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Non-Cals, what do you believe?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009.

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  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    THis thread is not really for debate, at least not initially.

    I would like for each person to, in their first post to give a positive statement for their own belief.


    This is not for Calvinists ( for the most part we know what they believe)
    But this is for all of those in the "Non Cal" group.

    Please answer the folowing questions:

    1 What is the nature of man's will at birth

    2 Does man require the initiation from God in order to be saved or does man have the ability to have saving faith on his own.

    3. What is the nature of the atonement? Did it pay for sin generally and then is applied to specific men when they believe? Did it pay for all sin universally but is only beneficial to those who believe? Some other belief?

    4. Does God draw each man equally or does he draw some men more than others?

    5. Is the drawing of God required for man to even be saved in the first place?


    The reason I bring this up is that you can answer these questions many ways and still keep your designation as a "non-cal"
     
    #1 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    So what is the purpose in this thread?
     
    #2 Revmitchell, Jul 18, 2009
  3. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    The purpose of this thread is for those claiming to be a ''non cal'' which is a negative statement to give a positive presentation of what they actually believe.

    When we do debate these topics, it is difficult to get a consistent answer across the board from one ''non cal'' to the next.
    So if we assume one believes one way, we are told that is not what they believe at all. I would just like to hear some of you detail your beliefs.
     
    #3 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  4. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    okay, I'll bite...I'm not near my resources today so I can't post appropriate Scriptures

    And yet, we've posted it in the "debate forum." ;)

    Iησου Xριστου κυριοu


    Man has free moral agency from birth to death.

    All faith comes from the conviction and influence of the Holy Spirit in a person's life. God does not force us to accept justification through faith but does provide it freely and not of a work by His grace.

    I believe in penal substitutionary atonement. The atonement applies to those who decide to follow Christ. It covers Sin (big S) that keeps us from God prior to salvation.

    While salvation is available to all people equally initially, the atonement doesn't apply specifically to all people universally. It is provision for salvation individually.

    I don't know. Honestly I just don't know. I know that a dear couple in my previous ministry had two sons separated by two years. One became a Christian at an early age, has lived well for Christ, attended a Christian college and seminary and is in ministry. The other son went down a completely different path. I can't explain that divergence. I don't believe God has decided that some people are in and some people are out in a linear understanding of time. Perhaps predestination doesn't have so much to do with complusion as it does knowledge.

    Well I believe the convictional role of the Holy Spirit is not to be underestimated. A really good word study to do is how the word for "drawing" is used throughout the NT. I've done it, its pretty interesting. :)

    Well my head is squarely in the guillotine. I'm not a Calvinist, I'm Baptist. I appreciate and enjoy John Calvin's theology and respect those who hold a reformed position. I'm not reformed. Well let's see where the arrows land.
     
    #4 preachinjesus, Jul 18, 2009
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    So the point in the thread is bash "non-Cals" (an unscriptural term) by asserting inconsistencies. This is clearly an arrogant and back handed smear which is common from the reformed but not by all.
     
    #5 Revmitchell, Jul 18, 2009
  6. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Man is born in sin. At some point, he knows what is right and yet chooses to do what is wrong.
    God initiated salvation by sending his Son to die for sin. Faith comes by hearing the gospel. Anyone who hears the gospel can be saved.
    In the atonement, Jesus Christ offered a perfect sacrifice that satisfies God's wrath against all sin for all men for all time. Anyone who accepts Christ's perfect work has the blood applied to them.
    Jesus said if he was lifted up, he would draw all men to himself. He was lifted up on the cross, so....
    Yes.
     
    #6 swaimj, Jul 18, 2009
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Gee whiz, grow up. :tear:
     
    #7 Grasshopper, Jul 18, 2009
  8. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Nope, not at all.

    I am truly wanting to understand what you all actually believe.

    PeachinginJesus gave an excellent answer. THat is what I was looking for.

    I do not agree with him totally but at least now I know what he actually believes.

    Speaking of such, It do you (preachinginjesus) then believe in a general atonement for sin then? That is what you implied (or maybe just what I inferred)
     
    #8 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  9. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    I should add, the reason this is in the debate forum is to aid in debating.

    See, I may assume that a "non cal" believes a certain way and then find out he does not.
    By getting a clear positive statement then there is no excuse for misrepresenting someone's belief.
     
    #9 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Hey, I might as well answer these myself. Perhaps it would be useful for anyone to answer these regardless of your theological persuasion.

    The law of God is written on man's heart but man is fallen. Thus man may have a natural inclination to a form of morality but is incapable of pleasing God or choosing God.


    God must draw a man in order for that man to be saved.

    I believe in penal substitutionary atonement as well. I believe in a complete satisfaction for the sins of the elect. The payment was complete at the cross and then is applied in time to those who believe.

    God certainly draws some more than others. Otherwise either no man would be saved or all men would be saved.

    John 6 is pretty clear here. yes, God must draw a man or he will not respond.
     
    #10 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    With statements like this:

    Ever think the problem is your ability to understand what is being said rather than inconsistency? How arrogant.

    Your purpose is exposed.
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Jul 18, 2009
  12. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    My purpose was clearly stated in the OP. you have no evidence of improper motives. I have stated this and I will state this again: i am looking for a positive presentation of what those that claim to be non cals on this board believe.

    If we are to discuss as christian brothers, it needs to be clear what we believe. Please respond to the OP or do not post on this thread, thanks.
     
    #12 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I am responding to your attack:

    Those are your words on this thread. I simply pointed out your smear disguised as a desire for answers. If you cannot deal with your very own words then I suggest you be more careful in your wording so as not to expose your agenda.
     
    #13 Revmitchell, Jul 18, 2009
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    This is tiresome. IF you have a comment on the op, make it. If not, please don't post on this thread.

    Life is too short . . .
     
    #14 Dr. Bob, Jul 18, 2009
  15. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Revmitchel, I have not smeared anyone. It is a fact that not all of those on this board who are not calvinists agree with each other all the time.
    Non calvinists are not always consistent with each other on what they believe on these topics. Calvinists are not always consistent with each other either.

    No hidden agenda and I resent you suggesting such. Please do not hijack my thread any further.
     
    #15 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  16. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Hey I missed this post. Thank you.
     
    #16 Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009
  17. Lux et veritas

    Lux et veritas New Member

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    I have to say, that reading the original post did not in the slightest way give me the feeling this was an effort to bash "non-Cals" by asserting inconsistencies. I thought it was a good answer to your question.

    Hardly is it "clearly an arrogant and back handed smear which is common from the reformed but not by all." Now THAT is a smear. One thing is clear. Arrogance knows no theological limits.
     
    #17 Lux et veritas, Jul 18, 2009
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Hi Dale;
    I can only speake for myself.

    We are born in sin with the probability to sin.
    We are all drawn because Christ was lifted up.
    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Both questions ask the same thing. The atonement is applied when confession is made and that confession will not be made until we believe in the gospel of Christ.
    All men are drawn JN 12:32 God doesn't have respect for any individual.


    Christ died for the sins of the whole world not particular individuals.
    1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    MB
     
    #18 MB, Jul 19, 2009
  19. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    Dale, I agree with much of what you have written. My differences are shown below in the bold type in your answers.

     
    #19 drfuss, Jul 19, 2009
  20. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    THanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.
    To often we as calvinists assume we know what those who disagree with us believe and then we find out they believe something else.

    This is to clear up those misunderstandings.
     
    #20 Dale-c, Jul 19, 2009
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