly shown there

The Scribe
01-20-2008, 01:00 AM
Is there scriptural allowance for cremation in the Old Testament? The answer is “No!” The universal law and practice of God’s people Israel was to bury the body, not burn it. Take Abraham, for example. As the “Father of the Faithful,” he chose to purchase a plot of ground for 400 shekels of silver as a place for burying his wife Sarah (Genesis 23:14). Why did he do that? Because it was the scriptural way to care for the dead. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all buried, as were the more than two million Israelites who died in the desert.

The Old Testament forbade the Jews from following the customs of their pagan neighbors, and specifically ordered them to bury dead bodies (Deut. 21:23). When Moses died, God buried him in Moab (Deut. 34:6). Since that is God’s method, should it not be ours? The Jewish commentary on the Law (The Mishna) denounced cremation as “an idolatrous practice.”

The only case of a body being burned in Israel is recorded in Joshua 7:15. Aachan and his family were stoned to death, and their bodies were ordered to be burned because of their horrible sin of rebellion against a holy God. Burning a body was a demonstration of God’s “fierce anger” in Bible days (Joshua 7:26). Should our remains be disgraced in this same way?

Amos 2 records the unpardonable sin of Moab, which was the burning of the bones of Edom’s king (v. 1). The result of that sin of cremation in the 8th century BC was a God-sent “fire upon Moab.” Burning has always been a demonstration of God’s wrath. It is therefore not a fitting practice at biblical funerals.
http://www.ras.org/discerner/1997oct-nov-dec.htm

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 01:42 AM
The BB has been through all of this. I'm not sure I feel like doing the whole schtick again, but I have to say a few things on the side of Japanese believers, who find it nearly legally impossible to get out of cremation.

(1) If cremation is morally wrong and God opposes it, then almost all Japanese Christians are sinning. I know of only one place for sure in the entire country where you can inter. A Japanese pastor offered me a spot there, but guess what. If I die in Hokkaido, there is no one to embalm me! On this whole huge island of Hokkaido there is no place to be interred and no embalmer!

(2) But I see no clear Scripture on the subject. Apologies to SFIC, but it just isn't there. The Scriptures you give are all subject to other interpretations. There are no Biblical commands not to cremate in the verses you gave, so it is not a sin to do so.

(3) If cremation is disrespectful to the temple of the Holy Spirit, how much more would embalming be? You take out the blood (which is the life) and put chemicals in its place.

(4) A godly Japanese Christian once told me he thought it was better to cremate than to leave the temple of the Holy Spirit to rot in the ground. He had a point! Actually, burning in cremation, and the body rotting in the ground are the same chemical process of oxidation. Burning is just faster.

(5) And about the idea that fire in the Bible is always judgment: what about the fiery chariot of Elijah, the tongues of fire at Pentecost, etc.?

edited in: (6) Concerning burial in the Bible, it was not interrment (digging a whole and burying the body in it). Bodies were put in caves as was the body of Jesus, Elisha and others. Remember the catacombs! So if we have to do it exactly like the Bible, everybody buy a cave!

saturneptune
01-20-2008, 01:47 AM
The BB has been through all of this. I'm not sure I feel like doing the whole schtick again, but I have to say a few things on the side of Japanese believers, who find it nearly legally impossible to get out of cremation.

(1) If cremation is morally wrong and God opposes it, then almost all Japanese Christians are sinning. I know of only one place for sure in the entire country where you can inter. A Japanese pastor offered me a spot there, but guess what. If I die in Hokkaido, there is no one to embalm me!

(2) But I see no clear Scripture on the subject. Apologies to SFIC, but it just isn't there. The Scriptures you give are all subject to other interpretations. There are no Biblical commands not to cremate in the verses you gave, so it is not a sin to do so.

(3) If cremation is disrespectful to the temple of the Holy Spirit, how much more would embalming be? You take out the blood (which is the life) and put chemicals in its place.

(4) A godly Japanese Christian once told me he thought it was better to cremate than to leave the temple of the Holy Spirit to rot in the ground. He had a point! Actually, burning in cremation, and the body rotting in the ground are the same chemical process of oxidation. Burning is just faster.

(5) And about the idea that fire in the Bible is always judgment: what about the fiery chariot of Elijah, the tongues of fire at Pentecost, etc.?
That is a very good post. It is good to see the perspective of how another culture feels about the subject.

I have always viewed arguments against cremation as putting too much emphasis on a dead human body, which does not make a bit of difference in eternity.

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 01:56 AM
That is a very good post. It is good to see the perspective of how another culture feels about the subject.

I have always viewed arguments against cremation as putting too much emphasis on a dead human body, which does not make a bit of difference in eternity.
Thanks for the compliment. It was from the heart out of love for my Japanese brothers and sisters in Christ, who have no choice!

I'm sure the Lord can sort us out at the resurrection however we are buried. And the Japanese Christians take good care of the ashes of their loved ones! Churches, including ours, usually have a grave where the ashes can be interred. Mr. U. in our church was brought to Christ through looking for a place to put his Christian wife's ashes! They now rest in our church grave. :saint:

standingfirminChrist
01-20-2008, 02:04 AM
How can one say the God is not against cremation when Amos 2:1 clearly shows He is?

Amos 2:1 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:

God will not turn away the punishment of Moab. Why? because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime.

He cremated the king of Edom and God was executing judgment on him for that purpose.

Cremation is a sign of God's curse. Throughout the Bible the destruction of a human body or of an object by fire is used as a sign of divine wrath (Ex 32:20; Le 10:1-2; De 7:25; Nu 16:35; 2Ki 10:26; 1Ch 14:12; Ac 19:18-19; Re 20:15).

Recall that Elijah's body was not destroyed by the chariot of fire.

Also recall that the cloven tongues on the day of Pentecost were not fire, but as of fire. Even given the benefit of the doubt, if we were to say it was fire, those in the upper room were not destroyed by them.

Look not on the fire that does not destroy and say that shows it is ok to cremate. Look at the verses that show the destruction of a body by fire was a sign of God's wrath. That, my friends, cannot be rightly refuted.

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 03:19 AM
How can one say the God is not against cremation when Amos 2:1 clearly shows He is?

Amos 2:1 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:

God will not turn away the punishment of Moab. Why? because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime.

He cremated the king of Edom and God was executing judgment on him for that purpose.
Your error here is going from the particular to the general. Just because Moab was punished doesn't mean everyone will be punished. You have no general command not to cremate, only a particular incident.

And you also have no proof that this was a cremation. This event is not recorded in Scripture, but according to Josephus he actually dug up the bones of the king of Edom and burned them for revenge. So it was not a cremation.


Cremation is a sign of God's curse. Throughout the Bible the destruction of a human body or of an object by fire is used as a sign of divine wrath (Ex 32:20; Le 10:1-2; De 7:25; Nu 16:35; 2Ki 10:26; 1Ch 14:12; Ac 19:18-19; Re 20:15).

Sigh. Do I have to answer all of these, friend?
1. There is no way to tie Ex. 32:20 to cremation. It is NOT cremation.

2. I agree that in Lev. 10:1-2 it was judgement. But if it was cremation, then it was God Who cremated them. But it was not cremation, it was judgment. This is not an argument for your position.

3. Deut. 7:25 once again is not cremation, it is destroying idols. Fire was the easiest way to do that.

And I am out of time--have to go to church.:type:

Deacon
01-20-2008, 06:09 AM
Rodney Decker [of Baptist Bible College and Seminary, Clark Summit, PA] wrote an good paper about the subject a while back, it covers most of the main points.

Is it Better to Bury or Burn, a Biblical Perspective on Burial and Cremation in Western Culture [LINK] (http://www.ntresources.com/documents/CremationLecturesHO5.pdf)

While it’s a well written and researched article, I disagree with him.
I believe cremation a culture thing.
Plenty of other customs can be examined as barbaric... embalming…(eehwwwwww), Viewing…. (ughhhhh).

Our family has a plot at a historic church in the area.
While I have a preference, I’ll let my wife choose the mode.
I told her to surprise me; I won’t complain.

Rob

mcdirector
01-20-2008, 07:38 AM
I told her to surprise me; I won’t complain.

Rob

Isn't that the truth.

-------------------------------------------

I don't see where God has an issue with cremation. Being our "temporary residences" are "jars of clay," they are to be respected and treasured while we live....but when we die, they are not our homes anymore.

(3) If cremation is disrespectful to the temple of the Holy Spirit, how much more would embalming be? You take out the blood (which is the life) and put chemicals in its place.

I have always viewed arguments against cremation as putting too much emphasis on a dead human body, which does not make a bit of difference in eternity.

This is the line I agree with. Our bodies are temporary, once we leave them, they are beside the point. I agree if someone were to do something malicious to them, that person may be held responsible for that action, but cremation is not a malicious action.

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 08:07 AM
It's late here in Japan, and our service for the Lord is over, spent among beloved Japanese Christians who have no real legal choice other than cremation. The wife is in bed alread and I will follow her after awhile. However, I wanted to add some research I did the last time this issue came up on the BB concerning the early church. There is no evidence whatsoever that the early Christians saw anything in the Bible to oppose cremation. The truth is, Christian oppostion to cremation is a modern invention. Have a look at what I wrote before:

I just looked in the index of my History of the Church by Eusebius (early 4th cent.). Nothing. I then did a computer search on my "Church Fathers" disk, and found 50 references to "burial" with only one telling how to do it. According to the apocryphal "Acts of Philip," Philip wanted to be buried in Syrian paper rather than linen like Christ. (By the way, in Japan we bury after cremation, so the term "burial" itself does not mean interment.)

The term "interment" occurs only 14 times in the Church Fathers, and none of those times mandate interment. Besides, none of these mentions were in the apostolic fathers (nor did the term "burial" occur in the apostolic fathers), meaning that no one in the early church had a thing to say about burial.

There is a mention of cremation in the Syriac translation of "The Apology of Aristedes the Philosopher" (125 A. D.) describing the customs of the Egyptians. However, a direct translation from the Greek gives "burnt as offerings" instead of "cremated." At any rate, Aristides did not condemn the practice, he only mentioned it. Now, if the Egyptians did cremate and God disapproved, we would expect to find mention of it in the Mosaic Law. We do not.

There is also a mention of Indian cremation in a pseudo-Clementine work, but it doesn't condemn it per se.

So, the idea that the Christian church has always practiced interment has no historical proof for at least the first 400-500 years after Christ.

In fact, I found opposite evidence in my search. The above mentioned Aristides said, "They also err who believe that fire is a God. For fire was made for the use of men, and it is controlled by them, being carried about from place to place for boiling and roasting all kinds of meat, and even for (the burning of) dead bodies. Moreover it is extinguished in many ways, being quenched through man’s agency. So it cannot be allowed that fire is a God, but it is a work of God." So this Christian philosopher thought fire was a gift of God which could be used in cremation.

In his last three chapters, Aristides describes Christian customs, but never discusses the mode of burial. So, how did the early Christians conduct funerals? They didn't tell us. So why should it matter?

standingfirminChrist
01-20-2008, 08:29 AM
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Furnace
Illustration: Blast Furnace
(1.) Chald. attun, a large furnace with a wide open mouth, at the top of which materials were cast in (Da 3:22-23; comp. Jer 29:22). This furnace would be in constant requisition, for the Babylonians disposed of their dead by cremation, as did also the Accadians who invaded Mesopotamia.

webdog
01-20-2008, 08:45 AM
I would like to be buried in like manner my Lord was...in the ground.

I used to lean towards cremation, but after seeing the origins of it (pagan), I would rather not go that route, not because it is scripturally condemned (or condoned), but just personal preference. Cremation services cost almost the same as burials now. The only place you save $ is in the burial site, and that is not even much.

Aaron
01-20-2008, 08:56 AM
Christian burial testifies of the hope of the Resurrection. Where I have a choice, I will choose burial for that same testimony.

saturneptune
01-20-2008, 09:28 AM
Christian burial testifies of the hope of the Resurrection. Where I have a choice, I will choose burial for that same testimony.
Yes, I agree. This subject really burns me up.

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 10:01 AM
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Yes, the Chaldeans may have practiced cremation and other ancient peoples. It is said that the Egyptians also did. If God then meant to forbid it to His people who He had just taken out of Egypt, why did He not specifically forbid it in the Law of Moses? God specifically set out many, many detailed laws for the Jewish people in the Five Books of Moses, including everything from what the priests should wear to how to handle a house with leprosy to whether one should or should not eat a rabbit. But nowhere did God forbid cremation in the Law of Moses, the place where it would have made the most sense to the Jews to forbid it.

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 10:05 AM
Christian burial testifies of the hope of the Resurrection. Where I have a choice, I will choose burial for that same testimony.How would interment in the ground specifically be a better testimony of the resurrection? I believe God can resurrect me from ashes just as well as from a rotted body in the ground.

Why not, let's just all be buried like Jesus was in a cave, not embalmed, but anointed with good-smelling-stuff and wrapped in a cloth, and then we'll all be fine, right? :smilewinkgrin:

Magnetic Poles
01-20-2008, 11:50 AM
I think burial is more horrific than cremation. The "pristine, prepared" body doesn't stay that way long. Bodies liquify into a goo from internal bacteria and decay, and maggots get in your eyes, mouth, and any other openings. I know it won't matter to me at that point, but being consumed by a fire seems a lot less icky.

Brother Bob
01-20-2008, 01:37 PM
How would interment in the ground specifically be a better testimony of the resurrection? I believe God can resurrect me from ashes just as well as from a rotted body in the ground.

Why not, let's just all be buried like Jesus was in a cave, not embalmed, but anointed with good-smelling-stuff and wrapped in a cloth, and then we'll all be fine, right? :smilewinkgrin:
Suits me............... but not creamation.

BBob,

rbell
01-20-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm worried that this thread will get buried under other stuff, and become a dead thread.

That burns me up.



















:D

The Scribe
01-20-2008, 02:21 PM
If you read my comment on the first page you will see cremated is against God and His scriptures. Also, embalming, I won't be cremated or embalmed when I die.

Jewish law does not allow embalming.
According to Jewish tradition, the body, having contained a Godly soul, is sacred and should not be tampered with in any way. Instead, we are commanded to return it to its creator as is (and as quickly as possible).

Embalming is a very intrusive process which involves removing and the disposal (!) of the blood and other bodily fluids.

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=284&o=18678

rbell
01-20-2008, 02:38 PM
Scribe....

Be aware that embalming (to my knowledge) isn't required (yet) by any state, but transporting a body across some state lines does make it a requirement.

Just FYI.

BTW...I disagree with your assertion. I think that burial practices in Scripture were descriptive, not prescriptive. I'm especially comfortable with that position in light of how the NT describes our bodies ("Jars of clay," "temporary," etc.)

The Scribe
01-20-2008, 02:45 PM
Rbell, the scriptures are clear what we are to do after death.

You can disagree if you want to.

But, I won't be cremated or embalmed when I die.
My living will, will state what to do with my body after my death.

standingfirminChrist
01-20-2008, 02:54 PM
Scribe....

Be aware that embalming (to my knowledge) isn't required (yet) by any state, but transporting a body across some state lines does make it a requirement.

Just FYI.

BTW...I disagree with your assertion. I think that burial practices in Scripture were descriptive, not prescriptive. I'm especially comfortable with that position in light of how the NT describes our bodies ("Jars of clay," "temporary," etc.)
Even so, the Scripture declares if any man defile the temple (body) him will God destroy.

Is not cremation defiling it? Is it not man doing the cremation?

Someone stated earlier that whether cremated or buried, it is all the same. Not so; for in burial, the body decays naturally, in cremation it does not.

Some may argue and say the body is not the temple, but the building is the temple. Not so; for in the epistle to the Church at Corinth, we read:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The Church... to them which are sanctified. It is this same epistle that Paul states 'if any man defile the temple, him will God destroy.' It is speaking of defiling the body.

SBCPreacher
01-20-2008, 02:56 PM
I do not believe that being cremated will disqualify me for heaven. If that were the case, then it disqualifies everyone who was burned to death in a house fire, etc.

I do not believe that the God who created me will be hard pressed to come up with my glorified body if I'm cremated. He's God, you know. He can do what ever He wants!

Besides, my wife will need what little insurance $$ I have much more than a fine, air-tight box and a 3X6 peace of high-priced real estate.

tinytim
01-20-2008, 02:59 PM
(1) If cremation is morally wrong and God opposes it, then almost all Japanese Christians are sinning.

I snorted my drink up my nose when I read this...:laugh:
And this really sums up this thread...

Who is sinning if I am creamated?

Me? Heck no, I will be in Heaven!!!
How can God hold me responsible for something after I am dead?

Me: Wow, isn't Heaven beautiful!!
God: It sure is, I created it for you
Me: Thank you It is lovely

A messenger comes over and talks to God privately...

God: Tim..I have some bad news...
Me: You can't have bad news this is Heaven
God: Your wife played a practical joke on you... She had your body creamated, and since it is a sin to creamate your body, You are on your way to Hell.. You have 3 minutes to get to the elevator...

Me NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!

Wife on earth:... :laugh: I told him I would win in the end!!!

standingfirminChrist
01-20-2008, 03:04 PM
God would not do that, Tim. You can stop sweating profusely.

You cannot cremate yourself after you are dead (unless you have the fire set to start by a timer).

But, if someone cremates you, they will be the one's responsible for defiling the temple, not you.

SBCPreacher
01-20-2008, 03:05 PM
Tim,

That's great! I couldn't have said it better myself!! Thanks!

rbell
01-20-2008, 03:24 PM
Even so, the Scripture declares if any man defile the temple (body) him will God destroy.

Is not cremation defiling it? Is it not man doing the cremation?

Someone stated earlier that whether cremated or buried, it is all the same. Not so; for in burial, the body decays naturally, in cremation it does not.

Some may argue and say the body is not the temple, but the building is the temple. Not so; for in the epistle to the Church at Corinth, we read:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The Church... to them which are sanctified. It is this same epistle that Paul states 'if any man defile the temple, him will God destroy.' It is speaking of defiling the body.

You're making the assumption that cremation is defiling the body. That's an incorrect assumption, IMO. Circular reasoning. You can't just go in and on your own decide to define defiling the body. And, contextually, I don't think that Scripture defines cremating as such.

Furthermore...you're not insinuating that God will "disqualify someone from heaven" if they have a relative cremated, are you? 'Cause if you are....that's way off base.

Once again...cremation isn't a hill I'll die on (no pun intended)....but I also would be disturbed if other Christians choose to die on that hill (once again, no pun intended...but it is kinda funny!).

Ivon Denosovich
01-20-2008, 03:50 PM
I like the thought of cremation because it enables one to keep the remains of the deceased near.

rbell
01-20-2008, 03:58 PM
I like the thought of cremation because it enables one to keep the remains of the deceased near.

I like it because...

You can spill the urn under the bed, and no one will know.
(if you're a youth minister) you can end up being used in a youth skit. Try THAT with a casket!:laugh:

standingfirminChrist
01-20-2008, 04:09 PM
A young man was saddened by the death of his wife and had her cremated.

He carried her urn everywhere he went for several months. One day he met another woman and they married. She felt very uncomfortable with the ashes of his first wife in the home and at her insisting, he carried the urn to his office and left it there.

As time went on the love for his first wife dwindled and one day in his office he was looking for an ashtray to flick the ashes from his cigar in. Seeing none, he opened the urn and thought, 'They're all ashes, so I am doing no harm."

This became a habit over several weeks.

One day his second wife came to visit the office. Upon seeing the open urn on his desk she thought he must have scattered the ashes and looked in... only to find the man's first wife was first there and had put on a little weight!:laugh:

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 07:03 PM
I like it because...

You can spill the urn under the bed, and no one will know.
(if you're a youth minister) you can end up being used in a youth skit. Try THAT with a casket!:laugh:
Down in Tokyo there is a commuter train that makes a big circle around the whole city. Occasionally someone leaves an unloved relative's ashes on that train to go round and round until the train heads in for the night! :laugh:

mcdirector
01-20-2008, 07:06 PM
A young man was saddened by the death of his wife and had her cremated.

He carried her urn everywhere he went for several months. One day he met another woman and they married. She felt very uncomfortable with the ashes of his first wife in the home and at her insisting, he carried the urn to his office and left it there.

As time went on the love for his first wife dwindled and one day in his office he was looking for an ashtray to flick the ashes from his cigar in. Seeing none, he opened the urn and thought, 'They're all ashes, so I am doing no harm."

This became a habit over several weeks.

One day his second wife came to visit the office. Upon seeing the open urn on his desk she thought he must have scattered the ashes and looked in... only to find the man's first wife was first there and had put on a little weight!:laugh:

*groan*

I've always told Ron I wanted to be cremated and left on the mantle so his next wife would have to dust me ;)

Magnetic Poles
01-20-2008, 07:21 PM
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Brother Bob
01-20-2008, 08:06 PM
I've mentioned this before, but this seems an appropriate time to bring up LifeGems! Click Here (http://www.lifegems.com)
I told my wife to put me in a block of clear plastic with my eyes open..........:)

BBob,

rbell
01-20-2008, 08:17 PM
This young musician went on a pilgrimage--to Europe, to see everything associated with the Great Masters of music.

After much looking, he found the grave of Ludwig Von Beethoven. Upon arriving, he heard a faint noise. He leaned closer to the grave, and recognized Beethoven's Ninth Symphony....being played backwards! He listened, spellbound. Pretty soon, he heard Beethoven's Fifth...also being played backwards!

He was amazed. Frantically he looked around to find someone who could explain this. Finally he found a groundskeeper:

He asked, "Is this Beethoven's grave?"
The groundskeeper answered, "Of course it is."

"Well, why am I hearing his music, backwards?"

"Don't you know anything?" replied the groundskeeper. "Beethoven's decomposing."

Aaron
01-20-2008, 08:54 PM
How would interment in the ground specifically be a better testimony of the resurrection?

I didn't say simply interment in the ground, I said Christian burial. It's all symbolic, like baptism and the Lord's supper. And no, I'm not saying it's a sacrament. I'm saying it symbolizes the hope of the Resurrection, and if I have a choice, I will choose Christain burial.

The Scribe
01-20-2008, 10:17 PM
For those who are worried about an expensive funeral.

Here are cheap caskets. :thumbs:

Cheap caskets (http://www.casketsite.com/price/600to1200.htm)

standingfirminChrist
01-20-2008, 10:33 PM
Scribe,

Thanx for the link. I went to the site and just out of curiosity, I clicked the urn section.

There, I found this urn...


http://www.urnwholesaler.com/Family%20Funeral%20&%20Cremation%20Center3_files/100190.jpg
That's right... windchimes urns.

I can just hear it now...

"Your wife sure is playing lovely music today.":laugh:

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 10:40 PM
I snorted my drink up my nose when I read this...:laugh:
And this really sums up this thread...
I'm glad I wasn't drinking something when I read about you reading this thread while drinking something! http://bestsmileys.com/drinking/3.gif

The Scribe
01-20-2008, 10:43 PM
Scribe,

Thanx for the link. I went to the site and just out of curiosity, I clicked the urn section.

There, I found this urn...


http://www.urnwholesaler.com/Family%20Funeral%20&%20Cremation%20Center3_files/100190.jpg
That's right... windchimes urns.

I can just hear it now...

"Your wife sure is playing lovely music today.":laugh:

You're welcome. ;)

The Triton brown casket would be good and it's cheap.

Windchime urn!? What's next an Ipod urn? Iurn...:laugh:

John of Japan
01-20-2008, 10:44 PM
I didn't say simply interment in the ground, I said Christian burial. It's all symbolic, like baptism and the Lord's supper. And no, I'm not saying it's a sacrament. I'm saying it symbolizes the hope of the Resurrection, and if I have a choice, I will choose Christain burial.
Okay, I'll buy that. I just asked because most Americans seem to believe "burial" means "interment."

Japanese have a word for interment, but if you ask where their cremated loved ones are they "put them in the grave," often underground--they bury them. :type:

Sopranette
01-21-2008, 05:34 AM
"creamation"...lol! Sort of like cream of corn.

Hmmm...if I can't have a tomb, I'd like DH to take me to a good taxidermist and have me posed in the living room wearing my wedding dress. :smilewinkgrin:

love,

Sopranette

John of Japan
01-21-2008, 06:53 AM
"creamation"...lol! Sort of like cream of corn.

Hmmm...if I can't have a tomb, I'd like DH to take me to a good taxidermist and have me posed in the living room wearing my wedding dress. :smilewinkgrin:

love,

SopranetteVery good! And here I was thinking there were only three ways to bury: interment, cremation, a cave--but now taxidermy. Of course! I laughed out loud. :laugh:

Karen
01-21-2008, 07:20 AM
Should the Lord tarry, most of you on this thread are going to be buried, not cremated.
I used to work for a cemetery. Most people do not make concrete plans in advance for what happens at their funeral or afterwards. They might make some flippant comments about how their family can use the money more than on a fancy casket. But nothing in writing.
But it is such an emotional time for the family. They see the funeral as the last thing they can do for the person on earth. And they want the person to be remembered appropriately according to local customs.

You almost never, never see cremation occurring in this part of the US with a young person who has died and the parents are in charge of arrangements. Cremation is something they think about rather lightly for themselves, not something they actually do to someone else's body, especially a child's. If you see cremation in this part of the US, someone has died very suddenly and the family has no money at all, or the person is elderly and has it in writing, or is Episcopalian and wants an urn niche in the nice garden at the church.

Planning ahead, putting it in writing, and taking the stress off your family in making some of the decisions is a very good thing. Have an official will at the attorney's office as well as with your executor, not in the safety deposit box. With that will have a written list of instructions and preferences on all of these matters.

DeafPosttrib
01-21-2008, 07:22 AM
Today, you notice many funeral services, coffins, find place for burial, everything alll are so expensive. More people cannot afford for that. More people prefer cremation over burial because of less expensive.

I do not against cremation.

Because all of us, our body shall return to dust.

We as Christians all know that all dead Christians' body shall be resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:51-51-57 give the wonderful passage of our promise of hope about our body. There will be no more death again.

I believe when Jesus comes, dead Christians' soul will return to their dead body, and their dead body will be formed again into alive and new body, become immortal.

I am not worry about my body. Because I have hope in Christ and the resurrection as 1 Cor. 15:51-57 promise us.

For me, I don't care either cremation or burial, I prefer with my body. I know in the hope that my body will become into immortal and alive again because Christ was the firstfruit of the resurrection. If Christ were not risne, then our hope is vain. Thank God that Christ were actual rosen from teh death, He gaves us the hope of eternal life.

Seven years ago, my uncle commited suicide by shot in his head. My mother's bothers and sisters made decision with unlce's body, that his body became into cremation. Because it was shocked and last minute without expecting. And we know funeral's everything all are so expensive costs. So, there is no choice, but choice cremation to save money.

That why, more people prefer cremation over burial, because of more less expensive.

There is much gray or flaw in the Bible mentioned on cremation.

I do not consider that cremation is sin. Because, today the cost of funeral are so HIGH and expensive than ever before. That why, many people cannot afford it, so, instead, they choose cremation to save money.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

standingfirminChrist
01-21-2008, 09:24 AM
"creamation"...lol! Sort of like cream of corn.

Hmmm...if I can't have a tomb, I'd like DH to take me to a good taxidermist and have me posed in the living room wearing my wedding dress. :smilewinkgrin:

love,

Sopranette
I have a recording of a prank phone call where a taxidermist was called (he was not home, but his wife was). His wife was asked about stuffing the caller's 93 year old grandmother. Wanted her standing in his dining room (if I recall) with a pot in one hand and an ear of corn in another). Absolutely hilarious.

Karen
01-21-2008, 09:38 AM
.............More people prefer cremation over burial because of less expensive.
...............Seven years ago, my uncle commited suicide by shot in his head. My mother's bothers and sisters made decision with unlce's body, that his body became into cremation. Because it was shocked and last minute without expecting. And we know funeral's everything all are so expensive costs. So, there is no choice, but choice cremation to save money.............I do not consider that cremation is sin. Because, today the cost of funeral are so HIGH and expensive than ever before. That why, many people cannot afford it, so, instead, they choose cremation to save money.
...............

Yes, your experience lines up exactly with my comments on having worked for a cemetery. Grown brothers and sisters feeling overwhelmed by the expense of a traditional funeral, when the person has died unexpectedly, leaving them to handle the financial part. Now if one of those people had a young child die, it would be exceptionally rare around here for them to care about the expense. Even if they were financially straitened, they would have a traditional burial somehow.

Fascinating thing about this thread. People make funny comments about themselves or about someone who is very elderly. People do not make such comments about their spouses or children. Once again, ties in with what I observed in my job. In spite of the jokes, a number of you will probably make different decisions when you are actually faced with it.
Once again, have some serious plans made and ease some future stress.
(I'm not picking on you, SFIC. Jokes are fine, I'm just making a general point.)

standingfirminChrist
01-21-2008, 09:59 AM
no offense taken, Karen.

God put in all of us a heart that should be merry once in a while. I am not always a joking person. When I preach, I am very serious about the Word of God. In the 8 years I pastored, I could probably count on my fingers (only once each finger) the number of jokes I told from the pulpit.

Here in this thread, I was just amused going to the casket site from the link provided and looking at urns and seeing the windchimes urn. I could not resist the little quip about one's wife playing music beautifully. If it offended, please forgive me. I did not mean to offend.

And then reading Sopranette's post concerning the taxidermy brought to mind the recording I have. I had to share that. Again if it offended, please forgive me. I did not mean to offend.

I agree, many do not know what avenue they will take at the time a loved one has passed. At that time people do not think clearly... even the best of us.

My stance is burial for God's people, but as DeafPostTrib said, burial expenses are very expensive.

I could start saving up for a proper burial, but with only 30 or 40 dollars a month left after my bills are paid, and the need for groceries, I don't see even the expense being met.

But the Word does say 'But my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.'

Friend of God
01-21-2008, 10:29 AM
I've read this entire thread with interest [and a few chuckles-thanks Tim].

I spent over 31 years as a Funeral Director and I can truthfully say that this was one of the more informative and truthful discussions I've seen on this subject.

Usually discussions on subjects like this are started out of curiosity, and fueled by emotion.

I used to think that people who chose cremation were doing so because is [usually] less expensive and more economical. I've come to the conclusion that some people just prefer the idea of cremation and would still choose it whatever the price.

Yes, cremation can be as expensive as burial if you add in the charge for viewing for cremation following a service, which whould require the purchase of a casket, and the professional services of the Funeral Director for the service selected.

Immediate cremation on the other hand is generally less expensive because there is no viewing. The family would still incur charges if they want a memorial service. Charges would be made by the cemetery for the interment of cremated remains.

To stay with the op....Yes I am going to be cremated. It is my personal preference.