Strivings about the Law

Paul said -



1 Cor 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but [b]what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law"[/b] Rom 3:31 NASB

Heb 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
…
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD[/b], AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.





Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Now before we look at what John said on the same subject - it is helpful to remember that "some" might say that even to quote Paul on this subject is to "strive about the Law" as if some portion of Paul's writings are not "permitted".

Surely no one here would do that - but "someone" -- maybe just "someone in your pew" as that TV evangelist says.

in Christ,

Bob

 

>Since Paul never argued that one should be observing the law for salvation or for the evidence of salvation, then Paul must have been speaking of those who were arguing that the keeping of the law is a must for salvation or a must as the evidence of salvation.

Since Paul never specifies which law he is referring to it is impossible to know what he is talking about. The Noahic Law obligated all humans. The Mosaic Law obligated all Jews. The NT Law obligates all Christians.

On the other hand, then either the mere asking Jesus to save a person obligates God to regenerate them and thus most Catholics and Mormons are regenerate and their salvation must be taken at face value OR "asking Jesus" does not obligate God to regenerate the person and we must come up with an alternative means of OKing a person to join us in communion. I can't think of a 3rd alternative.

 

As even DHK admits - 1John 3:4 says that transgression of God's Law is what sin - is.

As Paul states just one chapter away from Romans 6 (That would be Romans 7) the Law is the place where we find the Ten Commandments -

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.


As Paul states in 2Cor 3 the Law is "written on tablets of stone".

As Paul says in Eph 6:1-4 the 5th commandment is the first commandment in that unit of TEN - with a promise - and God's Commandments as we see in 1Cor 7:19 are still binding.

in Christ,

Bob

 

D.L Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments is in perfect keeping with what Paul wrote --

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
By DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html


Exodus 20:2-17

BINDING TODAY

Some people seem to think we have got beyond the commandments. What did Christ say?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
The commandments of God given to Moses in the Mount at Horeb are as binding today as ever they have been since the time they were proclaimed in the hearing of the people. The Jews said the law was not given in Palestine (which belonged to Israel), but in the wilderness, because the law was for all nations.

Jesus never condemned the law and the prophets, but He did condemn those who did not obey them. Because He gave new commandments, it does not follow that He abolished the old. Christ's explanation of them made them all the more searching. In His Sermon on the Mount, He carried the principles of the commandments beyond the mere letter. He unfolded them and showed that they embraced more, that they are positive as well as prohibitive. The Old Testament closes with these words:
"Remember ye the Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the Statutes and Judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the Earth with a curse." (Malachi 4:4-6)
Does that look as if the law of Moses was becoming obsolete?

The conviction deepens in me with the years that the old truths of the Bible must be stated and restated in the plainest possible language. I do not remember ever to have heard a sermon preached on the commandments. I have an index of two thousand five hundred sermons preached by Spurgeon, and not one of them selects its text from the first seventeen verses of Exodus 20. The people must be made to understand that the Ten Commandments are still binding, and that there is a penalty attached to their violation. We do not want a gospel of mere sentiment. The Sermon on the Mount did not blot out the Ten Commandments.

====

 

What D.L. Moody says is of no consequence.

 

Paul is not arguing against Christ's Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" (speak of GOOD trees)

Paul is not arguing against his own statement in Rom 2:6-7 regarding the need to "persevere in doing good"


Paul is not arguing against his own statement in Romans 6 that those who claim to be enslaved to sin are not servants of God.

He is talking about the Act 15 problem "instead".

Thus Paul can make strong affirmations about the Law of God - as we saw here -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1554197&postcount=2

in Christ,

Bob

 

No, he isn't Bob.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

The Jerusalem Council, in Acts 15, took place in 45 A.D. All the disputes that were brought up at that time were settled. There was nothing more to "strive about."
Now Paul is writing 20 years later to Titus in 65 A.D. He is not referring to those matters which were settled twenty years previously. We know that for sure. James gave an answer. It was settled. The answer was given to Paul and Barnabas to spread to the churches. Again, the matters in Acts 15 were resolved. 20 years later there was nothing to "strive about," that was discussed at that meeting. On this point you are wrong.
Please go back to the drawing board, and reconsider Steaver's question.

 

True - he is firmly in favor of the Lev 19:18 command to love your neighbor - and so also is James as we see in James 2 - as also does Christ affirm this in Matt 22 - pre-cross (even the Jews agree).

Well -- then that is where you have a problem.

It takes a lot of myth and fiction to imagine that they did not have the Acts 15 problem to deal with in the gentile-Jew Christian churches after Acts 15 - since the whole point of Acts 15 meeting was to GO and tell everyone what was decided.

Notice that the first thing Paul does after the Acts 15 council - is require that Timothy be circumcised.

That should be a bit of a 'hint'.

In the mean time we have that link mentioned above - were we see what Paul "really says" about the Law of God.

================

Paul said -



1 Cor 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but [b]what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law"[/b] Rom 3:31 NASB

Heb 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
…
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD[/b], AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.





Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



in Christ,

Bob

 

It is instructive that in Gal 5 Paul is still dealing with the Acts 15 issue and in Acts 22 Paul actually gets arrested over his efforts to clarify the Acts 15 issue.

Where then this fiction that the Acts 15 issue does not come up again in the NT?

Why go to such extremes?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Paul is dealing with the Acts 15 problem. In Acts 15 the issue is a few Christian (Jewish Christians other than Paul and the disciples etc) were claiming that gentile Christians would need to become Jews through circumcision as well as accepting the Bible as the Word of God, accepting the Gospel of the Kingdom and worshipping the One True God of creation.

I simply point out a list of texts regarding his strong affirmation of God's Law and the fact that "Keeping the Commandments of God is what matters" to Paul 1Cor 7:19.

Paul's view of the topic was not as myopic as some would like to imagine.

He condemns the Acts 15 problem while at the same time upholding and affirming the Law of God.

It is another "BOTH AND" solution for Paul.

Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31 NASB

in Christ,

Bob

 

After 45 A.D. Paul never had to deal with the Acts 15 problem, per se. It had already been settled. For example, when he came to the churches in Galatia who had been influences he rebuked them for having been influenced by these same Judaizers, and he rebuked the Judaizers. He said that anyone that would bring to them another gospel (such as the Judiazers') is accursed. Strong words! Paul wasn't "dealing" with them. He had not disputes to settle. He had to set them straight doctrinally because these false teachers had led them astray.

And that matter was settled. After the Apostles came together, James came and declared his decision. He was the pastor of the church in Jerusalem.

You simply take Scripture out of context.
1Cor.7:19 speaks specifically about marriage. Maybe the "commandments of God" refers to getting a marriage license. But it is not the law of God that you are referring to. You take it out of context to fit your own preconceived ideas. It ain't there Bob.

Your view is that the same phrase or word means the same thing everywhere in the Bible regardless of context. That is the wrong way to interpret things Bob. Only the context can give the true interpretation of a word or phrase. And that is where you go wrong.

Again, the law that you are referring to is not the law that is referred to in Acts 15. You have a one-track mind.

Hardly.

The law had been established as our school teacher to bring us to Christ.
It was never established as a part of our salvation.

 

So I gave two parts to that equation.

The "applies to all Christians part" was stated as

1. as well as accepting the Bible as the Word of God, accepting the Gospel of the Kingdom and worshipping the One True God of creation.

The "special feature being demanded by some Jewish Christians" in Acts 15 was stated as
2. gentile Christians would need to become Jews through circumcision

Surely - there is no simpler way to state this -

Step 1 - identify something that is clearly false.

Step 2. - show the evidence that would support your wild charge.


This is really not that complicated.

Wonderful repeat of the part that would apply to all Christians.

But it is Christian Jews in the case of Acts 15 that are arguing that gentile Christians need to become Jews to be saved.

So far your "that is false" is floundering.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of works, lest any man shall boast.

Salvation is by grace through faith.
Salvation is in Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone.
The object of our faith is Christ and Him alone.

Having laid that foundation, which was settled in Acts 15, we conclude that:
As a believer is not required to be circumcised, neither is he required to keep the Sabbath. There is no command for him to keep either one. In fact both are signs of different covenants. Paul says concerning circumcision:
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
--The value of the ceremonial law today is "nothing."
The value of circumcision today is nothing.
The value of the Sabbath today is nothing.