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Frogman
04-13-2004, 03:33 AM
Dear Brethren,
I debated whether to put this post in the Denominations forum or here, you see which forum won the debate :D If I lost this debate, just let me know. If you want further information, let me know and I will pm to you contact info.

Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Old Regular Baptists

The Old Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ is one of the subdenominations of the Baptist church, and is concentrated in an area along the Virginia and Kentucky border. Churches are found in other states as a result of outward migration from the region. As of 1987, there were seventy-three Old Regular churches, with a membership of 3285. The first association of churches which would become the Old Regular Baptists was formed in 1825. The New Salem Association was formed out of the Burning Spring A ssociation. Of the eight churches which originally made up the New Salem Association, only two remain. It was this association of churches that adopted the term Old Regular Baptist in 1892. They adopted a doctrine somewhere between the Calvinistic Primitive Baptists and the more Arminian Free Will and Missionary Baptists.

The Old Regulars believe in keeping with the "old ways." Their patriarchal organization follows a set of rules which has been lifted from the New Testament, forming the basis of their institution. The following are some examples: Women are denied a fo rmal voice in church governance (I Cor. 14:34). Men are commanded to cut their hair, and women are admonished not to do so (I Cor. 11:14-15). Women must not dress in men's clothing, i.e. slacks, jeans, pantsuits (Deut. 22:5). Men are to command their o wn homes (Eph. 5:22-23), particularly those ordained as deacons (I Tim. 3:12). These scriptural rules, and others are staunchly followed. The Old Regulars pride themselves on the belief that their church is most closely representative of the early Chris tian Church of the New Testament.

The Old Regular Baptist congregation ranges in size from four to nearly two hundred members, although they average between thirty-five to forty-five. They meet monthly and often attend the services of other Old Regular Churches on the Sundays their chu rch does not meet. There is a total of sixteen Old Regular Baptist associations. Some of them are in communication with each other, but not one is in communication with all. Each association has an annual meeting which serves as a business meeting, ext ended church service, and a homecoming for families who have moved away from the region.


SOVEREIGN GRACE OLD REGULAR BAPTISTS


SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST CHURCHES OF JESUS CHRIST.
This appears at present to be one of the smallest Old Regular Baptist Associations. They are however one of the strongest representatives of the original doctrine, faith and practice of the Old Regular Baptist in modern times.The churches of this association stress the Godhead,Inflability of the Old and New Testament,Election by Grace,Original Sin,Justification by the Imputed Righteousness of Jesus Christ,sinners being called to Repentance,Eternal Secruity,a properly ordained ministry.Their ministers preach a Travail from Nature to Grace,(there must be a begotting before there can be a birth.)They believe in a Last Day in which there will be a resurection of the dead the just and the unjust,the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked will be eternal.They baptize by immersion, take the Lord's Supper with wine and unleavened bread which is followed by feet washing.Old Regular Baptist are non-instrumental prefering to line their songs in different meters.The members of this association practice modesty of dress.Sisters belonging to these churches do not cut their hair,brothers do not let their hair grow long.They have no secret orders among their membership. Sovereign Grace Association doesn't however infringe on any of it's Corresponding Associations and leaves them to settle their own matters.Like all Orthodox Old School Baptist they deny Freewillism,Arminism,Gospel Regeneration,Works for Eternal Salvation,Pre and Postmillenalism.While there are young people attending their churches, there is no Sunday Schools, Missionary Societies, ETC..Sovereign Grace Old Regulars believe the church of today has no right to place something in the church ,that Christ and the Apostles did not establish; that to do such would be adding to the Word of God. You will find these churches are very open to newcomers/outsiders.Visiting one of these churches is like taking a trip back in time, you will often hear shouting and praising the KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS, oldtime singing and love being manifested throughout the service,if you long for simple New Testament Worship vist one of these Old Regular Baptist Churches.


MOUNT ZION CHURCH: Located on State Route 309(8 miles west of Kenton,Ohio and 18 miles east of Lima,Ohio behind the roadside rest)This Church meets the first Sunday of every month @ 10:30 A.M

NEW MT.ZION CHURCH:Located on Kegley Street off 2nd Street north in Shelby, Ohio.This Church meets every 4th Sunday of every month
@ 10:00 A.M

BLESSED HOPE CHURCH: From Liberty,Kentucky take 70west to Moxley
Road turn left on Moxley by Creston Missionary Baptist then go 4.3 miles and as you come down a large hill turn left onto Spruce Pine Road the church is on the right 1/10th of amile.
This church meets on the 2nd Sunday of each month @ 9:30cst/10:30 est A.M and every Sunday @ 6:00cst/7:00est P.M


GREEN RIVER CHURCH: Lincoln County(McKinney),Kentucky take RT698
west from RT27 Go past Redeemption Road Church down the hill Church is approx.4miles from RT27 on the right.

This church meets on the 3rd Sunday most of the year.
FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THE SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST
OR WRITE TO SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION

4247 GUMLICK RD.
LIBERTY,KY 42539

pinoybaptist
04-13-2004, 06:18 AM
Hi, Brother Dallas:

Something's been bugging me. Why the irregular schedules for some ? I mean, one sunday per month kind of meeting ?

Just wondering.

Thanks.

Frogman
04-13-2004, 08:57 AM
Dear Brother Pinyobaptist,
I suppose this was a result of several factors related to colonial American history. Among these was prohibition by colonial government supported religions. In Virginia, the Anglican church prohibited any from assembling more than once per month unless the preacher was licensed by the Anglican church. Baptists and I suppose other groups could meet in a home, one time per month, but never in the same location for two consecutive months.

Perhaps transportation and other issues were at fault also. In Kentucky, Baptists were busy trying to establish their homes, avoid or battle Native American raids, until things became settled they would meet together in the nearest home and where ever a man was found to be called to preach they would hold services as such.

There are many missionary Baptists here in the Glasgow area who retain this 1x per month meeting.

I will try to find the source for my statements above and post it later; especially in regards to the restrictions by established societies prohibiting baptists from meeting more often.

IMHO, this is a hold over from those days, I may be completely wrong however, we haven't had any Indian uprisings here for years :D

Hope that helps. I think the information concerning Ky can be found in John Taylor's writings; and that concerning Va. I think I found in Jeffery Morehouse's The Indomintable Baptist

But don't hold me to those sources, I will check them and post them for sure later.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Bethelassoc
04-13-2004, 09:30 AM
I believe that the once a month also came about due to lack of ministers. This still holds true for some United Baptists in eastern KY.

Churches today keep to the once a month as a tradition and travel to sister churches the other three weeks. I guess it would be like a traveling fellowship.

Frogman:

Thanks for the info on SGA.

Are you into studying the ORB? I have family in the Old Regulars and I've been working on their history along with the history of the United Baptists, where the Old Regulars came from.

rsr
04-13-2004, 09:37 AM
I believe that the once a month also came about due to lack of ministers. This still holds true for some United Baptists in eastern KY.This is still the practice for many Primitive Baptist churches.

Bethelassoc
04-13-2004, 09:45 AM
And in case others want more info, Indian Bottom Association of Old Regular Baptists is on the net:

http://www.oldregularbaptist.org

I see that the site has changed some, but it was based on Indian Bottom churches from the beginning.

Bethelassoc
04-13-2004, 11:48 AM
Frogman:

I found a site for Blessed Hope Church:

http://netministries.org/see/churches.exe/ch21126

Frogman
04-13-2004, 01:09 PM
Are you into studying the ORB? I have family in the Old Regulars and I've been working on their history along with the history of the United Baptists, where the Old Regulars came from. Thanks. I think you are right about the lack of ministers being a cause of once a month meetings. Those missionary Baptists around here who meet in this manner also visit other churches in the area in their off days.

Bro. Dallas

Bethelassoc
04-13-2004, 02:38 PM
This same problem was found with the songleaders (which usually were the traveling preachers).

Back years ago, when my grandfather was alive and traveled the churches, he usually had a songbook like the "Sweet Songster" and would line out the songs to the church (since songbooks were also scarce). He traveled in both the Old Regular and United Baptist churches.

rlvaughn
04-13-2004, 04:46 PM
Frogman, do you know if the Sovereign Grace Association is a new association? I've never seen it mentioned in any of the correspondence with other Old Regular Associations.

Bethelassoc, do you all use the "Sweet Songster"? Most of the Old Regulars appear to use it and/or Thomas' hymnal?

The Old Regular Baptists of Central Appalachia: Brothers and Sisters in Hope, by Howard Dorgan, is an interesting read on this group.

Old Regular Baptist link (http://www.fact-index.com/o/ol/old_regular_baptist.html)

Frogman
04-13-2004, 06:44 PM
Dear Brother Vaughan,

I found this file through the HBS. An Elder in the Primitive Baptist said this group is not historically identified as 'Sovereign Grace' Old Regular Baptist, but simply as Old Regular Baptist.

He commented this to me and others in an email message. I will find it and post his comments when I get home from work.

Bro. Dallas
Brethren, below is the email message received from a PB email message group regarding the "Sovereign Grace" Old Regular Baptists.


Dear Brethren,
Recently Brother asked me about a Baptist group that had been named in an article found in another discussion group that he and I read. The term for that Baptist group was given as Sovereign Grace Old Regular Baptists. However, the actual group name is the Old Regular Baptists. In that article many similarities to Primitive Baptists were mentioned, and Brother Sing wrote me privately asking to know if these were actually PBs.

[ April 13, 2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

Bethelassoc
04-13-2004, 09:30 PM
rlvaughn:

My association doesn't use the Sweet Songster, but some of the associations east of the Mississippi do. They also use the New Baptist Songbook (also known as the United Baptist songbook), the Thomas Hymnal, and another one called "Some of Our Favorite Songs" (Little Rosa church, New Salem Assoc?) printed in Pippa Passes, KY.

It depends on the association and if they line out the songs like the ORBs and some PBs.

With my UBC research, I've had an Elder Sloan from SGA contact me with history information. I had never heard of SGA either and had to have him explain more about it.

I know that there is a list of ORB associations listed on Wikipedia, but here's my list of associations that are or were ORB (I'm still varifying if they are correct):

New Salem
Sardis
Indian Bottom
Union
Thornton Union
Bethel
Northern New Salem
Philadelphia
Burning Springs
Old Stone Cole
(Old)Friendship
Mud River
Sand Lick
Mates Creek
Kyova
Little River
Mountain
Mountain Liberty
Sovereign Grace
Twin Creek

A good book that I've found is the "History of Regular Baptist and Their Ancestors and Accessors" by Rufus Perrigan. I haven't been through the whole book yet (I placed it somewhere so good, I can't find it right now!), but I've found great information to use.

[ April 13, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Bethelassoc ]

Frogman
04-13-2004, 11:30 PM
Dear Bethelassoc,
I believe an Elder Sloan, or maybe two different Elder Sloans are identified with the article I posted.

I removed their names because I do not know them and did not know if they would care for me using their name on the www.

So, according to your post, the Sov. Grace Old Regular Baptist Assoc. is their true name, is that right?

Bro. Dallas

Bethelassoc
04-13-2004, 11:55 PM
Bro Dallas:

I looked back at my records and realized I had mispelled his name, but that website I posted for Blessed Hope church gives his contact information.

He called it "SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST".

rlvaughn
04-13-2004, 11:56 PM
Bethelassoc: I have the first three song books you mention. If you have a complete address for ordering the 4th one (Some of Our Favorite Songs), could you pm it to me? Also do you know if Perrigan's History of Regular Baptists is still available anywhere?

I can confirm the existence of the following associations, up to just a few years ago: New Salem, Sardis, Indian Bottom, Old Indian Bottom, Union, Thornton Union, Little Dove, Bethel, Northern New Salem, Philadelphia, Friendship, Old Friendship, Mud River, Mountain, and Mountain Liberty. The following I don't know about: Sand Lick, Mates Creek, Kyova, Twin Creek, Burning Springs, and Old Stone Cole. There is a Mate's Creek Primitive Baptist Association, and, from the best information I have been able to gather (which doesn't make it so), the Kyova is probably out of existence. I'm a little leery of such pronouncements, though. The Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists pronounces several United Baptist associations with which you would be familiar as "extinct"!

Frogman: I don't know which is the correct official name, but "Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ" is consistent with the way most of the Old Regular Associations style themselves.

Bethelassoc
04-14-2004, 12:10 AM
Bro. Vaughn:

I do know that Twin Creek is extinct. I found it in Vol 2 of Spencer's History of KY Baptists. I'm in correspondance with an ORB member that is getting me more information on Sand Lick and Mates Creek. He says that his church has a history book on some United Baptist associations that went ORB, but he missed the Sunday they had service there.

I know what you mean about so called extinct associations. I've changed my UBC list several times because of verification problems.

The Regular Baptist History book by Perrigan is non-existant, as far as I know. I fought to get this one and I've had several offers to sell. If I can find it again, I'll pm you the info on it.

BTW, do you sing any of them old "Songs of Zion" out of them song books? smile.gif

rlvaughn
04-14-2004, 12:28 AM
None of those song books are in use here. The only Baptists that sing a cappella from "words-only" hymn books around here (that I know of) are the Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists, who use mostly Benjamin Lloyd's Primitive Hymns and sometimes D. H. Goble's Primitive Baptist Hymn Book. The Limited Predestinarian Primitive Baptists pull these books out once in awhile, but the majority of them use the Old School Hymnal, which includes tunes with the words. When these "words-only" books are used, it is almost always everyone singing the melody in unison (no harmony parts). Usually only on the "opening hymn" of the service is lining ever done. We also sing many of the same tunes in the Sacred Harp book, but this has four-part harmony.

There was an Old Regular Baptist elder who lived and worked for a time in New Braunfels, Texas, but I believe he moved back to the Appalachias; I lost contact with him.

I have a few photocopy pages of Perrigan's work, but have never seen an actual copy of the book.

Frogman
04-14-2004, 12:39 AM
Thanks Brothers Bethelassoc and Vaughan.

I guess the elder there would know the name of the association, wouldn't he? ;)

I am into studying the OR Baptists, and all Baptist groups.

Brother Tyndale got me on it with his 'Split of 1832' post and I have been trying to study 'old' Baptists ever since.

The SGLMB (or SGLIB) independent or missionary, there may be minor differences, I was in a Bible Conference with these (I believe SGLIB) last summer in Dothan Alabama.

Since I have noticed some of these identify themselves as SGLMB (seem associated with the now passed away Elder Milburn Cockrell). Each group, this is where the Landmark comes into the SGL_B name.

I just love history and have found I cannot 'see' something in print without having to read it :rolleyes:

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

Bethelassoc
04-14-2004, 09:40 AM
When these "words-only" books are used, it is almost always everyone singing the melody in unison (no harmony parts). I know what you mean. ORBs find it "frivolous" to sing in harmony. They feel that in unison, the church is singing with one voice. We harmonized our lined out singing back home. I enjoy the melodious sound of harmony.

Do you all have the CDs of ORB (I believe it is also Indian Bottom Association) songs? I have vol.1, but I know there is a second volume out now.

Also, I keep this website on hand, in case there are other media added to order:

http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/resource/chap13.html

Since we are on the topic of lined out singing, "Gaelic Psalms From Lewis" from Greentrax Recordings is an interesting CD that shows the origins of lined out singing from Scotland. It's in Gaelic, but you can hear the lining out. Lined out singing is the oldest religious a capella singing in the U.S.

Jeff Weaver
04-14-2004, 07:18 PM
As of 1987, there were seventy-three Old Regular churches, with a membership of 3285. The first association of churches which would become the Old Regular Baptists was formed in 1825. The New Salem Association was formed out of the Burning Spring A ssociation. Of the eight churches which originally made up the New Salem Association, only two remain. It was this association of churches that adopted the term Old Regular Baptist in 1892. They adopted a doctrine somewhere between the Calvinistic Primitive Baptists and the more Arminian Free Will and Missionary Baptists.
Dear Bro. Dallas.

I don't know where the quote came from, but since no one else has mentioned it, I will. The statistics above are goofy. There are many, many more Old Regular Baptists than 73 churches with 3285 members. This sounds like it might be one associational body. The last statistic I saw from some one who studied them intently was in the neighborhood of 18,000 members.

I also would like to point out there there is a separate group, known as Regular Baptist, or generically in the local area as Union Baptists, who are not affiliated with the GARB churches of the North. These Regular or Union Baptists are centered in Northwestern North Carolina, Southwestern Virginia and West Virginia. They are very similar in theology and practice to Old Regular Baptists, but there are some differences. There are around 200 of these churches in associations with the following names:

Union
Primitive
Mountain Union #1
Mountain Union #2
Little River #1
Little River #2
Little River #3
LIttle Valley
Friendship.
Mitchell's River

Additionally there were two other associations which were affiliated with these bodies in historic times, but have since become Southern Baptists, specifically the Stony Fork Association and the Blue Ridge Associations.

These associations were formed in the 1860's mostly by Primitive Baptists who had joined the Heroes of America or Union League, and were excommunicated for affiliating with "secret orders." These Primitive Baptists were joined by some early Southern Baptists who had like wise been turned out of their respective churches for the same offenses, or real or perceived crimes committed during the Civil War. All were Repulicans from their organizations. (That is why in Appalachia, almost all Primitive Baptists are Democrats and almost all Union Baptists are Republicans). In the beginnings of the Union Baptist movement, these bodies were very similar to Primitive Baptists, but as time progressed and the Missionary Baptists gathered strength in the mountains, they (the Union Baptists) tilted more toward that point of view.

In recent years there have been attempts to start a "Correspondence" between some of the Union Baptists and the Old Regular Baptists.

Jeff

rlvaughn
04-14-2004, 10:58 PM
Thanks, Bro. Jeff. I ran by that and didn't notice. Those statistics are probably for one association. In 1985 the New Salem association had about that many members, but not quite that many churches. In the 1990 Churches and Church Membership in the United States, by Glenmary and ASARB, 17 Old Regular Baptist associations were counted, with 326 churches and 15,218 members.

Jeff Weaver
04-14-2004, 11:28 PM
Bro. Robert

Thanks. Those numbers are more in line with my experience on the matter. I would assume that they do not include statistics for the "Union" Baptist bodies. BTW, do you have any recent numbers for those churches. I have some of them but they are out of date.

Frogman
04-15-2004, 03:12 AM
Thanks Brethren,
So does that mean this association is identified as 'Sovereign Grace' Old Regular Baptist instead of just Old Regular Baptist?

I once visited a GARBC church in Jasper Indiana while working there; they were probably low arminian.

What I am attempting to do (with realization that the breach is too wide for us to close) is to see the underlying causes in differences that separate us.

I am learning more and more that some of it is due to true doctrinal differences that cannot be dealt with in any other way; but that some of it is perhaps due more to language or dialect differences. This means that essential differences are due to the way we receive, understand and communicate our meaning by language.

It is not something I can change, but it fascinates me that many of these groups are not 'far' from one another.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Bethelassoc
04-15-2004, 10:12 AM
So does that mean this association is identified as 'Sovereign Grace' Old Regular Baptist instead of just Old Regular Baptist?
Bro. Dallas:

I agree with Bro. Vaughn that the association name is "Sovereign Grace", but they are Old Regular Baptist. They may be heavily calvinistic compared to some other ORBs but I'm assuming that that is their title, and they are not a different form of ORB.

Bro Vaughn:

And I would assume that they are called "Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ" as well.

Bethelassoc
04-15-2004, 10:16 AM
Also, here are the stats on ORBs that I found on adherents.com:

Total churches
326

Total Membership
19257

I don't how accurate it is, though.

Jeff Weaver
04-15-2004, 10:39 AM
I suspect that their statistics are toward the low end. I base this on their listings for Primitive Baptists which are under counted. Old Regular Baptists, in my experience, tend to be more elusive than we are.

Jeff

Jeff Weaver
04-15-2004, 10:42 AM
On the issue of the Sovereign Grace Old Regular Baptist Association. I have no knowledge of this body, however, the Bethel Association, which last account I had was not in correspondence with any other ORB body, was very nearly identical to Primitive Baptists, and some years ago there were discussions with them about switching over to a Primitive Baptist chain of fellowship. It fell through, however.

rlvaughn
04-15-2004, 11:03 AM
Bro. Jeff, I'll try to look when I get home, and see what I have on the Union Baptists. I would expect the Old Regulars are undercounted, but, IMO, probably not as undercounted as Primitives, based on the simple fact that there are more Primitive Baptists than Old Regulars. The count for the 17 associations in the study is accurate, because it is based on the records of those associations. The question, though, is just how many other associations and churches there are out there we don't know about.

Bro. David, the numbers on adherents.com is from the same source as I gave above - Churches and Church Membership in the United States 1990. The difference is that the number I gave is from the "baptized members" column and their number is from the "adherents" column. The study creates these two different columns of numbers for the purpose of comparisons between denominations. Membership in denominations that practice infant baptism and those that practice adult baptism only are not of the same type for comparison purposes. Baptists, and especially the "primitivistic" ones, will have a lower number because of people "involved", attending, etc. but not actually members. The "adherents" column trys to bridge that gap by accounting for the children and others who are similarly attending Baptist services but not counted by Baptists, while other groups are counting them as part of their church. This off the cuff non-scholarly explanation may make absolutely no sense. I'll try to look up the way the study explains it and post that later.

I also have a "guess" about the Sovereign Grace Association. I have never seen that name in anything about Old Regular Baptists. That makes me assume that they are a new association (but they could be just an old "undiscovered" body). Assuming they are new, I would guess that they have separated from the other Old Regular Baptists to follow a stronger "Calvinistic" position (based on the usual emphasis of the term Sovereign Grace). Just something to think about, but totally guesswork.

Squire Robertsson
04-15-2004, 11:09 AM
Just an aside on "words" only hymnals. Our Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist brethren carry that style of hymnal to their services. Mind you they also have (when they can) an piano acompanist (who is the one person (if any one) with a hymnal with music). The hymnals have over 500 hymns in them. "Back in The Day", folks copied out by hand their own hymnals (yeah, like the Communist Party would allow the free publication of such material). They do sing in harmony (nothing like a Slavic bass). Imagine if you would, a congragation of 400 voices singing to the glory of our God and King in four part harmony with only the words in front of them. graemlins/applause.gif

[ April 15, 2004, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]

Bethelassoc
04-15-2004, 11:16 AM
Old Regular Baptists, in my experience, tend to be more elusive than we are. How true. I find that elusiveness in the United Baptists, too. Right now, I'm finding out about more associations than I knew existed.

Communication between fellowships is lacking. What I admire about the Primitive Baptist is their tenacious work in keeping their history together. Even the ORB history has been documented better than Uniteds.

I guess that means there's some work to do. smile.gif

Bethelassoc
04-15-2004, 11:19 AM
Bro Vaughn:

I will try to contact one of the SGAs elders to see what they officially go by.

Jeff Weaver
04-15-2004, 06:10 PM
Just an aside on "words" only hymnals. Our Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist brethren carry that style of hymnal to their services. No to belabor this point, but Baptists of various flavors stripes are not the only groups which use or have used words only hymnals. I have examples from Methodist, PResbyterian, Congregational, Episcopal, and several other denominations which have no musical notation what ever. Yeah, I collect hymnals. :D

rlvaughn
04-15-2004, 10:36 PM
Here is a little "update" based on information from one of the elders in the SGA. The Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptists is a fairly recently organized association (didn't get the date), made up of three churches (and one recently organized one) which withdrew from the Northern New Salem Association based on what they felt were modernizing and arminian tendencies in the old association. This included an attempt to make all the churches change their element in the Lord's supper from wine to grape juice. They were "armed off" by the Mountain Liberty Association, so I assume they are in correspondence with them. "Sovereign Grace" is simply the name of the association like Northern New Salem, Mountain Liberty, Bethel, Thornton Union, etc. But it does have an interesting origin not particularly connected with any "Sovereign Grace" movements among other Baptists. The name comes from the second verse of "Every moment brings me nearer", a popular hymn (No. 315) in the E. D. Thomas hymn book.

Soon shall I be gone to glory,
Join the bright, angelic race;
There repeat the pleasing story,
I was saved by sovereign grace;
And forever,
View my loving Saviour's face.

This hymn is not too common in the books I have, but it is also in D. H. Goble's Primitive Baptist Hymn Book and the one compiled by Wilson Thompson. I would figure that Thomas may have drew heavily on Thompson for his hymn book, but that is just a guess.

The elder also said they consider themselves very close to old-line Primitive Baptists and "orthodox" United and Regular Baptists.

Brother David, I'm not trying to pre-empt you; I had e-mailed someone right after I first saw this thread, and just heard back today.

Frogman
04-16-2004, 03:16 AM
Bro. Vaughn, I just realized I have been spelling your name wrong, sorry. I have a cousin by marriage who spells his name Vaughan, but pronounces it Vaughn.

Would it be alright for me to post that information to the FGF forum? They may be interested to know it, they love history there and they are also all the time talking about song books, you notice how this missionary baptist grew silent in that didn't ya :D I can't carry a tune even in a song book. I wasn't looking for a piano, honest :rolleyes:

Bro. Dallas

Squire Robertsson
04-16-2004, 10:57 AM
Just as an aside on the "wine" v. unfermented grape juice question, though my home church is in the total abstinence camp, the EC-B do use wine in their rememberances of the Lord's Supper.

rlvaughn
04-16-2004, 05:03 PM
Brother Dallas, I don't mind your quoting my posts on FGF forum. I would be interested to know what forum that is. I'm not familiar with the initials.

About the name - I think Vaughan, Vaughn, Vawn, Vaun, and probably even Baughan are probably all of the same origin. I've always heard that the Vaughns and Vaughans were originally the same family. And, though I've heard our name pronounced different ways, I'm not aware of any difference in pronunciation based on the spelling. Here we pronounce it "von", kind of like the German "von Trapp" etc. Some people pronounce it "vawn" as would rhyme with "lawn". I even get called "Bond" sometimes.

Squire, I would wonder if the grape juice view isn't predominantly an American thing spawned from the temperance movement?

Squire Robertsson
04-16-2004, 05:21 PM
I would tend to think so. IIRC, the Welch of Welch's grape juice was a tee-totaling Methodist Bishop. To me the severity of the allergic reaction most Baptists have to fermented grape juice at the Table indicates the severity of the problems alcohol led to in the 19th century.

I know some Russians look at us and see our grape juice as some kind of heresy. "Brat, Vat part of vine, do not you understand?"

Frogman
04-16-2004, 07:46 PM
Dear Brother Robert,
FGF is FreeGraceFellowship, a yahoo based email group of Old School Primitive Baptists. It is moderated by Elders Gene and Mark Thomas.

I just thought these brethren may be interested to know the comments of the SGOR elder himself.

I was invited last spring to join the group and have been blessed a great deal by the discussion there, although there are still minor and a few major differences between my 'missionary' stand and that of the old school, I am much closer than you would think to them and I am almost convinced the greatest difference in our views is in language usage and understanding.

Thanks for the information,
Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Jeff Weaver
04-16-2004, 08:33 PM
Squire

Your recollection matches mine on the Welch's issue. Don't know if it is common rumour or truth though.

Jeff

Bethelassoc
04-18-2004, 08:00 PM
I received an email from Elder Slone. He said that I can post what he told me.

Our Association name is Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptist of JESUS CHRIST.

We are Old Regular Baptist that hold to the original doctrine, faith and order of the Old Regular Baptist.

8/01/1998 an arm from the Mountain Liberty ORB ASSN.

We correspond with both Old Regular and Regular Primitive Associations, we preach with orthodox ministers of like faith( Old School Baptist) some associations we correspond with Sandlick, Bethel, Mountain Liberty, Thorton Union, Mountain Valley, we have an open door on correspondence with in the Old Baptist ranks , if an association or church has like articles of faith and holds to an Old School practice(old United, Regular, Primitive)

Bethelassoc
04-18-2004, 08:15 PM
Brother David, I'm not trying to pre-empt you; I had e-mailed someone right after I first saw this thread, and just heard back todayNo Problem Bro Vaughn.

I think we're all trying to get to the truth. smile.gif

I'm glad to to be able to get more information, so I can update my list of ORB Associations. I am waiting on one that has info of some ORB that came from United Baptist.

Jeff Weaver
04-18-2004, 10:20 PM
Dear Bethel Assoc.

Thanks for the input from the SGAORB group. Speaking as a Primitive type person, I think they will have to wait awhile before any of our folks would "correspond" with them. The common appelation for them around here is "softshells." But I do have a question, don't know if you can answer or not, but it would be what would prohibit fellowship, if the answer is what I suspect it is. That being, do they believe in a universal or particular atonement. Most (not all) of the ORB's around these parts believe in a universal atonement. If they believe in a particular atonement (election), then there might be room to talk. A caveat to that would be to discover whether they believe that faith comes before regeneration or regeneration before faith. Another sticky issue with us.

(In the for what it is worth category, most of my father's family are Union or Regular Baptists).

Bethelassoc
04-19-2004, 10:45 AM
Bro Weaver:

I would have to venture to say that if they are holding to the "original doctrine", then they may be limited, but given the ORB history, I don't know for sure.

I do know some Uniteds that agree with limited, but wouldn't go so far as predestined. IMO, it depends on how you explain it.

I hope to look into the history of the Union Baptists sometime. I know that there've been some here in MO back in the late 1800s.

Bethelassoc
04-19-2004, 01:32 PM
Bro. Vaughn:

I forgot to mention that I did find my Regular Baptist Book!

The official title

History of Regular Baptist and Their Ancestors and Accessors

by Rufus Perrigan
Copyright 1961
Haysi, Virginia

The book sporadically mentions the baptist's "succession" and quotes writings that I've not been able to track down.

More importantly, there are chapters solely dedicated to associations like Salem, Thornton Union, Sardis, etc. with history of their churches, and obituaries of their people.

I'm gonna try to go through the book thoroughly.

Frogman
04-19-2004, 03:09 PM
Just found a book a while ago at the Goodwill (where I get most of my books).

HARMONY HEAVEN
James D. Vaughan
Mucic Publisher
Lawrenceburg, Tn.
CW--1934 by J.D. Vaughan

"Our 1935 Book For Sunday Schools, Singing Schools, Revivals, Conventions and General Use in Christian Worship.

I know it is not in keeping with the song books discussed in this thread, but thought I would tell yall about it. The PB are the only ones I know of having Singing Schools, maybe in earlier years, others did have too.

Would this book have been of interest to a Regular or Primitive Baptist? The other labels for use aside?

Some authors are:
Adger M. Pace
W.B. Walbert
J.T. Cook
J. W. Vaughan
and a whole list of others.

Bro. Dallas

Jeff Weaver
04-19-2004, 03:25 PM
Bro. Dallas.

It wouldn't have been of interest to Regulars or Primitives, as neither have Sunday Schools, Revivals, or Conventions.

As for singing schools, I think that might be more of a regional thing. Around here, (Appalachia) all sorts of denominations had singing schools, but most have disappeared in this area.

Jeff

rlvaughn
04-19-2004, 03:29 PM
Bro. Dallas, I doubt that book would have been of much interest to Primitive Baptists, especially in the 1930s. The music, songs, and books of the Vaughan Music Company were in line with the gospel singing conventions in the south - more of the style of the Stamps Quartet, etc.. Also the words are often of a more Arminian doctrine than acceptable among Primitive and Regular Baptists. Shape note singing schools were a quite common summer event in these parts, though by the 1960s they had begun to fizzle out. I remember a few held in the mid 1970s, though. These singing schools were usually more associated with a singing convention than with a denomination or local churches (though the schools were often held in church buildings). Nevertheless, songs from books such as "Harmony Heaven" have found their way into Primitive Baptist songbooks through the years.

I believe what was the James D. Vaughan Music and Publishing Company was sold and eventually absorbed into the publishing arm of the "Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee". Here's a link to an article on gospel music of that genre:

Handbook of Texas: Gospel Music (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/GG/xbg2.html)

rlvaughn
04-19-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Bethelassoc:
I hope to look into the history of the Union Baptists sometime. I know that there've been some here in MO back in the late 1800s.If memory serves, the Baptist Old Path Association of Missionary Baptists in southwestern Missouri came into existence because of the North/South division. I believe they came out of the Polk County Association (Baptist Old Path being the "Union" group, and Polk County being the southern sympathizers). Now both of those associations are unaffiliated missionary Baptists in correspondence with one another (but organized on no level beyond the local association).

These "Union" associations can probably be found in all of the border states. What appears to be unique about those in the Appalachias is that they have continued a separate existence. I'm not sure there is much "real" difference between them and other Regular Baptists in the same area. Bro. Jeff can probably speak better to that.

Bethelassoc
04-19-2004, 03:53 PM
Bro. Dallas:

If you have an interest to look more into the old baptist singing, especially ORB, you may want to look at the work of Jeff Todd Titon. He along with another colleague (can't remember his name) worked on the history and make up of this style of lined out hymnody.

This work, along with the help of the members of Indian Bottom Association, produced the CD Songs of the Old Regular Baptists: Lined-Out Hymnody from Southeastern Kentucky

Some of Titon's work:

http://www.wku.edu/kentuckyfolkweb/Pages/KYFolklife_Titon.html

Frogman
04-19-2004, 07:55 PM
Thanks Brethren,
I didn't think this book, especially in reading some of the lyrics would be of use to Primitive Baptists, I don't know as much of the Old Regulars however.

I may be wrong, but I am of the opinion from the understanding I have been able to gain through what I have read that Kentucky Baptists owe their heritage to the Regulars, whether Old Regular or just Regular.

But, this may just be my understanding of our particular history here. Although I believe John Taylor's book is a very strong indicator of how things were and how they changed.


Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Jeff Weaver
04-19-2004, 09:44 PM
I'm not sure there is much "real" difference between them and other Regular Baptists in the same area. Bro. Jeff can probably speak better to that. Differences between "Mountain Union" Baptists and "Old Regular Baptists." Bear in mind the official names of Mountain Union Baptists is "Regular Baptists," omitting the "Old" from their title.

1st. The origins of the "Mountain Union" Baptists and the "Old Regular Baptists" is different. The former developed out of political disagreements during the American Civil War. The majority of the Mountain Union people were formerly Primitive Baptists but not all. Some left the Southern Baptist church at the same time for the same political issues. This blending, led the Mountain Union away from the strongly "Calvinistic" Primitive Baptist theology, although some members will in private tell you they are in doctrinal agreement with the Primitives. So, they have a 4-point calvinistic theology and primitive baptist practice, with three notable exceptions. Membership in secret socities is explicitly permitted. Sunday Schools, while not common, are not unheard of, and thirdly feetwashing is explicitly a test of fellowship. Participation if one is able is expected (demanded). This small group of Baptists is splintered into three factions, with very minor differences among them. Most of these "differences" are more those of "personality" than of doctrine or practice, but of course they will tell you otherwise.

Many of the Mountain Union folks in the Reconstruction period were quite active in helping the freedmen set up their own churches. In my last post on who the "Mountain Union" associations were, I omitted a couple of African American Associations. The Mountain Union people set up the "New Covenant Baptist Association" and the Blue Ridge Baptist Association in the late 1860s. Both were African-American bodies, but both have drifted far from the principles on which they were established that they are no longer in "correspondence" with one another. I went to a couple of the services in the New COvenant Baptist Association when I was a kid.

Old Regular Baptists originated in the 1890s in Appalachia over the extent of the atonement, whether limitied or general. Up until this time many primitivistic baptist churches were known as simply regular, or regular primitive baptists. As the sides were drawn the "general atonement" folks added "Old" as a prefix to the appelation regular. The limited atonement folks sometimes dropped the term "regular" and just were known thereafter as Primitive. Some of the official consituting documents of these churches are convoluted. Some in the "Old Regular" Camp were constituted as "Regular Primitive" or simply "Primitive" and some in the "Primitive" fellowship groups were constitued as "Regular." Confusing ain't it.

At any rate, this group, principally located in along the Kentucky border in Virginia, in Kentucky proper and places where these folks migrated, are differentiated from the Mountain Union churches in that they do not generally accept members of secret socities, do not have, nor tolerate "Sabbath Schools" and are not as strict about making feetwashing a test of fellowship.

Neither group, in general historical terms, would have a paid ministry, practice revivalism, utilize musical instruments. The majority of both groups are essentially Primitive Baptists who believe that the sinner must accept Jesus, and that Christ tasted death for everyman.

I should add that something has taken place among both the "Mountain Union" and "Old Regular Baptist" groups in the last few years. Several churches have withdrawn from their former associational affiliations, and there are now independent churches. These churches seem to be drifting toward more modern ways of doing things, and some are reported to have drifted into charismatic ways. One near my mother's house, put a steeple on the old building. (A building constructed in the 1840s BTW). A cousin of mine said it just ruined the "Ambiance" of the place.

My father, grandparents, and great grandparents on the paternal side were all members of the "Mountain Union."

Some scholars have lumped the "Mountain Union" in with the "old" regular baptists. There are few differences, but there are some. The folks who attend these Mountain Union churches do not refer to themselves as "Regular Baptists" with each other or folks in the community, but as "Union Baptists." Some would identify themselves to outsiders like Howard Dorgan as "Regular Baptists."

More confusing than muddy water.?

Jeff

rlvaughn
04-19-2004, 11:06 PM
Bro. Jeff, instead of the "Old" Regulars, I had in mind some associations that simply use the term "Regular Baptist" - such as Enterprise (with churches at least in Ohio and Kentucky), Little River (Grayson, Alleghany counties, VA), Little Valley (Monroe County, WV), and one called the Primitive Association of Regular Baptists (Wilkesboro area, NC). Are you familiar with any of these? I think some of them correspond with Union Baptist associations, so may consider themselves Union Baptists, even though the term is not used officially in their minutes. There is a Regular association in northwest Arkansas, which is similar, but I know of no connections between them and the churches back east (though their origins from Primitive Baptist is similar). Some of their churches use the term "Regular Primitive".

Jeff Weaver
04-20-2004, 07:14 AM
Bro. Robert, yes these folks are all in the same correspondence groups.

In 1867, the Mountain Union Association was established, by members who had been excommunicated from the Senter and Mountain Primitive Baptist Associations in Ashe and Alleghany Co., NC and some from Grayson Co., VA. In 1868, the Primitive Association of Regular Baptist Association was formed from members who had withdrawn from the Roaring River District Primitive Baptist Association. These two associations were joined by an association that was formerly missionary, the Stony Fork Association in Watauga Co., NC. These were the original three bodies in the "Mountain Union Movement." In the 1890s the Primitive and the Mountain Union Associations divided for convenience, spawning the Little River Association (daughter of the Mountain Union); and the Mitchell's River and Blue Ridge Associations (daughters of the Primitive Association of Regular Baptists.) About this time the Stony Fork Association reverted to its former Missionary Baptist affiliations, so at this point in time ca. 1900 their bodies were:

Mountain Union (1867) - Ashe Co., NC & Grayson Co., VA
Primitive Association (1868) - Wilkes Co., NC
Mitchell's River Association (1890) - Surry Co., NC
Blue Ridge Association (ca. 1895) - Wilkes Co., NC

All four of these associations "corresponded" with one another, and all was well.

In 1910 the Mountain Union association had an unpleasant division and six churches withdrew forming the Macedonia Associaiton of Regular Baptists. This group (the Macedonia) wanted open communion, while the others insisted on close communion. The Macedonia Association ceased to exist after their 1916 session.

In 1935, the Mountain Union Association had another unpleasant division, and another group of churches left, and joined with some of the remnants of the old Macedonia Association. The issue at this time was women preachers and a general drift toward arminian doctrine on the part of those that were expelled at that time. Those churches that were expelled formed the Christian Unity Baptist Association. As you know this group was recognized for awhile as a completely distinct Baptist subdenomination.

In 1938 the Little River Association had an unpleasant division, resulting in the formation of the Union Association centered principally in Alleghany Co., NC. The Primitive Association in Wilkes County sided with the the Union Association and the Mountain Union Association sided with the Little River Association, so at this point there are two distinct fellowship groups. About this same time, the Mitchell's River Association was cut off from the others, and the Blue Ridge Association converted from "Union Baptist" to "Southern Baptist." So, at 1940 or so, their fellowship looked something like this

Group A
Mountain Union
Little River

Group B
Union
Primitive

Group C
Mitchell's River

In the mid-1940s the Little River Association fractured again (twice), so by 1950 there were three associations using the name "Little River Association of Regular Baptists." One of these bodies dissolved, and some members were reconciled back into one or the other of the Little River bodies, and a good number switched to become Primitive Baptists at this time.

During this time several people from this area had migrated to West Virginia to work in the coal mines, had established several churches there, formed their own association. In 1950, their fellowship lines looked like this:

Group A
Mountain Union
Little River#1
Little Valley

Group B
Union
Primitive

Group C
Mitchell's River

Group D
Little River #2

This Arrangement held until the late 1950s, when the Mountain Union Association divided over personalities, and the body divided "right down the middle." Two bodies came into being both claiming to be the Original Mountain Union Association of Regular Baptists, and the slightly larger body added the term "Original" to thier official name. The Little Vine Association in West Virginia divided about the same time, so in 1960 this arrangement came into being, and is still in existence.

Membership stats are educated guesses on my part, as I don't have any of their most recent minutes.

Group A:
Mountain Union - 12 churches - ca. 1000 members
Little River #1 - 6 churches - 500 members
Little Valley - 5 churches - 150 members

Group B
Union - 15 churches - 2000 members
Primitive - 20 churches - 2000 members
Original Mountain Union - 10 chuches - 1300 members
Little Vine (division from Little Valley) - 3 churches - 100 members

Group C
Mitchell's River - 5 churches - 400 members

Group D
Little River #2 - 5 churches - 400 members

So there are about 81 churches with about 7800 members. There are currently bodies in the following places:

Ashe, Alleghany, Watauga, Wilkes, and Surry Co., NC
Grayson, Smyth and Craig Co., VA
Monroe, Mercer and Greenbrier Co., WV
HArford and Cecil Co., MD
York and Chester Co., PA
Johnson Co., TN

About 5 years ago there was a movement afoot to put everything aside and reconcile, but it has so far come to naught.

As far as I know there is no real difference between these four fellowship groups.

Jeff Weaver
04-20-2004, 07:16 AM
I forgot to add, that in the 1915 era, the Mountain Union, et.al. corresponded with a body in Kentucky known as the "Green River Regular Baptist Association." Don't know if it still exists or not. There was a migration from Appalachia at that time to South central Kentucky, where the Green River body was located.

Jeff

Bethelassoc
04-20-2004, 08:13 AM
Bro Vaughn:

Our association (Bethel) corresponds with Enterprise Association. Some call them Enterprise Baptists.

Bethelassoc
04-20-2004, 08:49 AM
Here's part of my tie-in to the Old Regulars:

"LITTLE MARTHA CHURCH ESTABLISHED NOVEMBER 24, 1951

This church is located at Galdia, KY and was an arm given off from the Philadelphia Church (Union Assoc?) to organize this new body the members are as follows. Brothers W. H. Wireman (Great Uncle), Austin Allen, Leck Sheppard, Rosco Stephens, and sisters, Ada Wireman, Josie Allen, Telia Sheppard, Delia Jane Stephens (Delila; Great Aunt), Martha Wireman (Great-Grandmother), Celia Brown, and Julia Hicks (Julie; Great Aunt).... after being fully questioned upon the Articles of Faith and Constitution of the New Salem Association and found to be orthodox as they appointed their regular meeting time the fourth Saturday and Sunday in each month and has increased from 11 when organized to, as of 1960, 31 in number with M.H. Wireman, clerk."

Excerpt from History of Regular Baptist, pg. 176

Bethelassoc
04-20-2004, 11:28 AM
Bros Vaughn and Weaver:

What do you all know about Powell River and Three Forks Associations? They are mentioned in Perrigan's Regular Baptist book.

I think that they are/were called Regular Primitive, but I wondered if they were called Old Regular at anytime.

Jeff Weaver
04-20-2004, 12:36 PM
Re: The Three Forks Association. This association, formed in 1851, would have been known as "regular" Baptists prior to 1869, when the term "Primitive" was adopted in this part of Appalachia. This body was the only daughter Association of the Stony Creek Association, which was a daughter association of the Washington District Regular Primitive. The Washington Association was formed in 1811, as a daughter of the Holston Association, formed in 1786, which in turn was a daughter of the Sandy Creek Assn. I belong to a church in the St. Clair District, which is also a daughter of the Washington Association. The Three Forks of Powell's Valley Association is a Universalist body.

The Powell's Valley Association, is badly fractured, and there are three different Primitive Baptist bodies by that name, all relatively large for Primitive Baptists. One of the three is progessive Primitive baptist. As far as I can recall from their minutes they never used the term "Old regular" but were known as Regular, again prior to 1869.

Hope it helps. I am at work at the moment, going on memory, not on documented evidence.

Jeff.

Bethelassoc
04-20-2004, 01:03 PM
The Washington Association was formed in 1811, as a daughter of the Holston AssociationDoes this mean that since Holston was United Baptist at one time, and given that Washington was formed in 1811, it's a pretty good indicator that it too was United Baptist?

Also, Is Powell River the same a Powell Valley?

Thanks

Frogman
04-20-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Jeff Weaver:
I forgot to add, that in the 1915 era, the Mountain Union, et.al. corresponded with a body in Kentucky known as the "Green River Regular Baptist Association." Don't know if it still exists or not. There was a migration from Appalachia at that time to South central Kentucky, where the Green River body was located.

Jeff Dear Brother Jeff,
I will try to check this out, I think there were (2) Green River Associations one was United Baptist, but it could have come from the 'Regular' and united later with separates.

The church I attended as a child and young adult was 'Cane Valley Baptist'. It seems they were probably separate, but they were, I have learned since associated with the Green River Association; it would make since, Green River Resevoir Dam was only about a mile from the church building :D .

I will find out for sure and let you know. If it is the same association, I believe they are still in existence.

Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Bethelassoc
04-20-2004, 02:20 PM
Here's some history on GRA United Baptist:

The Green River Association Of United Baptist was formed (1799) from a committee of nine men from the associations of Elkhorn (Regular Baptist) and South Kentucky (Separate Baptist). They agreed to lay aside the Regular and Separate names and called themselves the "United Brethren of the Baptist Faith", shortened to be known as the United Baptist.

A faction from Green River called themselves Original Green River, which was in 1874. It was known as the "Moon Faction" (just 3 churches) and didn't get anywhere.

Green River is considered Landmark and they correspond with like United Baptists and Missionary Baptists. The churches are concentrated in Edmonson Co, KY.

I'll see what I can find on GRA Regular Baptist.

Jeff Weaver
04-20-2004, 02:37 PM
The Green River Assn. of Regular Baptists mentioned before would have been in the Creston, KY area. I dont have a geographic frame of reference for the ones you fellows are mentioning.

Jeff Weaver
04-20-2004, 03:03 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Washington Association was formed in 1811, as a daughter of the Holston Association
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does this mean that since Holston was United Baptist at one time, and given that Washington was formed in 1811, it's a pretty good indicator that it too was United Baptist?

Also, Is Powell River the same a Powell Valley?

Thanks Sorry about the Powell River/Powell Valley thing. There is a Powell's Valley Regular Primitive Baptist Association, never heard of a Powell's River Primitive Assn. I think Mr. Perrigine made a typo there, unless he intended to say something about the Three Forks of Powell's River Primitive Baptist Association, usually shortened to just Three Forks. At any rate, there is a typo somewhere in the wood pile.

As for the Holston, don't know if it ever considered itself "United" or not. THey didn't publish early minutes, and the records are in a ledger, been years since I looked at it.

Frogman
04-20-2004, 03:20 PM
thanks Bethelassoc,
Cane Valley Baptist is located in northern Adair County, near to Green and Taylor County. The Green River Lake Resevoir is there in Taylor and Adair County.

I now live in Barren county, near the Barren River.

Barren is between Edmonson and Adair. All are in SouthCentral Ky. We are also landmark missionary Baptists.

We are 'independent' because many are no longer Sovereign Grace and we are, many around the Glasgow area consider us hard because of this and that we still practice discipline (not that others do).

The Green river Assoc. is not one our church was ever involved with to my knowledge. An older pastor just told me once that Cane Valley Baptist use to be in the Green River Association.

I have visited there once since joining the body at Grider Memorial Baptist. They are low arminian and have a seminary trained pastor, (this latter was very very important to them, though I was young when there, I remember this issue caused a division in the church).

At the time, I thought all baptists were the same, either separate, or SBC boy, I didn't know nothing did I :D so I thought this group was 'separate' because there was no recognition of any association.

There is a book here in our local library reference room on the Green River Assoc. I will get some notes from it and post them when I have the chance.

Bro. Dallas

For geographical reference, I am 75 miles west of Somerset and 35 miles northeast of Bowling Green. Edmonson County is just north of Bowling Green, though I can't remember if it borders on Barren or not, seems like it does border our northwestern county line, but I would have check it to be sure.

Bethelassoc
04-20-2004, 04:00 PM
As for the Holston, don't know if it ever considered itself "United" or not. THey didn't publish early minutes, and the records are in a ledger, been years since I looked at it. Hmm.. I need to find documentation as well. I've been going on the assumption they were since they formed several UB associations in TN.

I'll have to look more into that one. That will definately change my research.

Bethelassoc
04-21-2004, 08:54 AM
About Holston:

Their "make-up" as an association is United Baptist.

According to a source, "Technically speaking, Holston Association was United Baptist from its founding in 1786 since its charter churches included maybe half a dozen Separate Baptist and one Calvinistic Regular Baptist churches, and they adopted the Philadelphia Confession as 'a general statement of principles' without binding any of their members to its strict observation. The second moderator, William Murphy, was slightly more Calvinistic than the first moderator, Tidence Lane."

They didn't have it in their title. My association, Bethel, has always been United Baptist, but didn't have that in the title until around 15 years after its establishment. Of course, when it did so, it drew the lines between it, the Primitive Baptists and the Missionary Baptists that attended there.

Bethelassoc
04-21-2004, 09:50 AM
Me again. smile.gif

I found a statement by the Old Regulars that looks into a possible correspondance with the daughter associations of Burning Springs. (I've tried to correct the spelling, but not the grammar.)

THIS WAS A RECORD OF A MEETING WITH THE UNITED BAPTIST AS TO TRY TO WORK OUT A WAY TO RETAIN CORRESPONDANTS WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN RESTORED

We the Church of Jesus Christ, known as Regular Baptists composed of New Salem, Union, Sardis, and Kyova Associations. At our regular session in the year on thousand, nine-hundred thirty-seven, hours of their session have their consideration, and advisibility or and each of the above names of the Association, during the business possibility of making an effort to revise a Christian Correspondence and fellowship with the various United Baptist Association: namely, Paint Union, Blain Union, Zion, Bethlehem, New Hope, Iron Hill, and Olive Associations. (I’ve not heard of this last association)

We do hereby submit the following proposition for consideration of the above named churches or United Baptist Associations who will meet with us by delegated and authorized representatives at the Buffalo Church of United Baptist, Johnson County, Kentucky on Friday before the first Saturday in October, 1937.

First realizing that both we, the regular Baptist and the United Baptist Brethren come from the same original association, and at that time were the same identical people in organization, Faith and Practice of Doctrine and at that time and for many years thereafter corresponded, and had mutual Fellowship until discord due to practices and indulgences and perhaps Doctrine which things served our Fellowship and Correspondence and Fellowship was totally destroyed and severed between us and the United Baptist Association.

II
1. That we do not deem the name “Regular” nor “United” essential and we are willing to allow the same name to exist if it pleases.

1. We will not Fellowship open Communion or Sunday Schools taught or conducted through Sectarian Literature, and we believe that the only ordained Medium by which men and women are taught is by God-sent men preaching under the demonstration of the Holy Ghost therefore we strictly oppose and so-called Auxillaries of the churches. Also, we denounce the use of what is known as Erected Altars or Maurners Benches, as we have neither example or precept of such, in the New Testament Scriptures.

1. We feel right certain that it is not in harmony with the scriptures for our Brethren to enter into a covenant with such unbelievers and such conditions in the past have been detrimental to the progress of the church, we say that we do not believe that our Brethren should be affiliated with Secret Societies or Orders.
(This next part is interesting)
2. We are opposed to doctrine as advocated by some of our United Baptist Brethren that they know beyond a doubt personally that they are saved, but we do believe that we are saved by Hope, which Hope is the Anchor of the Soul-Christ being our Hope.

1. We do not believe in partaking of other men’s sins, by preaching with and encouraging false doctrines.

Therefore we will not labor with nor in conjunction with those who are not orthodox in Doctrine and Practice.

J.C. Swindle, Moderator
John Hopkins, Asst. Moderator
H.M. Mullins, Clerk

p.271 - History of Regular Baptist, Perrigan

This agreement was met for a while, anyway. Union corresponded with most of the United Baptists mentioned.

Bethelassoc
04-25-2004, 11:26 PM
Again with Perrigan:

It seems that he makes a contadiction in his book. He mentions on one page that Kyova Association came about from a split within Bethlehem United Baptist Association:

So there are two called Bethlehem. Bethlehem split again about 1910 over secret orders. The side who left are now called Kyova Association of Regular Baptists. pg. 35

And in other places, he makes these statements:

pg. 32
The New Salem Association organized the Kyova Association in 1924

(concerning the daughter associations of New Salem) pg. 136:

In 1924, an arm was given to organize the Kyova consisting of the following churches:

I tend to believe the latter statements than the first. Unless this group joined up with New Salem in order to be an arm off of them instead of Bethlehem, there's been a mistake.

What do you all think?

Frogman
04-29-2004, 02:33 AM
Dear Brethren,
Because we have made mention of the Green River Association, I thought I would post this article of faith here.

The Green River Association was constituted in Warren County Ky [Bowling Green].

Articles of Faith of the Green River Association
Adopted at her constitution at the Sinking Creek Meeting House,
Warren County, Ky., June 1800
1. We believe in one only True and Living God, and that there are a trinity of persons in the God Head, the Father, Son., and Holy Ghost, and yet that there are not three Gods, but one God.

2. We believe that the scripture of the Old and New Testaments are the word of God, and the only rule of faith and practice.

3. We believe in the fall of Adam, and the imputation of his sin to his posterity, the corruption of human nature, and the impotency of man to recover himself by his own free will ability. 4. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and that good works are the fruit of faith, and follow after justification, and only justify us in the sight of men and angels, and are evidences of our gracious state.

5. We believe that the saints shall persevere in Grace, and that not one of them shall finally be lost.

6. We believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead and a general or universal judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked will be eternal.


Respecting the Gospel order -
7. We believe that the visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful persons, who have obtained fellowship with each other and have given themselves up to the Lord and one another, having agreed to keep up a Godly discipline according to the rules of the Gospel.

8. We believe that Jesus Christ is the great Head of the Church, and that the government thereof is with the body.

9. We believe that water baptism and the Lords Supper are ordinances of the Lord, and to be continued by his church til His second corning.

10. We believe that true believers are the only subject of baptism, and that dipping is the only mode.

11. We believe that none but regularly baptized church members have a right to commune at the Lords Table.

(Copied from the 1800 minutes of the Green River Association at the Library of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Ky. These 11 Articles of Faith also appear in the records of three of the oldest churches in South-Central Kentucky: Mill Creek Baptist Church, Monroe County; Clear Fork Baptist Church, Clinton County; Casey's Fork Baptist Church, Cumberland County.)

[Taken from Cawton and Warnell, PioneerBaptist Church Records of South-Central Kentucky and the Upper Cumberland of Tennessee, 1799-1899, rpt. 1987. jrd]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bethelassoc
04-29-2004, 09:52 AM
Taken from Cawton and Warnell, PioneerBaptist Church Records of South-Central Kentucky and the Upper Cumberland of Tennessee, 1799-1899, rpt. 1987. jrd This is a book that I am definately going to get. I have a contact that knows where to get it.

I also had GRA down for starting in 1800, but was told by some GRA members that they started in 1799 in Barren Co., at the old Mulkey Meeting House.

I definately need to look into this more. smile.gif

David

Frogman
04-29-2004, 11:09 AM
The Old Mulkey Meeting house is in Monroe County Ky. [Tompkinsville], East of Glasgow [Barren Co.].

They are having a festival, this year marks their Bi-Centennial.

I will try to visit there and will also search our local Library for primary sources.

There is a sign on mainstreet in Glasgow directing travellers to the route Ky. Hwy. 90 east (also Hwy 63) which will take them to the meeting house. The building may be very near the county line as the two are adjoining.

Bro. Dallas

Here is a link to the history of the Mulkey Meeting House:

Mulkey Meeting House (http://www.therestorationmovement.com/mulkeymtnghse.htm)

According to this link, the county of Monroe was previously part of Barren County, so I learned something else. It also appears that this group quickly left the Baptist ranks for the Campbellite camp, led by John Mulkey himself.

Links from a google search:

Mulkey History (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Old+Mulkey+Meeting+House)

[ April 29, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

Bethelassoc
04-29-2004, 11:48 AM
According to this link, the county of Monroe was previously part of Barren County, so I learned something else. It also appears that this group quickly left the Baptist ranks for the Campbellite camp, led by John Mulkey himself.I'm not surprised. I've noticed in my research of the United Baptists where Campbell left his mark in many of the associations, changing some over to his following; leaving others in a mess.

Thanks for the update. I'm interested in hearing the outcome.


On another note -

Bro. Dallas:

Are there any ORBs in your area?

Frogman
04-29-2004, 01:01 PM
Dear Bethelassoc,
The closest we have is 1 PB congregation, in my visits to them I have been able to learn they stand on the historic PB faith and practice denying absolutism and two-seedism. Where these are not historic PB beliefs, forgive me, I am only stating what they have related to me. I think from my readings though this congregation would be considered by most to be in order.

We have mostly Landmark MB's; SBC's, 1 Gen. Bapt. Sep.Baptists, Independent Baptist, 1 'Full Gospel' Baptist, many of these declare their stand by S/Grace, while in practice they line up with Arminianism at best, in some cases, perhaps you can guess correctly the slope of the matter as well, these are moving from historic Baptist principles and really are presenting a form of 'new-lightism'.

IMHO at least.

I have considered gathering infomation on the Baptist groups in Barren County and making it available in our local library and online, I think that is a study I will pursue.

I will also get the information on the Mulkey Meeting House as soon as I can.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

rlvaughn
04-29-2004, 01:30 PM
Cawton and Warnell, Pioneer Baptist Church Records of South-Central Kentucky and the Upper Cumberland of Tennessee, 1799-1899, rpt. 1987

Y'all might be interested to know that Bro. Warnell is (or at least was) a member of a church in the New Salem Association of Old Regular Baptists, and was the clerk of the association.

Bro. Dallas, as far as historic Primitive Baptists go, I think most historians can agree on Two-Seedism being a new innovation. As far as "absolutism", I think you can find varying degrees of that among the Particular Baptists in general, and among the Primitive Baptists in particular. The Primitive Baptists divided over the issue of "Absolute Predestination" here in Texas around 1900 (although I think it was an issue that stewed for several years before it boiled over). Before that, those who held varying degrees on the issue were all one body.

Frogman
04-29-2004, 01:44 PM
Thanks Brother Vaughn,
I just reread my post, I mean the body here in Barren Co. do not believe two-seedism and I am pretty sure they reject absolutism. Though maybe in degrees as you point out. We have that among MB's also; and though I have not fully embraced it, I find I am drawn towards it.

Bro. Dallas

Frogman
04-30-2004, 08:59 AM
Dear Bethelassoc,
Thanks for providing me with the links to your research. I have enjoyed reading of the history of United Baptists.

I have also printed your information. I live in Barren Co. Ky. but have never heard of the Barren River #1 or #2 Assocs.

I also have ties to Wayne Co. Ky. was raised in Adair Co.

I am planning to try to add to your information regarding some of the Ky. Associations through resources here on the WKU campus. I will send you any information I can find.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Bethelassoc
04-30-2004, 03:44 PM
Bro Dallas:

I appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks!

Another ORB question:

Can somebody direct me to where I can obtain minute books from their associations? I will include ex-ORBs,like Burning Springs, as well.

Bethelassoc
05-03-2004, 11:13 AM
Another bit of information:

You can also buy video tapes of ORB documentaries from various places. I have a copy of "In the Good Old Fashioned Way" by Appalshop, Whitesburg, KY (1973).

I purchased another video from Kevin Balling of Appalachian State University
http://www.asucom.appstate.edu/balling.html called "While the Ages Roll On" (1991).

And yet another video I have yet to purchase from KET public television:

World of Our Own: Kentucky Folkways...Customs and Beliefs ($23.90 w/s&h)
Call: 800.945.9167, Fax: 859.258.7399
KET, Tape Duplication

There is one segment on it that talks about the Old Regulars.

I also have a DVD called "That High Lonesome Sound" that has a small segment on the Old Regulars. http://800-buy-movies.com/altdvdgr/gr205763D1.htm

David

rlvaughn
05-04-2004, 09:03 PM
Bro. David, I can get you names and addresses that are fairly recent for clerks and/or moderators of several Old Regular Associations. E-mail or pm me, and I'll look them up.

Bethelassoc
05-05-2004, 09:27 AM
Bro Vaughn:

I'll do that. Thanks.

BTW, I should be receiving a minute book from SGA soon.

Jeff Weaver
05-05-2004, 02:31 PM
Bro. David

When you get your minute, please let me know who they correspond with. I inquired at church last Sunday with some of the fellows who travel more than I do, if they have run into any of these fellows. Concensus was they were not sure. If they are meeting with members in the Sandlick or Mates Creek, I'd like to know who, and inquire of them, their impressions of these folks.

Jeff Weaver

Bethelassoc
05-05-2004, 02:50 PM
Bro. Jeff:

I'll let you know asap.

BTW,I was told that they tried to correspond with New Hope Association of United Baptists, but NH said they would only correspond if they dropped all other correspondance. Needless to say, nothing happened.

Jeff Weaver
05-05-2004, 08:09 PM
I suspect that their "correspondence" with any Primitive Baptist Associations would be dependent on their dropping any other correspondence as well. But I am curious to hear first hand accounts of these folks.

Frogman
05-06-2004, 02:53 PM
Dear Bethelassoc,
I am not able to find any information on the Barren River Association(s). Are these strictly United Baptist? Could you send me your source? So I could maybe obtain a copy or something. Perhaps our Libraries here just do not have that information available, but it would be a welcome source for the reference room here.

Thanks.

Bro. Dallas graemlins/wavey.gif

Bethelassoc
05-06-2004, 03:51 PM
Bro Dallas:

I'll PM you the source. He is working on completing the history book of the association(s) and he will allow me to post how to purchase it on my research site.

Here's a quote from him:

"The Barren River Association of United Baptists organized on September 15, 1830 at the Mt. Pleasant Meeting House in Barren County, Kentucky. Fifteen churches went into the organization. It is a daughter of the old Green River Association (org. 1800 at the Sinking Creek Meeting House in Warren County) This is different than what others have said, so that's why I need more info, too. This Association is still in existence, but inactive and very weak. There are only four churches in the association now. In its height of strength, 56 churches were affiliiated with it. The Barren River Association, as far as I know, is the only association to endorse Elder J. H. Spencer and sponsor him DURING the writing of A HIstory of Kentucky Baptists (pub. 1886). They also wrote a remarkable endorsement of the Confederacy in 1861.

The Original Barren River Association of United Baptists organized in 1841 after a division in the Barren River Association over missions. This organization continued until 1924, when it dissolved. At its height only 18 churches were affiliated with it.

The Barren River Regular Baptist Association organized in 1836, after a division in the Barren River Association over missions. THis organization continued at least until 1878, maybe later and never had more than fifteen churches affiliated. I don't know EXACTLY when it dissolved.

Most of the churches that left the Barren River Association in 1841 and in 1836, eventually returned. The Association is now the "Barren River Association of Missionary Baptists."

He said that the history of Barren River will be in a two volume set at around $80.

David

Bethelassoc
05-06-2004, 04:59 PM
The Association is now the "Barren River Association of Missionary Baptists." Bro Dallas:

I appreciate you allowing me to evaluate my info. Sometimes a second look really helps. smile.gif

Bethelassoc
05-09-2004, 01:37 AM
I've come across another place that sells ORB media. I could give the whole address, but it seems to give an error, so here's the longer version.

The name of the website is: http://www.kingdomcome.org

At the drop down menu, "Quick Links....", choose "Gift Shops"

Now, click on the link, "Kentucky Coal Mining Museum Gift Shop"

In here, you'll find the entry, "Old Regular Baptist Association Minutes 1876-1930"
Compiled by Clifton & Ruby Caudill $24.00

I've emailed the museum to find out the name of the association, to be certain.

David

P.S.- Still haven't received word on SGA minutes.

Jeff Weaver
05-09-2004, 08:49 AM
Bro. David

I think the book is a compilation of obituaries contained in sundry ORB minutes, and not the actual work of the association. It is designed for the genalogist and not really this historian. Course there might be some minister's obit that would have something useful in it.

Jeff Weaver

Bethelassoc
05-09-2004, 06:17 PM
Bro Weaver:

I guess it won't matter, anyway. The museum gift shop emailed back and said they don't carry that item anymore.

On another note, I did receive minute books (no SGA minutes) Saturday and found some interesting info inside. My grandfather, who's family started an ORB church, is in a couple minute books I received of Mt.Zion Assoc from 1959 and 1960.

Also, in a 1997 minute book, Mt.Zion was corresponding with Thornton Union and Burning Springs. I wasn't surprised about Thornton Union, seeing how Mt.Zion went by "Regular United" during it's early years, but I wasn't expecting to see Burning Spring Association as a correspondant. That's quite interesting.

David

Jeff Weaver
05-09-2004, 06:43 PM
Bro. David

The Burning Springs Association is a bit odd. I am thinking there must be a couple of groups with the same or very similar names. I have some minutes from the Buring Springs at that time. Care to post or PM some of the corresponding ministers, and I'll look to see if they are in the Regular Primitive Association.

Jeff.

rlvaughn
05-09-2004, 10:32 PM
David, in case you should run across the item "Old Regular Baptist Association Minutes 1876-1930", compiled by Clifton & Ruby Caudill - I bought a copy on e-bay a while back, and it does contain photocopies of random Regular/Primitive/Old Regular/Regular Primitive Associations. It would be too long to list exactly what's in there, but here are the associations that are in the book: Sandlick, New Salem, Powell's River, Mates Creek, Union, and Indian Bottom. There appear to be more of Indian Bottom than any one of the others.

If you're interested in checking availability, this address is on the cover page - Fireside Printing & Publishing, HC 83 Box 2664, Whitesburg, KY 41858

Jeff Weaver
05-09-2004, 10:52 PM
These same folks did a book with a series of obits from various ORB minutes. Didn't know they had done a second book.

Thanks for the update.

jeff

rlvaughn
05-09-2004, 11:14 PM
Jeff, I wasn't aware of the other book. But I'm not surprised. Minute books, and the obituaries in particular, can offer a wealth of information for genealogists. Some people use the genealogical angle when advertising minute books on eBay. That can make the price go to high too!!

Bethelassoc
05-11-2004, 10:58 AM
Bro Weaver:

The minute book states that Burning Springs sent a letter of correspondance to Mt. Zion. It's quite possible that it is a different association. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Thanks for that info, Bro. Vaughn.

Frogman
05-11-2004, 12:56 PM
Dear Brethren,
Here is some information I have been able to locate through the WKU library, hope it is of some help. I have not been able to make it to Bowling Green, but when I do I will visit the Kentucky Library and try to locate some of these minutes and make copies.

The material is non-circulating, so I will do the best I can.

The quote from my search is below:

From: Voyager Owner <voyager@minerva.louisville.edu>
Subject: Opac Subject Browse Search for Baptists in Barren County Kentucky
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:10:02 -0400
To: dallas.eaton@wku.edu



Title: Baptists. Kentucky. Barren River Association.
Minutes. 1st- 1831-

Primary Material: Periodical

Subject(s): Baptists. Kentucky. Barren River Association.

Description: v. 22 cm. annual.

Notes: Minutes for 1862-63 (22d-23d) combined in one issue.
In 19 - called Barren River Missionary Baptist
Association.

Location: Kentucky Library (Non-Circulating)

Call Number: BX6209 .B28x A3

Status: Not Checked Out

Library Has: 1862-63, 1901, 1908, 1912, 1914, 1916, 1918-1919,
1922-1924, 1927-1929, 1932-1933, 1936-1937, 1939-1940,
1943, 1950, 1953, 1955-1957, 1961-1962, 1965-1966

================================================== ==============================


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Western Kentucky University Libraries
1 Big Red Way
Bowling Green KY 42101
270-745-3951

Jeff Weaver
05-11-2004, 03:18 PM
Bro. David

It looks like there must be at least two Burning Springs Associations then. The one I am familar with states that it was established in 1813, and currently denominates itself Regular Primitive Baptist.

Hope it helps
Jeff.

Bethelassoc
05-16-2004, 04:29 PM
Bro. Weaver et al:

I did get an answer about Burning Springs Regular Primitive Baptist Association:

"Mt. Zion Association did correspond with the Burning Springs Regular Primitive Baptist Association. Yes it is the same one you asked about. This has been an on again off again relationship. They did not correspond in 1999, and I do not know after that. Mt. Zion has also corresponded with Pilgrim Rest Regular Primitive Assocation and Thornton Union Old Regular Baptist. These associations have been through a lot of change and would not be considered as "strict" by mountain standards concerning some of their practices. Some of the churches in these associations do not go along with the others and there is a lot of variation in practices, but they seem able to make it work for them as far as staying together."

baptistteacher
05-17-2004, 11:58 PM
Hi! Found this info in a web search, and wondered if someone would care to comment as to the accuracy of its portrayal of ORB.

http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Old_Regular_Baptist.html

I kept reading in this thread about this church or group "corresponding" with (or not) with another, which sounded like writing letters or something. I found out in the article that churches choose (elect?) correspondents who visit the other churches. How and why does this happen?

Jeff Weaver
05-18-2004, 07:03 AM
Old Regular Baptist
History
Most Regular Baptists merged with the Separate Baptists near the beginning of 19th century. The party names were dropped in favor of United Baptists. The use of the name "Regular" has persisted among some Baptist groups, particularly among primitivistic sects that reject modern methods, including missionary and educational auxiliaries for the churches. Most Old Regular Baptists can be traced back to the New Salem Association of United Baptists (org. in eastern Kentucky in 1825). In 1854 the name was changed to "Regular United", to "Regular Primitive" in 1870, and then in 1892 to "Old Regular." The minutes of New Salem Association in 1892 indicate that they feared the extremism of some predestinarians that tended toward teaching God is the author of sin. This paragraph is accurate, except for the last sentence. The issue on predestination is more complex than is indicated here. Some Old regular Baptists believe in a general atonement, while Primitive Baptists believe in particular atonement.

Faith and Practice
The theology of the group is predestinarian, but more moderately so than the Primitive Baptists. While Primitives describe their belief as "particular election," Old Regulars prefer the terminology "election by grace." Churches form local associations by which they fellowship with one another. This fellowship is formally maintained by the associations electing "correspondents" to attend the meetings of the other associations. Preachers are God-called, untrained and unpaid, and preach "improvisational" (often chanted) sermons. Baptism (in running water), the Lord's supper and feet washing are held to be ordinances. Shouting is a frequent occurrence at Old Regular meeting, particularly among the female membership. Conversion experiences may be a lengthy "process," beginning with an awakening to sin, through a period of conviction and travail of the soul, to repentance and belief.Again accurate. The process of correspondents might seem a bit odd to those who have never seen it, but it actually quite simple. Churches voluntarily associate with an association. When the churches prepare a letter to the association, it is stated "desiring to keep up a Christian correspondence with you." All these churches meet at the appointed place and time. At these associational meetings, the associations decide, which if any other associations, they wish to correspond with. They then write a letter to other associations of like faith and order (the correspondence) and appoint some members to carry it to the sister association(s) (The correspondents). It is a hold over from the days prior to telephonic communication, and at the same time represents a written record of what a particular group believes, and the expresses welcome from one body to the other. There is no organization beyond the associational level.

Current Status
The strength of Old Regular Baptists is in the Appalachias, particularly along the Kentucky and Virginia border. Currently there are sixteen local associations: Mud River, New Salem, Northern New Salem, Old Friendship, Old Indian Bottom, Philadelphia, Sardis, Union, Bethel, Friendship, Indian Bottom, Little Dove, Mountain #1, Mountain #2, Original Mountain Liberty, and Thornton Union. The first eight on the list maintain "correspondence" with one another, while the remaining eight exhibit various correspondence patterns, including one that has corresponded with Primitive Baptists and United Baptists. These sixteen associations contain about 325 churches with some 15,000 members.
Lined-Out Hymnody
One noted feature that has gained much attention to the Old Regular Baptists is their lined-out, non-instrumental, congregational hymnody. Songs of the Old Regular Baptists by Smithsonian and Jeff Todd Titon's Old Regular Baptists of Southeastern Kentucky: A Community of Sacred Song are notable in the folk music industry. Though Old Regular Baptists are not the only group to retain lined-out hymnody, theirs may be the purest, since it is the only form of singing used in their churches. According to Titon, "The leader sings the very first line, and the congregation joins in when they recognize the song. After that, the song proceeds line by line: the leader briefly chants a line alone, and then the group repeats the words but to a tune that is much longer and more elaborate than the leader's chant or lining tune." E. D. Thomas' Hymns and Spirtual Songs (1877) and Edward W. Billups' The Sweet Songster (1854) are two words-only hymn books preferred by these churches. Accurate.

Sources
*Giving Glory to God in Appalachia, by Howard Dorgan *The Old Regular Baptists of Central Appalachia, by Howard Dorgan *Appalachian Mountain Religion, by Deborah McCauley *Dictionary of Baptists in America, Bill J. Leonard, editor
External Links
*Old Regular Baptists *Historical Sketch *History of Red Bush Old Regular Baptist Church *Information on Lined-Out Hymnody *Appalachian Music
This article courtesy of Wikipedia. This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License, which means that you can copy and modify it as long as the entire work (including additions) remains under this license. GFDL: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

Hope it helps.

Bethelassoc
05-18-2004, 12:21 PM
I see that Bro Weaver answered in the same manner as I was going to. smile.gif

I always keep in mind that correspondance is fellowship. We want to fellowship, so we correspond with like minded associations.

Jeff Weaver
05-26-2004, 07:20 PM
I see a new member, and Old Regular, so Bump.

old regular
06-02-2004, 03:25 AM
Dear Brothers,
I hope to answer a few of your questions on the Old Regular Baptist.I have been a member since 1980.There are two Burning Springs Associations both give the same date as their orgin, the assoc
split several years ago.They go by the title Regular Primitive since sometime in the 1930s before that Regular Baptist,and at one time United Baptist. Burning Springs armed off the New Salem who armed off the Sandlick,Union,Mates Creek
Kyova,Philadelphia,Northern New Salem.The Mates Creek,Sandlick go by the name Regular Primitive also a minorty split in the Union.The associations that use the term Old Regular Baptist in their title in this section of the country are the New Salem,Union,Sardis,Mountain 1and 2,Old Indian Bottom,Indian Bottom,Old Friendship,Friendship,Thorton Union,Mountain Liberty,Sovereign Grace,Bethel,Philadelphia, Northern New Salem,Mud River is down to one church,Kyova no longer meets, some it's former churches are indepedant ,Little Dove, its churches went to Mountain Liberty,Mountain Valley,there are some that just use the term Regular Baptist like Little Zion association etc these are not Union Baptist nor GARBC's some are in correspondence with Primitive Baptist Assoc's.I hope this information might be of use to you all. A brother in hope of eternal life,
Elder M.K Slone

Jeff Weaver
06-02-2004, 09:27 AM
Dear Elder Sloan

Thanks for the input. Now tell us about yourself. smile.gif

Elder Jeff Weaver

old regular
06-02-2004, 11:40 PM
DEAR ELDER WEAVER,
I FEEL AND HOPE THE LORD ADDED ME TO HIS CHURCH IN 1980, I WAS 17 @ THE TIME.MY HOME CHURCH WAS PLEASANT VIEW IN THE NNS ASSOC.ORB OF JESUS CHRIST.I JOINED THE USN IN 1982 AS A NON-COMBATANT HOSPITAL CORPSMEN,I MOVED MY LETTER TO BE CLOSER TO MY DUTY STATION IN GREAT LAKES ILL.SO THEN I WAS A MEMBER AT LITTLE ELLEN IN THE NEW SALEM ASSOCIATION.CURRENTLY I HAVE MY MEMBERSHIP AT THE MT. ZION ORB CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION.MY WIFE AND I LIVE IN RURAL CASEY CO KY NEAR THE ADAIR LINE.WE HAVE 5 BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN AND 2-3 FOSTER CHILDREN WE RAISE SOME LIVESTOCK GOATS CATTLE ETC FOR OUR OWN USE.I AM WORKING IN E-TOWN KY @ THE SLEEP CENTER AS A RESP.THERAPIST AND KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT COMPUTERS AND I HATE TO TYPE,LOVE TO READ.I DON'T KNOW IF THAT INFORMATION TOLD YOU MUCH, BUT I AM JUST A BROTHER IN HOPE TRYING TO LIVE BY WHAT LIGHT AND UNDERSTANDING THE LORD HAS GIVEN ME. BRO MIKE SLONE

[ June 02, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: old regular ]

Jeff Weaver
06-03-2004, 07:35 AM
Dear Bro. Sloan

Thanks for the information. It is helpful.

I am a wee bit older than you are, actually a lot older, but that's another story. smile.gif

Reason I asked, was that I thought you might be one of the SGA ORB mentioned in this thread. Just trying to get a handle on how you fit in.

As I stated in the thread, my father's family are Mountain Union Baptists, which are about as close to ORB as you can get without being one. They use the formal name "Regular Baptist" omitting the "Old" part. I took after Mom's family though and am a PRimitive Baptist type person, coming up on 25th anniversary of my ordination next month.

I am currently a member of Tumbling Creek Church in Washington Co., VA, in the St. Clair District Primitive Baptist Association. We are in correspondence with some folks over your way, like the Burning Springs, Mates Creek, Union, and Sandlick. So we do head that way from time to time. Union Association is this weekend at Millstone Church at Eolia, Letcher Co., KY, but I can't go, but no doubt some of our folks will be over there.

I know there are some ORBs which are Primitive Baptist in all but name, and then there are those that aren't. Of course there are Primitive Baptists in name which bear no resemblance to the rest of us either.

Jeff Weaver

old regular
06-03-2004, 10:58 PM
Dear Elder Weaver,
The Sovereign Grace Association Of Old Regular Baptist of Jesus Christ is very close in doctrine to the Bethel Assn. ORB or The Sandlick Reg.Primitive of Ky.I have numerous friends in the Primitives/Mountain Union/and among all the ORB associations in this region.SGA's practice would be more like the New Salem ORB.You will find among the larger ORB associations a large spectrum of doctrine depending on what creek,or Church you vist, .anything from absolute predestnation to free moral agency.This is sad but true.Old Regulars truly are just one of the divisons of Old School Baptist.I have never heard of any of them using the terms General or Paticular when dealing with the atonement in my time.Our association carries an abstract principle that states we belive that the redeemption purchased to be special for the church.However when the Regulars and Seperates came together they agreed that the preaching that Christ tasted death for everyman would be no bar to communion.There was one reference to General Atonement being preached by an Elder Hopkins in the blue history book he was the moderator of the New Salem it caused such a stir that some of the correspondence withdrew their letters and so did several of New Salems own churches.They never did patch things up with some of the correspondence and as the question of absolute predestination of all things both good and evil began to appear the Mates Creek Split and the Sardis Assn came from that divison. New Salem dropped Burning Springs over Secret Order.The Regs and Primitives still preached together during all the turmoil and some did even after non fellowships had been declared.
I asked what was the major cause of divison between them, the old brethern said most of it was jealousy.As to the ORB preaching a General Atonement at present.I think it would be based on what one considered the term to mean.I looked at some definitions on the web,when I was with that side of Old Regulars (New Salem- Union)I don't recall anyone saying that Christ shed his blood to make all men savable but rather that he by the Grace of God tasted death for every man but shed his blood for many.Would that statement qualify as general atonement or not? I believe that he was given power over all flesh to give eternal life to as many as the Father gave him and that the redemption purchased will atone the sins of his Elect Lady,that he is a special Savior to the believer.We refer to our view of the atonement as special or limited.Old Regulars and Primitive Baptist in our region don't like to be called Calvinist because we believe Pauls Teachings predated him, and also Calvin was not an Old School Baptist.The SGA believes that the gospel doesn't give life and immortality but rather brings it to light.I myself have enjoyed visting with Brothers who call themselves calvinist,absoluters supra/sublapsarians etc.. I love the people of God and enjoy hearing brethern preaching the Free Grace of God. I hope this helps to give a clearer picture of who we are .I also hope that no one takes personal offense to what I have said.Sorry about the capital letters
I was unaware that it meant I was shouting.Most Old Regulars don't get on the inter net, and some would be upset that I have made an attempt.
In Hope
Brother M.Slone

old regular
06-03-2004, 11:23 PM
I noticed a question about the Kyova ORB ASSN.The Churches that formed this association came from a split in the Bethlehem United Baptist Association the Churches lettered to the New Salem ASSN. of ORB then were latter given an arm to form Kyova.This association sent a request asking the other assns not to recieve members from labor unions such as UMW as they considered them to be secret order.New Salem returned their letter and told them they could not comply with their request.I believe the assn. moderator was Elder C Cole who wrote a long letter about the beast's kingdom. I may have the dates to these events somewhere in my library. Bro. M.Slone

old regular
06-04-2004, 03:16 AM
Just a quick note, I was assuming that Bro. Weaver meant General when speaking about some ORBS holding to universal atonement.Would not an universal atonement equal an universal salvation? There is a group in Va of Primitive Baptist that teach this along with what we call the no hell doctrine.
Bro.Slone

Bethelassoc
06-04-2004, 12:11 PM
Dear Elder Slone:

I'm glad to see you on here. I hope that you will be posting more info soon.

I was fortunate to receive a 1996 minute book from New Salem last week. It is a much bigger minute book than what I am accustomed to.

David

Jeff Weaver
06-04-2004, 12:46 PM
Just a quick note, I was assuming that Bro. Weaver meant General when speaking about some ORBS holding to universal atonement.Would not an universal atonement equal an universal salvation? There is a group in Va of Primitive Baptist that teach this along with what we call the no hell doctrine.
Bro.Slone Dear Bro. Slone

Thanks for the information. I think we are not on the same page here, so best to claify. By a general atonement I mean that there are some who believe that Jesus died for everyone, and it is left up to the sinner to accept or reject. The Primitive Baptist No Heller believe that Jesus died for everyone and all will achieve heaven whether or not they accept Him. I am of the opinion that neither opinion is correct, but rather, that Jesus accomplished all that the Father sent him to do, and firmly believe what the angel told Joseph: Fear not to take unto thee Mary, thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus, for he Shall save His people from their sins. Since there is no mention of man anywhere in there, I believe he can do it without our help. I am not so bold as to believe that I can identify all of these people, where they are, or when that salvation might come. Might be at conception, might be on the death bed.

Hope it helps clarify.

Jeff.

Bethelassoc
06-07-2004, 12:00 AM
I noticed a question about the Kyova ORB ASSN.The Churches that formed this association came from a split in the Bethlehem United Baptist Association the Churches lettered to the New Salem ASSN. of ORB then were latter given an arm to form Kyova.This association sent a request asking the other assns not to recieve members from labor unions such as UMW as they considered them to be secret order.New Salem returned their letter and told them they could not comply with their request.I believe the assn. moderator was Elder C Cole who wrote a long letter about the beast's kingdom. I may have the dates to these events somewhere in my library.Bro Slone:

To clarify, is this split from Old Bethlehem or the second (and bigger) Bethlehem? If you get the chance, could you give me the dates of this situation? I appreciate you clearing up what Perrigan said in his book. It makes sense now. Thanks.

David

Bethelassoc
06-07-2004, 11:27 AM
Bro Weaver:

I don't have any info on the members of Burning Springs that were delegates to Mt. Zion. I did find on the Old Line Messenger website the ministers of Burning Springs and saw the name of Elder Jerry Brown.

I'm wondering if this is the same one that sung on a Don Rigsby Bluegrass CD? I also have a CD of him singing some old songs. My brother-in-law is related to the Jerry Brown (PB Elder) on the CDs.

I thought it was interesting.

David

Jeff Weaver
06-07-2004, 03:52 PM
Bro. David

Don't know about Elder Brown singing on CD's. I might see him for a few mintues a couple of times a year at associational meetings.

Sorry can't be of help.

Jeff.

DrewH
06-11-2004, 11:26 PM
Hi Guys, I'm the guy working on the Barren River Association materials that Bethelassoc mentioned. my website is www.barrenriverassociation.org. (http://www.barrenriverassociation.org.) Please please feel free to ask me questions about this association. I'm no expert but I will try to share what I know.

DrewH
06-11-2004, 11:27 PM
Just a note about the Green River Association. It continues to meet every year. I'm planning on going this fall when it meets - probably at a church in Edmonson or Grayson County... I also have some old minutes of the GRA

DrewH
06-11-2004, 11:29 PM
If it would not be out of order, I would like to issue some "talking points" on the Barren River Association. The one still in operation is simply the Barren River Association (org. 1830). The other two were called the Barren River Regular Baptist Association (1836) and the Original Barren River Association (1841) and they are both dissolved.

Bethelassoc
06-15-2004, 11:39 AM
Drew:

Just to point out, the existing Barren River Association still uses "United Baptist" in their name but are Missionary, correct?

Elder Weaver:

I think this is the same elder. The songs he sings (and lines out) are done beautifully.

Jeff Weaver
06-15-2004, 07:20 PM
That sounds about right, almost all of the hymns in this part of the world are "lined-out."

Jeff.

rlvaughn
06-15-2004, 10:26 PM
Drew, I'd like to welcome you. It's good to find people that are interested in researching, sharing and discussing Baptist history! Hope to hear more from you.

rlvaughn

DrewH
06-16-2004, 12:07 AM
From 1830 through 1888, the Association was titled, "Barren River Association of United Baptist Churches of Christ." In 1888, they dropped the United and didn't have any other label other than "Baptist" and in the early 1900s, "Missionary" was inserted in the title of the Association, "Barren River Association of Missionary Baptists." The "Church of Christ" part was also dropped.

DrewH
06-16-2004, 12:10 AM
Sorry I had to look it up. Missionary was inserted in 1934. No label other than "Baptist" from 1888-1934. Thanks...

old regular
06-18-2004, 03:19 AM
I think it was 1924 that seven churches from the Bethelhem United Baptist were armed off the New Salem Old Regular to form the Kyova Old Regular Association. They must of split from them over secret order in 1923.I will have to look it up in the New Salem minutes but the association did not have the name Old Bethlehem in the book, History of the Old Time Baptist by Wesley Yonts.Could this split pre date the split in Bethlehem that caused the second association known as Old Bethlehem?The Old Regulars and United Baptist in this part of the country came very close to coresponding at one time but some differences over the gospel and hope and positive knowledge put it to rest. One historian stated that New Hope Association was made of former Old Regular Churches that were opposed to predestination.I have no records of this.I do know that the United's preached they knew beyond doubt that they were saved and going to heaven while the Old Regular's preached they had only a hope ,that they were of the elect and by faith ,they believed if they were, then heaven would be their home but in nature they only had reason for their hope which was their experience of grace.They also were opposed to secret order in the United Baptist Ranks. I was told that two Elders one ORB and the other UB that stopped their efforts.There was also some talk at one time of the Mates Creek and Bethel getting together but Bethel felt the demands made by MC PB and some of their members were too much for them.This has been the case with the SGA and some groups we would have corresponded with also. mslone

Bethelassoc
06-18-2004, 01:52 PM
I'm not sure off hand about the Bethlehem split, but I was told that it happened a few years after their establishment in 1871. Both groups (Old and 'Open Communion' or what we call 'Big') contend to use the same date of origin. Their split was over communion.

Another split in the mid 20s was the result of secret orders and just one church remains from that called Mt. Calvary Regular Baptist.

Then there was another split in th 60s forming two more groups that went by (another) Bethlehem and Union Bethlehem (UBA split again after 1989).

Another split in 1989, which formed Calvary Regular United Baptist which itself split into two, calling the other one Mt.Sion Regular United. Both are closer to Old Regular Baptist than United in practice.

So, what's the score?

Speaking of Yonts, I need to get his book. I have the info, but haven't got the gumption yet to send for it. :rolleyes:

Squire Robertsson
06-18-2004, 02:38 PM
What are "secret orders"?

Jeff Weaver
06-18-2004, 03:33 PM
Secret orders are groups like the Masonic Lodge, Odd Fellows, et.al.

Old Order types of baptists generally prohibit their members from also being members of any group which isn't open to the general public.

Squire Robertsson
06-18-2004, 04:26 PM
I thought as much. I just wanted to stick my toe into this intramural discussion. For that matter, many of us take the same position. I even have problems joining the American Legion. (Have you ever read their funeral service?)

Jeff Weaver
06-18-2004, 04:29 PM
Both are closer to Old Regular Baptist than United in practice.
Bro. David

From your perspective, would you describe the differences in ORB and United practice? I would also like your take on what the differences in theology are?

Muchos gracias.

Jeff.

Jeff Weaver
06-18-2004, 04:38 PM
Squire:

I thought as much. I just wanted to stick my toe into this intramural discussion. For that matter, many of us take the same position. I even have problems joining the American Legion. (Have you ever read their funeral service?) Jump on in, I don't think any of us Old Order types mind.

I haven't read the American Legion's funeral service. I keep getting invites to join the VFW and American Legion, but never have, so I really don't know much about either one.

Primitive Baptist (and all other Old Order Baptists for that matter) funeral practices are "odd" here in Appalachia. It is more of a mountain thing than a Primitivistic Baptist thing. Typically there is a lot of singing and preaching, and little of the pomp and ceremony you see with others. Some of our people have had, and I am quite serious, as many as 10 sermons at the funeral, and they had perhaps as many as 10 at the wake. It is quite tiresome and has hurt us in many ways. Many of our current members have revolted against it, and I count myself in that group. I have instructions for no services what so ever when I die. I have told my church that if they have something to say to me or about me, then do it when I am living. If they have something to say about the Lord, then regular meeting is the appropriate time for that. To everything there is a season.

Squire Robertsson
06-18-2004, 05:58 PM
Sounds alot like the Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist funerals I've heard reports of.

In my home church, we follow in the traditions of the Northern Regular Baptists. So, while there is music, there is only one preacher (usually, our senior pastor). However due to the demographics of San Francisco, with a good deal of sensetivity to the Holy Spirit's leading, these services may be the first/only Gospel wittness some attendees will hear.

As for the rest of this discussion, we'd think we'd made it to Beulah land if we had as many churchs as y'all have in our region of the country. We're so busy fighting the pagans that we don't have the time or energy to spilt hairs amoungst ourselves. That is a luxury we can ill afford. (Add to that it's easy to get lost in an ocean of 5 million people. There is also a distance factor to consider. In these parts, a 20 minute commute is nothing, 40 minutes is close by.)

Jeff Weaver
06-18-2004, 06:27 PM
Squire

I can relate. I was assigned to the Presidio of Monterey for a year, and we drove to Livermore California a couple of times a month for church. That was a commute. We also went to San Francisco to goof off a few times. Interesting for a boy from the hills of Appalachia. smile.gif

As for churches spliting hairs, in our area it is quite the cottage industry. There is far too much of it, but it is interesting in a perverse way. I live in a town with a population of about 2600 people, and we have 2 United Methodist Churches, an Episcopal, one Southern Baptist, one Primitive Baptist, one Church of the Nazarene, three Churches of Christ, two rural Presbyterian churches within 5 miles of town, and a couple of churches which I am at a loss to describe -- Pentecostal types, but beyond that....

At any rate, it creates a condition for having very small congregations, as far as most other people would be concerned. This town was a mining community until 1972 when the company pulled out and closed the mines. It has been depopulating ever since. (Need some cheap housing, come here). Additional problems with the number of churches is that in the days before the automobile, each community wanted its own structure and meeting schedule. As the automobile came, and the area depopulated, it created a number of very small congregations. The Methodists have closed a large number of churches in the last 15 years. Primitive Baptist congregations tend to be small anyway, but we have 18 members on the rolls, and an average attendance of about 70, which is far better than other churches in the area with many more on the rolls. (We Primitive Baptists are strange that way.) What might be described as the main church in town, Madam Russell United Methodist, has about 400 members on the rolls, but has an average attendance of about 40. The people just left and never transferred their memberships to new churches. There is a lot of that.

Jeff.

Squire Robertsson
06-18-2004, 06:49 PM
Like we say out here: Nobody (well, hardly anybody) came to San Francisco to join a good church.

DrewH
06-18-2004, 11:13 PM
Secret Orders - "benevolent societies" - groups that churches and members of the Barren River Association were encouraged to avoid because they saw it as mixing the world and the church. On the other hand they saw their comission as preaching the gospel and not worrying too much with humanitarian needs. "A church is a spiritual body, not a charitable body" see the difference? It's hard to understand sometimes.

Squire Robertsson
06-19-2004, 12:42 AM
It seems to me they glossed over the widows section in Acts and the pertenant verses in the Timothys.

Bethelassoc
06-21-2004, 10:40 AM
From your perspective, would you describe the differences in ORB and United practice? I would also like your take on what the differences in theology are? That's a good question. I think that there is little difference in ORBs and Appalachian UBs. I believe that some are raised in one and have family in the other, so they are very familiar with a certain practice.

Now, when you leave the mountains, you'll find some of the same practice in UB churches where members migrated from the hills. My old home church will still line out songs because they've kept up the tradition since coming from KY.

Other UBs don't and some have never heard of that style of singing. I'm not certain if this is a factor either, but I don't believe that ORBs have much "special singing" during the service like most UBs do. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Theology between the two is also minimal. My opinion about it is that people are afraid of the threat of antinomianism creeping in than they are of debating eternal security. This also goes for absolutism. Bro. Slone spoke about the variance of the hope and the assurance of salvation, but I think it is the same thing.

To me, there is not a difference in the preaching from one side to the other. The styles vary, but that's it.

There's much more to break down, but that's the general feeling I have about it.

Jeff Weaver
06-21-2004, 03:05 PM
Bro. David

Thanks.

Now, another question, if you will be so kind. Please lay out what, in your opinion, is distinctive about United Baptists?

Jeff.

Jacob Webber
06-21-2004, 05:04 PM
I have a question. around my area there are Preaches who when preaching do the AUH! while taking in a breath. I hard that this still of preaching started in Wales in the UK. It seems pretty popular around some of the churches I have been to as a child. The current Church I attended now the Pastor does not do this He does not get as worked up. But I know He is getting the Word across just as good if not better because our church has grown so much we had to goto 4 services Sat. night 8am 9:45am and 11:30am How do you feel about these styles of preaching and which one seems to be best for you. Mine is more of the interactive Teaching.

Bethelassoc
06-21-2004, 05:20 PM
Now, another question, if you will be so kind. Please lay out what, in your opinion, is distinctive about United Baptists? Ooh. Now that's an interesting question. If anything, the distinction is in it's history. The history is unique, in that, the union of two baptist denominations was such a wide spread phenomenon (starting in North Carolina and officially changing their names in Virginia and Kentucky and going from there), that it put, for the most part, the historical names of 'Regular' and 'Separate' into oblivion.

Some historians claim that at one time most of the baptist churches in the U.S. were under the name United Baptist:

"In the early part of the century in the States most all Baptists were spoken of as 'United Baptists'."
- J.H. Grime: History of Middle Tennessee Baptists (1902) I've heard some talk about it's theology and about how much it's mixed, based on the combo of Regular (calvinistic) and Separate Baptists. I don't think that it's that mixed, but again, it all depends on who you talk to.

I believe the theology mainly stays the same, but the worship is varied. United Baptists go from primitivistic to moderate in worship styles.

This is my take on it. I'm still learning more about it all the time.

Bethelassoc
06-21-2004, 05:29 PM
Jacob:

I think preaching styles are as different as people are different. I know what you are referring to. I've come to know it as the "preacher's wail" or the "preacher's moan".

This is what some call stylized preaching. It is usually found in the older style baptist churches. Not all preach that way. Some preach in a rhythmic motion in their breathing called a "hacking" style, and others do not.

It doesn't matter how they sound, as long as they've been called to preach.

DrewH
06-21-2004, 06:10 PM
One major diffence in the Green River Association and the Barren River Association in practice - is the practice of footwashings as an ordinance by the Green River....just thought I'd throw that it.

Frogman
06-21-2004, 06:55 PM
Dear Brother Drew,
Do you know if Cane Valley Baptist is still part of the Green River Association? Cane Valley is in Adair Co. Ky and is where I experienced believer's baptism as a young man [13 yrs.]. I don't remember ever taking the Lord's Supper there so I don't know if they practiced feetwashing or not. But I do know at one time they were part of the Green River Association.

Was feetwashing considered a mark or test of fellowship?

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

Bethelassoc
06-22-2004, 12:37 PM
I received a minute book from SGA and it states that correspondence is with Thornton Union, Sandlick, and Bethel. I may have left out another association (I don't have the book in front of me).

It also states Green River Primitive Baptist church. Bro Slone, is this a church in correspondence with the association? I also assume that Little Polly is an ORB in correspondence with SGA?

old regular
06-22-2004, 10:42 PM
Dear Bethelassoc,
The Green River Primitive Baptist Church was a former member of the Powell Valley PB association then latter became an independent PB church,there was some divison I was told over secret order.The chuch met and got along fairly well then there was an accident perhaps, with a firearm in which the moderator killed himself.The church had no ordained minister and some of the members joined other PB churches.The last members of the church gave the building and records over to the SGA because they felt we practiced closer to them than anyone else around and had the same faith and order.We hold services there on the 3rd Sunday @ 10:30 a.m.We haven't organized a church there as of yet and the last members are not able to attend now do to age distance etc.. .We also correspond with the Mountain Liberty, and Mountain Valley.We have been preaching with several more associations of Primitive Baptist but have never sent a letter of correspondence,not because of any doctrinal issue the distance mainly hinders us and we are a very small group.The Little Polly ORB left the NNS ORB and is an independent body.They maintain a working relationship with us but are not a member church this is not permitted by the New Salem Correspondence but we have no problems with independent churches.and feel associations are products of the churches not the other way around.
The New Salem Assoc. did carry the name United Baptist for a short period of time that association came from Regular and Seperate Baptist that had merged.The Mud River came from a divison in a Paticular Baptist Assoc.Also the Freindship assoc. churches came from Regular/Paticular Baptist.The New Hope and SGA did not correspond because of several issues one being who is the legal side of the New Hope two they were opposed to Primitive Baptist in general thinking that all of them held to absolute predestination.They didn't like Thorton Unions lack of order on hair and were opposed to the Old Regular Baptist not having absolute positive knowledge that means beyond any doubt in nature as well as the spirt that they were going to heaven,as you may know ORB profess a hope.There are now two New Hope Associations and the gap between them is getting wider.I have not visted them lately. They practice however closer to ORB than United Baptist.I have found good orthodox brethen among ORB,UB,and the PB that often believe and teach the same things but use different ways of explaining it.Our next Association Sovereign Grace will start at the Blessed Hope Church of Jesus Christ of Old Regular Baptist on Friday the 16th of July @1pm Est/12p.m Cst. This church is in Adair County Ky near the Casey Co. line in a village called Pellyton,).Liberty KY is the closest City.You all are invited to come. We the SGA oganized a new church near Salyersville ,Ky last weekend it was named Mt.Moriah Church of Jesus Christ of ORB faith and order it meets on the 4th Sunday. Brother Slone

[ June 22, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: old regular ]

DrewH
06-22-2004, 11:39 PM
1.) I'm checking on Cane Valley for you Bro. Dallas.

2.) I agree that the difference in PB, MB and UB is history - and theology - some type of combination. My take on this is part of my book on the Barren River Association.

3.) Footwashing is found in the 13th Chapter of St. John and as Christ did, so must we do. And paraphrasing the word, Happy are we for doing so. I have washed feet. It makes a special bond and love between brethren. Footwashing or not footwashing does not make you a better Christian - it is a test of humility.

old regular
06-22-2004, 11:52 PM
Dear Bethel Assoc.
The Church your family belonged to was and is in the New Salem .The Philadelphia Church is @ Hippo, Floyd Co. Ky.We always referred to it as the Brush Creek Church(its on Brush Creek).The Little Martha is/was in the New Salem and is located near Royalton,Ky.Union Assoc. also has two Churches by those names.My mother was a Stephens from Stephens Branch/ and lived near these Churches in Hueysville,KY her aunt Anne Shepherd was a member of Little Martha and her neighbor was the moderator @ Philadelphia. Thought you might be interested Bro.Slone P.S I was looking @ one of your earlier posts.

Frogman
06-23-2004, 12:03 PM
Dear Brother Drew,
Thank you for your research in this and the list you have of the Barren River Assoc.

Dear OldRegular, the next meeting held in Pellyton please let me know, if the Lord is willing I would like to visit. I was raised in Cane Valley and roamed the hills of knifley some.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

Bethelassoc
06-23-2004, 01:36 PM
Bro Slone:

Thanks for that information. I could read it all day! I'm glad to hear about the new church. I know that there are still those out there that are looking for the old time way.

I have family that still lives around Royalton area. Maybe someday, I'll be able to visit Mt. Moriah. Even though there are "formalities" that have been placed on church names, I believe I would feel at home in any of the old time baptist churches.

and feel associations are products of the churches not the other way around. Amen. It's amazing how much people forget that the association is an advisory and not in charge of the churches.

old regular
06-24-2004, 01:13 AM
Dear Frogman,
The next regular meeting of the Blessed Hope Church will be the Second Sunday in July( the 11th)@ 9:30 cst.I however Lord's will,I, will be in Flordia this date, the next Fri/Sat/Sun is the SGA meeting this will be the 16th/17th/18th of July,starting @12pm on Fri,Sat(9:30)Sun(9:30)there will also be afternoon and evening services on Sat.Blessed Hope also meets every Sunday Night at6p.m cst it is on Spruce Pine Rd before you get to Sanders Ridge make a right on first road to your right after you turn on Moxely Rd from 206 by the little store(Moxely has a road number when coming from the Adair Co side its the same road that Hughes Apple Orchard use to be on.This Church meets every 2nd Sunday that follows a Sat every month at (9:30 a.m)We Would love to have you!My Number is 606-787-0144 I live near Clementsville, Ky.I have a good friend who lives in Cane Valley Robert Ellis he loves the doctrines of Grace and sometimes vists Blessed Hope. Your Brother in Hope
M.Slone

DrewH
07-01-2004, 01:39 PM
Hey - not having all the minutes to the Green River Association, I cannot determine for sure when Cane Valley was a part, but I know that it is not currently.

rlvaughn
07-01-2004, 09:46 PM
Bro. Dallas, I apologize; I've been "asleep at the wheel". I have an off and on collection of Green River minutes back to 1962. I looked and Cane Valley Baptist Church is never mentioned that far back (but I do have missing years). Hope this helps.

DrewH
07-12-2004, 09:17 PM
Hi - anyone who wants a complete set of Barren River Association minutes and a narrative of its 170+ history go to www.barrenriverassociation.org (http://www.barrenriverassociation.org) and email me if you're interested.

Bethelassoc
07-20-2004, 09:10 AM
Getting back to ORB, I was fortunate to talk to a man whose father was a minister in the Thornton Union Assoc. He said that he's obtained his father's minute books and has cassette tapes of services.

I'm gonna try to keep in touch with him through a friend of mine.

OldBethAssn
07-29-2004, 01:01 PM
Hello Bro's... I agree that historically that the lack of ministers was a primary cause of the one Sunday per month meeting, but it appears that in recent years the lack of a congregation at each church seems to play a role in the rotation of service in my area. The churches need to take the congregation with them to each local to have a larger congregation.

Bethelassoc
08-04-2004, 09:03 AM
OldBethAssn:

It's good to have you on here.

I also believe that today the once a month services are based on the lack of congregation. Also some preachers pastor more than one church due to lack of ministers.

Are there any ORBs that meet on a weekly basis? I'm trying to remember if some of the churches do back in Indiana.

John N C
08-29-2004, 10:52 PM
I enjoyed reading all the messages concerning the Old Regural, Regural Primitive, Primitive and United Baptist. Really enjoyed the ones concerning Mates Creek, Sand Lick and Burning Springs Associations as I have attended all of the assocations in years past. I have not been able to attend any of these assocations in the last several years and reading anything recent concerning them is a pleasure. However, there is another assocation that I did not see mention. It is The Rock Spring Assocation consisting mostly of Churches at that time in Rowan, Carter, and Elliott Counties Kentucky. It was organized from the Burning Springs Association at Old Tar Kil Church in Carter County, Kentucky.
Not sure of the year of organization, but I think it was around 1856.

John

Bethelassoc
08-30-2004, 08:42 AM
John N C:

Thanks for posting. I'm glad that you shared your input with us. I would like to know more about this association, Rock Spring. This is the first I've heard of it and now have more reason to get back into ORB research. Thanks!

David

Bethelassoc
08-31-2004, 09:13 AM
John N C:

When you get the chance, tell us about your background with the ORBs, please.

I enjoy this forum for its opportunities for learning.

John N C
09-02-2004, 01:46 PM
Brother David and everyone else:
I was born October 1951, in Cranston, Rowan County, Kentucky about 9 miles or so from Morehead, Kentucky and about 60 miles east of Lexington, Kentucky. I joined the Little Perry Regural Primitive Church east of Morehead, Kentucky in January 1966 and was baptise on 12 February 1967.
Mom was a member of the Regural Primitive Baptist Church at New Burlington, Ohio, later moved her membership to New Hope Regural Primitive Baptist Church at Cranston, Kentucky. Dad always attended but never belonged, mostly at New Hope.
Attended most of the Burning Springs Assocations from the time that I can remember to about 1965, when there was a problem in some of the churches and the different assocations.
Still attended some.
Attended Rock Springs Assocation from the time I can remember until I let Kentucky to work in other places, except for the time I was in the military and then I was sometimes able to be able to attend at least part of the assocation.
Attended a couple of Iron Hill Assocation of United Baptists and several different annual meetings of either churches or assocations.
Anyone wanting to know more about me, feel free to send me an e-mail at kansaskidmky@earthlink.net and I will try and answer as best I can.

rlvaughn
09-03-2004, 06:38 AM
Dear Brother John N C - welcome to the Baptist Board. Thanks for the input on Old Regular Baptists. We look forward to hearing more from you.

John N C
09-08-2004, 07:11 PM
Things are beginning to get back somewhat to normal. Was out of electric for 36 hours, but a lot of people still out. No really bad flooding near me and not any really bad wind damage although we were missably because of the wind for about 24 hours.
Thank God that he spared us from any more damage.

John

old regular
10-01-2004, 12:57 AM
Dear Brother John,
Does the Rock Springs Association still exist?I
know the Ironhill still does,and the Little Ironhill Churches went into one side of the New Hope United Baptist.Ironhill split years ago over the McCoy Doctrine no church till Pentecost.Where in Flordia is Cyrstal River, we have a corresponding church in Flordia a member of the Bethel Association of Old Regular Baptist. Bro Mike

Bro. James
10-01-2004, 06:02 AM
"On this rock I will build my assembly; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her." Mt.16.

This is one of many scriptures which promises the pillar and ground of the Truth in every generation.

Her history is covered in blood. She has been persecuted in every generation. This does not mean that all the persecuted are True Assemblies. The world is filled with that which is "pseudo."

The Lord knows them that are His. He has preserved them through bitter persecution. He continues to do so.

If one is looking for an assembly which stands for the truth, beware the large crowds which are looking to be entertained.

Selah,

Bro. James

Bro. James
10-03-2004, 01:52 PM
What is in a name? The yellow pages under "churches" will reveal many pages of listings of groups all calling themselves churches. Which ones did Jesus build?

Selah,

Bro. James

Bethelassoc
10-05-2004, 02:19 PM
Dear Bro. Slone:

Do you mean Iron Hill Association? Is there an Old Regular Baptist Association by that name? I always thought there were only two Iron Hills that were United Baptist.

old regular
10-06-2004, 02:06 AM
Dear Bethel Association,
You are correct,the Ironhills I was referring to are Old United Baptist Associations only the Big Ironhill exists at present.I have never known of any Old Regular Baptist Association with this name.I knew some ministers that once belonged to Little Ironhill.

Bethelassoc
10-06-2004, 08:28 AM
Bro. Slone:

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I've been told about two Iron Hills, but was never able to verify it.

Several members of Iron Hill have given me information on where to get the Sweet Songster and Thomas Hymnal, and for that, I'm grateful. There are several in my family (including myself) that want to keep the old songs going.

David

old regular
10-06-2004, 09:42 PM
Bro.David,
We use the Thomas,Sweet Songster,Lloyds,Gobel and others that have been put out by other old
school brothers.I was told that the Sweet Songster was originally a Methodist Hymnal,The Thomas a Regular Baptist, the Lloyds and Gobel Primitive Baptist.I am thankful that you are keeping up that tradition.Most of the United Baptist I have been with line their songs ,like we do and practice much like the Old Regulars,but not all.

Bethelassoc
10-07-2004, 08:45 AM
I've been trying to collect hymns and I also have the Gobel song book. You're right, most of the United Baptists here in Missouri have not heard lining out songs and those that have, have not heard it since they were young.

I am hoping to bring this style back into the churches. It's bery difficult when nobody else knows how to.

Bethelassoc
10-12-2004, 11:33 PM
Bro Slone:

Where can one get a Lloyds book? For that matter the Goble as well. I purchased my Goble off of eBay.

I posted a page of the history of Little Martha ORB. I was fortunate to get a picture from my mother when she went back to KY for a visit.

http://newprovidence.8m.com/Little%20Martha.html

David

old regular
10-14-2004, 02:41 AM
Dear Bro.David,
You might be able to get a Lloyds from the Primitive Baptist Library, Carthage Ill.(Robert Web) also they still print it in Georgia.It is very popular with some of the Black Primitive Baptist Associations.The Little Martha Church is where my Great Aunt, Anne Shepherd and her husband Jimmie were members until both of their deaths.At one time there were several Old Regular Baptist Churches in Magoffin CO one was @ Grassy but as the coal mines went out some of these communties died along with their churches.I only know of two more Old Regular Baptist Churches in that county besides Little Martha,Holbrook Memorial on Middle Creek in the MT.Liberty Asso. and the one I pastor, Mt.Moriah on Lakeville RD it joined the SGA this year.

old regular
10-14-2004, 10:39 PM
Bro.David:
The address for obtaining a Lloyds Hymnal;
Primitive Baptist Hymns Corp
Ms.Betty Woodard Box92, Rocky Mount, N.C 27802-0092 telephone 252)291-2439 cost $8.95 plus postage arond $3.00
Bro. Slone
PS. It N.C not G.A
The Gobel is Available From the Primitive Baptist Library among other sources

Bethelassoc
10-15-2004, 03:49 PM
Thank you, Bro. Slone for all the information.

I've talked to Elder Webb on a couple occasions about some associations in IL. I'm keeping a list of where to find these songbooks in case others are looking for them.

Someday, I'd like to be able to visit "Little Marthy" and visit family that go there. I'd also like to visit Mt. Moriah as well.

Bethelassoc
11-02-2004, 09:32 AM
Another discussion I would like to add to the Old Regular Baptists is the lined out singing. It is not exclusive to the ORBs but it is known to go hand in hand with them.

Do any of you know of other groups that line out their songs and know what methods they use? For example, there are some PBs in southern GA that line out songs and the congregation sings it back in Sacred Harp style.

Bro. James Reed
11-03-2004, 08:49 PM
We line out songs on occassion. The sad thing is that nowadays there are very few men who can actually line a song the way our forefathers did. There was just something about the way they used to do it.

Since most PB churches have enough songbooks to go around there is no longer a real need to line songs, except in cases where there are verses missing from a song in a particular book.

When a song is lined, the leader will sort of "sing song" the line and then the congregation will repeat to the recognized tune. BTW, I mean "sing song" as being comparable to the way many Elders preach, not as in they actually sing the line to its tune.

Currently, I know of only one Elder who can actually line a song "the way they used to". He also happens to be my cousin.

rlvaughn
11-03-2004, 09:32 PM
Which cousin is that James? I've never heard a elder in Texas line the "way they used to" or the way it is done in the Appalachias and parts of Alabama & Georgia. I'd love to hear him sometime. [P.S. - we're having a Sacred Harp singing in Houston on December 4th, but I think one of the churches is also having an ordination that day]

David, groups that I know of that still line songs are mostly confined to the Appalachias (Old Regular, Regular, United, Primitive), though I have heard it among Primitive Baptists in Georgia, Alabama, and Texas. The folks in the Hoboken area of southeast Georgia sing some of their "responses" in Sacred Harp style, but I think more in the old "unison" style. In much of the deep south, unlike the Appalachias, Primitive Baptist singing often sounds like a Sacred Harp singing because of many of the folk's long-standing connection with it.

Bro. James Reed
11-03-2004, 11:51 PM
The cousin is Elder Harold Horn. Up until this year he was pastor of the church at Waco, which incidentally is having a meeting this weekend that I am hoping to attend. Harold will probably be there and if asked to lead it is a good possibility that he will be asked to line a song or two. When my grandmother's older sister died in January he led the singing and lined a song. I might be wrong, but I believe his membership is with the church at Hubbard, it used to be anyway. That is the church that my family came out of before organizing a church here in Houston.

There is indeed a double ordination that Saturday. Brian Ramsey will be ordained a Deacon and Ron Smith, whose membership used to be at our church, will be ordained an Elder. It will be at the Grace Church.

BTW, I think the reason Harold is so able to line the songs the way he does is because, #1 his parents' generation of our family was from Arkansas, and before that from Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and beginning in Virginia in the 1600's. It seems like every generation moved to a new state. Harold is the family historian, before me and also whom I learned much of what I know about the family, so he has seen and heard pretty much all of our family's history, as well as PB church history since we've been there from the get-go.

Not to insult him either, but he is also fairly old. I believe he's around 83, so he was around when the liners were very prevalent.

Well, I've rattled on enough for now. If you would like to go to the Waco meeting let me know and I'll give you directions.

Bro James

Bethelassoc
11-04-2004, 11:51 AM
My old home church will still line out songs. I know several tunes to some of the songs. My father, brothers, and other relatives still line out songs. We do sing them in harmony although some of my family in the Old Regulars still sing in unison.

(Bro Vaughn, I'm still waiting for a reply to the Thomas Hymnal and Sweet Songster. I hope to hear soon.)

A book that I've been reading about Lousiana Baptist states that they did (back in the early 1900s) line out their songs, but it seems like they spoke the line rather than sing it out.

A good example of where the lined out singing got its roots is the CD, "Gaelic Psalms from Lewis". I found the info at this website:
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/resource/chap13.html

The songs are sung in Gaelic but you can here the precentor and the response. It's quite moving.

AltonSon
11-04-2004, 01:59 PM
Primitive Baptist = Hardshell, right?

Sovereign Grace Baptist = Old Regular Baptist?

How do we keep the two straight?

rlvaughn
11-04-2004, 05:10 PM
Sovereign Grace in the case of this thread is the name of an Old Regular Baptist Association. Sovereign Grace Baptist probably most often refers to Baptists who accept the 5 points of "Calvinism".

Primitive Baptists are often referred to as "Hardshells". Though the term is embraced by some, it is probably rejected by most.

Could be hard to keep it all straight without a lot of work!

Bro. James Reed
11-04-2004, 08:17 PM
My apologies Bro. Robert, the meeting at Waco is next weekend, Nov. 13 & 14.

Bethelassoc, the term "Hardshell" comes from one of a few possible roots. Primitive Baptists are quite often perceived as being very stubborn in our beliefs and refuse to change by adding modern innovations that many today would see as no big deal. The term hardshell could possibly be in relation to the more common phrase today, hardhead.

Another possibility is it comes from our having thick skins. We have often in times past been rejected as too old fashioned and cast down, called derogatory names, about 8 or so that I can think of off hand, including Hardshell. We are said to be impenetrable to modern innovations and seen as a group that just can't be killed, like a turtle with a hardshell.

The third possibility, and probably the correct one, is that the term originated as "Hardshall" and slightly changed over time. Our preachers often emphasize the word "shall", such as in, "He SHALL save His people from their sins." It is basically meant to say that we emphasize a "hard shall" in order to hammer the point home that our salvation is in the hands of Jesus alone and not man. If we have ever been saved, then we SHALL be saved. This is the one I think is probably correct, at least it's the most commonly accepted reason amongst our people.

I don't mind the term Hardshell too much. It, to me, invokes what is at the foundation of our beliefs, that Jesus Christ is in complete control of our salvation.

The most common terms that we use for ourselves are Primitive, of course, Old Baptist, and Old School Baptist.

Hope this helps you figure it out.

BTW, from what I understand, many of the Old Regulars have introduced things such as musical instruments and now look more like modern Baptist churches than like us Primitives. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that is the case.

Bro. James

rlvaughn
11-04-2004, 09:04 PM
Bro. James, as far as I can ascertain, none of the Old Regular Baptists use musical instruments, and the majority of them even reject "note books". Many of the Regulars, though, do allow musical instruments. The main difference between Old Regulars and Primitives might be that the Old Regulars take a little "softer" stance on predestination and election.

Next week would probably be better for me for the meeting. We may go to a singing tomorrow night in Arkansas, and plan to go to one Saturday near Lufkin. So a 3 hour trip to Waco on Sunday would probably have been too much. But next weekend we'll be in Dallas on Saturday and might swing down to Waco on Saturday night or Sunday. What times of day do they meet? Thanks.

Bro. James Reed
11-04-2004, 11:43 PM
I don't recall the exact times they'll be meeting, but I do know that they won't be having any night time services; you know, many members of the 3 sponsoring churches, Waco, Corsicana, and Hubbard, are older and can not travel at night.

if you go to the website for the banner of love it will say there. At least, the announcement was in the paper when we received it a couple weeks ago.

click here for Banner of Love website (http://www.banneroflove.net)

Hope you can make it for at least part of the meeting. If not, you could always make plans to come to the Hubbard meeting next July. :D Lots of time to prepare for that one.

Bethelassoc
11-05-2004, 10:39 AM
Yes, none of the Old Regulars have instruments in their churches. I believe in some churches, there's a debate on singing only lined out songs or allowing "solo singing".

Some United Baptists do have music (piano for the most part), and it depends on location. Most Appalachian United Baptists don't and they have a close tie-in with the Old Regulars.

ORBs are for the most part "softshell", which I take to mean not fully 5 point. We United Baptists, on some issues are also considered hardshell and I think Bethel Associations label is due to the antimissions attitude it had in the 1800s.

Bro. James Reed
11-05-2004, 03:33 PM
I was probably thinking about just Regular Baptists rather than Old Regulars. Regulars do have instruments don't they???

Bethelassoc
11-05-2004, 04:18 PM
In a nutshell, yes. Of course, it depends on which type of "Regular" you are referring to. That's when it gets hairy..

But Old Regulars don't.

Bethelassoc
11-11-2004, 09:33 PM
Another thing to add about line singing:

In the book, "House Upon a Rock", Mr. Glen Lee Greene mentions on pgs 204 - 205:

Church music was a curiosity that evolved but little in the decades following the introduction of a popular hymnal edited by J.R. Graves. In keeping with a practice then in vogue, this hymnal contained only the words of the hymns. It was customary for a leader to "line out" the hymns in churches that could not afford hymnals. Often this was a function of a deacon, who read aloud the words of the hymn line by line, the others singing after him. When hymnals were available but contained only the words, the appointed leader was required to "hist the tune", an introductory procedure in which a few words of the hymn were sung so that the others might recall and sing the tune correctly. The book by Graves was, "The New Baptist Psalmist, For Churches and Sunday Schools".

OldRegular
11-23-2004, 11:09 PM
I have not read all the posts on this topic, however, it has been suggested that the Old Regular Baptist Churches meet only once a month at a given place because of shortage of preachers. Actually most worship services involve 3-4 preachers. These preachers are not necessarily from the Church at which the service is occurring but may be visiting preachers.

Generally, after an extended period of singing, one preacher will "Introduce" the preaching service with a short sermon . Then one or more preachers will bring a message. The services will be closed with a final sermon.

This final sermon is generally the most emotional time during the service and is closed when the preacher calls for a song. During this song an invitation is given, generally as follows: "The doors of this church are open to receive anyone who has experienced the grace of God in salvation." The invitation is totally different from Southern Baptist Churches where people are implored to "accept Jesus Christ as Savior".

Though I have not attended a service at an Old Regular Baptist Church for several years I believe the above to be correct.

Squire Robertsson
11-24-2004, 12:05 PM
Sounds alot like the Russian EC-B services I attend.

old regular
11-24-2004, 08:00 PM
The Old Regular Baptist are divided at this time into two seperate parties, softshell and hardshell
both reject musical instruments, sunday schools,missionary boards, salaried ministry.The hardshell side holds the original doctrine of the Old Regulars when they split with the absolute predestination Primitive Baptist in the 1800s their main point of contention was that the Old Regulars held that God forknew the fall of Adam vs God predestinated Adams fall, The Old Regulars believed that Gods Decree was two part,some things he permittted or suffered to happen and some things he directed this they held was different from predestination which they held was limited to the Elect Church and Christ, thus they would not fellowship the doctrine that God was the direct author of every evil event to come to pass.They seemed to prosper until the 1960s,When some Brothers in the Union Assoc. adopted some Arminian points of Doctrine that led to a split over such things as Light and Life,No scriptures to Sinners,eternal children,etc... these issues where never resolved Churches that would not go along with the new doctrines would either stay in their associations and vist one anthor or break off and form new associations such as Bethel,Soveriegn Grace or else an association would become isolated like Mud River,Mountain etc...So even at the present there are Hardshell churches among the softshell associations but there is no softshell churces among the hardshell associations.These terms are used but not liked among Old Regulars.The softshell associations and churches have kept the traditional dress codes etc.. better than the hardshell side with the exception of the SGA and a few former Thorton Union Churches,The hardshell side has kept the original ORB doctrine better than the softshell side.To put it in a nut shell the softshells preach man chooses God but only after he recieves his call ,the hardshell side preaches God Chooses the man and through the working of his(GODs)mighty power they believe,and repent.The soft side believes the sinner has life after he repents through Grace the hard side believes the sinner repents after he has life or has been quickened by the Spirt.Soft side believes man has something to do with his salvation the hard side belives it is all of Grace. Bro.Slone

OldRegular
11-30-2004, 08:28 PM
old regular

I left that neck of the woods in 1953 and have only visited there since. Looks like things have changed a lot. I had an uncle who was moderator of the Union Association until his death in 1957. He was able to keep the divergent views pacified but after his death things changed.

The Sovereign Grace Association is a new one to me. Most of the other names I recognize.

OldRegular

old regular
12-01-2004, 12:09 AM
The "Mother Church" in the SGA was a New Salem Association Church in its beginning. I visted a Northern New Salem (a daughter of New Salem)Church over the Holiday they seem to be drifting into decisional regeneration their singing was very traditional ORB their Dress was also their doctrine was not even a distant cousin this may be the reason they have declined in membership from nearly 1200 to 653.I would not consider them as true Old Regular Baptist.Ten years ago that make a decision for Christ would have been rebuked sharply even among the soft shelled side.

old regular
12-01-2004, 12:18 AM
Dear Old Regular,
Who was your Uncle that was Moderator of the Union Association.We have an Elder in his 90s who @ that time belonged to the Russel Prater Church and I am sure he would have known him.In 1953 the ORBs had not divided since the Regular- Primitive Split in the 1890s and there after.
Thanks for your interest. Mountain Valley is also a newer ORB Association they favor the Sovereign Grace Position.

old regular
12-01-2004, 02:04 AM
Dear Bethelassoc,
The Indian Bottom Association had a church in MO called the Ky Church what become of it I dont know it was near a town called Tansey or something close to that maybe Taney I am not sure.I haven't found a minute telling where they went.If anyone knows I would love to hear from you. Bro.Slone

Bethelassoc
12-01-2004, 09:06 AM
Dear Bro Slone:

I found a Taney just south of Springfield near Amish country. I'm also told that there are some churches in that area that still have the name "United Baptist", though they are not, as far as I know.

I would love to find out more about this church. How long ago do the minutes say this church existed? I wonder if there are any I.B. members that may have some answers to that.

David

rlvaughn
12-02-2004, 08:25 PM
David, my grandmother was born in Stone County, just west of Taney County. When I've visited relatives there, I've never seen any Baptist churches in that county other than Southern Baptists. There is (or was) an association over around Ava (Douglas County) that probably is a descendant of United Baptists, but identify themselves as "Old-time Missionary Baptist". The last I heard this association (called County Line) was dwindling down pretty small.

Bethelassoc
12-03-2004, 10:02 AM
Bro. Vaughn:

Maybe it's a different Taney, as in the name of a community rather than a town (w/zip code). We have a church called Oak Grove in a community called Oak Grove, but there are three different areas called Oak Grove in the state.

I've heard of County Line Association, and in fact, it used to be a part of National Association back in the early days. I think they've always been Missionary, though, I'm not certain. I would guess that they came out of United Baptists.

David

OldRegular
12-08-2004, 12:14 AM
I saw the name Rufus Perrigan mentioned several times earlier. He ate Sunday dinner in our home many times. My recollection is that he had a brother, or perhaps a cousin, who was recognized as one of the best preachers at that time [late 40's and early 50's] but I can't remember his first name. I could be wrong though. It has been a long time. Well, while I was writing this his name came to me, it was George.

Dad had a copy of Perrigan's history but I don't know what happened to it.

I never have figured out how my Mom cooked for so many people.

I tell folks down here that we had Sunday School before and after Sunday dinner, listening to these old Saints discuss the finer points of doctrine and Scripture. I have to confess that my upbringing and my memories often conflict with some of the things I see going on in the Southern Baptist church I attend.

old regular
12-08-2004, 03:38 AM
Elder George Perrigan went with the Bethel Association during the split with the Union he passed away shortly after I think if its the same Elder also Bro. Rufus sided with the Bethel(free grace)brethern.

Bethelassoc
12-08-2004, 09:18 AM
OldRegular:

I have that book by Rufus Perrigan. I'm trying to keep my eyes open for other copies. I've had several ask me to sell the book to them, but since this book also has some of my family history in it, I will hold onto it.

OldRegular
12-08-2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by old regular:
Dear Old Regular,
Who was your Uncle that was Moderator of the Union Association.We have an Elder in his 90s who @ that time belonged to the Russel Prater Church and I am sure he would have known him.In 1953 the ORBs had not divided since the Regular- Primitive Split in the 1890s and there after.
Thanks for your interest. Mountain Valley is also a newer ORB Association they favor the Sovereign Grace Position. I responded by note. Don't know if you got it yet.

old regular
12-09-2004, 02:30 AM
Dear Old Regular S.C,
I sent you a note back at least I think I did if you did not get it please let me know.I have heard of your Uncle,, all good things, and I was told he was a peacemaker.His passing was before my birth.The Union had and may still have a Church near NC/SC line ,not far from the ocean.There was a book put out on the Old Regulars mostly the Softshell side called Brothers and Sisters in Hope the Old Regular Baptist of Central Appalachia.I think the author was a Howard Drogan. Bro.Slone

lets_reason_toghether
12-09-2004, 01:40 PM
What is the difference between an "old line regualar baptist" and a "primitive baptist"

thanks

old regular
12-09-2004, 11:47 PM
There is not much difference they both came from the same original associations.In doctrine they are very close,however the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation.They believe that Gods election is the only cause for any of Adams Race being saved,but election or God can not be blamed for the unbelievers final fate that man is responsible for his actions. While the condemnation they recieve was ordained of old they themselves were not predestinated nor elected for Hell and the lake of fire.This is the end result of their unbelief.I know that may sound a bit confusing to some but the Original ORB do not hold God to be the direct author of a mans sins but do believe that Christ is the author and finisher of a mans faith.We believe one must be begotten or quickened by the Spirt before they can have faith or repent of their sins.That the Gospel is for those who have life and is not a means of obtaining life.ORBs are just anthor branch of Primitive or Old School Baptist.In some associations like SGA they would not seat secret orders in their local church communion the Sisters are not to cut their hair, wear excessive jewerly or paint their faces wear mens clothing including pants, pant suites. Dresses are to be modest and below the knee shorts are not worn. Brothers are to keep their hair short not allowed to be immodest in dress must wear their pants below the knees, pay honest debts,they also believe their members should not engage in combat, if they serve in the military they can be corpsmen,medics nurses etc.. while most don't fool with it peroid.It is frowned upon!Some have served before God called them.These are just a few things that may or may not be different from the Old School Baptist that use the name Primitive, I am speaking generally of the SGA here, as many know ORB churches today can range from absolute predestination of all things to make a decision for Christ doctrines. Bro.Slone

old regular
12-13-2004, 08:21 AM
On the subjet of Old Line Old Regulars and Primitive Baptist,I failed to mention that some of the Primitives here in Ky preach and believe that they were saved and born again before the foundation of the world,this doctrine of actual eternal vital union is also found in some of the black Primitive Baptist Churches.This is in contrast to the Old Regular position that we where chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world,Elected according to his foreknowledge,but are by nature the children of wrath even as others until God sends forth the Spirt of Adoption to claim us thus we are born again in time,God would not need to predestinate to adopt children that already were his children.So we believe we were elected before the foundation of the world and in the mind of God, God calleth those things that be not as though they were,but we actually did not have eternal life ourselves till we were quickened by the Spirt.The purpose and Grace to save us was in Christ,eternal life had been promised,thus the election had been held according to Grace all before the day star knew its place.The name Primitive Baptist and Old Regular Baptist cover alot of ground this day and age, alot depends which group you are in reference to.There is little difference in Old Line Primitives Doctrine and ours. Practice would differ mainly concerning dress and all of our churches line their songs.There is no paid ministry among us but people do give to help ministers who travel with their expenses and they take them home with them and provide them with what ever they need while traveling. Bro.Slone

Bethelassoc
12-14-2004, 10:02 PM
Dear Old Regular Brethren:

I have a question about the associations. Since there is evidence of doctrinal variances (softshell and hardshell), are there also variances in worship? I know that there aren't major differences but was wondering which associations would be considered moderate and which ones would be considered quite conservative or if they are all the same in that manner.

For example, Sovereign Grace and Bethel (ORB - for clarification) would be considered hardshell, so their modes of worship are probably the same. Am I off on this?

David

old regular
12-15-2004, 02:49 AM
Dear Brother David,
There is no real difference in the mode of worship among Old Regular Baptist Associations differences in communion occur but often whithin the same association.The Mountain Association services are introduced with prayer.The churches in the other associations sometimes open with prayer only after singing some hymns or will use a brother to introduce the services.Some churches may have some special singing but most that do have came out of the United Baptist or Primitive.In our churches women do not sing behind the pulpit nor would they in the majority of ORB some associations have some harmony singing a few allow notebook songbooks an example would be the Friendship Asso. they also correspond with what we refer to as the progrssive Regular Baptist.They have churches that sometimes have instruments and Sunday School,they don't call themselves Old Regular Baptist some call themselves Union Baptist.What little difference between the different churches is based on location more than doctrine.We correspond with associations that have churches that rarely line.Bethel would not be in that group they line 99% of the time, when they don't its usally a vistor that sings straight through.
Bro. Slone

Bethelassoc
12-15-2004, 10:11 AM
What little difference between the different churches is based on location more than doctrine.That's exactly how I feel about the United Baptists. There's slight variance by region more so than by articles of faith or doctrine.

Thanks for that insight. I figured that there was very little difference in style of worship among the ORB but wanted to make sure.

David

zane 446
01-03-2005, 12:36 AM
Gentlemen

I am new on the board, and I have enjoyed going through the information posted here about the Old Regular Baptists. I am a member of an "Old Time" Missionary Baptist Church in the Ozark Mountains in Missouri, and I notice certain similarities among the histories of the Old Regular, Regular, United, Primitive, and Missionary Baptist churches (along with all the sub-categories in each tradition) in that they in one way or another represent a move away from "modernism" in the church and/or state/national "conventions" that usurp the independence of the local church or association. In this part of Missouri, the Missionary Baptists gradually split from the Southern Baptist Convention during the first half of the 20th century, in many areas as late as the 1950's. There is a wonderful history, I feel, in the survival of these traditions that is almost unknown outside the individual groups, although the Primitive Baptists seem to be more active than others in preserving their heritage and history. I appreciate the work you have done in researching the histories of the Old Regular Baptists and other groups that have been mentioned in this thread.

Zane

Bethelassoc
01-06-2005, 11:18 AM
Zane:

If you are interested, I can pm you a friend's email address that's involved with Old Time Missionary Baptists in Western KY. He has a site for members, too.

Bro. Slone:

Could you tell me about the Mountain Valley Association? I saw them mentioned in the 2003 SGA minute book. Thanks.

David

zane 446
01-06-2005, 09:39 PM
David

Thanks, I would appreciate that.

Zane

old regular
01-13-2005, 02:47 AM
Dear Bethelassoc,
The Mountain Valley Association of Old Regular Baptist has churches in Va,Ohio,Ky their doctrine is pretty much the same as SGA or Bethel Associations they preach free Grace or Election by Grace. Their practice varies from church to church, one church has almost no line singing they don't seem to be as strict on dress as SGA.Their churches had all at one time belonged to Thorton Union, they left that association and formed their own.This association was not a split nor were they an arm from T.Union.It is made up of churches who over time quit lettering to Thorton Union, we preach with them and maintain a working relationship with them. Bro. Slone

rlvaughn
01-16-2005, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by zane 446:
...I notice certain similarities among the histories of the Old Regular, Regular, United, Primitive, and Missionary Baptist churches (along with all the sub-categories in each tradition) in that they in one way or another represent a move away from "modernism" in the church and/or state/national "conventions" that usurp the independence of the local church or association. Zane, this is a very astute observation on the commonalities of these Baptist "sub-groups", which are often overlooked because of their differences.

To Bro David: Yesterday I was looking at a book on the Kentuckytown Baptist Church in Grayson County, Texas. It started as the Pleasant Hill United Baptist Church, and the association they helped form - Sister Grove Association - was originally referred to as United or United Missionary. I didn't know if you have them on your list of associations that started out as United Baptist.

Bethelassoc
01-18-2005, 08:31 AM
Bro. Vaughn:

Good to hear from you. I do have Sister Grove down, but not much info other than that. I need to get back to researching those leads soon. Thanks.

Bro. Slone:

That's interesting that an association got started without an arm or a split. How long has Mountain Valley been around?

David

Preacher's Boy
01-18-2005, 12:28 PM
I was raised in orb....both father and grandfather were preachers...are there still active congregations around Cinn or Dayton Ohio?

Bethelassoc
01-19-2005, 09:13 AM
West Chester Old Regular Baptist Church
(513) 777-0007
7069 Tylersville Rd
West Chester, OH 45069

Near Cincinnati, OH (15 mi N)

Preacher's Boy
01-19-2005, 09:50 AM
Thanks...this is probably one that I attended some as a child...I had lost the location in my memory...doug ison

Bethelassoc
01-24-2005, 03:13 PM
I have another question for the ORBs:

What is the consensus of having a service taped for listening purposes? If a person is wanting the tunes to some lined out songs and would like to know if they could tape some service to have those songs preserved?

Is this frowned upon?

David

OldRegular
01-24-2005, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Bethelassoc:
I have another question for the ORBs:

What is the consensus of having a service taped for listening purposes? If a person is wanting the tunes to some lined out songs and would like to know if they could tape some service to have those songs preserved?

Is this frowned upon?

David I have two CD's of Old Regular Baptist songs. The first was made by members of the Indian Bottom Association and produced by Smithsonian Folkways Recordings. I am not sure who made and produced the second album. Listening to them brings back wonderful memories of when I was a child/teenager. I don't believe that either were recorded during a church service.

God in His providence has placed me where there are no Old Regular Baptist Churches. I don't know why but I bow to His grace and wisdom.

Bethelassoc
01-25-2005, 09:32 AM
OldRegular:

I too have two CDs of songs sung by Old Regular Baptists. Both of mine are by Indian Bottom Assoc. But I think about all the other songs out there that still need to be recorded for our benefit.

My main reason is to preserve them. I would love to have a collection of every song possible that is lined out. Another reason is my church has shown interest in learning these songs. They know that I grew up with that style and they would like for me to teach them. The easiest way, I figure, is for them to become familiar with the songs by listening to them.

I do have another option to check on. I came across some work by William H. Tallmadge who studied "Old Regular, Primitive, and United Baptist hymnody in eastern Kentucky, western North Carolina, and western Virginia during the 1960s and 1970s." He has recordings of services as well as minute books, notes, and photographs of his studies. I've been told by Berea College that each tape costs $5 and I think there is a good collection.

http://www.berea.edu/library/Special/saafindaid/saa33.html

David

old regular
01-26-2005, 03:56 AM
Most Old Regular Baptist have some tapes or CD's of services themselves.Much of the opposition to tapping comes from the Elder Brothers who say you can't capture the Spirt on tape.That being said there have been video tapes and news programs, and PBS and the L.A Times have all made tapes and have taken pictures.To the Brother looking for ORB's in the SW Ohio area there are several in different associations with varying doctrine and practices. Yours Truly an ORB

Preacher's Boy
01-26-2005, 09:03 PM
old regular, which 3 or so are you thinking of...
My dad helped start the one in west chester when I was in grade school and started two himself...one in Sligo near Wilmington and another in Goshen...the one in Goshen I think is still active and my cousin Bill Halcomb was the moderator last time I spoke with him.
There was one in Jacksonburg and Dayton as well, but I haven't had contact with them in many years...thanks...doug ison

old regular
01-28-2005, 01:20 AM
The Mountain Association has an ORB church in Newport,Ky there are several ORB in Southeastern Indiana,There is one near Leabnon,Ohio in the Union Association one in Middletown.The first Church I ever took the stand in ,was Northern New Home Ermel Ison was the Moderator/Pastor back then.I went out with his daughter Carla .It was at Goshen and in the Indian Bottom Asso.
bro. M.Slone

old regular
01-28-2005, 01:24 AM
Thanks, Bethel Association for the minute.old regular

sfarmer
01-28-2005, 01:06 PM
I"m kindof new to this board. My personal and spiritual roots lie way back on the Old Regular Baptist Church. I've got both Smithsonian CS ans well as the Lomax CD and listen to them frequently.

I've been wondering -- is it possible to purchase the songbooks? I've got my maternal grandfather's Sweet Songster and another smaller book (whose title I can't recall).

Listening to the CDs makes me wnat to drive up to VA (roots were in the Union Association) or KY for church services.

Susan

Bethelassoc
01-28-2005, 01:51 PM
Susan:

I know of a person to which I can supposedly get copies of Sweet Songster and the Thomas Hymnal, but I haven't gotten a response back to my request yet. I may have to call him instead of write him.

I also have the Goble Primitive Baptist songbook, which I found can be purchased from the Primitive Baptist Library in Carthage, IL:

http://www.carthage.lib.il.us/community/churches/primbap/Goble.html

I also have the New Baptist Songbook which has alot of the same songs that the others have. The only book that I haven't heard about much is the "Old Regular Baptist Songbook". It is mentioned in the booklet on the 2nd volume of the Smithsonian recordings.

There is another book that I have that has the statement, "I Will Sing Unto the Lord as Long as I Live" on it. It is also ORB.

Are there any Old Regular Baptist Churches in TN?

....and by the way, welcome to the board!

zane 446
01-28-2005, 09:00 PM
If you go to the website below, you can actually download three songs from the Smithsonian Folkways CD SONGS OF THE OLD REGULAR BAPTISTS (SF40106). The songs are:

"If I Would Live a Humble Life"
"Attend Young Friend While I Relate"
"I Am a Poor Wayfaring Stranger"

According to the site, these were recorded at Defeated Creek Old Regular Baptist Church in Linefork KY on June 10, 1993.

http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/MusicAtlas/Volume3/playpagevol3ch7.html


Zane

sfarmer
01-29-2005, 04:49 PM
The other songbook that I have is the 1960 "The New Baptist Song Book" published by Foster Ratliff.

To my knowledge there aren't any ORB churches in Tennessee. There might be some up in the tri-cities area, but not any that I know of.

Susan

sfarmer
01-29-2005, 04:52 PM
If you go here

http://www.aca-dla.org/cgi-bin/advsearch.exe

and use "lined-out" as the search term, it returns 34 songs that are in the library archives at Berea University.

Susan

rlvaughn
01-30-2005, 07:22 AM
Susan, the Sweet Songster was in print not too long ago, but the Thomas Hymnal was not. If you're interested, I can send you a private message with the mailing address.

Preacher's Boy
01-30-2005, 03:26 PM
I have a copy of Thomas and Sweet Songster that my grandfather and father used for many years as singers and moderators of orb chuches...some of the lyrics are really quite beautiful...if youve never heard it, the lining out style of song leading is often very moving...you can find it at Amazon music using Old Regular Babptist as the search.

Preacher's Boy
01-30-2005, 03:29 PM
I have a copy of Thomas and Sweet Songster that my grandfather and father used for many years as singers and moderators of orb chuches...some of the lyrics are really quite beautiful...if youve never heard it, the lining out style of song leading is often very moving...you can find it at Amazon music using Old Regular Babptist as the search.

Bethelassoc
01-31-2005, 10:39 AM
Susan:

Thank you so much for the digital library website! I noticed on there that some of the songs are sung by Hurley (Hirley) Smith and wife along with a congregation. I've known him for almost all my life. He pastors, if I remember correctly, Middle Quicksand United Baptist around Jackson, KY.

Preacher's Boy
01-31-2005, 03:35 PM
If anyone has tapes of my father or grandfather singing or preaching, I would apprieciate knowing how to get a copy....I know numberous tapes were made but haven't been able to lecate any....
That would be Ermel Ison or Kirby Ison...thanks..doug ison

Jeff Weaver
01-31-2005, 04:08 PM
To my knowledge there aren't any ORB churches in Tennessee. There might be some up in the tri-cities area, but not any that I know of.

Susan There were a couple in Johnson County, TN in years gone by, but I think the last one there closed about 1935. It was across the road from my grandmother-in-law's house. They got in a controversey over women preachers, and busted to the four winds.

At one time the Eastern District Primitive Baptist Association was in correspondence, IIRC, with some ORBs. (I gave away most of my collection of minutes some years ago). There are several of the congregations of the Eastern District in upper East Tennessee. I am not entirely sure how they view themselves, although we have a couple in our church that belonged to an Eastern District Church at one time.

I did a large print version of the Goble hymnal, if anyone might be interested. (Mainly cause I am going blind). If you are, see http://www.lulu.com/newriver/

There are some other baptist history things there as well, if you are interested.

Jeff

old regular
02-01-2005, 09:38 PM
Preacher's son, I have stayed all night at your fathers house and I am positive that some of his sermons were available on tape(audio)they were recorded by Bro.Fred Ross of Kenova W.Va he is a member of the Indian Bottom Association Bethany Church of Kenova you might be able to find a number from their web site.These were made when he was the pastor of NNH.Elder Kirby Ison someone may have an old reel to reel of him.There is to the best of my knowledge an ORB church in Kingsport Tn.Union Association and there were some meetings held in different parts of Tn to see if their was enough intrest in starting another ORB there.I have never heard of Women Preachers in any old school Baptist Churches.Bro.Slone

Jeff Weaver
02-02-2005, 06:53 AM
There aren't any women preachers in any as far as I know, but in 1934, one was licensed one to preach. Sister Nancy Owen, I knew her children, but that church refused to back down and was tossed from fellowship with the Mountain Union Association. The Church divided, part going off and joining some other churches in the neighborhood, and what was left of that church was closed many years ago. It was located on Forge Creek, Johnson County, Tennessee.

old regular
02-03-2005, 12:47 AM
It is very interesting that something like that could have come about.I remember a brother telling me that there was a Seperate Baptist Church back years ago,I believe it was Shubal Stearn's home church that was supposed to have had a woman "preacher".He said he read it somewhere.I have known of women leading prayer in an ORB church that came from a United Baptist Assn. That incident caused quite a stir and associations where ready to declare non-fellowship with that church.I read about it in the New Salem Assn. Minute.New Salem was the "mother" of Mates Creek and Sandlick Reg.Primitive Associations Also the Union. Bro.Slone

Jeff Weaver
02-03-2005, 10:06 AM
Bro. Slone

You must remember there are two Sandlick Associations, one in Kentucky, very small, and one in Virginia, which is fairly good sized. The larger one (Sandlick in Va - 1967) in Virginia was formed as a result of a split in the old Washington District (1811), which was a daughter of the Holston (1786), which was a daughter of the Sandy Creek (17??). Don't remember off the top of my head.

Bethelassoc
02-03-2005, 03:45 PM
There's a mix of United Baptist churches that have women lead in prayer. I wasn't familiar with it growing up, but I see it more here.

I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere that Separate Baptists were tolerant when it came to women preachers. Are the Separate Baptists today that way? I don't know much about their current views.

Wasn't Sandy Creek in 1758?

BTW, I enjoyed looking at your website, Bro Weaver.

David

Jeff Weaver
02-03-2005, 04:10 PM
I don;t know if the Separates have women preachers now or not, but the Christian Unity Association, had them at one time, before they merged with the separates. I don;t think they have any at present at any rate. I'll have to ask my sister-in-law about that.

There was a Separate type fellow who stopped in awhile back, but haven't seen any more from him.

Around here the Southern Baptists have divided a bit over women in various and sundry roles. As far as I am aware, the Southern Baptists and perhaps the Separates are the only one who have women in deacon or preaching roles. Course the Southern Baptists also have a host of this and that for women, kids, and whom ever, which most of the rest of us dont partake of.

Bethelassoc
02-08-2005, 10:57 AM
I've noticed that the Indian Bottom Association doesn't have a website anymore. Does anyone know what happened to it? It was "oldregularbaptist.org", but now it says that it doesn't exist.

They had some lined out songs that I was able to download before it disappeared.

David

zane 446
02-08-2005, 08:09 PM
The Indian Bottom Association website must have just been down temporarily, because it's back up now. It is a great site!

Zane

sfarmer
02-10-2005, 09:46 AM
The site is down again. If you know the webmaster, and they'd like a little more stable host for their site have them email me. We have a very tiny mom-and-pop ISP (it sits in my basement), and I'd be more than happy to host it for them

sfarmer
02-27-2005, 08:23 PM
Actually I think I may have figured out part of the problem with the Old Regular Baptist web site. The URL is
http://oldregularbaptist.com

Susan

Bethelassoc
02-28-2005, 09:03 AM
Susan:

You're right. I didn't think of that! I wonder why they changed? Anyway, it's good to know it's still up.

David

franniemae78
03-11-2005, 12:34 AM
Wow, I haven't found anyone who knew about the Old Regular Baptist. My grandfather was an Old Regular Baptist preacher in W.V. His name was Nelson Lester. He was a member of Mary Lou Church. He lived in the Welch, Coalwood, Iaeger, area of West Virginia. I use to love listening to his stories about how he was a circuit preacher in Kentucky, Virginia and West Virginia. I think he was a part of the Friendship Association. Has anyone ever heard of him? My Dad was ordained an Old Regular Baptist preacher, too.

My grandpa went home to be with Jesus in July of 1978.

pil grim
03-11-2005, 03:11 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by old regular:
There is not much difference they both came from the same original associations.In doctrine they are very close,however the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation.They believe that Gods election is the only cause for any of Adams Race being saved,but election or God can not be blamed for the unbelievers final fate that man is responsible for his actions. While the condemnation they recieve was ordained of old they themselves were not predestinated nor elected for Hell and the lake of fire.This is the end result of their unbelief.I know that may sound a bit confusing to some but the Original ORB do not hold God to be the direct author of a mans sins but do believe that Christ is the author and finisher of a mans faith.We believe one must be begotten or quickened by the Spirt before they can have faith or repent of their sins.That the Gospel is for those who have life and is not a means of obtaining life.ORBs are just anthor branch of Primitive or Old School Baptist.In some associations like SGA they would not seat secret orders in their local church communion the Sisters are not to cut their hair, wear excessive jewerly or paint their faces wear mens clothing including pants, pant suites. Dresses are to be modest and below the knee shorts are not worn. Brothers are to keep their hair short not allowed to be immodest in dress must wear their pants below the knees, pay honest debts,they also believe their members should not engage in combat, if they serve in the military they can be corpsmen,medics nurses etc.. while most don't fool with it peroid.It is frowned upon!Some have served before God called them.These are just a few things that may or may not be different from the Old School Baptist that use the name Primitive, I am speaking generally of the SGA here, as many know ORB churches today can range from absolute predestination of all things to make a decision for Christ doctrines. Bro.Slone [/QUOTED

Dear Brother Slone,

What is the closest ORB church that I could visit near my home in Rolla, Missouri? I belong to a Primitive Baptist church, but believe your doctrines are true and practices godly. I teach them to my kids, and my wife and daughter always dress modestly. We weren't always this way, but I thank God that He has led us to it and blessed us for it. We are saddened that the church we joined a year ago does not have the same standards, and we sometimes are offended that they mock those who do. I wanted to write you and let you know that it has been encouraging to find out about you brethren and hope you keep godly standards for your people. I have been asked to introduce services in 4 churches, but have not been led to speak of these things to the people, though I have wished I could.

Perhaps we could visit with your people and enjoy the fellowship that comes from those who walk in agreement. Hopefully, we can bless you as much as you have blessed us.

Brother Mike Orloff

Bro. James Reed
03-12-2005, 02:00 AM
Bro. Mike, have you talked over these things with your pastor?

If you are having doubts about the Primitive Baptist doctrine, perhaps I could assist?

What type of Primitive church do you belong to?

Old Line, Progressive, Absolute Predestinarian, etc?

I have not been to a Primitive Baptist church that did not teach modesty in all forms.

What doctrines are you differing on with Primitive beliefs?

I would love to be able to help if I may.

Bro. James

PS I don't want you to think that I am interested solely to keep you in the PB church, but since I am one and since I know what we believe I think I might be able to assist you in finding a church or order that would be the closest suit your beliefs.

I pray that God will guide with His loving hand.

OldRegular
03-12-2005, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by franniemae78:
Wow, I haven't found anyone who knew about the Old Regular Baptist. My grandfather was an Old Regular Baptist preacher in W.V. His name was Nelson Lester. He was a member of Mary Lou Church. He lived in the Welch, Coalwood, Iaeger, area of West Virginia. I use to love listening to his stories about how he was a circuit preacher in Kentucky, Virginia and West Virginia. I think he was a part of the Friendship Association. Has anyone ever heard of him? My Dad was ordained an Old Regular Baptist preacher, too.

My grandpa went home to be with Jesus in July of 1978. I have heard my dad talk about the Mary Lou Church. He was a member of the Bethel Baptist Church and later the Bold Camp Church, both in the Union Association. My uncle was moderator of the Union Association when he died in 1957.

pil grim
03-13-2005, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
Bro. Mike, have you talked over these things with your pastor?

If you are having doubts about the Primitive Baptist doctrine, perhaps I could assist?

What type of Primitive church do you belong to?

Old Line, Progressive, Absolute Predestinarian, etc?

I have not been to a Primitive Baptist church that did not teach modesty in all forms.

What doctrines are you differing on with Primitive beliefs?

I would love to be able to help if I may.

Bro. James

PS I don't want you to think that I am interested solely to keep you in the PB church, but since I am one and since I know what we believe I think I might be able to assist you in finding a church or order that would be the closest suit your beliefs.

I pray that God will guide with His loving hand.

Bro. James,

In response to your questions, I will answer them in order. But before answering, I want you to know that I appreciate your help, and that I am relying on the Lord to guide me through this.

Our church considers itself old-line, and I do not believe I am having doubts about primitive baptist doctrine. However, if you consider the description given by Bro. Slone that indicates distinctions between primitive and old regular baptist, I would say that my beliefs are identical to what he described as old regular baptist. My church, as well as all of the churches I have visited in our association, do not practice what I have been taught and believe is biblical modesty. I have not talked about this with either of the 2 men that pastored our church because the first was terminally ill when I joined, then he died; and, shortly after the second was ordained, there began a division in the association that overshadowed my concerns about modesty. I did feel led to express my beliefs to another pastor in our association, and he said that his father, who also was a PB pastor, believed and taught biblical modesty. However, he did not give any indication that he either believed, practiced or taught it himself.

Well, I hope I have answered your questions adequately.

Thanks again for your interest.

Bro. Mike Orloff

Bro. James Reed
03-14-2005, 01:10 AM
I will post Bro. Slone's post below and give my thoughts on what PBs in our fellowship generally believe.

...the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation. This is in stark contrast to Primitive doctrine. We believe that the truth or the gospel or salvation was and is never presented by God to the non-elect. If Christ had paid for their sins on the cross, in order that salvation may be presented unto them, even for them to refuse, they would not be able to refuse it because our salvation was not something that we can ask for nor turn down once presented to us. There is no need in presenting salvation to those who can not have it.

They believe that Gods election is the only cause for any of Adams Race being saved,but election or God can not be blamed for the unbelievers final fate that man is responsible for his actions. While the condemnation they recieve was ordained of old they themselves were not predestinated nor elected for Hell and the lake of fire.This is the end result of their unbelief. Amen! God does not send anyone to hell. The non-elect are going there because the fall of Adam swept over his entire seed. The non-elect will be judged according to their works, but all of the good works in the world could not help because even the one sin from Adam is enough to convict us. Christ had to die for us in order for us to be saved. If he didn't, then we are not and can not be.

The non-elect were not "sent" to hell, but were left in the state they created in their fall in Adam. When someone goes to hell, it is because they are despised by God and He chose not pick them up out of that pit.

Only God's children are predestinated.

I agree with everything he wrote in that statement.

We believe one must be begotten or quickened by the Spirt before they can have faith or repent of their sins.That the Gospel is for those who have life and is not a means of obtaining life. Amen and amen!

In some associations like SGA they would not seat secret orders in their local church communion Neither would we. Of course, they would also not be allowed into membership, so that would exclude them from communion anyway.

the Sisters are not to cut their hair, wear excessive jewerly or paint their faces wear mens clothing including pants, pant suites. Dresses are to be modest and below the knee shorts are not worn. I disagree here. Although a woman should not shave her head, because it is her covering, the bible does not say she shouldn't cut it at all. That would give her massive headaches. You can ask my aunt about that. Hers used to be down between her rear end and knees.

Of course, you could also go the route that it doesn't matter because Christ's blood covers us.

I would not go for a female member wearing a lot of gawdy jewelry or "painting" herself to the point of looking like a harlot, but taken in moderation, jewelry and make-up are okay, and there is no biblical mandate against either. Does your wife wear a wedding ring?

I have yet to see a "pant suit" worn by a woman to church that I would dare say is for a man and then attempt to wear them myself.

The bible says nothing aside from dressing to look like the other sex.

Women pant suits are made for women. If men wear these pants they will be accused of looking like the other sex. We can not say neither sex can wear something simply based on this.

If they are made for women, then they are women's clothes. If they are made for men, then they are men's clothes.

The purpose of that bible passage was to discourage people from blatantly and purposefully attempting to look like the opposite sex. A woman in a pant suit is not.

Brothers are to keep their hair short not allowed to be immodest in dress must wear their pants below the knees, pay honest debts I would think these are a given since the bible does say that it is a shame for a man to have long hair and to render unto Caesar what is Caesars. That covers the hair and the debts.

As far as dress, I would think it highly inappropriate for a man to wear shorts to church. Of course, there are always extenuating circumstances, so I can't condemn everyone who has ever worn shorts to church outright.

If someone always wore shorts and then asked for a home in the church, I would probably ask them if there is a reason that they always wear shorts. If they just don't want to wear pants, and will not submit to the churches desire for them to dress "appropriately", then that tells me they already have contempt for the church and we should not accept them as a member.

they also believe their members should not engage in combat, if they serve in the military they can be corpsmen,medics nurses etc.. while most don't fool with it peroid.It is frowned upon!Some have served before God called them. I do not agree with this statement at all. If called upon, I would gladly serve my country and I would have the endorsement of my church.

In the Mel Gibson film "The Patriot", the preacher says in one scene, when asked if he was going to fight the British with the Continental Army, "sometimes a shepherd must fight against the wolves in order to protect his sheep."

In order to worship according as we should, we must live in a country that will maintain our right to do so. In order to have that country, we must many times defend it from those seeking to destroy it and all of us with it. I would gladly fight and give my life in order to preserve that right for my fellow Christians.

Bro. Mike, I don't know if your church would agree with all that I have said, but this is the way those Primitive Baptists that I know feel about these situations presented.

If you are truly more in agreement with the ORBs than with the PBs on these issues, then I wish you the best of luck in finding a church to best suit your spiritual needs.

If your feeling is right, then God will indeed direct you.

I have never had to switch denominations, or even churches, and I hope I never have to, so I don't know how to give youany comfort about a possible transition, other than to say to trust in the Lord and where He is leading you.

You are in my prayers.

God bless.

Bro. James

PS I would like to know the name of youe church and/or association/pastor. Just wondering if I know of it/them. You can PM me if you don't mind telling me.