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Sovereignty of God in the Conversion of Saul

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jan 23, 2011.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Been preaching through the book of Acts. We've come to Saul's conversion this morning.

    Were there ever a heart too hard for God to break or a spirit too stubborn for Christ to overcome it resided in Saul.

    He mounted that steed a murderer. He dismounted it a missionary.

    Christ changed his rebellious heart in a matter of MOMENTS!

    I love Christ's argument: "Saul, Saul why do you persecute ME? It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

    It was an argument for God's sovereign rule over Saul's whole life! "Saul you are naught but my ox that I drive whithersoever I will! Everything you have done in your life has been my will. I used even your slaughter of my people to drive them out of Jerusalem that they might spread my Gospel to Judea and Samaria and the uttermost part of the earth as I commanded them. You have been nothing but my servant your whole life!"

    "Rebel if you will, but you are naught but my ox! You do not hinder my purposes at all- you fulfill them! All you do with your rebellion in your heart is hurt yourself! It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks!"

    With that, Saul called Christ- LORD!

    And he was right, for that is what he IS! Lord of ALL- even the wicked deeds of those who rebel against him.

    All men, saved and lost, are naught but Christ's oxen!

    Blessed be the name of the LORD!
     
    #1 Luke2427, Jan 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2011
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Preach the word Brother. And were it NOT for God's having chosen some, then heaven would have none!:godisgood:
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 23, 2011
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ever wonder why God chose to use a blinding light when his inward "effectual/ irresistible call" would have sufficed?

    Ever wonder why God used a big fish to turn the will of Jonah, when a simple snap of His sovereign irresistible whip would have done the trick?

    Ever considered that God's sovereign intervention in bringing His redemptive message to the world through divinely chosen and inspired prophets and apostles is not necessarily proof that he also sovereignly and effectually dictates the response of those who hear that message?

    Ever wonder if suggesting that Paul's effectual call to apostleship is a model for how all believers are saved undermines the unique and divine nature of Paul's call and discounts his authority as an apostle? I mean, if we have all been "set aside from birth," and "called by God" in the same effectually divine manner as Paul, then what sets him apart to claim authority as an apostle of Christ?

    Just wondering if that had ever been considered. Thanks
     
    #3 Skandelon, Jan 23, 2011
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I'm so thankful that God never called me His ox, but instead calls me His child!

    :godisgood:
     
    #4 Amy.G, Jan 23, 2011
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    #5 Grasshopper, Jan 23, 2011
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  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Grasshopper - Every time I see your name I say it in my head....."grasshahppah!!
     
    #6 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  7. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    Ever wonder why people take theological truths and make light of them with sensless questions, in direct violation of 2 Tim 2:23?
     
    #7 TomVols, Jan 23, 2011
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Ah yes to all your questions & a Gazillion of my own questions as well. Thats why I'm awed by Him. Read Job again. After God starts talking to Job & Job then stops asking. Job is delighted that God even speaks to him. Note Job never does get answers. Thats us. Always looking for answers when we cant even begin to fathom Him. However we try, with our Pea Brains we try to figure it all out. I love Job's answers to things though.....The Lord Gives & He Takes, blessed be the Lord. IMHO, thats how we should be with Him.:wavey:
     
    #8 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 23, 2011
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Master Po I seek not to know the answers, but to understand the questions.
     
    #9 Grasshopper, Jan 23, 2011
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Oh, you batted that one right out a da park!

    But why not go for a bunt & have the guy on 3rd steal home? Wasnt that against logic....no sense at all, at all! :tongue3:
     
    #10 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 23, 2011
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    My beliefs

    I believe that the stoning of Stephen and the words he said was already working on his heart. That was all he needed was what Jesus did, to straighten his path. Saul before He become Paul, by faith went to Damascus and waited.
     
    #11 psalms109:31, Jan 23, 2011
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No sir. I am perfectly satisfied that God does as he wills at all times.
    If he wishes to make Saul willing by a blinding light, then he may certainly do so. If he wishes to make him willing by submersing him in a sea of spaghetti he may do that as well.

    The point is that God made him willing. His means are strictly up to him.

    He made you willing one day to yield to Christ, probably not by a blinding light and a mighty voice from heaven, but in his own way.

    That is what God does. It is his prerogative to do it howsoever he pleases.

    The above answer suffices, I believe for this good question, but I will add the words of The Hornet Song on the matter:

    Yes, I considered then the whole ten years or so that I was a devout Arminian- a Free Will Baptist preacher.

    Fortunately, I thought on through my positions and found them illogical and unscriptural.

    That God worketh all things after the council of his own will is plain throughout Scripture. That includes the response of men.

    Now, men still respond howsoever they choose, mind you, and they are held fully accountable for their motives for those choices, but God controls the response no less than he controls the tide or the turning of a river.

    Proverbs 16:1- The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

    No sir, nor do I recall doing any of that.

    You are more than welcome. I am told that you are a real Arminian, which is a great relief. So many on here actually have NO systematic theology. Arminianism, though I disagree with it, is consistent and arguable. It makes sense and is based on fair interpretations of numerous texts. If I have been misinformed just disregard these remarks.
     
    #12 Luke2427, Jan 24, 2011
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    He has called you worse than his ox, Amy. In fact, he has called you a child of the devil, a wretch and vile, one whose righteousnesses are nothing but filthy rags; he has said that his fierce wrath did abide on you, and that you never did any good whatsoever before he saved you.

    And frankly, it is a privilege to be his ox or his clay or his slave.

    Thank God we are his children due to his matchless, unspeakable grace, but to presume upon it is not good.
     
    #13 Luke2427, Jan 24, 2011
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    excellent!
     
    #14 Luke2427, Jan 24, 2011
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I suppose we have an accord then on baptistboard concerning the Sovereignty of God in the salvation of Saul.

    Great!
     
    #15 Luke2427, Jan 25, 2011
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    This is more of an observation than a question:

    We don't know how many people accompanied Saul on his trip to Damascus, but as best I can see, Saul was the only one to whom the Lord Jesus revealed himself. Yes, they all saw a blinding light and they all heard a noise, but only Saul understood what the voice was saying (in Hebrew).

    In other words, Jesus hid himself from the rest.

    And naturally, only Saul was converted that day.

    I had never really thought about this until Luke started this thread.
     
    #16 Tom Butler, Jan 25, 2011
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  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Where does it say the men with Saul didn't understand the voice?

    The men who were traveling with him stood speechless,(L) hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened,(M) he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

    Apparently they heard enough to lead him into Damascus, as Christ had said.

    If Jesus was completely hidden from these men, how did they hear and know enough to lead Saul to Damascus? Why would they do this and not immediately imprison Saul as he would have now been one of those they were hunting down? Why did they not return home as their leader was now blind?

    Where does it say out of all of those there only Saul was converted?
     
    #17 webdog, Jan 25, 2011
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  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Please tell me you are not amening a post rebuking senseless questions! :laugh:
     
    #18 webdog, Jan 25, 2011
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Acts 22:8-9 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

    It obviously means that they could not understand the voice since the previous passage says that they did hear the voice.

    They heard the noise it made but not the words which it spake.
     
    #19 Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011
  20. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    As I understand it Saul didn't become Paul. It wasn't like the case of Abram's name being changed by God to Abraham. He is still referred to as "Saul" in Acts 13.7:

    who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
    ​

    Saul was his Jewish name name, and Paul his Roman name, for the bible makes clear that he was a Roman citizen.
     
    #20 David Lamb, Jan 26, 2011
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