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View Full Version : can God Override the Human will if He So Chose?


JesusFan
12-19-2011, 03:12 PM
In order say to have history move in the direction that He has willed to come to pass?

convicted1
12-20-2011, 01:07 PM
In order say to have history move in the direction that He has willed to come to pass?

God can do whatsoever He chooses to do.

Pastor David
12-20-2011, 01:10 PM
In order say to have history move in the direction that He has willed to come to pass?

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." - Pr. 21:1

God doesn't have to 'override' human will.

usmjam
12-20-2011, 01:14 PM
In order say to have history move in the direction that He has willed to come to pass?Do you mean as in a sort of mind control wherein your will is no longer your own?

If so, I'd say of course God has the power to do anything but no he does not remove free will choices directly in the way I asked above.
However it is obvious that God can, did and does change our will for His purposes in many other ways.

I'd start with a study of the guy He sent to sleep with the fishes (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jon&c=1&t=KJV).....

How about King Nebuchadnezzar (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=1&t=KJV&q=Daniel)?

Too often our will must be broken for our own good. Thank God that He bothers at all to steer, prod and guide our will.

Grasshopper
12-20-2011, 01:28 PM
In order say to have history move in the direction that He has willed to come to pass?

Ask Paul on his way to Demascus.

webdog
12-20-2011, 02:33 PM
Ask Paul on his way to Demascus.

So he had no choice in going to Annaias?

convicted1
12-20-2011, 02:36 PM
So he had no choice in going to Annaias?

Nope. Didn't you read in Acts where they led him around in bonds and chains? Oops. That's later on in the bible....:laugh:

glfredrick
12-20-2011, 02:55 PM
Of course He can, and He has and still does...

But the way God does this is not always the way the nay-sayers against His sovereignty imagine. He simply arranges things so that the one whom He is interested in changing sees things His way. No violation of the will of either in that regard.

Oh, and it is literally child's play for God to change someone's mind or heart. I recall very well how He changed mine. It was simple for Him, not so simple for me, but PRAISE HIM, He did it! :thumbsup: :saint:

My life is saved because He sovereignly changed my mind so that I would not have to come to Him kicking and screaming, and more so, he did all that without another human being getting involved in any personal sense. In other words, no one "talked me into" or out of anything.

Skandelon
12-20-2011, 03:18 PM
Of course He can, and He has and still does...
Oh, and it is literally child's play for God to change someone's mind or heart.
Explain something to me. If a person's heart is as God determined it to be in the first place, then what exactly is God "changing?" Isn't he just changing what He had already determined?

How is anything really "changed" in a world where God has casually predetermined (through second/third causes etc) from the very beginning? To speak of man's will being changed one must first establish that the man has some since of independence on which to base the separation between what is God's will and that which is being 'changed.'

Pastor David
12-20-2011, 03:38 PM
Explain something to me. If a person's heart is as God determined it to be in the first place, then what exactly is God "changing?" Isn't he just changing what He had already determined?

How is anything really "changed" in a world where God has casually predetermined (through second/third causes etc) from the very beginning? To speak of man's will being changed one must first establish that the man has some since of independence on which to base the separation between what is God's will and that which is being 'changed.'

I would encourage you and all Christians not to concern yourself on finding the place where divine sovereignty and human responsibility ultimately meet. The Bible teaches both. What seems a paradox in our mind is perfectly reconciled in the Lord. These two teachings are like a set of train tracks which run side by side through out history and appear to come together in the distance. It is not man's to know all the mysteries of God's design. If we knew all things, then man, rather than God, would be God.

marke
12-20-2011, 03:59 PM
In order say to have history move in the direction that He has willed to come to pass?

God does not have to make things happen in order for Him to know the future, God dwells in the eternal present where there is no past or future. Man has a really hard time understanding that, but if men would only consider the Apostle John's testimony of what he saw in the tribulation when it was as yet still at least 2,000 years away, then they might catch a glimpse of how that can be done.

There is a reason God did not just create man unable to sin in the first place and bypassed sin altogether, and that same reason is why God refuses to violate a person's exercise of his own choice in whether to believe God or not.

JesusFan
12-20-2011, 05:26 PM
Explain something to me. If a person's heart is as God determined it to be in the first place, then what exactly is God "changing?" Isn't he just changing what He had already determined?

God determined that we would ALL be found gulity in Adam, that we ALL shared in his judgement, and thus ALL of us are sinners....

So God determined to have all of us be found in Adam, tied into him, so we are indeed spiritually dead!

How is anything really "changed" in a world where God has casually predetermined (through second/third causes etc) from the very beginning? To speak of man's will being changed one must first establish that the man has some since of independence on which to base the separation between what is God's will and that which is being 'changed.'

be thankful that God can cause ALL things to happen after His predestined Plan IF he so wills, as that would be the ONLY means/way you and I would ever have gotten saved!

We are born as estranged from god, willfully choosing to sin and refusing to come to Him in odedience...

God does His work to take a rebel, whose desire is to play our own 'god", and makes him one willing to submit to Him, calling upon Him to be saved!
CLEAR change to me, from one loving to stay in darkness, to one willing to come into the light and be saved!

glfredrick
12-20-2011, 07:25 PM
Explain something to me. If a person's heart is as God determined it to be in the first place, then what exactly is God "changing?" Isn't he just changing what He had already determined?

How is anything really "changed" in a world where God has casually predetermined (through second/third causes etc) from the very beginning? To speak of man's will being changed one must first establish that the man has some since of independence on which to base the separation between what is God's will and that which is being 'changed.'

You know what the Bible says about God hardening hearts... He is as capable of hardening as He is of drawing and softening. All in His timing.

Second, you also know (KNOW) that God has not set aside human actions. We are not mindless robots who just go about according to some divine plan.

Seeing as how you KNOW both of these things, why do you yet insist on making a point that is in fact an intentional fallacy? Is it THAT important to score points with the peanut gallery that follows you?

marke
12-20-2011, 07:32 PM
Of course He can, and He has and still does...

But the way God does this is not always the way the nay-sayers against His sovereignty imagine. He simply arranges things so that the one whom He is interested in changing sees things His way. No violation of the will of either in that regard.

Oh, and it is literally child's play for God to change someone's mind or heart. I recall very well how He changed mine. It was simple for Him, not so simple for me, but PRAISE HIM, He did it! :thumbsup: :saint:

My life is saved because He sovereignly changed my mind so that I would not have to come to Him kicking and screaming, and more so, he did all that without another human being getting involved in any personal sense. In other words, no one "talked me into" or out of anything.

It's just too bad God didn't treat everyone the way He treated you, then, since there seems to be an enormous number of sinners still headed to hell for being ignorantly born in the sins of others.

Grasshopper
12-20-2011, 07:35 PM
So he had no choice in going to Annaias?

The question was: can God Override the Human will if He So Chose?

It was Paul freely chosen will to go to Damascus and persecute Christians. God decided otherwise. So yah, I think God overrode Paul's will.

quantumfaith
12-20-2011, 08:17 PM
You know what the Bible says about God hardening hearts... He is as capable of hardening as He is of drawing and softening. All in His timing.

Second, you also know (KNOW) that God has not set aside human actions. We are not mindless robots who just go about according to some divine plan.

Seeing as how you KNOW both of these things, why do you yet insist on making a point that is in fact an intentional fallacy? Is it THAT important to score points with the peanut gallery that follows you?

Ultimately we are automatons and you KNOW this, if EVERYTHING was intentioned and determined. And I rather like peanuts. It is great living down here in the south where peanuts have been a staple crop. I am grateful for the reasoned, articulate way that Skan asks questions and defends his positions. Your "peanut gallery" comment is off base and you KNOW it.

quantumfaith
12-20-2011, 08:18 PM
God can do whatsoever He chooses to do.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Skandelon
12-20-2011, 08:25 PM
You know what the Bible says about God hardening hearts... He is as capable of hardening as He is of drawing and softening. All in His timing. Yet, I've yet to hear a Calvinist sufficiently explain why God would judicially hardened a man born totally depraved. Why blind a man born totally blind?

God seals a man in his hardened condition so as to accomplish a redemptive purpose, but if Calvinism is true there would be no reason for Jesus to have spoken in parables and for God to have sent Israel a 'spirit of stupor.'

Second, you also know (KNOW) that God has not set aside human actions. We are not mindless robots who just go about according to some divine plan. I never said that is what you believed, and I think you KNOW that. But it may be easier for you to put words in my mouth and then attack for those in your gallery...oh wait...never mind. :tongue3:

webdog
12-20-2011, 08:29 PM
The question was: can God Override the Human will if He So Chose?

It was Paul freely chosen will to go to Damascus and persecute Christians. God decided otherwise. So yah, I think God overrode Paul's will.

Thats not overriding his will, its putting a circumstance before him where his will changed. He was still free to believe it was Christ, free to dismiss the account (the jews dismissed much more wonderous signs than that), and free to obey Him in going to Annanaias.

glfredrick
12-20-2011, 08:58 PM
Guess the peanut gallery is speaking... :laugh:

marke
12-20-2011, 09:18 PM
Guess the peanut gallery is speaking... :laugh:

I don't know. If it is it might just be singing, "...silently, ever so silently...". Just kidding. Some of my best friends don't agree with me about this or that and I still love them dearly (seriously). They will get straightened out in the end (just kidding again).

I better get off this coaster before I roll over something that might hurt (seriously, again.)

Thanks for the post.

Skandelon
12-20-2011, 09:24 PM
Thats not overriding his will, its putting a circumstance before him where his will changed.
Exactly! :thumbsup:

I can't understand why God didn't just effectually regenerate Paul's will so that he would have a new will and become an apostle. I wonder why God used a big fish to change Jonah's will, I mean, doesn't he have control over their hearts via 'effectual' regeneration? I know, I know, God uses means, but what exactly are those 'means' accomplishing that is not accomplished by regeneration? And what purpose do they serve?

quantumfaith
12-20-2011, 09:42 PM
Guess the peanut gallery is speaking... :laugh:

They are really good, boiled, parched, and my favorite, inside an M&M.

glfredrick
12-21-2011, 06:30 AM
They are really good, boiled, parched, and my favorite, inside an M&M.

There is no such thing as a "good" "baalled paynut". :laugh:

I'm from up nort' where peanuts are served properly roasted with salt. (and most of the time with a good beer). :wavey:

quantumfaith
12-21-2011, 06:36 AM
There is no such thing as a "good" "baalled paynut". :laugh:

I'm from up nort' where peanuts are served properly roasted with salt. (and most of the time with a good beer). :wavey:

Well come down to the south, I will treat you to some green boiled peanuts and your favorite brew, and we will leave the theology topic alone and "fellowship". BTW, Bass Ale, Guinness, Carlsberg and Killians Red are my favorites.

webdog
12-21-2011, 09:24 AM
Well come down to the south, I will treat you to some green boiled peanuts and your favorite brew, and we will leave the theology topic alone and "fellowship". BTW, Bass Ale, Guinness, Carlsberg and Killians Red are my favorites.

I'll bring a case of Yuengling and Great Lakes Brewing Co. Christmas Ale :)

InTheLight
12-21-2011, 09:26 AM
Exactly! :thumbsup:

I can't understand why God didn't just effectually regenerate Paul's will so that he would have a new will and become an apostle. I wonder why God used a big fish to change Jonah's will, I mean, doesn't he have control over their hearts via 'effectual' regeneration? I know, I know, God uses means, but what exactly are those 'means' accomplishing that is not accomplished by regeneration? And what purpose do they serve?

I don't know the answer so I will resort to the oft-used Calvinist saw, "it's a mystery we can't understand, deal with it."

quantumfaith
12-21-2011, 10:14 AM
I'll bring a case of Yuengling and Great Lakes Brewing Co. Christmas Ale :)

I like Yuengling too. :)

JesusFan
12-21-2011, 02:31 PM
Exactly! :thumbsup:

I can't understand why God didn't just effectually regenerate Paul's will so that he would have a new will and become an apostle. I wonder why God used a big fish to change Jonah's will, I mean, doesn't he have control over their hearts via 'effectual' regeneration? I know, I know, God uses means, but what exactly are those 'means' accomplishing that is not accomplished by regeneration? And what purpose do they serve?

Did paul have the free will to have said no to becoming the Apostle paul, as that God and Jesus had predestined him to become Apostle unto the Gentiles by divine election, or not?

freeatlast
12-21-2011, 02:53 PM
In order say to have history move in the direction that He has willed to come to pass?

"can God Override the Human will if He So Chose"

You are asking the wrong question. It should be "does God" not "can God".

JesusFan
12-21-2011, 03:33 PM
"can God Override the Human will if He So Chose"

You are asking the wrong question. It should be "does God" not "can God".

As you are fond to say, yes!

Skandelon
12-21-2011, 07:25 PM
Did paul have the free will to have said no to becoming the Apostle paul, as that God and Jesus had predestined him to become Apostle unto the Gentiles by divine election, or not?

Yes, I believe he 'could' have said no, but who would given those overwhelming circumstances. It would be like Jonah not being convinced by spending 3 days in a fish...just not real likely. God will go to whatever lengths necessary to ensure the delivery of his divinely appointed message.

glfredrick
12-22-2011, 07:10 AM
Yes, I believe he 'could' have said no, but who would given those overwhelming circumstances. It would be like Jonah not being convinced by spending 3 days in a fish...just not real likely. God will go to whatever lengths necessary to ensure the delivery of his divinely appointed message.

Thanks (Balaam), and yes, exactly.

Skandelon
12-22-2011, 09:06 AM
Thanks (Balaam), and yes, exactly.

But, proof that God uses overwhelmingly convincing circumstances to ensure his message of redemption is delivered is any thing but proof that God uses secret inward irresistible working to ensure certain pre-selected individuals believe their message.

In fact, it makes little since for God to use 'normative' (outward) circumstances as means to provoke the wills of the his chosen messengers only to use an irresistible, inward, regenerative work to change the wills of certain individuals in their audience.

- Hee Haw