PDA

View Full Version : This would disqualify a man from being a pastor


Salty
10-29-2009, 03:27 PM
There has been some discussion about the qualifications of a pastor. So I have come up with this poll...

Disqualification is based on (your interpretation of) scripture

Note: you may vote as many items as you deem necessary

Salty

PS, opps, forgot to indicate "none of the above" if that is the case, that just select "other" and indicate "NOTA"

Dr. Bob
10-29-2009, 03:38 PM
I opted for felony, since his reputation/report both in and out of the church would be shot. And felony doesn't disappear like some stigmas after years of living a good life; it is there for your entire life. No public office, no voting, no hunting, etc.

In MOST cases of sexual sin (adultery/fornication/incest) whether it led to a divorce or not would also disqualify. But divorce per se, perhaps because the wife left him, would not permanently disqualify. For a while for sure, but after 10-20 years . . .

We have a fellow on another forum who was a pastor, had a full-blown adultery and lies and cover-up for nearly a year, was caught and fled to another state (without any apology) to "heal", and friends think after a year or two he should pastor again.

I cannot imagine loosing such a "pastor" on ANY congregation. Very sad.

Revmitchell
10-29-2009, 03:40 PM
I cannot take part in the poll because of the lack of clarity. whatever can be prove to be past and repented is not a disqualifier.

Dr. Bob
10-29-2009, 03:45 PM
But the very FIRST qualification/description of an elder is "above reproach" (within the congregation). Later it is "of good report" (by the unsaved community).

A man might sin and repent and be right with God and STILL be disqualified for a time because of these (nothing to do with forgiveness and repentance).

One side has a list and says if Pastor does xyz he is disqualified
Other side has a list and says even if Pastor does xyz, if he repents he is NOT disqualified

BOTH sides need to see the testimony/reputation of the Lord and His Church is at stake. When an elder sins, he is held to a high standard by the church and even by the world.

Interesting thread already!

Havensdad
10-29-2009, 03:47 PM
I voted for only "Having his marriage annulled", because there is no such thing, and because this is the only instance in which the Pastor is said to be the instigator of the divorce. A man who post salvation effected a divorce (rather than his wife leaving him) would also be disqualified.

Since a believer is "not bound" by a departing unbeliever, marrying a divorced person would not disqualify the man from pastor. Nor would a pre salvation felony: many of the first century pastors and preachers were pre salvation felons! Paul was a murderer. His reputation was horrible.

Revmitchell
10-29-2009, 03:53 PM
But the very FIRST qualification/description of an elder is "above reproach" (within the congregation). Later it is "of good report" (by the unsaved community).

A man might sin and repent and be right with God and STILL be disqualified for a time because of these (nothing to do with forgiveness and repentance).

One side has a list and says if Pastor does xyz he is disqualified
Other side has a list and says even if Pastor does xyz, if he repents he is NOT disqualified

BOTH sides need to see the testimony/reputation of the Lord and His Church is at stake. When an elder sins, he is held to a high standard by the church and even by the world.

Interesting thread already!

I disagree with your definition of "above reproach" it is intended to mean does the man have anything of which a current charge can be brought against. What brings a reproach on the church is the apparent lack of forgiveness we so often see. The lost consistently ask "where is the forgiveness?" and such ideologies push people away from the church under both a reproach and out of fear that they will never be forgiven.

I would also add that we need to include in this conversation those sins that are pre-conversion.

Johnv
10-29-2009, 04:34 PM
I concur with Revmitchell here. Paul was once a murderer, and he became an apostle (I don't buy the claim that he wasn't a pastor).

I knew a man who was once a hardcore criminal, ended up in prison, and repented compeltely. He's now a pastor who has a prison ministry, bringing lots of criminals to Christ. The man is not more excluded from the pastorate than Paul.

Revmitchell
10-29-2009, 04:47 PM
I do not hold to the notion that Paul was a pastor in any sense of the word but I also do not hold to the notion that a pastor was held to a "higher" standard than he was.

Crabtownboy
10-29-2009, 04:57 PM
I do not feel we can make a blanket rule on so little information on a person. Each case must be taken into consideration and the facts of that particular case carefully examined.

Mexdeaf
10-29-2009, 05:13 PM
Where's the box for "Taking soap and shampoo from a motel room?"

Jim1999
10-29-2009, 05:22 PM
Sometimes I wonder how anyone became a pastor.

We had a man in our organization in Canada, who cared for his ailing wife to her dying day...and that took many years.

After she died, this pastor had an affair with his long time secretary (she was single). He confessed his sin to his church. His church then invited the Fellowship to form a council and advise on the situation. Knowing the man, his work and his life, we advised the church and the pastor that he sit out for a few months and then make a decision about future ministry. In other words, allow the incident to fade away. At the church's insistence, the pastor returned to ministry and eventually retired from ministry after pastoring that church for another fifteen years. The church grew and expanded under his ministry, and yes, he did marry his secretary.

I think decisions require more than a list of requirements. I think common sense should also prevail.

We gain nothing by self-righteous judgement and the destruction of an individual for one indiscretion.

Cheers,

Jim

Dr. Bob
10-29-2009, 07:25 PM
Have an adulterous affair, then wait a few months and hope everyone forgets it and the incident blows over.

Jim, in our US circles if ifbX'ers, it's called "sweeping it under the rug".

Salty
10-29-2009, 07:55 PM
Actually, I was going to put that in, but the poll only allows 10 choices. I know a poll, where you can get more choices, if interested, Mex, send me a pm

Salty
10-29-2009, 07:58 PM
Jim, in our US circles if ifbX'ers, it's called "sweeping it under the rug".

Dr Bob,

My good friends, Lee and Cindy Condran wrote and recorded a song entilted "Sweep Our Sins" if you would like a copy, let me know, and I wil send you one. Yes, it is Southern Gospel!

Salty

saturneptune
10-29-2009, 07:59 PM
We can argue all day long about the interpretations Paul gives for the qualifications of Pastor. In real life, the bottom line is a Pastor is qualified if the local church deems him to be qualified.

John Toppass
10-29-2009, 08:08 PM
We can argue all day long about the interpretations Paul gives for the qualifications of Pastor. In real life, the bottom line is a Pastor is qualified if the local church deems him to be qualified.

Still wouldn't make it right.

saturneptune
10-29-2009, 08:11 PM
Still wouldn't make it right.
That is not the subject of the thread. The name of the thread is "this would disqualify a man from being a pastor." A vote of the local church qualifies or disqualifies a Pastor.

As you can see from the above posts, what you think makes it right, and what I think makes it right can easily differ after reading the same Scripture. Above, we have two Pastors that disagree.

Mexdeaf
10-29-2009, 10:06 PM
Actually, I was going to put that in, but the poll only allows 10 choices. I know a poll, where you can get more choices, if interested, Mex, send me a pm

You do know I was speaking TIC? It's a good poll as is.

thomas15
11-02-2009, 09:58 AM
...and the hands down winner is : being married to a divorced woman

That my friends is what will keep you out of the ministry and I assume also from holding offices (deacon/elder). Never mind living together outside of marriage before marriage, homicide, bank robbery, being disobedient to parents.

Johnv
11-02-2009, 10:03 AM
I remember once putting up a poll, and being told that the popularity of a position does not make that position scripturally correct. That would most definitetely apply here. Simply put, scripture does not in and of itself disqualify a person from the pastorate simply because he has been divorced. It takes a bit if a hurdle to get scripture to jump through that hoop.

Thinkingstuff
11-02-2009, 10:29 AM
All save three (children, annulled, not married) can cause a disqualification.

Yet depending on the context non of these may cause a disqualification.

annsni
11-02-2009, 10:38 AM
I cannot take part in the poll because of the lack of clarity. whatever can be prove to be past and repented is not a disqualifier.

I agree with you. Amongst our pastors, we have a former drunkard (actually a couple), former drug addicts, former felony offenders, former adulterers, formerly divorced, former bar band members and former gym teachers. But all of these are "former". :) They are all new creations and the old man is gone.

John Toppass
11-02-2009, 10:54 AM
The qualifications for a pastor/elder/bishop or deacon can be found in scripture. Not being able to qualify for certain offices is not due to a form of punishment but rather it is the plan that God has given us for His own reasons.
Unfortunately there will alway be individuals and churches that think they know what is best for them and they will twist, massage and even ignore scripture to make it mean what they want it to mean.
These are the same folks that do their own will and then ask God to bless it instead of making sure that their will is following the will of God.

Johnv
11-02-2009, 10:57 AM
The qualifications for a pastor/elder/bishop or deacon can be found in scripture.
And the simple fact that a person is divorce is scripturally not a prima facie disqualification, despite the fact that many make it so.

John Toppass
11-02-2009, 11:10 AM
And the simple fact that a person is divorce is scripturally not a prima facie disqualification, despite the fact that many make it so.

That is true but the reasons of divorce or what the divorce leaves in its wake may disqualify them.

Johnv
11-02-2009, 11:24 AM
With that, I agree, and I believe most people woud likewise agree: that it's not the divorce per se, but the reason for it, that may or may not be a condition of disqualification.

Speedpass
11-05-2009, 09:59 PM
I guess I'd be disqualified as my wife was married before we met (her ex abused her; he also passed away earlier this year) and we don't have children and don't plan any (she is 46 and battling a multitude of health issues that would make pregnancy extremely difficult). :BangHead:

Dr. Bob
11-07-2009, 10:41 AM
Events of the PAST (pre-salvation) can certainly disqualify. If one has such a reputation and ill-report, then gets saved, it would take decades to be qualified in the eyes of the community.

Jeffrey Dahmers, murderer/molester/cannibal, got saved in prison while on death row. Now all his sins are forgiven - we agree. But will he EVER be "qualified" as an elder?

Nope.

Illustration: Even in the US (non-church) disqualification for political office is valid. Not because of any action of the person from birth on, but simply because of WHERE a person was born.

You may have the brightest, greatest politician (another Reagan if you would) and if he was not BORN an American Citizen, he cannot run for President. This excludes "Arnold" the Governator of California.

Did the person do anything wrong? Nope. Just a qualification that the Constitution stipulates. Doesn't mean the person is evil or bad, just that he does not fulfill the qualifications.

Gene Hawks
11-07-2009, 12:18 PM
Would one of you brilliant scholars tell me what the phrase "husband of one wife" has to do with divorce and remarriage. We don't have to worry about this qualification in this country. If you have more than one wife your going to Jail... Might make a good prison chaplain.:jesus:

Dr. Bob
11-07-2009, 02:02 PM
Would one of you brilliant scholars tell me what the phrase "husband of one wife" has to do with divorce and remarriage. We don't have to worry about this qualification in this country. If you have more than one wife your going to Jail... Might make a good prison chaplain.:jesus:

That's the problem - people read a passage (in whatever translation) and think they KNOW what it means. Words change. Translations are weak in areas and strong in others.

Husband is not in the original; "man" is the best English translation
Wife is not in the original; "woman" is the best English translation
One IS in the original (feminine, adj of "woman")

So it says a "one-woman man". ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE.

This disqualification of a man (possibly) because of divorce/remarriage comes from 2 other statements:

3:2 he must be irreproachable (anepalepton) in the assembly itself
3:7 he must have a good testimony to those in the community in general

ANY divorce/marriage will take years to "work through" issues to put the elder above reproach and stellar testimony.

Marcia
11-07-2009, 02:12 PM
That is true but the reasons of divorce or what the divorce leaves in its wake may disqualify them.

But not just the reasons for a divorce should disqualify. I think a divorce should be enough. The pastor should be held to a higher standard and his example is very influential. I think having a divorced pastor can send the wrong message, both to believers and unbelievers.

John Toppass
11-08-2009, 01:28 AM
But not just the reasons for a divorce should disqualify. I think a divorce should be enough. The pastor should be held to a higher standard and his example is very influential. I think having a divorced pastor can send the wrong message, both to believers and unbelievers.

I was referring to what is written in the scripture. I can not find where the scripture disqualifies a pastor because he is divorced, but many things that lead to the divorce or the actions taken due to the divorce would probably disqualify the candidate.

saturneptune
11-08-2009, 01:33 AM
I was referring to what is written in the scripture. I can not find where the scripture disqualifies a pastor because he is divorced, but many things that lead to the divorce or the actions taken due to the divorce would probably disqualify the candidate.
One of the qualifications is the ability of a pastor to keep his house in order. If one cannot lead his home, how can he lead a church?

John Toppass
11-08-2009, 02:13 AM
One of the qualifications is the ability of a pastor to keep his house in order. If one cannot lead his home, how can he lead a church?

That would be a perfect example of scriptural qualification

windcatcher
11-08-2009, 04:04 PM
RAther than present my opinion in a poll.......

I agree with the Rev.

Whomever God chooses is fit regardless of the tangibles we easily resort to. But many are called but few chosen.

Calling a minister is a seriou involvement of requesting instruction and direction from God with much prayer, using scriptures to guide, and study of the candidates........... and a heap of patience.......and getting self out of the way.

Salty
11-28-2009, 07:00 PM
I do not feel we can make a blanket rule on so little information on a person. Each case must be taken into consideration and the facts of that particular case carefully examined.

Excellent thought.
The poll was based on automatic disqualifications. I fully agree with CTB that each case needs to be examined.

So any new thoughts?

Salty

ps, I bumped this because, I linked this thread to a new thread about qualifications. (http://baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1482633&posted=1#post1482633)