Relationship of Jn 6:44-45 with 6:64-66

I don't think many would debate that point Dr. Walter.

What is His criteria for those choosen to receive this ability might be the more focused question?

Surley God doesn't choose willy-nilly as if by the toss of a coin but...

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:​

The foundational premise: we are totally powerless to save ourselves.
It would also seem that this choice is a metaphysical thing, outside of time, from the foundation of the world.

But we are not told the details of that counsel apart from how it is worked out in the time continuum.

John 1

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

It would seem that it would have something to do with each of us individually else He would choose all.
Obviously the choice is not based upon any goodness of our own.

Without any bias towards the Institutes, What are the possible choices?

Tempered by the foundational premise, what might the details of that choice be assuming we are capable of understanding the transaction of election.

His choice has to do entirely with Him and within Him and nothing to do with what He sees in us individually.

His choice depends upon a mutually shared transaction (a covenant between He and I).

His choice has to do entirely with something He sees within us individually (assuming the foundational premise).

Something else - e.g. We can't possibly understand it.

HankD

 

OK, well you already answered it - belief.
My assumption is, if possible, you may have wanted to go further into speculative theology as this is a debate forum.

HankD

 

OK then my quasi-challenge stands:

Since we are not given the details of the architecture of predestination, many would disagree with "Unconditional Election".

The condition being "after the counsel of His own will".

Which, according to the various theologies here at the BB, may or may not be in line with your statement because the criteria of choice is not given.

Generally speaking, the subscriber of the teaching of Arminius would say that God saw that the individual would believe if given the ability to believe. That is, he has the "want to" but not the ability or wherewithal.

Generally speaking, the subscriber of Calvin would say that we have neither the will or the ability and we must be infused with both.

Personally, I don't subscribe to either of these men in totum.

However, if backed into a corner with a gun to my head I would probably be more inclined to number 2.

I have often suspected that its something more and/or different than number 2 and that it is beyond my cognitive abilities.

I do like to ask cavinists to take a guess at the criteria that the Father uses (or used) to make His choice in the realm of election/predestination.

Obviously the motive is love. For God so loved the world...

HankD

 

Even if the choice is not conditioned upon forseen circumstances (foreknowledge) but caused by God (which is my inclination), this still does not reveal the criteria used by our Father for the choice apart from the Scripture concerning the counsel of His own will.

counsel: Strongs 1012 counsel, purpose.

Whatever suits His purpose is as close to a criteria as we can come I suppose. Yes even those who are left to their own devices suit His pupose (after all He could have saved everyone):

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

I still don't dismiss foreknowledge completely as applicable to God as the Scripture confirms it's actuality.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:​

A passage which arminians could/would point to as confirming the fact of the foreknowledge of God, though unrelated to "drawing" would prove that it is at least possible.

Apart from that and as an aside, I admit a difficulty in my own reasoning power as to how the "foreknowledge" (prognosis) of this passage in Acts is integrated into the concept of the absolute sovereignty of God.

Even if prognosis is defined as pre-arrangement the nuance of "pre-arrangement" hints at the idea that circumstances were altered or manipulated by God to fit His purpose.

But I take comfort in this passage:

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.​

But as to the O/P, though I generally agree with your thoughts, I would rather simply say that they would not believe rather than they could not believe.

HankD

 

You have used an absolute truth statement's converse as absolute truth...which is not necessarily true.

Your argument: all those that come to Christ are drawn (given) by the Father (absolute truth)
Your conclusion: those that do not come to Christ were not drawn (given) by the Father (the converse...not absolute truth)

This is similar to me giving you the absolute truth statement "everyone who attends my church loves chicken", and you coming to the conclusion that if someone does not attend my church they do not like chicken. The logic and truth of the statement is not guaranteed.

 

Neither of those arguments can be supported by the text, you have to approach it with that presupposition. The use of Moses lifting up the pole with the serpent does not support that conclusion either.

At any rate, I believe it is a matter of semantics, and the inverse of an absolute statement is not necessarily true as well. I do not see much if any difference in what I thought your argument was and what you state it is. If they are not drawn, they won't come...and if they do not come, they were not drawn is the same thing.

 

A better analogy and a better way of putting it would be a Kentucky Fried Chicken stand.

Only those who were predisposed to liking chicken would be drawn to the KFC place, the others would pass on by and go to Arby's.

HankD

 

This is where you make your error. Jesus is clearly speaking of God's word in chapter 6.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Here Jesus says no man can come to him unless the Father draws him. But then he explains how this drawing is accomplished. It is accomplished through the word of God. Those who hear, are taught, and believe God's revelation to man, the scriptures, will come to Jesus.

Jesus says this again in verse 63.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

A person is not regenerated to have faith, and that can easily be demonstrated from the scriptures.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Calvinism teaches regeneration or life precedes faith, but John 5:40 proves otherwise. A person must first believe and come to Jesus to have life. And no man comes unless he was drawn and taught by the scriptures.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

These are written. What is written? The scriptures, the word of God, God's revelation to man. This verse shows you must hear and believe God's word to have life. So, faith must precede regeneration.

This is shown so many times in scripture, but Calvinists conveniently overlook it.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Does Jesus say the living (regenerate) shall hear the voice of the Son of God? No. He says the dead, the unregenerate shall hear his voice (the scriptures), and those that hear shall live. This means those who sincerely listen to, take heed, and believe his words.

Quit listening to the teachings of men, and listen to the scriptures.

 

not unless it has a verse that says no one can come unless drawn, that would see to indicate that his presumption is true.

 

agreed, that is how God draws his elect to Him, through the Word of God.


the rest of your quote has another thread it can be discussed in. Regeneration before faith. http://baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=65844

 

Give me a break, you are in total denial here. How did you learn the gospel? Were you walking around totally ignorant of the gospel and were suddenly regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have this knowledge?

I don't know about you, but I learned the gospel by hearing it preached from the scriptures and reading it for myself in the Bible.

If God had not revealed himself through the centuries by prophets, not one person on earth today would know about Jesus. And if you do not know about Jesus it is impossible to trust him as your Saviour.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul mention being regenerated by the Holy Spirit here? No, not one word to that effect. How careless and negligent he must have been if your doctrine is true.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Does Paul say here you have to be regenerated to believe? No. He says you must hear the word of God. And this is in perfect agreement with what Jesus said in John 6.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does Jesus say here a man must be regenerated to come to him? No. He says you must hear, and learn of the Father. Well, how does a man hear and learn from the Father? The scriptures of course.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Did Paul say Timothy was regenerated to have faith in Jesus here? No, he said Timothy knew the scriptures from a child and was made "wise" unto salvation. Again, this is in perfect agreement with Jesus's statement in John 6:45.

You guys just don't get it, the scriptures are God's method to speak to man. Faith comes from knowledge given by the Father through the scriptures. You want it to be some magical, mysterious process, this is nothing but pure mysticism taught by the Catholic church from whence Calvinism came.