"Devotion" to Mary...

It is indefensible.

What I cannot help but wonder is why you felt the need to discuss this.

There are very few Catholics here; I only know of one. Therefore, debate with Catholics was obviously not what you are after.

Is it some `dirt' on some church group you hate that you just had to `air'? Were you thinking `Oh boy, this is really juicy -- I bet this can get a really good Catholic bashing session going'? You want to have others join you in a Catholic smear session? Really get those Catholic-hating feelings spurred into a frenzy that feels really, really good?

 

Much as I dislike the OTT language, it is at core a request to intercede/ pray for the petitioner: "secure for us a favorable answer to the request...implore your maternal intercession. Obtain for us, O loving Mother, the granting of our request...you had influence with your divine son while upon earth. You have the same influence now in Heaven. Pray for us; obtain for us from your Divine Son our special requests if it be the Divine Will. Amen." It makes it pretty clear that the Virgin Mary can't grant the requests but that she will ask her Son to grant them (see John 2).

[ETA - BTW, EWTN make the Pope look Protestant...]

 

Queen of Heaven

Well, well....they even call her queen of heaven.

Well how about that: Also see Jeremiah 44

 

Idolatry requires the act of worshipping, as though a deity. Although I share concerns about the use of "queen of heaven", I don't know a single Roman Catholic who, in a deific manner, worships anyone other than the Trinity. That categorically disqualifies the accusation of idolatry.

 

There is a difference between wishing to have a genuinely productive discussion of the errors of Catholicism's precepts, versus wanting to vent on grudges and get them fired up in other people. Too many people seem more interested in the latter than the former.

For those of you who are so eager to indulge your vent ill-feelings about Catholicism or Catholics, and want to spread them to others, please take a moment to read this article:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521721,00.html

THAT is what giving in to those feelings leads to when it runs it full course.

The man had a wife and children. He was a community servant. He was outside in the Catholic neighborhood, and now he is dead because of a group of thugs with anti-Catholic grudges.

For those of you who like these sorts of discussions: ask yourself how you felt about what happened there. Were you sad -- or pleased? This will tell you how far along you are on that course.

 

What Johnv and Darron said.

 

Note After Noah's flood the people built the city of Bablyon under the leadership of Nimrod who married Semiramis. Nimrod was considered to have married his mother and required people to call her their goddess mother. Nimrod was called many names like Moloch and was believed to be reincarnated into Tammuz later known as Baal. Long after Nimrod's death other cultures picked up on this Goddess mother worship: Shing moo; Aprodite; Devaki with Krishna; Diana; Isis with horus; Astoreth with Baal; Venus with Jupiter. Interestingly enough each of these titles were place on one or several of these pagan deities: Madonna; Queen of Heaven; Mediatrix; Astarte...

So, we need to ambush Catholics when they go to their pagan masses and convert them!!! We need to walk in to their churches and spread the gospel since they don't follow it but the "traditions of Man" (particularily Nimrod's). And especially the little old ladies with Lace on their head because they'll end up in judgement first!!! I mean they pay money to light pagan candles and Satan is the angel of light!!!

See Daron Steele I can do baptist (whatever you believe that to mean) though I cringe at the historical inaccuracies I've purpurtated here. Must I also only quote the KJB? :thumbs:

 

I do take the time to think when I post.

What EXACTLY are you hoping to accomplish with this `discussion'?

If it is not to vent and stir up bad feelings, what EXACTLY were you hoping would happen?

If you cannot answer that, then you ought to wonder why you posted this thread.

Here is a hint in your own words:

It looks like you are angry.

You have a grudge, and it feels good to vent it.

Did you read the article I linked?

Venting grudges leads to nothing good.

 

Catholics make too much of Mary. We Protestants make too little of her.

 

Don't forget about Nimrod.

 

Again, this does not answer my question.

You want a "discussion" of some kind. That is clear. I assume you hope it leads somewhere.

WHERE? What OUTCOME? What POSITIVE benefit?

There are no Catholics here except one that has acknowledged being one. Where are all these Catholics you are expecting to lead away from Catholicism? They are not here!

I understand the real reason why people like you post threads like this better than you think I do: have people join you in venting a grudge.

Did you read the article I linked about that murder and the cause of it?

 

They do worship her, all over the world the goddess, queen of heaven, called Mary by catholics is worshiped, prayed to, danced to, bowed to, idolized, and venerated. The Mary of the Catholic Church is not the Mary of my Bible, not the lady who gave birth to my Lord and Saviour. She is a goddess, she is the moon goddess, and she is called by many names. For many catholics she is more important than God and Jesus and in many catholic churches and homes her idols are given the place of preeminence. To deny the worship of Mary is ignorance, to defend the worship of Mary is blasphemy.

 

I know that.

I have read a lot of Catholic polemical literature, and I recognize when Catholic arguments are used to advance Catholic premises.

I also know that Catholic bashing tends to be exploited by Catholic polemicists.

Great.

So, does airing grudges make them more receptive to what is said?

People can sense when something is said out of `non-benevolent' sentiment. They react accordingly.

What are you "exposing"? You are not "exposing" anything if we already know about it.

Mary is worshiped like a goddess but not as a goddess. When you claim that Catholics view Mary as a goddess you only look like some ignorant rube. Catholics know what they think and do not think, and it amazing that some people will argue with them about what they think or do not think! Catholic polemicists use that sort of thing to show that detractors of the Catholic church do not know anything about Catholicism. Good luck convincing Catholics that they view Mary as a goddess -- well, the few that allegedly are around. Granted, Catholics treat her like a goddess, but they know what they think and do not think.

As for us who are not Catholic, we already know about their worship-like veneration of Mary. You are not "exposing" anything if we already know about it.

Catholics do not see idolatry in their practices. When they get concerned that some of the things they do are too close to idolatry, they ask their clergy or other leaders. Those people give them reasonable-seeming answers and they are usually satisfied. They tend to believe their own clergy or lay leaders over non-Catholics who seem to be obsessed with airing grudges.

Exposing "heresy" to whom? This is a Baptist discussion board. Catholics are not allowed to join here anymore. Most of us already here are well aware that the Catholic church is `way out to sea.' Again, you are not "exposing" anything if we already know about it.

What is not "a positive thing" is venting grudges.

Again, I see no indication that you are doing anything more than venting your grudge. Once again, did you read that article that I linked about the murder and the cause? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521721,00.html If you have not read it, what are you afraid of? Being convicted?

 

Like I said, idolatry requires the act of worshipping, as though a deity. Roman Catholics give Mary far too much veneration, imo, but deification of anyone other than the Trinity is against Catholic doctrine. That categorically disqualifies the accusation of idolatry. Excessive veneration, yes, absolutely. Idolatry, no. Acknowlegement of such is not ignorance. It is discernment.

I don't doubt that it occurs (even we Baptists have problems with people with false beliefs, despite those beliefs not being consistent with the Baptist Distinctives) , I only note that the OP does not qualify as idolatry.

 

The key and correct word you use Johnv is "veneration"...There's a huge difference between "veneration" and "worship" and most Protestants are unfamiliar with the term "veneration" and/or the differences...I know I was as a Protestant.

And yes, some Catholics do take the veneration to the extreme. I haven't noticed this extreme in my Orthodox Church. It could be b/c the Roman Catholic Church has developed theological/dogma's centered around Mary more so that the Orthodox Church.

And yes, we do venerate her, sing hymns to her and ask for her intercession. When Mary said all generations shall call me blessed, we defiantly do, and we show it!

In XC
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