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OT and loss of Salvation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by menageriekeeper, Nov 30, 2010.

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  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    In the middle of a discussion on in a different thread discussing something different entirely, Freeatlast made this comment:

    Oh, and the context was negative.

    So let's discuss this.

    I was taught as a child that the yearly sacrifice made by the High Priest "rolled" the sins of the Jewish people over until the next year, and that sacrifice rolled the combined sins over and so on until Christ died and His blood made the final sacrifice. Therefore if an individual failed to make his yearly sacrifice (or contribute to it?) or failed to believe that the sacrifice was sufficient, then his salvation was in question. I do not remember being given any scriptural support for this position (my parent often insisted we take their word for such stuff).

    What are the flaws of this view?

    Where did this view get its start?

    What scriptural support do we have that points toward the idea that OT saints were as secure in their salvation as we are?

    What scriptural support is there that shows their salvation was dependent on obedience to the Law with sacrifice being the culmination of that obedience?

    Are these questions sufficient to begin the discussion or should I come up with a few more? :D
     
    #1 menageriekeeper, Nov 30, 2010
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Since the OT saints did not become lost because the law was given, and were not saved by keeping that law, (Romans 3:20) for it had no provision for salvation, and the blood of bulls and goats did not take away sin ( Hebrews 10:4), then one would need to look someplace else to get understanding how they were saved.

    We find that in Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    So they were saved by faith as in every dispensation from Adam to now. Now the question as to why they could not lose their salvation? There has only been one law given by which men become lost (separated from God). That law was given in Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Because of Adams deed of eating of that tree and becoming dead in sin (he died, he became a walking dead man) and all men being his off spring we are now all conceived separated from God (born in sin Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

    We are all born separated form God at birth, actually at conception. Once a person is saved there is no longer a law to cause them to be lost. No law since Adam has been given that causes a person to be lost. There is no longer a tree to eat from. Nothing in the commandments can cause one to be lost or saved. The law was not given to cause men to be lost or to save men, but rather to push sinners (everyone) to the One who could save (Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.)

    Men were saved by faith before the law (example Abraham) under the law ( every person who lived by faith Hab 2:4) and now after the law all by faith (Eph 2:8,9). And since there has not been a law given since the law to Adam like the tree of knowledge of good and evil that causes men to be seperated from God there is no way to lose salvation in any dispensation since Adam once a person is saved.
     
    #2 freeatlast, Nov 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2010
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    People were/are/will be saved by God's grace alone. Inward, invisible working of the holy Spirit, regenerating the soul.

    THEN they demonstrate outwardly this inward change - repentance, faith, and obedience to the revealed Word of God.

    In the pre-cross era, God gave His grace. Men repented, believed and obeyed the Word (the Torah) which included the matrix of the Jewish sacrificial system. If they did NOT repent/believe/obey, it indicated they were not truly born again.

    In the post-cross era, God still gives His grace. Men repent, believe and obey the Word (a New Testament) that includes a transformed life and walk with God. They they do NOT repent/believe/obey, it indicates that they are not truly born again.

    One big difference - in the pre-cross era, the holy Spirit came/went on individuals for service or ministry in temporary indwelling. Great fear of men like King David was to have God withdraw the holy Spirit from him. Not "lose" salvation, but lose the powerful gift of the Spirit.

    Today, Jesus' gift to His bride was the unbelievable Permanent indwelling of the hoy Spirit!! Wow. We have a much greated ability with the Spirit's presence to obey the Word and walk with God.
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, Nov 30, 2010
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The sin offering was only for those sins committed unintentionally. (Lev.4:2). There were no sacrifices for intentional sins.

    Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #4 canadyjd, Nov 30, 2010
  5. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    Salvation has always and will always be by grace through faith in the atoneing work of the Lord Jesus Christ

    Romans 10:9 says, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

    In the OT---the saints believed looking forward to coming Messiah---although His work had not been completed on the cross---by faith the belivers were saying----"His atoneing work is as good as done"---even though the atoneing work hadn't even begun

    In the NT---the saints believe looking back to the completed work
     
    #5 blackbird, Nov 30, 2010
  6. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Okay, I have to agree.

    So where/how did this other theory get it's start?

    This is one of the few things I can remember my mother teaching me, though my father certainly agreed. Both came from Baptist backgrounds (Freewill for my mother, Missionary for my dad) though this is certainly not the first of their beliefs I've discarded in the face of scripture.
     
    #6 menageriekeeper, Dec 1, 2010
  7. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Oh, I have another question:

    Was the salvation of the OT saints, from their point of view, as sure as our own NT salvation is? Or did they they believe in a mix of faith + works for their assurance?
     
    #7 menageriekeeper, Dec 1, 2010
  8. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Difficult to say. I never met one of them.:tongue3: However there are a few statement of absolute assurance from some in scripture. Job is one and David another and there are others.
     
    #8 freeatlast, Dec 1, 2010
  9. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hello everyone

    First of all, the Jewish sacrifices in the Old Testament, had nothing to do with their salvation:
    Their sacrifices were for their sanctification.

    As for the eternal security of Old Testament Saints........
    Psalms 89:28-37
    V.28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
    V.29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
    V.30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
    V.31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
    V.32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
    V.33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
    V.34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. V.35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
    V.36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
    V.37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
    --------------------------------------------------
    They were as secure as we are, for the same reason.
     
    #9 stilllearning, Dec 1, 2010
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