The basis of God's choice

A strange statement for a Christian to make since Scripture says of "the church".

Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed "the church" of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Ephesians 5:25-27
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved "the church", and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27. That he might present it to himself a "glorious church", not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

First it is not a strange statement if you understand ecclesiology properly.
Secondly, it is another topic, which if you want to discuss you need to start another thread, and avoid derailing this one.

 

Be my guest

This was the real point of my question.
It answers both mine and Toms question. What I did was basically took Toms statement/question and reversed it.

It is something 'you' and many others do not claim but there are many on here who DO clain just that.

These seek any and every way possible to keep man as far away and out of the salvation process as they can. Example:

Emphasis mine on those aspects that scripture states pertains specifically to and of us in which we are apart of salvation.
Here are their own answers to the 'assignment' posed, in which you will find them trying to keeps man from having any part in the process of salvation.
Example #1

Example #2

My contention in that thread currently running, was over removing me/I from salvation testimony:

To say that man has no part in his salvation is biblically incorrect, for those who state it such. It is also incorrect to assume that salvation is not dependant upon man's decision. Even Calvinists and the Reformed groups state God will not save a person who does not willing believe first. Ergo salation is in fact dependant upon man's decision unless God saves men apart from excersizing their faith.

Agreed, this is the historical position but many today (and even on here) go to great lenths at times to try to explain away or even try to remove man from the salvation process.

Niether do the non-cals nor the Arminians.

There is no question on this point, but then again this is not what the discussion is about. It is about - does man have an active role in his salvation? The answer is yes. Regardless of whether one holds to the reformed position or not, man does in fact have an active role to play in whether or not he will be saved.

Ok, now you threw me here. Are you saying that you believe (or think) that us praying for another is part of why God elected someone?

It is from the historical view point, however my point was directed toward those who claim man has no part in his salvation.

 

No, that is not the premise in any fashion. While God will do as He pleases, it has pleased Him to do somethings in a certain way. Yet can not just do whatever because He is bound by His nature, His character, His word, and His plan that is already set forth. Thus he can not just do whatever.

These passages are about God choosing a people for His purposes and it is not specifically nor alluding primarily to salavation itself.
If it were then verse 20-21 would mean that the sinnful man is sinful because God made him that way and therefore the sinful man can not cry out against God asking why did you make me like this (sinful).

 

No. I should have been more clear.

I believe God, in His election, has also ordained our prayer that Person X would be saved have the desired effect--Person X does get saved.

Is it a sincere prayer? Absolutely. Is it a means ordained by God? Absolutely. Is it similar to the requirement that a person, through written or verbal communication (or sign-language, you get the picture), share the gospel? Yes. A "preacher" is necessary for them to hear. Now, I don't know that I'd say a "prayer" is necessary in an absolute sense.

However, I do think that God ordains that I pray for Person X--that God would give him eyes to see and ears to hear. God also ordains that I share the gospel with Person X and I call on him to make a decision--to repent and believe.

Now am I the initiator of any of this? No. Am I a participant? Yes.

But, this is not to say that even though Person X repented and believed Person Y will. That is up to God alone. But, it is necessary for me to keep praying for and sharing with Person Y.

I hope that makes more sense. I don't mean to muddy the waters, but this is quite deep and I'm not sure if I've explained it as well as possible.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Well, in one sense you are absolutely correct--God does, and must, act in accordance with His character.

For example: God must punish sin because all sin is ultimately against Him. Every sin is punished either in Christ as He suffered on the cross or in an eternity in hell (now, I'm not meaning to get into a Limited Atonement discussion here, I'm saying that because of who God is He must punish sin).

But, where I would disagree is if one thinks that man has any kind of "right" over and against God.

One of my main disagreements with a typically Arminian position is this: Many people seem to think that man "deserves" Grace in some way or that man "deserves" the opportunity to accept Grace. Man doesn't deserve anything from God, except for a violent death and an unbearable eternity in hell.

Not necessarily. Paul is using the history of Israel as an example of sorts. It is written in personal, not corporate, language. So, Paul is applying the history of Israel (both in a corporate and a personal sense) to his readers. But, the point Paul is making is about personal thing (personal salvation, etc.), not a mere corporate idea.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Someone explain to me how belief is a choice.

I keep hearing terms such as "accept," "choose," "put your trust," and "ask Jesus" as synonyms for believing as saving faith.

If you hear something, you will either believe it or not. It will either make sense or not. It will either click or it will not.

If your little brother told you that he saw a flying saucer land in the back yard, you will either believe it or not. Most likely you will not. You can pretend to believe to make your little brother happy. Can you "choose" to believe something like this the same way that you choose to go to the store?

Cay you say to your self "I do not believe this at this point, but I do have a choice. I will now choose to believe this even though it makes no sense to me. At this moment, I will make a choice that will change my faith. I now at this moment CHOOSE to believe this. Wow, now I believe this. Now it is ingrained in my mind, heart, and soul. I really sincerely believe this simply because I CHOSE to believe it when I could have NOT CHOSEN thus making it so that I would NOT believe from that moment"?

The mind does NOT work like that. Your believe can NOT be dictated by some kind of whimzical free choice. That makes NO SENSE AT ALL. All choices are made based on what you believe the moment you make a choice.

Why do we keep trying to tweak belief in the Gospel into some kind of a free choice when the mind does not work that way? Our logic and reasoning combined with what we hear will dictate what we believe and it just happens. We cannot choose to believe something that we do not believe. Either we will believe or we will not believe. Period.

 

We are commanded to believe, not make some kind of lavisly-created term-a-riffic choice that magically changes our faith pattern.

 

Belief is a choice.. period. The is no other option in understanding this.

You choose to believe what you wish. Romans 1 states that man 'knowing God' choose not to glorify Him but chose to trade the truth for a lie. They also knowing of sin and the judgment to come choose their view over that which scripture says they knew was truth. You can find this all over the placein scripture as well as in life. Example found in life- a mother sitting in a court room where her son is convicted of murder based upon the evidence but she still chooses not to believe it. Her son is not a murderer. You can say it is denial but the fact is she choose to believe in spite of the truth. You see it in science, in life, in theology, ect..

Belief is not and has never been described (in scripture at least) to be something that we just suddenly have and then acknowledge that we have. Belief is and always has been a choice otherwise scripture would not have God and His men stating things like : Choose this day, if you hear His voice harden not your heart, I beseach you.. be ye reconsiled, having received Christ, ect... All of which (and multitudes more) convey over and over again the choice which we are offered to believe, to receive, to not harden..
Even Jesus states 'if you can believe, all things are possible'. Or another statement of Jesus "Did I not say that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"

Belief is an action that the individual chooses to have/maintian it is NOT something that just 'happens' to them.

It appears you don't understand what belief is nor just how much scripture contradicts what you gave. It is true that either we believe or we do not, but that belief is something we choose to have or to cast away for something else.

Another point of interest:
What logic and reasoning is there in believing in/on a man who presumably lived without sin 2000 years ago and who was crusified and buried for his rebellious religious beliefs. And that this death is supposed to somehow pay the sin debt of all my sin so I can have access to God and enter Heaven. And that this same man who was dead for three days also rose again and is still alive 2000 years later somewhere outside the sphere of earth.

Exactly what logic and reasoning is there in believing this is even remotely true??

 

Yes, commanded 'to believe', which of itself means 'you must believe instead of continuing in unbelief'. Even you illistrate the very nature of the choice that is involved. However the last half is incorrect. Choosing to believe does not magically change anything, God said that He changes us and keeps us.

 

Ok, THAT makes more sense :wavey: And.. I even agree with you

 

Ok, I understand 'that' argument but neither I nor anyone that I can think of on this thread has made such a statement.

Brother No One in the Arminian position thinks this. If anything they are more ardent about man NOT deserving grace as the Calvinist is.

As I said, I disagree it has anything to do with salvation but I also disagree that it is 'personal' since all the illistrations are corporate, using a person as representive for the people groups being spoken of.. Jacob and Esau (2 nations in her womb - Israel and Edom), Moses and Pharaoh (Isreal and Egypt).

If you look at what is said to or of whom and go back to the OT and examine those passage quoted, you will find that it is speaking of the people of that nation and individuals Paul is speaking of are representive of those people groups in question. You see Paul use this same imagry with Sarah and the bondwoman speaking of the child of each representing a specific people group.

However, on that we can agree to disagree.

 

There are reasons as to why I would believe my little brother's account or not. If my brother was known to make up tall tales, I probably would not believe him. Or if the object described could be explained as being a terrestrial object or optical illusion I would probably not believe him.

However, if my brother was known to be of very honest character, and had a detailed photograph of the object sitting on the lawn, now I would believe him.

So what you believe is a choice determined by evidence and reason.

And we don't just believe as you say. A man can be persuaded what to believe and often is. If you have ever participated in a trial you know the prosecution will use arguments to persuade you the defendent is guilty, while the defence will use arguments to persuade you to believe the defendent is innocent.

People can change their beliefs and often do. You may be a member of the jury and completely convinced by the prosecution that the defendent is guilty, until the defense shows evidence that the defendent was 500 miles from the scene of the crime with multiple witness that he could not have commited the crime. You may have been convinced by a brilliant presentation from the prosecution, but now you change your belief when this new evidence is introduced. This sort of thing happens every day.

 

Question for Jeep Dragon

Think for a moment: Is there just one and only one for example and discussion purposes a time when you believe that you made a free choice regardless of the content of that choice if it exist in your thinking?

Simply put: Have you just once made a free choice to do this but could have done that?

Regards
Benefactor

 

Amy.G, as most arguments go, they touch on everything except what someone wants answered.

Allow me to give my non-Calvinist, PB answer.

Titus 3:5.

"Not by works of righteousnesses which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us".

Mercy is the reason He saves whom He saves, and since it is the soul He chose in Christ from eternity past that He saves and that soul alone, then the basis for His choosing is His mercy.

 

Allan,

I understand what you are saying and I don't think you think this. However, some statements by some people I know and some people on this board--if you look at their statements--while they'd never state so openly they do think that there is a bit of "deserve" to it. Not, however, in salvation itself, but in the opportunity.

Many Calvinists have been rightly accused of Hyper-Calvinism. The accusation goes something like this: If God has chosen, why do missions." I certainly don't agree with this statement. Many Calvinists don't, but some do. Similarly, some Arminian types have argued such things as a post-mortem opportunity for salvation and the necessity for an opportunity to choose (such as the proverbial guy on the desert island who has never heard).

Again, I don't think I've heard these things from you, but you are a deep theological thinker from what I can gather, and many others are not necessarily so.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

I don't know if deserve is the right word, but Acts 17:25-26 states man is placed in the appropriate place in time and location to seek Him.

 

Actually, the scriptures warn believers not to be highminded or proud.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

So, this argues that man does indeed play a role in his salvation, but we are never to think ourselves better or superior to others because we believe.

And this is how I think of my own salvation. I was saved when a neighbor who had been a missionary took me to church when I was 10 or 11 years old. That day the pastor preached on hell, and honestly, it scared me to death. At the invitation I went down and they showed me from scripture how that Jesus died for my sins and asked if I wanted to receive him as my saviour. I sincerely did, and prayed and asked Jesus to forgive all my sins and come into my heart. And I have never been the same since.

Now, I have never thought myself better than anyone because of this. I have felt very fortunate and grateful that God sent that neighbor to bring me to church that day. I am grateful and thankful that his word convicted me, and still does. God came after me that day, I did not go after him.

If anything, I think myself worse than others. Unsaved people often sin in ignorance, but I have known God's will since I was a youth. I have sinned many times since that day many years ago, often knowingly and willingly. So, the unsaved have some excuse, I do not. So I certainly do not feel myself superior to anyone.

As for those on a desert island, I think God holds man accountable only for what is revealed to him. And here is scripture that supports that.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

The Lord holds us accountable for what we know. The man who knows God's will and disobeys will be beaten with many stripes, the man who does not know, but commits sin will be beaten with few stripes.

The scriptures say all men are without excuse, because the creation itself reveals to all men that there is a God.

I believe that God reveals himself to all men who truly seek him. But that man is only held accountable for what he knows.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't witness. When you witness to someone, you may indeed be answering their prayers who have sought God for many years.
Cornelius is an example from scripure. He prayed to know the truth and God answered his prayers and sent Peter to witness to him.

Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

So, I believe if a man in his heart truly seeks God, God will send someone to tell that person the gospel.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Here again is scripture that contradicts Hyper-Calvinism as you call it, it says God rewards those who diligently seek him. Maybe they would want to cut this verse out of scripture?

 

That Scripture only shows that those who have been Regenerated by the Holy Spirit and Given the Gift of Faith will diligently seek GOD. A wonderful passage of Scripture that meshes perfectly with the Sovereign Grace of GOD in the Salvation of HIS Chosen Ones.