Must a gift be effectually given for the giver to receive the credit?

we should give God glory for life, food, clothing, house, good looks (at least I thank him for that ), every hair on our head (at least some), His power, glory, etc, along with the sovereign scope over our lives in that He let us fall to a certain degree (according to His good plan), aided us with Gospel, taught us the Gospel, changed our heart through the Gospel, gave us our measure of faith, gifts, love, and everything about us. So I dont think there is anything good that I have that didnt generate first from God and His plan, so He should receive all the glory.

I think the point is that if we take any credit for anything at all without God blessing us first then we can say that we did something good without God's help. This would be receiving glory and God not getting it. I personally feel better about giving God every ounce of glory since He in some way is sovereign over all things from greatest to least.

I'm not pointing any fingers or saying that this is all we can know about giving God glory, but this is a couple of short statements on where Im at with it.

you?

 

How is obeying God's command to come to Christ a bad thing? We are doing exactly what God commanded us to do.

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I wrote this as a sarcasm once, but from the Calvinist mindset it is true.

Jesus- Come unto me.

Sinner- Here I am Lord, please forgive me of my sins and give me everlasting life.

Jesus- I can't.

Sinner- Why?

Jesus- You came to me.

Sinner- But you said "come unto me".

Jesus- Nevertheless, you came to me and now you will take credit for saving yourself.

Sinner- But I did exactly what you commanded me to do.

Jesus- Doesn't matter, you came to me and now you will take credit for saving yourself.

Sinner- Lord, I won't take credit, I know only you have the power to save a man, I cannot save myself and I know that.

Jesus- Sorry.


This is how silly Calvinism is. It teaches that obeying Christ and doing exactly what he commanded all men to do is evil. It steals God's sovereignty. This is completely absurd.

 

I disagree, and I think Scripture does as well...

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

They desire salvation...but they desire it doing it their way (works). The desire to live forever has been placed in all men (Ecc. 3:11). The fact He has given us a conscience, revealed Himself through creation and put each person who ever lived in the exact perfect location and place in time to seek Him (Acts 17:26) is testimony enough He has placed the desire to be saved in each person.

 

Yes, but according to you a man can only desire to be saved if God regenerates him to have this desire.

Doesn't that make God completely responsible for the deaths of billions of people? Couldn't God easily regenerate all men to have this desire?

It makes God demand what is utterly unreasonable from a man. God commands men to come to him knowing it is absolutely impossible because he has willed it so.

God tells men he loves all men when he has already decided he is going to throw most of them in the lake of fire for eternity.

God uses misleading language like "whosoever will may take the water of life freely" and "not willing that any should perish", when God does not mean that at all. He means only a few elect. Oh, God could have said a few elect, then there would be no confusion, but chose to use misleading language instead.

I find it amazing any thinking person can conceive of God like this.

 

Yea you always give into your greatest desire even if your mind tricks you. You may think and say your greatest desire is to serve God and not go committ murder, but if you commit murder and choose that over God your actions spoke for your words. Now for the rich young ruler may have appeared to want Christ for the gain that he might have received, but when Christ told him to sell all of his things and follow him it revealed the greatest object of his affection was... not Christ.. If our greatest desire is to honor the Lord, then our actions ought to scream over our words.

 

Agreed. If their desires would have truly been from the heart (mind, will, and emotions) then they would have came to Christ for mercy. People come all the time to church to want to be saved or because they need help, but this doesn't always indicate a true hate for sin, fear of the Lord, and desire for God's will above all things including their own family. I really believe they need the Spirit for that kind of repentance.

 

As I have stated, they deceived themselves and their faith was vain. This is a scary thought and Paul had it for 20 years after conversion. Doing good works does not in any way indicate a true heart for God and a true love. Not even close. I dont know of anyone who doesn't desire to be saved. The problem is that people dont have a changed heart and saving faith because the reason they want to be saved is for the benefits. They want to be saved and not serve God, when true repentance is seeing sin, hating it, denying self and desiring to fall on Jesus feet for forgiveness and not only that but for love, fear, honor, and many spiritual reasons. I am not saying you must do this or do that to be saved, but I am saying the fruit of a true godly heart will result in repentance, faith, and Lordship. They missed the mark, and there will be many who will as well. This is a fearful thing and is sad. You are not letting the deceit and wickedness of man's heart play in affect with the hearts desires, which I would say is an error. Whether we are speaking or regeneration or some kind of miraculous work of the Spirit, I am certain for someone to have true saving faith that has right motives, they need something that in and of themselves they cannot produce.

 

In Arthur Pink's Sovereignty of God, tucked at the end of the paragraph containing the following

is a relevant footnote:

:laugh:

 

Men were created to want to live forever. They know there is more to life, and that physical death is not normal. This is a truth instilled in man from God...so it is a real desire for salvation. Now, man apart from God intervening in man first would never desire it, but it is so painfully clear through the whole of Scripture God has given men everything they need to come to him. They truly desire salvation...they just fall for the same deception Adam and Eve fell for...that they can do it and be like God apart from obeying Him. This is the reason there are so many "gods" and false religions out there...man is looking for the answers, but they want a god they can fashion in their image like the Israelites did.

 

-I have no doubt that men want to live forever, because that is a benefit.
-I would agree that men have a sense of God
-They do desire to be saved, but they highly rebel against the way of salvation because that is totally against their autonomous nature (generally speaking) to desire God's ways and Christ which is salvation.
-The issue doesn't lie with a true desire for salvation, but a true desire for God who is salvation. You can't enter another way. as you stated man is idolatrous at heart and just can't keep the first command rightly to save his life.

 

Amen! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: