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douay rheims/ KJV

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by wfdfiremedic, Oct 17, 2009.

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  1. wfdfiremedic

    wfdfiremedic New Member

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    How similar in translation are these 2 bibles? I read the AV gathered some influence from the DR. I would also assume the DR utilizes a Latin text basis?

    Thanks,
    Chris
     
    #1 wfdfiremedic, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2009
  2. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    The Douay (also Douai) Old Testament was published too late to be infuential on the AV: the first volume Genesis - Job came in 1609; the following year Psalms - 2 Machabees (plus Apocrypha) was released as a second volume. But the Rheims New Testament had been issued in 1582.
     
    #2 franklinmonroe, Oct 17, 2009
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The 1582 Rheims New Testament did have some influence on the 1611 KJV.

    On the other hand, the KJV had influence on the later revisions of the Douay-Rheims.
     
    #3 Logos1560, Oct 17, 2009
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Here are some examples from the Gospel of Matthew where the 1611 KJV followed the rendering in the 1582 Rheims instead of one of the renderings in one of the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles (Tyndale's to Bishops').


    Matt. 1:18 betrothed (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
    married (Coverdale’s, Great) spoused (Rheims) espoused (KJV)
    Matt. 2:6 govern (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Bishops’)
    feed (Geneva) rule (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 3:7 vengeance (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham‘s)
    anger (Geneva, Bishops’) wrath (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 4:24 gripings (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) torments (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 8:6 pained (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) tormented (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 8:20 to rest his head (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) to lay his head (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 11:22 be easier (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) be more tolerable (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 11:23 lift up (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great)
    lifted up (Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’) exalted (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 11:24 be easier (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) be more tolerable (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 15:19 whoredoms (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) fornications (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 16:9 perceive (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) understand (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 17:18 healed (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) cured (Rheims, KJV)
    Matt. 19:12 chaste (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
    gelded (Coverdale’s) eunuchs (Rheims, KJV)
     
    #4 Logos1560, Oct 17, 2009
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    The DR widely available online is really the 1899 American edition of Challoner's eighteenth-century "KJVified" DR revision.
     
    #5 Jerome, Oct 17, 2009
  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Absolutely. Challoner's revision (or more precisely, the successive revisions of Challoner's translation) tends to follow phraseology from the KJV in many cases as opposed to the thinly disguised Latin of the original.

    John Henry Cardinal Newman in 1859 judged that:

    An example of the differences, shown in translations of Ephesians 6:12:

    Douay 1582 (spelling modernized):

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood: but against Princes and Potestates, against the rectors of the world of this darkness, against the spirituals of wickedness in the celestials.

    Current DR:

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.

    KJV:

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Some Roman Catholics are still DR-onlyists; some, in fact, reject the Challoner revision as a corruption of the pure word of the Vulgate.
     
    #6 rsr, Oct 17, 2009
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Thanks for good information.

    I grew up with the 1941 Confraternity (kind of like a RSV of the Douay) and was amazed at how accurate it was to the Greek in TENSES contrasted to other English translations.
     
    #7 Dr. Bob, Oct 18, 2009
  8. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Wow.
    If that comes from one of your booklets you really need to revise it.

    Espoused appeared in Taverner's,
    wrath and understand were in some Coverdales;
    torments, fornications, and eunuchs, in Genevas;
    leye his head dates back to the first Tyndale;
    etc., etc., etc.
     
    #8 Jerome, Oct 23, 2009
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Bump. Just a reminder for those who, noticing the many correspondences between today's Rhemes and the KJB, have erroneously suggested that most of the KJB NT is copied from the earlier Rhemes. In fact, most of these correspondences are due to the eighteenth century revising of Rhemes by Challoner, who freely borrowed from the KJB. You are likely reading the Challoner revision, not the original Rhemes.
     
    #9 Jerome, Jul 1, 2010
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    (Aside: at least knowing the correct spelling of Rheims gives a little more credability to the argument)
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, Jul 1, 2010
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    So that's why I was saved reading the Rheims NT!

    HankD
     
    #11 HankD, Jul 3, 2010
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
    #12 Jerome, Sep 12, 2016
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Huh? Here's a Taverner's with "espowsed"
    [​IMG]

    Huh? Here's a Geneva with "torments"
    [​IMG]

    Huh? Here's a Tyndale with "leye hys heed"
    [​IMG]
     
    #13 Jerome, Sep 12, 2016
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I can't believe you resurrected a 6 year old thread! LOL!
     
    #14 TCassidy, Sep 12, 2016
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have been known to awaken the dead as well a time or two. ;-)
     
    #15 Rippon, Sep 12, 2016
  16. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    That was when you had folks stand for the benediction.
     
    #16 Squire Robertsson, Sep 12, 2016
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    No wonder I couldn't remember it.

    HankD
     
    #17 HankD, Sep 12, 2016
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK but look at how they spelled Jesus - IESVS.
     
    #18 HankD, Sep 12, 2016
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  19. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Common spelling of the time. (J and U weren't fully recognized as completely separate from I and V until much later. See The life and doctrine of ovr Savior Iesvs Christ by contemporary theologian Henry More.)
     
    #19 rsr, Sep 13, 2016
  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    In the handwriting of the time, I and J were all but identical. That's why in the pre-typewriter US Army there was a I Company\Troop but no J.
     
    #20 Squire Robertsson, Sep 13, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
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