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evangelist6589
09-30-2011, 06:37 PM
Dave Ramsey has some great financial advice, but the sad truth is that he also preaches self help and unfortunately has praised Joel Osteen, and TD Jakes (two heretics from the Word of Faith Movement). The same can be said of Dan Miller whom is a expert in his field. But also preaches self help and has praised Joel Osteen, and Robert Schuler.---- Stand for preachers that preach against the self help gospel (James MacDonald, John MacArthur, and Erwin Lutzer).

Should we separate from people like Ramsey and Miller? I think a strong case can be made for ecclesiastical separation. But no question Ramsey is a expert in the financial world, and Miller in the career field. Their books are the best of the best. But when reading their material, make sure you have enough discernment to filter out the good from the self help.

preachinjesus
09-30-2011, 06:41 PM
I am happy to recommend both Ramsey and Miller.

Both have outstanding ministries unfettered by controversy and are biblically based. I find both to be wonderful examples in life and ministry.

There is 100% no reason to consider separation.

quantumfaith
09-30-2011, 06:43 PM
I think most are wise and mature enough to appreciate the financial advice given by Ramsey while simply refusing to go along with "theological" advice or support that he might offer. As for "taking action", that, in my opinion should be relegated to his "home church". If he claims the name of Christ and the designation "christian", then I (or anyone else) can choose whether or not they should seek fellowship with him.

I like Ramsey and appreciate his financial advice and appreciate that his world view, as best as I can determine, is based upon his Christian faith.

evangelist6589
09-30-2011, 06:44 PM
I am happy to recommend both Ramsey and Miller.

Both have outstanding ministries unfettered by controversy and are biblically based. I find both to be wonderful examples in life and ministry.

There is 100% no reason to consider separation.

Do you read your Bible? Do you know who Joel Osteen, Robert Schuler, and TD Jakes are? Have you heard the podcasts where these have been praised? Ramsey also aligns himself up with Warren (whom is another self help guro).

Do you believe in the self help gospel? Look I never said that Ramsey & Miller are not experts in their fields. They certainly have great books. But…. we must use discernment, as their is also allot of self help in their books.

evangelist6589
09-30-2011, 06:46 PM
I think most are wise and mature enough to appreciate the financial advice given by Ramsey while simply refusing to go along with "theological" advice or support that he might offer. As for "taking action", that, in my opinion should be relegated to his "home church". If he claims the name of Christ and the designation "christian", then I (or anyone else) can choose whether or not they should seek fellowship with him.

I like Ramsey and appreciate his financial advice and appreciate that his world view, as best as I can determine, is based upon his Christian faith.

Yes no question his financial advice is great. But that is not the topic of this thread. The thread is concerning the self help gospel. And unfortunately both he and Miller are right on board advertising that gospel.

Listen to the teachings of John MacArthur, Erwin Luzter, and James McDonald.

quantumfaith
09-30-2011, 06:50 PM
Yes no question his financial advice is great. But that is not the topic of this thread. The thread is concerning the self help gospel. And unfortunately both he and Miller are right on board advertising that gospel.

Listen to the teachings of John MacArthur, Erwin Luzter, and James McDonald.

Thanks but I prefer to listen to:

David Jeremiah
Ravi Zacharias
Andy Stanley
Charles Stanley

preachinjesus
09-30-2011, 06:57 PM
Do you read your Bible?

Clearly not as much as you.

Do you know who Joel Osteen, Robert Schuler, and TD Jakes are? Have you heard the podcasts where these have been praised? Ramsey also aligns himself up with Warren (whom is another self help guro).

Hmmm...again are these men or demons masquerading as men? Really man? Come on. This is the kind of junk that just gets in the way of living a gospel centered life.

Do I listen to Pastors Osteen, Schuler, or Jakes often? No. Do I recommend them to others? Nope. But I have enough discernment to be able to see good biblical principles (ala Ramsey and Miller) and encourage my people to use them.

I'll be completely honest, at the church where I get to serve we offer Ramsey's Financial Peace University at least three times a year. Last year we had over 200 people go through the course. It has helped all of them. The stories of freedom from financial bondage we have are amazing. Also, our giving has gone up considerably, and we get to support more missions and outreach efforts because of it. The benefits of Ramsey's biblical approach are just terrific. About three or four months ago we hosted a simulcast of his leadership course. It attracted over one hundred leaders from the community that would never step foot into a church. It was hit. He used biblical principles to teach leadership. I like Ramsey a lot. He's an outstanding man, good Christian, and wonderful leader.

Do you believe in the self help gospel? Look I never said that Ramsey & Miller are not experts in their fields. They certainly have great books. But…. we must use discernment, as their is also allot of self help in their books.

How do you define "self help gospel?" Because I don't see either Ramsey or Miller espousing it. Quite simply they are partnering with other ministries to help people in ways that are significant.

What precise points of error (outside of affiliation...whatever that means) in both men's work do you find. Please be specific. Cite works and pages and let us review them all instead of just guilt by association.

How about instead of besmirching two good men's character we keep focused on what is central. Instead of being outraged for the sake of being outraged we focus our passions on stuff that matters.

You there is a Christian pastor in Iran getting ready to be executed, hows about we focus some attention and passion on that actual miscarriage of justice rather than dreaming up new ways to beat up fellow believers.

Salty
09-30-2011, 07:49 PM
I do not like Ramsey -

I prefer Clark Howard (http://www.clarkhoward.com/)

I used to have Larry Burkett on my radio station, but in the past few years he has gone home to be with the Lord. His organization merged with another group and is now known as Crown Financial Ministries (http://www.crown.org/)

quantumfaith
09-30-2011, 10:23 PM
Clark Howard is a good one too.

12strings
10-01-2011, 09:55 AM
There are 2 issues here:

1. Secondary Separation - There is a large debate about whether we should separate, not only from those who deny certain important truths, but also from those who do not themselves separate from such people, so if I think Dave Ramsey is OK, but he is not discerning enough to know that Joel Osteen is NOT ok, should I then automatically separate from Dave?

2. Complete Separation - Let's assume for a second that Dave Ramsey actually teaches some contrary beliefs. Should I then ignore and shun his financial advice. If I need to get legal advice, am I bound to find a lawyer who is both a Christian and agrees with me on all the major doctrines, or would any lawyer do?
So my point here is that since Dave Ramsey has some valid financial advice, We can accept that while showing discernment about his spiritual advice. It may be something we bring up with our church people who may not be so discerning...but if I know a couple who is struggling with debt, I'm going to tell them to get something from Dave ramsey.

preacher4truth
10-01-2011, 10:25 AM
Dave Ramsey has some great financial advice, but the sad truth is that he also preaches self help and unfortunately has praised Joel Osteen, and TD Jakes (two heretics from the Word of Faith Movement). The same can be said of Dan Miller whom is a expert in his field. But also preaches self help and has praised Joel Osteen, and Robert Schuler.---- Stand for preachers that preach against the self help gospel (James MacDonald, John MacArthur, and Erwin Lutzer).

Should we separate from people like Ramsey and Miller? I think a strong case can be made for ecclesiastical separation. But no question Ramsey is a expert in the financial world, and Miller in the career field. Their books are the best of the best. But when reading their material, make sure you have enough discernment to filter out the good from the self help.

I reject anyone who endorses the preachers you've mentioned. To me, how "expert" they are in another area doesn't necessitate acceptance of said person, their doctrine does, not their job performance.

Didn't our politically correct world teach us that it's not what you do behind the scenes, it's how well you do your job?

I reject that teaching altogether.

preachinjesus
10-01-2011, 11:01 AM
BTW, since I'm happy to defend ministries like these two men have, I'd challenge the OP to produce evidence (documented and cited...not ad hoc conjecture) to support his claims.

The accusations being made are very harsh, so let's see it. Other than talking about the stuff what evidence do you have to support your claims?

Havensdad
10-01-2011, 11:50 AM
Thanks but I prefer to listen to:
Andy Stanley
Charles Stanley

:tear:

Couldn't find : puke: which would be more appropriate.

gb93433
10-01-2011, 12:05 PM
How one handles their money is telling of how their needs desires, and greeds are met.

Robert Snow
10-01-2011, 03:05 PM
:tear:

Couldn't find : puke: which would be more appropriate.

Or, not making this unnecessary, ignorant comment would have been even more appropriate.

evangelist6589
10-01-2011, 04:43 PM
There are 2 issues here:

1. Secondary Separation - There is a large debate about whether we should separate, not only from those who deny certain important truths, but also from those who do not themselves separate from such people, so if I think Dave Ramsey is OK, but he is not discerning enough to know that Joel Osteen is NOT ok, should I then automatically separate from Dave?

2. Complete Separation - Let's assume for a second that Dave Ramsey actually teaches some contrary beliefs. Should I then ignore and shun his financial advice. If I need to get legal advice, am I bound to find a lawyer who is both a Christian and agrees with me on all the major doctrines, or would any lawyer do?
So my point here is that since Dave Ramsey has some valid financial advice, We can accept that while showing discernment about his spiritual advice. It may be something we bring up with our church people who may not be so discerning...but if I know a couple who is struggling with debt, I'm going to tell them to get something from Dave ramsey.

Yes its no secret that I am a Fundamentalist and attend a Fundamentalist church. However I am not as extreme as some I know on other boards more Fundamentalist. This board has a blend of evangelical & Fundamentalist. Some boards I know are completely Fundamentalist. But the sad truth is that most of them are dominated by KJVO types, and I am not that, especially since I like the NIV & the ESV best of english translations.

I would say to accept Dave's advice on financial matters, but reject and be more discerning when he speaks of spiritual issues and recommends self help books like "Thou shall prosper."

evangelist6589
10-01-2011, 04:52 PM
BTW, since I'm happy to defend ministries like these two men have, I'd challenge the OP to produce evidence (documented and cited...not ad hoc conjecture) to support his claims.

The accusations being made are very harsh, so let's see it. Other than talking about the stuff what evidence do you have to support your claims?

Look what I have is that Dave Ramsey has himself endorsed Joel Osteen and did so last week on his podcast. He also has spoken highly of Rick Warren and preached at his church last month. Dan Miller has likewise endorsed these on his podcasts in the past. Also his premise to his career book is "finding the work you love and are fulfilled doing." He says to QUIT a career where you are not fulfilled. While I generally agree it is best to work where we are best, the truth is that we are SLAVES of Christ and we work where he plants us. Sometimes its where we want, and other times its not. Our mission in life is not personal fulfillment.

I listened to some podcasts by John MacArthur, Erwin Lutzer, and James MacDonald in the past month speaking of employment matters and these preachers (despite their theological differences) all agree that employment is not about self fulfillment. They agree in matters of biblical ethics. I think it was Lutzer or MacArthur that said that the lost people at your job may only have you as their evangelist and you need to witness to them by your work ethics, attitude, habits, and speech, etc.. You may hate your job, you may get cussed at, yelled at, but you need to be where God has planted you, until he opens a door elsewhere.

If Dan Miller or Ramsey where commenting they would say to "quit the job" and find a place where you are fulfilled. They do not once emphasize being a SLAVE of Christ being an evangelist, and it being about God not you.


John

PS- The book Slave by John MacArthur is an EXCELLENT read.

evangelist6589
10-01-2011, 05:05 PM
:tear:

Couldn't find : puke: which would be more appropriate.

I also listen to Charles Stanley and have 2 of his books. He is very good for practical theology and Biblical ethics. He is quite different than some other preachers I listen too, but with Biblical ethics the Calvinist and the Arminean agree.

preachinjesus
10-01-2011, 06:04 PM
Look what I have is that Dave Ramsey has himself endorsed Joel Osteen and did so last week on his podcast. He also has spoken highly of Rick Warren and preached at his church last month. Dan Miller has likewise endorsed these on his podcasts in the past.

Well again you're providing no context, no actual evidence and simply making another ad hoc accusation against two brothers in Christ. (I'd ask if you've approached them biblically before showing up here and castigating them...but I think we know the answer.)

I like Rick Warren. He's a good guy, has a wonderful church, preaches the sound Gospel, and desires to see people saved. I don't have a problem with him like other people do and think he is a wonderful servant of God.

As for Joel Osteen, I don't care. Honestly. I've got better things to do with my time than worry about him and his ministry. Did you know they present the Gospel after every message? It is the exact same presentation I've heard at any number of gatherings led by preachers like Jerry Falwell, Bailey Smith, Billy Graham, etc. When it comes to guys like Pastor Osteen I simply recite Philippians 1:15-18 and go about my day.

Also his premise to his career book is "finding the work you love and are fulfilled doing." He says to QUIT a career where you are not fulfilled. While I generally agree it is best to work where we are best, the truth is that we are SLAVES of Christ and we work where he plants us. Sometimes its where we want, and other times its not. Our mission in life is not personal fulfillment.

Okay (I disagree...but see you've been reading Dr. MacArthur) so show me biblically all these points you've made about our careers. Show me biblically where you are making these points. Because I've thought about this topic too and believe the Bible tells a bunch of different stuff about these issues. So why get all hot and bothered about it?

If Dan Miller or Ramsey where commenting they would say to "quit the job" and find a place where you are fulfilled. They do not once emphasize being a SLAVE of Christ being an evangelist, and it being about God not you.

So because they don't speak their views precisely as you desire you're just gonna go at 'em in a pretty vacuous forum? You're comfortable besmirching their ministries because they don't hold the precise view of things you do?

For what it's worth if you and either of these were to sit down you'd probably find you have way more in common with them than what you are make a mountain out of here. I've actually heard Dave Ramsey say the phrase "it's about God and not about you" any number of times...but you probably don't care about that.

Basically you're just looking for a fight is what I'm getting here. You've got zero evidence and haven't approach either of these guys biblically. One of the first rules I learned in ministry from one of my early mentors was never try to make your ministry bones at the cost of another Gospel proclaiming ministry. You might not like the way they go about things, but there are much bigger things in the world to worry about.

These kinds of accusations are pointless. They sully the name of Christ and do not contribute to the conversation at all.

jaigner
10-01-2011, 07:02 PM
I also listen to Charles Stanley and have 2 of his books. He is very good for practical theology and Biblical ethics. He is quite different than some other preachers I listen too, but with Biblical ethics the Calvinist and the Arminean agree.

Practical theology? Really? His preaching is practical, but not very theological.

mandym
10-01-2011, 07:18 PM
I am happy to recommend both Ramsey and Miller.

Both have outstanding ministries unfettered by controversy and are biblically based. I find both to be wonderful examples in life and ministry.

There is 100% no reason to consider separation.


Ramsey is a good one. Every Christian should follow their counsel.

quantumfaith
10-01-2011, 07:49 PM
:tear:

Couldn't find : puke: which would be more appropriate.

I am glad you live in the USA and are entitled to your view. I would add, notice I did not make such a comment about anyone that you might listen to or read.

evangelist6589
10-01-2011, 10:20 PM
Well again you're providing no context, no actual evidence and simply making another ad hoc accusation against two brothers in Christ. (I'd ask if you've approached them biblically before showing up here and castigating them...but I think we know the answer.)

I like Rick Warren. He's a good guy, has a wonderful church, preaches the sound Gospel, and desires to see people saved. I don't have a problem with him like other people do and think he is a wonderful servant of God.

As for Joel Osteen, I don't care. Honestly. I've got better things to do with my time than worry about him and his ministry. Did you know they present the Gospel after every message? It is the exact same presentation I've heard at any number of gatherings led by preachers like Jerry Falwell, Bailey Smith, Billy Graham, etc. When it comes to guys like Pastor Osteen I simply recite Philippians 1:15-18 and go about my day.



Okay (I disagree...but see you've been reading Dr. MacArthur) so show me biblically all these points you've made about our careers. Show me biblically where you are making these points. Because I've thought about this topic too and believe the Bible tells a bunch of different stuff about these issues. So why get all hot and bothered about it?



So because they don't speak their views precisely as you desire you're just gonna go at 'em in a pretty vacuous forum? You're comfortable besmirching their ministries because they don't hold the precise view of things you do?

For what it's worth if you and either of these were to sit down you'd probably find you have way more in common with them than what you are make a mountain out of here. I've actually heard Dave Ramsey say the phrase "it's about God and not about you" any number of times...but you probably don't care about that.

Basically you're just looking for a fight is what I'm getting here. You've got zero evidence and haven't approach either of these guys biblically. One of the first rules I learned in ministry from one of my early mentors was never try to make your ministry bones at the cost of another Gospel proclaiming ministry. You might not like the way they go about things, but there are much bigger things in the world to worry about.

These kinds of accusations are pointless. They sully the name of Christ and do not contribute to the conversation at all.

I dont think I can reason with someone like you. You do not desire to see the truth, but only desire to air your opinion.

evangelist6589
10-01-2011, 10:23 PM
Practical theology? Really? His preaching is practical, but not very theological.

Practical theology is a branch of theology. The different systems of theology (historical, exegetical, systematic, biblical, practical, reformed/dogmatic,etc..) is something they teach (not in churches but in bible college).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_theology

gb93433
10-01-2011, 10:28 PM
Practical theology? Really? His preaching is practical, but not very theological.If I remember right Jesus spent a lot of time talking about money. If that is not practical and theological then what is it?

preachinjesus
10-02-2011, 03:44 PM
I dont think I can reason with someone like you. You do not desire to see the truth, but only desire to air your opinion.

I'm asking for evidence to back up your claims against these two ministries. You have only produced ad hoc criticisms. Please produce some actual evidence when labeling people false teachers.

jaigner
10-02-2011, 10:49 PM
Practical theology is a branch of theology. The different systems of theology (historical, exegetical, systematic, biblical, practical, reformed/dogmatic,etc..) is something they teach (not in churches but in bible college).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_theology

Uh, thanks, but I have a master's degree in theology. And Chuck Stanley is not very theological.

quantumfaith
10-03-2011, 06:25 AM
Uh, thanks, but I have a master's degree in theology. And Chuck Stanley is not very theological.

Dr. Stanley is most often a "topical preacher". He has both a graduate degree and a Th.D in theology. I have never had coffee or dinner with him, but I am certain if you were to ask him, he deems his preaching style and content to be granted by the God he worships. There is no denying that God has used him and his talent and skill to touch the lives of countless persons over the decades of his pastoral ministry.

evangelist6589
10-03-2011, 06:58 PM
Uh, thanks, but I have a master's degree in theology. And Chuck Stanley is not very theological.

I dont know anyone named Chuck Stanley. If you mean Charles, then yes from an academic perspective I would agree with you. However for practical theology he is practical. Norm Geisler is very very deep and theological, but not very practical. DA Carson is a good bible exegete, but not very practical. Millard Erikson is also a deep theologian, but not very practical. Its good to have people like Charles Stanley that are practical.

quantumfaith
10-03-2011, 09:50 PM
I dont know anyone named Chuck Stanley. If you mean Charles, then yes from an academic perspective I would agree with you. However for practical theology he is practical. Norm Geisler is very very deep and theological, but not very practical. DA Carson is a good bible exegete, but not very practical. Millard Erikson is also a deep theologian, but not very practical. Its good to have people like Charles Stanley that are practical.

:) I am reminded of I Corinthians 12, Pauls treatise on spiritual gifts.

webdog
10-03-2011, 10:15 PM
:tear:

Couldn't find : puke: which would be more appropriate.

Comparing God's servants to vomit is appalling...but consider the source.

webdog
10-03-2011, 10:20 PM
Uh, thanks, but I have a master's degree in theology. And Chuck Stanley is not very theological.

Well it must be true...jaigner has a Master's degree! :rolleyes:

webdog
10-03-2011, 10:23 PM
Not a huge fan of Ramsey. His cookie cutter approach doesn't work for everyone. He also is in favor4 of working more and seeing your family less to pay down debt faster and belittles and demeans his callers with "stupid", "idiot". If I recall his financial wisdom came about due to his bankruptcy, not his methods.

evangelist6589
10-04-2011, 06:23 AM
Not a huge fan of Ramsey. His cookie cutter approach doesn't work for everyone. He also is in favor4 of working more and seeing your family less to pay down debt faster and belittles and demeans his callers with "stupid", "idiot". If I recall his financial wisdom came about due to his bankruptcy, not his methods.

Exactly… Its good to have discernment. Listen to Crown and the president does not say you cant have a CC. He says you must pay it off whenever you use it. This is what I do to earn rewards.

Yes Ramsey is very very sarcastic. Once a woman tweeted him, and the tweet ticked him off so much that he said she was mentally ill, crazy, had problems with her parents, she was abused as a child, and on and on he went over someone he does not even know!

jaigner
10-04-2011, 06:42 AM
I dont know anyone named Chuck Stanley. If you mean Charles, then yes from an academic perspective I would agree with you. However for practical theology he is practical. Norm Geisler is very very deep and theological, but not very practical. DA Carson is a good bible exegete, but not very practical. Millard Erikson is also a deep theologian, but not very practical. Its good to have people like Charles Stanley that are practical.

Hmmm, you see, I would find Erikson of Carson very practical.

jaigner
10-04-2011, 06:43 AM
Well it must be true...jaigner has a Master's degree! :rolleyes:

Yeah, thanks, but what I meant was that I didn't need that particular info, not that all my theological perspectives are spot on or as good as gold.

quantumfaith
10-04-2011, 07:57 AM
Yeah, thanks, but what I meant was that I didn't need that particular info, not that all my theological perspectives are spot on or as good as gold.

Thanks jaigner, this type of admittance is a breath of fresh air in BB land. :) I too feel the same, particularly because I have precious few bible/theology courses on my curriculum vitae.

JesusFan
10-06-2011, 11:46 AM
Dave Ramsey has some great financial advice, but the sad truth is that he also preaches self help and unfortunately has praised Joel Osteen, and TD Jakes (two heretics from the Word of Faith Movement). The same can be said of Dan Miller whom is a expert in his field. But also preaches self help and has praised Joel Osteen, and Robert Schuler.---- Stand for preachers that preach against the self help gospel (James MacDonald, John MacArthur, and Erwin Lutzer).

Should we separate from people like Ramsey and Miller? I think a strong case can be made for ecclesiastical separation. But no question Ramsey is a expert in the financial world, and Miller in the career field. Their books are the best of the best. But when reading their material, make sure you have enough discernment to filter out the good from the self help.

IF dave really does endorse those men that you listed, then he cannot be trusted for spiritual discernment in theology, but STILL can be viewed as being biblical in his financial advise... NONE of those men actually teach the Bible right, as they all have a Gospel of self esteem/self help, NOT Gospel of jesus!

My biggest fault with dave in monetary issues is that he tends to have debt as being sinful/evil period, and that he assumes that God wants to have ALL Christians financially well off/affluant!

Grasshopper
10-07-2011, 10:41 PM
http://www.garynorth.com/public/8447.cfm

Gary North not a fan of Dave Ramsey. North makes a few good points.

webdog
10-08-2011, 03:52 PM
http://www.garynorth.com/public/8447.cfm

Gary North not a fan of Dave Ramsey. North makes a few good points.

North is spot on and also shares the reason I'm not a fan. A fraud in many aspects actually.

saturneptune
10-09-2011, 03:43 AM
Do you read your Bible? Do you know who Joel Osteen, Robert Schuler, and TD Jakes are? Have you heard the podcasts where these have been praised? Ramsey also aligns himself up with Warren (whom is another self help guro).

Do you believe in the self help gospel? Look I never said that Ramsey & Miller are not experts in their fields. They certainly have great books. But…. we must use discernment, as their is also allot of self help in their books.
You must have lots of free time on your hands to analyze the relationship between these five men. Frankly, time could be better spent watching reruns of the Gong Show.

Dave Ramsey is what he is, a financial advisor, and his principles are in line with Biblical financial concepts. Thats as far as the analyzing goes. As far as what he thinks about Osteen or Schuler, I do not care. I also do not care what Ramsey thinks about the Beatles or the leaders of China.